Devil_hit11
Devil_hit11
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@danielmaster87 said:
It gets a little old, having killers, their perks, or their powers get nerfed or have a mass of suggestions calling for their nerfing. A lot of what people say is "X is too strong. It needs a drawback."
First of all, a lot of stuff already has drawbacks. Pop has a measly 45 seconds to be used, and Adrenaline Vial massively reduces your turn rate. But those aren't enough in people's eyes; no, they need to be nerfed again! I digress.
Secondly, why? Why should they have drawbacks? Killer powers are supposed to be meaningful and usable, something that they can't be if there's a drawback. Clown's yellow bottles can speed up the survivors, and Deathslinger's chain can be manipulated heavily and broken by the survivors. Killer perks and add-ons are supposed to straight-up improve the killer; they'd have to do that or there'd be no point in them. So you have add-ons like Pig's crouch add-ons, Trapper's disarm time add-ons, Wraith's uncloak speed add-ons. You also have various killer perks that may or may not be used in the meta. But the moment you give a killer a meaningful advantage in those add-ons or perks, people call for nerfs, especially via the introduction of drawbacks. And I'll tell you: that doesn't work.
We've seen countless ridiculous killer nerfs, clearly based around making the game easier for casual survivors, but made in the spirit of "fixing problematic aspects of the game." But as we've seen with many of those nerfs, they don't even nerf the part that people hated. You can still zone people out with Deathslinger, because guess what? His instascope wasn't the problem. You can still instadown people with Clown's Pinky Finger, because guess what? His bottle count wasn't the problem. You can still injure people with Engineer's Fang, because guess what? His number of chains wasn't the problem. All these nerfs have done is make killers' jobs harder, appease casual survivors, and irritate self-proclaimed competitive survivors because it wasn't "the right kind of nerf". The survivors who died and complained about these killer powers, perks, and add-ons are still doing so.
So you might say, "Drawback-based balancing can still work! We just need the RIGHT ones!" No. Nothing makes it work. Not only should these killer things, especially add-ons, be strong, they should also have no drawbacks. If the effect is so strong that it 'needs' a drawback, don't make it an add-on (or perk or killer power). Just don't do it, because it's not worth the hassle of this never-ending argument. We'll then start complaining that killer add-ons are generally weak, because the strong yet drawbacky ones would no longer be with us, but at least then we don't have to worry about stupid drawbacks. But back to the present, I have not seen one killer perk or add-on that has enough strength that it should require a drawback. Change around add-on rarities if you want, so that the stronger ones make more sense, but they don't need drawbacks. With a lot of these things that have drawbacks, and things that people want to have drawbacks, the drawbacks are so great that nobody even wants to use the thing. Let me give some examples.
Add-ons/perks that currently have drawbacks:
-Last Will (Pig): Increases the ambush attack speed, but increases the charge time.
-Trapper Sack (Trapper): Start with all traps on hand, but can't pick them up once set down.
-Ink Egg (Artist): Gives Artist an additional crow, but they disintegrate quicker.
-Deer Lung (Demogorgon): Increases portal travel speed, but decreases total portals by 2.
-Yakyoke Amulet (Spirit): Phase lasts longer and increases recovery rate, but decreases phasing speed by 15%.
-Iridescent Seal (Plague): When a gen gets done you get vile purge, but vile purge is 20 seconds shorter.
-Surge: Damages nearby generators, but it has to be with a basic attack, and there's a 40-second cooldown.
-Hex: Pentimento: Can relight hexes to create Pentimento, but only once each.
Highly requested drawbacks for add-ons/perks:
-Engineer's Fang (Pinhead): Shouldn't injure.
-Pinky Finger (Clown): Shouldn't expose.
-Flask of Bleach (Clown): Shouldn't slow so much.
-Pop: Should only last less than 45 seconds and be cancelled by Blast Mine.
-NOED: Should require hooks to gain exposed effect.
-Dead Man's Switch: Should last less than 45 seconds and shouldn't work on Artist.
The results we've seen from this kind of balancing have been bad, the proposed ideas using this same system have been worse, and the precedent it sets is very dangerous for the future of the game. If things that are "too strong" should have drawbacks, then we have to come to a consensus on what "too strong" is, and that's certainly not gonna happen. So people will continue wanting drawbacks on things that they deem strong, and the devs will give it to them, because they hate to disappoint, and the goalpost of that will continually move towards weaker add-ons. It seems crazy right now to suggest that "Windstorm needs a drawback" or "Fuming Mix Tape needs a drawback", but hey, those will be seen as too strong to some people, so they need that drawback. That's the direction this kind of drawback-based balancing takes us in. Doesn't matter the skill level of the people making the request, as long as it's popular and follows this easy-way-out system. It is, and will continue to be, disastrous.
I think drawbacks are used as discouragement of using the add-on. Its way of putting add-on in the game, but not making usable. Think of it like killer advertisement.
Let me three examples using billy add-ons
Clearly, they don't want you to use charge reduction add-ons for billy. You get the choice of being 110 m/s, forcing yourself to stun yourself to get a boost or the even more stupid one, forcing yourself to get flashlight blinded. Genius add-on design.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2916405#Comment_2916405
Yup basically.
Most the buffs they do on the lower tier killers such as Ghostface or Legion while yes an improvement, still leaves them weak and ultimately still isn't getting them anywhere close to "viable" per say. Even if we were extremely generous and said they were B tier now, B tier in DBD is trash tier anyway and relies on the survivors making a ton of mistakes to win. I'd argue that not only B but even A tier killers can play a literal perfect game and still lose, that's how bad the balance problems are.
They don't realize that their entire balance philosophy is flawed.
If you noticed on their post they called low mmr games "unfair" while calling high mmr matches "tough" and "challenging". Quite ridiculous when it's the exact opposite. Lower mmr matches are tough or challenging because they haven't got good at the game yet while high mmr matches are the unfair ones. They've got everything totally backwards.
Lower mmr matches are tough or challenging because they haven't got good at the game yet while high mmr matches are the unfair ones. They've got everything totally backwards.
completely agree on that one.
Even if we were extremely generous and said they were B tier now, B tier in DBD is trash tier anyway and relies on the survivors making a ton of mistakes to win. I'd argue that not only B but even A tier killers can play a literal perfect game and still lose, that's how bad the balance problems are.
Yeah I would say that killers B-tier or lower killers are entirely reliant on survivor being playing poorly to win on every element of the game. I'd say A-tier what I refer to as Strong in DBD is the killer having some influence on the outcome of the match but only about half or little more than half the time, say 2/3(66%) of the time. S-tier being that the killer's skill entirely decides the outcome of the match. in reality, its suppose to mean that for every 10 matches you play, you should win 10/10 of them. I don't think any killer is truly winning 10/10 matches so I do not think S-tier killers really exist(again this is all my opinion) but you could definitely argue in the past that DBD did have some S-tier elements for killers... like old Ebony Mori's and old nurse.
With that being said, I don't think Legion or Ghostface is moving anywhere. I'd say Ghostface is probably going to be worse from playing PTB, most likely a C-tier killer somewhere around sadako/pig level. Legion is better...in the sense that he is physically down someone in his ability, but I think his counter-play is too easy without going into too much detail about it. He might be able to win average teams so perhaps B-tier but most likely still just a strong C-tier killer at best.
The strange aspect of legion's rework is that his best add-on is yellow meme bloodpoint farm add-on(sleeping pills). It increases the duration of feral frenzy by 10 seconds and this is like 2 green mural sketchbooks+1 yellow sketchbook. The drawback of moving at 115% m/s is not really drawback because of his buff where he gains 0.2 m/s per hit. You move at 120% m/s if you hit first person which should always occur otherwise, why in earth did you activate your ability? To put into perceptive, its like speed-limit billy being billy best add-on. They're marketing him as BP-farm machine.
I think you can see where I'm going with this. Enticing killers with more BP doesn't make me want to play weaker killers in losing matches. Playing weak killers is borderline demoralizing. I rather play strong killers because they're fun to play. possibility to win every match is more important. Don't think legion or Ghostface really give you the possibility to win every match, hence why most low-tier killers are not seen that much at higher MMR(low-variety for survivor).
Shortage of killer is by product of killers not being fun to play because they don't feel powerful. Not a bloodpoint problem.
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@dugman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2915736#Comment_2915736
A permanently undetectable 115% speed killer is probably a bit too good. I could maybe see him moving at 110% or even 108% though.
laugh wraith and ghostface.
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@Blueberry said:
Well the balancing of the game essentially ignores the imbalance for high mmr killer which is the root of the problem.
- Devs focus the balance on low mmr survivors
- This leads to unfair matches for high mmr killers
- Those killers leave the game or switch to survivor
- Now those high mmr survivors have less high mmr killers to face
- This causes a slow trickle of more and more lower mmr killers being forced to face those high mmr survivor groups because there aren't enough high killers left to match the demand. Supply and demand imbalance.
- This leads to unfair matches for mid/lower mmr killers and longer queues for the mid/lower mmr survivors as well since the higher mmr survivors are dipping into their pool of killers now as well
- Ultimately leading to unfair/bad matches and longer queue times for the lower mmr survivors that continuously gets worse
- So by trying to cater balance around the lower common denominator of players they actually end up completely counter productive and doing entirely the opposite.
Lesson to take away here is that this is why you don't balance from the bottom up, you do the top down. Balancing from the bottom up simply does not work.
You know whats most funny aspect of this? the dev think that reducing MMR-cap is going make survivors face more variety of killers.. but the reality why there is no variety of killers is because killers are too weak and can't get to that MMR with their skill because they're balancing for * most * killer powers is so atrocious.
Instead of trying to play around with matchmaking, they should be making changes to killer so that killers can physically win the game with their own skill to be able to compete at that level of play organically.
The lack of killers comes from the lack of fun playing killer. They're not making killer more fun to play. For last year or so, they've been making killer less fun to play. Anything that is fun to play is just getting deleted from killer side. referencing @Adjatha comment.
Deathslinger, fun to play? Deleted
Spirit, fun to play? Deleted
Freddy, fun to play? Deleted
Billy, fun to play" Deleted
Pinhead enginner fang? Deleted
Pinky finger clown? Pending Deletion
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Then you have these killer updates like ghostface that aren't going to make much of difference. they're much faster at erasing impactful killer add-ons and killer powers than doing anything positive with killer.
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sad hemorrhage went more safe. At least killer changes are generally mostly positive for once.
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pinhead needs improvements to his 1vs1. rubber banding chains on environment for instant breaks and walking through the chains for instant breaks is not good for killer. There is not enough reward for landing his ability.
generators go way too fast in general, so adding secondary objective in the form of the box helps a lot. I just think that for lower-levels of play, adding secondary objective for when survivors are not efficient at objective might be too strong so maybe his passive should be weaker at base-kit and stronger with add-ons and perk synergy. I don't really like the negative changes to the add-ons, it made them very lackluster.
@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2914174#Comment_2914174
Pretty much this. He might be better to face when playing in a 4 man SWF, but not everyone is playing in a 4 man SWF (and I doubt Killers will give the conter: "Then play in a 4 man SWF!").
But for me, the interaction with Franklins/Hoarder and the Box is the most annoying thing. This should not be the case IMO. However, I think that the Devs want to keep it in the game. And Pinhead-Players want to keep it in as well. And I think that this is the main reason why the Add Ons which make solving the Box take longer have been nerfed - the Devs dont want to kill the actual combo, so they nerf the next best thing. Which also affects every Pinhead who does not run Hoarder/Franklins.
And overall, I think he is pretty boring to face. When he came out on the PTB I only played like 1 hour of the PTB instead of the whole evening, because Pinhead was so boring to play against.
But I also dont really know how to really fix anything without making him bad.
"I also dont really know how to really fix anything without making him bad."
You don't need fix anything, He is already bad but has a lot of potential to be strong. unfortunately, since a lot of survivor dislike him based off this thread, He is probably going remain lackluster.
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I think what it boils down to for COH is that killers "feel" like they NEED an instant down, a fast recovery animation or fast-gap closing ability(that can hit survivor between loops from SB-hit) to be competitive.
Ultimately, it feels bad to earn a hit as killer, suffer attack animation recover, survivor getting large lead on killer and the killer having to wait a long time before they get a chance to get another hit. Its too slow for game-tempo especially generators.
The way I feel about it is that health states are like a loaded-gun. The gun when it fires is high impact, but it takes long time to reload the gun. I feel like the gun is too high impact when its loaded. when you have health-states against a lot of killers, you have a lot of power as survivor and can make a lot of errors without killer having much input them. When everyone is injured, there are sometimes specific gameplay moment where you wish you had a health state but you don't, so sometimes slug snowballs can occur that would been prevented with a key health-state moment. In general I would say a lot of toxic T-bagging survivor flashlight clicking from survivor tends to come from health-states and bodyblocking.
The way they balance health states is that they make it hard to heal so by the end of the match, if the killer is applying a lot of pressure and getting hits quickly, the ending of the game is everyone injured. it leads to that so-called... no heal meta where healing is less common and more difficult to pull off so everyone end up being instant down as a result from killer gettings hit fasters than survivor being able to heal+pallet drains. COH makes reloading the gun faster and makes health-states accessible throughout the match and killers just don't like it because its drains their time efficiency too much. too much impact from hit->recovery->hold forward for a while->pallets.
I personally wish that health states were less obnoxious to play against as killer, so I kinda wish more killers had access to instant downs easier or have shorter recovery animation or less sprint burst so that more consecutive hits were possible.
that guy is correct in the video. He forgot mention that med-kits are obnoxious for same reason that COH is obnoxious.
he has two errors in that video
1) mangled is not 25%, it is 20%. This was weakened when they weakened general healing and self-care
2) Typically, killer time is not perfectly symmetrical to 1-4 ratio. that is large exaggeration. At its best case scenario, its 1-3 because for example, if a survivor takes a hit, hold-w(forward) for 20 seconds, the survivor looping is not doing a generator and other 3 are, so you earn 60 seconds. This is very idealistic and perfect situation for survivor. On average, its about 2x-1, 1.5x-1. Depends on strength of survivor team.
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The survivor games feel harder, but killers are not as... refined. really strange. The killer players are not as sharp. Killer games are generally easier. It doesn't feel like your playing against 4 really strong survivors. its more like 1-2 typical strong with 1-2 somewhat strong but not as strong players. otz might be doing 50 kill streaks soon.
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@TWiXT said:
Simple:
Cruel Limits not only blocks all vaults within the 32 meters of it for 30 seconds, but also destroys any pallet within that range regardless of their state (down or up).
Basically this clears all obstacles for chase against a killer who gets a gen repaired in their face for 32 meters, and makes doing so a much more dire situation for the survivors. 1 gen done = 1/5th of the maps viable vaults and pallets gone!
That's how I'd buff it, and it only seems fair tbh.
Otherwise... if not destroying pallets, have it at least block them for 45 seconds or for 30 seconds, same time for the vaults, the reason being that you just finished a gen and called the killer to you... are you honestly expecting no retribution? The idea is that the survivors essentially trade the benefit of completing their objective with the detriment to their escape possibilities. That being said, While I still believe outright destroying the pallets (of which there's usually an abundance of) is the correct and more powerful advantage for the killer, I'm willing to compromise as long as they are blocked in the same range as well, and for more time preferably due to the fact that "God Pallets" exist, but I understand if they are only blocked for the same 30 seconds that vaults are.
I think 32 meters destroying every pallet on a double-floor map might be a bit to strong. Imagine the game map. you destroy like 10 pallets from 1 gen popping. I mean, that is pretty good for my archive challenges...
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Make it break standing pallets in a 24 meter area.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2913032#Comment_2913032
So if you just break all of the breakable walls, it's balanced? Not a good argument. Also, the gens are too far apart, at least once the middle gen has been done, a game-ending thing to have happen to the killer. You see the same thing on Gas Heaven where you do one middle gen, and the map is irreparably split. And "just defend it" isn't an option. If you defend the gen too hard, they'll just push on other gens til you lose interest in that one, and then when you leave they push in on that one. Survivors aren't so one-minded like even survivor mains like to think.
gas heaven is way bigger map and in that map, when you complete the middle in garage generator, you get that strong window from garage opening which is pure time-waste window for a lot of killers. Gas heaven can have safe strong filler pallets and strong tilesets with no breakable walls. with dead dog saloon, there is no reward for survivors completing top generators. in many ways, you can consider that generator loss from the start. There are some killers that can defend it... like... nurse and maybe hag, but you should not go out of your way to really defend it. Bottomline is that you should treat generators as resource similar to how survivors treat pallets as resource. Not every generator is worth defending unless your going for 4k at 5 gens challenge which won't happen vs strong survivor teams anyway.
On dead dog saloon, you have option to make problematic areas weaker. On say fracture cowshed, you do not have choice to make loops weaker. They're just that strong with no possible way to change it. Not saying breakable walls are good way to balance maps but for that map in particular, breakable wall fix problematic areas of that map and make the map pretty killer-favored if the killer is remotely good.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2912997#Comment_2912997
How is it not survivor sided when there's basically no weak pallets, the gens are spread far, and the main building has 3 strong windows, and one of those is a god window until the breakable wall is broken?
you do realize that this map is one of strongest killer maps right for simple fact that most of filler pallets are unsafe and can be won by basic m1 killer. you'd wish fracture cowshed takes a lesson from this map.
I would say there are 6 major time-wasting tiles that the killer has to watch out for.
Window after going up Staircase
Window that is facing Staircase
Shack pallet
The corner-tower pallet
The extended tiles, generally a jungle-gym like structure that has 2 windows 1 pallet and extended T-L wall with breakable wall.
Apart from Shack pallet and that corner-tower pallet, most of these structures can be made unsafe by breaking breakable wall. in fact every time I load into this map, The 3 breakables that I end up breaking is that breakable wall on far edge jungle gym window, the breakable wall on bottom floor window and the breakable wall on top of staircase.
gen spread is not far. a easy 3 gen you can do is on platform gen and other two generator on backfield. Your suppose ignore top generator in main building because that building is safest part of the map for survivor.
When they showed map statistics for midwich elementary school being deadliest killer map, I thought that dead dog saloon would be deadliest map.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2911592#Comment_2911592
That's a fair concern too. My friends and I 4 staged a comp Twins last night. But yeah, lower the cap and put us against some poor no slowdown Pig or something. I don't know how this will be better. Guess we'll have to wait and see.
I don't like the idea of lowering the cap. The cap is intended to prevent long matchmaking times, not for chill matches. I mean the reason why there is low killer variety is because people do not want to play weak killers against strong players...sigh never mind at that part.
I'm surprised that the kill-rate is 50%.. but I guess that makes sense when only strong killers get played at higher level.
The 80% kill-rate made me completely chuckle on emblem system. I'm not surprise at all on that one. I'm also amazed that lowering the time from 5->1 minute was such drastic difference in quality of matches. Never would expected that on day 1 test.
Day 2 was my favorite test and I can clearly see why.
I do like ending part for survivor team rating and backfilling. that looks very promising.
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@Faulds said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2908122#Comment_2908122
I don't think that the injured survivors requirement is the problem. You can't just get an exhausted effect for free on the whole team by just hooking one survivor.
Having used blood echo on plague, it is actually quite good. Whether they overcleanse or get surprised by the exhaust... it really comes biting them in the back.
Clown and Huntress exhaustion add-ons didn't need to be gutted like that in my opinion. Exhaustion perks are supposed to be bonus. I don't understand why it would be such an issue to give killers adequate counters to something that makes survivor stupidly stronger... for free.
I mean survivor need equip an exhaustion perk. its not free. The killer is equipping a perk slot to potential nullify survivor perk slots.
All perks are suppose to be free bonuses, not just exhaustion perks. The drawback is that you only get to pick 4. I would say that blood echo falls in line with chase perks like brutal strength, enduring spirit fury etc. For a chase perk, its inconsistent value makes it not worth selecting on pretty much all killers.
I'd say only killer who would make great use out of blood echo if it was not inconsistent perk would be Nurse. Canceling dead hard could be a time-asset for her. I would say buffing blood echo is mostly buffing a possible nurse perk. I would rather use m1 plaster fix chase perks than use blood echo. Its just too much of luxury-type perk for killer in my opinion. Don't think it will ever be meta at all. Niche perk that killer-player that enjoy stacking chase perks might use.
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@Faulds said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2907912#Comment_2907912
Is it that hard to understand? I made it clear: killers would feel better with a good exhaustion counter. DMS was trash before it got buffed. Maybe Blood echo could have the same treatment and become incredibly good after the right changes.
I'd say its issues are that it does not activate when survivor is healthy. Its too much of setup to injure every survivor and than hook a survivor when everyone is injured.
Even for Legion who injures survivors much more easily, Its hard for them to get value out of the perk. I would say for other killers to even consider running this perk, It would need to be changed to work on healthy and Injured survivors.
Plague really only one that gets to use this perk at full & consistent value and that is only when survivor specifically choose to not cleanse. Its not that counter are not developed, Its that they're purposely weak and safe. huntress used to have 90 sec exhaust hatchets and clown had solvent jug exhaust bottles, so those got complained about presumably from countering dead hard. Ever since, exhaustion was dialed down.
you do not see this perk talked about much because its situational and rarely anyone uses it from my experience.
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respawn and changing positions is a perk. it is called hex:undying. it used to work 4 times. it was changed to be only once.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2905132#Comment_2905132
No, you did want him condemned to a sorry, weak state. Because anything less than what he originally was is always gonna be weaker when we know darn well he actually needed buffs.
Legion just got his fatique reverted from 4->3 seconds after 3 years. April 2019 was when he got changed. Given at the pace that dev change things, You'll probably need to wait like minimum 2 years for deathslinger to get changes/revert.
"If there's no mindgames for the killer, especially since the community nerfs any killer that does have mindgames, does survivor really take that much skill?"
I think we both know answer to that question.
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nothing changed for him, he is worse now assuming no changes from PTB.
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did you watch the video. He played last 21 games during no MMR tests. He hasn't done a single streak ever since MMR was implemented.
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@danielmaster87 said:
Killer buffs first. If they can beat SWF, we definitely know they can beat solos.
pretty sure the survivor icons will happen before they ever improve any killer in any significant way. I'm semi excited for icons because at least than, dev and survivor will less execuses for why they're making safe/weak killers.
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he just needs revert on his base-kit. He'll still be easy to do generator against therefore lose a majority of his games against strong teams but at least he'll be fun to win chases with.
4.6 is pointless if your gun power is a joke and 30 meter lullaby is even worse than running current M&A deathslinger, so no thanks on those changes.
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@Brokenbones said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2902083#Comment_2902083
With old spirit you physically couldn't "manipulate sound" against her because while injured you emit constant loud sound cues that give away your position. People adapted to this by running Iron Will since it's the only perk that does anything about it consistantly (There are other perks, but they're conditional). You could also crouch which sometimes worked against non stridor spirits but it was very inconsistant from my experience as most killers know survivors don't just disappear
So Spirits ran Stridor to counter Iron Will which was being used to counter her.
And so people who didn't run Iron will were double screwed because not only were their grunts of pain still audible but it was even louder than before making "manipulating your sound" twice as hard, maybe even impossible depending on the circumstances.
Personally the better argument to make about old spirit isn't "just manipulate sound" it would be "just never be injured". Easier said than done vs old spirit tho.
I'm in the camp that she def needed changes. Whether the changes she got are "too much" is completely subjective. If the only thing that made her good was forcing survivors to guess then to me she was never a well designed killer to begin with. Thankfully, that's not all she was about.
I am uncertain for what aspect of spirit's power is unfair in your first paragraph. Are you trying argue that your suppose to be untouchable in deadzone(a area of the map where no pallets/windows exist) to outplay the spirit? The killer counter-play is not suppose to be consistent. If the counter-play is 100% full proof, than ironically, the killer has no counter-play to the survivor's actions.
Spirits ran Stridor to neutralize effects of Iron will.
Survivor that did not run Iron will were unaffected by Stridor because they were already emitting sound without Stridor being used. In your version, Your believing that the spirit having any sound whatsoever is auto-win for the spirit. In that case, The spirit is still unfair for you and that changes did nothing. You never learned to play against Spirit in first place.
From my conclusion, Killer gameplay is not suppose to be reactionary. The gameplay is suppose to be mindgame based i.e prediction based and unpredictable. A big reason why a lot of the killers are weak at the chase is because a lot of pallets in the game either god pallets or safe pallets. The survivor can slide on reaction towards killer gameplay. Just look at a map like Gideon Meat Packing Plant with so many safe pallets.
Spirit's power changed the gameplay dynamic for survivor to be unpredictable. Now with audio cues, dominating spirit is trivial. Spirit is largely overrated killer now. Its why no one plays her anymore besides spirit-lovers like @TheGannMan
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@Brokenbones said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2902000#Comment_2902000
You say "take advantage of her lack of information"
Meanwhile you hear Ash Williams groaning at 800% volume because the Spirit had stridor. Even without Stridor, to even pull off what you're implying was her "counter play" you needed iron will/lucky break/fixated - perks like that. Perk reliant counterplay isn't exactly great if you ask me but it is what it is.
I'm sorry but most players who played old Spirit didn't play base spirit with random perks - they played Stridor Spirit with anti-healing perks usually and it's obvious why.
Maybe this is just me so the following comment is me speaking for myself: Playing Spirit isn't a guessing game. I don't have problems hearing survivors. Yes Iron will is annoying but once I've been hit by it, I know it's there and can adjust accordingly. Iron will doesn't make survivors just disappear.
Also again the information survivors have is limited, you hear which direction she is moving but not exactly where she is. It's still very possible to use it mid chase.
Blueberry's entire post is saying that survivor's counter-play towards spirit is related to manipulating sound. You use sound to manipulate your location so that spirit has to make guesses on you as opposed to the survivor making guesses on Spirit. In some sense, he is somewhat arguing that loudness of the survivor has little impact on survivor's being able to extend chase against spirit.
The perks that affect tracking such as Iron will+Lucky break are unfair for spirit. They make the chase survivor-sided against spirit. They largely destroy what her gameplay is about. That is my guess for why spirit vanished after Stridor changes.
"Also again the information survivors have is limited, you hear which direction she is moving but not exactly where she is. It's still very possible to use it mid chase."
The survivor's information towards phase walk is not limited. It is in fact perfect. There is zero uncertainty in spirit's position in phasewalk. Survivor's gameplay towards current spirit is perfectly reactionary. The bottom line is that she is no longer invisible at all. The reason why they did not add dust is because it was not required.
As Blueberry says, The speed is all she has now. If she did not have speed, She would be among worst killers in the entire game. The speed is not worth it because she moves at 110% and her pallet/tileset play is awful against strong players. So yes, She was gutted, like most killers that face negative changes.
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@GannTM said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2901911#Comment_2901911
Do people not get bored of using Blight and Nurse like that every game?
Hate to break it to you, but spirit is not as strong anymore. When alternative is losing or playing nurse & blight, players choose alternative. I have not seen much spirit ever since they weaken Stridor. Its like as soon as Stridor was weakened, Spirit disappeared.
Spirit got demoted to an art-appreciation relic that nobody wants to play. I remember 3 years ago, her pick-rate was like highest in the game, even past huntress. Now she is a true ghost. Just another Billy.
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@BrokenSouI said:
Yesterdays testing was ######### aweful. I got nothing but "rank 1s" But it's like they were all babys.
It was like shooting fish in a barrel. It was far too easy.
remember, they used to use ranks to determine how good you were for many years. Very obvious that grade based matchmaking does not match survivors based off skill.
grade based matchmaking is casual queue that some players were asking for. you can stomp weak survivor players in this queue and your teammate as survivor are..... well a large liability such that playing survivor is like having to 1vs1 the killer. you have to do 5 gens and do long chases. completely carry your team in a lot of cases. very bad solo-q survivor experience and laughable killer queue experience. It makes every killer look like S-tier.
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@[Deleted User] said:
I'm glad people had fun yesterday. The reaction has seemed mixed when MMR was tight (2 and 3) as well as the free for all (yesterday).
I think BHVR needs to separate the queues and be done with it. They'll never reach a good, workable solution throwing all playstyles into the same queue. I would uninstall the game if yesterday's matchmaking became permanent.
I dislike stomping weaker players. So I have to agree with your post.
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@Blueberry said:
"Tl;Dr (The community seems to hate healing, but when the no heal meta existed and people did gens, we hated that too. So what is the real issue)"
Because they should need to heal, it should just take enough time to allow pressure for the killer on the map.
The only reason the heal meta is hated now is because it is too efficient and doesn't waste enough time. For example, if the heal meta run now was using self care everyone would be fine with it. That's because it's actually slow, allows the killer to pressure the map and wastes multiple perk slots.
So the community does not hate the healing, they hate how overly efficient and fast it is. CoH isn't taking multiple perk slots, has infinite uses, and is too fast.
How do we fix this? Bring CoH down to a balanced level like Self Care and make staying injured actually dangerous (it hasn't been for years).
self-care feels terrible to use. I genuinely hate having teammate that use it. Self-caring twice is 64 seconds, that is nearly an entire generator worth of progression. Self-care is terrible perk when it comes to winning survivor games and should not be balanced around.
It would be much better if they just weaken health state sprint bursts to shorten wasted time and giant map balance from shift+W. It would be better that they actually buff killer chases either by improving their power or weaken safe pallets. I know that people harp of Gideon's Meat Packing Plant with 40 safe pallets, but most of other maps have just as strong safe pallets that can be optimized with proper window looping.
Having strong killers powers would help with making Gideon's 40 safe pallets into unsafe pallets.
One thing I will say is that they should consider applying self-care debuff on med-kits and each med-kit heals at lower speeds.
E.G Grey = 26 sec, yellow = 24 second, Purple at 24, green at 20. I could see that as change to weaken healing. med-kits are pretty powerful.
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@madradfox said:
OhTofu's recent video explains quite well how busted her range addon is:
Take a look at what happens at 10:39 if you still have your doubts about the whole range/speed issue.
nurse range add-ons never increased blink movement speed. Nurse has max blink phase time. I believe its like 1.5 seconds, basically you cannot exceed that amount. so if you blink really far away, it will make you go faster to get your destination faster. Either way, 1.5 seconds is a lot of the time for survivor to react, it poses no issues.
Fun fact, Nurse did have add-ons that increase blink movement speed. One of them was grey called wooden horse. Nurse for reference moves at 333,33% speed in blinking. The add-on increased her blink movement speed slightly. If I remember correctly, it increased blink movement speed by 50%. 50% moving at 333% m/s is like 500% movement, so yes she did have instant blinks. she had a purple add-on that double her speed, but it reduced 1 blink charge. old nurse add-ons.... just about all of them were like ultra-rare power-level.
haha maybe they should bring one of those add-ons back as UR so you can experience good old nurse. If you think nurse is hard now a days to escape, you should seen her like 3 years ago.
10:39 is normal blink. its describing what I said about nurse's sphere of influence. they're really fast up-close and charge quickly. if your good at nurse, you'll usually get those hits almost consistently It is why she is strong. But hey, lowest kill-rate in the game, must be trash killer according devs, wraith over-performing. wink wink.
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test 1 6 and 7 felt like easiest tests. 2-3 and somewhat 4 were best tests in term of matchmaking of equal skill. I would prefer they keep current matchmaking with their back-filling improvements.
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@egg_ said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2898517#Comment_2898517
Disagree on the addon dependant, at least for public matches. I almost always play her addonless, and those rare times I end up facing really good survivors yes, I do get defeated, but I always end up with 4-7 hooks, while running no slowdowns either. Adn that's really map dependant too (badham and yamaoka being the maps I perform the worst in). Most of my games are 2-4ks. But that's still beyond the point. Addons for a killer are fine when they complement their power in a good way. The numbers I posted show that on average, cooldown addons are well rounded, strengthening the power without overdoing it. Range addons seem simply too busted.
As others have pointed out, it is difficult to find a 'balanced' solution because we're talking about nurse. I just don't think that these addons are healthy in their current state - just the fact that in terms of raw numbers, Heavy Panting is so much better than Fragile Wheeze (same rarity) + Dark Cincture together, is beyond ridiculous imho.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2898646#Comment_2898646
The reason why I did the calculations like that is because we introduce far too much uncertainty if we start taking into consideration variables such as breaking line of sight. I wanted to show the baseline of the numbers. My counterargument to what you said is exactly the fact that maps aren't infinite size, which forces them not to run in straight lines forever. This in turn makes any added distance gained even more valuable, so the fact that a strong killer like nurse 'lost' the mindgame, and is able to close the gap immediately with one single blink without wasting any time is simply broken.
Also, I agree that my maths were basically how an AI would work, but I think you should consider that most of the added time of a human player would be spent walking at normal movement speed (3.85 m/s), and not slowed down. So, unless the nurse literally starts walking in the opposite direction from the survivor (which I deem very unlikely in the situation of a chase, because as a killer you should have an idea of the general direction the survivor ran), the survivor gains distance too slowly for the nurse not to be able to close the gap with a single blink, since she does it diagonally, in a straight line.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2898312#Comment_2898312
That's not what I said but you do you. Considering you said you didn't even bother reading, let alone understanding the comparisons I tried to make, I don't think I have any interest in continuing this conversation.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2898613#Comment_2898613
I expected some dumb commments, but only a few people are actually trying to argue in a normal way :( Namely, the two people I'm replying in this same comment. I appreciate them
look at this way, if your within 20 meters of a nurse, a ranged add-on is not impacting her ability to blink on you. Range add-ons only matter if your further than 20 meters away from her first blink. The extra range also does not come into play for 2nd blink because nurse cannot charge fully in chain blinks. In essence, if you run out of map, there is no purpose in running a range add-on.
This is why some nurse players do not use range add-ons, but instead use double recharge add-ons. the reason being is that they can travel 20 meters with first blink and by the time they recover from fatique, they can blink again. Eventually, you will run out of map if you are staying outside of nurse's first blink range. Ranged add-on are not unfair, they just help optimize nurse's time like recharge.
The difference between her and other killers when it comes to shift-W is that holding shift-W is skillful interaction between survivor and killer player. You can compare pig's hold-W vs nurse. Pig is running forward mindlessly into forced god pallet kicks. Nurse is using her blink skills to optimize the chase. a funny comment that survivor mains would sometime say is that oppressive anti-loop killers like old slinger or artist created hold-W meta. The actual killer that created hold-W meta is nurse because she is the one killer where you cannot use loop. Your forced to shift-W in a skillful manner to outplay her blinks.
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@egg_ said:
This is not going to be a rant thread, because I actually did some maths and therefore I'm bringing some quality data to support my thesis, so brace yourselves because this is going to be a long thread, with numbers too. A lot of stuff will be repeated and/or redundant, partly to understand what numbers I'm using (so you can scroll back and see how I calculated them), partly for myself since I wrote this in pieces.
First of all, we will need some data. More specifically, power times and movement speeds, that can be gathered here https://deadbydaylight.fandom.com/wiki/Sally_Smithson#Power_Trivia and here https://deadbydaylight.fandom.com/wiki/Movement_Speeds#The_Nurse
I will expose the assumptions I'm making:
- we are taking into consideration raw distances. This to avoid discussions like "yes but break line of sight and double back" or stuff like that, which has no value whatsoever in the points I'm going to make;
- the nurse 'example' we are using will have no 'dead times': therefore, we are looking at the optimal use of movement blink charging times (no seconds wasted between the moment the blinks are ready and the moment the nurse starts charging them, no overcharging of the first blink: everything will be immediate), while always holding W (always moving forward) towards the survivor;
- we are assuming range addons are working as intended. More specifically, as stated in the pwoer trivia, a blink maximum time is 1.5 seconds. The addons descriptions only mention that the charge time is increased (maintaining the normal charge time / meters ratio) but not the blink time, which is capped at 1.5 seconds. Therefore I assume that for blinks longer than 20 meters, the cap will always be 1.5 seconds per blink -> changes the blink movement speed to compensate;
- the second blink is assumed to last 1 second and to cover the full distance of 12 meters;
- last assumption: I'm taking into consideration the "worst case scenario" for the nurse, which is having to catch up after blinking twice and lunging, giving her the longest fatigue + full recovery of both blinks.
So let's start with the numbers. At first I will analyze the distances covered while using no addons, dark cinture alone, fragile wheeze alone, and both the addons together. Then we will compare the results with range addons. The formula used is simple:
Total distance = Fatigue duration × Fatigue movement speed + Walking time × Walking movement speed + Blink charge time × Blink charge movement speed + Blink range (max) + Chain blink time × Chain blink movement speed + Second blink range (max)
The fatigue for the aforementioned scenario lasts 3.5 seconds, at which the nurse moves at 0.96 m/s. The distance covered is 3.36 m (constant).
Charging the first full blink takes 2 seconds, at which the nurse moves at 2.89 m/s. Space covered = 5.78 m.
The first blink lasts 1.5 seconds and covers 20 meters. The second blink is assumed to last around 1 second and cover 12 meters (^assumption). To charge it, the nurse will use 1.2 seconds at which she moves at 1.16 m/s. Distance covered: 1.392 m.
Total fixed distance: 42.532 m; total fixed time: 9.2s
The only variable in this case is the time that the nurse consumes walking normally after fatigue, which is affected by the addons. Therefore, I will calculate the single cases and add up the fixed values to each one of them:
- no addons: walks for 2.5 seconds at normal movement speed of 3.85 m/s. Distance covered: 9.625 m. Total distance covered: 52.157 m. Total time: 11.7 s. Avg speed: 4.46 m/s
- dark cincture: walks for 1.7 s. Distance covered: 6.545 m. Total distance covered: 49.077 m. Total time: 10.9 s. Avg speed: 4.50 m/s.
- fragile wheeze: walks for 1.3 s. Distance covered: 5.005 m. Total distance covered: 47.537 m. Total time: 10.5 s. Avg speed: 4.53 m/s.
- both addons: walks for 0.5 s. Distance covered: 1.925 m. Total distance covered: 44.457 m. Total time: 9.7 s. Avg speed: 4.58 m/s.
Now lets compare this data with a survivor's data, namely the survivor that has just been M1ed and is running in a straight line away from the nurse. The survivor's data is obviously easier to calculate. They will have a fixed 6 m/s speed boost for 2 seconds (fixed 12 meters), then run at 4 m/s for the remaining time. I'm not considering any decelarion aspect (is there even any?): the transition between the 6 m/s and the 4 m/s is instant.
- no addons: 12 + (11.7 - 2) × 4 = 50.8 m. Distance difference: 1.357 m.
- dark cincture: 12 + (10.9 - 2) × 4 = 47.6 m. Distance difference: 1.477 m.
- fragile wheeze: 12 + (10.5 - 2) × 4 = 46 m. Distance difference: 1.537 m.
- both addons: 12 + (9.7 - 2) × 4 = 42.8 m. Distance difference: 1.657 m.
This means that the better addon you use, the more distance the nurse covers, giving a smaller window of reaction to the survivor. Bear in mind that we're not taking into account the lunge too, as it would happen instantly after the data provided. But anyway, as you can see, the actual difference between using and not using addons is merely 30 cms. The 'actual' difference is that everything is sped up as it takes place in a smaller window of time. However, this is not what this thread is looking into. This data is used as a source of comparison with the actual point of the thread, which I'm going to explain now.
When we take into consideration range addons (Heavy Panting and Kavanagh's Last Breath), we intoduce another variable: charge time. However, most of the numbers used until now stay the same.
- Heavy Panting only: we add 0.4 seconds to the first blink charge time with a speed of 2.89 m/s = 1.156 m, and 4 meters to the blink range. Since no addons are affecting the blink recharge time, we take the previous no addons data and simply add this. Final data is: 57.313 m in 12.1 s. Average movement speed: 4.74 m/s.
- KLB only: we add 0.6 seconds to the first blink charge time with a speed of 2.89 m/s = 1.734 m, and add 6 meters to the total distance = 59.891 m in 12.3 s. Avg speed: 4.87 m/s.
- Both addons: we add 1 second to charging time at 2.89 m/s = 2.89 m, and add 10 meters to the total range. Total distance covered: 65.047 m in 12.7 s. Avg speed: 5.12 m/s.
- Heavy Panting + Dark Cincture: Total Distance = 49.077 + 1.156 + 4 = 54.233 m. Time = 10.9 + 0.4 = 11.3 s. Avg speed: 4.80 m/s
- Heavy Panting + Fragile Wheeze: Total distance = 47.537 + 1.156 + 4 = 52.693 m. Time = 10.5 + 0.4 = 10.9 s. Avg speed: 4.83 m/s.
- KLB + Dark Cincture: Total Distance = 49.077 + 1.734 + 6 = 56.811 m. Time = 10.9 + 0.6 = 11.5 s. Avg speed: 4.94 m/s
- KLB + Fragile Wheeze: Total distance = 47.537 + 1.734 + 6 = 55.271 m. Time = 10.5 + 0.6 = 11.1 s. Avg speed: 4.98 m/s.
Looking at the average speed alone, you can already conclude how strong range addons have. But let's compare it in terms of 'closing the gap' with the survivor, by calculating the distance covered by them in the same fragment of time and then subtracting it to the distance covered by the nurse:
- Heavy panting: 12 + (12.1 - 2) × 4 = 52.4 m. Distance difference: 4.913 m.
- KLB: 12 + (12.3 - 2) × 4 = 53.2 m. Difference: 6.691 m.
- Both addons: 12 + (12.7 - 2) × 4 = 54.8 m. Difference: 10.247 m.
- HP + DC: 12 + (11.3 - 2) × 4 = 49.2 m. Difference: 5.033 m.
- HP + FW: 12 + (10.9 - 2) × 4 = 47.6 m. Difference: 5.093 m.
- KLB + DC: 12 + (11.5 - 2) × 4 = 50 m. Difference: 6.811 m.
- KLB + FW: 12 + (11.1 - 2) × 4 = 48.4 m. Difference: 6.871 m.
Conclusion + personal comment:
As you can see, the distance covered when using range addons is a lot higher than that of the survivor. Not only that, but the use of Fragile wheeze only, in terms of raw distance, gives almost 300% more distance than using both recharge addons together. This renders almost any effort of making distance from the nurse useless, as she can immediately close the gap. I don't think this is healthy at all for the game, and the fact that those addons have no downside whatsoever is mindblowing for me.
As I said earlier, recharge addons almost have no impact on the difference of the raw distances covered, they just impact the speed at which the game is played, and I don't want to discuss the balance of that in this thread, as the numbers are very similar.
If we want to consider a more realistic scenario, the nurse will hit the survivor, and they will run somewhere where they can break line of sight. The nurse will be forced to walk for longer than the recharge time required. Then she will blink again to catch the survivor, who is probably trying to break LoS and build distance. If they 'win' the mindgame, they have a chance to actually make said distance, forcing the nurse to be a lot more precise in her next blink series. However, outplaying a nurse with range addons is basically useless, because she can close the gap immediately.
If we take an addonless spirit for example, in the situation where she M1s a survivor and has her phase ready to go, you will find out that the duration of the phase is just enough for her to be in lunge range, if she tracks the exact same pathing as the survivor, and provided that there are no pallets or windows in between (you can do the math). Nurse doesn't care about these. So I don't think it is healthy for her to keep having these addons, at least with no downside. Taking spirit as example again, it would be as if Yakuyoke Amulet was never nerfed, or if MDR showed scratchmarks).
Finally, even though in terms of raw numbers, double range addons combination is the strongest, I personally think that the 'best' is KLB + FW, as it helps cover the gap while also giving only 1.3 seconds of 'forced' walking time while the nurse can locate the survivor again.
Again, this is not a thread about nurse, but about her addons.
NB: I posted the average movement speeds as a normalization metric, as every case examined took into consideration different times and distances covered. However, this is not a discussion on the average speed of the nurse. Don't interpret it as "wow, she's actually faster than a standard 4.6!", because every killer has a way of closing the gap with survivors, and on average they will have an overall speed higher than 4.6 m/s too (blight, spirit, billy moving extremely fast almost as much as they want, clown and freddy slowing down survivors which could be seen as them speeding up, and so on).
NBB: I really hope the math is correct. Maybe I made some mistakes here and there, if someone had the time to double check this it would do me a great favor :)
Yes, nurse counters hold-W. Its one of two reasons why she is top-tier. the other reason being that she ignores god pallet and safe loop design. The latter design is bad design to begin. Holding W is by product of bad pallet design and health state design doing more than just extra-hits.
I did this math long time ago, about 2 years ago when nurse was changed. I think major problem though is factoring in human error. This is realistic data if an AI was coded to play nurse and blink perfectly on top of the survivor every single time. Humans are not AI so there is mistake ratio in blinking for nurse.
I am not sure how to put this in good words, but recharge add-ons are human nurse add-ons. range add-ons help nurse be more time-efficient in practice but there is a problem with your logic. Your assuming that all maps have an infinity amount of length and width. The maps limited size generally restricts the need for such long distances.
Nurses generally control a certain amount of space near them. This is to say that being next to a nurse below say 12 meters is near guaranteed hit if the nurse knows where you are/knows where to blink and has enough practice/skill on nurse. Her blink movement speed and charge time are so fast at lower distances that it is nearly impossible for a survivor to exercise any counter-play towards it. At further distances, Nurse is much more fair because it takes longer to charge up blinks and it takes longer to reach destination after blinking meaning that survivor has more prediction time to anticipate the first blink destination, move away from it and this leaves nurse with 2nd chain-blink where she precisely needs to make a read in very low time frame to confirm the hit.
Depending how accurate you are at predicting first-blink largely dictates how easy it is to counter-play second nurse-blink. Strong nurses are very precise with their first blink as it enables their success to hit 2nd blink.
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@GentlemanFridge said:
Dear god, don't remind me.
Happiest day of my DbD career, when OoO got overhauled.
Though, it also proves that the devs don't look exclusively at the stats.
its opposite, if anything, they only look at STATS and NOTHING ELSE. In order for them change anything, community has to tell something about it and even than, very little changes over-time anyway.
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I mean April 7 matchmaking is like test 1 matchmaking. I wish the game was not balanced around this very casual low-level play.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2892324#Comment_2892324
"what about killer slowdown perks? Take a perk like corrupt intervention. What exactly is pro and con to this perk?"
That's actually a very easy one. The con is that it is literally gone after a set amount of time and the survivors can simply wait it out to where you just wasted a perk slot. That isn't a rarity against good survivors. Also, some perks simply have an effect that isn't strong enough to warrant a con, that's the balance. You need a con when the effect is impactful enough to warrant a downside. I'd argue CI isn't even that good for example, it's just ran because it's the only early game slow down option killers have which gets it defaulted. That isn't because of how good it is though, there's just nothing else.
"Your acting like killers do not have high impact perks that consistently provide adequate value that are not auto-includes in like every killer build."
Most killer perks aren't auto include. Hence why you see at least some variety in the killer meta compared to the survivor one. Literally all of the killer meta perks have some variety of cons be that downsides, skill requirements, situational use ect attached to them. The same can't be said for a lot of the survivor meta perks.
Also, the power level of meta killer perks to meta survivor perks are not on the same level. That matters in the context of what we're talking about.
"The reason why survivor utilize exhaustion perks as auto-includes is because of how extending chases is best form generator progress in the game. An exhaustion perk that extends a chase for say 25 extra seconds is 25 seconds of added progression to potential 3 generators on the map. Apart from second chance health-state type perks like Decisive strike and Borrow time, No other perks disrupt the killer's time efficiency as much these type of perks."
Yes, they have a ridiculous level of impact on the outcome of the match with nearly zero costs, downsides, requirements ect. If their impact was lower it wouldn't matter if they had a downside, but for how significant their impact is they warrant something worth consideration. Currently there is no consideration.
"I think OP post is mostly saying that the other exhaustion perks are too situational and do not provide enough consistent high-value to be used if dead hard was weakened."
My point is that they should be that situational. BL or Head On are how situational Exhaustion perks should be to warrant how impactful they are. If you don't want the other Exhaustion perks to be more situational then their impact on the match needs to be toned down significantly.
I also think "do not provide enough consistent high-value to be used if dead hard was weakened." is a seriously hard stretch. If DH disappeared today every single survivor would have Lithe or SB equipped. I hardly think anyone at a serious level in this game would argue with that.
"The issue is that your balancing perks that do not need balancing in first place. The good survivor perks and good killer perks are about as impactful as each other. "
I completely disagree with you. The good survivor perks and the good killer perks are on entirely different levels. Most the survivor meta perks need toning down significantly. The reason you rarely see the survivor meta change is because their meta perks are already so over tuned that for another perk to make it into the meta it has to also be over tuned.
"I would say that most of the modern killer problems weak base-kit powers + not impactful enough add-ons and safe pallet loop design."
This is the only place I agree with you. The primary problem with the games balance is weak killers and very poor map design/pallet setup. I would put this as the biggest issue in the game over everything else regardless of our other topics. I would hypothetically see less issue with the perks if these issues were fixed. However, realistically that just isn't happening, so I'm basing this off more realistic/easier changes the devs would actually consider seeing as map fixes aren't happening and the killer reworks have been pretty negligible overall.
"The con is that it is literally gone after a set amount of time and the survivors can simply wait it out to where you just wasted a perk slot."
That is not a con because the perk is extending the game. Its doing exact intended effect from the moment the killer player equipped the perk. Even if hiding out was supposedly a con to this perk, The con is super easy to mitigate through information perks. It is not the only early game perk, Lethal pursuer is another early game perk yet its nowhere near used as much as CI.
In general, I would say that the vast majority of killers do use some sort of generator delay perks because they're extremely consistent and the time that they provide extra to the killer is invaluable. I am not sure if to call them meta persay but they're used about as much as exhaustion perks and other forms of second chance perks.
"Most killer perks aren't auto include. Hence why you see at least some variety in the killer meta compared to the survivor one"
The reason why killers have more perk variety is because most killers do not play identically the same as one another. Even with difference between each killer, generator delay perks are pretty close to auto-includes perks for killers.
With survivor, every single survivor plays completely identical to each other. There is not a single difference between any of them. As a result, there exists a single optimal load out for them with very little in-between.
"My point is that they should be that situational."
A perk that situational i.e does not activate/has no effect on the match might as well be an empty perk slot. your essentially asking survivors to run empty perk slots. Take your balance landing or head-on example, If balance landing or head-on were good perks, they would see play-rate. The reason why they are not used is because they end up being empty perks far too often because they are way too situational as perks.
"If DH disappeared today every single survivor would have Lithe or SB equipped.
Correct, because those perks are not empty perk slots. They are still more situational than dead hard though.
"I completely disagree with you. The good survivor perks and the good killer perks are on entirely different levels."
You can take a survivor sided map like badham, I am fairely certain that even if the survivor was playing no add-ons and no perks, they would probably trash like 70% of the killer cast fairely consistently. I am pretty certain it is mostly similar for large % of the maps. The only time survivors would be losing with no perks and no add-ons is when they play against stronger killers because that is where they need their perks. This is also applies to more balanced maps as weaker loop design allows weaker killers to win chase. Both of these reinforce my last point that the problem is in the killer powers and safe pallet design.
"the killer reworks have been pretty negligible overall."
In light of negative changes, I'd say they are moving backwards faster than forwards. In other words I am pretty sure most of the killers are going to be pretty weak for long time.
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@Blueberry said:
While DH is a large offender, Exhaustion perks in general are way over tuned.
For example, lets say we literally doubled the Exhaustion debuff. That is a massive nerf. Yet, we would still see an Exhaustion perk on every single survivor, every single game. That in itself should illustrate how over tuned they are if you could nerf them that signficantly and they would still be in every single game, on every single survivor. If they were even remotely close to balanced then that hard of a nerf would make them nearly unseen, but that isn't the case.
There is literally no reason you would not always have an Exhaustion perk on every single game unless you just didn't care about winning, that is bad design. Every single perk should make you weigh the pros and cons and debate whether it was worth it that game. There is no consideration to make with Exhaustion perks, you just auto equip them no matter what. Bad design.
Either Exhaustion perks tuned down tremendously or killer Exhaustion perks tuned up tremendously. One or the other.
This all said I will throw some disclaimers. I think some Exhaustion perks that are designed well and totally fine are ones such as BL or Head On. They're situational, require you to play around them, and have high or low value depending on map rng so there's some risk attached to using them. They aren't just default auto high value every game regardless of anything. I'm fine with these. This is how the other Exhaustion perks should be.
what about killer slowdown perks? Take a perk like corrupt intervention. What exactly is pro and con to this perk? If your winning really hard, than you'll win even harder by equipping this perk that indirectly slows survivor's objective through blocked generators and If your concerned about losing generators in which survivors have to complete to open exit gate, than this perk will do masses. Your acting like killers do not have high impact perks that consistently provide adequate value that are not auto-includes in like every killer build.
The reason why survivor utilize exhaustion perks as auto-includes is because of how extending chases is best form generator progress in the game. An exhaustion perk that extends a chase for say 25 extra seconds is 25 seconds of added progression to potential 3 generators on the map. Apart from second chance health-state type perks like Decisive strike and Borrow time, No other perks disrupt the killer's time efficiency as much these type of perks.
I think OP post is mostly saying that the other exhaustion perks are too situational and do not provide enough consistent high-value to be used if dead hard was weakened.
"Which is why the game has issues in the first place with balance. This is flawed. We are trying to better balance their game."
The issue is that your balancing perks that do not need balancing in first place. The good survivor perks and good killer perks are about as impactful as each other. I would say that most of the modern killer problems weak base-kit powers + not impactful enough add-ons and safe pallet loop design.
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@StarLost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2888702#Comment_2888702
Shrug. He managed 20+ on Cenobite, and Cenobite isn't a strong killer.
The illuminating parts were:
- Even accounting for MMR, him saying that even compared to Myers and Trapper, she feels powerless at times.
- The mandatory brown.
The issue is that we don't need another 'C' tier killer. 'C' and 'D' tiers should really only exist as a holding pen for killers awaiting a buff/rework, or Pig. If a new killer is released weak, that's either evidence of poor design decisions, running out of time or...actually no, I think that's both of the things.
Cenobite is a lot stronger then sadako. He has potential to be top 5 killer. Its just dev decided to nerf his add-ons and they made his possession chains too easy exploit on environment with auto-break chains. With few reverts his add-ons and less hand-holding on his 1vs1. Cenobite could be great.
I personally think that most of the weaker killers are by product of survivor mains disliking x killer like freddy for example and combination of dev not knowing what to do with them, so they land up weak.
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@StarLost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2887777#Comment_2887777
...No, what?
That's the exact opposite of what I'm saying.
I'm saying that, even compared to some of the weakest killers in the game and accounting for CoH and MMR, how difficult he seems to be finding this streak is what's illuminating. Balance isn't something that happens in a vacuum - and you cannot say that there's not a gigantic delta between Onryo and even 'good' killers like Plague, Hag, PH and Artist.
Why is it illuminating? in truth, he is not suppose to be accomplishing any streaks whatsoever on any weaker killers. He is performing in the expected tier-list that he put her in. Era of killstreaks is somewhat over for the vast majority of killers. The only killers that should be killstreaking are strong killers, like A-tier and above. Even then, its mostly like light streaks like 20.
Its why most of the weaker killers that he originally got 50 kill streaks are not really legit killstreaks because he was facing new players and random skill-level players from old emblem system. Its only going get tougher for here on out. Just wait till they add Icons for solo where they start match solo start to become as efficient as SWF.
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@ProudRinMain said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2886014#Comment_2886014
You have proof that MDR used to be a 70% increase in movement speed?
These were her add-ons for about a year until the spirit changes. Its pretty much what blueberry is referencing when he says spirit is a lot worse.
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@Blueberry said:
I wish they'd remove that addon, takes a lot of skill away.
Iron Will is an issue that needs addressing though. Spirit got nerfed heavily enough that we don't need Iron Will where it's at. Rework or changes, something.
I do not see them weakening Iron will. I would rather they revert Stridor to interact with Iron will and bring back Father glasses instead of dried cherry blossom. in general, Its perk for perk. I would say looping spirit is only brainless looping because of directional audio cue.
I think Spirit was competitively viable before her nerfs because her ability to tunnel someone out of the game was probably the best out of any killer especially with old mother daughter ring that increased her speed by 70% instead of 40%. Not many survivor players could 1vs1 a spirit for 5 generators.
survivor mains asked for easy-mode spirit so they got it.
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@Dwight_Fairfield said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2883198#Comment_2883198
That Myers was playing really really nice. Even Tru3 says so. If he'd been more ruthless he'd have killed most if not all of them.
i mean even if you are playing nice, 15 minutes of unlimited instant down is long time.. to kill survivors. I think many killers can win in like half the time even when playing nice. Just myer things.
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@Predated said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2883596#Comment_2883596
Proccing other survivors out of reach are often survivors you might need to hit anyway, and thus lose stalk anyway. Proccing it makes them spooked, while also making them unable to bring back your red light which makes it easier to mindgame in close corners. And its not meant to be done consistently ofcourse, its situational, but the situation is more common than you'd think. Again, we dont know the full list of changes yet and how it affects gameplay.
its 2 meters over 5 seconds extra distance, that means you close the gap quicker, can cut off survivors faster. That doesnt sound like much at first, but that also means you can cut off a survivor from going to safe loops much easier. That's the main power of that addon, to close the gap between you and the loop. Lets say a loop is 20 meters away from the survivor, and 25 meters away from you, a survivor reaches that in 4.1 seconds of running and you reach that+lunge within 4.7-ish seconds, which means a survivor can be on the other side of a pallet. But with this addon, you'd reach that within 3.8 seconds with a lunge. Meaning the survivor has to run away from it while you are now breathing down their neck. If you are just walking behind a survivor untill you can hit them, then yeah, the addon is useless. Then you can also chain marks when there is a survivor you initially wanted to go for reaches a loop where you'd waste 40 seconds to down them but instead use the speed to get closer to another nearby and mark them to basically have 10% over 10 seconds.
Yeah, but stagger is dependend on fall distance. Hence Balanced Landing being depending on fall distance. And no, BL doesnt remove stagger, it reduces it by 25%. But considering where you can drop down effectively, killers can very easily cut survivors off, especially if the killer can lunge and recharge before they touch the ground. As for stacking Exhaustion perks, actually not a good decision unless you combine it with Head-On. It actually creates much more oppertunity to make mistakes compared to oppertunities to use one. You might plan on using Lithe after delaying the killer with a pallet drop, only to lose it to Smash Hit on an unsafe pallet because the killer was closer to the pallet than it seemed. Or wanting to use BL on a drop but there being a window and out of habit you pressing shift because medium vaults are faster than slow vaults, accidentally proccing Lithe. But yeah, that's going into a whole different argument.
BT basekit actually has everything to do with facecamping and tunneling. Right now, if you dont have BT, it might not even be a hook trade, giving the killer 2 downed survivors at his feet. Hooktrading will heavily invalidate facecamping, and quite strongly impact tunneling too. DH helped a lot against tunneling, and probably still will. But with the alterations it might get, it would need the help of things like basekit BT just to have a similar strength of current DH against tunneling.
The effects arent really mediocre, they are above average, and combined they are quite consistent, being able to crouch mid-chase and being able to move faster while having less visibility is quite good for a lot of mindgames. Its just not good enough on it's own. Being able to close the gap between loops and cutting off survivors upon marking them is quite good, its just not good enough on its own. Together, they can be quite nutty. Would there be better addons? Possibly, but this is the type of addon where survivors will be caught off guard and make mistakes out of the unexpected. And the longer the match goes on, the more they will be able to deal with it, sure, but being able to get 2-3 hooks before the 3rd gen pops because of survivors not expecting the effect early on is really good in a meta where 90% of the hooks happen after the first 3 gens are done.
IMO, green addons should always be the most powerful addons, because they are common enough to use semi-consistently. Purple addons should gain you unexpected benefits that forces survivors to play differently or be slightly more powerful than green addons if there isnt enough variability with the power(myers is a good example of having both types) and pink addons should make your killer play entirely differently(because they are by far the rarest addon, Renjiro's Bloody Glove is arguably the best example of this), or amplify the killer's main ability to the 3rd degree while still being counterable(there are some killers breaking this rule, like Nurse and Spirit, I wouldnt be surprised if those addons get nerfed within the next year). BHVR's design logic seems to follow this rule somewhat with a lot of killers. Having the purple addon be basically a green addon but more powerful in a lot of cases would simply break the balance. Take Myers his stalk addons for example. Following the logic between addons, the purple version would have been 38% speed, that's practically the obsession-only stalk addon in terms of speed. Which combined with tombstone piece alone would mean 1 death every 20 seconds. Or infinT3 could be gained within the first 20 seconds of the match. It would be "purple value" following that logic, but it would make Myers practically impossible to not die to. Tombstone Piece is still being begged to be nerfed. Killers that can simply guarantee a kill without actually having counterplay to prevent the kill(coughcoughbubbacoughcough) are something that should be part of the past. Equipping a pink addon should not make it impossible to escape, just as things like BNP shouldnt make it impossible to kill.
With that out of the way, yeah, having both the crouch speed and the ability to cut off survivors away from strong loops upon marking is quite worthy of a purple addon. Especially since it has synergy with perks, potential other addons and maybe even left-out changed mechanics that wont be revealed untill tuesday.
I do not think anyone will be running drop-leg stealth add-on on ghostface post-changes. Its not a good add-on. Plain and simple. No one was running crouch speed on ghostface pre-change and I highly doubt that killer players would run your version of drop-leg knife. In fact I would rather run no add-ons than run bad add-ons on killers.
I think you vastly overestimate exhaustion perks and their ease of use. I made small error. Balance landing is not 100% stagger decrease. it is 75% stagger decrease. I do not think exhaustion perks are particular hard to get use out of. It is more that BVHR philosophy in regards to balancing these perks has been to make them situational. My guess is so that they do not gain consistent use on every single match. Fear of being too impactful?
Dead hard is only perk in which survivors consistently get many usages out of because of its lack of conditions and versatility in many situations. The situational aspect of dead hard is suppose to be that it only works when injured meaning instant downs are suppose to make dead hard a more situational perk.
You have to remember, when dead hard was first made into the game, The killers in the game were trapper, wraith, billy, nurse, huntress, myers and later hag, doctor, leatherface. Almost half of these killers have instant downs. Billy was powerhouse of an instant down killer. Trapper's traps are instant down if he traps you healthy thereby scapegoating dead hard. Huntress had iri hatchets and had 60 second exhaust hatchets. Myers is instant down. doc had exhaust madness. if you go back in time, dead hard was not as reliable of a perk in old day dbd.
Fast forward today's standard, Post bubba's release, only 2 killers have base-kit instant down, Ghostface and Oni. They're some most restrictive and conditional instant downs as well. I would say over-time, dead hard became more powerful because instant downs became much more rare in DBD. The add-on that also apply exposed are more situational than ever. Nobody complains about Garden of Rot Artist or Iridescent Umbrella badge Nemesis, you know? dead hard has been growing strength for a long time in term reliability.
I disagree that you can't hook trade without BT against proxy camping killers. If the killer moves even little bit away from hook like 10-12 meters, there is always opportunity to hook trade in that situation. Its not 2 free downs. BT does not really invalidate facecamping. The unhooking animation for survivor is very long such that the killer can be very patient as the time pressure is on survivor to unhook rather than the killer to take action. If your interesting in learning a bit about killer gameplay regarding this, you can watch scottjund video titled "How to win the grab game" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kk62Y_HnXMs&t=334s
To briefly explain, the survivor in general tend to grab-tap survivors on the hook in hopes that the killer swings. If your patient enough as killer, you do not need to ever swing in 1vs1 scenario when playing killer. Eventually from you not swinging as killer, survivors are forced to attempt to do longer grab animations which gives more opportunity for the killer to grab survivors. There is a point where the survivor does such long unhooks animations that you can instinctively predict when you will successfully grab as killer. BT does very little in facecamping situations even against normal basic m1 killers. For instant down killers and killer with low attack cooldowns, you do not even need to play grab mindgame, you can straight down the survivor before they even try to unhook. In end game scenario, Its fairely common for survivors to hook trade their hook states until one person dies and than have 3 man escape against heavily strong hook defensive killers. Some survivors will not bother because they know end result. Against normal killers, you can counter facecamping by bodyblocking correctly so that one of survivor players can complete the unhook.
Both of these topics are large tangents from Ghostface.
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@Predated said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2880390#Comment_2880390
I think you misunderstood me, you use the proc of another survivor that is out of reach to quickly close the gap with someone else.
As for it being worse than PWYF, yes and no, because you need to find the obsession and lose 2 chases to gain 2 stacks, then not hit anyone. Where with the instadown, you gain it when you need it most and dont lose any stacks. As for the distance gained, well, thats not thinking about it correctly. It's about distance difference. 2 meters is the difference between reaching the shack pallet and entering the shack, adding to the fact that you can lunge and have a longer lunge distance(yes, haste affects lunge movementspeed, thus you gain distance too).
Considering the fact that you cannot break GF's nightshroud while marked also benefits this addon more than you might consider right now.
And DH is the most problematic of the exhaustion perks, because it doesnt really require anything, which is 100% true and why DH is getting addressed(and the addressing being a big reason why basekit BT is being considered). As for the right situation for other perks, not really, because the wrong window will screw over Lithe more than it helps, dropping slightly too high will negate Balanced Landing later on. Sprintburst is comparable to Nurse, because just using it to run away from a gen is awful for distance since the killer can cut off 50% of that boost with ease, mastering SB to conserve it and use it with similar distance that Lithe offers is harder than it seems.
As for addon value, I mean, people still are in the old mindset of what an addon must be like to be a certain rarity or anything. For current GF, yeah, you're 100% correct, altho its more likely to be yellow value tbh, however, with the changes that will come to GF's basekit(which arent all revealed, nor even tested what the in-game implications can be), there is a lot you can do. It might be very favourable for GF to mark everyone. Especially since basekit mark duration lasts an entire minute. That is an entire minute where you cannot be revealed at all.
""Personally, the change I would make to the addon is to keep the original crouching speed in addition of the 10% haste. Gives it a bit more utility and have consistency in that aspect"
If I understand this sentence correctly, you want it to be 10% haste for 5 seconds every single time ghostface crouches."
Oh no, the logic of the sentence is this: I would keep the original crouching speed increase(aka, the current 8.4% crouching speed) AND get the 10% haste that you get upon marking a survivor. So you can crouch closer faster, mark a survivor and close the final gap with the 10% increase when they have been marked. That way, even if survivors make it impossible to be stalked, you still have value from the addon, albeit a minor one.
ok.... why does procing of another survivor that is out of reach make this any better? why would marking a healthy survivor who is now possible instant down than chasing another survivor who is likely healthy be a smart decision? I do not get it. Is it some sort of joke? I do not understand how being immune to being broken out has anything to do with the speed.
There is not anything gap-close, as I said this is 2 meter speed boost over 5 seconds. Even a single stack of PWYF is really good and far outclasses the add-on because it is permanent speed increase until the killer attacks. Marking survivors smart survivors is very time consuming, even more so than getting stacks. Its just not a very good add-on.
Balance landing triggers on stagger and is not dependent on fall distance. To my knowledge, the stagger reducation on balance landing is additive bonus meaning that 100% stagger is no stagger at all. About 3 years ago, One of my builds for survivor was dead hard+balance landing. Old stagger distance was so good that you could create infinity loops from elevation in many maps. Just to illustrate my point, if you run more than 1 exhaustion perk, like say you run dead hard+lithe+balance landing+smash hit, you have more situations that you can exploit as survivor to gain distance. Its not about timing, its about being in right situation to use it. Running 4 different exhaustion perks gives 4x chance to find a situation to proc it as opposed to one. This is very off-topic to thread so I will stop here.
BT base-kit has nothing to do with dead hard. they're thinking of adding bt-base kit because they think that adding BT base-kit will make facecamping with instant down less effective. In my opinion, BT as a perk largely encourages hook trading and does very little to combat facecamping in general. I would say BT is a perk that punishes proxy camping and tends punish weaker killers that are poor at defending hooks. this is off-topic to thread so I will stop here.
"Oh no, the logic of the sentence is this: I would keep the original crouching speed increase(aka, the current 8.4% crouching speed) AND get the 10% haste that you get upon marking a survivor."
According Peanuts, They're changing add-on because previous effect was not very impactful for purple add-on. To me, it looks more like replacing an a mediocre effect with another mediocre effect with situational impact. I am not sure how having two mediocre effects changes much. 2 mediocre effects does not make add-on good. I think green add-on is generally more useful out of two add-ons revealed.
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@Dsg4041 The ultra-rare add-on your thinking of is outdoor security camera. it reveals the aura of other survivors if you hit marked target when in nightshroud. ghostface caught on tape reduces stalk time by -1 second but increases normal stalk time by 0.75. I use it to make stalking more reliable/worthwhile, but its still pretty situational.
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@GrimReaperJr1232 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2879912#Comment_2879912
1. I'd make T1 110% instead of 105%. As it stands, being in T1 is a massive hindrance rather than a resource.
2. Make T3 proc the press of a button, similar to Oni. People 99 for the same effect, only with a slight margin of error (don't pretend none of you haven't accidentally popped a T3)
3. He gets a slight boost to vaulting in T2 and a bigger one in T3. I'd make that boost apply to breaking pallets as well.
Beyond that, I think he's mostly fine. Tombstone Piece could definitely use a nerf imho...
agree with your post.
its funny that people can beat myers with permanent evil 3 for 15 minutes straight. poor myer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTfLHZ34dPM -
@Raccoon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2883165#Comment_2883165
Cool.
What's your opinion on the issue I presented?
d/c to deny pain resonance? nothing. they're not breaking any rules. The killer did not perform hook action, so the perk does not trigger.
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@Raccoon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2883124#Comment_2883124
Cool.
What's your opinion on the issue I presented?
you mean configurative files that allow people to cheat by giving wall-hacks against killer from red stain enhancements? those have been in the game for years.
many people that used stretch res also used these configuration files related to brightening red glow like christmas tree. BVHR hasn't address these issues because no real content creator has talked about this. The only reason why they changed stretch res is because tru3 was complaining about it as legal cheating. this is just the other form of legal cheating that has been allowed in DBD for long time.
m1 killers are bully material anyway even without these legal cheats subtle cheats. red glow enhancers are about as bad as stretch res.
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@Mazoobi said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2882147#Comment_2882147
That would be so busted. Not to mention, it ain't stopping people from combining it with other perks to go even faster...
The other haste perks are not used anyway. no one equipping Hope over Borrow time or dead hard etc.
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more haste like 5-7% would make the perk better.
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@Raccoon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2880627#Comment_2880627
Bronze/Iri/etc has no bearing on your MMR.
I will agree, though, that the people that get to Iri 2-3 days after reset are also most likely at a high MMR given that you need to win X amount of games while pipping in a very short time to do so.
bronze mmr is figure of speech. no one knows what their MMR is, but you need be facing trash survivor players to be winning 50 games in a row with weak killers vs people of equal skill. Said nothing about emblems. I'm not sure why he is shocked. Day 2-4 MMR is pretty standard to what everyone else in more competitive regions is playing against every day. I thought he was just deranking/smurfing or something.
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most killer players want easy games. how do you think otz acquired his 50 winstreak on no add-on clown? It wasn't by facing good players. it was by facing bronze MMR survivors. Let's see him do 30 second afk no add-on killers with same skill-level and call the game "killer-sided".
Day 1 MMR was me winning games as killer with 5 generators standing. rest of the days were proper. talk about facing 5-6 minute generators every game.....