Devil_hit11
Devil_hit11
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@Gamedozer7 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2823694#Comment_2823694
I was right in top of them at a rectangle loop and couldn't get the charge before they could make the corner.
The problem isn't the rarity I'm opinion it's that it's pretty much required for Victor to play alot of loops. There's no way it's effect should be higher then blowing at its stats. It one of the most used addons because the others are no good and not because the values are low but because the effects suck.
I mean in just last 2 patches, they've nerf 3 charge time add-ons. Plague's rubbing oil, Oni's Scalp top Knot and Twin's Toy sword. Charge time reductions are really critical for killer gameplay for being able utilize powers against stronger survivor players. they're crucial for killer to have counter-play to survivor looping.
your complaint is similar one that I had when Oni's top knot got changed. it makes you not able land same dashes as you could before. Feels bad when survivor becomes power-role of your ability. That is ok though. Hope the survivor enjoy blight by daylight.
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@Kurri said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2816375#Comment_2816375
That's not OP's point. OP's point was that the direction the game is taking is no longer "Play your favorite Killer as a threatening role" and is more now "Play against popular Killers, and get to bully them for fun". Which if you love a certain movie/show and it's characters, is a pretty big slap to the face, when the game advertises getting to be the power role of your favorite pulp fiction Killers. Killers are no longer the Power Role, you don't get rewarded for good play - instead as Killer you have to play right and then hope the Survivors make enough mistakes they run out of second chances.
I thought dbd was about bullying killers. Most of other weaker killers revolve around survivors making mistakes. Sadako is just following the classic dbd standard formula. she'll go to live, get over 50% kill-rate vs bad survivors while she gets bullied by strong survivors like every other B tier and lower killer gets.
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@FilthyLegionMain said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2822771#Comment_2822771
At least you realized and that to me is good to hear. Do you think this is viable as an actual power.
it is somewhat already exists as power. Billy ability has limited stearing and it has slow wind-up before chainsaw sprint mode. he doesn't vault windows but he does break pallets. If you knock yourself into object, you suffer cooldown but you end chainsaw to prevent cooldown.
Billy doesn't have deep wounds but he has instantdown. I do not think it would be a viable power because reduced stearing means your more likely to hit objects and on some maps, your legion power would be nearly worthless such as Lery and RPD. The bonus amount of speed would never get actualized at loops and would only be useful on if you play it like drift king billy. His power would only get used in short-bursts. He'd be stronger billy due to no wind-up but less rewards from deep wound vs instant down.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0-q_yHPNckLegion's old problem is lack of counter-play. Just watch Cope's video on old Legion. His design is that he is suppose to act like a survivor. This is why he can vault pallets and windows. I'd say they need return legion's ability to down survivors but give survivors some method of counter-play against his ability.
My suggestion would be that survivors gain infinity dead hard when deep wounded by legion. If they time their dead hard, they can dodge feral frenzy swing and put legion into fatique state. Cope does this in the video, but old legion had no cooldown for missing his attacks and could just endlessly attack until he downs the survivor. In modern day, When legion misses an attack, he is kicked out of his ability. Its just that his attack has no threat level and legion has no real incentive to use his ability on injured survivors. Legion's ability too useless vs injured survivors currently.
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@ThiccBudhha said:
I am all for nerfing face camping... On other killers. This is Leatherface's niche, if they remove it without compensating him with something major, I am hella hella gone, bro. I tolerate a LOT of their decisions. I disagree with dozens upon dozens of them. This would be the straw that broke the camels back.
I am not going to learn some lame killer like Nurse, Blight, or Spirit... according to some, just to compete with high end survivors. Hell no. I want a normal killer that can hang. And he does that by removing that BS that is free unhooks that survivors feel entitled to for whatever messed up reason.
Facecamping is niche towards every killer. Just some killers exacerbate more than others. namely killers that have instant downs and fast recovery. The territorial killers(Hag e.g) exacerbate proxy camping.
In my opinion, a large reason to why killers have large kill-rates has a lot to do with their ability to facecamp hooks. I know put this as extreme example but an example within MMR system is that a killer like blight could be flying around the map getting 6 hooks in 5 generators but 3 end up escaping, but a bubba can get 1 hook, facecamp a player to death and get another hook and facecamp that player to death.
The blight did worse despite actively trying to do win the game where as bubba did better and barely tried to contribute to the match.
People try to use this as extreme example to showcase that MMR does not work but its not MMR that is not working. Its balance of the game being poor. Its why you can have killers that have the balance of getting 1-3 hooks entire game within 5 generators completion but have nominal kill-rates.
Eventually, it does showcase itself with SWF that killers underperforming by 15% margin because of capacity to effectively counter the strategy by genrushing, but as a whole, many people describe this gameplay as sweaty and not enjoyable. Personally, playing the end game as survivor is not really interested nor fun. Against some killers with proper teamwork with body-blocking, it is possible save teammates in end game but overall the typical lack of coordination and teamplay in soloQ can sometimes lead to long drawn out end games where it is just bunch of hook trading for 5 minute straight.
As killer, the gameplay is super dull. When your playing killer and all generator are complete. you cannot chase survivors when exit gates are opened because when you hit a healthy survivor, the killer suffers 3.2 cooldown on m1 attacks and the survivor gains a speed boost for 2 seconds. This allows survivor to practically go half-way map-wide to an exit gate from just holding W. Its also very oppressive in normal gameplay for looping. As such, your forced to just babysit hooks for 5 minutes as you watch survivors fail continuous unhook attempts with 99% exit gates. Part of you as killer just wishes the game was over and that you could move on to the next game. At the same time, you have obligation as killer to finish the match from start to finish and it is in your interest to get as many kills as possible in losing match.
Either way, the game would feel in a far better state if the game was more about the chases during the match and less about facecamping hooks entire game from start to finish to maximize kill-count. Weakening facecamping would lower killer's kill-rates and further imbalance the game on killer-side but at least the game could have an opportunity to improve killers in the chase-hook gameplay aspect of the game as opposed to stand at hook simulator.
Leatherface needs no nerfs, the hook system could use re-balance & re-vamping as a whole. Of course, if you enjoy 5-6 minute generator gameplay into 5 minute end-game hook trading gameplay than it would be not be a good idea to change it.
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@Mandy said:
I use We'll Make it quite a bit (I've been changing my loadouts a lot recently to try out new perks), and I think it's a very strong perk - I don't think it's overpowered however.
I think with perks, there's a lot of options and some of those options have less downsides and different ways of playing - why run We'll Make it and only be able to heal someone else after you've unhooked them vs running CoH and everyone can heal whenever they need to, for example.
I run We'll Make It when I'm doing one of my healer/atruistic builds and am playing super unselfishly - I think though, players tend to like to run perks that help them out personally instead of just thinking of the team as a whole, and there's nothing wrong in that, it's just a different way of playing.
i used to run we'll make it every game just about. now I just run circle of healing just about every game.
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simple, the other killers suck. The survivors labeled as other killers as unfun. Hopefully Blight every game is fun for the survivor.
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@dugman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2820442#Comment_2820442
“The purpose of Pig crouching is to gain Undetectable and be less visible and allows her to do a special ability. The purpose of Sadako Demanifesting is to be less visible and allow her to use a special ability. Therefore their stealth is mechanically the same ability.”
Obviously that argument doesn’t work. Just because things serve a similar general purpose doesn’t make them the same ability. Huntress throws hatchets that can injure people. Trickster throws dagger that can injure people. They serve the same purpose. But they’re not the same thing.
I think one thing you might be overlooking in part is that numbers matter. Yeah, she can teleport and Freddy can teleport but their teleports feel different because she has no cooldown on it. She can teleport multiple times in succession, Freddy can’t, plus she gets the movement speed boost afterward. They don’t feel like the same ability because they’re not, the parameters are unique.
And if you try Cloaking and Uncloaking in the middle of chases with Wraith it doesn’t work. He can catch up to people in stealth but then the decloak slows him down to a crawl and he won’t be able to just get an hit right away after decloaking. But Sadako moves at 98% survivor speed while Demanifesting, so when she catches up to someone midchase she can demanifest and still be right in range to get a hit pretty much the moment she tap the attack button. (The survivor only gains something like 0.08 meters distance in that time.) So she plays very differently in a chase from Wraith since she actually can cloak and uncloak in the middle of it repeatedly.
Finally note that I’m not arguing how powerful she is overall or whether she needs a buff. I suspect they probably will want to buff her, maybe by reducing her TV refresh rate so she can teleport more reliably and also thereby push out stacks of Condemned more frequently. She is currently a bit better in a chase than Wraith since being able to go in and out of invisibility without slowing down helps with mindgames, but she’s not as good in a chase as killers that have a full blown anti-loop ability. So if she can’t rely of the teleports frequently she’ll probably be weak overall.
And as a side note, yes, safe unmindgamable pallets are safe. Duh. Her ability helps at gameable loops where the survivor loses site of her.
Wraith could uncloak and cloak during the chase. Yes wraith has slowdown when uncloaking but he gains speed boost to cover up his loss of distance. He can still do this but he gains no total distance gained for doing so. The dev in october 5.3.0 weakened speed out of cloak with comment of Wee bit overpowered wraith.
Sadako does not gain a speed boost when going out of cloak. She actively loses distance for using her ability in the loop itself. This is why the strategy to avoid de-manifestation slowdown is to use it at mid-point on non-dropped pallet. I am lazy to draw loops in paint so I am just going take screenshot of a loop and use the image to explain the flicking mindgame.
When your at the pallet as killer, the survivor is waiting to go left or right to make it back to the pallet based off which direction you go as killer. Sadako can channel her de-manifestation stationary and than she can time her flicker invisibility by going left or right indicated by the Dotted blue lines. The survivor will have to make an unfavorable guess for which direction Sadako is going. The easy way to counter this is to just drop pallet and than her chasing power becomes ineffective from de-manifestation slowdown. By the way, Wraith could also do this mindgame before they weakened his wee-bit op wraith speed.
This pallet is unsafe so you do not need her ability to get hits as 115% but many other pallets are safe where this ability does not do much.
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Her TV makes directional audio cue when used by her. The survivor can just shift-W long before she comes out of the TV. The speed boost does not matter when the survivor is very far away. This also prevents it from being useful in a chase. Survivors can also take the tape out of the TV next to the generator and this will shutdown TV so she cannot teleport to the TV itself. There are 7 TV equal to 7 generators so there will always be a TV that she can TP, but survivors can limit her teleporting options if they wish at the cost of a little condemn.
Hypothetically, her gameplay loop is suppose to be hit & run with TVs. She is suppose to go invisible, hit someone with undetectable, Teleport, Hit someone again, TP to another TV, hit someone again. As you teleport between TVs and gain hits, The survivor is supposed to build-up condemn meter and eventually get mori at 7 stacks of condemn. Unfortunately, Her gameplay execution does not work and the 7 stacks of condemn is pipe dream that will never occur in practical gameplay.
I do not think she is good at anything. I do not expect to see get much play after a week. She would need a long list of changes to be remotely effective.
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@OpenX said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2820442#Comment_2820442
Counter Point: Most solo Q teams are garbage and you can beat them perkless, addonless, and going AFK for 30 seconds first. Even post MMR.
I imagine some regions are less competitive than others and as Patrick stated in Q&A, he said that killer/survivors that leave the queue are backfilled with any MMR. I do agree that survivors that play novice/play poorly are easy to beat with any killer.
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@dugman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2820074#Comment_2820074
I don't think you know what "copy/paste" means. Her stealth isn't mechanically identical to Wraith, and her teleport isn't identical to Freddy, and her Invisibility isn't identical to Spirit, and her slow down isn't identical to Pigs.
- Wraith moves 6 m/s when cloaked, slows down to a crawling 1.6 m/s when decloaking, then gets an extended lunge immediately after decloaking. Sadako's movement speed is mostly constant - 4.6 most of the time and 3.68 when Manifesting. She also gets an extended speed boost after teleporting. Also, when Wraith is cloaked he's difficult to see regardless of distance and totally invisible when stationary. Sadako is totally invisible at long range and alternatingly invisible/visible at short range. Almost the only thing they have in common is they use the Power button to go in and out of stealth.
- Freddy and Sadako both teleport to objects, and they both take 3 seconds to teleport. That's the extent of the similarity. Freddy has a 45 second cool down on his ability and he can cancel his teleport mid-charge but it takes 10 seconds to recover. Sadako can cancel her teleport with only a 0.5 second cooldown afterward, and has no cooldown after teleporting but turns that specific television off for 100 seconds. And she gets a 1.5 second speed boost after a teleport, Freddy doesn't.
- Spirit and Sadako both has passive visual effects that disguise where they are. Spirit is always visible but her actual location is randomly shifted by her ability. Sadako alternates between being visible and invisible.
- And obviously Condemned and Pig's traps have very little in common other than being something that can potentially allow a survivor to die if they're not paying attention.
Also, on a tangent, if you think Sadako's hit and run is weaker than Wraith's go watch Dowsey's matches with her, he's been putting on a clinic with her hit and run. She's weak if you try and play her like Wraith but better if you actually take advantage of her teleport and the fact that she can manifest and demanifest more easily than Wraith in a chase.
The purpose of Wraith's ability is to gain undetectable status and to be less visible towards survivors.
The purpose of Sadako ability is to.... go undetectable and be less visible towards survivors.
The purpose of Freddy teleport is to go from point A to point B with destination being on a generator.
The purpose of Sadako is to from point A to point B with destination being a TV. TV spawn near generators.
Mechanically, they are almost the same and the purpose of these two ability is near identical. I personally do not see how these two mechanics are not near identical copies of previously existing killer powers.
The unique mechanic for her is condemn, but as I stated in my previous post. it is not very impactful towards gameplay. Dowsey success on hit & run is based off new killer novelty. Survivors have not learned yet to counter her abilities but her abilities as I will explain are not difficult to counter.
TV teleporting is ineffective for hit & run because Sadako makes global directional audio cues when she teleports to a TV when you are next to a TV. You always know when she is coming out from TV. Her stealth is ineffective because survivors can see her from distance on open generators and generators that are not open are next to a loop.
Countering condemn is the just matter of taking the tape and putting the tape inside television. you gain 1 bar for picking up tape, but 4 bars removed for total 3 bars per tape. Her other method of spreading condemn is through a green add-on called Ring drawing. This add-on spreads condemn when other survivors heal each other. The problem is that survivors can use a perk called Boon: Circle of healing which unlocks ability to self-care yourself. This means that survivor never need to heal each other and can self-heal without the need of a teammate. As a result, Ring drawing will not be able to spread condemn stacks as the perk Boon: Circle of healing completely counters it.
Countering her flickering is simple. If the pallet loop is safe and long, you can play loops the same way you do against other m1 killers. If the loop is short and unsafe, than you can put pallet down early so that she cannot stand on the pallet and de-manifest to utilize invisibility flicker. Moral of the story is that she is m1 at loops. M1 killers are easy to loop for experienced survivors.
When survivors learn to counter-play her ability, Dowsey and all other players that play Sadako will not be effective. Sadako is unoriginal killer with weak mechanics across the board. If you have points of disagreement, than list realistic counter-play options that the Sadako player can incorporate in her gameplay to counter-play TV, Condemn & flicking survivor counter-play that survivors will utilize against her once they become familiar with her ability.
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@dugman said:
I think Sadako is unique enough, she just might need a buff on her ability to build up Condemned stacks to make that part of the kit more threatening. Just because her kit is built using some bits and pieces of mechanics doesn’t make the combination not a unique one. I don’t think you’d be doing yourself a favor playing her exactly like Wraith for instance, even thought they both use their Power button to phase for Stealth.
Is there design space for new mechanics? Sure! I’d love to see a Medusa style killer for instance that when survivors can see the killer they get increasingly severe Conditions on themselves. It would be a killer that you actively try to avoid seeing when you’re doing gens or in a chase. But that doesn’t make Sadako disappointing to me, I like the various aspects of her current kit even if they could maybe stand a buff.
how is Sadako unique? Her design is least unique design that we have had in modern DBD.
Sadako stealth/undetectable mechanic is copy-paste of wraith's cloak and uncloak mechanic.
Sadako TV are copy paste of Freddy's generator teleporting. They just changed targeting from gen to TV. I would not be surprised if TV are copy-paste of Freddy clock locations that have been reskinned to be TVs.
Sadako flicking is also copy-paste of both freddy's and spirit's passive phasing.
The condemn mechanic is unique part of Sadako kit. it is so awful to the point that you are more likely to mori someone in live game by using ebony mori offering than you are to mori someone with condemn. It ends up being least relevant mechanic in her arsenal.
The funny part is that they managed to weaken every copy-pasted aspect of her kit.
Sadako stealth does not have windstorm element of wraith's kit and it is far easier to detect her from distance compare wraith.
Her TV teleporting has more counter-play by removing the tapes from TV than freddy does and it has no ability to be faked/canceled. It has directional audio cue warning survivors in far advance when TV are used by Sadako. Since condemn mechanic is so easy remove and so hard for her to build in any meaningful way, survivors have zero risk and almost no slowdown attached for completely shutting her power TP. The tapes do not take item slots unlike say pinhead cube or nemesis vial so the survivor is free carry both tapes and their item/med kit at the same time. Sadako condemn mechanic has zero urgency and almost no game delay for the killer
The passive flicking could be Sadako only saving grace in a chase. Unfortunately, It is bog down by classic bvhr drawbacks. The movement slowdown from 4.6->3.68(98%) manifesting -> de-manifesting hurt her at loops for a killer that already has little to no tools in the chase. The funny aspect is that Spirit's phasing is automatic and If Spirit passive phasing was updated to show the killer when they were phasing out like Sadako and Spirits movement speed was changed to be 115%. Spirit would be a better Sadako in chase than Sadako herself based off passive alone. With spirit negative changes on her active ability, it is worth wondering if spirit is 110% m/s worthy in current iteration.
Sadako is far from unique. Far from effective.
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Her TP is strongest aspect right now about her. buffing TP is like last thing she needs. I'd even go as far as to say that her mobility rivals that of Blight and Billy. It definitely does not need improvements. it has no cooldown and 7 TV is a lot TP. her Iri add-on even turns on TV for you for more TP.
If she need any change, they should be related to her stealth and condemn. 32 meters sounds really excessive distance for stealth flickering. They should make it like 24 meters. I think condemn takes a bit too long to stack up for ringu so my idea is to give her ability for her m1 attacks to apply 0.5 of condemn stack. it would give her a new way to build up condemn and reward ringu player for successful m1 gameplay.
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@fogdonkey said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2816539#Comment_2816539
BT and DS help the survivors when they are at a risk of being tunneled out, which is a big hit on them if the killer manages to tunnel out a person. So I think BT and DS are reasonable. (Yes, I agree about BT for protection hits or DS during EGC is questionable, arguments on both side can be valid. I don't want to go into the details of this here.)
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2816560#Comment_2816560
Dead hard also follows the principles from the video: the survivors can use it when they are in a bad situation: injured and in a chase.
The problem is that Dead hard can offer too much help to the survivors, it can extend the chase by too much when used well.
NOED is a perk that rewards losing the objective. you are saying that NOED is the ideal designed killer perk.I do not like design of NOED because it can skew kill-rates and turn games around on a dime. you can super beat-up as killer, have like 1 hook in all 5 gens and than somehow get 2 kills by the end of it from NOED concluding 2 kill-2 escape. a balanced game.
I think your looking at survivor perks and killer perks in the wrong way. When you look at commonly strong survivor perks that community agree upon such as Dead hard, Decisive strike, Borrow time, Circle of healing, Borrow time, You notice that all survivor perks have one thing in common which is that they prevent the killer from snowballing in various ways.
Dead hard prevents snowball by extending chases at loops therefore preventing the down.
Decisive strike discourages tunneling snowball by adding a cost to picking the same survivor up twice.
Circle of healing prevents the killer from snowballing from injuries & health states.
Unbreakable prevents slugging snowballs
Borrow time adds a cost to hitting an recently unhooked survivor to prevent tunneling off hook.
When you look at popular killer perks, you realize that many of the popular killer perks are about empower snowball. Examples are BBQ, Corrupt intervention, Pop goes weasel, Scourage hook: Pain Resonance, Dead man switch. all of them empower snowballing in one way or another. some at different points in the game.
conclusive DBD is not about seesaws and balanced weighting scales. That is what symmetric games are about. its more about outpacing your opponent and getting to finish line before your opponent does and the killer perks are there to get to finish line faster in my opinion.
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@ObservantOfTime said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2815695#Comment_2815695
This is also making the assumption that a player can hit most of their knifes, and anyone who's ever played trickster knows how impossibly lucky you have to get to hit all of your blades consecutively. If anything he could use a buff, going back to the knife count he had in the PTB. Survivors who know what they're doing won't let you get an opening for you to get your knifes in either, at which point you're just a miserable 4.4 m/s killer who slows down even further when using his blades, necessitating add-ons to compensate.
I do agree in regards to needing to be accurate with blades to be successful. Personally like @ThatOneDemoPlayer says, high-walls are way too effective against trickster and If I was to suggest change on him, I'd increase his movement in throwing mode to 105% so that it is harder to LOS his power. It is just too easy in current iteration to do so. It is too much of hard counter.
I'd say his ammo count is about right because its just enough ammo to get downs but enough that little bit of survivor outplay yields winning chases/extending chases . There is outplaying the killer and than there is hard countering a killer in which killer has no counter-play to survivor's gameplay.
it is really demoralizing because if survivor hug corner walls very well, you only get to shoot like 2-3 knifes and than your back in LOS problem. Its also what makes his main event so garbage because he is so slow in throwing mode that you can physically loop non-pallet rock and he physically can't do anything about it other than cancel main event or just let entire main event expire.
so yeah, one thing i'd say he needs buff on is throwing mode movement speed. 96% m/s is just too slow for main event and throwing mode itself.
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I'll take the bait just to showcase how delusional survivor mains are. Let's examine a game from tru3ta1ent youtube vods on trickster:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fflE5RSsSS0&list=PLJgAMgRFBOfgZnmqMwB9ksqD343RPF410&index=132Here are some timestamps:
0-41 second - 8 knifes chase 1
2:07-2:41 second - 3 knife chase 2,3
3:53-4:28 - Chase 4 - 0 knifes, ran out of knifes(Lisa)
5:08 - Extended chase 16 knifes left
5:22, 5:54 - 8 knife left chase 5,6
6:57-7:12 - 21 knifes left chase 7
8:40-9:02 - 2 knife left chase 8
10:22 - camp hook 22 knifes chase 9
10:40- 10:53 - 8 knifes chase 10-11
11:31-11:45 - 18 knifes chase 12
Almost all chases, the trickster ended with less than 8 knifes.
Only 3 chases out of 12 did trickster end with double digits on knife count. On one occasion, Tru3 ran out of knifes and chase was extended by 32 seconds.
with your proposed change, trickster would run out of knives 8/12 of chases with halve ammo.
Based off this relatively close game, I do not think that trickster needs less ammo. If anything, he barely has enough ammo to get 1 down per reload. If your not 7000 hour dbd killer player like tru3, you might have some problems doing well with trickster at high-level. Its why trickster kill-rate is very low among "casual" players.
The game was suppose end on 2 kill, 2 escapes however due to survivor's altruism & killer's ability to facecamp hook's, the result was 3 kill, 1 escape.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2812788#Comment_2812788
Dragon's Grip won't help solidify a 3-gen more than an other perk would. The survivor who taps the gen is now exposed, but you have to commit to them to get the down, which means leaving your 3-gen and potentially losing the last gen. Y'all always act as if when you have a 3-gen, they're all starting at 0 every time, instead of taking into account how a game normally is.
you wouldn't pick a perk to give exposed, you'd pick a killer who already has exposed. An example of killer that has exposed base-kit is Hillbilly. Why bother using situational exposed perks when you can just play a killer that has 100% up-time on exposed.
I mean if you've watched trapper mains like otz or hag mains like michi who main hag. these killers that are largely territorial are based around 3 generator gameplay. those player don't use expose perks. expose perks are just not good. a more reliable way for non-instant down killers to capitalize off 3 generators is running stbfl. Hag mains run it because it shorten cooldown of m1 attack allowing them to chain-teleporter easier and it keeps survivors more claustrophobic towards one area which is important for trapping based killer. trapper's do this as well for exact same reason. if you pick an instant down killer than you do not need stbfl.
3 generator strategies are all about claustrophobia gameplay that often revolves around abusing narrow map design(like azeroth resting place) and unlimited regression. The reason 3 generator strategies do not really work vs high-level teams is because killers have pathetic level of base regression on generators. The only way to regress generator's infinitive is through skill-checks like overcharge but good survivors won't miss skill-checks. that's why this stuff mostly labeled as rank 20 strategies, but now a days, we do not have ranks, so I'd just call low MMR in modern day.
If you ask me, new Ringu killer is like... rank 20 balancing/killer design and rank 20 perk design. Do they seriously think that survivors are going to get mori by directional audio TV teleporting? Do you think anyone going to get fooled by passive spirit phasing as a power at loops? The people saying she is fine without anti-loop are complete fools. It is like watching comedy.
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@ukenicky said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2812428#Comment_2812428
That's why utilizing it with another perk makes it better.
You're making it sound like every survivor is capable of looping for 5 gens and you'll never get a hit on them?
its not what perk is for. about 4 weeks ago, Mandy said that the team was discussing internally about 3 generator strategies and I can see exactly why they were discussing it.
This perk is designed for 3 generator strategies. currently killers regress generator 400% slower than survivors making them ineffective at 3 generator strategies because survivor progress 400% faster and killer regress 400% slower. survivors will win the war of attrition just by the progress vs regress on the game.
a famous build known for 3 generator strategies was doctor's 3 generator strategy, though its not really exclusive to him, anyone can do it and its related to these 4 perks when put together.
Unnerving presence+Overcharge+Surveillance+STBFL.
now you can run Unnerving presence+Overcharge+Call of brine+STBFL. simple concept is that if survivor touches generator, they better hit that tiny white ruin skill-check or you lose 15% regression. even if you do hit it, the killer can kick it again until you do. If you don't touch generator, than it regress at 200% ruin speed.
what fascinating gameplay.
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Low tier m1 killer. I'd recon around C-tier. She has spirit's phasing passive with add-ons at loops, but its easily counterable by dropping pallets a bit like pig's ambush charge. Its a killer I will not be seeing much of due to higher mmr. All the perks on both sides were made very safe.
I'll see this update more as health updated on removal of stretch resolution.
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@Zender said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2803045#Comment_2803045
I had not seen a Ghostface in 200 matches, but you're right it's blight and nurse about 50% of the time. With bubba and huntress showing up more commonly than the other TWENTY-TWO killers!
I usually go dozens and dozens of games without seeing 80% of the killers. It's been a long time since I saw a Plague, Hag, Demo, Twins, Slinger. When we do see them we're like, "oh cute, another easy match". We occasionally lose to them but that is usually due to our own altruism.
I think I tend see a bit more blight than nurse. I often joke that survivor are playing blight by daylight. its not too uncommon to face like 5 blights in a row. I can definitely agree with the statement of "easy-killer matches". Most of them just are not really challenging to loop especially if there is abundance of safe loops. I would also agree altruism aspect being defining aspect that gives a lot low tier killers a lot of kills for no real reason.
To talk briefly about EGC Altruiam, There is strategy to escaping killers that do not have instant/fast attack recovery. First surrounded the killer in 15 meter area. All you have to do is take 1 hit and than unhook during killer recovery animation. Some killers might purposely not hit the survivor and look for grabs, but you can counter-act this by bodyblocking the person who unhooks so that they do not get grabbed. For reason, solo tends have hard time coordinating this, but I feel like its simple and easy that most of the low tier killers should just walk with 0 kills.
I mean ghostface vs swf barely has an ability in outdoor map. with 4 eyes watching him, your almost never in his ability to stalk in first place. Revealing him is far too easy. Stalking is too risky and has little to no reward. Anything that is not complete stalk tends to be worthless as m1 the survivor resets stalk meter which punishes you for using his ability. In my experience, revealing him is generally faster than his ability to stalk. On off-chance he gets to successfully stalk, there is no real guaranteed that he can confirm the down. Often just running him into safe loops is enough to make the mark expire. He is just another pure M1 killer with no real purpose. I would not say that he is pleasurable killer experience in my opinion.
No real surprise to not see ghostface that much.
Slinger is apparently bAdLy DeSiGNed. Demo is just worse bubba that breaks pallet slower without instant down. Portals do not really contribute to DBD's fast game tempo. Hag is really easy to counter. always thought she was overrated.
She is only good indoor maps like ghostface because she can trap choke points. Hag in outdoor maps is easy to counter. Just give her bad first chase and spread generator pressure so she can't trap a single area. if she forces 3 generator, its war of attrition of repair/heal until you escape. COH streamlines the process.
Plague, they just shifted her slowdown from cooldown to wind-up by nerfing rubbing oil add-on and than they even took liberty to nerf vile effectiveness add-ons effectively counter-acting their buffs. They also reworked her vile emetic into something useless. She also has the problem where they made her ability survivor client-sided instead of killer client-sided which often makes survivors scream on killer side but no infection application. The system is refer to as "Favor shooter" because its projectile mechanics are sensitive to latency. Plague has "Favor the survivor" problems. Plague's good case of them not being able to just buff killers without making them worse.
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I like how OP mentions my most played killers, blight, bubba, nurse and huntress. I like playing pinhead but the fact that his chains break in environment drive me crazy. I'd like to see more killer be strong but survivors do not seem to want that. there is thread about blight add-ons being too strong and... one about bubba stearing being too strong which is funny to say the least.
My experience is similar OP. It feels like playing survivor is 40% blight, 20% nurse and the rest being random but bubba/huntress being more common than rest. I play mostly solo. Is SWF really that one dimensional, you haven't seen any other killers since ghostface? ghostface is not even that good. who knew that swf experience was more dry than solo survivor experience, go figure.
@BenihimeWrath "They don't realize that if they intend on balancing killers with their addons in mind that each killer must have their own Alchemist ring + blighted crow."
if there one thing that I've learned from the devs, I think they like the power-disparity being as massive as possible. I do not see a bright future for weaker killers getting stronger add-ons. I only see more survivor whining and more dev pondering to change killers negatively based off their feedback. casual survivors really hurt high-level play of this game which is why you see so much of same killers and so little variety.
I do not think that it is entirely fault of dev. The dbd community in general complains too much about killers and dev are self-reflection of the communities requests, especially survivor mains requests. For that reason I think most killers are going to be under-powered and underwhelming from gameplay perceptive. Dev do not care about killer gameplay, only stats so there is that as evident by Patrick's comment on Twins during Q&A. I would assume similar answer for Clown & Nemesis.
Personally wish it was less about stats and more centered around fun gameplay.
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@ukenicky said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2800160#Comment_2800160
Imagine if Spirit had an add-on that completely gave you back your power when you hit someone with a Grudge attack coming out of Phase.
That's what Alchemist Ring basically does and the fact that it has zero downsides is why I and many others find it unfair.
Alchemist Ring could be nerfed and Blight would still be completely fine. I'm not against killers having some impactful add-ons but the way Alchemist Ring functions currently it should be an iridescent add-on. The fact that it's a purple with no drawbacks is insane.
she has two add-ons that make her recover phase instantly. Her iri add-on recovers phase instantly when breaking a pallet and the other instantly recovers phase if you are stunned by pallet which is easy to do by just swinging into a pallet. Since spirit's power is now ineffective, there have been no complaints about her for over 3 months.
Survivors aren't complaining about add-on, they're complaining about blight itself because he is strong enough to hold his own unlike spirit that lost her ability to hold her own as did many other killers.
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@Predated said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2800018#Comment_2800018
I mean, define "god" window and "god" pallet. In my veteran experience, a god window would be a window that would require the killer to get bloodlust 2-3 to even get a single hit or even a window that consistently loses the chase and thus can be used infinitely, these no longer exist. A god pallet would be one that both gives you like 10 loops before it needs to be dropped. Which, doesnt really exist anymore either.
Haddonfield is being reworked ATM, so that doesnt matter ATM. But from Haddonfield, the basement window is the only true god window. The rest of the god windows have been blocked or gain the killer distance.
Groaning Storehouse, you gain distance by breaking the door in the long run. It's basically losing 2 meters more the first time, but gaining 1 meter the more often that window is used. Not exactly a god window as I would define it.
Mothers Dwelling isnt a god window, you can play survivors around it. It requires thinking outside of the box a bit, but the windows would be blocked super quick. Use window blockers in your favor, instead of them being an eventuality.
a god pallet is pallet that requires killer to kick it to proceed and if not kicked, it produce bloodlust 3 infinity. all safe pallets are god pallets because all safe pallet rely on survivor to make a mistake for killer to get a hit thus require killer to kick it to proceed chase when the survivor is competent.
Most of tile sets are god pallets because once the pallet is dropped, it becomes bloodlust 3 infinity for the survivor which is why most killers kick these right away after being dropped. Because killers are slow at breaking pallets, it gives survivors distance to go on to next loop in which they can also play just as safe and repeat exact same process.
I'd draw picture of each of these loops but for some reason forums are blocking my access to do so.
Unsafe pallets are pallets where the killer's reach exceeds the pallet length thus it allows killer to get an m1 hit. It can also turn unsafe if killer movement speed increases because movement speed artificially decrease loop length.
a god window is window that the survivor can vault multiple times and it often forces an entity blocker and high-level of bloodlust for killer catch up.
again because forums for some reason block ability to show any images. I can't show anything.
Growning storehouse has one-sided god window loop because the killer is forced to go around the window where as survivor can vault the window. If the loop is clock-wise, I believe the survivor can fast vault window from outside, but if its counter-clockwise, the survivor is forced to medium vault window. There is no mindgames because the survivors can see the killer from insides and outside.
Father chapel has a rng god window on bottom floor.
Mother dwelling has rng god window.
Gas heaven can have one if the generator inside garage is completed. You can also make one if you break the breakable walls inside garage that lead to generator inside.
Backwater swamp has one on that structure that has 1 window one side and 2 windows on other side. the one window is god window and other two can be god windows IF the killer has no anti-loop towards windows like pig for example. Depending on which side the double window and single window spawns, its either weaker on clock-wise and stronger on clock-wise or reversed if the windows are flipped because medium vaulting vs fast vaulting. The survivor will get hit though by end of this loop because of bloodlust 3 & no safe/god pallets to reset it but you can definitely use your health state to waste a lot of time here.
Racoon police city station has 2 god windows. one of them is in library. for this I don't even want to explain it, so I looked up a video to explain here. you can watch video. bottom right side is god window and library windows are god windows.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dE3bB19_1oAI would say the game suffers more from god pallet/safe pallets than windows, but there are problematic windows. Its just that many of them were patched out over-time so there is less of them than there was before.
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@Stealthyfeng123 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2797697#Comment_2797697
Bruh blight by itself is balanced but especially the addons you called are literally a free win besides the fact you could even combine than you cant dead angle a blight on any normal building like TLs ,long walls only if he is bad short walls give you always a hit dosent matter what you do
I see blight out of 20 at least 12 times and on top over the half runs ring for gen perks in solo Q no way to survive zero chance,only in a perfect four man counterable
On the opsite nurse is just getting destroyed if she dares to run no addons one miss blink and you one need to hold W and that alone gives you almost a minute
Free wins? I've seen blights lose with the add-on vs solo teams. What I typically see when the add-on is used is that blight player uses infectious fright with it because add-on alchemist ring reset your cooldown every time you hit which is good for snowball slugging.
Please refer to @danielmaster87 post. The Blight's ability does have counter-play. It is similar to Oni however dead angling blight is all about positioning & understanding map/blight's bump logic as opposed to Oni who is all about viewing angle. Blight is where most of the killers should be at in term of power-level where many were closer in the past.
Also explain how a resetting your power on a successful swing is unfair?
Survivor's say its oppressive but that is whole point. killers should be oppressive when they're successful at using their ability.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2797307#Comment_2797307
He does have counters. You can dead angle his rush just like with Oni, to where he literally can't turn hard enough to hit you. And unlike Nurse, you can just instant drop pallets against him to stall for time like you do against a Leatherface. By the time they're all used up, 5 gens have been done.
Its that most casual survivors players do not know how to position and dead angle blight, so they complain he is unfair. Alchemist ring and Adrenaline Vial are major noob-stomp add-ons if you do not know how to dead angle blight because they reduce cooldown of his ability drastically.
Survivor's attitude towards killers is that killer is imbalanced if the survivors cannot escape despite being hooked multiple times. survivors literally want to do terrible in chase and escape at the same time. Learning to play against killer power is after-thought. in fact many of changes that killers receive are specifically to make killer powers ineffective so that power is ineffective even if the killer is good at using it(See pinhead chains for example). By doing that, you do not need learn anything about the killer because killer auto-loses from the most basic gen speed and safe loop design. After that, you have the irony of survivor's complaining the killer camps hooks too much because they physically cannot go multiple chases from crippled killer powers.
killer balancing is controlled by casual survivors players. Blight is unfiltered killer. he hasn't received negative survivor changes yet to downgrade his skill/limits his skill-ceiling.
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@C3Tooth said:
Speed boost on hit is 2sec, not 3.
W is likely the only option for beginners to buy time, especially when they're being tunneled out without any 2nd chance perk, or resource is depleted.
And there are more and more Killers power just force survivor to run straight, there is no point to hold at a title for too long vs Pyramid head, Nemesis, Artist...
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2795778#Comment_2795778
I really like perks that apply effect to M1 like Sloppy & Franklin...but those perk would be powerful for Killers using power into M1 like Spirit & Nurse
haha I used to use franklin on nurse in my main build and sloppy butcher on spirit before stridor got changed. I don't think it would change very much for these killers because they already have options to gap-close. Perk like this would be redudent and not very useful for them.
it would do mass for all m1 killers that have no reliable instant down or in-chase gap-closing because you could pair the perk with stbfl. Short recovery+Low speed boost is super fast catch up for the killer. Examples of killers that would benefit from a perk this would be Demo, Pig, Doctor, Trapper, Clown, Nemesis. Survivors might complain that old pseudo machine gun build is back, but I always thought it was overrated build than again I wasn't forums at that time.
The killers that are high-tier have no real reason to use the perk and that is because part of what makes them strong is the ability to gap-close distances. Like blight can use the perk, but why, he already moves so fast that he does what perk does and better without needing perk itself. Its why you do not really see blight use a perk like stbfl. No real point.
I doubt they'll ever add a perk that though. Dev are Ultra-safe with killer perks. this perk is way too unsafe for them in my opinion. Even if they did add it, they'd probably create some mechanic to make it worthless like making only work obsession or something.
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it could be a killer perk. I had an idea long ago for a perk that halves sprint burst upon injuring a survivor with normal m1 hit.
Survivors have a perk called overcome that does opposite, though I do not see anyone using it. As long as dead hard exists in current form, it will overshadow every exhaustion perk.
I kinda wish the killer meta game evolved more into making viable chase perks instead of consistent gen slowdown perks that everyone uses 24/7. The last time they tried to make viable chase perks were Crowd control and Blood flavor, but they made them hex which made them the worst hex perks in the entire game. they might still be most pointless hex perks ever. The only other chase perk that made since than is coup the grace and for that, they gave it a worthless token system.
Other than that, there hasn't been any chase-oriented killer m1 perks since bamboozle, enduring spirit fury, sbtfl and very first one, brutal strength. I might be missing one, fire up? nobody uses fire up though, too garbage numbers.
So maybe dev make a viable chase perk, one that could be useful would be a perk that reduces sprint burst of healthy survivors after an m1 hit.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2792425#Comment_2792425
Alright, fair enough! I will yield that Myers is an M1 killer. This really changes very little about the actual point, being that he's stronger than people give him credit for and that there are at least two killers weaker than him, but you've definitely proven that much.
I also didn't conclude that Nurse and Myers are the same, I concluded that Bubba and Myers are the same, you selectively cut out the part of my message where I made that clear: both have to loop but neither have to rely on basic attacks to secure their downs since they both have an instadown capacity. Bubba is better than Myers, for the record, because Bubba's instadown is more consistently available, but the principle of not having to hit every survivor twice to get a down remains the same.
bubba is weird. bubba does not win loops, but he shred pallets. he can win loops if survivor greed pallets and he has specific add-ons do this. I'd say he is anti-loop with instant down but you need to know how to pallet break zone and know how to time your charges to make him anti-loop. In that sense, he is miles beyond him. Using his chainsaw around windows is all big skill towards playing him well. I'd say he is underrated as most people say he is average/below average, though in my opinion, he is probably up there with strongest killers in the game if the killer player is competent at playing him.
(Spoiler, a lot of bubba are pretty bad and just camp a lot).
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@jesterkind said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2792237#Comment_2792237
No, an M1 killer is a killer that has to rely on both basic attacks and conventional looping. If a killer has a means to avoid either of those, they're not an M1 killer, which I thought was pretty intuitive from the term. Nurse technically uses M1 attacks but she doesn't have to loop, and the opposite is also true- Bubba has to loop but he doesn't have to rely on basic attacks, so he isn't an M1 killer.
Same with Myers. While Tier 3 is active, he has to loop but he doesn't have to rely on basic attacks since he inflicts Exposed as part of his basekit. When he's in Tier 2 he's an M1 killer, but he has a little stealth to help with that and even then you can catch survivors out of position before they can get to a loop and pop your Tier 3.
I straight up have no idea where you got the notion I think instadowns make a killer strong, that's completely disconnected from anything either of us have been talking about. I said instadowns prevent him from being an M1 killer, because they do, and I said that instadowns give him an edge over the actual worst basekit killers, which they do, but I never said anything about them making a killer strong? In case I have to, I'm gonna repeat it here: Myers is not a strong killer. He is in the bottom five killers in the game, he's just not dead last; I'd personally put him at the top of that list, though it's not saying much.
"Nurse technically uses M1 attacks but she doesn't have to loop,"
"Same with Myers."
Nurse is not the same as Myers. I do not know how you conclude that they're the same.
Myers is still M1 killer in tier 2 and in tier 3. In tier 3, with bamboozle perk, he has anti-loop towards windows but as I explained above. you can simply not use windows and utilize pallets to defeat him. you can be m1 killer and have instant downs. I do not understand how this difficult to comprehend.
Using your ability does not change whether your m1 killer or not. its in the nature of the ability. Ghostface activating nightshroud during chase is still m1 killer because Nightshroud does not do much in a chase towards safe pallets.
"I straight up have no idea where you got the notion I think instadowns make a killer strong, that's completely disconnected from anything either of us have been talking about"
you said that having instant down makes you not an M1 killer. My counter-argument was that he is still m1 killer and that instant down does not matter if the survivor utilizes safe pallet loops correctly in conjunction with generator repair efficiency. I am not saying he is only m1 killer in the game, there are others, but he is probably most pure m1 killer out of any killer in the game.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2791836#Comment_2791836
I guess if you define an M1 killer as just not having a ranged attack, sure, but the fact that it's an instadown is what stops him from being an M1 killer- he only has to outplay a survivor once, versus an M1 killer who has to do it at least twice every single time. That's what separates him from the M1 killers like Trapper and Clown. Additionally, with the 99ing of Tier 3, a survivor very well may not be at a loop when you get that instadown, making this kinda moot.
There's another thing I'd want to highlight- his power doesn't necessarily rely on survivor mistakes, it relies on you outplaying the survivor. There's a subtle but important difference, because sometimes a survivor doesn't make any mistakes but you read them correctly so you still get the hit.
I also didn't say strong survivors, I said "strong 4-man" and "survivors who don't make mistakes", the former of which is much less common than some people would claim it to be and the latter of which is impossible. Yes, against strong survivors in general he does suffer, nobody's arguing that Myers is S tier, but the point is that he can still get more done more consistently than some other killers on the roster, making him not the weakest.
Here's a fun thought experiment- instead of explaining why Myers is weak, take a crack at explaining how Clown or Legion are better.
"that it's an instadown is what stops him from being an M1 killer- he only has to outplay a survivor once, versus an M1 killer who has to do it at least twice every single time."
So your definition of an m1 killer is a killer that has instantdown? I do not think that is quite what killer players define as m1 killers. when a player says that killer is m1, they mean that killer has no possibility to outplay the survivor i.e no anti-loop if the survivor does not make a mistake in safe loops. it means killer relies on their base movement speed to get hitsl M1 killers are not defined by their ability to have instant down or not. Otherwise killers like Huntress, Spirit, Nurse would be defined as M1 by your definition when they are clearly rely on their ability.
"There's another thing I'd want to highlight- his power doesn't necessarily rely on survivor mistakes, it relies on you outplaying the survivor. There's a subtle but important difference"
This leads to my second point. I do not think m1 killers outplay survivors at safe loops. M1 killers capitalize off survivor movement errors. Like when you down a survivor at jungle gym, you didn't outplay the survivor, the survivor did not know how to run tile correctly such that they do not get hit. it has very little to do with killer's skill and everything to do with survivor's inexperience/lack of skill. there is no control on killer part for whether or not they get hit. Survivor has full control over situation based off how they play the loop. they need make mistake for you to down them.
Killers that have anti-loop can outplay survivors because they can use their skills to counter survivor's counter-measures towards avoiding a hit. I will give example for what I mean by using huntress. When huntress raises her hatchet to go into throwing mode, survivors will keep moving straight to make distance as huntress is slower when in throwing mode, as this happening, survivors will try to dodge to left or right as huntress fires a hatchet. The huntress player can shoot left or right in anticipation of the survivor dodging left or right such that they run into the hatchet. This is an example of a killer outplaying a survivor. There is equal exchange of skill where the survivor can dodge the projectile but the killer has counter-play through their aim and prediction in still being able to hit the survivor.
This is difference between m1 killers and anti-loop killers. With anti-loop killers, the killer's skill has input on the outcome for whether they get hits or not. Their skill has input on outcome of chases, thus they get hooks. hook translate into kills. With m1 killers, you have hope the survivor f* up at loops. Its nothing to do with you. It to do with them.
"here's a fun thought experiment- instead of explaining why Myers is weak, take a crack at explaining how Clown or Legion are better."
If you finished reading the top on my post, you'll understand my perception on clown and legion being the same. I do not think they're better or worse, they're in same boat. According to you, what makes killer strong is the ability to instant down. In that sense, Legion is exactly that. he has anti-loop ability that always grants him first hit because he can fast vault windows, fast vault pallets and moves faster than survivor but it cannot down survivor without add-on franks mixtape which is utterly pointless right now because legion received negative rework many years ago. As for why he is better, he doesn't need work for his ability to injure survivors and he gets a bit of bonus tracking. Legion is apparently getting reworked so hopefully, maybe he gets his ability to down again hopefully more counter-play than what original version had. He is myers without actual time investment to get instant downs minus low tr & bamboozle t3 vaulting in exchange for killer instinct tracking. He's still m1 though.
Clown is claimed to have anti-loop, but his anti-loop is garbage in the sense that it doesn't do enough vs safe loops. Remember that purpose of anti-loop on killers is to shorten chases and his ability doesn't shorten chases against good players. All it tends to do is make survivors play more safe against him because greeding pallets is more risky and heavily discouraged from his hindered effect of purple tonic. At base-kit, he lacks lethality to capitalize off survivors that are out of position and even the classic health state wastes his time and produces long chases. That is why clown players use Pinky finger because at least than, he can capitalize off survivors being out of position. He is not really supposed to gain lethality from instant downs though. He is suppose use his haste and Hindered effects to catch up the survivor quickly after he hits them and the large increase in speed/hindered is suppose help him at loops to shorten chases but since his yellow bottle is situational at best from activation time and his pink bottle is not strong enough on its own, he remains in same state as he was before his rework that holistically did nothing. I would say pinky finger clown is better myers because he gets instant downs right at the start of the game instead having to work for it, but myers has tombstone piece which as I said, instantly deletes survivirs out of the game, so that is obviously stronger if you can 99% his EV2 and instant kill someone minus time investment to get there.
Kill-wise, Myers probably better with his strongest add-ons. Chase-wise and instant down wise. clown is way better. Base-kit wise, all of 3 are awful. Legion's probably best out of 3 at base-kit, but he has least impactful add-on out of 3 therefore weakest out of 3 when factoring perks/add-ons. I do not really play myer or legion. I still play pinky finger clown as I find him fun to play despite being weak, but when his add-on gets nuked completely, than I will not play him.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2790676#Comment_2790676
I 100% disagree - unless you define "survivors playing poorly" as "survivors making any mistake at all", which would be incredibly strange to do because the alternative is an insane hypothetical that would never bear out in a real match - his snowball comes from capitalising on the first down that you can get, which can happen pretty easily if you 99 his Tier 3 and wait until you're right on someone.
And I actually want to drill down on this for a second- so many arbitrary restrictions are being placed on this measurement that it kinda ceases to have any meaning. IF he has no addons, IF he has no perks, IF you're going against a good 4-man, IF survivors don't make mistakes... any one of those hypotheticals is a pretty big if to put on this discussion, and all of them at once leaves you with a result that is at best a trivia fun fact.
Regardless... as previously established, Myers isn't an M1 killer even with all of those hypotheticals (save for the last one) in play. He has an instadown and it's not one survivors can consistently avoid, that automatically gives him an edge over the actual bottom-of-the-barrel killers in the roster. Tack onto that his stealth and the fact that nobody is going to run him perkless and addonless outside of challenges, and he really shapes up, pun fully intended.
"I 100% disagree - unless you define "survivors playing poorly" as "survivors making any mistake at all"
I think this is a bit of hyperbole. All can down survivors eventually as there is not unlimited amount of safe pallets, but it is about how long it takes to get downs. he has natural slow early game so saying he can snowball on first down sounds strange given that his early game is of the level killers like Trapper and Oni.
"Myers isn't an M1 killer even with all of those hypotheticals"
Explain how he is not an m1 killer at loops. Just like clown, you can drop pallets like candy against him and he is largely forced to break safe pallets on the map. With bamboozle and tier 3, he can vault windows as fast as survivor which sounds like advantage but because the risk vs reward for vaulting windows is not there for survivor, there is not a point in using windows against tier 3 bamboozle myers. as his reach is slightly bigger but not big enough to make pallets unsafe, it makes survivors play safer around them which is not good for you as the killer as you have little answer to dropped safe pallets. The instant-down is possible to consistently avoid at loops because it relies on survivor mistakes at pallet loops to be successful. That is like definition of an m1 killer.
"I actually want to drill down on this for a second- so many arbitrary restrictions are being placed on this measurement"
I think no perks is not good measurement as once perks are unlocked, all killers can use them. Add-on can also be used semi-consistently but only after you have played the game enough to go past the BP grind. Going against strong survivors is not exactly uncommon if you are good at the game and its probably the only comparison that makes any sense when comparing killer strengths. I am not sure how to put it, but against new players and average survivors, every killer is probably S-tier as all of them win equally if your better than they are at survivor.
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@jeremycarinio said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2789323#Comment_2789323
"flight paths dont track from the center" ? have you tried playing her? her dire crows are literally faces forward at the center of killer POV. how hard that can be.
and back at you, how does it reduce the QoL? her aim assist is not even necessary to begin with. you have your POV at center, just like how a skilled huntress does it, is it?
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2789375#Comment_2789375
uhmmm no more? she is already a killer with a lot of power to give information, and power to injure at a long distance. why would you still want to buff her?
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2789478#Comment_2789478
i dont see removing her aim assist as nerfing her? a lot of killers does not even have this aim assist to correctly aim at survivors, thats pure skill. besides, the idle crows' silhouette should be enough for you how did you place your crows, and that takes 100% skill. unlike relying on that aim assist, you can even place it without consequences, as her crows recover fast.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2789856#Comment_2789856
AURA READING ON BIRDS? really? you can only see the birds MID FLIGHT, based on how far a survivor is, no time enough to react. besides you cant even see her idle crows.
Freddy snares, is technically 1m away from kliller to assist location, trapper traps are good MID gaming(based if youre really good at location spots), DEMO, oh gawd, demo is the worst as it only gives him mobility, it does not even help him with gen pressure.
"SHE IS A TRAP KILLER THAT CHANGES HER TRAPS INTO FLYING PROJECTILES", and thats exactly why she is deadly when played correctly. she is a killer designed to create a map presure, gen pressure, power to injure, while camping, is at best, which other killers dont have.
It makes birds much easier to dodge because it shows where bird direction is flying to. I would say it is little bit problematic as killer powers should not be reactionary and should be more on guessing and anticipation.
all traps have aura-reading for their placements. I am not sure why she should be an exception. You have compared to killers powers that are not related to her power. I compared to trap vs trap and projectile vs projectile. you compared it apples to oranges.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2790513#Comment_2790513
Those are all accurate reasons why he's not that strong, but they don't translate to him being the worst. Basekit stealth may be less useful, but combined with his basekit instadowns he'll always be put above other weak killers like Clown (whose only utility is to shut down certain loops if and only if the pallet isn't predropped) and Legion (who do have a lot of utility but don't do any of them particularly well).
But I do strongly disagree with one thing- he's not pigeonholed into perks at all, he's actually quite versatile. You can lean into the things he's already good at, as said above, or you can bring things that cover some gaps in his kit, or you can bring fun meme builds that range in strength...
He's certainly objectively very weak if we're putting the artificial restriction of no addons and no perks on him, but even discounting kinda busted addons like Tombstone Piece, once you evaluate him with a full build he's not the weakest by a long shot. Frankly, even without a build at all he's still better than Clown and Legion solely because he has better snowball potential.
Not leaning into his niche strengths makes him have a non-impactful power. I think if you can snowball with him, you can snowball with any killer vs that same team because myer's ability to snowball comes solely on off m1 gameplay. Given the pallet looping strength and time constraint on killers(generator efficiency), I don't think his snowball is really anything more than survivors playing poorly. I know this is going to sound alien, but I honestly think that a vast majority of the maps, an m1 killer like him can be looped for 4-5 generators.
I think that's largely the main reason why his add-ons are the way they are. When your power is as irrelevant as what he has base-kit, your only way to fix it is to jack-up the rewards for stalking to the moon. That is why he has Tombstone piece, a add-on that completely bypasses all 3 hook states and instantly deletes a survivor from the match and tuft of hair, an add-on that gives unlimited instant down capacity(permanent devour hope 3 stack). J.Myers memorial is real winner add-on that makes him not the worst killer in the game. it fixes his time inefficiencies of stalking and makes all other impactful add-ons(hair bow, tombstone piece and infinity ev3) usable. Clown's pinky finger is sorta same deal for him but he is not topic of interest in thread.
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@jesterkind said:
I disagree- you'd also need to add in perks like Monitor and Abuse before you'd have his kit, which would put you up past the amount of perks you can bring in a match.
I do disagree with the rest, though, I'm not just being pedantic- evaluating a killer solely on their base kit before addons and perks is a little misleading anyway, but the weakest basekit killer is Clown. Even factoring in (basic, not busted/iridescent/etc) addons, the weakest is still Clown, and Myers is further up than people give him credit for.
He does have a slow start, but the crucial misunderstanding is that when Tier 3 drains, he is not a basic M1 killer. He's a basic M1 killer with a smaller terror radius, which is a bigger deal than a lot of people realise- especially if you're running something like Dead Rabbit. While it still isn't much, it's stealth that he gets without needing to bring anything. You don't run any killer without bringing perks and addons, so Myers can either lean even harder into his stealth and instadowns, or run tracking and slowdown to cover his bases; he's very versatile and simply capable of far more than a killer like Clown, Legion, or even the average Trapper.
That being said, he definitely needs some help- it's just that his core design is still fundamentally sound. He doesn't need a rework, just some QoL buffs.
Lower Terror is not that meaningful vs better players.SWF can easily call out his position and run miles before your even remotely near them. The faster vaulting is almost meaningless in tier 2 and is not significant enough of a boost in tier 3 because your still forced to play around windows and make reads. The tier 1->tier 2->tier 3 is large time sink where myer is not hitting survivors, therefore not downing survivors, thus its counter-acting his instant downs which are suppose to give him greater time efficiency in the chase. Tier 3 is suppose to be myer's strongest suit yet you can counter his entire tier 3 by not healing and it ends up being that your safer not healing than healing because of dead hard as a perk for survivor. The slightly longer lunge distance is barely noticeable when it comes to changing strong loops into unsafe loops. The safe pallet loops are just as strong against him as they are on every other killer.
A big telltale that his power is lacking in power is how he needs perks to actually unlock killer power. Monitor&Abuse pushes in terror radius to 8 meters so now he finally gets stealth. Alternative, you can use dead rabbit to lower his terror radius for what other killers like wraith and ghostface get automatically for needing a perk. The same be can said about his window vaulting where you need bamboozle to not need to make reads at windows in tier 3 and make tier 2 vaulting relevant. Due to time investment needed to get to tier 3, you need get 2 or more hits to counter-act your time investment of stalking to make tier 3 more relevant than what you could do by not going tier 3. This is why infectious fright is perk that gets selected on him because it counter-acts some of bad time investment from stalking.
As you can see, he is pigeon-locked into perks to either make his tier 3 bonus or tier 2 terror radius bonus semi-relevant(vs solo) to have effective power. As OP states, his power is so simple that you can make perks out of his abilities and have shape's kit on every killer.
Its interesting to see that other people are coming same conclusion as I did many years ago where i said he was weakest killer. Myers, Clown, Legion and Ghostface are all pretty close i'd say so you can make a case for any one of those killers powers being least impactful killer powers. I wonder if they'll keep weakening pinky finger clown so clown can now also be completely add-onless.
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@Laluzi said:
Loading into Gideon Pallet Factory hinges on whether you've got a killer or build that can quickly break pallets or attack through them. If yes, the survivors are extremely screwed by design. If not, you getting anything more than a hook-trade 1k hinges on the survivors being subpar or screwing up somewhere.
The map needs more windows and less pallets. If it has to have as many pallets as it does for some incomprehensible reason, then reduce the safety and/or visibility on some of them. Every pallet upstairs has full vision on the killer and can't be mindgamed unless the survivor straight up doesn't know how to look around while chasing, so if the survivor is smart enough to take the killer around them for a couple of spins before dropping the pallet, their only option is to grin and bear it.
Then the lower floor has less loop visibility, but a bunch of god pallets for some reason, so in half of those loops, the inability to see where the killer is doesn't even matter.
This is basically every map for survivors at high-level. no anti-loop or ability break pallets instantly = lose if survivors are good at using them. When they reduce pallet count on other maps, the reduce pallet count translates into more maze tiles which are just as safe if not more broken in many cases. For example Suffocation pit has like 6 or so maze tiles in middle and it often leads to cases like T-L into T-L or like all Jungle gyms/long wall short walls that are just as god pallet-like as Gideon's pallets. If the map doesn't have +5 maze tiles with strong windows, than they make the map as big as Mother dwelling, disturb ward, Badham etc. etc. so the killer cannot hope to ever pressure generators.
So your either have
1) Indoor god pallet central
2) Outdoor mix of strong window/god pallet central
3) Map too big.
Every map is training wheel map so get used to it, killer mains™. Please take last sentence as a joke.
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@jeremycarinio said:
i suggest remove the directional aim assistance of dire crows placement of the artist.
this assistance gives her a good advantage of placement and hitting survivors correctly.
Besides, the first person POV is already your guide. Even nurse and twins has an add on for aim assistance that.
Its because her ability looked at as trap. She is comparable to freddy snares, trapper traps, demo portal which all have aim assist/visual indicators for placement for obvious reasons. She is trap killer that changes her traps into flying projectiles.
Its more of question for why survivors have aura-reading on her birds because I do not know any killer projectile power that works like that. I guess you could argue pyramid head but he is not aura reading. I'd consider his from particle effect/nature of ability. I don't like his either, I think his should just be the spikes coming at you with no lines to side, it would be fit more horror-real theme like. If pyramid head ever get add-on pass, this could be an ultra-rare add-on as it would make it harder to dodge his ranged attack which would be fitting.
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@Malkhrim said:
What annoys me about Pinhead is that, while his passive is what makes him have such a high kill rate (because the survivors have to deal with it regardless of the killer's skill), his possessed chain ability is quite underwhelming in chases and that has been mentioned on player feedback SINCE HE WAS ON PTB, but devs won't buff it because of his kill rates. If survivors know the right time to do the box, however, your passive doesn't do that much. In other words: while he is really oppresive against most players, he is not a threat against skilled survivors that know how to counter him. And because of his passive, devs won't buff his active ability, which still has ridiculous flaws such as... Pinhead breaking his own chains by walking towards the chained survivor.
that statement can apply to like 75% of the killers. A vast majority of killers are not threat for skilled survivors but just about all the killers have high enough kill-rate that they will stay static or be become worse. The part that annoys me the most about pinhead is how his chains break on environment. Look at chain at 9:45 -9:55. At least 10+ chains broke on environment.
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@HectorBrando said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2783822#Comment_2783822
You are not understanding me, the Difficulty parameters are related to how easy/hard the power and the perks are to use, the simplest the power the easiest it is, IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HOW EASY IT IS TO GET 4K.
A new player with poor aim will be landing knives because its a continous stream of them, missing 3 or 4 its not a problem, he doesnt stop, you dont need to re-aim, actually the more you miss the easier it becomes to land for he tosses them faster and becomes more accurate, with Huntress you have to raise, aim, if you miss you have to re-raise and aim again and you have only 5 attempts, plus the speed of the proyectile changes depending on how long you raised the hatchet, is way harder to play her than Trickster, even if she is stronger.
Also you are mixing baby tricksters after a rank reset, any newcomer is going to struggle against seasoned players, period, the "difficulty" thing assumes newcomers face newcomers but then again, 4k has nothing to do with the difficulty on the profiles.
You keep using the kill rate as a metric for the difficulty which I repeat, ITS NOT RELATED, difficulty only measures how hard to use and understand the power and the perks are, ITS NOT RELATED TO STRENGTH OF THE KILLER OR HOW IT PERFORMS AT HIGH RANKS JUST HOW EASY IT IS TO UNDERSTAND.
I know the Easy/Intermediate/Hard is busted, nowhere in my post I said it was accurate I was clarifying they are related to ease of use and not perceived strength like some people tought, a lot of the difficulty settings are from release and they didnt change with the Killers getting changed, even Freddy remained as hard (he was actually quite hard to play in its original iteration and confusing to understand) when now its super simple after the rework.
by that logic, most of the killer powers are would be label easy by your definition. simplicity is not related to difficulty rating. Nurse's power can be described in one sentence, charge power and release to dash to forward to a location based off charge. Freddy has like 4 passives and 2 activate abilities. It doesn't mean nurse is easy and freddy is hard because one has simple power where as other has more complicated power.
difficulty rating has almost nothing to do with simplicity. it has everything to do with how easy killer is to pick-up(skill-floor) and how much is there is to learn(skill-ceiling). Typically, players like characters that have low-skill floor because they're newbie friendly and high-skill ceiling as it gives them a lot of room to grow as a player.
"A new player with poor aim will be landing knives because its a continous stream of them, missing 3 or 4 its not a problem, he doesnt stop, you dont need to re-aim, actually the more you miss the easier it becomes to land for he tosses them faster and becomes more accurate,"
I had to hold my laugh when reading this. first of all, having a mechanic for shooting faster over-time is not an advantage. it is disadvantage. it would be better if there was no mechanic for shooting faster and he just shot faster by default and had consistent fire-rate. this is like saying that huntress would be better off if she had longer hatchet-wind-up when she carries more hatchets and shorter wind-up when she carries less. this would not positive change for her. I'd be very confused with that mechanic. Tricksters fire-rate poorly thought out of mechanic that just makes aiming harder due to random fire-rate.
secondly, he needs re-aim every second because he fires a knife every 0.5 seconds. presumably, your trying to hit every knife. Its other way around. Huntress doesn't re-aim because she aims once every 20-30 seconds. he aims every second in throwing mode. its just how tracking aim vs flick aim works.
lastly, to touch on some brief points. huntress projectile speed is somewhat advantage in certain situations because it allows you to do dip-shots. Being inaccurate at trickster knives in combination of throwing faster means you run out of ammo faster which is more punishing for the new player. The more you throw as trickster, the slower your throwing movement speed becomes which means the survivor gets more distance on you, adding more ambiguous punishment.
so now that I finished decomposing your statements, as you see, his skill-floor for new player is not newbie friendly hence why his kill-rate is very low among low-medium MMR play but my guess is that a player that mains trickster probably has nominal stats that are comparable to other killers just like nurse has nominal stats for players that are good at her.
If you read @Adjatha post, Its not really worth playing most of harder killers because they do not offer enough pay-off for learning them. difficult rating is not related to power but it has some indirect correlation. For players that have put a lot of hours into the game, they have hit personal peak for the killers which is near top of the mountain but because the killers are too weak, they can't advance their gameplay. They have too low of skill-ceiling. they get to top of the mountain too quickly and the mountain is not tall enough to beat stronger survivor teams in my analogy.
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@HectorBrando said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2783454#Comment_2783454
Im talking about the "easy/intermediate/hard" parameter on each Killer ingame profile being related to how easy they are to use and play and not how strong they are, THOSE ARE DIFFERENT THINGS.
Trickster is literally look at someone and spam knives, he is super easy to use unlike Oni who needs practice to use his power properly, a new player is going to have a much easier time looking at someone and tossing knives than trying to land a Demon Dash, a Hillbilly saw or a Huntress hatchet.
All that wall of text about power levels, skill ceilings, kill ratings etc is meaningless around the difficulty OF USE NOT PERFORMING STRENGTH.
Oni is normal 115% m/s killer. he doesn't need his ability to play the game. His ability empowers him to be more effective. Trickster is 110% m/s, he is worse than basic m1 killer and as such, he requires his ability to be effective. Your statement is overgeneralizing his ability. I could same statement that huntress is look at someone and throw hatchets but that is not indicative of her skill-cap. A new player that has poor aim will not be downing survivors with knifes. Instead, they'll miss a lot and have to reload. FPS skills is not natural talent that many players are good at. Tracking skill in particular is not to be underestimated. When MMR wasn't in the game, sometimes as survivor, you would face these baby tricksters when the game had rank resets. They're as hopeless as new nurse player hence why trickster's kill-rate is among lowest in the game. As peanut said, it doesn't mean that nurse and trickster are worst 2 killers in the game. it just means that they're harder to pick-up and play well on average lvl.
Your post is exactly proving my point that deciding difficult rating for killer is difficult. your saying trickster is easy and I'm saying he is hard for average new player because most new players generally are not talented at tracking skill/flick shot skill without extensive practice.
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@HectorBrando said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2783082#Comment_2783082
Easy/Intermediate/Hard is not related to their strength, its related to how easy they are to play (this applies to Survivors, how easy they are to play their perks, for example Ace's perks are all pasive bonuses, they are easy to use even if useless).
Huntress is harder than Trickster because landing a hatchet is way way harder than landing the knives, with Huntress you have to aim, with Trickster you can just spam the knives and eventually enough of them will land, a newcomer will have a much easier time with Trickster than with Huntress.
what are you talking about? Trickster has 2nd lowest kill-rate in the entire game. I repeat, he has 2nd lowest kill-rate in the game behind nurse. Basically, if nurse didn't exist, he would literally be lowest kill-rate killer entire game. Its not hard to even see why.
In other FPS games that have tracking as a skill, The time to kill is very low. you can go to cs-go, overwatch, call of duty, heck even halo infinity and in all of these games have one thing in common. your health pool is not very high therefore when wielding a smg-automatic type weapon, you only need track for < 3 seconds, so a lot of tracking skill and flick aim ends up being quite similar in those games from time to kill.
With trickster, his time to kill is considerably higher because he needs 12 knifes to down. 12 knifes to down at least compare traditional fps games is eternity so realistically, trickster spends more time aiming than huntress. its why many people joke about trickster being bootleg huntress that needs land 12 tiny hatchets to down. Tricksters that have bad aim are awful and end up being as bad baby nurses. he has high skill-floor with similar skill-ceiling as huntress with slightly lower pay-off(power-level in my opinion).
If he was so easy, he'd be higher or about same kill-rate as huntress.
difficulty rating are hard to comprehend because its entirely subjective on skill-floor, skill-cieling and power-level. the greatest analogy I can give is mountain.
Power-level is how high mountain goes. Its how much reward/pay off you get when you master a character.
Skill-floor is how high you start on mountain. its often labeled as entry-level of the character.
Skill-ceiling is how hard it is to climb mountain and how much time it takes to get to the peak level of that character. It is how much you have to learn.
Its hard to rate difficulty of a character because what is low or high is subjective to each player like with trickster. some player might think he is easy but globally, stats suggests otherwise that he is not that easy pick-up and most player struggle to perform average on him.
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@Sluzzy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2781397#Comment_2781397
That is not fair counterplay though. What if a Leatherface politely walks up in a jungle gym where I have no LOS and instantly downs me with no warning? Not all gens are out in the open so you can see the killer everywhere.
Now I will agree about RDP, but that is really a map issue instead of perk. There shouldn't be a specific location that is always safe. All they need to do is make hooks randomized where it will sometimes spawn one in the library and sometimes not. To the contrary, how often do you wiggle free in other areas?
boil over is very specific SWF build I think. so basically strategy is to run dead hard+boil over+break out+coh. killer if he hits anyone, the killer will physically be unable to hook survivor from boil over+break out. if you bring toolbox with any type of speed to sabotage, you can literally stand on a hook, force killer to hit you and than sabotage in their face and dead hard right after. All hits that you take from bodyblock can now be healed through circle of healing.
hypothetically a killer can get zero hooks because he physically cannot do objective unlike blight that merely slows objective down.
@StarLost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2781407#Comment_2781407
You'll hear him coming, Leatherface has fat feet and the saw gives a distinctive noise too. If you suspect Tinkerer, the counterplay is using your other prompts (audio, visual) when the gen reaches 70%. Inside a jungle gym is absolutely ideal, as if you just vault you stop him completely.
A nice trick to counter Tink is to immediately leave any gen once you've taken it to 70%, wait a few seconds then get back on it. If the killer comes over, he'll waste a ton of time.
RPD, Eyrie and IWOM all have those spots, and other maps have spots that are pretty close.
It's easy to say 'oh, just fix the maps' - but this is something that is clearly very difficult for BHVR to do. It took them literally years to fix the spots where you couldn't pick survivors up.
It's easier just to remove that aspect of the perk and rework it in another way. Wriggling free should be a rare event caused by killer counterplay or a concerted team effort, because it's insanely punishing for the killer - and causes them to lose points. It's never nice to be punished for something out of your control.
If wiggling off is rare event, than why would anyone use boil over? entire point of the perk is to wiggle off which also applies to sabotage. The exact reason why nobody uses boil over in past is because boil over did nothing and was realistically worthless.
bare in mind, I am not saying that having infinity decisive strikes from wiggling off is exactly fair game. Just my guess to why sluzzy might be defending it.
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@StarLost said:
At least at night?
Seriously, there must be such a deficit of killers right now that as soon as survivor count reaches a critical mass, it's just...not fun anymore. Games will be ridiculous, unfun and I have to dodge multiple lobbies in a row to avoid crazy 3000 hour SWFs - which only makes the problem worse.
During the day, matches feel mostly even. I'll win some, lose some - but never feel like I have no chance. At night though, I can go from rolling over a team of newbies to sweating for my 2 hooks and getting teabagged all the way to the exit gates by a sweaty SWF with more hours in this game than I spent getting my Masters.
On top of this, everyone and their cat is running frigging Boil Over right now, and even when it's not being used to take the match hostage (which I've seen no less than 5 times in the last few days - as soon as it's RPD, I may as well just DC and save myself the headache of bleeding people out - and I save more time in the bargain) it's just annoying.
Honestly, I think that until the much lauded SBMM changes go live, it's probably going to have to be a hiatus again. Because this game is the opposite of fun right now - and I say that as someone who prefers SBMM to ranks.
Of course there is deficit. they keep nerfing killer every single patch. According to Patrick and Peanut, they said that they do not balance killers for SWF because they say that they tend to be too strong vs solo. conversely, that means that its fine for killers to be complete crap and have auto-lose matches. So take that for what you will.
I think you should look to find killers you enjoy losing with given that dev don't really play the game and work off low/new player mmr stats to balance the game. Its good to be making these posts for their attention, however there won't be anything changing for killer until June.
I do not think they understand that when 100 killers stop playing the game, that is 400 survivors that suddenly have to wait, where as if a single survivor stop playing, Its not changing a whole lot in grand scheme of things. Also, when good killers stop playing the game, it has poor trickle down effect on matchmaking where lower bracket killers now have to be facing those swf and eventually those players leave, so its just one massive snowball rolling down cliff.
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Circle of healing and all other healing boosting perks are inherently designed to counter sloppy butcher and other negative healing debuffs.
Instant downs and broken status effect(such as plague, bubba, etc.) are meant to counter healing.
The negative healing debuff perks are suppose keep survivor injured when healing perks are not in play. In the past, I used to use sloppy butcher and thanatophobia because I noticed that before COH was invented, survivors had poor healing options in regards to perks and their good healing options were limited, so the idea that I could equip two perks and keep entire team in instant down status was like amazing deal. Its in part to why survivor's complained about forever freddy because he would hit them once and from that point on, they were basically injured entire game vs a killer that had decent chase potential. hence they nerfed that to the ground.
from personal point of view, out of all killer aspects of playing killer, my most demised aspect of playing killer is bodyblocking. I hate body-block with a passion. Bodyblocking is probably the activity that makes you feel like your 5 cent killer with no power. its often the activity that survivors use stimulate to showcase their power-role complex. So negative healing perks was a way for me to deter survivors from bodyblocking. To explain why bodyblocking is effect. Killers get slowdown when they hit a survivor and survivor get speed boost so in cases like EGC, its free escape from exit gate and during normal gameplay, its great counter to tunneling. It can really hurt you in long run as killer vs strong teams as showcased in the whole tru3ta1ent vs Oracle wraith videos.
self-care does not need a nerf, so that never happening. Boon totems as a whole were suppose to be limited area effects that empower the survivor in limited area. In their words, boons were meant to be strategically placed. COH is not a limited area effect. its global ability that unlocks the ability for every player to self-care on the map at near med-kit level speeds. There is no real strategy to it. Its just strong bonus without much thought process that survivors run to when they're injured. survivors already cheat perk economy pretty hard from 16 vs 4, so COH really exaggerated perk economy even harder to like 18 vs 4. speed is definitely a strength of the perk. I would say that COH is like fake 5th survivor on the team that heals you for free. I think the defining strength though of the perk is that it disincentives the killer to injure multiple survivors because injuring as a whole lacks any reward/meaning with it active.
With med-kits, med-kits have limited charges and not every lobby is 4 med-kits, so not every survivor is pointless to injure and there is a point where the med-kit run out and injuring becomes rewarding. COH is not like that, it never run out so its global deterrent all the time. I think boon perks would be better off if they were global like killer perks and only affected individual user. At least than, many survivor would need to equip perk and spend time looking for totems and the perk is less of global deterrence and more of powerful individual bonus. Other suggestions regarding boons have been that the killer can break totem permanent so that COH has high risk/high reward element to it.
I think just that overall, decreasing healing speed is boring way to balance healing perks because they often just incentivize the survivor to not heal and push generators faster by utilizing pallets as second chance health states because doing generators becomes faster than healing itself which is why self-care is looked down upon as a perk.
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@TAG said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2774793#Comment_2774793
I have been slamming for several games, and it makes the ambush actually able to AMBUSH someone. It is honestly making me second-guess my opinions on the add-on the whole time (to an extent, since it WAS buffed).
The add-on was always 16 meters since its buff like 4 years ago. The effect was always really good. Removing your other powers was really bad though so most people didn't use it. your forced to run jigsaw sketch+Amanda letter to make it not erase your trap power. 3 traps and aura reading is not too bad.
main issue with pig crouch is slow movement. I dislike how they made a crouch movement speed add-on instead of just increasing her crouch movement to normal 115%. its very counter-productive to add-on. your suppose get into chase quicker with add-on but moving so slow like snail is like counter-productive to finding players quickly. For that reason, I think crouch pig is still underpowered among her super lackluster anti-loop that is too easy to counter. I guess its just balanced for rank 20 new players. Too high kill-rate apparently.
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@Madjura said:
Boil Over on Ormond, the upstairs area with the long path that leads to a hole in the wall with a pallet nearby. If you get downed up there, the Killer has to drop down, as walking back to the stairs would give even more than the 25% of progress.
A totem spawned nearby that let me heal myself with Circle of Healing. If someone goes down up there as Killer you either have to give them the 25% progress hit from dropping, or go down, break the totem, go back up and then try and hook or leave them downed. I could have had a medkit, in which case the option of destroying the totem doesn't exist. If you ignore them up there then they can just heal.
a long time ago, they changed a mechanic where dropping a survivor no longer removes like 25%(1/4) wiggle meter. I believe its now 1/6 of current wiggle meter. so if you are next to a ledge, you can just drop survivor instead giving them a lot of wiggle progress.
there is one map where it is very exploitable. Badham preschool without preschool basement which is really easy to do (just burn shack basement offering) is one such place where old boil over was really powerful. badham has always had hook placement problem though. in old days, there used to be a purple offering that would remove hooks and people used to stack 3 of those hook removal offerings on badham preschool. Eventually they reworked that offering to be hook spawn proximity increase. I imagine with new boil over, its probably guaranteed escape.
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@GannTM said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2768976#Comment_2768976
Hillbilly isn’t that fun to play anymore. He got gutted :(
spirit is not that fun to play anymore, nor is she fun to vs anymore. Ever since Stridor got gutted for spirit, I have seen a very low amount of spirit. Its fair to say that when Stridor got gutted, so did spirit. Iron will makes spirit have to blindly guess with no information which is unfun for killer because the killer has to make many more guesses in a single match than a survivor, like on average a killer makes about 20~ reads/pathing guess in looping(chase) assuming the killer acquires 7 or more hooks. Entirely blindly guessing over half-the time and playing entirely on complete intuition is just not a very consistent way to play killer. The equivalent for survivor would be like needing pallet stun the killer on every single pallet to not get hit.
In order to make spirit not blindly guess, they invented an add-on that mirrors what stridor used to do for spirit which is cherry blossom. The add-on is not very fun for spirit because it takes away her skill-cap which is sound-tracking and turns her into a reaction vision killer.
From survivors perceptive, spirit is very unfun to play against because part of the fun of playing survivor against her is not knowing her location and not being able to react to her ability while manipulating her sound cues. manipulating sound cues is too risky because of threat of spirit cherry blossom and instead of putting pallets down on same side/other side, you can just listen for her so there is no prediction based gameplay. It just devolves into spirit get stunned at pallets. pallet too safe? Spirit breaks pallet, rince repeat. Pallet unsafe? Spirit wastes time getting her ability back because she moves at 110% and sucks at playing pallets, so its just gamble get hit at a pallet for what other killers that move at 115% can do easier without needing their ability who also have safety net if they fail by bloodlust.
In general, deathslinger and spirit was my favorite killer to play against as survivor. I liked them because they did not rely as much on reactionary gameplay and revolved more on intuition and prediction based gameplay. Due to the nature of their powers, their powers had limited scope where there wasn't consistent mind game everywhere but an expected mindgame that both sides had fair shot at winning/losing. It sum up to why i dislike vs nurse because there too many possible mindgames everywhere and often main strategies to create mindgames are to use large layers of LOS blocking, high-blinking(places where nurse cannot slow her blink down) or utilize vertical-movement(forces nurses to pay attention to the left-right instead of exclusively forward-back).
Given how dry/impractical her current gameplay is, its not surprising that she is not played.
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@Yankus said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2767190#Comment_2767190
This would be too OP on Doctor. Maybe if they can buff it to 100% but exclude doctor?
doctor with purple calm and yellow calm has 44 meter base terror radius. 0.26*44 is 11.44. When not using static blast, he already has 56 meter terror radius. 56 meters is a really large area considering that killers are not stationary and most survivors do not go on very outskirts of the map. so for most maps, its covering a good chunk of maps. doctor might be only character that can actually these type perks on 90% of the maps and still nobody really uses them because there are simply better options.
@egg_ said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2767190#Comment_2767190
I’m sure a map wide infectious fright won’t be a problem at all on mobile and slugging killers /s
Like anyone would run distressing over monitor&abuse with infectious. who really runs both monitor&abuse+distressing at same time with infectious. its just overkill and not effective.
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by virtue of equipping the perk, on average, noed increases killer's killrate by 1. If your going by raw kill statistics, its most impactful killer perk out of all them because if the perk didn't activate, it means that you didn't need it because you outperform opposition so much that it was not required.
Even a survivor team knows you have NOED, It does not become ineffective, it merely changes the perk to a generator slowdown perk. OTZ made a video at point, It is title as "What's the best anti-totem perk? | Dead by Daylight", In his experiment, he was trying figure out how long it takes for survivors to cleanse all 5 totems assuming no perks. on average, it would take 2 minutes with 2 players. 2 minutes for 2 player being afk is a large amount of time, blows out every generator defense perk in the game.
many would say that noed is very unskillful perk, anyone can use it but that couldn't be further from truth. when the survivor guess that the killer has the perk, the killer needs to put time pressure on survivors to make cleansing as difficult such that cleansing/finding totems might not be practical time investment. furthermore, the killer needs to be able to deal a lot of damage when noed becomes active to get value out of the perk. Its one of those perks that can sometimes 0ks in 3k or at very least challenge the survivor for their escape
detective hutch+map is only real perk item combination that questions its effectiveness. both item and perk are not that common.
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buff distressing to be 100% terror radius increase instead of 26%.
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@Predated said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2762722#Comment_2762722
You dont seem to know what a negative confirmation spiral is. Basically, you loop for 5 gens, taking 6 minutes, NOED, get facecamped, die, lose a lot of MMR, face worse killers BUT also get worse teammates. So you loop for 5 gens again, this time for 8 minutes, NOED, get facecamped, die again, even worse killer, but also even worse teammates, loop 5 gens for 10 minutes, at which point pallets run out, killer doesnt even need NOED at this point because he can trigger bloodlust 3 like 8 times anyway, get facecamped, teammates too scared to rescue or dont even have BT to rescue, die first again, face an even worse killer, and even worse teammates, loop only 3 gens for 10 minutes because teammates dont even work on gens anymore.
You can see why this is an issue, right? You should never, EVER create a negative loop in MMR.
Then you also have the reverse, where because of this loop, lower MMR killers still GAIN MMR while they lost the game. Because a good survivor with 1900 MMR got backfilled in a 900 MMR lobby, but the killer with 800 MMR also got backfilled, now this killer kills the good survivor after chasing for 5 gens, and the killer doesnt lose as much MMR because the 900 MMR survivors are higher, so he loses less MMR when they escape, but because the good survivor had a ton of MMR, he gains a lot of MMR for killing that survivor first, and since its the first survivor to die, he might gain 40 MMR from killing that good survivor, and lose 10 MMR per survivor that escaped. Meaning a nett gain of 10 MMR in a game that was lost. This is ofcourse a bit of an extreme, but that shouldnt happen.
Patrick is right, if one side wins, the other side is supposed to lose. But sacrificing yourself on hook for a 3 man escape is still a viable tactic. So why do you lose MMR if it causes you to win?
the probabilities of death spiral are astronomically low. Its like scoring 5 goals in a hotkey game on average and losing. The reverse is even less true because if the better player is dying before worse player, than is he even considered a higher MMR player at that point? as far as game is concerned, the better player is boosted and needs to be adjusted downwards and the worse player is outperforming him.
I think they could easily fix the whole 3 man escape, 1 person dies in EGC scenario by making it that one survivor player does not lose MMR if 3 people escape in the game. The killer would not gain MMR for killing one survivor in EGC and would only lose MMR for 3 other survivors escaping. it still remains consistent with one side wins, other side loses. The survivor who doesn't lose MMR is technically still gaining MMR by not losing it similar to the hatch.
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@StarLost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2763263#Comment_2763263
I'm not sure if I'd go that far - even though, yes, there is a definite financial interest in catering towards survivor players due to how easy it is to make cosmetics for them.
I just think that their balance philosophy is headed in a very bizarre and pretty awful direction.
there balance philsophy has always cater to super casual player-base. how is that bizarre.
"This is already evident for people who play higher MMR survivor games - endless streams of Blights, Nurses and Huntresses (with the occasional basement Bubba), and if this balance philosophy carries forward - it's only going to get worse from there."
by your logic, you want them to buff nurse & blight when those killers already do well in comparison to the rest of the cast by the fact that we play against them so much. How would this be improving variety?
"Or am I missing the point?"
I think the point your missing is that casual player-base keeps asking for negative killer changes like... "Alchemist ring is too strong on blight", "All-seeing blood is unfair on wraith", "Pinky finger clown instant down". Its almost like the game needs two different versions of killer, one that is weak and that casual players can play against in which it is balanced for low MMR and strong version of a killer for people that can actually handle stronger killers and embraces challenge in trying to defeat challenging killers.
I kinda wish that killer add-on were locked by MMR so that lesser skilled players would never face stronger versions of the killer and the higher MMR you go as survivor, the more powerful add-ons get unlocked so the killer player has actual chance against better players because he can use stronger add-ons vs stronger survivors to actually compete. this allows you to have multiple versions of a killer that is both strong and weak at the same time. I'm sure high MMR players could handle old all-seeing blood wraith which let say would be usable if you get to max wraith MMR if this add-on was iri add-on.
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@GiveMeBoops said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2764836#Comment_2764836
This works when you play with same players over and over again.
But if you want to play with random players on official discord for example, most of them just can't do that. Most players can't even talk while being in chase, because they need to focus on that chase.
I already consider SWF being really easy and this would make it worse.
I want to see their system of what action is which survivor is doing. I really don't wanna have game give me all information, where I basically don't have to think about anything. That's just boring for me.
"This works when you play with same players over and over again."
Survivors have moments of down time where there are not many mindgames really going on during the chase. I mean suppose one of the many jungle gyms that can spawn on growning storehouse. The killer has to break the pallet meaning that the survivor will be making distance as normal killer kick pallet break is very slow. I refer to this part of the chase as the "Shift+W" part of the chase.
this part of chase is same for just about everyone so I don't see how calling out the position is difficult at all. I imagine official discord is just filled with a bunch of new... player so to speak. Obviously new players need to take time to learn the game. New survivors can't really understand this because they do not know layout of the map.
I am talking about players that decent at the game and have enough time in the game they know what killer powers do and the maps, not brand new players.
Survivor is not the most complex role. I don't think information suddenly makes you good at looping killers or make you suddenly have amazing teamplay. It just enables to have option to make better plays. I'm sure new system that they're implementing will help but I'm not entirely convinced that it will bridge gap that much.
For example, If i see the icon that 3 people are on generators as teammate, I still do not know what generator they are on so there is still chance that as I loop a killer for example, I might bring the killer to one of the generators that my teammate is working on. With bond, that never happens, you will always be able to loop killers away from your team. Suppose they make healing icon for when other survivors heal, you still won't know where they are healing. With bond or kindred, you just see their aura. with SWF, they just optimize this automatically. that's why they're so fast at the objective. these are just some of examples of why I think it will not really bridge gap that much.