Archol123
Archol123
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I don't know about the different queues to be honest... Might split matchmaking to bad und put survivor that just want to have fun in a more competitive setting than needed :/
Also to come back to spirit... there are really not many pallets she has to break, even with only yellow addons... Not even pallets at jungle gyms.... Shack yes, Crane yes, and so on... But she can play around most of the other ones...
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@Reinami said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3280914#Comment_3280914
Let's do some math here:
Some data:
Survivor movement speed: 4.0 m/s
Survivor post hit movement speed duration: 1.8 seconds
Survivor post hit movement speed: 6.0 m/s
Killer movement speed: 4.6 m/s
Killer movement speed while carrying survivor: 3.68 m/s
Killer Terror Radius: 32 meters
Killer hit cooldown: 2.7 seconds
Killer pick up speed: 3 seconds
Killer hook speed: 1.5 seconds
Generator repair speeds: 90 seconds
Average distance to hook: 12 meters
Average human response time: 273 ms (https://humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime)
Average map size: 9850 square meters (~99.25x99.25 meters for a square)
So, let's assume killers and survivors all spawn at opposite ends of the map. The survivors spend the first 20 seconds looking for a generator and the killer spends the first 20 seconds running to the opposite end of the map. With a killer having a 32 meter terror radius, and taking into account movement speeds and human reaction time. if we take the human reaction time and 6x it to account for figuring out the direction the killer is coming from and making sure you can run the opposite direction, the survivor will spot the killer in 1638 ms. To make math simpler let's round it up to 2 second. during this time the killer gets 4.6 meters closer. So now the killer is 22.8 meters away. During this time the survivor runs in the exact opposite direction of the killer.
Remember, no powers, no pallets, no windows, just a straight line. In order for the killer to catch up to the 5 meters (lunge is 6 meters but taking into account human reactions and lag and spinning and such, we say 5) required for lunge distance the killer needs to move 17.8 meters to close the gap. The difference in movement speed between them is .6, this means the killer closes the 17.8 meter gap in 29.66 seconds. The killer then lands a hit.
The survivor then runs in a straight line and the killer is unable to move much for 2.7 seconds. During 1.8 of those seconds the survivor is moving at 6 m/s and for 4 m/s for .9 seconds. This means the survivor gets 14.4 meters way. The killer now has to close a gap of 9 meters for a lunge. It takes the killer 15 seconds to catch up to the survivor and land another hit.
The killer now picks the survivor up taking 5.7 seconds (3 seconds for picking up, and 2.7 seconds for attack cooldown), and they walk to the nearest hook about 12 meters away. This takes 3.25 seconds, the hooking action takes 1.5 seconds.
The time to find this survivor, hit them once, catch up, hit them again, pick them up walk to a hook and hook them took: 29.66 + 15 + 5.7 + 3.25 + 1.5 = 55.11 seconds. This would mean the killer would likely lose 2 gens in the first chase. (just barely reaching the 3rd survivor before it finishes).
Notes:
I know people will say "but powers exist", yes, yes they do, but i eliminated as many variables as possible, we are just talking about running in straight lines right now. I know people will say, "but don't focus that survivor down, change targets and go back to patrolling gens". This is also true, but if the killer does this, the survivor being chased will start to heal (medkit/healing meta) and only takes 16 seconds to do so, while it takes the killer 37 seconds to land the first hit. This means that that survivor can be back on a gen by the time the killer lands their next hit.
That's exactly why large maps where you can see the killer coming anytime are a huge problem... The prerunning is just ridiculous... Just out of curiosity... During the weapon whipe animation... The killer still moves a little... Did you find numbers on how fast he is during that? I think it is neglectable for that example... But I'm just curious ^^
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@Wewantjason said:
Killer is just impossible and this game is going to die in a year. I just went back to playing survivor this week. After they buffed killers with that one patch that added gen time every casual survivor quit and now you can’t do two or three hooks before all five gens are done
now they are just releasing bad killers and needing good ones
one more toxic survivor match and I’m loading in with insidious and lightborn every single game for five days while I go do other things
the devs actively hate killer players being in the game for some reason
A little bit overdramatic are we? ^^ I mostly play solo survivor and sure it is mostly rough, but I get some fun chases out of it so it's fine... And considering the player numbers we get from steam it is not like all the casual players left... Just because the game mostly has casual players and not that many really good players...
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@LiveBritishReaction said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3280850#Comment_3280850
Okay, what’s your point?
What I stated below, that basekit nurses mobility really is not that good... And when you change her base movement speed to 4.2 m/s she does not get much out of it to use her blink while following survivors, unless you need to go through walls or up and down floors maybe... The chance that you might miss a blink will make it worse to use it instead of following normally, because by following normally you only go 0.0325 m/s slower... that is a little more than 3 cm... It is just not worth it to blink unless you do it to get the hit... That's my point, I thought it was fairly obvious...
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@Vampwire said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3279696#Comment_3279696
Every killer main on the forums will tell you they're at peak MMR going against comp squads at all times lol. That's why they have to play starstruck nurse with noed just to win against these sweaty survivors.
Does not make it more true, even though they repeat it all the time ^^ There was some information from dataminers a while ago, giving out some numbers about mmr:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHEkN-oDLrkIn the description you find the original video scott is referring to, and it is quite interesting to watch...
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We can also have a look at the comp tierlist provided by Knightlight (Player for team eternal, currently the strongest comp team in DBD):
You can get to this by going to https://www.twitch.tv/knightlight and typing !tierlist in the chat... I guess we can assume that S and A tier killers can compete in a comp setting, and are therefore viable in "High MMR"... Also notice that Blight is above spirit even though you assumed it the other way around...
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@Reinami said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3280914#Comment_3280914
Artist cannot, plague cannot, pyramid head cannot, wesker cannot, blight probably cannot, spirit can with god tier addons only.
Try playing at that level before assuming.
I didn't assume... But as I showed you before there are showcase videos where comp players play this against each other...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIiGws6MTwk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YfXTWsgkxII don't assume anything here... You're the one assuming stuff here... Spirit only needs yellow addons to become really oppressive, she is weaker without addons, but still a beast... You don't provide anything to base your opinion that those killers would not be viable in a comp setting... And if you want to bring this down to comp players not playing by comp rules but in normal matchmaking, then we are back to the point where the killer can also bring every addon they desire... Also I would like to say that most players at that level don't really go for normal matchmaking, I once heard Hens saying, that they did the streak only once a weak because it is just boring to do at some point, because most matches just end in like 5 minutes... And basically all they did was doing gens, and maybe looping the killer for a short amount of time until he gave up because he would not get at hit most of the time...
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@Reinami said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3280898#Comment_3280898
I don't think you understand how slow 4.2 still is and HALVING the range of her blinks makes them much much weaker.
"And nurse is the only killer who stands a chance at competing against that, so until THAT is fixed, she should not be "nerfed" The idea here though, is this rework allows for easier numbers tweaks without completely destroying her, or making her overpowered."
Or Spirit, Blight, Artist, Plague, Pyramid Head and maybe even Wesker... It is a bit overdramatic dude...
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@Reinami said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3280898#Comment_3280898
I don't think you understand how slow 4.2 still is and HALVING the range of her blinks makes them much much weaker.
I mean it is basically as slow as she currently is when only one blinking... 4.2325 m/s to be exact... And since line of sight cannot get broken anymore you can just follow until you are in blink range... Which is boring as hell... And since your blink is only 10 m long you will basically guarantee a hit at this distance... The only good thing about it is the lullaby/TR but then again every other exposed perk would still work...
It just turns her into a boring medium/low range anti loop killer like the other 10...
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@roundpitt said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3280868#Comment_3280868
Oh no, he also had tons of bugs. Dumb stuff like if you used your power near a downed survivor you would hit them.
Trying to throw a survivor off a ledge would just cancel your power and do nothing. (This one is still broken)
Not being able to hit survivors with his power was just game breaking though.
Ok, but besides him being buggy... What was wrong with his general design? I mean his concept is great, sure as always Killers are really buggy at first and the infinite sliding thing was annoying and hillarious at the same time...
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@roundpitt said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3280857#Comment_3280857
He wasn’t well designed when they released him. They gave him a huge nerf after the PTB which was a knee jerk reaction. It was painfully obvious they didn’t even test it.
So just to be clear about that... The only thing you consider about him that was not well designed is that the hitbox of his charge attack was bad? In two ways... colliding with objects and survivors was to easy so they changed that until he was like he is now... But the concept of his power was already good... I think the fine tuning was quite minor to be honest.
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@Malkhrim said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3278855#Comment_3278855
There's also another detail: survivors can see whenever his power is ready and what is the next guard he will summon, because the symbol representing them appears floating in his arm, so anyone close enough can see.
Yeah, but then again those guards basically all do the same and are not different enough to be only used to their strenght...
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@roundpitt said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3279696#Comment_3279696
Wesker was weak when they released him. You would hit a survivor with his power but pass through them without doing damage. The collision box was too small.
Yes, and it got fixed soon after... so what is the point? I'm not really sure which way around it was... I believe on the ptb he had double the collision box that he had after release and then they went in between those two values for the final version right? And I would only consider that a minor flaw that they had on their radar pretty much immediatly and got fixed soon... So I don't see how that changes something about him being a well designed killer?
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@jinx3d said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3280825#Comment_3280825
not once did i mention mmr. my main killer is a c tier and after one or two good games im paired against the biggest ######### tryhards. i want fair games, whether i win or not. i want to be able to put up a fight, not stomp/get stomped.
Yeah but you said something about after ten games... Which would imply to me that you think after ten games your matches will get harder... Don't know man, usually it is just a map or map spawn problem...
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And for every second you don't use your blink you loose another 15 cm... So just following is the far safer option with your change...
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@LiveBritishReaction said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3280819#Comment_3280819
Right, because a killer who moves 5% faster than you is gonna be so good at catching up.
2 seconds of holding the blink while going 2.89m/s ; 1.5 seconds of travelling 13.33 m/s ; 1.5 seconds of chain blink window 1.54m/s 2 seconds of fatigue 0.96m/s and then 1 second of normal movementspeed so 3.85m/s (to recharge her blink)... The whole process takes 8 seconds and you travel a distance of 33.86 meters... Which makes it 4.2325 m/s on average
So that's the math for it... Basekit Nurse really does not have that good mobility...
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@TheMruczek said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3280819#Comment_3280819
That's why i said somewhat what Wesker has and not exactly as Wesker. Maybe only give her 10% slower recharge on her second blink.
So 3.3 instead of 3 seconds?
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@LiveBritishReaction said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3280819#Comment_3280819
Right, because a killer who moves 5% faster than you is gonna be so good at catching up.
That is exactly what Nurse is with her blink you do realise that right? She moves at slightly above 4.2 m/s basekit when she uses one blink..
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@jinx3d said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3279591#Comment_3279591
and this is why everyone only plays blight/nurse/spirit. Why play a killer like Knight when theyll be rendered useless in about 10 good games?
High MMR does not exist how often do you guys need to hear it? Matchmaking does not work in a way that would make it possible to appropriately match you with similiar mmr players after you've reached a certain amount... And for queue times sake after a certain amount of time you will just get a game...
Seriously if guys only want to win and not play anything different or fun even though it is weaker that's really sad... I could never do more like 5-10 matches on the same killer before getting really tired of him... It is not only about strenght but also about fun...
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@TheMruczek said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/356457/for-people-that-want-nurse-nerfed
A good start would be to make her blinks attack count as special attacks. Let her attack only from second blink, just like Blight's rush attacks.
Recharge to her power should be slightly slower. Somewhat what Wesker has.
Maybe give her Blindness while she charges her power so aura reading perks can finally be buffed without fear of being op on her.
At last rework some add-ons and she is good to go.
You cannot really mess with her blink cooldowns without making it way harder to catch up to survivors... I already did the math for it and at 10 seconds she literally cannot catch up to survivors just holding w... You really overestimate her mobility without any addons....
@LiveBritishReaction said:
Matchbox basekit.
Great you have now removed line of sight breaking as counterplay... Walking now is basically the same speed as one blinking so she will just follow until she can safely one blink you or until she needs to use it because you vaulted a window or pallet... Not a good idea at all.
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@Frizouw said:
I have to admit the one with "no longer exhausted or exposed" could make for some really fun videos on youtube... But besides that I don't like the idea... 99 all chests and try to reach one if needed... Dunno mate... The rest of the survivor perk idea sound alright to me... Not particularly strong but okay.
ANSWER: I don't understand the 99 all chests part... but yeah it's more like a concept and have something new, we don't have much chest related perk, just one I think.
I don't really like the killer perk ideas though... Thicker mist is really annoying for both sides, but I find it more annoying for the killer to spot things in the distance to be honest... The scratch mark thing is also not really a good idea because even if you saw them for 20 seconds... Do you really want to close a gap of like 80 m? You are going to throw the entire game if you follow that scratchmarks XD How about the scratch marks of the survivor closest to the hook become visible through walls for xy seconds after hooked... maybe even make it a scourge hook or something?
The soul part seems more like a power than a perk to be honest...
ANSWER: I think we already have a perk like that about visible through walls for xy seconds after hooked... maybe I am wrong but in the case it does not exist, yeah would be much better and yes the soul part would be more a power than a perk.
Double unhook sounds annoying af... You'll need like 3 people to get an unhook and even then like 2 might go down... Not a fan... Also the camping potential on killers without insta down would increase massively since it would take so long to unhook and meanwhile you can get hits left and right.
ANSWER: Oh yeah it's annoying asf, it could be a nice way to use dead hard too even if it's not everyone who equip it. Imagine you have sleapery meat and it worked but you are still hook... Yeah can be tricky, I admit.
The cloud thing sounds interesting in general... But movementspeed decrease in general and bound to perks in particular are really rough... The point about weskers slow is that there are so many antidotes that you can basically always cleanse, it is only for passive game slowdown but you need to keep track of the infection to not get fully effected... Risk reward: Do you work on the gen longer now or not take the risk and get a spray first to be safe...
Some of the "perk" Ideas for the killer could turn into a power that could be interesting, but I don't like it as perks... A perk that slows down a survivor is a terrible idea.
ANSWER: Maybe instead of influencing movements speed, you just have the cloud over your head with thunderstorms, she just know where you are until the cloud disappear, it's a matter of looping the killer long enough.
- I meant 99% a chest just like you do it to the exit gates so you only have to spend half a second at the chest to get rid of exhaustion or exposed.
- Aura reading yes, but not making scratch marks visible through walls, I don't think that exists yet.
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- But then it sounds just like aura reading with extra steps again :D So I don't know...
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@crogers271 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3278093#Comment_3278093
I'll take a dive at this idea.
1: The Hatch system already exists. A new system would be new programming, animations, etc. So even if your system is an on-par alternative it's not really time worthwhile.
2: Randomness is not inherently bad and adds excitement. By the time we get to this chase end game I've probably already figured out whether I'll win it or not. As a survivor I could be playing the best killer in the world and the hatch still gives me a chance to play for something exciting.
3: It doesn't really fit the theme. The goal of survivors is to escape. Outlasting the killer doesn't really fit.
4: Some killers/survivors would be clearly better at it than others. This exists with hatch already, but this would magnify it. Chase based killers would have a substantial advantage.
5: Keys would have to be totally reworked. I kind of hate the idea of hatch based items so I don't have a problem with that, but it would be one other thing that would need to be taken care of.
6: I'm not sure what would happen under your scenario if the gens are done and one person is left.
- I think we could neglect that because I don't think effort for the devs is an argument for or against any game change at all...
- I don't really consider running around aimlessly hoping to find the hatch or not exciting to be honest, but that's just personal preference I guess... I think it is terrible game design when every person has a decent chance to win against the best player in the game no matter how bad they are... How frustrating might that be xD Loosing to some self caring claudette in the corner that did nothing all game long and then got out because the hatch spawned below her feet...
- It 100% fits the theme... From a lore standpoint these trials exist because the entitiy wants to have something to watch... An exciting match... And from my point of view the most exciting thing to watch are chases... In the end the entity probably even wants survivors to die, since it is mad at the killer otherwise if he perfroms too bad... But then again you can get brutal or maybe even ruthless even when not killing a single survivor... So I would say the overall theme is to please the entity...
- Because of the problem with killers that have better or worse chase I would make the timer dependant on the killer you're going against...
- Keys already have great purpose, it is just that nobody uses them luckily... The aura reading is nuts... With the right perks you can have wallhacks for over a minute... Absolutely ridiculous xD Also the whole hatch opening thing is annoying enough... It got a lot better with the patches but insta opening was just annoying af
- Debatable... I think both options are viable 1. starting the endgame chase 2. being able to open the gate... I would say that opening the gate is the better shot at this... Since the last person standing would not be able to finish the last gen, unless they finish it while the last player besides them is dying on hook, because otherwhise the endgame chase would start... But if for example we have the case that one of the two last survivors gets hooked and dies after the gens are finished then I don't see any reason why the other one should not be able to go for the exit gate...
But as I said, the specifics of my idea are up for debate and we can go into further details to fix issues that we come across...
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@ByeByeQ said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3279941#Comment_3279941
It's not completely luck dependent. While the hatch spawn is random (barring offerings) players can know common hatch spawn locations and there is a strategy to give yourself a better chance to find the hatch as killer. When you know where the survivor is you can try to get ahead of them and zone them into places where you know the hatch is not. If the killer doesn't know where the survivor is they still have the advantage because they are faster and don't have to worry about dying.
Even if you know common hatch spawns that does not make it less luck dependant... You're not guaranteed that it is one of those with a higher probability or something like that...Yeah sure you are a bit faster than survivors.. But in the end it is still mostly luck...
@hiken said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3277385#Comment_3277385
terrible idea, stealthy plays are possible, wake up and sole survivor do exist, the reamaining survivor can still escape with very fast gate opening. so no.
"ignoring stealth mechanics"... the idea is that you see each other no matter what and you obviously cannot open the gate and just leave... That would be ridiculous... You are forced into the chase...
@ByeByeQ said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3280194#Comment_3280194
A player can get lucky and flop a royal flush in poker. That doesn't mean that poker is a 100% luck game.
In poker you can calculate the chances of winning by taking the cards that are in the game into account and the probability of certain combinations that are higher than yours... How does that apply to dbds hatchspawn? If there is no offering for it you have no clue where it could be and there is no higher probability for one over the other hatchspawn... Which makes it completely random... Terrible example man...
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@Steakdabait said:
The issue isn't how powerful it's that she simply doesn't play dbd and that the devs are forced to balance perks around only her.
If they just made it so exposed would not work on her then the Wesker perk (? or what it was that gives you aura reading on close by survivors?) would not be that much of an issue since the whole starstruck build would not be working on her anymore... But they took the easier way... Therefore I would not say they are necessarily forced to nerf perks for her... They could have also changed the exposed for her blinks...
I would not go as far as to say she does not play dbd... When we compare her to (MDR) spirit, where probably nobody would say that she does not play dbd, then you will notice that only 2-3 tiles provide safety against spirit on a normal map... So she does not get bothered by the other 80 % or so... When Spirit breaks those 2-3 god pallets than the map has nothing to hold her anymore... Whereas against nurse the structures stay the same no matter how long the game goes... Nurses chase does not get better over time like other killers after they broke pallets or so...
I actually like that she offers a different kind of counterplay than other killers... Still better than facing the 10th short- medium range anti loop killer that looks different but works basically the same...
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@JustWhimsical said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3279398#Comment_3279398
I definitely wouldn't use them anymore if that were the case. You spend most of the match blinking if you can't effectively see auras, and you miss out on a lot of auras, which means you will have to walk a lot of the time when using perks that are not on command aura reading.
It would honestly make aura reading perks zero fun to use since half the time, and you will miss important information or not get those few seconds that could have helped you find someone.
If they take away aura reading being used effectively, then I will not use aura reading. I would instead use slowdown because that change sounds like it will just force me to wait on blinks which means less time to be catching up to survivors.
It is debatable worse facing a killer with all slowdowns than one who uses aura reading because slowdown tends to turn losing games into winning games as one generator here used to be at 60% now its 0% or a 3 generator setup cannot be touched as the slowdowns are much too strong. If you effectively have zero slowdowns, you cannot delay survivors like you can with slowdowns and the amount you can delay with slowdowns is really big right now.
There is also already counterplay for it, simply by running distortion, but most people don't run that anymore; it's not like running iron will against spirits since these are perks you are going for, so it shouldn't be a problem running a perk that counters those perks if you so feel like it.
It also has the issue that a perk like BBQ which its 40 m range limitation gets nerfed more by this on nurse than nowhere to hide... That would basically make the gen kick build on nurse the better alternative...
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@ByeByeQ said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3277975#Comment_3277975
Yeah, I hear and feel that. I've made a few suggestion threads with fully fleshed out ideas that I think are amazing only for those threads to get no responses and be on the 2nd page in an hour. Meanwhile someone posts a hot take and the thread just buzzes. I'm on my last strike and when the hammer does come down I am not going to miss this place.
When I play killer I almost never slug for the 4k and and fine getting the 3k in those spots. But it does happen often enough where I find the hatch first and secure the 4k. To me it doesn't feel like an unfair mechanic and I actually like the quick end to the match when the survivor finds that hatch and immediately jumps in. It doesn't bother me.
As survivor I recently had a game on Garden of Pain where I outlasted my team and ran the killer all over the map staying ahead of him searching for the hatch until I lead him into the center of the map in front of the house and he heard it first and closed it. It was a fun time, even though the ending sucked. Luck is a huge factor in DbD and I happened to get unlucky against a killer that couldn't catch me. For him I am sure he felt satisfied. "Finally! Dir Rebecca!"
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3278082#Comment_3278082
I don't really like your idea. It takes the surprise of finding the hatch out of the endgame. I don't think an endgame timer on the final chase would be a good mechanic and I think it would be decidedly survivor-sided. Unless the killer has managed to destroy every pallet on the map the survivor can easily make that last chase last long be holding W and predropping everything.
I think it'd be much better if DbD introduced a full on 1v1 mode, which would play out similar.
I don't think it should be luck dependant to get out or not ... As for it being survivor sided that fully depends on how ressourcefull the team was and usually the map should be rather dry when 3 survivors already died... But I fully agree that predropping could be problematic... But then again in the end it would not necessarily be survivor sided since I stated it would be an option where the survivor can get bonus bloodpoints and not necessarily escape... And if the survvior knows that he may not have enough pallets if he just pre drops everything he is needed to be more ressourcefull... In the end I think it is still a better system then who gets lucky today...
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@GRIG0 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/356464/trapper-buff-qol-idea
I like the changes, but I'd be happy even if only the first one was implemented, or whatever other idea that addresses the annoyance of traps spawning randomly and waste your time picking them.
Id also like if traps had some risk disarming them. And somehow make them harder to spot in certain maps such as Eyrie.
Maybe some sort of increasingly difficult skillcheck then? Where the difficulty resets after some time?
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@danielmaster87 said:
Have all the traps start on hand.
The issue about that is that he can basically fully trap a location to the extend where the survivor can't get out... There is a clip of Otz doing that on Lerys stating that this is why he should not have all of them on hand from the start...
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@Grigerbest said:
I think Trapper need a bazooka in order to fit in the current meta.
Trapper now places claymore mines... Walking into one instantly kills the survivor... We also decided to nerf pig..
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
- Chain blinks become special attacks. I think it’s ok for the first blink to remain basic though. Weakens Exposed (and Starstruck in particular) but doesn’t completely eliminate perk variety. They shouldn’t nerf Starstruck just to address Nurse; Exposed as a whole is too good on her and Starstruck isn’t overpowered on any other killer.
- Change almost all of her addons. Her best addons are too strong but almost everything else is just bad. Her addons shouldn’t be strong, but she doesn’t need like 3 different addons that are debuffs. Recharge is too strong, range and 3-blink shouldn’t exist at all. I would be okay with even reducing the base recharge slightly (0.15-0.2 seconds per blink) provided that yellow recharge is removed and green recharge is nerfed, because admittedly it does feel quite slow without recharge addons, but you shouldn’t be able to recharge 2 blinks in 4 seconds. It doesn’t punish mistakes enough.
- This might be an unpopular opinion, but I don’t think she should be able to see auras of survivors while blinking. The two most important counters to Nurse are breaking LOS and keeping distance from her as much as possible. Aura reading perks heavily reduce LOS counterplay and the survivor typically can’t predict that until it’s too late, unless they have something that gives it away (eg. Object or Distortion). It’s okay before she uses her power, but it should stop when she’s ready to go for a blink.
- Stuns reset blink charges (and they don’t start recharging until the stun ends). Pallet stuns are rare against Nurse and aren’t rewarding enough, and it would make DS give the survivor more of a fighting chance against her. Right now DS is pretty useless against a good Nurse.
I think even the recharge addons are fine... When we look at the mobility they grant it is really not as much as you would think... Currently when one blinking she moves at 4.2325 m/s and with both recharge addons she moves at 4.287 m/s ... It is really not that much to be honest xD So because of that I think recharge is fine...
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@ACleverName4Me said:
I like Otz idea where she can only get her power to blink for a certain amount of time after making survivors injured for a certain amount of time. That of course would mean that her base movement speed will probably be normal like trapper and then when she has her power she is her normal slow speed. Think of Oni when it comes to the idea. of course her addons need to be looked at for this change also.
In his most recent video I think he changed his opinion to nerf addons and make exposed not work on her...
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@AMOGUS said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3279573#Comment_3279573
It can work, you just need to loop properly. Double back, spin around, strafe, etc.
This community (don't "both sides" or "Killer main" me) frequently gets upset when they can't run around a pallet or shift+w, and it continues to show.
Hens did a tutorial on what to do against nurse:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMlBH9t6ARwSo maybe there is something in there that helps people.
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@Reinami said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3279825#Comment_3279825
Because i started by saying: "here is my opinion, and you can't say X because here is the refutation of that" then you immediate say: "But X" without refuting anything i said. Then you ignore my previous point because you are clearly showing your survivor bias. You think that survivors should be stronger, that is fine, but that is clearly what you think, because you can hold only 1 of 2 possible views:
- This game should be balanced around the highest level of play, which means survivors as a whole need massive nerfs, or killers need massive buffs, and nurse needs nerfs.
- This game should be balanced around the largest group (the average) of players, which means that survivors are fine, and nurse needs buffs.
You cannot mix the 2, they are mutually exclusive. If you want to mix the 2, then you are either biased for killers or survivors, and you are clearly biased toward survivors. Since you aren't willing to address that, you are discussing this from a disingenuous point of view. Thus there is no point in continuing.
First of all I play both sides equally but proably played more killer than survivor over all... I think that the game should be balanced for the largest group and it is not biased not want a buff for nurse... Why even? Nurses entire concept is different from every other killer in the game... With every other killer you can just play them as a basic m1 killer and learn their power step by step without being completely reliant on the power to get hits in the first place... This does not apply to nurse however and since her power is quite hard to controll when you begin to play her there will be a lot of players that perform rather bad with her until they get a clue of what to do... Many people probably don't even go through until they know what to do and get frustrated before... That's how I explain myself that nurse has the lowest killrate... Average Nurses can be looped and are fairly in the middle with 2-3 ks... God nurses will basically stomp every game and beginner nurses will barely get 1k unless they use noed or so... If we now take into account the different numbers of players in this category it probably will ad up to the numbers we got....
Having a sense of what is balanced and what is not does not necessarily imply a bias towards one side... I play both sides and want both of them to be fun to play as and go against... What is in for me otherwise? I can be on both sides of this thing so why would I want it unbalanced?
As for an example of what balance might impact depending on skill level... When we look at maps and pallets... Good survivors are rather efficient with pallets and won't need as many to loop the killer for some time as worse players... But if we balance around the top and maps only have as many pallets as really good survivors need we will have maps like shelter woods with like 7 pallets if you're lucky... (Yes it depends on the killer you go against if you can be efficient with pallets or not...) When we balance around bad players we need cowshed or the game amount of pallets since they basically camped every pallet and waited there for you to come and kick it... At least when I started playing this game a few years back it was like that... Because both options are rough on many players we need to go somewhere in the middle...
I don't really see why you should not be able to mix the options? The issue is that even when we look at the top 5% mmr they still go against the rather average players... top 5% does not get matched with top 5% so this messes up all the data... Especially the over all killrates... If we had matchmaking that matches people equally to skill there might be some truth in that (would need to properly think about this) but as it is now I don't think we can just take kill rates as an indicator for how good a killer is....
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@GrimReaperJr1232 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3279802#Comment_3279802
Yes and no.
Okay, Lunge speed was formerly calculated as base speed x 1.5. This resulted in Nurse and 4.4 killers getting a shorter lunge.
This was adjusted. When you do a default lunge, every killer becomes 4.6 for the duration of their lunge so they all have the same range. If you're faster than 4.6, then that value is multiplied by 1.5. That's why Wraith has an extended lunge; he's temporarily moving at 6.9 after uncloaking, so it's 6.9 x 1.5 for 10.35m/s.
Nurse's normal lunge follows this rule as well. Her blink attacks, however, do not. They have the same range/speed now as they did in 2016.
Myers is a weird case. A lunge works in 3 phases, opening, speed burst, and closing. The duration of these phases are 0.1, 0.3, and 0.1 seconds respectively. In T1, the speed burst portion is removed entirely, so you only get the opening/closing phases (the same as tapping M1). T3 extends the speed burst to 0.4 seconds.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3279805#Comment_3279805
Personally, I don't care for Exposed. I care for Starstruck specifically.
My idea that's gained some traction? Make her TR small, say, 16m, but give her a 40m Lullaby. You can even make the lullaby directional, similar to Sadako/Trickster.
Yeah but the issue is that every perk that cuts down her chase time gives her too much of an advantage... She already can get hits really fast but cutting it down by 50% with exposed is just too much... I agree that starstruck is the most commonly used one but devour hope or haunted grounds give her something similiar...
The issue is even if we make the terror radius smaller, with agitation she is back at 28 m and distressing makes this around 35 m... So she might use another perk slot for that but get basically a very similiar result... But I like the concept... I didn't think of that one before :D But for simplicity reasons I would prefer exposed just not to work on her blink attacks...
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Why would you even engage in a conversation when you just ignore basically everything the other person writes dude? Save your time and talk to a mirror if you don't want a disagreeing statement...
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@Reinami said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3279789#Comment_3279789
I knew it, you immediate jump to the "its rare" every single time. I'm not gonna engage in a conversation with you if you are going to be so disingenuous. But i'll leave you with this.
If they balance around the "average" player. Where are my nurse buffs then?
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/YD3VSFGUO05L/image.png
You don't get to play it both ways. Nurse is BY FAR the worst killer in the game, so based on this they need to buff:
- Nurse
- Trickster
- Billy
- Demo
- Doctor
- Trapper
And nerf:
- Cenobite
- Onroyo
- Wesker
- Freddy
- Pig
- Plague
- Dredge
I'll be waiting for more pig nerfs then.
And if your arugment is bUt NuRsE hAs A 50% KiLl RaTe!!!!
Then i'll be waiting for them to nerf literally every killer.
Can you not ignore the point where I point out that it is not about it being rare alone but the inability to balance it for everyone at the same time? Jesus dude...
And also your set of Data does not really differ that much from the highest 5% mmr as much as you might think/might want people to think... Because the matchmaking goes for queue time over balance in matches a very large amount of people even though they are fairly different in skill or mmr can get matched together... What this basically means is your average player will go against Alfs Nurse or LilithOmens blight as survivor but you could also get matched as a killer vs Hens333 or Ayrun when they play survivor... The matchmaking is so all over the place that we cannot assume much from it...
Also you wrote "Onryo" wrong dude...
Not getting it both ways is exactly the issue I pointed out, but for some reason you either didn't even read my explanation or you just ignored it because it does not fit your narrative...
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For the 3rd reason I would not want to rob nurse of using perks that rely on basic attacks in general but only exposed because I think they are the major issue... Otherwise you would kind of limit her in the perks she can use more than necessarily needed ^^
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@GrimReaperJr1232 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3279755#Comment_3279755
It's one of the reasons, yes, but not the only reason.
First off, there are three types of attacks: Basic, Sub-Basic, and Special. Sub-Basic attacks are Basic attacks with additional/modified properties, while Special Attacks are completely unique and tailored made for the individual killer. Perks only acknowledge Basic and Special attacks.
Nurse's attack is a sub-basic attack. Uniquely, she also predates the actual perk distinction of basic/special attacks for perks, so she's an example of an attack being retroactively categorized. Thought that was worth mentioning.
Now, what makes her attack unique? Almost nothing. The attack itself almost completely emulates a standard basic attack except in two areas I can find. 1. during the calculation formula, she's 3.85 instead of 4.6. 2. Her modifier is 1.6 instead of 1.5. This means, her lunge speed is calculated as 3.85 x 1.6, for a lunge speed of 6.16m/s. So her unique property is her lunge is shorter and slower. Otherwise, completely normal attack. That's reason 1: Very little difference between it and a basic attack.
Reason 2: If you say, "any difference means it's not basic" then we'd need to say Myers' T3 lunge is special because his lunge is longer. A better example is Slinger who inflicts Deep Wound as well. This opens up the can of worms of "what is/isn't a basic attack?" Sub-Basic attacks are on the line and it gets hard to categorize them. Legion's Frenzy and Pig's ambush, for example, are sub-basic attacks and were once Basic Attacks because of it. But as you can see with Nurse/Slinger, not all Sub-Basic attacks are special.
Reason 3: What you mentioned. She's slow. She physically cannot chase normally. You don't see Basic attack perks on Huntress, true, but she has the choice. Nurse does not. She is the only killer that is entirely reliant on their power to land hits.
I'll do you one better and now I'll source it! This is from McLean, who was one of the dev's behind Nurse's creation on the subject when I asked him.
https://clips.twitch.tv/BreakableCharmingSmoothieMVGame-JcPXoLCSXDvC8Xtu
Thanks buddy, that's interesting... I thought the lunge range and speed was basically the same for every killer? (except myers in t1 or t3?)
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@Reinami said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3279696#Comment_3279696
Name me any killer that isn't nurse or spirit (and MAYBE blight) that can compete against this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtENJZ_z0zw&t=1s
And if you say: "But those are super rare, not every team is like that" you can basically leave the conversation now, because that is not an excuse for game balance to be like this. Just because something is rare, doesn't mean it is balanced.
We could create a hypothetical scenario that a killer offering exists that:
- Permanently gives the killer 300% movement speed
- Permanently reveals the aura of all survivors
- Permanently exposes all survivors.
- Allows all survivors to immediately be mori'd
And this offering appears with a 0.1% chance in the bloodweb, making it so you'd see this offering in 1 out of every 1000 games. This offering would not be fair or balanced just because its "rare"
This example is just so terrible... You have variety of players of different skill in this game... It is not comparable to such a trash offering dude... If you buff something with the intention of making it more viable against average players it might be oppressive vs good or bad players... The question is what group are you balancing for? They should balance for the biggest group of players and those are players of average skill... And when considering that basically any killer is viable because those players are just not that good. On the other hand your offering is just terrible design regardless of skill and not impacted by it whatsoever... So maybe go find a different hypothetical example of bad balanced things...
You have god nurses, Blights and Spirits on the one side and comp survivor squads on the other side... Both are equally rare and you will really not see them often... But what are you gonna do about that? There is no way to balance it for everyone... A comp nurse can loose against a comp 4 mansquad and most killers just have it harder... To bring back the comp tierlist... We can assume that A Tier killers could also make it, but have it harder and everything below is probably rather unreasonable... It is just not possible to make every killer equally viable on every skill level... And honestly I don't even want that... Imagine a killer as easy to play/master as legion being able to compete against the best survivor players in the world with a reasonable chance to win... You would not even need to be close as good as those guys to master legion, how would that be fair?
"And if you say: "But those are super rare, not every team is like that" you can basically leave the conversation now, because that is not an excuse for game balance to be like this. Just because something is rare, doesn't mean it is balanced."
Once again sure, but you cannot have it all... You cannot have an equally balanced game at all levels. And therefore I'd rather have it balanced for the majority of players.
"Name me any killer that isn't nurse or spirit (and MAYBE blight) that can compete against this:"
Artist, Twins, Plague and Pyramid Head are played in comp so I guess them as well? I don't really understand what you mean dude xD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YfXTWsgkxIThe killer players are comp players and two of the survivors from your video above are also competing in this as survivers: Hens333 and Laser the other two are also really good survivor players. Otzdarva also says at the beginning of the video that those two killers are "very common in tournaments these days"... So I guess that answers your question fairly well...
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@Veinslay said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3279696#Comment_3279696
Comp and "high MMR" aren't the same thing. Comp you can't stack perks and items like crazy. I'm routinely matched in lobbies with all green/purple medkits, 4 dead hards, 1 CoH, a gen rushing build, etc etc. You can't compete with that #########
And in comp some addons are also not allowed like MDR for example... I'm not sure on that one but I once heard range addons on nurse are also not allowed... But the point is in comp you are guaranteed to go against reeeeally good survivors while in normal matchmaking you are mostly going against average players.
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Hm... yeah I mean why not then...
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@GrimReaperJr1232 said:
"- Make Blink attacks Special like it used to be." Uh... what? They were never Special. Due to a bug, Old MoM considered them to be special, but that was a bug. If you want to know WHY they're basic, I'll gladly explain because I've asked the devs and was given detailed explanation as to why.
"After being stunned you lose all blink charges." I don't think this is as impactful as people think. Okay, you DS'd the Nurse. AWESOME! It's still 3 seconds. Oh, but she's slower? She's 0.15m/s slower. Unless you're on Lery's or something that can break LoS immediately, she's going to get a blink back, and you'll die. She won't even need to wait for a second one.
"Make Plaid Flannel addon effect visible for survivors." I don't like this. If she herself cannot see it, why should survivors? But let's ignore that. The entire counterplay (besides breaking LoS) to Nurse relies on predicting if she'll commit to a far blink or cut it short. I don't like the idea of physically seeing it, just like you wouldn't see the arc of a Huntress hatchet.
" While charging blink nurse suffers from slowed camera movement like piramid head or deathslinger." That sounds awful to play. It wouldn't even be much of a nerf. It'd just feel terrible.
"While being burned by a flashlight u slowly lose charges no matter if you are charging blink or not." The counterplay to killers should not be dependent on an item. Likewise, an item shouldn't harm a killer that severely.
Seems interesting, why are they basic attacks? Because Nurse basically cannot hit people when chasing normally?
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@roundpitt said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3279656#Comment_3279656
At least with the long game you will pip and get bloodpoints and experience
Why would I ever care about bloodpoints? ^^ I have everything I need on every killer and survivor... It is almost bothersome to have to spend bp... The same goes for pips Why would I care? All I get out of pipping is more bp at the end of the month? xD As for the experience yeah sure that's something but mostly the Nurse with 4 slowdown perks will give up on chase if it doesn't go their way fast ... So not even chases are guaranteed...
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I mean ok, but I've never had an issue with not knowing if it would stun the killer or not XD
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@killer998 said:
He's honestly so bad it's ridiculous. He has to be one of the most survivor friendly killers they've ever released. I'm not saying that in a "Devs are survivor sided" way, I'm talking about his actual design itself can't contest the top level survivors. Information is power in DBD and he gains f all information but gives tons.
His power is not only awful, it's painful. You can't see the survivors but they can see you making the path, they can hear you making a path. The guards take too long to activate. since they can also hear and see you making a path on top of their activation the survivors are gone by the time you're done setting it up holding forward. They're slow af, they're dumb af. They get stuck all the time. They can see the guards auras as they're patrolling and the Path the guards are patrolling.
It's harder to do but they can also take the banner and get a speed boost and endurance.
The power is also clunky af. There's so many points where you're not allowed to use it. Critical moments like windows or pallets. He has to step back. It takes a hot second to start channeling it and it feels like the orbs a drop-down than a spawn in with the camera angle. You can get stuck on things when you're trying make a path and on controller at least let me tell you, it can be f'ing hard to get out of being stuck in a wall or object. It's like spirit phase, but he's drunk and has all the nerfs spirit mains have nightmares about at the same time.
He gets fat shamed at loops at times or in chase he can't fit through things. He's loud af as he stomps around.
He feels rushed for the Christmas sales and he's just obscenely weak overall. At the higher levels of play where swfs rule and survivors sweat non stop he literally gets nothing but hardcore stomped outside of camping. He's a good camper but that's it and that only goes to show how yet again, bad he is.
The only place he can be decent is at the lower ranks of play where most of the player base is. That can be the only place he can thrive. Where no one has a clue what's happening and are learning the game.
He CANNOT contest the top level of play in his current state. You might get the one game here or there if you're really lucky or the survs F up big time. But he genuinely can't compete with them.
First of all there is no high mmr, since above the soft cap everybody is considered to be at that, then again when you have a longer queue the range of mmr that gets matched with you increases and after x amount of time you will get a game regardless of how balanced it is to prevent too long queue times...
@Veinslay said:
The devs are done designing killers to do good at high level lol. They're gutting Nurse and Blight next patch and bringing in basekit UB next patch, watch
Wesker was very well designed strong killer most people consider to be A tier... Hens did a showcase with him and some of his comp friends and the Wesker did decent , sure not as strong as Nurse, Spirit or Blight but still really good.
@Veinslay said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3278865#Comment_3278865
Survivors only want to play against killers they can loop for five gens
Not really dude, I like going against Nurse, Blight, Huntress, Wesker for example... But I do not think I should be able to loop a killer for that long unless he is far worse than me...
@MisterMister said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/356314/you-literally-cant-play-knight-at-high-mmr
It’s truly amazing how many people are at top MMR
Especially since high mmr doesn't even exist in the way people think it does xD
@Reinami said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/356314/you-literally-cant-play-knight-at-high-mmr
You literally can't play:
- Trapper
- Wraith
- Hillbilly
- myers
- Doctor
- Huntress
- Bubba
- Freddy
- Pig
- Clown
- Legion
- Plague
- Ghostface
- Demogorgon
- Oni
- Deathslinger
- Pyramid Head
- Trickster
- Nemesis
- Cenobite
- Artist
- Onroyo
- Dredge
- Wesker
- knight
at high MMR.
Fix that for you.
First once again there is no high MMR... But then so we actually have something we can work with ... The following picture is a comp tierlist from Knightlight... you can get it from his twitch with !tierlist at https://www.twitch.tv/knightlight He is a comp player currently playing for Team Eternal, the best comp team at the moment:
According to that I guess we could say that at least A tier is still somewhat viable... And that is comp... Which is completely different from what you imagine high mmr is... Because of that source I would think that this is quite accurate for a comp setting... So Wesker is the 7th best killer in the game... But yeah sure, BHVR does not make killers that are good in "HiGh MmR" anymore...
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@Terion said:
We love to play the game, however you dont let us.
PS players deal with cursor issiues so they cant move, connection flaws all over the place and heeps of people abusing the fact dc penalties got reduced/removed.
Give us something at least like.. Are you working on it? do you plan to get back the old penalties once this is fixed? Are you alredy in christmas vacation or whats happening?
i would love to have finally word from officials, just a statement. Please dont tell me i have to make a twitter account just to get an answer, this is your main page, why do we get left in the dark? what is the issiue? i dont get it.
All i see rn is i put over a hunderd euros worth into this game and now im not being able to play it properly since 2 weeks straight because of these issiues. Thats not some minor inconvieniece these are pressing errors that need to get adressed. Im starting to get tired of this alredy, my will to play is like 0 rn the only thing that makes me hang around the forum is the money ive put in.
i want an answer, i want to know IF you are working on it at all. If i still could refund the game you can be sure i wouldve done it. Yeah sure i might be 1 person but im a paying customer still, i planned to play this game for a little longer, i bought the ultimate edition, various cosmetics and all DLCs except leatherface. But i guess all of it was wasted and i need to find some other game, where the developers know who does pay them.
As for connection flaws... I played a bot game yesterday and lost the connection to the host.. That was hillarious xD
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@Phasmamain said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3279463#Comment_3279463
The problem is I don’t see a way to make her current “phase through all objects to get a hit” power work. Only real way would be to lock it behind a charge up like plague or Oni.
Her unique counterplay is entirely map dependent as well. Get shelter woods or blood lodge and you’re #########
Nurse’s power is the only one that actually breaks fundamental game elements. Even at that she requires less skill than killers like blight to reach the skill ceiling
But on RPD and Lerys she is kinda ######### so... I mean yeah there are some maps where there is not much you can do about her... But then again when you get a Ghostface or a Myers in Lerys there is also not much you can do in that case... If you get no indication that you're about to get attacked you will just get hit... I would love to have some higher tiles on those map to be able to properly play against her...
I would not even go as far to say it breaks game elements... Some things work against some killers and not against others, Pyramid Head can hit you through walls, Legion is guaranteed to get at least on hit on you unless for some reason he looses the legion chicken game that badly... But it is kind of a change that for example edge map is really good against her and worthless against anybody else... So I think to some degree yes she ignores game mechanics, but then again she gives you something else to work with... At least most maps have high tiles you can work with... I think her power is far less annoying than plagues to be honest, but that might be personal preference... Spirits requires even less to perform well and is not map dependant at all, meanwhile poor billy the hardest killer in the game is like below average xD
@roundpitt said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3279391#Comment_3279391
I'd rather 4 slowdown perks as apposed to 4 aura reading perks and the game is over in 120 seconds with no chance of winning. 😁
For me it is the opposite... I'd rather have the game be over sooner instead of a 20 minute slugfest... That's why I hate going against legion... Those games just take forever and you're not doing much besides doing gens and mending...
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ok maybe "nurses spirit" was bad phrasing xD So let's say her basics.
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@Gandor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3279507#Comment_3279507
you will not be forced to fully change direction, but even in 20s you will need to go around rocks or loops or something. But that's beside the point. I think we are in agreement. That big nerf would be too much if there was not some kind of compensation and adjusting range/recharge+special attack could be enough (without @barsw 's proposition)
Yeah I guess. I would like to keep nurses spirit and just remove the annoying parts,because I genuinly like her current counterplay that is so much different from that of other killers. And I believe that's mostly exposed perks or range addons.
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@Gandor said:
The thing is, that usually people can't run straight. Even largest maps in the game will not allow you to just move forward for more then say 20s (and this is extreme case). This makes nurse effectively quicker then those 4.2 or 4.05 . The thing is, that it's hard to measure, but she in fact can be one of the quickest killers by effective distance traveled outside of teleports (when blinking between floors). But sure enough - making her CD's that much longer would require her to have a little bit higher base speed. It would have been way too much.
Agreed to some part but with that long of a cooldown you can basically just run around shack once on coaltower and around main building on the other side and just keep doing that forever, Nurse will never catch you... the 4.05 only works if you start the blink immediatly after the cooldown ends... With some floating in between you will probably loose distance...
If we take Ormond for example... Nurse will usually blink to the spot where she last saw you so the corner of the main building for example... If you have a large enough line of sight blocker where you have different options on where to run next than you can force the nurse to either guess and loose a ton of distance or play it safe and not fully gain advantage of your power to blink through things...
Also the 20 seconds applys on smaller maps but when we go to the bigger ones we get more like 30-40 seconds... Mothers Dwelling is probably around 40 seconds of just running straight. And most maps have at least a long side you can run along. Even coal tower has that, and it is one of the smallest maps in the game.