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Killer VS Survivor game balance

DevilsDummy DevilsDummy
in Feedback and Suggestions

I don't know if I'm alone in this, if it's just how I typically play or when and where I play from but I prefer playing killer and often play Survivor with friends and family as well as watch friends play both Survivor and Killer and I've noticed a shift as of late towards more killer advantageous game play.
I've also noticed a few mechanics that play drastically in the favor of killers and IMO reward what I consider to be toxic behavior and just sucks the fun out of the game.
some examples of what I'm thinking off, often see and would like to see addressed would be the following.
- camping hook either right under it or within a few meters.
- slugging/tunneling
- downing all remaining survivors, usually done with 2 players remaining
- blocking pallets by standing infront of them during chase
as a killer the games are far to easy, in my case playing as Death Slinger most games I take sweeping wins game after game after game without even putting in effort and it's frankly boring.
as a survivor especially against killers with 1 shot abilities or perks especially trolling or toxic ones is just frustrating and makes you wanna quit the game.
some changes I propose that would IMO help deter these actions and reward more bold gameplay would be the following.
- accelerated unhook bar during camping, possibly a progressive one. currently even standing right under the survivor they hit second hook before being able to unhook and can at that point be slugged. either have the bar accelerate the longer the killer is near or increase the range and pace at which it fills. possibly in case of self unhook with the killer near increase the grace period from 10 seconds to something a smidge longer like 12-15 seconds.
- self pickup, not like the perk but make it so if ALL remaining survivors are downed increase the speed at which the bar fills and/or allow at least 1 survivor to pick themselves up allowing gameplay to continue instead of being forced to lay there till you bleed out or get hooked/killed
- increased wiggle effectiveness, it could just be me but I've never succeeded at wiggling out unless the killer let me and as a killer I've never had someone manage to wiggle out even with no hooks near or getting hooks sabotaged.
- make the ENTIRE pallet hitbox count for the killer and don't allow blocking of it by survivors or killers unless it's via perk. I've noticed it a few times and managed to replicate it as a killer but standing in the center of a pallet up against it prevents it from being thrown, extremely aggravating as a survivor and a neat party trick as a killer but ultimately another factor that makes it way to easy.
- remove the ability for killers to see who's been hooked and how many times, remembering it adds an element of attention and skill for strategy and seeing it not only removes that element but also makes it easier to tunnel survivors if that's what one desires to do. it's become easy to even without thinking pick off survivors 1 by 1 simply by seeing the number of hooks they have or avoiding hooking certain players almost toying with them to prolong the game and gather bloodpoints however the fun at least for me just isn't there.

I'd love to hear if others share these opinions or if it's just me and what some alternative proposed behavioral issues on both killers and survivors might be along with possible solutions

Tagged: KillersSurvivors

Comments

  • kimbusik kimbusik

    i did not read your comment but i saw stuff like slugging. I will tell you 1 thing about the game. What ever you play. Killer or survivor. There are no rules. It’s a game about killing and surviving. If people tell you that you are not allowed to do that then dont listen to them. Things that are not allowed are the ones that shows when you press report button. For example cheating. Afk or trolling. Cursing etc etc.

  • DevilsDummy DevilsDummy

    @kimbusik said:

    i did not read your comment but i saw stuff like slugging. I will tell you 1 thing about the game. What ever you play. Killer or survivor. There are no rules. It’s a game about killing and surviving. If people tell you that you are not allowed to do that then dont listen to them. Things that are not allowed are the ones that shows when you press report button. For example cheating. Afk or trolling. Cursing etc etc.

    I'd suggest reading a full post before commenting cause I'm not saying slugging isn't allowed or that killers aren't allowed to do it, I primarily play killer. I'm saying the current way the game is setup punishes killers and survivors for being daring and rewards slugging and camping which makes it IMO boring AF as a killer and frustrating as a survivor. there is also a point on the killer being able to see the amount of hooks per player which just makes slugging and tunneling even easier instead of it being a strategy that requires some mental effort keeping track of who you've hooked and how many times.

  • Starrseed Starrseed

    Ok so I will try to go at this point by point.

    • I am fairly certain the progression gets faster the longer the killer is there
    • If the killer has everyone down the survivors get the option to abandon without a penalty which means you don't have to wait out till he hooks or you are bleed out. Why should you get a pickup when the killer pulls a good play?
    • The wiggle mechanic was never meant as a means to escape the killer on a regular basis. It only exists so the killer has to eventually hook you cause you don't bleed out on his shoulder and to make sure he can't hook you in the basement every time you go down. You only see people wiggle free if the whole team pulls works for it.
    • I don't think that change is needed. Why should the killer not be able to block it from being thrown? When he enteres deep enough into the pallet for you to not be able to throw it you did not react fast enough.
    • We see who is hooked because of people going for all plain Dwight lobbys. There is not remembering which standard Dwight you already hooked. People that tunnel just go for the meg with the red top they don't look at the hooks of that survivor cause they know who they target except if you have people going for the same plain survivor and even that doesn't work anymore because we can see who we are chasing on the HUD
  • DevilsDummy DevilsDummy

    @Starrseed said:

    Ok so I will try to go at this point by point.

    • I am fairly certain the progression gets faster the longer the killer is there
    • If the killer has everyone down the survivors get the option to abandon without a penalty which means you don't have to wait out till he hooks or you are bleed out. Why should you get a pickup when the killer pulls a good play?
    • The wiggle mechanic was never meant as a means to escape the killer on a regular basis. It only exists so the killer has to eventually hook you cause you don't bleed out on his shoulder and to make sure he can't hook you in the basement every time you go down. You only see people wiggle free if the whole team pulls works for it.
    • I don't think that change is needed. Why should the killer not be able to block it from being thrown? When he enteres deep enough into the pallet for you to not be able to throw it you did not react fast enough.
    • We see who is hooked because of people going for all plain Dwight lobbys. There is not remembering which standard Dwight you already hooked. People that tunnel just go for the meg with the red top they don't look at the hooks of that survivor cause they know who they target except if you have people going for the same plain survivor and even that doesn't work anymore because we can see who we are chasing on the HUD

    hmm, I see what you're thinking and on some points I agree and didn't think about it that way but others I have to disagree at least partially.
    - the progress bar for hooking does progress faster the longer and closer the killer is however not nearly fast enough IMO, even if the killer is under the hook you're on your second hook before you can unhook and being just a few meters out means you might very well die before you can unhook. if you're lucky you have a good team and can get unhooked but in many cases at least in my experience you're either left to die or everyone becomes downed when attempting to help.
    - downing everyone can be a good play especially when done in quick succession over a great area, however when playing survivor especially as the last two it's insanely frustrating to have the killer down one survivor and just leave them while hunting for the others or camping the downed person waiting for someone to come and attempt to revive them. ESPECIALLY when it happens game after game after game after game without fail. being able to self pickup when all survivors are downed would mean the killer can still down everyone but they have to be quick about it and it requires more skill, currently at least for me playing as a killer I find it far to easy and often boring.
    on the Abandon option it is a nice to have but one doesn't always want to Abandon either cause there's still a chance, cause you really dislike bots or cause you're playing with someone. it's a nice feature to have against troll killers but ultimately it doesn't address the problem.
    - I never considered the wiggle was only there to prevent basement or constant carrying and it is a fair point but I do still believe it could be a tiny bit more effective, not by some massive margin just 2 or 3 clicks less since currently you can sabotage 1 or 2 hooks or go for a far hook and still not wiggle out though it's a fairly minor point.
    - I guess the daring play to go for blocking a pallet is fair though I feel like the margin is in favor of the killer. the area of which the pallet hits the killer while still being able to be thrown is tiny and well within striking distance to the survivor, I'm admittedly not a very good survivor but I do still find it quite difficult to get a good pallet strike since the killer has to be close enough to get hit, not so close that they block it and will often hit you in the process which is annoying but fine if you're uninjured but if you're already injured or facing someone who can 1 hit down it just makes the pallets feel mostly useless. when playing as a killer I've found myself just not even being careful around the pallets since I can just hit the probably already injured survivor or step in to block it.
    - this last point I fail to understand the logic, if all survivors look the same then this just enables tunneling and slugging since the killer now knows who has how many hooks and we know which one we're chasing and if survivors look different it's a useless feature added that just lets you track who you've hooked and how many times. IMO it does nothing but remove from the skill element of the game, helps people who wanna tunnel and slug and removes the ability for players to counter it by all having the same character and outfit.

  • Lexilogo Lexilogo

    accelerated unhook bar during camping, possibly a progressive one

    I think this is how the Resolve meter already works.

    self pickup, not like the perk but make it so if ALL remaining survivors are downed […] allow at least 1 survivor to pick themselves up

    I appreciate that slugging can be aggravating and it should be kept under control/try to make it more interesting on the Survivor side instead of aggravating and boring, but it should be part of the game. It provides Killers an important tactical choice when downing Survivors. This would essentially delete slugging as a strategy, except in situations where you're leaving a single Survivor downed for additional pressure.

    increased wiggle effectiveness

    Wiggling out is not supposed to happen often. I think this is a classic game design mistake of thinking because you don't see a situation happen often, it must be a pointless feature of the game and that's a problem that needs fixing. No, wiggling out is only supposed to happen if a Killer misplays, and/or a Survivor team puts effort into making it happen. That's exactly how it should be. If you think wiggling should be better, IMO you should be suggesting buffing its related Perks rather than buffing basekit wiggling.

    make the ENTIRE pallet hitbox count for the killer and don't allow blocking of it by survivors or killers unless it's via perk […] standing in the center of a pallet up against it prevents it from being thrown

    I personally don't see pallet hitboxes being too small, and don't understand when the situation you describe of a Killer standing in the center of a pallet hitbox to prevent it being thrown would actually matter? If you're close enough to drop the pallet in that situation, you're also close enough for the Killer to hit you, so if anything, the game's saving you from wasting a pallet, right? Let me know if I'm just not seeing the vision though.

    remove the ability for killers to see who's been hooked and how many times

    IIRC this is how it used to work when the hook state UI was implemented. It doesn't do anything about hard tunnelling where the Killer is almost exclusively focusing on one person though, it punishes Killers who are spreading out hooks, might have multiple people on death hook at once, and might forget which ones. I personally think this is an instance where the game should be designed around giving Killers this info, and trying to make sure forcing Survivors out ASAP is no longer a winning strategy, rather than obscuring it.

  • DevilsDummy DevilsDummy

    @Lexilogo said:

    accelerated unhook bar during camping, possibly a progressive one

    I think this is how the Resolve meter already works.

    self pickup, not like the perk but make it so if ALL remaining survivors are downed […] allow at least 1 survivor to pick themselves up

    I appreciate that slugging can be aggravating and it should be kept under control/try to make it more interesting on the Survivor side instead of aggravating and boring, but it should be part of the game. It provides Killers an important tactical choice when downing Survivors. This would essentially delete slugging as a strategy, except in situations where you're leaving a single Survivor downed for additional pressure.

    increased wiggle effectiveness

    Wiggling out is not supposed to happen often. I think this is a classic game design mistake of thinking because you don't see a situation happen often, it must be a pointless feature of the game and that's a problem that needs fixing. No, wiggling out is only supposed to happen if a Killer misplays, and/or a Survivor team puts effort into making it happen. That's exactly how it should be. If you think wiggling should be better, IMO you should be suggesting buffing its related Perks rather than buffing basekit wiggling.

    make the ENTIRE pallet hitbox count for the killer and don't allow blocking of it by survivors or killers unless it's via perk […] standing in the center of a pallet up against it prevents it from being thrown

    I personally don't see pallet hitboxes being too small, and don't understand when the situation you describe of a Killer standing in the center of a pallet hitbox to prevent it being thrown would actually matter? If you're close enough to drop the pallet in that situation, you're also close enough for the Killer to hit you, so if anything, the game's saving you from wasting a pallet, right? Let me know if I'm just not seeing the vision though.

    remove the ability for killers to see who's been hooked and how many times

    IIRC this is how it used to work when the hook state UI was implemented. It doesn't do anything about hard tunnelling where the Killer is almost exclusively focusing on one person though, it punishes Killers who are spreading out hooks, might have multiple people on death hook at once, and might forget which ones. I personally think this is an instance where the game should be designed around giving Killers this info, and trying to make sure forcing Survivors out ASAP is no longer a winning strategy, rather than obscuring it.

    the resolve meter works yes just far to slowly, slugging and tunneling can be a tactic but it's also far to easy and has become a meta instead of an option, I didn't actually think about perks for wiggle and boosting those could indeed be the middle ground I'm wanting to see in the game, pallets might just be subjective but I find them near useless as a survivor and not threatening as killer, I don't see how seeing the hooks punishes killers for spreading them.

  • Elan Elan

    Survivors need to be nerfed drastically and their communication should be buffed via some stickers, emotes or ingame quotes.

    New killers are mostly fine, other killers should receive mid to small buffs and some in game mechanic should be implemented for both sides.

    Killer:

    → Hooking survivor increase charges of all remaining gens by 2 %

    → Hooking survivor reveales all survivor auras out of 40m range

    Survivor

    → Escaping a chase without being hit grants 5 % bonus to healing, cleansing, opening chest, unhooking.

    → Repairing a generator reveals aura of killer to every survivor for 3s

  • Anti051 Anti051

    @DevilsDummy said:

    I don't know if I'm alone in this, if it's just how I typically play or when and where I play from but I prefer playing killer and often play Survivor with friends and family as well as watch friends play both Survivor and Killer and I've noticed a shift as of late towards more killer advantageous game play.
    I've also noticed a few mechanics that play drastically in the favor of killers and IMO reward what I consider to be toxic behavior and just sucks the fun out of the game.
    some examples of what I'm thinking off, often see and would like to see addressed would be the following.
    - camping hook either right under it or within a few meters.
    - slugging/tunneling
    - downing all remaining survivors, usually done with 2 players remaining
    - blocking pallets by standing infront of them during chase
    as a killer the games are far to easy, in my case playing as Death Slinger most games I take sweeping wins game after game after game without even putting in effort and it's frankly boring.
    as a survivor especially against killers with 1 shot abilities or perks especially trolling or toxic ones is just frustrating and makes you wanna quit the game.
    some changes I propose that would IMO help deter these actions and reward more bold gameplay would be the following.
    - accelerated unhook bar during camping, possibly a progressive one. currently even standing right under the survivor they hit second hook before being able to unhook and can at that point be slugged. either have the bar accelerate the longer the killer is near or increase the range and pace at which it fills. possibly in case of self unhook with the killer near increase the grace period from 10 seconds to something a smidge longer like 12-15 seconds.
    - self pickup, not like the perk but make it so if ALL remaining survivors are downed increase the speed at which the bar fills and/or allow at least 1 survivor to pick themselves up allowing gameplay to continue instead of being forced to lay there till you bleed out or get hooked/killed
    - increased wiggle effectiveness, it could just be me but I've never succeeded at wiggling out unless the killer let me and as a killer I've never had someone manage to wiggle out even with no hooks near or getting hooks sabotaged.
    - make the ENTIRE pallet hitbox count for the killer and don't allow blocking of it by survivors or killers unless it's via perk. I've noticed it a few times and managed to replicate it as a killer but standing in the center of a pallet up against it prevents it from being thrown, extremely aggravating as a survivor and a neat party trick as a killer but ultimately another factor that makes it way to easy.
    - remove the ability for killers to see who's been hooked and how many times, remembering it adds an element of attention and skill for strategy and seeing it not only removes that element but also makes it easier to tunnel survivors if that's what one desires to do. it's become easy to even without thinking pick off survivors 1 by 1 simply by seeing the number of hooks they have or avoiding hooking certain players almost toying with them to prolong the game and gather bloodpoints however the fun at least for me just isn't there.

    I'd love to hear if others share these opinions or if it's just me and what some alternative proposed behavioral issues on both killers and survivors might be along with possible solutions

    It sounds like you don't have any experience against competent survivors.

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