Laluzi
Laluzi
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- Laluzi
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I don't think Oni was the worst killer they could have added because 1.) they already added the worst killer they could have added, Legion, and 2.) Plague exists. But adding Oni after adding Legion was, uh. Questionable.
Though Oni might be worse than Plague as a power burst killer in 2v8. Plague's sickness and corrupt purge vs 8 survivors is going to be a nightmare when she's inevitably added, but she has to spread her own infection to reap the benefits. Oni can get his power purely off what the other killer does… and normally he's balanced by having a slower start as an M1 killer, where the ideal counterplay is to fend him off as long as possible by playing very safe. Toss in someone like Legion, Wraith, or Blight who can farm quick injures and you lose his downside, and instead he just gets near permanent rage mode.
Ghostface, in contrast, is really badly suited for this mode - his macro game is limited to saving stalk on survivors, and he doesn't even reliably have the option to save stalk for later when his teammate might chase a mostly marked survivor anyway. Other than that, he doesn't have split pressure and the most he can do is snatch the occasional potato from a gen. I've played good games as him today, but honestly I think Wraith does everything he can do better in 2v8 (where maps are big, the game is fast, and mobility is key.) Like I guess he could follow his teammate around and stalk their targets if the teammate isn't Billy or Oni… or a special attacker like Huntress or Nurse… but even then you'd get the same lethality by pincering.
Oni benefits from having twice as many survivors to bleed and rampage on, Ghostface is punished by having twice as many people to reveal him or tip off their teammates that he's stalking their gen.
I didn't realize they removed the anti-camp, but if so that's terrible.
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I think it was a cool idea, but what I dislike about the pallet repair skill is that the better killers in the mode don't care about it much or at all, but it makes the bad ones even worse. It's just another stratifying factor in the killer meta.
Like, Nurse doesn't care about pallets at all. Huntress isn't too fussed and can even use pallets for guaranteed hits. Blight and Billy can tear through them and also force early drops. But Slinger can't down across pallets like Huntress can, and Trapper, Ghostie, and Wraith have a truly miserable time against regenerating pallets when they had to spend so much of the match getting rid of all the double pallets on the maps already.
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I just got drawn back to the game for 2v8 and was appalled to find the new system. The UI is such a downgrade over how pretty and intuitive it was before, I'm still confused by it now, and the increased requirements to progress is a net negative even if you didn't care about the appearance or feel or the Archives. And I'm really sad to lose the old tomes themselves! Both to go back and read the entries, and because I already miss my pustula plant from tome 5 I'd bring everywhere to confuse people.
The change feels more lazy than anything else. Not a fan.
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I've actually had some pretty good teammates - last game alone had an MVP Lara and a Steve who bodyguarded me, and I only opened the gate because he ran out and looped the approaching killer before they noticed me. I mean, of course there's at least a few useless people in every game too, but I've yet to have one of those Oops All Potatoes games yet. Yet.
Oni + Legion is awful though. I actually haven't minded facing Oni with another killer, but the Legion combo just does not make me want to play this mode whatsoever.
The smoke bombs don't really seem to have any impact whatsoever.
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I don't think Oni on his own is necessarily a worse experience to face than Billy - which is a pretty bad experience, mind, but you could play around it unless the killer in question were particularly skilled at handling them, and most of them aren't. But the Legion + Oni combo just completely sucks out the joy I used to have in 2v8.
I think they may need to consider combos moving forward, and buff certain underperforming pairs or nerf ones with too much synergy. Otherwise certain killers like Twins and Plague are just going to make everything worse when they're eventually added.
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I just started playing it tonight, and I'm having fun. Most killers I've versed will throw snowballs mid-chase if I start doing it. There was one Onryo who was winning but started memeing with me when I followed her into the basement as a snowman. I tried to die for her to EGC and she disconnected just to give me the escape…. holiday heroes, man.
Killer has been fun, but it's hard for me to put on my game face because survivors keep running up to me at the start of the game and starting snowball fights, and I never know how to communicate 'that was fun but I would like to play the game now.' I'm enjoying that chest build stonks have gone up! Hoarder and Human Greed are finally paying off.
But I've definitely run into the bodyblocking wandering snowmen. Picking up snowballs to deal with them is mandatory, otherwise you're going to get trolled at random. My greater complaint is that they don't actually work as decoys beyond seeing some movement out of the corner of your eye. It's super obvious which snowmen are real people and which ones are fake. It's not just the behavior pattern of moving in a straight line, turning when hitting an object, and moving in another straight line - you can't even pretend to be an AI snowman because their movement is really rubberbandy and glitchy, while players move smoothly. Also, bloodpoint gain doesn't seem that high. Maybe I'm just spoiled from 2v8.
I also miss the OG snowmen, the inflatable ones with the angry/cute faces. The ones from last year are just ugly melted snow piles with entity bits in them.
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Also experienced this bug last night. I played two games last night before deeming DBD too buggy to continue. The first game, I had this glitch - after being uncaged the second time, I floated around, my camera was desynced, my movement was jerky and stuttering, and I was unable to interact with anything.
The second game, I did not experience this bug myself (I never got downed), but I noticed as the match went on that many of my teammates were not doing anything on the HUD and couldn't be interacted with… which is circumstantial, but matches my own experience in the previous game. Additionally, survivors were appearing caged or floating next to a cage (with a cage aura that could be seen mapwide), but on the HUD were not caged. Trying to interact with the fake cage or heal the survivor next to it caused the game to stutter, the action to immediately cancel, and the prompt to reappear. Survivors who were caged on the HUD could be uncaged and healed normally.
I was also unable to use my active ability even though it was charged; I used it once at the start of the match and from there, pressing F did nothing.
Also, in both games, players were appearing invisible or not attached to the object they were interacting with (ex, Jake would run up to me next to a gen, start to work on the gen, and he'd warp over to repair a nearby totem for the next 30 seconds.) Interactions with the killers were normal, thankfully.
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I also experienced this tonight, and witnessed it on several other players while spectating. Additionally, I saw a lot of players who visually appeared to be caged, and had auras, but were not actually caged.
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The Haddonfield rework was a disaster. Worst map rework they've ever done and a huge blow to my faith in the map department. They added a gaping hole next to every second story window vault, took a wrecking ball to main building, deleted a chunk of the map, and then added some completely unusable edge pallets at the walls that are less runnable than Z-windows for survivor compensation and called it a day.
The thing was, Haddonfield's previous iteration was not really survivor sided or killer sided. It had elements that were very unpleasant in both directions - huge exposed middle, high visibility, easy 3 gens for killer, and strong main building loop and stupidly strong double window houses for survivor that were a big middle finger to m1 killers. It was a pretty balanced map, though not exactly a healthy kind of balanced, just balance in the way that it screwed both sides over equally. Now it's more killer-sided than Midwich. There is just nothing runnable on that map. It only exists as some kind of delayed karmic balance for all the Haddonfield offerings survivors ran five years ago, like a disturbance in the Force caused by the ragequitting of killers from eras past. I can't think of any other justification for its current state of disrepair.
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Can we just have nighttime Coldwind maps, period? I miss that yellow sky so much. Daytime Coldwind just ain't it.
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Because I don't have to use bloody party streamers for it, which I don't have a lot of. Green offerings are a nightmare to stock up on. Escape cakes are easier, but I still run out of those if I leave them on too long. I'll take a free 250% boost happily. Besides, I'm escaping in 2v8 way more than I escape in 1v4.
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@Mandy said:
"clean thoughts plz" I'm really not sure you're going to get that.
For shame, Mandy. I swear, a thread can't allude to two extremely buff serial killer monster creatures tying cute ribbons on each others' horns and doing ring tosses without SOMEONE coming in and making it weird. 😡
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Houndmaster and Dracula. Gee, Houndmaster, how come BHVR lets you have two dogs?
Oni and Spirit, of course. Good old great-granddad-granddaughter bonding through mass murder, the Yamaoka family special.
Nemesis and Wesker, because come on, the full RE squad has to happen. Though I'd also like to nominate Pyramid Head and Nurse.
Any killer with a matched cosmetic set - like Queen of Hearts Huntress and Jabberwocky Artist. Or Armored Titan Oni and Warhammer Titan Spirit, though I specifically think this one's never happening because license negotiations with AoT are over.
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Ohh, yes. I love this. The possibilities are endless.
Imagine Trapper setting up a trap, forcing the survivor's head into it, and then Huntress planting a hatchet in their skull. Or Blight injects them with the serum and then Deathslinger shoots them and they pop like an overripe fruit. Or the survivor steps into a trap, struggles and starts panicking, and then Wraith emerges from invisibility behind them and cleaves them with Azarov's Skull.
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@sinkra said:
Killers just can't handle a mode that doesn't handhold them and make it effortless to win, now that the playing field is more even.
Let's please not turn this into a killer versus survivor thread. Most of us play both sides extensively and have a vested interest in game health on both ends, that isn't the point, and while I'm happy to blame the players for picking scummy strats when they have all the choice in the world and choose violence... right now, there's some objectively bad game design in play.
Survivors right now have very strong gen speeds without especially trying, and also fast and cheap health states. Killers are punished in two directions for not tunneling – passive gen speeds increase the more hooks get done, and survivors unlock powerful abilities that make them even more dangerous to leave around (one of which directly adds 5/10/15% to the next gen survivors touch, regardless of gen speeds!)
So it's inevitable that in this environment, killers are going to lose, they're going to get BMed, and they're going to stop playing casual and start tunneling. And to tunnel in 2v8, you need the high mobility killers. Hence all the Wraiths, Billies, and Blights playing hardball and creating utterly miserable matches.
This is primarily BHVR's fault for not foreseeing how the gameplay elements they added interact with each other. Not only did they introduce elements that are best countered by tunneling, they also introduced elements that punish the killer for spreading hooks and playing in the way that survivors like. The former part means that every killer who plays hard and mean would be doing it anyway, because those players stack every advantage they can. But the latter part means that people who want to play casual are also going to start doing it because they don't feel like they have a choice.
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@Dreamnomad said:
I would contest the results as you've recorded them. There were only 3 of the games with 0 survivors killed. So 3 killer stomps and 3 survivor stomps with the remaining matches having mixed results. I think the results are quite reasonable and it is your bias about expectations that is the problem here. The average number of kills in your sample was 3.23 per match or 40.4% of all possible kills. Yeah, it's not the 60% that killers are used to. Also, 17 games is not a huge sample size so I don't know how this compares to the player base at large.
But for a game mode that has a huge problem with too many players wanting to play killer and not enough playing as survivor this seems more than fair. We actively do not want more people playing as killer. If anything, Billy, Blight, Spirit and Huntress should all get nerfed and base kit unbreakable should be added in future versions. Get that kill ratio down to about 30% and maybe the queue times won't be so screwed up. Or maybe the answer is to make it 2 v 6 but give the survivors 4 health states. Either way, I'm sick of the queue times.
I strongly disagree. Nobody would reasonably consider a 1k a draw as a killer, and that's basically what a 2k is in this context.
In most of those 2k scenarios, the deaths occurred by people getting caught at the endgame. You can't rescue against two killers teamed up, and two killers are very effective at pushing people out gates and denying altruism. A few survivors being unable to be rescued in endgame does not mean the killers didn't get destroyed that game.
I also cannot agree with your proposal or reasoning on further killer nerfs and survivor buffs. Killer queues are high because 2v8 offers killers unique and long sought-after gameplay, the ability to KWF. A big part of the reason survivor population manages the 4x necessary for game balance despite being the weaker role is because the ability to play with friends was formerly exclusive to it. You would have to contort the game into something virtually unplayable for killers before that stopped appealing more than survivor gameplay, which is basically the same but faster paced and with a few neat active abilities.
Please understand that the shape of the buffs survivors have received encourage killers to tunnel them. Some might look at it as survivors finally getting to have fun after spending years suffering in solo queue. It will be… for a few days. But then every killer who's casual will have either given up or hardened up, and the remainder will be playing as scummy as possible, and then the mode will be a cesspool for everyone. This is what concerns me about this game design. It punishes the casual gameplay that made 2v8 fun last time and pushes sweaty meta. Unbreakable doesn't help this, it only encourages the problem further. You would have to give survivors powerful tunnel protection to kill the meta strat, like OTR + Shoulder The Burden, as tunneling is historically harder to effectively punish than camping or slugging.
@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3839786#Comment_3839786
uh… my impression is that deathslinger is horribly under-tuned in this mode. he's atricious in regular mode so it makes sense for him to be even worse in a mode where maps are 2x the size but i think his games are distortion of the modes balance.
at same time, i am not bothered by each of classes being individually stronger offering a sharp advantage in the game. I think the games are hard because of the global generator speed boost per cage which makes sense considering your data on tunneling & camping cages. most of the games that i have won on slinger were early tag-teams with my companion killer and than i'd just hover around cages entire game because moving around the map was unrewarding as him.
I wholeheartedly agree with Deathslinger being undertuned? I don't think I said anywhere that he was strong. I faced a few good Deathslingers but as a character he needs buffs, he's too slow and bad at pressuring multiple survivors.
Part of the problem is that survivors become stronger once single-hooked - the unlocked Guide ability starts making gens fly even harder, which means you kind of have to focus Guides out once you get a hook on them or they spiral out of control. And I still hold to the pallet reset being problematic for punishing the weak killers more than it punishes the strong ones.
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@[Deleted User] said:
Popping back in after a few more hours tonight. I don't think I've run into a single killer that I would normally get in my MMR bracket in 1v4. It's reminding me why SBMM exists. Not necessarily saying it should exist in 2v8, but I get why it's needed in 1v4.
The results are what they are, but I'd caution against tweaking the numbers too much. I'm not convinced there's an actual balance issue in this mode. I think the matchmaker is reaaaaally struggling with the queue imbalance.
It was like that last time too, but my win/loss ratio wasn't nearly as skewed. It was better than it usually is by a longshot, but the games felt less lopsided.
I feel like I've mostly been matched with mid or high tier survivors today, where last time there were far more baby survivors mixed in there (low prestige default survivors with no idea what they're doing.) I haven't seen any of those yet. Everyone at least looked like they've been playing the game for a while, fancy cosmetics, most games didn't involve collapsing potato sacks. There were two killers I thought 'oh no, this is a baby', but the rest were a tossup between below average (making frequent mistakes in chase but still had game sense and decent grasp of their power) and average, with some noticeably skilled players in there. Most of the killers I would say had the technical skill to beat my average survivor team in 1v4, but chasing whoever was in front of them cost them the game. It's difficult to guess whether that's because they didn't know what the winning play was, or because they just didn't feel like sweating.
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@SuspiciousBrownie said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3839608#Comment_3839608
Side tangent. I’d like to point out Huntress can not ignore pallets, I’m not sure why people think she does. Maybe 5 to 10% can be ignored. A 110 killer that moves at 77% when holding and an audible ready up sound has to deal with almost every single pallet like the rest because if you lose the 50/50 and the survivor greeds it and they end up getting a free 3 extra loops. So 9 times out of 10 the best play is to disrespect it and swing through. And the process repeats.
Huntress still has to worry about pallets being dropped on her head, even if she makes the play unsafe and survivors have to be smarter than usual to manage it, but once they're down, she often has the freedom to leave them down because they're predictable hits thereafter. Most of the pallets in these maps aren't so strong that she has to get rid of them, though different loop height/length matters. Generally I have not seen a lot of Huntresses breaking pallets in 2v8 outside of cleaning up after downs.
Also, 10 more games. One outlier and one cheater match, but largely supporting the same conclusions.
Game 18: Spirit + Deathslinger. 2K and Asylum, but that's irrelevant because someone was cheating. Many caged players that couldn't be interacted with, exit gate that couldn't be interacted with (which is how I died), a survivor inside that exit gate somehow. At one point, got unhooked and healed by someone across the map. Spirit had a stuck unhookable survivor on her shoulder that then extended the EGC indefinitely, forcing the killers to disconnect.
Game 19: Deathslinger + Trapper. 4k. Autohaven. This one kind of hurts my soul because the survivors played so badly and the Deathslinger was cracked, guy was a brilliant shot and his game sense for when to slug, when to cage, and when to pressure a nearby gen was perfect...and gates still got opened and half the team got out. Survs shouldn't have won this game.
Game 20: Deathslinger + Spirit. 5k. Red Forest. Killers played better than survivors, the two were very coordinated and often chased survivors into the other one while still playing separate games, and people went down quickly, but they didn't tunnel and that means gens got done.
Game 21: Deathslinger + Nurse. 1k. Autohaven. Killers got rolled – they coordinated pretty well at the exit gates, using Slinger to reel survivors out and 1-2 tapping them with Nurse, but otherwise just couldn't keep up with the pressure. Lots of double medic spam this game, both in groups of survivors and in chase.
Game 22: Huntress + Spirit. 0k. Asylum. Huntress tried to mass slug at the start but couldn't get enough momentum going and lost all her downs. Survivors seemed genuinely skilled this game, not just the gen speed carrying this time – the killers were skilled and had good macro sense, but survs were doing a lot of cheeky plays in chase and generally lasting a while.
Game 23: Wraith + Blight. 7k. Gates powered, but escape was through hatch. Campbell's Chapel. Wraith spent whole game pressuring cages and tunneling, which wasn't as effective as Billy doing the same, but was enough to shift momentum in their favor so that half the survivors were dead before the fight over the last gen started and they wiped up the remains quickly after that.
Game 24: Blight + Deathslinger. 0k. Coldwind. Killers spent the whole game together, which drastically reduced their map pressure, and slugged several survivors they seemingly forgot to come back to. Got a decent number of downs but just made too many suboptimal plays.
Game 25: Huntress + Deathslinger. 2k. Asylum. Liked to travel together andtag-team survivors for quick downs, but just didn't have enough map pressure – they were a slow duo on top of the usual duo problems.
Game 26: Trapper + Deathslinger. 8K, 1 gen left. Autohaven. This Trapper was a master of the art of “why the ^#@% is a trap here” and I'm embarrassed by the number I stepped into. Didn't tunnel, though 2 survivors were dead at 4 gens and that's likely what allowed pressure to shift. Overall killers just ran a much tighter ship than survivors. 3 Janes :D
Game 27: Wraith + Spirit. 8K, all gens done. Yamaoka. Wraith tunneled a few people out early and prevented uncages the whole game, but it was still a close call.
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@ad19970 said:
What exactly was changed? I am curious because I never played the mode before and to me it looks like these abilities still exist. Escapist still has sprint burst and scout still reveals killers when looking at them.
It seems they still have all the old effects, but the tooltip no longer mentions them, leaving people to think they were nerfed initially. But they weren't.
Instead, they all got buffed with additional abilities that charge over time and can be activated at will. Guide gives additional repair speed bonus to everyone around them, Scout can replenish broken pallets, Medic can 50% heal everyone in their radius, and Escapist can silence all their rushed actions.
They also get a new passive that unlocks the first time they get hooked. Guide gets additional flat gen progress for completing gens with others, Scout gets 25% faster walking speed and Iron Will, Medic reveals their aura to everyone while injured and also doesn't leave scratch marks, and Escapist can self-heal at 70% efficiency.
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I'm having fun - it's hard not to when you can pull off absolutely wild stuff, and when I'm not dying in 80% of my solo games anymore. But the current mode is way too strong in favor of survivors. I'm finding my team is winning games where the killers play better than the survivors, but just can't beat the gen speeds and mass instaheals. I also really hate unnerfed Billy and think he's stronger than any of the other killers in this mode, even Nurse and Blight. Overall I think the previous version was fairer and encouraged healthier gameplay.
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Something else I forgot to mention - I do not like the Scout ability to respawn pallets. Scouts are already very good, cutting through the chaos to tell their team what's going on, but this is a specific kind of unhealthy that punishes the weaker killers and doesn't do anything to the stronger ones.
In 2v8, there's a lot of pallets. Big map, double pallets everywhere. And you're either against killers that have to play around the pallets, and spend most of the game breaking them because there's too many for them to deal with - Wraith, Trapper, Slinger - or you're up against killers that don't care about the pallets and can ignore them or shred through them - Billy, Nurse, Huntress. The only good killers that are meaningfully hampered by pallets are Spirit and Blight, and they at least can force pallet drops faster than some of the others. But for everyone else, it's just reinforcing the gap between viable killers and unviable killers.
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@TotemsCleanser said:
To begin with, gen speeds are insane and there's no arguing with that. However, I think that the worst problem in 2v8 is that it depends a lot on the killer duo you get, even more than in 1v4. In 1v4, killers on the weaker side of things can compensate their own weaknesses by running perks that synergize with their powers and somewhat strong add-ons. And change their playstyle according to their perks/add-ons. In 2v8, the weaker killers get pretty much no perks nor add-ons. So stronger duos have a much better time than weaker ones, even when compared to 1v4 where stronger killers do have an advantage over weaker ones, but at least the weaker ones have some tools to compensate.
Gen speeds are crazy tho. No matter what killer you're playing.
I know I tl;dr'ed hard, but that's pretty much my biggest complaint. Survivors can't do anything against tunneling Billy + Blight, or Billy + Nurse, or Blight + Nurse. But on the flipside, survivor basekit has been buffed so hard that the less competitive killer duos have no hope at all unless the survivors are potatoes or memesters. Trapper + Slinger and Wraith + Slinger were pitiful. It's basically forcing you to go meta to win.
Killers can't currently be matched with themselves. I wonder if the correct way to balance this is to place killers in separate classes that can't be matched with each other, either - like, Nurse can't be placed with Billy or Blight. Wraith, Trapper, and Deathslinger can queue up together if they want, but won't get thrown together if they're both solos. But that'd just make killer queues even longer.
Or ideally we could just try to balance killers better. Trapper and Slinger definitely need buffs, in addition to some flat survivor nerfs that seem pretty necessary… and the removal of the tunneling incentive.
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8 survivor games so far and I haven't seen a single save attempt. This current version of 2v8 is so focused on efficiency that I don't think anyone feels free to mess around.
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@Jacknalls_Paw said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3839435#Comment_3839435
The game doesn't punish anyone, it's a small balance feature. By your logic survivors are punished for doing generators…and also a dead survivor counts as 3 cage states so you can tunnel all you want.
I've been playing survivor all day. It's absolutely a punishment to killers playing fair.
The killers who are spreading hooks and just chasing whoever have lost every single game minus one I've been a part of. And the exception was a 4k, which wasn't a win but wasn't a bad loss either. The killers who return to cages to tunnel have 8ked every time.
Gens get slower as they get done. This does help killers as the game tilts more in favor of survivors, but:
Gens get faster as killers hook survivors, as each hook state counts towards undoing the repair speed penalty.
Gens get slower when killers kill survivors, as there are less survivors to cover the survivor gameplay loop of chase-unhook-heal-gens.
The maximum repair speed penalty is -35%. The maximum repair speed boost is +57.5%. This technically means that survivors would win out, but that's cancelled out by only having one survivor left, who realistically cannot complete gens. Buuut, if distributed optimally, if everyone gets 2-hooked? 8 survivors can be alive on the last gen and have +40%, or +5% gen speed on the last gen… and as killer, you really don't want that. But you could also have that +40% repair speed, 16 hook states, be distributed on 5 dead survivors and 3 living ones. And that's a much easier beast to handle.
So. As killer, if you focus all hook states on one player at a time, you minimize the gen speed penalty (from your side, +speed is a penalty) and reduce survivor efficiency in one blow. If you spread hooks, survivors get faster and faster on gens while you get nothing.
This results in unhealthy killer gameplay, and unhealthy survivor gameplay to try to mitigate it.
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That's very strange that the Yui skin is allowed but the Spirit one is. Because it's absolutely a licensing issue; BHVR no longer has a deal with AoT and we know there's a problem with adding licensed characters to new game modes, where additional permission is needed. I wonder if the survivor skins are oversights, or if it's because they are technically the survivors wearing cosplays of AoT characters (and not legendaries), while the killer skins are meant to be the titans themselves?
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@Jacknalls_Paw said:
They updated the generator repair speeds some hours ago:
- Generator repair speeds are reduced by 5% for each generator completed.
- [NEW] Generator repair speeds are increased by 2.5% for each cage state.
So basically you need 2 cage state per gen completed if you want to compensate which is not impossible I guess.
And the last generator now takes a -35% penalty repair speed.Hinging it on cage states was a terrible idea. It needs to be based on dead survivors. Otherwise the game actively punishes killers for spreading hooks and not tunneling.
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@Murgleïs said:
Honestly, you need 2 medic to do that, in a 2v8 environnement, and they need to both use their power on a 2min CD. It doesn't seem very broken to me.
It's a SWF problem. Escapists were fine last game unless they were SWF, and that's when the problems started. Escapist got nerfed for that very reason.
This has a longer cooldown than the stacked Sprint Bursts, but it's also more powerful towards undoing killer progress than them.
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It seems insane to me that this is a system meant to balance survivor game momentum against killer game momentum, but killer momentum caps at -7% repair speed and survivor is up to +23%. The only way this isn't benefiting the killer is if the killers can't catch anyone. In your average game where the killers are getting thrashed, survivors will still have a positive repair speed modifier, which is terribly conceived… and that's in addition to the unnecessary guide buffs.
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Seems like this needs the old swivel hook treatment. Cages can only be unhooked from the front, which is what allows this kind of griefing in the first place.
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@xEmoGirlxAlexisx said:
The Mode is so unfun and trash as Killer its the perfect Bully Simulator for Survivor the Gens are way to fast u cant even hold it whit a Good Blight and Nurse
When u are a Survivor Main and u arent to good to escape in the normal Modus this Modus is perfect for you escaping in this Modus is so freaking easy u dont need any Skill
Im just playing it for the Tome Challanges and never going to Touch it again
The Funny thing there are still Survivor Mains who say this Modus is Killer Sided 🤷🏻♀️
Insulting the skill of everyone who disagrees with you, check.
Dismissing problems by insisting it's a skill issue and the majority of the playerbase just sucks that much, check.
Insisting everyone who doesn't agree with you is a main of Not My Side, check.
Right now 2v8's in a bad state for everyone because everyone got handed really busted stuff. Guide didn't need buffs and now it gets free immediate repair boosts on top of unnecessary general repair speed increases. Coordinated Medics can heal each other mid-chase. We got unnerfed Billy and Blight together.
If you don't use the most meta stuff available to you, you get wrecked and the mode feels awful. Killers do best with meta and slugging to avoid the gen speed boost. Survivors do best going maximum efficiency with stacked medics and guides and genrushing. It's neither fair nor fun, but you're myopic if you can't see that survivors aren't in a healthy state or getting a good experience out of this either.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
deathslinger feels very slow in the mode…. so slow that after playing him for two matches, he feels only good if you follow your teammate around for instant downs which is complete irony because system they gave him for his gun to break chain is exact opposite of what system was designed to prevent.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3839261#Comment_3839261
I agree. i literally just followed a wraith entire game shooting targets, realing them in and double taping with wraith and than my other game was following huntress entire game doing same thing.
Maybe he should have iri coin base-kit… so that there is incentive to…. idk chase other people alone? a stbfl would help as well.
Agree, Slinger's feeling slow and underpowered in this mode. I wonder if bumping him to 115% would be fair, or at least 115% while his teammate isn't in the area?
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@Gardhome said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3838977#Comment_3838977
Spirit and Blight needs buffs cause in 2vs8 they cant use addons that make them actually threat. At base kit both of them are mediocre or sometimes even weak
Spirit, maybe. Blight, definitely not. Blight without addons is a better killer than half the available roster in 2v8 with addons.
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I feel like between the gen speeds and the meta killers, it's basically inevitable 2v8 morphs from the fun chaos of last iteration to the sweaty minmaxing that's already consumed 1v4. You need genrush to counter two meta mobility killers, so you bring it. You need two meta mobility killers to counter genrush, so you bring them. If you don't, you get stomped, it's miserable, and you go "okay, I'm going to sweat next game."
2v8 was so much fun last time because unless you were up against a big SWF, it wasn't very optimized and you didn't have to play that seriously. Now the optimization everywhere is making it so that being casual gets you destroyed.
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@BorisDDAA said:
Meanwhile deathslinger just has a reloading speed buff lol
Yeah. I had Trapper + Deathslinger and Spirit + Deathslinger in my second and third matches and they did not do well. 6E and 8E respectively (though the second Deathslinger didn't seem very good at the killer, while the first was.) I'm suspecting Deathslinger needs a buff, he already wasn't a very strong killer and he isn't doing very well in a faster paced environment.
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There isn't much point in discussing bans on the forums - the moderators here aren't the same ones who deal with player account status.
Also, your ban should end in a few days, so you'll have plenty of time to play 2v8, don't worry.
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Welp. Had my first match of 2v8. Blight and Billy who constantly zoomed over to cages to tunnel and slugged for the 8k. 3 gens got done. Whole thing was just running around desperately trying to unhook everyone who was dropping like flies.
Awful experience. If most my games turn out like this, I'm going back to 1v4 for the entire event.
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Wow, Scout got gutted. It barely provides information anymore. Zero reason to play it… I'm still frustrated they seem to think Urban Evasion is any use whatsoever in a game that is pure chases and minimal hiding, especially when killers get loads of aura reading.
Restoring pallets might be interesting, but that isn't worth half as much as telling the team where killers are in a mode so chaotic it's very difficult to tell what's going on otherwise. I'm happy with the Medic change, but this one ain't it.
Edit: Did my first match and Scout still seems to provide aura read, even if it's not mentioned in the overview. However, the Blight-Billy combo is horrible to play against so far.
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Disappointed there's no iri shards, but hey, some bloodpoints is some bloodpoints.
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I thought Billy was too weak last time, but this tips him over to too strong, especially in this kind of game where he's basically always in a chase and there's almost no search time. Instadown with some of the best mobility in the game (did they add any indoor maps, or are they all still in his favor?) and loads of aura reading is just kind of insane. Between that and Blight, who's much easier to play than Nurse, I'm concerned that this round of 2v8 will be a lot sweatier on both sides, which will erode the fun factor it had last time.
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I'm liking all the buffs and class changes, but I'm really not looking forward to Blight and unnerfed Billy. Rather annoyed they added the most meta killers to the mode almost instantly, instead of more goofy and fun ones like Bubba, Nemesis, Wesker, Unknown, etc. If 2v8 becomes a sweatfest, nobody's going to want to play it anymore. A big part of the charm for me was the clean slate from meta perks, items, and addons.
Hmm… I'd love Ghostface in the mode but 8 survivors potentially revealing him sounds like his personal nightmare.
Anyway. I'm very happy Medic got the buff it needed. It was terrible last time, and I say that as the person who's always bringing heal builds in 1v4. I wanted to like it, but it just wasn't it. I still wish they'd stop trying to make Urban Evasion a part of Scout and give it a better benefit, but what can you do.
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Brilliant idea! I think some of the worst elements might need to be removed - 0-hook moris, insta-gen BNP, a bit of map rebalancing to get rid of infinites. But the old maps, old graphics and animations, old powers, no characters or perks past a cutoff date and the old versions of those perks… I'd really love a chance to try that out.
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I'm looking forward to the changes made to the roles, especially the addition of killer roles, but I can't say I'm too happy that they made sure to add in all the most meta killers before adding in the mid-tier fun ones. Part of the reason I was having so much fun with 2v8 is because it generally wasn't a sweatfest. Now we don't just have Nurse, we have two super high tier mobility killers - Blight and unnerfed Billy, who just got way more attractive than most the options on the roster. Though the Trapper aura share with the teammate was a much-needed buff and I look forward to playing with it.
The gen speed changes are interesting but I rather doubt they're actually going to influence how the matches play out - they're too minor in the killer's direction, and don't balance out heavy player loss in the survivor direction.
But of course, I'll have to see how it all plays out!
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Was wondering this too. I loved that brief period of time where I could tell exactly which survivor brought party streamers… and which one brought the map offering.
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It's kind of crazy that we have a designated time of week where people know they can get away with anything.
@fussy said:
Why? Aren't we allowed to have weekend laugh session?
I mean, I guess? But my line for 'I can meme with this' stopped when that insanely racist gif got posted, unfortunately. Gross that it's been up for half a day now.
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Thank you for these stats! 1000 games is huge, and that's a really thorough look into an interesting beast that's hard to measure - I don't think I've seen sportsmanship stats before, and especially not in such a distilled environment (because posting GGs without interacting further is as neutral as you can prompt.)
And the results… aren't great. Not that I was expecting better, but it's disappointing to know that we've got such a low baseline for good sportsmanship. And the crap with the pride cosmetics especially, oof. Hope you reported.
I would hope BHVR sees this, because the mood in the game, and player goodwill towards the opposing side, has been poor for as long as I've been here, and I would love to see some incentives for better sportsmanship. I've long loved the idea of rewarding players for thumbs ups, for instance.
Out of curiosity, what was your playstyle, or did you not really have a consistent one? I say this with the caveat that survivors constantly accuse me of things I wasn't intentionally doing, if I was even doing them at all (and streamer vods often trashtalk me within an inch of my life for very average or even forgiving gameplay, the number of times I've been accused of streamsniping for returning to a contested gen or reacting to an aura perk is wild). So that isn't an accusation that the overwhelming bent towards negativity was deserved… just that I would expect someone who hard tunnels would get higher rates of complaints than someone who 12-hooks, even if I expect both to get complaints as a baseline, so I'm curious where between those extremes you fell.
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On the one hand, a mode where survivors could give the killer a selection of killers to pick from sounds neat. But realistically, I imagine it would be used pure meta.
If you can tell survivors which killers the killer can't be, they're always going to pick Nurse and then some mix of Blight, Billy, Hag, Plague, Legion, Twins, Pinhead - the ones that are strong and the ones that are annoying. If you tell survivors which killers the killer can be, they're always going to pick Trapper, Freddy, Myers, Ghostface, Sadako - the ones who are easiest to beat. While I would hope there would be Resident Evil survivors putting forth Wesker and Silent Hills wanting Pyramid Head, or snoot boopers and puppy petters - goodwill is so low and frustration is so high in the community that I'm pretty sure people would mostly try to handicap each other as much as possible within the constraints given.
Though a mode where people can try out characters they don't own yet would be pretty cool. What if, instead of survivors picking a ban list, killers are randomly generated a few killer choices, and they have to pick one? Like it gives me Billy, Pig, Deathslinger, Xeno, and Dredge, and I have to choose which one I want to play? And it can generate characters I don't own, and let me play them with their t1 perks as well as all the perks I already own. And lean RNG towards characters I don't own, or always have at least one unowned option as long as I don't have all characters.
Such a mode would be popular with people who don't have all the killers yet, though for someone with all the unlocks, gameplay would need to be changed in some way (and survivors also given different conditions to work under, like being locked with a random item, or also getting random character selection and having to use at least one of the perks of the survivor they pick) to make it worth checking out.
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If used brainlessly, it's a killer perk, but I disagree that it helps killers in its intended use case.
Tunneling isn't about damage states, it's about achieving a 3v1 as soon as possible, because that's the point where you can pressure survivors out of ever being able to work on gens (or only able to work on gens once your chases take longer than reaching the unhook, unhooking, and healing… minus healing if they don't heal, but then your chases only need one damage state. Basically the survivors have to be really good in chase to progress the game, and most survivors are not.) Even if a player on the hook has less health states to burn through, the game is basically over for survivors as soon as they're removed from the game unless 3+ gens have already been done, so if I'm one of the players the killer is ignoring? I would rather spend my hook states now, prolonging the 4v1, than I would once it's a 3v1 and the survivors are just scrambling in circles. Saving my hook state for later won't do me any good unless the tunneled survivor can last 5 gens on their own.
And it can also be used aggressively. Imagine the SWFs with a designated looper - the one who clicky clicks and teabags, who fast vaults whenever the killer isn't paying attention to them. This is the most confident looper on the team. Smart killers will avoid them. Baited ones will fall for it and throw everything trying to kill them. This player can now potentially have 6 chases instead of 3, which is just insane.
Also, it's pretty hard to tunnel with Devour unless you're a teleport killer because Devour requires you to be far from the hook if you want stacks. Devour's also wildly unreliable unless survivors don't know what bones are… and bypasses health states by 3 stacks and bypasses the need for tunneling entirely when you do pull off the 5-stack, so I don't think it really factors here.
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Also, I gotta say. When the combination of your topics on this forum are "DC penalties should be turned off", "stop saving me when I'm trying to kill myself on hook", and now "why is nobody saving me until I try to hook suicide", it's uh. Painting a picture?
Maybe try playing killer for a while, is what I'm saying. Or something else. Because when you say this game is toxic as hell and all your teammates are terrible and you don't want to play with them….. yeah, we all have bad games, and often. But you may be overlooking a common denominator. If you try to suicide out of your games, your teammates WILL hate you and do their utmost to waste your time. The killer often will too, because you are doing something that is universally disliked among the playerbase, and they're all sick of bad teamplay like that in their games.
When you give up, any remaining survivors who have not given up are going to be angry at you for throwing the game. There is an unspoken agreement that if you sign up for a match of DBD, you agree to play it out. That's why DC penalties are a thing. Hook suicides are an unintentional bypass of this, so people look at it like penalty dodging and try to make it harder to do to discourage it.
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I mean, how long are you waiting? I've been left to rot before and I'm not doubting people have left you up there for a whole minute or two. If you lose a hook stage and the killer isn't actively proxying you, your teammates suck. Not much excuse when icons make it obvious if everyone's on gens/chased. And I've had to play Nice DM way too many times in recent history - if I'm killer and I see a survivor dying on their first hook, I make a point of going over and unhooking them, because screw that.
But I also see survivors start freaking out after 20 seconds on hook when nobody's coming to get them and my gen is 95% done. Yeah, if I see Dwight killing himself, I will rush over and unhook him, but that's because he's risking the game even more than I'm risking the game leaving my gen open to Pain Res or whatever else. In that case, I was going to get him anyway and he just burned his own hook stage for nothing.
Generally it's a bad idea to even try to unhook the survivor in the first 15 seconds of them being on hook, because the killer hasn't had enough time to leave the area.
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Yeah, it's really frustrating. Only 1/4 or 1/5 of my solo queue games even reach gates being powered, nevermind me still being alive at that point, and then it hinges on me not being hooked/chased. Or not having another survivor already be on the gate when I reach it, and not being safe to cross the map to reach the other due to injury, threat of instadown, or the killer being right on our tails.
Sometimes I've opened the gate and started the EGC at objectively stupid times, like people aren't ready to escape yet and there's a lot of injured/chased/hooked players, and soft sandbag my team, because I'm that desperate to get the challenge.
Also gotta share one time where I was trying to get this one on Kate all night, finally had a game against a baby Trapper, got to an exit gate, had it at 90%, and dedicated servers stopped responding. 😂😭