Devil_hit11
Devil_hit11
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@lemonsway said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2837148#Comment_2837148
The problem with GF's current stalking is that you have to do it multiple times to each person for the opportunity to 1 shot vs my suggestion which is a progressive system with progressive benefits, benefitting GF in multiple ways from multiple sources. This way no matter how little or how much you stalk someone you always get something from them and compliment that with something from someone else. You won't necessarily need to get high stalk tiers on a survivor if you feel comfortable outplaying them but the little initial stalk you may have done on them is still benefitial due to possible passive bonuses and higher stalk tiers make those bonuses better. Plus you can stalk without actually losing Nightshroud that is already a gigantic leap, you don't have to lose stealth to be able to stalk and shift+w doesn't have such an impact anymore, if they're max tiered then you'll always have your 1 shot, they can't just outrun you forever, their only option is to escape via hatch or to not be found at all which i can see is what most people would opt for, and if they're tier 1 or tier 2 then you're still getting bonuses.
Overall would it take more time to max tier stalk vs current stalk? Yes obviously it must take a little longer due to how strong the new effects can be. Imagine if you manage to max stalk someone really early, that survivor will get 1 shot everytime, it's perma NOED without move speed buff but you can use PWYF to get move speed, a random encounter with the Obsession will mean you can gain a stack and innitiate pursuit on the vulnerable target, that's the goal to have vulnerable targets and pick and choose your battles. You already are doing this but in a way that isn't very reliable or accessible.
IF anything at the very least the minimal thing GF should get is the seperation of stalking and stealth. Stalking without using Nightshroud's stealth should be a thing, it would make him better already.
The reason i want stalk tiers is because killers need a passive thing to help them in the 4v1 and that passive should be something the killers control not the survivors. Chain Hunts happens no matter what and it helps but the box exists and survivors can time when they interact with it to minimize affects, in turn that's why puzzle solving add-ons exist, it's why teleport exists, to keep the passive active for as long as possible.
That's what i want i intend for GF something that puts survivors at risk so that even while still being an M1 killer he can still get his chance.
Circle of healing isn't countering 1 shots, rescuing other survivors if you're max tier stalk is risky cause you're gonna get 1 shot if caught and then there's just a hook trade which ends up benefitting the killer role plus it could be the final hook so theres another risk involved, however survivors still have defense options, BT, DH, DS, Mettle of Man,etc, so you can avoid the first 1 shot attempt and you might even have a teammate who is not max tier stalked to come to help you and take a hit for you aswell. Again i know how strong endgame could look for GF but i'll say again i just want a functional killer i don't wanna nerf survivors whatsoever.
IF you could shadow dash then you'd be Blight but way worse cause your very limited in range and number of uses plus you'd be add-ing a third aspect to the killer, which would become harder to Balance due to being another aspect to balance. YOu'd need the survivors to be clustered up in order to make good use of shadow dash wich i don't see happening very often, they'd just spread out and make it useless, same as Feral Frenzy, you're giving them a reason to just shift +w as early as possible wich is what they do now when they know you're stalking them, they get distance to avoid the stalk and gain distance in case you stalked them already and they can reveal you wif you go after them.
Ghostface does not need smaller base TR. Undetectable status effect reduces it to 0. Paranoid tiers is like a tax to getting the reward you want which is instant down. Picture devour hope. Devour hope gives at 2 tokens give the ability for the killer to get 5% haste bonus after 10 seconds of hooking a survivor for 10 seconds. Nobody runs devour hope to get this 2 token effect. Killer run Devour hope to get the 3 token effect of permanent instant down and potentially mori at 5 tokens. Devour hope from 0-3 stacks might as well be blank perk slot. Its how your ghostface power would turn out to be. Here is an example.
Suppose that nightshroud is separate with undetactable with following paranoid tiers:
T1 Paranoid: Survivor footsteps are 50% louder as you say(Clumsy walking)
T2 Paranoid: Survivors become oblivious and their breathing sounds are 50% louder.(Fear, heavy breathing, stress)
T3 Paranoid exposed(Terrified)
Realize that the first two effects are not effects that particularly game-changing for killer. They would feel more like a tax to get to. At the same time, I do not think ghostface is exactly envisioned with this gameplay in mind. Doctor with madness is more envisioned with this type of fantasy. From balance stand-point, It does not look very appealing and from creative stand-point, it does not look appealing.
I also do not understand why he is forced to crouch with movement speed cap of 110% m/s which is objectively a nerf from his default 115% movement speed.
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I would say the larger issue behind ghostface is that he is suppose down people before the survivor gets to the loop without getting spotted but stalking takes time which enables him to get spotted easier. Its like stalking is reversed engineer to fail. That is why people figured out that its better to ignore stalking as a whole on ghostface because m1 someone is like getting 100% stalk instantly and the survivor has to heal where as stalking and getting no hit after marking is just a waste of time. He has no guaranteed that he gets anything for successfully marking a survivor.
The whole gameplay revolving marking & revealing just does not play very well. The survivor is just running behind objects so ghostface cannot stalk, but if ghostfaces moves away from his leaning position, than he is out in the open and the survivor's ability to reveal is quicker than his ability to complete stalk. Just a very silly peek a boo interaction. A major waste killer time. In the past, breaking out ghostface was 30 second cooldown, so failing a stalk ends up ghostface m1 because he did not want to wait 30 seconds to stalk again. If the survivor was close to being marked, you would have this awkward interaction where the ghostface cannot m1 the survivor because of his meter disappearing but his power was on cooldown. Now its 24 seconds and you might get this awkward interaction more often. This is why my changes reflex to improve this interaction in regards killer side. Ghostface exposing survivor is like full-time job right now. Getting exposed as survivor is not end of the world against an m1 killer. Loop well and the expose will wear off eventually.
I think his character is suppose to reflex upon classic cloak & dagger gameplay. He is suppose feel like he has a dagger and he is looking to backstab you like an assassin. Assassins in other games come out of the shadows and large theme behind them is speed. This is why I think a dash would be fitting for him because it would expand on his gameplay a little more and create a concise gameplay loop of enter nightshroud->stalk->acquire target->dash to go in for the kill.
I am just not sure how it would work in DBD precisely. A dash could be that you move very fast invisible for very short of period of time than reappear, Think of Moira's fade ability in overwatch. A dash could be that you instantly teleport to location, some video games do this where backstab is like instant TP. DBD tends to animate dashes like billy's sprint. I do not think it is necessary for his kit to be expanded but it would add another angle to his gameplay.
He would probably do fine with just 2 above changes, but he would be a bit plain with just marginally better base-kit.
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@Mister_xD said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2847079#Comment_2847079
By faking ADS, The survivor will wiggle side to side anticipating a shot that does not happen.
and the exact same applies when you are not faking ADS.
the fact that you could whip out your gun and shoot almost instantly meant that they had to treat you like you were in ADS at any point in time, for as long as they remained in your direct LoS.
So once again, you dont get anything from faking it, as Survivors had to treat a Deathslinger in his ADS the exact same as a Deathslinger not currently in his ADS. The punishment for running in a straight line, taking a vault or entering a pallet or doorway is the exact same in both scenarios, whether the Deathslinger had his ADS pulled up or not - they get shot and hit.
The only effect ADS had on them was to show them that you were ready to shoot them out of those places, meaning they would not take them and therefore extend the chase by making you walk up to them and hit them instead of quickly taking a shot.
the only scenario where i would even consider faking ADS would be when the Survivors are a decently long distance away from me and i want to zone them away from a specific area - in which case a slight M1 attack cooldown after dropping out of ADS is not going to affect me anyway, due to them being too far away.
thats the whole point i am trying to make here: there is no (realistic) scenario in which you would gain more from faking your ADS than by simply not doing it. therefore this nerf to faking ADS is extremely insignificant to the point where it literally wont affect the gameplay of experienced Deathslinger players at all.
You realize that a killer that has 0.15 second ADS time is by far one of hardest killers to LOS. He has near infinity amount of possible shots that he can leverage. LOS merely gave very brief breathers.
yes, that is why he was such a balanced Killer. like i said, he used to be an absolute monster in close range 1v1 chases, creating multiple lose - lose situations for Survivors and making escape pretty much impossible. Therefore he was lacking in a multitude of other aspects, namely the 1v4 game (map pressure, tracking, interactions with more than 1 survivor, ...).
and there is nothing wrong with that.
i honestly dont get why you keep bringing up new Slinger. We both agree that the TR increase and forced .4 second ADS time were horrible changes, there is really no need for that.
"the fact that you could whip out your gun and shoot almost instantly meant that they had to treat you like you were in ADS at any point in time, for as long as they remained in your direct LoS."
Your assuming survivor is not able to react to any shots but that is not entirely true. This goes to back to @Leachy_Jr post which I explained in the past in regards to countering deathslinger. The 0.15 gun pull out animation is not exactly the time you had to react to his gun. this is the time it took for him to shoot. Deathslinger's gun is not hitscan. He doesn't just fire it and it instantly hit you. His gun had maximum range 18 meters meaning that it took 0.5 seconds travel time before harpoon travel its max distance.
Let us rule out few distances. Shoot between 0-8 meters on old deathslinger serves no purpose because... why shoot when you can just m1. Shooting between 17-18 meters is risky because the chain durability will run out by the time you pull survivor in and there bigger chance for the survivor to get hooked on object which might result in not getting the hit. This leaves us to middle distances of approximate 10-16 meters. This leaves his effective range for using his gun between ~10-16 meters for travel time of approximately 0.2-0.4 seconds. Average human reaction time is about 0.3
At close ranges, Old deathslinger shots were nearly instant. Like between 9-10 meters, they were pretty much almost not reactable to naked eye. The funny thing is that a deathslinger at near m1 range(but not quite M1 range) did not need shoot at these ranges because all he had to do was ADS->cancel and If survivor respected his shot at all, He would make up distance and get M1 hit.. At middle effective ranges, Survivor can react to when he shoots as the 0.15+0.3-0.4 from first 10 meters gave survivor about 0.4 seconds to react to him shooting. They do not need constantly respect his shot, but they only get a single movement wiggle left or right by the time they realize he fired. The deathslinger player can anticipate the wiggle by leading his shot.
Problem with current system is that survivor get wiggle continuously with no real drawbacks. Reacting to his gun is just stupid concept overall. Its part of larger issue for why safe pallets in DBD are bad design because they allow the survivor to react to pallet slides which derails to different discussion.
Conclusively, zoning by existing is not really accurate. Its only accurate if the survivor play it poorly. Keeping Deathslinger at distance is important to countering deathslinger and that is not very difficult as he moves at 110% with no special pallet break. Apart from NOED and his useless instant down add-on, Health states were also effective at extending the chases for making distance. The only real lethality perk you had to watch out for was most of the time was STBFL as it allowed him to do m1->m2 combo.
I do agree on your window point that windows are lose/lose for the survivor from animation lock. Pallets I am unsure about because I have dodged shots in tight pallet areas but as you say, it could be the deathslinger making a mistake. I will leave the discussion at that.
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@Mister_xD said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2845509#Comment_2845509
i am going to completely ignore everything you say about the forced .4 seconds of ADS time from here on out.
it is not part of this discussion and i have stated that, as well as my stance on it, multiple times now. if you keep ignoring that, i cant help it.
when i talk about Deathslinger not being any weaker with this nerf, i am refering to old Deathslinger who ONLY received this specific nerf this is about and NOT the 32m TR increase or the forced .4 seconds of ADS time before being able to shoot (he also has none of the compensation buffs they gave him - not that those mattered anyway, but im gonna mention this just in case).
There is never point where the survivor cannot do this which is the problem. As I said, his harpoon hitbox was not designed with that gameplay in mind.
that is, simply put, not correct. all you have to do in tight corridors is to aim down the middle of them and the Survivor will not have the ability to dodge to the left or the right, as their own hitbox is 50% (or more) of the available space, meaning a harpoon passing through the exact middle is always going to collide with it.
in other words, if a Survivor is running through a pallet and you timed your shot right, as well as aimed precisely down the middle of the available space (as well as slightly down, so they cant duck under it) they are running through, it is impossible for the Survivor to dodge the shot.
in those enclosed spaces dodgeing to the left or right is not an option. There was however one option they did have: fake the doorway and not take it / delay entering it. If they run towards a doorway and then do a quick 90° turn (or 180° turn if you approached from the side) away from it right before they would enter, its entirely possible the Deathslinger is gonna whiff the shot - but that doesnt mean you juked the shot in the doorway, because you never entered it in the first place. the same applies when the Deathslinger either misaimed and shot to the far left or right of the doorway and you dodged to the other side or when the Deathslinger mistimed the shot and hit you after you already ran through the doorway and had time to drop the pallet or quickly dodge to the left or right - those scenarios are the Deathslinger making a mistake, not you outplaying them.
and you might say something along the lines of "you see, THIS is where dropping your ADS and going for an M1 is the correct play!" here - to which i respond: no. it still is not - because you should have never entered your ADS in the first place.
you made a whole point in your comment comparing his fake out ability to many other Killers:
What you are describing is what I refer to as ranged bottle-necking. It is a form of zoning. Many killers utilize this such as pyramid head with POTD, Demo shred, Nemesis with dragging tech, Artist crows, Huntress hatchets etc.
but here is the very big difference between those Killers and Deathslinger - and also one of the main reasons why i keep calling ADS faking a bad thing:
Deathslinger does not need to enter his ADS to zone Survivors out. The fact that he could take aim and shoot within like .1 seconds meant that the only time you would ever want to enter the ADS state was when you were actively taking a shot. Deathslinger doesnt zone people away from windows by faking ADS - he does so simply by them entering your LoS. A Survivor inside your direct LoS knows to never take a window, otherwise they get shot (same for running through narrow corridors (e.g. pallets or doorways)) - Survivors in this scenario have already lost. The counterplay to Deathslinger is to keep him at a distance and break LoS to him, because the second he is close and has LoS on you, the chase is over (considering they can hit their shot ofc).
In other words, you gain literally nothing from faking ADS. all it gives you is something you already have without it: they cant take the vault or go through the palletwithout getting shot out of them - which was already the case due to the fact that you could enter ADS and shoot them so quickly.
Deathslinger was a character who could zone people out without having to fake his power to do so. That was one of the big reasons why he was such a strong chase Killer, because he forced Survivors into lose - lose situations all the time simply by existing (and i make it sound like that was a negative thing here, when it really wasnt. He had a multitude of downsides attached to his kit that balanced this fact out - but since this is entirely chase focussed they wont come up).
all faking your ADS does in those scenarios is dropping your movementspeed further down. thats why good Deathslingers didnt fake their ADS - because they knew that they achieved the exact same effect that faking ADS had without doing it anyway, its was just pointless.
in a best case scenario it did nothing, in a worst case scenario it cost you free hits.
"In other words, you gain literally nothing from faking ADS. all it gives you is something you already have without it:"
By faking ADS, The survivor will wiggle side to side anticipating a shot that does not happen. Since the survivor is not walking in a straight line, The deathslinger is catching up faster because he had no cooldown exiting in and out ADS thus maintain 110% m/s. I explained this in my opening post. You do gain something from faking ADS. You gain distance and unpredictability.
Something deathslinger lacks now a days, unpredictability.
"The counterplay to Deathslinger is to keep him at a distance and break LoS to him, because the second he is close and has LoS on you, the chase is over (considering they can hit their shot ofc)."
You realize that a killer that has 0.15 second ADS time is by far one of hardest killers to LOS. He has near infinity amount of possible shots that he can leverage. LOS merely gave very brief breathers. In fact, I would go as far to say that a big reason of why he had strong chase was in part for his inability to be LOS. You cannot cheese his old power with LOS like the other ranged killers. you had to win a bunch of 50/50 continuous coin flips in regards to predicting his shots and doing singular wiggles on either left or right side. Looping old slinger took a lot of Survivor skill. The Current one? Not so much.
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@StarLost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2843033#Comment_2843033
In chase? It's not far off. Watching a few Dowsey games now, unless there's a TV in a very good location he's basically just playing an M1 killer. His manifest/demanifest stuff feels more like a reflex - it doesn't really seem to do much in chase unless he's using specific addons.
She is an m1 killer. M1 killer rely on survivor looping mistakes.
"As things stand, the only thing she has on her side is novelty and being iconic. I'll bet that in a month you'll see her about as often as you see Twins, if the developers don't give her some serious attention."
Sounds like a large majority of killers. She is just following Status quo. People play her a bunch. unlock her perks, realize she sucks, go back to their mains.
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@Mister_xD said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2844155#Comment_2844155
i mained this Killer from his release up to the point i quit this game.
Trust me, i know exactly what i am talking about when it comes to Deathslinger.
His harpoon has super tiny hitbox. He has 1 shot and when he misses his 1 shot, he has to reload. Survivor that wiggle erratically are extremely difficult to land shots on.
correct. that is why you dont just blindly shoot at people out in the open. as i said before, you want to shoot them when they are in places or scenarios where they can not do this exact thing.
In other words, them going for a window vault is significantly more beneficial to you than when you zone them away from the window, because they lock themselves into an animation that you can very easily shoot them out of as Slinger and get a free hit from - if you zone them away however, you enter exactly the scenario you were describing where your gun gets unreliable and you gotta 4.4 m/s your way over to them to M1 them normally, which is a huge time loss in comparison.
it is a similar story with pallets or doorways, even though they dont animation lock themselves there. the second they enter a doorway or pallet is when you want to shoot them, because its an enclosed space where wiggeling to the left or right is basically impossible, so, if you time your shot correctly, its another free hit for you. Once again, zoning them away from the pallet means they run out in the open and we return to your scenario.
in other words, faking your power was the most ineffective way you could have played this character. adding a slight attack cooldown after dropping ADS did absolutely nothing to him in terms of balance other than raising the skill floor by making it harder for people who have absolutely no experience with the character, who dont know how to quickscope properly, cant judge the maximum range or predict Survivor movement and compare that to your projectile travel time to know where to shoot, to so well in chases with him. I wouldnt even consider it a nerf to be honest, thats how insignificant of a change this was.
and then you're going on about the other nerfs he received (forced .4 second ADS time + TR increase), all of which are not at all part of this debate. This is soley about the M1 attack cooldown after dropping out of ADS without taking a shot - which i stated literally in the first sentence of the comment you are commentin on.
i have never once tried defending any of those. in fact, i have openly disagreed with those nerfs from the very day they released and have been asking for a revert of them ever since.
"correct. that is why you dont just blindly shoot at people out in the open. as i said before, you want to shoot them when they are in places or scenarios where they can not do this exact thing."
There is never point where the survivor cannot do this which is the problem. As I said, his harpoon hitbox was not designed with that gameplay in mind.
"it is a similar story with pallets or doorways, even though they dont animation lock themselves there. the second they enter a doorway or pallet is when you want to shoot them, because its an enclosed space where wiggeling to the left or right is basically impossible,"
This I will disagree with on multiple levels. I am going say that. if you approaching a doorway, 9/10, a pre-changed deathslinger would just shoot at doorways expecting you to try to drop safe pallets for shift+w(Like shack). The reason why most slingers shoot is partly due to latency because killers see survivor actions late and the killer player did not want to be late where the survivor drops pallet with chain attached to them on other side of the pallet.
What you are describing is what I refer to as ranged bottle-necking. It is a form of zoning. Many killers utilize this such as pyramid head with POTD, Demo shred, Nemesis with dragging tech, Artist crows, Huntress hatchets etc. Those other killer are successful with this strategy because their attacks largely cover entire doorway/pallet area when utilized correctly. Deathslinger's harpoon is so thin that I have in the past dodge/juked his gun within doorway. I was greeding pallets heavily on occassion because sometimes I would not get hit by his low TR so I would be healthy in an opening chase and you as deathslinger main must know that shooting survivors during animation lock is free injure because the deathslinger does not need confirm the m1 hit when a survivor is healthy.
In the current iteration of deathslinger, his reduced ADS often makes it that he does not even get shot off in time in these pallet situations so there is barely any requirement to make predictions on his gun right now. I disagree that this gameplay is a free hit for deathslinger.
In term of windows, I would say that he is stronger at window simply because window vaulting is forced animation lock compare to running in a pallet doorway. In old iteration, he never really needed to shot because he could cancel out of his gun. In new iteration, he can hold his gun and walk towards the window+survivor, sometimes force bodyblock the window and if the survivor went to far away from it, he could cancel into m1 hit but largely speaking, he is mostly forced to take shots. point-blank shots are relatively easy in my opinion(No offense to huntress mains that miss point-blank hatchets). I would agree that he largely is not affected by windows post-change. At the same time, I feel like there is more time-sink to win windows with deathslinger than in the past which I would count as negative.
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@Mister_xD said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2842056#Comment_2842056
not necessary, but there was nothing wrong with that nerf either.
having a Killer that can slowly but surely zone a Survivor out with their power (without putting any effort into it either) is honestly just bad character design - and yes, if you just continuously force them away from any possible vault / pallet by preaiming it, you will get a guaranteed hit eventually, its just as much of a lose - lose situation as with old PH, just less instant. Its boring, its ineffective and there is honestly not much of a reason to insist on it existing IMO.
not to mention that this nerf did literally nothing to good Deathslinger players, considering that you never wanted to fake your power to zone people out with it anyway - you just shot them instead.
so all that really did was raise the skill floor of him a bit, which i dont necessarily mind.
I do not think you understand why deathslinger player's was faking shots in first place. His harpoon has super tiny hitbox. He has 1 shot and when he misses his 1 shot, he has to reload. Survivor that wiggle erratically are extremely difficult to land shots on.
The drawback of wiggling for survivors was that survivors are not moving in perfectly straight-line therefore they're making less distance overall where as deathslinger canceling his rapidly still moves at 110% for most of the time. They described this as lose-lose situation for the survivor. I would describe this as risk vs reward situation. The survivor is mitigating risk of making his gun harder to hit but losing out of the reward of maximizing the distance.
With current version of deathslinger, Survivors can endless wiggle erratically and the deathslinger gains no distance because he is forced to commit to staying in scope from cooldowns+movement speed slowdowns. As survivor naturally gain distance even from moving erratically, It eventually allows the survivor to use objects to LOS block the deathslinger at which point deathslinger is unable to shoot.
I would not say that his skill floor changed. His gun was never designed around survivors wiggling that much in the open. The shots are harder to land than any normal fps game. many of pallet loops that have tiny holes that he could fire through are now impossible to fire through because his ADS is too slow and the survivor can easily avoid the little gaps in loops that he can fire through. The high wall loops are worse for him in regards to survivor that loop more tightly around them making it more difficult to use his gun from constant LOS block as they turn around corner. The loss of fast ADS is destroying his ability to land shots that he could previously make. The result of his power-level being reduced is loss of skill-ceiling being lowered because trick shots are not possible.
5 years ago, I want to say around patch 1.5.0, There was a patch that reduced Huntress hatchet hit box to better match the size of hatchets and to improve latency hatchet hits. The reduction of hatchet hit boxes was quickly reverted because it destroyed huntress ability to land hatchets from a distance. Current deathslinger is literally in a worse state than reduced hitbox huntress 5 years ago. He is 1 shot tiny hitbox huntress with 32 meter TR.
He desperate needs revert on his changes. His changes are about as bad as Huntress hatchet hitbox changes years ago.
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I wish that they revert all-seeing blood change to 12 meter aura reading. The add-on was the same for years with no complaints until they adjusted wraith. that add-on was only reason for me to play wraith. The lunge gave him a tiny bit of chase. If it got improved further, he would have some outplay potential at loops with it, imagine... wraith having anti-loop. crazy.... too crazy for devs, wee bit over tuned. poor wraith.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2842069#Comment_2842069
You don't win every round either. Skill with Deathslinger can only take you so far. Even before his nerf, he was no match for the better teams, so why nerf him?
your 6 months late on this post. Survivor fun is more important than killer fun. He got slammed because he was not fun enough for survivors.
Hopefully he is extra fun for survivors now.
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@StarLost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2842135#Comment_2842135
Watching some footage, C tier feels about right. If her invisibility/phasing was a bit more potent that would actually make her feel about right.
It feels like a huge amount of her power is dependent on her addons.
well I already knew this from start. Its not my first rodeo in predictions. m1 killer were never really good to begin with so yeah.
A tip that I can give is that when survivor hold-W away from you, you can try to utilize her TV teleports like mint rag traps where you teleport in front of them. She has green add-on that increases her speed boost when coming out of a TV by 50%. Survivors can hear which TV you teleport from and I imagine that over-time, survivor will quickly adjust to this strategy by just looking behind them. If Sadako is not seen behind within 1 second of flicking, you can just predict that she teleported in front of you.
I believe the add-on name is called Bloody Fingernails. All the killers are add-on dependent against strong teams so there is nothing new there.
@konchok said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2842135#Comment_2842135
Stealth killers generally have tools in their toolbox to somewhat counter SWF. Wraith has complete invisibility from far away and partial invisibility from nearby, he even gets a speed boost when uncloaking to help with some of the loops. Michael and Ghostface have insta-downs so even when stealth fails they still have lethality. What does Onyro have? Everyone says map mobility, but I disagree with that. When I versed teams that were well coordinated, all of the TVs near any area they were in were always turned off. Sure I knew where they were because I was paying attention to where my TVs should be, but I wasn't any faster at getting over to them.
Blights generally my main, could you imagine if there were just parts of the map where I couldn't use my power if the survivors injected themselves with Pestula, do you realize just how bonkers that sounds, but that's what happens with Onyro, they can just neuter her of her power, and what is the trade off. That they can then offer themselves as a mori when it is the most convenient for them, when they're full health and on their death hooks anyway?
you should watch Oracle vs Tru3 Wraith. Wraith's tool are no better than sadako. Wraith's speed boost is mirrored by sadako's flicking at loops. both of them are pretty lackluster chase tools. Both of them have partial invisibility. Her is 24 meters, I believe wraith is 20 meters. He has faster movement speed when cloaking. She has TVs for mobility. Both of them can be used in chase to marginal degree.
Ghostface's instant down vs swf is practically non-existed in open maps. He is constantly broken out of his ability as his ability is countered by 3rd person camera. He has no chase tools and he has no gap-close. So arguably he's worst out of bunch. He is apparently getting reworked.
Myers is most similar to her if he uses mori add-ons in the sense that he can build up a mori like Sadako. He has instant downs if played in the traditional way but he trades stealth for instant downs. he has t3 bamboozle and slightly extended lunge for chases, but his pallet play is pretty bad which is where most m1 killer's struggle with.
All the stealth killers are more or less m1 towards safe pallets. The only stealth killer who was not m1 was spirit and that is why she was so strong in her prime. The other was deathslinger, but we all know what happen to that dude.
Funny thing about blight is that blight might be a better stealth killer with his Virgo's Journal add-on than actual stealth killers.
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@StarLost said:
I love her visuals and her lore, but the stealth...maybe I'm doing this wrong.
Just played a game, survivors not only seemed to know that I was near (lullaby I'm assuming) but also exactly where I was - predropping pallets, looping correctly etc.
What exactly is the strategy with her?
that is why i said she is C-tier killer. your probably facing 4 man SWF with stealth killer. to be polite, stealth killer are not exactly stealth killers when facing a strong swf. they end up being M1 killers because their stealth is countered by communication.
with that being said, I have been doing gen grabs with her in some instances which is hilarious to say the least. difference between solo vs swf.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2839921#Comment_2839921
The thing is, 5% is too much. This would equal the difference of a Survivor to Tier 1-Myers, when it comes to 110%-Killers.
While those have abilities to make up for their lack of Movement Speed, if they cannot use them, it will be very hard for them to get hits.
a tier 1 myers shouldn't be chasing survivors in first place. The killer who are 110% are 110% because they rely on their abilities to get hits. The 115% m/s can snuff boon totem or simply not chase in that area. Its suppose make it harder to get hits in those areas.
Its bad perk that needs its value up to be remotely impactful. Hope has haste 7% effect. Nobody complains that hope is unfair. The same can be said for Blood pact although blood pact is hard to utilize in current iteration. Dark theory should be 7% like other perks.
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@danielmaster87 said:
"Not learning the killer right" is completely subjective, yet it's been used time and again to say that some perk or add-on combo is "unhealthy" or "needs nerfing" on a certain killer. If an add-on makes the killer stronger, even if the player is reliant on those add-ons to do well with the killer, I say more power to them. Bad players will not get carried by this add-on combo. They probably won't even know it exists. The few bad ones who do will fumble around with Spirit as usual and not see much success. Add-ons like this, like Pinky Finger, like Engineer's Fang, like Alchemist's Ring, only boost the power of the killer when they're in the hands of a skilled player.
I think you under estimate the time that people put into this game. Almost everyone that puts good amount of hours in DBD knows a vast majority of common powerful add-on combinations for killer.
Part of reason why killer is difficult at high MMR is because high MMR puts you against survivor that are as good as you and have similar knowledge levels about the game. With that being said. Spirit sucks without MDR & CDB. If playing survivor, I expect every spirit to have MDR+CDB. Spirit is too weak now without said add-ons.
Spirit without said add-ons is mostly free win if your survivor team is remotely good.
@GannTM said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2839219#Comment_2839219
Which is a reasonable sentiment. Hopefully they do bring it back although I don’t have much hope they do.
They removed add-on because it reduced mind-game potential and countered Iron will similar to Stridor through blood tracking. Spirit's did not use it because giving up an add-on slot was more valuable than giving up a perk slot.
With posts like X add-on is unhealthy, DBD is designing killers around survivor bully simulator. Good way to kill the game.
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@Chocolate_Cosmos said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2838808#Comment_2838808
Funny thing is that I still saw comments of someone thinking she is OP and "everyone who says she is weak are sheeps that follow content creators opinions without their own opinion". Oh well...
that was my biggest complaint in PTB. it was difficult to stealth hit survivors in PTB. I thought it was because survivor could see my from long distances but after they wrote PTB notes, it was sight+lullaby. I have feeling that you need to use monitor&abuse and disregards her undetectable.
they really should remove lullaby. Lullaby do not work on stealth killers. custom TR should be saved for the actual TR.
The other complaint was that you needed add-ons to have any relevant condemn stacking and that directional TV sounds made them awful for landing stealth hits.
At least manifest & de-manifiesting is more useful at loops.
She might be solid killer if they remove lullaby and lower TV volumes drastically. those completely kill parts of her stealth.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2838031#Comment_2838031
I like the shorter mark duration a little more than having it be intermittent- I also considered maybe making marking take a little longer so that you can actually mark from a distance while hidden, because you have 45 seconds of wallhacks to help make up for it on top of the Exposed status effect. Either one of those would be a good change, I think.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2838032#Comment_2838032
...Is it, though? Ghosty already doesn't want to actually chase a Marked survivor since he's on the clock to get value and survivors have a lot of tools for not getting hit quickly- all wallhacks would do is give him an edge that makes chasing more viable. It's not as though a Ghost Face with this suggested addon would be unbeatable, or even significantly stronger, you can still make use of strong tiles, you can still be proactive in revealing him so he doesn't actually proc the Mark to begin with...
It's an iridescent, it should have a substantial impact on the match.
Outdoor security camera is all-about aura reading. Why not just add this effect on Outdoor security camera? Outdoor security camera is weak add-on for ghostface. it demands him to stalk for minimal information gain. The aura reading on other survivors globally across map has little value on a killer that has no mobility or chase capacity to capitalize on it.
Myer's has similar add-on called Vanity mirror. I imagine that if dev made an add-on like this for ghostface, they would put drawback on it that survivors no longer become exposed during mark. In my opinion, survivor would just play more safe towards pallets and windows against add-on so I do not think it would that much of an impact.
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I would say he is medium-level difficulty. is that time again where survivor complain to get another killer erased from the game? In-before dev increase the stun time for colliding on an object from 0.5 to 1.5 seconds and make blight as clunky as deathslinger where survivor mains say blight is the same. just git gud.
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@lemonsway said:
Part 1: why i think the current stalking system sucks.
The purpose of this idea is to update stalking with GF. As it stands stalking with GF simply grants the exposed status effect for 45 seconds, meaning you can down a survivor with a single M1 attack.
THis isn't always possible to do, you won't always be able to stalk and expose and you won't always be able to hit them if you expose them. This happens for manny reasons, some of which are the wonky Reveal Mechanic and how Maps are designed to give Survivors multiple escape options which weakens the 1 single best path GF can take. 45 seconds is not alot in the vast majority of cases. Simply Shift W'ing you will waste most of this time and if there's any decent looping areas then GF can say goodbye to all the effort put into finding and stalking someone and engaging in a chase tha ends up in no gain and gigantic losses.
I know you'll all tell me "bruh just 99% your stalk" but the problem with that is, you're leaving someone partially stalked, you're wasting time that you invested in finding and stalking that guy just so you leave without bothering them 1 bit, it's just wasted time for the CHANCE, yes the CHANCE that you can get it later, it's not guaranteed you'll have the opportunity to go after them later, you might not have the opportunity to expose them later, will be too late when you can expose them? will you have your power ready when they are right there in front of you? Will you ignore hitting them if you can't expose them?
These are the scenarios that happen when you partially stalk someone, there's no guarantee that youll ever see them again, they can play super stealthy and get away with it cause Survivors do have better stealth, be able to stalk them when you see them again cause you might not have your power or proper cover to finish the stalk before getting exposed if they weren't properly 99% before, and you might not even be able to hit them now because of the area where you're playing at.
Point is stalking and 1 shotting isn't always achievable, even by partial stalking methods.
well written post.
"The biggest weakness i can recognize is that' you're still just an M1 killer, but that's how i think the game should be, Balanced for M1 killers, wich is another topic i've covered in another post."
The premise of stalking and stealth is that the killer can entirely scapegoat looping if he could down the survivor before they get to a pallet/loop. This is why 99% stalk is powerful. It allows ghostface to instantly complete a stalk if he successfully can come close enough to the survivor without being noticed. The problem is that survivor can reveal ghostface faster than he can stalk when ghostface is out in the open. Stalking for ghostface its current iteration is too much of risk because how difficult it is to achieve.
The reason why Shift+W is strong against ghosface's stalking in term of outlasting his expose mark is because ghostface does not have gap-closing tool to capitalize on survivors that have been marked. Stalking takes too long and survivor get a huge head-start if they objectively ignore reveal mechanic in situations where ghostface is leaning in certain angles where it would not be possible to reveal him. The conjunction of safe pallets and a large head start makes it easy to outlast his mark.
I do not see how reworking ghostface mark towards doctor's madness helps address the above two weaknesses that you describe in your opening post. If anything this system that you are describing is closer to Michael Myer EV1-3 system in debuff form which survivors will become permanent exposed by the end of the match. it sounds counter-productive to your opening post as one of your main issues is the time efficiency of stalking. it just sounds to me that it would be more time-consuming than current system because of the extra tiers to get same reward(exposed).
I would give him following changes:
-Leaning stalk is reduced by 1 second(Base-kit Ghosface caught on tape)
-M1 attacks no longer reset the stalk meter to zero(This reduces punishment for failing a complete stalk and allow him to muti-task 99% stalks better)
An idea I had for ghostface was that if a survivor is stalked, Ghostface can perform a shadow dash that functionally similar to Nurse-blink. You need Crouch->Lean on an object and when you release m2 button, you would dash forward based off how long you crouch->leaned, Shadow dashing kicks Ghostface out of Nightshroud and you can m1 after dashing. This would give him a really strong gap-closing tool to capitalize off survivors that he has stalked. By default, ghostface's old cooldown was 30 seconds so I figured it would only be usable once per chase from 45 second expose window. Cooldown add-ons would allow him to use it twice per chase and there could be add-ons to improve the shadow dash such as faster travel time and shorter charge time. It might also make those duration-exposed add-on have greater purpose.
The iri add-on idea I had behind this was that if multiple survivors are exposed, He could chain shadow dashes if he successfully m1 a survivor(Reset cooldown if Ghostface m1 the survivor within 5 seconds) kinda like Genji in Overwatch.
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@Brokenbones said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2835771#Comment_2835771
It affecting heal speed wouldn't change anything in todays meta but I'm glad it doesn't because the counterplay to a perk also being affected by the same perk is nonsensical. It'd be like having a boon perk that makes snuffing it take twice as long; makes no sense.
The only killers thana is good on right now forces you to either not heal (Plague) or makes it not worth it (Legion). It was bad when it affected healing and it's still not great now. It's a supplement perk you run with other things, it always has been and probably always will be
Also the reason many people don't heal and can afford to not heal is Dead Hard and to a lesser extent Adrenaline.
"Also the reason many people don't heal and can afford to not heal is Dead Hard and to a lesser extent Adrenaline."
I would say Iron will and dead hard. Spine chill as well but lesser extent.
"It affecting heal speed wouldn't change anything in todays meta"
I agree it wouldn't do anything today meta because a specific healing perk is being used. how is nonsensical to not reward the killer for split pressure? If there no reward for injuring multiple people or hooking other players than you can just expect every killer player to hard-tunnel and hard-camp which IS popular.
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@Brokenbones said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2835747#Comment_2835747
Survivors healing IS game delay though. It's time spent not slamming gens
If survivors don't heal and just do gens then you are in a much worse situation, that's why thanataphobia punishes that playstyle by making it take longer. Why do you think not healing was the meta for so long? It wasted too much time.
Not healing is how killers snowball/secure their hooks on people via camping or force trades.
"Not healing is how killers snowball/secure their hooks on people via camping or force trades."
You just answered why you do not need perk. The perk is useless. The old version allowed you to snowball better through injuries and force hook trades easier by keeping people injured. Now nobody stays injured so the perk never does anything because killer cannot keep multiple people injured.
"not healing was the meta for so long? It wasted too much time."
not healing was meta because safe pallets can substitute health states. Old god window played a part in it as well. It was faster do generators than heal. It is still possible in modern day in most maps but there no real reason to risk being injured if you can heal. thanophobia is punishing a strategy that no longer exists.
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@Deadeye said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2835698#Comment_2835698
Your image is not correct. You did two flicks to the right. The video shows a flick to the left. And as far as I know you can't flick twice. The second change of view angle is AFTER the hit connects
that is what Z-flick is. It is two separate flicks either to the right or left. Its technique that seasoned blight players use to get hits. As far as survivor is concerned, it just looks like a normal swing. I am just explaining it from killer angle.
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@th3 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2835705#Comment_2835705
It's not meant to keep people injured, its aimed at making survivors take time to heal. Penalizing the survivors for performing the action which was encouraged by the perk isn't a good design choice for said perk.
survivor in general already heal by default. No killer needs a perk for that.
The perk's purpose is to keep survivor injured and force them to work through generator slowdown. it is gen defense perk. now the perk counter itself because survivor can always heal before doing generator effectively giving almost no game delay. The 20 seconds of generator slowdown only occurs if a survivor fully worked through debuff on generator from 0 to 80. If everyone constantly healing, you get no value out of the perk because your always stuck at 0/1 or 2 stacks at most and those stacks do nothing because nobody works on generators before healing. dead perk.
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@th3 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2835678#Comment_2835678
It's healthier design
if by healthy design is suppose make the perk worthless than yes it is healthy design. how exactly is the killer suppose get 4 stacks of thanotophobia if the perk does not keep people injured.
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@Deadeye said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2835668#Comment_2835668
On a tree like that it is basically a coinflip, if the hit gets around the tree on the one or the other side. And I'm not talking about how to outplay, what went wrong or should have been done. It is just about what is visible on this clip. And in my opinion that is a BS hit.
But you say it moves based on view angle. That's my point. He needs to look away from Meg, FAR away, as this is necessary to do a flick like that. You also see that he is not looking at Meg based on the red stain
you went right than went left and ran into his swing. Before he swung, he changed his viewing angle by 90 degrees than he did a 90 degree lunge flick. Some people refer to this as Z-flick tech on blight. he just swung at the tree and the yellow part connected and hit you.
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@th3 said:
The very design of it encourages survivors to heal or face slower action speeds but at the same time punished survivors for healing by applying the slowdown to healing. It made no sense, and in order for them to buff the percentage it had to be fixed from the state it was in.
yeah but now it is awful. If you hated the perk so much, you should equipped a healing perk to counter it. COH in modern day counters so hard. Their change basically killed the perk.
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@Deadeye said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2835623#Comment_2835623
I basically know how to counterplay, I was just wondering how this can land a hit because there is literally no point in the 2 chars paths where a regular hitbox would be able to connect. But with ellipse you mean my "desk hitbox" assumption is basically correct, yes? So it is possible and intended that Blight can hit survivors that are not in front of them?
The desk hitbox moves based off blight's viewing angle if at any point, the desk collides with meg, blight stops rushing and hit connects. The blight in your game just swung at the tree so he hit you. I would hit that rush 9/10 times on blight. you will not really outplay seasoned blight on a tree like that.
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@Deadeye said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/D387IGBM9DHH/grafik.png
for more detailed explanation on my thoughts. Where in this situation does the left one look viable from killer POV in your opinion?
If you flick left to curve around the tree (in FRONT of the tree) then you definitely aim away from Meg. After such a flick you cant adjust your aim back like 90° to the right
you have right idea for counter-playing blight.
Its that the tree you are on is too small. it relies on blight player to make a mistake. Blight's hitbox for his lunge is shaped like wide oval and his lunge does not collide with objects like normal lunges, instead it slides off objects. if any part of yellow between starting point of his attack or end-point of his attack collides with your survivor model. it counts as a hit.
You need bigger object to counter-play blight. Objects about the size of Z-Wall. you also need to predict blight's bump logic and rotate object in correct direction. here's example of such an object from the current map your playing. its important to note that many blight players run Blighted crow+Blighted Rat(Double speed) and this gives faster rotations around the object. Survivor counter-play towards killer powers(for the killer including myself) is very boring so I typically either try hit survivor before they get to these power-positions or avoid insecure rushes if the survivor is skilled.
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@hex_uwu said:
Really wish BHVR would change BT (or at least make this a new perk) so that it instead just protects the person running it. I'm so tired of bringing BT to solo queue and getting teammates who don't bring it at all and so I get farmed and die meanwhile they're guaranteed a safe unhook from me.
yes, that new perk is decisive strike. Decisive strike is self-BT but you need to hit the lockers.
Another perk that is close to self-BT is Sprint burst. Sprint burst does however ban you from utilizing Dead hard.
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@BubbaDredge said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2831736#Comment_2831736
So you think that once a survivor has been hooked twice, killers should never chase them again, ever? Are we allowed to chase them in other matches, or do they get to be untouchable forever? This is so ######### stupid, it's not our job to help survivors win. When is a survivor expected to go easy on me so I win?
Nobody uses BBQ for the info, we use it for the points. It's not a security blanket, it's a reason not to camp.
I do not think BBQ does anything to deincentize camping. I have seen killer camp using BBQ. when I say tunnel in this context, I am referring to tunnel-vision. picture this situation. if you have a survivor on deathhook and you have 1 hook state on two other separate survivors with 1 generator left, The killer wants to chase the survivor on death hook.
Survivors that are on death hook typically want to hide away from the killer so that the killer spreads hook states across entire team. Information perks help the killer focus hook states on a single survivor. I hope this clears up any confusion.
@Mat_Sella post explains discordance in broad detail. in short its pseudo game delay perk with tracking.
arguably speaking, Danielmaster87 point is that you do not need information perks as killer because good survivors are so efficient at objective that they serve no use and you can use your own skill to find survivors in general. This refers to @CryptFriend comment of BBQ being a BP boosting perk.
@danielmaster87 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2832894#Comment_2832894
No, you will not get to use them a majority of the time. Survivors that are below top of the top also know how to finish gens in your face or destroy hexes. My complaint is that you don't have to be an unbeatable team to beat a really good killer. Just be quick on gens.
Pulsar has 90% kill-rate, you just need to get better. Nothing to do with survivor calibur. My experience is similar to yours. My theory is that some regions like Otz region are not very good at DBD while other regions are very competitive. Otz for example was doing 4k with every killer with no perks, no add-ons, 30 second afk.
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@GeneralV said:
The reason why Self-Care fell from grace, is because the healing action itself takes longer now.
Back in the day, 12 charges were required to complete a healing action. This number was increased to 16 sometime around Spirit's release. Self-Care, which was once an excellent option, became something that merely wasted time, at least for the majority of the community.
My personal opinion is that they should make the Self Heal action take 12 charges when you have Self-Care equipped.
Problem solved.
they would not do that. you would buff self-care to be like 50% penalty ->40%. that would give 26.6 second heal. the old number of self-care is roughly 33% which is 23.88 second heal.
I would say considering that a lot of player would rather use med-kits over self-care, I'd say its clear sign of the perk being too weak, but you have remember that whole reason they weakened healing was to make the game slower for killer.
News flash, it did not make the game slower, It just made healing not worth it, hence why perks like Iron will was common before COH. Dead hard also facilitates this gameplay of staying injured.
@RaSavage42 18 second. COH is massively stronger version of self-care.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2832566#Comment_2832566
I also think it's overhyped, despite also liking it. In many scenarios, Corrupt or Deadlock is way more worth it than 8 stacks of STBFL. Holding forward is still a thing, you shouldn't be using your special attack at that point but then you're an M1 killer, and the obsession constantly wants to get chased by you, and holding forward is still a thing because even STBFL x8 isn't enough catch-up. 8 stacks of STBFL will not singlehandedly win you the match in the late game, which is what many people claim.
it is a problem with lack of counter-play on holding forward for survivor. The strategy for the survivor is so strong that even equipping a perk only helps to mitigate it. The perk in general was weakened a long time ago because bad survivors were trying to 360 killer and ended up not maximizing their distance gain, so they would instantly get downed from quick recovery. This phenomena is presented on Trickster. lots of survivor think he's overpowered because he has no recovery so many survivors get instantly destroyed in the chase and whine he is too oppressive. the so called old machine gun build was soft counter to shift-w survivor gameplay.
A large reason why Nurse and Blight are strong is because their gap-closing ability allows them to have stbfl for free by virtue their mobility. Spirit with Mother daughter ring also gets this. Its major property of all strong killers to have some method of countering shift-w and of course, all of them that do have it are better than the perk itself.
The irony behind is that generator delay/slowdown perks are also indirect counter to it because the killer is going into the match knowing he is going to get looped by low counter-play strategy. For example if a survivor hold-w and the killer follows for 20 seconds, the survivor wastes 20 seconds of killer time but deadlock gives him 30 seconds back. so its like counter-balance. This is all disregarding window and pallet balance in a given map.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2832406#Comment_2832406
I mean yeah you can use nemesis but you don’t need to since furtive chase switches the obsession every time the obsession is unhooked.
Don’t get me wrong, the perk sucks in its current form. But theoretically getting 4 hooks on obsessions and then having either an 8 or 0 meter TR outside of chase for the rest of the match would be kinda crazy.
One idea I had was to just give the perk an additional effect every time the obsession is hooked, such as a temporary speed boost or anything else really. And that’d be on top of what it does now.
that is what devour hope does. it gives temporary speed boosts after hooking. in theory, devour hope gives permanent instant down at 3 stacks and mori's at 5 stacks. yeah it is totem but the rewards for furtive chase right now for getting tokens is non-existed and even the rewards were lower TR. It is not exactly game-winning.
by comparison, a new perk for pinhead that recently came out is hex:plaything and that perk gives oblivious when you hook a survivor. oblivious is 32 to 0 instantly. I don't know how to put this but a lot of survivor just ignore hex:plaything because loss of TR just doesn't matter.
If you don't believe me, here's just an example. Ohtofu like 3 weeks ago was doing hex:pentimento challenge. As you can see, many games, you can't even get 4 plaything totems up and in odd case you do. the game is probably over by than. With furtive chase, its even worse because the obsession aspect of the perk forces tunnel vision as if you not going obsession, your perk is not stacking up.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saIXss-f4V8Overall, the perk even at its functional state would probably not be that good, even though it sounds good on paper. This is ghostface perk so I'm not shocked at its poor effectiveness.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
The problem is it's difficult to really introduce anything that decreases terror radius outside of a chase because Monitor already exists and stacking the two could get out of hand.
That said, Furtive Chase is still terrible despite its recent buff and does need some changes - but it should be changed in a different way.
I mean the whole goal of perk is to reduce your TR. It does require 4 obsession's to be hooked. The only reliable way to switch obsession for hooking is to use Oni's Nemesis perk. Its 3 perk investment to make any killer stealthy. An entire build devoted to stealth.
right now, the perk is pretty worthless and no other change other than above one would make it redeeming perk to use.
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I think the reason why you see BBQ and discordance as killer perks has to do with concept of a security blanket.
some players have very bad sense of direction when it comes to understanding the flow of a match. They're afraid of not having 100% chase-up time in a match as killer, so they run information perks as Insurgence towards finding survivors. They find possible loss of time looking for survivors a greater than reward of gaining more time on generators. I would say information perks are safety net perks.
Another possible reason for running information is to tunnel as killer. instead of explicitly tunneling off hook, its more indirect soft-tunnel by finding survivors that are on death hook towards middle stage of the game.
Pain Resonance is used to trigger DMS without the killer requiring to commit going to a generator. Knocking off 2 survivor for a full 12 second+45 seconds of DMS is increatible perk value. It is really interesting question whether deadlock or Pain Resonance is stronger.
I feel like No way out a bit overrated for a perk. I feel like true power of No way out really comes from NOED and nothing else. In matches that you have won, its fanatic win-more perk for alerting exit gates but I feel like the perk functionally is no better than running blood warden. At most, it gives 1 extra hook in late game. I would describe No way out as Haunted ground of hex builds. Its like Icing of cake. Haunted grounds can often snowball Hex:Ruin or Hex:Devour hope builds rapidly. No way out can escalate NOED.
I run stbfl a lot on vast majority of my killers and the reason why I run it is because my greatest fear as killer is bodyblocking & shift-W gameplay on m1 killers. My other fear is dropping safe pallets but there is no perk that is viable for punishing safe pallet drops. If only coup the grace cough cough was more useful cough cough(no token system please).
In the end, the best perk build is the one that works best for you and complements your strengths & weaknesses as a player.
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@Gamedozer7 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2830366#Comment_2830366
You definitely need to be able to download survivors relatively quick but if you can instantly put a survivor in a lose lose situation with no real counterplay thats bad and I feel like the way she plays at loops if you remove the slowdown almost all loops become a lose lose.
I don't mind zoning as long in most case there's ways to try and avoid been zoned. Not a built in counter but something the survivors can do in most case to try and not end up in a bad spot.
It's so true so many power have built in handicaps that you have to figure out how work around to be effective. Huntress slowing down when throwing makes sense. Freddy slowing down placing traps doesn't plus survivors can work around then in most cases.
before Artist went live, one of her changes was that running into crow storm does not directly injure a full health state. One of the reasons why this change is not really felt has to do with the fact that Artist can shoot the crow just before the survivor runs into it dealing full health state.
A possible solution is making it so that firing crows never fully inflict a health state of damage. See the issue is that survivor can bait the crows in certain instances. Other times, you can create lose/lose situations where the survivor can't really go through the crow segment but at the same time will take an m1. If there no crow segment, a survivor could just voluntary walk into crows and can hold-W while transitioning into another loop in which case you only get a single shot to capitalize off the crows.
By making that you always need hit twice, you can establish greater consistency in her gameplay. The greater consistency allows you to make changes that accommodate a range playstyle. My concern is that I think her gameplay in term of downing survivors is relatively slow because she needs hit a survivor with a crow, fire again to kill a health-state, than you need hit another crow on the survivor again, but this time, the survivor has dead hard, if you miss, the survivor can keep their dead hard, but if you succeed, the survivor doesn't take health state, so your looking at least 3 crow-confirms assuming the survivor successfully takes off crows post-dead hard.
The iri add-on could be that it allows crows to directly injure when a survivor runs into them/when she fires a crow in the special line segment but it disallows crows to injure when the survivor has crows on them outside of special line segment. The add-on would change your playstyle from ranged killer to a more trap oriented killer(that gets countered by shift-W). In my opinion, Iri add-ons are suppose to be unfair versions of the killer but many other players believe that they should change killer's play style and this add-on would change your play-style. I'd make it that it has no drawback but your saying it would be busted.
"Freddy slowing down placing traps doesn't plus survivors can work around then in most cases."
He was too overrated, so he got sledgehammer. that is what happens when a killer get overrated.
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@Gamedozer7 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2830303#Comment_2830303
The thing is if the remove the slow down she'll be busted. Imagine if she could place a bird and still get to you before you can leave the loop.
They need to stop making killers with built-in clunkyness. I doesn't feel good to have to fight 4 survivors and your own power .
I mean the killer is suppose to down you in a timely manner. If by busted, you mean oppressive in a chase. Aren't killers suppose to be oppressive in a chase? personally, I find zoning gameplay, fair gameplay. dev that hates old slinger doesn't think so and other survivors claim she has no counter-play.
"I doesn't feel good to have to fight 4 survivors and your own power ."
that last part made me smile. I do agree!
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2829783#Comment_2829783
It was not problem when i play Nemesis. But i started play Demo too, he is also so fun. But when i play on this map, i wanna just give up with Demo.
are you using his barbed glasses? It makes pallet breaking faster, though demo pallet break is pretty slow. Einstein thought demo was over-performing. Its pretty normal to just spam drop pallet vs demo and he kinda just loses. Get used to it.
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@Gamedozer7 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2830290#Comment_2830290
She also take about a second to place birds. 5 seconds after the first bird then 1 second to place and 1 second firing animation giving you a whole second to get that shot off before they repeal the birds and you have to start over. She really counts on survivor not instantly repealing.
Most the time the game ends in a w vs w match and that's the most boring gameplay.
"She also take about a second to place birds."
Oh yeah, I forgot about that. All her actions could use speeding-up. Too clunky to play, Not very fluid.
She is relatively new killer so I wouldn't expect any add-on reworks/base-kit improvements.
W vs W play happens with nearly every killer. I would say she is suppose use her ranged capacity to mitigate its effectiveness but her ranged capacity is a bit lackluster.
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I would say very poor add-ons for a killer. The requirement of needing two hits, 1 for repel and follow-up shot makes her a killer who has somewhat poor snowball capacity.
Cast-time for placing birds is pretty slow and makes her feel clunky to play. it takes 8 seconds to for survivor to repel crows, but she has 5 second cooldown for firing a single crow with 1 second cast time. It means you have a lot of pressure to land the consecutive hit. Stressful power much?
I play her on occasion but I think she would benefit a lot from faster gameplay and add-on pass. non-scaling cooldown per bird use, lower cast time to place crows and more useful add-ons would make her get played more. Her slow-paced gameplay leads her to be boring for some players.
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@firefox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2829644#Comment_2829644
The changes they have proposed are just Qol, they aren't major in any way, shape, or form which is what she needed to not be a D-tier killer. The condemned effect will still pose zero threat. She is basically being released as she was in PTB, not hard to see that.
so the dev be like, let us give Sadako undetectable. Oh by the way, here's a 32 meter lullaby, now 24 meter lullaby to detect her. I wonder how high you have to be to give a killer undetectable and than give the killer a lullaby.
Look at this way, at least they tried to make her better than PTB.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2830049#Comment_2830049
Yeah, those are good examples. The Lucky Break + Iron Will Combo is stronger (and IMO Lucky Break is still overrated), however, you barely see it. And I have never seen Smash Hit outside of Adepts and this just shows that a Perk which activates on Stuns has to be way better than Smash Hit to be useable.
The closest perk that I have seen get used for removing scratch mark is ... no joke boon:shadowstep. I thought that the perk was too situational to get used because the 24 meter effect is too little radius and the killer in many instances can zone the survivor, kick totem and neutralize its effects. I would say without really counting, I would say I see shadow like 1/20 games which honestly is not bad considering some perks you won't see in 100 games.
it seems that removing duration limitation goes long way to make scratch-marks removal perks viable. Perhaps they should buff lightweight to remove scratch-marks entirely. maybe someone would use it.
I am curious of boon:dark theory but I feel like 2% speed boost just is not enough to get survivors to run it and if it was 5-7%, I'd imagine to see every now and again. Who knows though, I did not think I would see shadowstep. Perhaps 2% is good enough but I doubt it.
@GoshJosh said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2830049#Comment_2830049
The difference here is that this is seven seconds of blocking all forms of tracking in one perk - and during a time that the killer cannot move or turn their camera. Lucky Break doesn't stop groans of pain, requiring Iron Will to block sound tracking (as you mentioned). And it runs out after 60 seconds. While stunning with a pallet may not be the norm anymore, I can definitely see survivors being able to get good value out of Parental Guidance with Head On and/or DS.
All I said is that it was far from useless. I'm not arguing that it will be meta, but we might see it more often than you think.
DS+parental guidance is two perks. Head on+Parental guidance is two perks. Often Quick&Quiet is used with head on making it 3 perks. I just do not think the perk effect is valuable. Like I said, closest one scratch removal perk you see used is shadowstep and that one has unlimited duration in relation to totem. Its real synergy is smash hit+this perk but who really runs smash-hit. Its like less common than balance landing and even less common than lithe/sprint burst/overcome not taking dead hard into consideration.
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@GoshJosh said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2829718#Comment_2829718
Far from useless, but is it worth removing a perk slot? "That, detective.. is the right question."
it is not an impactful perk. Lucky break+Iron will already removes scratch marks, sound and blood for 60 seconds and it does not get used. Stunning a killer with a pallet is not common occurrence in normal gameplay. More-over, Smash hit is exhaustion perk that has far more reward for stunning the killer with a pallet.
People that use decisive strike use it for its second chance effect and do not really care about scratch mark removal effects. Quick&quiet+Head on is only realistic application for the perk but Dance with me is already a perk that removes scratch marks for 3 seconds upon exiting a locker and rarely anyone uses it. I doubt upping duration by 7 seconds (4 seconds now) makes much of a difference.
I can only assume it will be a perk that gets reverted by end the year if anyone remembers its existance to begin with.
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@Mandy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2829543#Comment_2829543
thanks for the video...see I had such a hard time trying to explain that noise lol
Lullaby. Does that mean that monitor&abuse does not affect her terror radius?
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFD-brR9kSs@kate_best_girl said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2827248#Comment_2827248
This is such a common hag misconception though. If a survivor is constantly chasing you its a 3v1 and eventually his flashlight will run out and a good hag can play around this to turn the tables on him. People see hag lose 3 gens and assume she must be weak but never take into account the end game and what happens in those two gens
I mean hag players lose to solo players with no flashlights, so good luck ever beating a strong coordinate team with her on outdoor maps. Just do what tru3 solo-Q team does against hag. hag is just low mmr stomp killer. She doesn't work against high mmr strong players. as long as you deny hag their 3 generator, the last two generators are just as easy as first three. It is easy to split pressure a hag on generators because hag's early game setup is vulnerable. you just run at her like tru3 does and loop a 110 m/s m1 killer. if she places a trap, just move to the next loop. Even if hag successfully downs you by zoning you in a corner with traps, The game is already from having 1-2 generators split across the map and the hook timers are too long for hag to successfully get any proxy camp pressure by that point.
as you can see, the game only lasted 8 minutes and 15 seconds with hag getting a collectively 3 hooks and 0 kills. as the video implies, hag is overrated.
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@Leonardo1ita said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2827477#Comment_2827477
In theory kills should be a proxy of skill because you have to snowball as killer in order to win, the problem is that in practice the only efficient way to do so is to tunnel someone out of the game ASAP even in the dirtiest way possible, facecamp, or slug everyone. The only killers that can actually apply pressure by themselves are Pinhead and a few others, but Pinhead is the only one who consistently doesn't have to play territorial or tunnel if he can manage the lament configuration and keep chain hunts going.
slugging is snowballing with the killer. Tunneling can also be considered snowballing as you are attempting to remove one survivor out of the game early on by skipping chases on other survivors. Why are these two problems? Players are acting like MMR changed entire landscape of DBD when all of this was possible before MMR.
problem with facecamping is that unlike tunneling and slugging, facecamping often has very little gameplay interaction between survivor and killer. With tunneling, the interaction between the killer and the survivor is the chase. The same can be said for slugging. you need down the survivor to physically begin slugging. With facecamping, you chase once and it is done deal. It usually just leads to dry matches of draw results. Due to lack of interaction, it ends up not being very fun for the survivor unlike other two.
I'd say larger problem is that most players do not want to play in specific ways to win. Killers in particular want to go for many chases and be rewarded for their short chases through 3 hook kill condition. Ideally, they want the win to feel natural and organic towards gameplay. Tunneling a single survivor out of the game does not feel organic to the gameplay. your really forcing the result to occur. The same can be said for proxy camping+slugging. Twin's proxy camp+slugging gameplay feels too unnatural towards gameplay. That is main reason why I stopped playing them because the wins felt way too hollow for my tastes.
A large reason why I dislike playing weaker killers is because I feel obligated to follow these strategies to stay competitive with my competition. I think this actively drives you away from enjoying killer. for example, when I'm playing bubba, I'm not actively looking to camp with bubba, I'm actively looking to do 12 hooks chase gameplay because the chase interaction is the fun part of dbd. negative killers changes just kill the joy of playing killer and further reinforce the idea of requiring these strategies to produce forced outcomes. I am not sure how to describe this, but changes often rarely affect the the forced outcome elements of these strategies but instead focus on micro-elements of each individual chase. you get actively punished for chasing as a whole with killer so the end result becomes how should you play minimize the amount of chases needed to win as a whole. its very counter-productive to the fun aspect of playing killer.
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@danielmaster87 said:
Anytime we've had a new perk combo that is chase oriented, it's fallen off very quickly. I think Spirit Fury/Enduring started it, and then it everything else practically see no play.
This one will fall off quickly. Scourge hooks are too RNG based to be consistent for MYC. Scourage hook:Pain Resonance only started getting used after they buffed Dead man switch. So I would say that killers now use RNG mechanic to exclusively to utilize Dead man switch since dead man switch is arguably now the best passive game slowdown perk in the game.
Demogorgon with Leprose Lichen(Iri add-on) can give aura-reading for Make your choice without the perk scourage: flood of pain at 100% consistency.
This is actually my demogorgon build. Its what I play now after all-seeing blood wraith nerf. it is my fun killer build now.
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@Thusly_Boned said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2825664#Comment_2825664
I get that, but discouraging camping isn't preventing anyone from camping, just making it a riskier strategy. A nice healthy disincentive wouldn't be the worst thing here.
I absolutely recognize the right of anyone who bought the game to play it in the way they see fit, but when you spend 10+ minutes in queue only to be face camped out in 5 or less, that isn't fun, or healthy for the game. There's that old old saying about the needs of the many outweighing the needs of the few and all that. Basement/Camping Bubba, the most noteworthy exemplar here, is really bad for game health, especially at low MMR where new players are. It the ability to play that way shouldn't be removed, but it should come with an enhanced cost; some risk/reward balance should be maintained.
If I were in a SWF and were Bubba's campee, I would gladly tell my team to leave me, that I would hang on (no pun intended) for as long as I could, and to just pound out the gens and only let the killer get the 1K. And if everyone did that with campers, camping would almost certainly decline naturally, because only getting 1K and 10K BP every match would suck.
In solo, where most people play, camping really sucks, and there is really not much in the way of a disincentive for the killer, since they often don't know a camp is occurring until it is too late.
Maybe make Kindred basekit, as so many have suggested.
I also don't see how SWF would negate the above suggestion, but I may be missing something obvious here.
I don't think its so much about risk vs reward as much as it is to prevent it from being abusable. Adding 200% generator progression speed just makes strategy not viable. It might as well read as "I resign game as killer".
One of comments that developer said in 4th year anniversary when in regards to Keys and Mori is that they said they wanted to make mori's base-kit towards gameplay of the killer. Someone can find clip of this in 4th year anniversary stream but I vividly remember this remark.
A possible version of base-kit mori could be that survivors no longer have hook states and instead the killer gets a mori every time he hooks 3 survivors. It doesn't matter who it is, but on 4th down, the killer can mori a single survivor.
So for example
3 hooks = 1 mori token ->4th down is a mori
6 hooks = 2 mori tokens ->7th down is 2nd mori(The game effectively ends here)
When two survivors are alive, The killer gains ability to unlimited Mori and survivor that is hooked will immediately be sacrificed. In this version of the game, there are no hook timers and no hook states. This could be one way to fix camping hooks.
The killer would be more encouraged to for hooks because standing at hook yields no real rewards and the survivors do not really have any time pressure in regards to saving teammates off hooks. Survivors would have to focus more on winning the chases against killer and prevent themselves from getting hooked to avoid the mori
Obviously, all forms of mori offering would disappear as Mori have become base-kit to the killer.
They would need rework two perks though for this system to work namely these two perks:
Monstrous Shrine and Devour hope.
Monstrous shrine is probably the most useless perk in the entire game. Devour hope can still be gains speed boost after hooking and expose after 3 hooks. Just mori aspect would be redundant with this system.
The only con I can see in this system is that the game for survivor would become more team-based because your success and failure would rely a lot of your teammates to be good at the chase against the killer. This can be either really good or really bad depending on your view on team games.
If the team-aspect of the game is too frustrating for survivor, a possible modification to the system can be that you can only get mori if you've been hooked once, though this does promote the killer tunneling survivors that the killer has hooked.
This is just rough sketch Idea of a possible solution to make the less hook timer dependant and more chase-hook centered.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2826048#Comment_2826048
Which is why if they know what's good for them, they should always support killer buffs. If they want to change the meta they're tired of facing, the weaker killers need to be buffed or the survivor perks need to be nerfed.
We've tried the strategy of just nerfing the top killer. Nurse, Hillbilly, Freddy, Spirit, even Blight with the Compound 32. Every time you nerf the strongest add-on, people are just gonna use the next best thing. Nerf the strongest killer, they're just gonna use the next best one. But that's been done so many times at this point, it's created a stale meta where 1 or 2 killers are viable and 1 or 2 are right beside them simply because they can tunnel/camp the easiest. Everyone below them is absolutely garbage and can't compete against all teams, just the weaker teams.
now a days, Its not even add-ons themselves being no mither-level. its entire base killer power at base-kit being no mither-level. Like why would you expect to see nemesis, a killer that has to hit 3 times to down a survivor over blight? Artist similar design with her ranged crows requiring two consecutive hits to inflict 1 health state. Trickster has laceration mechanic that allows survivor's self-heal on his own power. Cenobite that breaks his own chain anti-loop and survivors manipulating chains to rubberband them on environment for instant breaks.
Now a days, killer powers just sabotage themselves. That is just looking at last 4 killer releases after blight itself. Let us exclude Twins that just keep getting negatives changes for random reasons. It doesn't look like add-on problem for new guys. it looks more like base-kit problem.
Killers that have add-on problems are those that got changed by survivor mains. Like freddy has add-on problem because his good add-ons got nerfed including his base-kit which now sucks. The same can be said for Billy who has add-ons that are like.... Black Grease that only activates when you get blinded or that iri brick that gives billy undetectable after 2 seconds of being in chainsaw sprint. Deathslinger's add-ons were never good. but at least his base-kit wasn't a joke. now it is. Because most of these killer already went through their revision changes, they're unlikely to receive any other changes.
So I would say that changing add-ons is not as great of priority now a days as it is making base-kit killers just better overall. The killers they're changing right now legion and ghostface. they have base-kit mechanics that sabotage themselves. Namely, legion loses a portion of his power gauge when he successfully lands an M1 attack putting his power on cooldown and ghostface loses his entire stalk meter on that survivor takes an m1.
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@danielmaster87 said:
That's why we need to buff more killer add-ons instead of just nerfing the strong ones. That's what the devs did when they buffed Adrenaline Vial. People call that add-on OP now, laughably, but that means it must be seeing as much play as Alchemist's Ring or the blighted animal add-ons. Yes, you're giving the killer another good add-on, but if they feel confident that they can do well with that add-on instead of the same meta add-ons they've been using all along, we'll see more add-on variety. Just like with Huntress. Don't you get tired of every Huntress running Babushka? Maybe if she had some other better add-ons, unlike Wooden Fox, she wouldn't have that same add-on every time.
i mean huntress did have other decent add-ons like... iri head+infantry belt. When it comes to killer add-ons, if the killer add-on is not better than what the killer player currently has available, than why would the player consider choosing a worse add-on unless they're purposely sabotaging their chances to win.
I think the truth is that survivors mains dislike a vast majority of the killer cast hence dev make killer super safe and weak on purpose. Now you get OP post where he is complaining on facing the same killer. Its like imagine the new perk for survivor is No mither. Do you think survivors would switch their super meta build to run new perk No mither? I don't think so.
Survivor players sabotage their own chances of facing a variety of killers.
Why would you expect a killer player to play No-mither level killer?
Survivor players are like, why aren't you playing a more variety of killers?
Killer players: Pikachu face
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@Clevite said:
I have heard Hexy refer to him as the easiest of the strong killers,
I completely agree with hexy's opinion. Many people say blight is super hard and difficult to learn but watch any experienced blight player. do you think they're struggling to utilize his ability? from my personal experience, it took me around 10-20 games after his PTB to get good grasp of his ability.
@BrokenSouI said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2825226#Comment_2825226
I feel like that's probably spirit. You don't need to be right up on them. As long as you can hear footsteps and grunts of pain. You can get in the ball park. And folks have dropped iron will for COH lately.
Blight. There's definitely nuisances to using his power to get hits at loops
I think that is largely misconception as well. Blight's ability have very little nuance. He breaks pallets, than activates his ability after breaking the pallet and than he hits you between loops before you get next loop as survivor. there is very little thought process in using his ability and it is very robotic. The add-on C33 just replaces his manual break with faster pallet break. Its not radical change to his kit. it is just buff in numbers for what blight is already has in base-kit. This is to say that blight without c33 is same blight with 33. Just one is stronger than other.
Its why I found it funny when they nerfed demorgorgon barbed glasses add-on. wow 25% pallet break is unfair but breaking pallets almost as fast enduring spirit fury with minimal cooldown+huge speed. - balanced.
Blight's the killer you go to play when you want feel powerful as killer.
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@Gamedozer7 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2824614#Comment_2824614
See I don't get that because I love playing against Victor its something different and if you win you can kick the little ****er.
I love playing against old deathslinger, but you see, it is not about what you like. its what majority likes. majority dislike twins hence twins bad. many people like playing against blight hence blight is strong. There will always some that opposed popular belief like many survivor mains hate Alchemist ring blight therefore request for it to be nerfed but we know how survivor work.
Many survivor said that spirit collision was bs. they said they'll stop complaining about spirit if collision changed. They changed spirit collision. Survivor mains still bitched about spirit. What do you think will happen when they nerf alchemist ring? You think they'll stop complaining about blight? No, they'll just complain about something else like blighted crow.
The moral of the story is that strong killers are hated. survivor's can't stand losing/accept that they got outplayed. they only stop complaining about a killer when the killer is completely worthless and ineffective. you do get some posts regarding killers but killers are minority of dbd, it is 4vs1 game so its whatever for what killer thinks about the game.
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@Gamedozer7 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2824378#Comment_2824378
Thats the thing why make a clunky killer even more clunky. not to mention a 2% pick rate
answer: survivor's fun. survivor's fun is more prioritize over killer fun. Twins was not fun for survivor. often characters not removed from games, instead you can nerf the character to fictionally remove from the game by making it unfun for the killer to play them, thus the killer gets selected less so the survivors face the killer less meaning they stop complaining about the killer.
Like for example, deathslinger was considered unfun for survivor, so he was nerfed to be less attractive for killer players to play him. Survivors face deathslinger a lot less as a result. The same can be said for other killers like spirit, freddy, old legion etc. etc.