Laluzi
Laluzi
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- Laluzi
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@Witas said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2677558#Comment_2677558
Yeah, I know, my question was about why it sometimes doesn't deal damage despite the survivor being really close to the crow, like 100% in range of damage.
If they're extremely close, it's possible they collided with the crow before you fired it. This swarms them and resets their swarm timer, but never deals damage. The hitbox is kind of generous, so this wouldn't surprise me.
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This is also an issue with Demogorgon's shred. There are several tree branches where you'll collide despite them being ostensibly above you. I've noticed the one in the OP's clip and also one that tends to spawn at a TL wall.
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
If a survivor is close, it deals damage.
If a survivor is far away, they get "swarmed".
If a survivor is "swarmed" and is hit again, it deals damage.
This, but also a small obstacle like a burn barrel will switch the crow's flight path from 'damage' to 'swarm.' To damage an unswarmed survivor, you need to hit them in a straight line at a short distance (you'll have a visual smoky ink trail as an indicator for how far this goes) with no obstructions.
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Oni and Plague would be pretty terrifying.
Artist plus Freddy isn't that strong, but have fun trying to do gens.
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God, I despise the 'hide within 10m of the killer for 30 seconds in one game' challenges. There's lots of bad survivor challenges, but this one is the absolute worst. The only non-idiot way to get them is to wait for a farming killer. Even a facecamping killer seems like prime bait for this challenge, but if you're running in circles and pointing at them, or staring at them from behind a rock, then you're not doing gens and you're probably going to kill the rest of your team. It's one thing to hide while the killer inspects your gen, but getting 30 seconds in one normal game is unrealistic and what happens is that players have to follow the killer around for minutes because ten meters is so damn short. Then you have the one that wants 60 seconds...
And totem cleansing challenges just went from 'meh' to sandbagging between boons and Pentimento, and that's not counting their numbers, which were nutty and took many games to complete even before cleansing dulls turned into a bad idea.
Then you get challenges like Blood Debt which encourage survivors to race other people to saves and unhook stupidly because they need to save that particular player, damn it. Same with 'unhook survivors in the killer's TR with BT twice in one match.' Just because you have BT does not make a save a good idea.
I've opened exit gates before I should have and sandbagged teammates to get protection hits all in the name of rift challenges. I've thrown the game, pallet camped, and wasted so many pallets trying to get stuns-in-one-games done, I've sat there and pointed at the killer while they ran towards me for Tome 6. Challenges that encourage gimmicky gameplay are bad for the game, especially on the survivor end of things (because the killer can knowingly throw their own game and it only affects them, but survivors have three other people reliant on their decisions.)
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Pain Resonance is very good at killing gens if teammates are hook trading or just generally doing a bad job in chases. I've had a couple games where it combined with Ruin brought gens to a standstill.
The only downside to the perk is that scourge hook generation isn't consistent, and it tends to be weaker on indoor maps due to increased inflexibility in which hooks you can reach.
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Today I played a game against a decked-out flashlight Elodie. She didn't manage to flashlight save, but she tried constantly, and she clicked whenever I was chasing someone else. I ignored her, or hit her when she was close enough that it wasn't a detour.
She wasn't overtly BMing me, though (no tbagging and clicking at pallets, only when she was trying to divert me from her teammates), and she was a decent looper and I appreciated that she'd run interference and try to save her teammates, which is something I wish my teammates would do in solo queue. So when I down her on death hook, I consider it for a bit, and decide to leave her be. Later, when I'm downing someone else on death hook, I evade her flashlight save, stop (I am right next to a hook), and then look directly at her, unmoving, so she can get the save she's been hungering for all game. She runs right in front of me afterwards and I ignore her to go somewhere else.
Cue the exit gates, where she and the guy I blatantly let her save tbag and click me until I chase them out. I say something along the lines of "Yeesh, no good deed goes unpunished" in the chat and unsurprisingly get "LOOOOL UR SO MAD"
The moral of the story is that I was stupid to extend any benefit of the doubt to a clicky flashlight user. :B
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Killer: NOED. It just feels a little too mean for my tastes, and I'm not interested in the salt it generates. Nor does it fit my playstyle. The only killer challenge I don't have completed (and isn't linked to a killer I don't own yet) is the one that wants me to use NOED. I'll have to do it eventually, but just... not now.
Survivor: Dead Hard, because I forget I have it most of the time, and DS because it's too dependent on the killer's playstyle and a random lag spike renders the perk worthless.
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@Sonzaishinai said:
Problem is that it's a pretty hard fix. Slugging is needed for pressure sometimes.
Making the bleed out timer faster (even if optional) is just going to be used by salty people to get out of a match like hook suicedes work. And it still wastes your time. The difference between 2 minutes and 4 isn't that much. It's still going to be and feel like bm.
Killing all survivors when there is no way to get back up could deny some unbreakable plays and i don't think they'll be able to program it so it looks for those perks. The killer will know you have a way of picking yourself up if the game doesn't end.
It's a pretty tricky thing to fix and it doesn't happen often enough to be high on the priority list i imagine
It seems simple enough to fix for me. Survivors can't voluntarily bleed out when the following conditions are true.
-Any survivor still present in the game is outside of the downed/hooked state
-Any hooked survivor is in the first phase and can attempt to escape
-Any survivor still has an active and unused Unbreakable, Soul Guard, No Mither, or Decisive Strike.
-Voluntary bleed-outs count as a kill for the killer for the purpose of emblems, challenges, and score events.
If the whole team is downed with no hope of getting back up, or you're the last player left, you can suicide out of the game. If there's still a chance the match can continue, the game won't let you do that.
I debated adding Power Struggle to the conditions, but that's useless if the killer never picks you up and would prevent the team from being able to exit if one player had it. Same with Deliverance; I decided it was covered enough by the net of a player being in the first hook phase. DS times out. And if people are too far from a hook and can wiggle off if picked up, that's probably why they're being bled out, and they have the option to simply stop wasting the killer's time by crawling closer to a hook.
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Hey, and welcome in!
Seems like we have a bit in common - I'm also a Plague main and I try to avoid camping and tunneling (if someone gets unhooked in front of me, I try to give them a grace period, and if the unhooker disappears and I need pressure, I just knock the player down and leave them for someone to pick back up), though I massive SMH when someone unhooks in front of me, or leads me halfway across the map to unhook a player. Sometimes I'll go after survivors specifically because I think they're awful teammates and it'd be a shame if they escaped.
I also like giving hatch, but any BMers have to end the trial on a hook. You wanted my attention, now enjoy it.
Neas scare me, but I love each and every Ace. They're such chads, whether they're bringing me random Ace In The Hole'd items or looping the killer for two and a half minutes while that cocky smirk never falters. And hot damn, but his cosmetics...
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@FrndlyChnswSalzmn said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2677257#Comment_2677257
If you are losing badly, NOED isn't likely to change that, if it even activates. At most you'll get 1 more kill unless the Survivors are mega bad or you get very lucky. It's a win more perk.
That is extremely incorrect. NOED does nothing if you're already in a winning position; the survivors should never power the gates, or there should only be one left at that point anyway and so they're already dead if you find them. NOED's most common function is to give a killer with one or no kills by the endgame one or two more guaranteed kills, or a whole team wipe if the survivors are altruistic. You'll only get no kills out of NOED if the survivors are coordinated, someone has BT, and players know where dull totems are, so it's less effective in higher ranks. Otherwise, it turns the game from 'losing badly' to 'respectable outcome.'
It's a comeback/second chance perk, not a win-more perk. I don't care about NOED either way, but if it's a bad perk, it's because a successful killer never needs it.
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@FrndlyChnswSalzmn said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2677166#Comment_2677166
Nope. it makes it so if the gates are open you leave or risk being trapped. if you get trapped, wait it out for a minute. Not hard. It's actually pretty bad as a perk; a win more perk like NOED.
I'm talking about waiting until the timer is half down and then hooking. It's easy to bait it with altruistic teams.
And what? Say what you will about NOED, but it's not a win more perk... NOED explicitly has no effect if you win the game before the end.
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@FrndlyChnswSalzmn said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2677184#Comment_2677184
Hostile? It's a fact; if you tried to do something and failed, you weren't good enough. No insult is intended, that's just how it is.
"You get what they give you?" Bullshit. You get downed and sacrificed, yeah. But people don't deserve to get BMed in an explicitly time-wasting way for just playing the game.
4-minute bleedouts is the equivalent of survivors wasting the whole EGC to tbag at the gates, except the survivor doesn't have the option of chasing everyone out to speed up the process. The only purpose it serves is BMing.
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- Plague: My girl. Loved her before her buff and now she just feels wonderful to play. I'm comfortable with both sides of her gameplay; either she makes survivors super easy to track, which is great for my half-blind ass, or she rains the pain with the best ranged ability in the game.
- Wraith: Even with his nerf and the prevalence of CoH putting strain on him, I still really enjoy his gameplay. He's not a killer that wastes time looking for people, between the high map transversal and the lack of warning people get to step away from their gens and hide. Even on a map like Red Forest, you don't really feel the crippling size and gen spread. It's not hard to force pallets with him and create deadzones due to his high speed; windows are his greatest enemy. Also, he's got a bing bong and that's great.
- Nemesis: I just love this big stompy boi. His anti-loop is a quick draw and very easy to use, moreso than Pyramid Head or Deathslinger. And while the zombies are nice for meme plays or occasionally blocking that very important door, their best aspect is the passive map tracking telling you where survivors are and aren't.
- Pig: She's not very strong, and her stealth mode needs some major QoL, but her slowdown is fun and oinking at survivors is even more fun. The fact that survivors will randomly crouch up to me and try to boop the snoot is more wholesome than I can stand.
I'm not sure where Artist ranks yet, but she might be up here; I'm having lots of fun playing her, mainly for the passive tracking.
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I'm still seeing Spirits and they're doing fine. And MDR is still busted; it doesn't matter that you know what direction she's coming from if she's moving at the speed of a freight train.
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Blood Warden doesn't need a buff. It's extremely good at what it does. Resetting the timer makes it even more braindead to be able to lock survivors in until the end of endgame collapse.
The only issue with Blood Warden that makes it risky to run is the prevalence of 99ing the gates; it's a perfect perk otherwise.
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Watch her while she's setting up her crows so that you can avoid their trajectory. She's a killer where looking behind you is key. You want to repel crows as soon as possible (if you're swarmed, she can damage you through walls and at long range), but be aware that you can't vault or drop pallets while repelling, so sometimes you need to delay the action for a second.
If you're at a loop and she starts placing crows, leave. If you stay at the loop, she'll easily snipe you. This is also true if you run through a pallet and she stops to set up a crow. Don't drop the pallet, run - and go sideways so she doesn't have a straight shot on you.
Her crows can't deal with elevation changes unless she shoots them up a ramp, so you can often waste her setup by changing floors.
Don't heal at hook. The Artist has a lot of passive tracking and it's common for her to send crows towards gens and hooks to check for targets. If a crow narrowly passes by you, she'll still know you're there even if you don't get swarmed.
However, you can use all of this to trick her into not checking an area. If you move several meters away from a hook or gen, and she fires crows at the object of interest, you won't show up and she may assume the area is empty. With gens especially, you can step away from the gen as soon as you hear her setup noise, then return after the birds fly past. (There's no need to do this if she's using her power while chasing someone, but if she's not currently in chase, she'll likely be checking gens.) And if you get long-ranged swarmed with crows, you can still trick her by moving in one direction, repelling, and then moving in a different direction after two seconds. She'll see the swarm aura moving one way and may move to intercept you, only for you to be nowhere in sight.
Lastly, this is temporary advice, but leave dull totems alone. For now, a lot of people are doing Adept Artist or trying out her new perks, so you're pretty likely to get Pentimento'd if you start cleansing them.
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@Myla said:
Still stupid that Coup de grace is based on tokens.
While it's really limiting, that's not even the worst part of Coup. The worst part of Coup is that there's no way to toggle its activation and it's not a use-on-command perk, so you're not allowed to lunge unless you want to use one of your extremely limited tokens. If you play normally, you're going to burn the perk without ever getting value from it, or you're going to get minimal value by using the extended lunge when you would have had the down in a second anyway, instead of using them to make those hits where the survivor would have reached the window or a pallet would have been dropped in your face. You're playing with a handicap just to keep your stacks for when you need them.
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@Feyd said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2676361#Comment_2676361
Either lying or being facetious. You all do want 4k every game. Any perk that helps survivors not die immediately is considered completely broken, no matter how effective it may actually be in practice.
You are the one ignoring skill. If survivor better than killer, survivor should win chase. Smart killer goes for weaker prey. If killer is better, he should get a quick hook and move on. In fact, survivor skill already means less, because you just have to pick off the weaker survivors until it no longer matters how good the survivor wins. EGC completely nullifies the survivor's skill in the end if you pick off all his friends. Luck determines who finds hatch first, and whether the gates are close enough to guarantee killer victory.
The game is already heavily in killer's favor. It's why perks like BT and DS even exist. Because it's very easy to down trash survivors and leave the good ones screwed, unable to do anything except go do inevitably, sooner or later.
Yeah, you're really not debating in good faith here. I see the core of your point, but it's buried beneath layers of sweeping generalizations that are trivially easy to break in half and those generalizations don't paint you in an honest light.
I play killer to have fun chases, to earn an actually reasonable amount of bloodpoints, and be able to recognize memey situations as they happen, and when I'm not trying to bring my MMR back up, I usually let survivors go at the end unless they do something to un-earn it. I like playing killer more than survivor. Bam. Automatically you're wrong about All Killers.
We'll Make It, Deliverance, Adrenaline, Detective's Hunch, Windows of Opportunity, and Lithe are strong perks that help survivors not die that nobody ever complains about. Bam. Automatically you're wrong about "everything good is broken and needs to be nerfed." I could explain how the vast majority of killers disagree that most other strong survivor perks are a problem, with Dead Hard and CoH being the only ones players consistently take issue with in their current state, but it's easier to just point to the ones literally nobody cares about but are still very much worth running. Still, you can say killer main bias all you like, but whenever I see someone make a thread whining about BT/Unbreakable/DS, the overwhelming response they get is "just don't tunnel/slug/camp."
A survivor that's better than a killer should be able to hold out for a long time (I disagree on indefinitely simply because that isn't balanced in an asymmetrical game, but long enough that committing to bad chases means the killer loses the game, yes), but the nature of a chase isn't just looping. Different killers require different strategies and a killer isn't invalid, unfair, or in immediate need of a nerf if their counterplay isn't standard looping. You complain that it's taking skill out of the equation, but I'd argue inflexibility is unskilled in and of itself, and trash talking 'holding W' just makes you sound petulant that you can't pull your preferred strategy in every game. This has been a thing in the game since Huntress. Nurse, even, though she's a terrible example. Still. It's not new.
I also believe that for the killers who don't have anti-loop tools, it's still not necessarily a matter of skill - I mean, it is, but a killer that plays everything right will still spend an unreasonable amount of time in chase against an equally skilled survivor simply because most maps provide enough resources that, when used perfectly, can stall the killer for deleterious amounts of time, and the killer starts off in a losing position when they need to remove these resources before they can get downs. Which is why 3 gens popping in the first chase is such a common phenomenon. It's often not possible to catch the first survivor earlier than that if they know how to run tiles and the tiles have enough visibility that mindgames are only effective if survivors aren't on their best game. Killer gameplay is very reliant on survivor mistakes; it's why SWFs cause so much fuss. But a survivor that makes minimal mistakes is a difficult opponent to crack regardless of how skilled you are and it comes down to brute force, which - your claim that if you can't down someone in 30 seconds, you suck as a killer? I disagree. If the survivor goes from healthy to downed in under 30 seconds, and they weren't instadowned or caught in a dead zone, they either messed up or they're below average.
Anyway, what I was getting at is that the increased prevalence of anti-loop killers feels like it's in response to this continued failure of map design.
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Like, this post is incredibly inflammatory and overwrought, but at the same time... OP ain't wrong.
I have 2000 hours in the game. Just today, I've gone against several obvious baby ash rank survivors and I've gone against a one-perk ash rank Plague, who got 1 hook before gens got done and tbagged out the exit. Say what you will about the old matchmaking system, but it at least kept new players in their own bracket.
OP, you might have an unreasonable expectation of gameplay if you expect to dominate every game as killer. Some survivors are probably going to escape. But it's definitely not unreasonable to ask for games that don't pit you against players with 100x your experience. Learning a side is humiliating and awful when the game decides to throw you face first into Sweatland.
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It is kind of strange that Demo is carrying and hooking survivors. If Demo was running purely on instinct, it'd just be eating everyone.
For that alone, I'd say the Entity has to have either conditioned it or actively commands it.
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@AsherFrost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2675445#Comment_2675445
Billy isn't like the twins and huntress, he very clearly knows right from wrong. He killer his family who imprisoned him and the cops who abused him and used him, but that was it, he idolized superman, and wanted to be good.
I disagree. He did idolize Superman, and he knows how life is supposed to work from the TV, but any idealism he had was broken by his constant abuse and he was disillusioned that a hero never saved him - he had to become his own savior.
His only experience with real people is his family and the corrupt police force that backed them up. He's frightened of people coming to lock him away. It is a very natural assumption that everyone's out to get him. He kills to stay free. I'm not saying Billy isn't a victim, he one hundred percent is, but so are the Twins and they'd still kill without the Entity's influence.
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They're undergoing a long, painstaking search of every locker in the realm. We probably won't get them until the elusive Sleepy Dwight gets stillness crows.
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The obvious counterpart would be Coup de Grace, but the devs seem nervous about making it useful for some reason.
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@Adjatha said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2675521#Comment_2675521
Well good news: They put a zillion extremely loud sound tells (Bubba's scream, PH's earth split, Demo's roar, Spirit's whoosh, etc) in the game to give all survivors info. They put a hook counter into the game to give all survivors info. They put an always-on Obsession in to make the killer unsure if somebody has DS. And, at this point, they're just giving survivors free, cross-map aura vision with Pinhead's box.
So it SURE looks like the game's going the way you want it to. And yet, SOMEHOW, solo queue still isn't fun, SWF is still super broken, and Killer gets less and less fun to play with every patch. Real race to the bottom.
Let's not pretend those crumbs of information you're talking about are anything on what SWFs have.
Solos know:
-When the obsession is being chased
-Everyone's health state: healthy, injured, deeply wounded, downed, hooked, or out of the game
-Where a downed or hooked survivor is
-What hook state each survivor is at
-Certain mapwide or HUD cues give away who the killer is once they start interacting with any survivor (you've alluded to some, but also Deep Wound meaning Legion or Deathslinger, Freddy's sleep timer, Plague's infection, Pinhead's chains, and Twin's Victor-release sound.) By extension, they also get information when certain killers are using their powers (Plague, Oni, and Myers activating their power mode, Artist's crows, chainsaws, Trickster's blades, Ghostface's marked status, Demo's numerous sound cues, Wraith's bell, Deathslinger and Pyramid Head's shots, and screaming giving contextual information vs Doctor or Clown.)
-When a gen gets done and where it was
-Where a boon totem is, and once the totem has been snuffed, that a dull totem exists in that spot (useful for NOED)
-Where the gates are if they're looking in the right direction for a second after the last gen pops
SWFs know all of the above, and:
-What perks and addons everyone is running - important for coordinating flashlight/sabo/BT/Head On/pallet saves, and also for letting players with Unbreakable, DS, Power Struggle, or Deliverance do their thing instead of wasting time on them
-Who the killer is as soon as anyone spots them/hears a unique TR/sees a map prop
-Where the killer is for as long as anyone sees them
-The killer's strategy as long as one player has witnessed it - do they kick gens, do they respect pallets, are they camping, are they patrolling one area to try and create a 3-gen later, do they moonwalk in chase, etc
-When and where the killer is chasing someone, and by extension, when it's completely safe to do something else. The chased player also knows where nearby players are and won't unintentionally run the killer into them.
-That the killer has X perk as soon as anyone has noticed its effects
-What every player is doing at any given time, and by extension, if somebody is doing an important task or if somebody needs to stop what they're doing to do the task
-Which gens are at what progress - good for cleaning up gens that are regressing or someone was chased off of, and also for avoiding 3-gens
-Whether a slugged player is ready to be picked up or not
-Where totems are as soon as anyone spots them
-Where killer traps are as soon as anyone spots them
-Which pallets have been used and which areas of the map aren't good to run to
-Where the gates are as long as anyone knows where they are, and also whether either one is ready or not
It's not comparable. I had a game the other day where I didn't know who the killer was until 1 gen was left because someone else was doing an incredible job looping them and the killer was bad enough to commit. Not that I knew they were being chased, because they weren't the obsession. SWFs can play better because they know what's going on and don't make as many mistakes or inefficient plays as solos do.
I'm not saying it would fix everything, but the game could get a lot better if we weren't stuck in this lopsided triangle where solos < killer < SWF and killer needs to be balanced in two different directions at once. Because historically, devs balance for solo, pretend SWF doesn't exist, and killers just get screwed by it when survivors consistently perform at a level game design never accounted for. If they actually accounted for it, killers could be balanced for comms and we wouldn't have these situations where Pig is overperforming and Pinhead gets everything regarding his box nerfed because solos usually fail to deal with it, when it's trivial for even a casual SWF to keep his chain hunts from ever happening.
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@TacitusKilgore said:
I don't think they hate killers. Hate is a strong word. They simply just do not understand the deeper complexities of their game, they have shown many many times that they are incapable of properly play testing their game before release. Whether they do this through sheer incompetence, lack of resources, or pure ignorance is beyond me. But i can very much assure you they do not hate killers. They simply just don't know how to properly balance their game.
This.
I wouldn't consider boons an issue if CoH wasn't so insanely strong. The main issue with CoH is that its power level is equivalent to a hex - something game changing that needs to be removed and carries serious penalties if you leave it ignored - but it's not a hex mechanic and it's infinitely replenishable, so you can't actually remove it. Shadow Step and Exponential are in a different weight class. The most I can say for them is that Shadow Step is very map-dependent and that Exponential was definitely not created with the Twins in mind.
Claiming BHVR hates/loves/coddles/courts the money of either side is just inflammatory rhetoric. It's distressingly common in these parts, and even understandable, but it will always be dishonest. They love this game, they're just not especially good at creating a balanced product and there are a few core issues they either don't want to or don't know how to address which spiral further out of control with every piece of new content that's added to the pile.
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@Kaitsja said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2670577#Comment_2670577
We already seen this with Plague where allowing the killer's power to be controlled by survivors is a bad idea. That's unfortunately the problem with Pinhead. He becomes a glorified 1v1 killer with weak anti-loop capabilities once survivors control the box.
Honestly, a lot of the weaker killers deserve buffs to parts of their kits that feel clunky or weak. If bhvr decided to move away from the Hold W Meta, we could get some stronger killers.
I don't even think Plague is a good comparison. She's a beast when she gets her fountains going, but if survivors deny her her power, then everyone is permanently broken and extremely easy to track by sound and sight. She benefits either way.
Pinhead without chain hunts is a sad mess of a killer who takes all the precision of Nurse for all the power of Clown.
It'd be fantastic if we could see some touchups to underperforming killers, but the killers that are in a bad state aren't always going to be the ones that get tweaked; the data doesn't line up perfectly with realistic performance.
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I'm really fond of her. I'm still working on predicting survivors with her power, which is what you need to get damage states in chase, but her tracking feels wonderful either way. It's amazing being able to check which gens are being worked on or slip in a bit of wallhacks in chase.
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Was it Disturbed Ward or was it Campbell's Chapel? It needs to be the former map, not the latter.
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@GoshJosh said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2675566#Comment_2675566
I’m good with OP’s suggestion. Make it work on special attacks and no longer steal charges over time. It should function like it did before: if not retrieved in the specified time, then it takes away all the charges at that time.
That to me allowed for adequate counterplay. Just sucking charges for a basic attack is too easy.
How could we change Overwhelming Presence? Perhaps it can also drain charges in TR, but at a very slow rate. One charge every 15 seconds, cumulative?
I disagree because your counterplay errs way too much on the side of the survivors, to the point where the perk isn't helpful enough for the killer to have any reason to run. Old Franklins was mainly used for dealing with keys, because it was the only way to delete an item and you could waste a minute and a half camping it out. No other item was worth that crippling time investment and so it generally wasn't used outside that niche - maybe a couple of meme item thief builds with Trapper and Hag. Adept Bubba. It could also hinder flashlight plays, but other than that, it didn't have much purpose and it was more annoying than useful. Which is also what the OP's suggested change is - it turns Franklins into a nuisance that just sort of irritates the survivors without actually providing a beneficial effect to the killer. It also counters White Wards even harder by making it where any down except a failed mend timer causes you to drop your item, so you'll always lose the item on death. I kept a god medkit a few games ago because I died to a chainsaw rather than an M1.
I'd be fine with decreasing the rate at which Franklins eats charges on the ground, or even making it eat a chunk of charges on hit but not continue to drain on the ground, but removing the charge-eating itself is just a hard nerf. The main thing with current Franklins is that if a medkit is on the floor for even one second, and it's not a yellow medkit, you've removed the potential for one full heal from it. This is arguably the main reason it's run when it's not a matter of one item countering your entire killer.
I'm also not really convinced that perks need to have counterplay. There are a great deal of perks out there that just don't, in any shape or form, and most of them are fine - take Plaything, Lucky Break, Surveillance, Iron Will, Sloppy Butcher, Dead Hard (assuming it's being used properly), or STBFL. Other perks only have only minor counterplay, like Sprint Burst, Tinkerer, CoH, or Pain Resonance; there are ways to react to the effect, but you can't stop the bulk of the perk. Franklins in its current state has more counterplay than any of those. Other perks have strict, opportunity-reducing counterplays like 'don't slug' or 'don't heal', and this is kind of where Franklins falls. Either place your item somewhere safe and retrieve it later, use your item ASAP, or just don't rely on having your item.
Overwhelming Presence needs a change, but I'm not sure what form that could take. Having passive item eating in TR could be either really terrible or really good with no in-between, and it's not something that can be universally balanced because it hinges on map size and TR modifiers. Legion with Iri Button or Distressing Doc on The Game/Midwich could go 'haha screw your items' pretty hard, without even the Franklins counterplay of dropping your item when you're about to enter a chase. But if you slow down the drainage effect so that these situations aren't oppressive, the perk becomes so underpowered as to be worthless in more typical situations.
Pretty much any change would be an improvement to it, but making it into a good perk is a different story.
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I like the roar because it lets me oink at people. You haven't Pigged until you've crouched and spammed the ambush button at someone.
It is pretty terrible for ambush attacks unless you're right on top of the player and they're in a dead zone, though. TAG is right that uncrouching and M1ing is a better use of her stealth and likelier to catch people off guard (in addition to applying M1 perks that the charge doesn't.) The charge doesn't last long enough to catch someone at a distance or function as an anti-loop tool unless you're at a short pallet loop and standing on the pallet when you start.
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@TAG said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2675379#Comment_2675379
Reverse BTs are Pig's schtick. Why make it a perk. ;P
New survivor perk: Reverse Bear Trap. After being unsafely unhooked and being hooked again within 60 seconds of entering the dying state, press E when adjacent to the player that unhooked you to afflict them with a Reverse Bear Trap. The survivor must pass 3/5/80 tremendously difficult skill checks or begin a countdown that will cause them to be killed once 180/150/120 seconds have passed.
"Lead the killer to my ######### gen now, Meg." -The Lost Tapes: Nea
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@Adjatha said:
There is nothing you can do to 'buff solo Q experience' that will not also buff SWF an equal or greater amount.
They explicitly stated that they are not interested in different game modes, which means that SWF will never get its own queue. They've specifically said that any buff to solo that does not also buff SWF will be seen as a SWF nerf and will not be done.
The game, as it stands currently, will ALWAYS be harder for survivors who do not form groups before queuing up. If you want SoloQ to improve, you have to push for a change to the game's core design dogma - not wishlist for some new buff that may help solo but will ultimately only make SWF an even more trivial experience than it already is.
There's actually a really simple workaround to this, and it's to focus solo improvement changes on increasing the information the game gives you - some basekit auras, perk visibility for teammates, improved HUD coverage for survivors, a ping system or voice chat. Stuff like that. It doesn't buff SWF because they already have this information and it doesn't nerf them because it's not cutting off any of their options.
You're never going to get changes like 'you can't use this perk if you're in a SWF' or 'solo queue players get more perk slots', but it'd be very feasible to give solos an approximation of what SWFs have if BHVR wasn't so married to the idea that this game is supposed to be played blind (even though in practice, that's only what happens in the weakest player bracket.)
SWFs will always have an edge because they can choose their players and won't get random new/useless/self-serving teammates, but the biggest disparity between solo players and SWFs is that the SWFs make informed decisions and the solos don't, so they run the killer into their teammates on gens, three people or zero people go for the save at once, everyone thinks someone else will get Pinhead's box, nobody knows that Bubba's camping, that 90% gen regresses back to nothing, the player without BT races the player with BT to the unhook and beats them to it, etc.
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It's a problem with boons on 2-floor maps in general. The percentage of the map that's covered by a boon massively increases when maps are smaller stacked floors than one large surface area floor.
Shadowstep is arguably worse when it comes to 2-floor maps because they're all indoor maps anyway and a lack of scratch marks becomes crippling without LoS.
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@Khorzad said:
I have never bought the “touched-entity eyes” theory, as using a single cosmetic design that could be used for any character for any number of reasons is not enough to confirm a theory that at best, is maybe implied for one Killer, Deathslinger.
Also, her power descriptions shows, that like many spirits and onryo from other fictions, she attacks the living as a sort of “revenge against the world” motive:
The Spirit draws her power from their wrath, haunting the living as retribution for her suffering.It doesn’t help that thorough her facial expressions, she is clearly trapped in a state of extreme emotion, so she is not in the state of mind to rationalize her actions.
I think the Entity-touched eyes idea spawns from two killers, not one - the Deathslinger and the Wraith. They're both people that have killed out of rage, and have been pushed to their breaking point, but aren't murderous at their core and there isn't a clear reason why they're attacking indiscriminately in the realm.
OTOH, you have the Hillbilly with the same glowing eyes, and he doesn't need an incentive to kill everyone - he's like the Twins and the Huntress, where his upbringing has caused him to be universally hostile. You also have killers like the Artist who also lack a clear reason for killing survivors, but don't have white eyes (even if she does have altered eyes.) And the Spirit is just something else entirely.
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@WinterFell said:
I don't believe Yun-Jin discovers that the Trickster framed his own kidnapping. She saw the knife on the ground, yes, however it was stated that she knew he always carried one with him for "protection". Its shown I believe to further give her an inkling of doubt as to what's happening.
I think my main problem with her current lore is that any one of these things is a good hook for her backstory and growing distrust of the Trickster, but all of these things on top of each other start to strain credulity. Like, the story in the Archives, while a little overdone on the part of how many 'coincidences' are stacked up against the Trickster, is a good setup for the story they were trying to tell. The incident in her initial lore blurb was a good setup for the story they were trying to tell. Together, and with the murders continuing after Lucas's death, it's a bit much and it changes Yun-Jin's angle from a very human natural doubt cross desire not to believe in the worst possibility, to blatant denial of facts - especially when they both hinge on the tipping point that's supposed to be where she stopped trusting him and started suspecting him. There shouldn't be two different times when this happens.
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I'm not sure this would work simply because killers typically max out brutality over the course of a game anyway, unless it was a very bad game or they were playing with a lot of instadowns. And Sacrifice will be maxed if all survivors die, so tunneling is still more attractive on the bloodpoints front because making the game easier to win means you're more likely to get a perfect game at the end. More bloodpoints is a decent incentive, don't get me wrong, but it would have to award bonus bloodpoints outside of any category to be effective. And you might need to increase the amount a bit to make it attractive, and condition it so that they can't attack the unhooker for bonus points and then get right back on the unhooked player.
I don't think it'd be as effective at changing behavior as forcing them would be, but at the same time, hard preventing tunneling punishes killers who don't abuse the mechanic but end up needing it in a specific situation, so I can't support it unless it's implemented very smartly (which I haven't seen yet.)
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@GoshJosh said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2675163#Comment_2675163
I understand your perspective. I think I’ll just end by saying I would be much more ok with the perk if lobbies worked the same as they do in mobile. Neither side can alter anything, and once all five players are found, the match starts in five seconds. No toxic switching survivors, no killer getting to alter their build based on survivor items, just come as you are ready to play. Along with it showing your item, add-ons, and perks to your teammates in the lobby.
I do understand that, but at the same time, if I get a lobby that looks like newer players, I'll ease up my build and switch out Ruin for something dumb like Iron Maiden. If there's a TTV, I'll bring a meme perk and a cake or BPS. Build reactivity has some nice applications.
It'd also ruin fun solo interactions like another game last night where I was Steve, another random switched to Steve, another random switched to Steve, and then the last random switched to Steve, and Steve Squad was born. Or the other game yesterday where I recognized somebody's DBZ Abridged reference in the pre-game lobby and they spent the whole game trying to save me, then held a short vigil at my death hook when I turned on spectator mode. There's downsides to the non-instant lobbies, but there's upsides, too.
Also, if I'm killer and I get four Blendettes, you can't begrudge me for wanting more detection perks than usual. Or Lightborn when it's four brightly colored TTVs with flashlights. TotH if there's three Mikaelas. There are a couple of killer perks that are useless if they're brought without considering the lobby and Franklins is one of them. Considering there's four killer perks for sixteen survivor perks, I've never found the premeditation aspect to be that unfair.
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@GoshJosh said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2675108#Comment_2675108
Items are important, some survivors base their whole build around the item they are bringing. Why run Streetwise, Built to Last, or any other item enhancing perk when Franklin’s just gives a big middle finger to all of it for one measly basic attack? The reward for the input is out of whack. Plus, you mention Hag. As if most don’t play scummy enough, many run Franklin’s and just spin the scroll wheel when you go back for it.
To me, there’s just a certain stigma that is typically true for killers that run Franklin’s. I’ll be out of that match as fast as I can (being cautious how I say this, as I don’t want to break forum rules).
Hags run Franklins because one dude with a flashlight can completely remove her power. It takes virtually no charge to do and they just have to follow her around at a safe distance. The only other alternative for Hags when they get a bunch of flashlight users is to lobby dodge.
While I see powerful items very often, I very rarely see Streetwise or Built To Last, even with BTL's recent buffs. And honestly? BTL counters Franklins. If your item gets fully depleted because it got left behind in chase, grab it again, jump in a locker, and voila, good as new. If it's a medkit and you don't need to use it yet, you can now perform the old Franklins counter by dropping it somewhere that you can go to retrieve when you need it. The only item that really gets hard countered by Franklins is flashlights because they're meant to be used right next to the killer.
And... sometimes the game just rolls like that. I can bring DS and get a killer that doesn't tunnel. I can bring UB+Flip-Flop+Power Struggle and get a killer that never slugs. I can bring a map and get a killer with no hex perks. Yesterday I brought a gel dressings ranger medkit and the killer was Plague. You are not guaranteed value out of the things you bring.
I dunno. I don't run Franklins as killer (with Hag, I just lobby dodge), but when I end up in a lobby with four items and the killer knocks my item out of my hand the first time I get hit, my main thought is "fair enough." If losing your item mattered to you, then it was a powerful item, and I can't blame the killer for spending a perk slot to deal with it.
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Echoing others that Renrijo's Bloody Glove is a great addon and it shouldn't be changed - it sacrifices some power potential for an extremely strong information game. But the Family Crest is awful and needs a rework.
I hesitate with permanent Blood Fury for a few reasons. One, you activate Blood Fury via normal gameplay as opposed to Myers wasting time stalking - you get big chunks of Blood Fury for hitting people and the rest from injured survivors existing. Two, Blood Fury Oni is stronger than T3 Myers. You have a slightly finickier to hit instadown, but you also get multi-down capabilities (which turns into mega camping potential if picking up a survivor no longer ends Blood Fury), and you have mega speed for the rest of the match. That's really oppressive.
An addon that increased the charge-up time and doubled Blood Fury's duration and/or removed the part where picking up a survivor ends it would be nice, but permanent Blood Fury is a bit nutty.
Another iri idea could be something that greatly improves his steering in Blood Fury, or the AOE range of his Demon Strike ability.
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@GoshJosh said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2674402#Comment_2674402
It's also what makes it cheap. Killers can run Overwhelming Presence for all I care.
Overwhelming Presence is trash. The only item it realistically does anything to is flashlights, and not even that for Hag, the killer who needs Franklins the most.
It's really not that big a deal if you don't get to use your item in a game. The only issue I have with Franklins is that it bypasses White Wards.
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Getting rid of charge reduction ruins Franklins. The perk is meant to counter items, most effective on flashlights and medkits (maps and keys are generally a non-factor and toolboxes are often used at the start of the match.) No, it's not enjoyable to bring an item and be unable to get value out of it, but items aren't the end-all-be-all of the match and knocking an item out of a survivor's hand to be picked up later does virtually nothing for the killer. The medkit is still going to give survivors full heals and the flashlight is going to have as many uses as before, so all your perk has accomplished is waste a little time.
Item removal can be pretty necessary for a killer like Hag or Artist when they encounter a team full of flashlights, or for a split-pressure killer like Wraith when they encounter a full lobby of medkits. Getting rid of charge reduction renders the perk toothless. (Yes, the charge reduction is a recent change, but before that, Franklins would eat your item completely after enough time; it served the same purpose, just less reliably.)
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For me, it's less about the number of kills I get and more about the number of rude survivors that escape. If a clicky-clicky pallet bagger makes it out the gates or hatch, I've lost even if I got a 3k. But I don't mind a 1k or even a 0k if it was an engaging, fairly even game and the survivors were good sports throughout.
Definitely agree with the omnipresent mockery at the gates impinging on the killer's sense of accomplishment and performance, though.
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@Fuzzels said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2672097#Comment_2672097
Nothing changes if nothing is tried.
Ok. Sure.
But the same can be said of doing the same thing over and over And expecting something to change. IE telling people that being rude isn't nice, coming to the forums to complain, and then going back to the game to do it all again.
Like, I'm literally trying to tell you to do something different to change the situation. You said it yourself, no matter what people are going to express some form of harassment. So instead of just complaining about every little thing that bothers you, ignore it and move on with you life because you will never have a solid solution otherwise
...I don't get it. Nothing changes if nothing is tried, ergo, this thread is petitioning for something to be tried and brainstorming what that may be while positing a few initial suggestions so that it's not just empty platitudes. There's a difference between whining about the state of the game and going "this sucks; maybe we could try A, B, or C to mitigate this."
Like I do see your point, but in the same breath I don't think it applies here. Again, I've been in plenty of other PVP games that managed to have better communities than this, and a few that didn't, and my lifespan in the well-mannered ones lasted way longer than the unpleasant ones. Just because a problem can never entirely be excised doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't be treated. To go back to your law analogy, you'll never get rid of criminals, but you can reduce criminal activity through a mix of accurately hunting down perpetrators when crimes are committed, harsh punishments for being caught, and mindful economic reform/welfare to address high-risk populations before they get desperate enough to commit crimes. Or you can just go 'lol anarchy, can't deal with human nature' and shrug whenever crimes happen. I'm not saying getting tbagged is akin to criminal activity, but I am saying that combining a lack of punishment, a lack of accountability, and an already bad environment breeds bad behavior like crazy.
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I might have agreed with this before, when your matchmaking was based off of your pips. But at this point, pips don't matter at all, so all problems with the emblem system have become non-issues.
Besides, you can depip, but you can't actually move down in rank. A long string of bad matches can't damage your ranking and a long string of good matches will carry you upwards like normal.
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Agreed. The new Dwight portrait completely lost the essence of Dwight. Maybe it's those big shadows under his eyes that did a wonderful job of making him look frightened, maybe it's just a je ne sais quois... but whatever it was, his new expression mainly radiates "bwuh?" I miss my Dweet.
I'm cool with new Meg, ambivalent about Adam, and love new David, but Laurie looks awful and Dwight isn't Dweet.
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@dictep said:
Killers less toxic than survs? Do you really think tbag at the end of the match is worse than camp and tunnel you to death??
Whether it's worse is subjective, but as for killers being less toxic than survivors, absolutely. The difference is that a lot of frustrating killer strategies have an actual benefit and therefore can't be assumed to be toxic without other indicators. They're still bad for the game's health and they don't engender any goodwill, but there is a reason people do them beyond to provoke the other player. I hate it when I get tunneled out, but I always try to keep in mind that the killer player is trying to win and I'm probably just unlucky.
One is an attitude issue and the other is an issue with game balance. The latter definitely leads to the former, but while they're related problems, the impetus is different.
Awful to face isn't synonymous with toxic. It's a bit like what StarLost just described. A player flashlight/sabo saving against a killer isn't toxic. A player flashlight/sabo saving against a killer, BMing, and refusing to let the game end in favor of continued annoyance is toxic. A killer proxy camping and tunneling a player isn't toxic, but a killer spending 2 minutes nodding and hitting the hook is toxic, and a killer who facecamps the first survivor they catch to death is probably toxic because the loss from that strategy typically outweighs the gain and it's mostly employed for salt farming. But there is still a chance they're just new and don't know how to play the game. The endgame will usually reveal which one they are.
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@Fuzzels said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2672013#Comment_2672013
Ok, but you are dodging MY point and argument completely. The fact is, your argument of "do this in public" isn't valid because it doesn't happen. And even if it did happen, you more than likely would simply walk away, because who cares about some rando telling things at you? Probably just some drunk or druggie, so move on with your day and forget em, right? Use the same logic in the game. ESPECIALLY since it's just a game. Turn your chat off if you can't handle the scary mean words, and stare at a wall if you are "triggered" by a survivor tbagging.
Also, giving incentives to people to NOT act like dicks is just a fantastic way to show people that if they aren't rewarded for a good deed, they have no reason to do said good deed. Hence, you create even more entitled dicks that think they deserve the world just for existing. Kinda along the same lines of giving out participation awards to kids, and that's led us to the current state of the world where people's feelings get hurt over the tiniest things like a player in a video game crouching repeatedly.
It's simple to belittle this whole thing by framing it like survivors crouching or clicking a flashlight is the actual problem. It's not. Language exists and actions have agreed-upon meanings. I'm not pissed that a player is clicking buttons, I'm pissed because the player is telling me "haha ######### you look at me" when I'm just trying to unwind. I don't care when a survivor is tbagging me when they first spawn in or if they're injured and run up to my gen; I care when they do while they're bodyblocking me into a corner, or wasting my time at the gates, because the message they're conveying is different, obvious, and mocking. And I don't like when a stranger walks up to me and starts mocking me without provocation. Call me 'triggered' if you like for having emotions or being capable of dislike. Some rando being rude doesn't have any sticking power and I'll forget it as soon as the next match starts, but it still ruins my mood while it's going on, and it's the leading cause of me wanting to put down this game. I don't care if I got absolutely destroyed in a match, but I do care when the survivors were sore winners. I don't care if I die, but I do care if I spent four minutes bleeding out while the killer nodded on top of me.
People have suggested limiting flashlight clicking or crouching via mechanics, and while that's something, I doubt it would be effective. A new language of disrespect would form around those restrictions. People are always going to find ways to express themselves, whether that's positive or negative. And because shallow trash-talk is difficult to quantify or measure up against a set of enforceable rules, measures to discourage it have to focus on rewarding players for not doing it. It's not a participation medal (which has always struck me as a straw argument anyway), it's because banning someone for excessive tbagging and saying 'ggez' is fairly idiotic and that's the stick on the other side of this carrot. Rewarding people for a good deed? The good deed has already become the rarity in this environment and any increase in goodwill is still progress towards unravelling this snafu, externally motivated or not. It's not like that's an unusual thing. The whole of society is founded on a careful network of rewards and threats keeping everyone in line. And linking these potential rewards to a thumbs up from other players means it always remains subjective and can't be gamed. Really, the only restriction that needs to be put in place is that players who queue together can't rate each other. But I digress.
I'm here to play a game for fun and my definition of fun doesn't involve people who are being dicks to me for no reason. The only way for these people to ever fit into my definition of fun is for me to bypass annoyance into active sadism (so to where I'm not only unbothered by them, but delighted in any salt I can extract while doing it), and at that point, I'm part of the problem. Honestly, you can say whatever you like about me being too soft and needing to toughen up, but in a game like this, you want more players like me to exist - players that aren't jaded or spiteful and have empathy for the other side whilst playing. When I queue up and either one or four random people are set against me? I'm nothing special, but I'm better for player retention than the guy who's playing Basement Bubba to sublimate his frustration from his last match, or the guy who routinely tunnels at five gens because he's beyond giving a ######### about the other players, or the SWF whose goal is to see just how much hell they can put the killer through in one match, or the solo who screams about every page of the survivor rulebook the killer broke and how everything they played, ran, or did was an undeserved crutch. The ideal match is one where players left having fun, not pissed off at the other players. And the current environment is kind of horrible at that because it encourages players to build grudges until they're 100% done with everyone.
A lot of the players that behave in a provocative manner aren't inherently bad people. Some of them are, and griefing was always their objective. You can't avoid those; they exist in every community in the world, online or not. But others do it because they've gotten frustrated with other players and have reached the point where they expect hostility as a baseline (and so react to it preemptively or perceive it where it doesn't exist), and others have simply learned it from their environment and think it's the cool/funny thing to do. Those people are matching the tone of the community and can be peeled back just by making this environment less awful.
In any case, nothing's going to change if nothing's ever tried.
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@BabuDweet said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2672013#Comment_2672013
I'm not justifying but being realistic. There are ######### people and to actually try and act like you can take that away is just not realistic.
It's not a millennial thing, why even say that?
If you're older you should have enough sense that people are just ######### sometimes and there's nothing that can change that.
The point is that some people look to a frustrating culture and go 'this sucks, can we change that?', and other people look at a frustrating culture and go 'not only is this inevitable, but if you're bothered by it, you're the loser and you need to get over it.'
There's very obviously an issue with player nastiness in this game, and while the issue can never be entirely expunged, it can definitely be reduced on the simple fact that it's currently entirely unpunished and that other communities, while always containing bad sports, have managed to be not quite as systemically hateful as this one. And the issue will never go away if the community continues to accept it as just another part of the game and belittle players who take issue with it.
As an aside, OP, I'm frequently lowkey awed reading your posts. It's rare that you express an opinion that I don't share in its entirety and I've always appreciated your thoroughness when doing so. I don't have very much to say here that you haven't already and I quite like the idea of thumbs ups meaning something.
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Like others have said, I think it's a bit hypocritical to use a map offering to one of the most universally despised maps and then complain that the killer didn't want to play. Yes, it's supremely unfun when the killer doesn't do anything and then ganks you right at the end with zero interaction or ability to stop it. It's also supremely unfun to play killer on a map where survivors are always within arm's length of a very strong structure (of which there are four), even the emptier zones are chock full of pallets, and the gens are all over the place and virtually impossible to pressure while survivors constantly drag you towards the House of Pain.
But also, if you see an afk killer and you don't make sure all 5 bones are dust on the ground before popping that last gen, that is one hundred percent your fault. You have no time constraint besides the one your teammates may put you on. The killer isn't pressuring you at all, and the situation? It's a trap with bright glowing neon signs pointing to it saying "THIS IS A TRAP." If the killer's legitimately afk, cool, you got some boldness points that you couldn't otherwise get when the killer isn't interacting with you. If they weren't afk, and in my experience they usually aren't, you've defused their one gambit and get to laugh at them out the gates.
A killer being 'afk' all game and using NOED is playing a meme game. It's very annoying, but it's not OP by any stretch of the word - it is by far a weaker choice than if they'd played the game before that point and they will get fewer kills. Even a killer who got zero hooks before endgame will still have gotten rid of some pallets, burned through survivor items, etc. So I don't get how it qualifies as abuse.