Archol123
Archol123
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But your not really looking on the ground for scratches in the distance, and on the few occassions I played on the map I generally got quite some of those so... Yeah on the ground it sucks, but on Walls and other structures it works somewhat fine... I did think a fire or what it was in the distance was scratchmarks, so it is still not perfect... but at least something.
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I have to admit the one with "no longer exhausted or exposed" could make for some really fun videos on youtube... But besides that I don't like the idea... 99 all chests and try to reach one if needed... Dunno mate... The rest of the survivor perk idea sound alright to me... Not particularly strong but okay.
I don't really like the killer perk ideas though... Thicker mist is really annoying for both sides, but I find it more annoying for the killer to spot things in the distance to be honest... The scratch mark thing is also not really a good idea because even if you saw them for 20 seconds... Do you really want to close a gap of like 80 m? You are going to throw the entire game if you follow that scratchmarks XD How about the scratch marks of the survivor closest to the hook become visible through walls for xy seconds after hooked... maybe even make it a scourge hook or something?
The soul part seems more like a power than a perk to be honest...
Double unhook sounds annoying af... You'll need like 3 people to get an unhook and even then like 2 might go down... Not a fan... Also the camping potential on killers without insta down would increase massively since it would take so long to unhook and meanwhile you can get hits left and right.
The cloud thing sounds interesting in general... But movementspeed decrease in general and bound to perks in particular are really rough... The point about weskers slow is that there are so many antidotes that you can basically always cleanse, it is only for passive game slowdown but you need to keep track of the infection to not get fully effected... Risk reward: Do you work on the gen longer now or not take the risk and get a spray first to be safe...
Some of the "perk" Ideas for the killer could turn into a power that could be interesting, but I don't like it as perks... A perk that slows down a survivor is a terrible idea.
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@pizzavessel15 said:
bhvr you need to stop playing safe with killers. the new knight is literally the newest example of yall doing it. i cannot tell you how many fog whispers/content creators iv seen saying the same thing. HE GIVES SURVIVORS TOO MUCH INFORMATION. if yall want the knight to become even remotely viable or enjoyable then this are the changes that has been ALREADY suggested by a ton.
remove his green orb
remove the guards path trail for survivors
make him go through an animation so he cant just instantly put down his power
make it so the guards can chase slightly longer or are slightly faster.
this is optional but instead of the guards running through pallets just make them break it
make it so guards spawn faster or patrol longer
make it so you can recall them by pressing a button, not going out of your way to hit them
The movementspeed or chase time as well as patrol time would be needed to increase massively... As the guards are they barely gain any distance on a survivor and unless they are within like 5 m of the guard when it starts the hunt even the assassin cannot catch up, the other ones are even more useless when it comes to that... The intended playstyle just does not work as he currently is...
What I would also like to see is the ability to start the guard path not where your killer is currently... So you can basically make the guard patrol a further away area... And also make the differences between the guards bigger... Maybe even let the player switch them as he wishes so they can use the guards to their strenght and so on...
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@barsw said:
Prove thyself must be nerfed hard .Too many people using and gen rush even without it is fast .
But using prove thyself is still less efficient than just spreading and doing gens solo? You should basically only stack up on a gen when it is the last one... I mean sure, change the numbers if you think it is needed... But in general stacking up is a bad play so everything that encourages that is fine by me...
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@Gamedozer7 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3276327#Comment_3276327
If played right you could lose enough Los to lose chase but it's a little tricky and range depending how the doors spawn.
The more I play it the more the pallet bug seems to be the main problem but tracking is still the worst imo.
Yeah, but they already said that the pallet bug is not intended... So that's gonna get fixed I guess... And the tracking is still better than in any indoor map xD At least you can sometimes see scratchmarks in the distance... And since most things are waiste high you can mostly see survivors from a distance, just like on blood lodge...
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The point is not about him being weak, but boring to go against, as he creates the same loose loose situation that Artist creates where you either can reach a connected tile or you get hit/downed... And that's just bad gameplay design... But yeah sure he is also weaker than Artist and more in the middle when it comes to strenght.
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@Gamedozer7 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3276268#Comment_3276268
I've had a few with pallets and windows but that could be the pallet bug. Some have really strong widows that are almost infinites because of the weird door placement.
I mean it is not an infinite if it gets entity blocked after 3 vaults... But I've not come across something that bad yet.
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I thought the shack like building on the newest map only have a pallet and not also a window in the way shack has it?
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105% would be still too slow.. You need to think about it in m or cm... Because 105% = 4.2m/s so they gain 20 cm per second on the survivor... The guards beside carnifex have 12 seconds of hunt duration carnifex has 24... The problem now is that currently they gain the following distance during an entire hunt:
Carnifex: 10cm/s * 24 seconds=2.4m
Assassin: 40cm/s * 12 seconds =4.8m
Jailer: 10cm/s * 12 seconds = 1.2m
That is laughable... Unless they are really close to you already they will never catch you... Even by doubling the movementspeed gain and turning jailer and carnifex 4.2m/s they will still barely gain distance...
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@Gamedozer7 said:
So I've played quite a few games on the new map and I can say it's definitely the worst designed map they have ever made. The gens consistently spawn on the outside of the map making it impossible to patrol gens and even with high mobility killers the spread is so huge its hard to patrol them. Blood is impossible to see and scratchmarks still just vanish. And then there is the pallet bug I I'm finding multiple loops with 3-5 pallets in 10 feet of each other this map is just a cluster f of bad map design and should be the gold standard for how not to design maps for dbd.
Have you heard of garden of joy? Where there are red roots on the floor that look like scratchmarks and a main building with ridiculous almost infinite windows happens to be?
I mean yeah, not being able to see scratch marks is really annoying, but at least they tuned the red down by a bit and the pallet thing is only a bug... Whereas maps like The Game or Cowshed have them all the time... I would even go as far to say this is one of the best maps they made lately XD
If we think about the latest maps we have RPD (which is terrible from a gameplay perspective), Eyrie of Crows (which spawns so many safe pallets and has great main building to loop around) and Garden of Joy which has many strong loops and one of the strongest main buildings in the entire map... I think out of those the new map is the least annoying to play on... It does not have oppresively good main building, loops are mostly lower heightwise so killers can use their power to some degree... As far as I know the hitboxes of the environment are not as bad as garden of joy with its stupid branches and bushes or Eyrie with branches...
Don't get me wrong the colour and the bugged pallet spawns are really annoying... But it still is one of the better maps they made recently... Which says a lot xD
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@Feather said:
liek u said teamm8s can take guards on themselves. Chased survivour can still loop that tile then. when i was playing him some survivours done that and its a matter of time when someone will be able to do that more frequently. i needed to drop unhealthy guy and start chase with the healthy one with guard? sometimes u need to get fast down and others can do the same like guarded surv did. its not as useless as u think
Patrolling feels bad right now but i used jailer or others to secure 1 way from which survivours can come while defending other side by myself. I used this tactic on Badham and RPD (i still need more practice to do that more effectively)
But what when nobody takes the guard? What is the appropriate play for the survivor then? Generally speaking you should have some sort of chase interaction that does not rely on your teammates taking aggro... Because otherwise there is just no proper chase interaction if it is just either someone helps you or you get hit basically all the time.
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@Gandor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3275016#Comment_3275016
There's just nurse and blight power wise. There will be people that will comlain about next killers, but not overall killers. It will be artist gameplay is boring to play as/against. Nerf MDR on spirit. Remove tombstones on meyers. Wesker has too easy tunneling off hook. Etc. But all other killers are overall fine power wise (if we are talking only from too OP spectrum that is - we have quite a few killers that needs buffs). It's just that some addons would be problematic.
And then there's also the question of camping and tunneling. But that is maybe off topic as it goes beyond specific killers (maybe disregarding bubba)
Even with Nurse and Blight it's basically only the addons that are really strong, their basekit is fine overall... Most people just don't know the actual numbers behind nurses mobility and assume she is way faster than she actually is without addons... And for Blight I didn't think people complain a lot about Blights basekit? But about his really strong addons...
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I would agree to the counter part, if the killer was somewhat complex... But he is not... Many people came to the same conclusion, that the most reasonable/effective way to play him is to just drop a guard at loop and then sandwich the survivor... If you can reach another tile (since you obviously cannot loop the current one) then you can delay the hit, otherwise you just get hit... And it goes like that on every single tile... How can you call this kind of gameplay good? At least against hag a well coordinated team can constantly harass her and remove her traps... What can you do about this guy? I mean yeah another survivor can take aggro of the guard so the other one does not get hit... But then again this guy who now has the guard on him will either reach a tile or get hit by the guard or the killer... It just does not enable interactive gameplay... And I cannot imagine how there could be with his general design... Besides the assassin they are too slow to ever catch up, their patrol time is ridiculously low and so on... What else can you do but play him in the artist way?
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Also you must run make your choice and devour hope... Someone mentioned both take the m away from hook from your spirits... You can now facecamp as well as bubba or Twins... And devour the soap...
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Thanks for the in depth guide, helped me very well in inproving this complex and mechanically challenging killer +rep
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@bleblablu said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3272167#Comment_3272167
Yeah sorry about there being so many. This was mostly just for fun and to keep a list of everything I have thought up so far. In addition, you have given some really great feedback!
This is not happening:
- I originally made it affect all skill checks because I wanted it to be more unique, but based on your observations it would be too imbalanced and difficult to implement. For gen rush builds, While experienced players can hit great skill checks reliably without this perk, it would make it far too easy to hit skill checks without any downsides. so a possible change:
- Increases great skill check zones while injured, but always increases good skill check zones.
- This would still make it helpful for newer players, but add some risk in order to make great skill checks easier
Cruel Limits:
- My thought process behind this perk is to both encourage survivors to not loop around completed generators and to encourage killers to chase around completed generators. From my experience, during late game killers will want to stay in an area around unfinished generators while survivors will want to run to areas with completed generators, which makes sense. Killers will be able to force survivors off of gens while chasing someone during the process, and survivors will be able to run killers around while their teammates safely finish those generators. However, this kind of creates a mini stalemate where neither side wants to leave a zone which benefits them more. However upon rethinking it, there is way too much rng in where generators are located and what windows are nearby, so a potential rework:
- Increase blocking duration to 40/50/60 seconds
- I'm not sure if it will be any better, but in the end I'm not a game designer lol
NOED:
- I think I didn't make it clear enough how I wanted to change it. The perk doesn't immediately reveal its aura at a 24 meter range, rather it will grow in size from 4 meters to 24 meters for 30 seconds like it does right now. The only difference is that it will immediately begin growing once the last generator is completed and not when a survivor is downed. However, if my intention was clear, then this is a change I will stand my ground on. Seeing the aura revealed after a survivor goes down to it is like railroad lights going off after the train has passed.
Spies in the shadows:
- I wanted this perk to give you value outside of the range you would usually get value from crows. The cooldown ensures that this perk doesn't become a better BBQ. The change I made now makes it more of a random information perk. Survivors startle crows much more often than you think, but I will agree that the cooldown is a bit too lengthy.:
- Reduce cooldown to 40/35/30 seconds
- hopefully this will help make it stronger.
Breakout:
- I feel like this is more of a personal bias if anything. I have rarely seen sabo squads since they changed toolboxes during deathslinger's release, and when I do they usually only manage to complete 1 or 2 generators. Breakout by itself is very underwhelming, and like you said most people will run other perks instead like no mither, soul guard, tenacity, flip flop.
Corrective action:
- this is a situation of doomed if you do, doomed if you don't. If you make it work on good skill checks then you won't have any for when someone does mess up. If you don't make it work on good skill checks then you will be at max tokens for the entirety of the game, save for that one time someone misses a skill check. Its a slippery slope both ways
Counterforce:
- You are completely right. I don't know what I was thinking:
- Reveals aura of furthest totem for 3/4/5 seconds
Fast track:
- ever since this perk was released, i thought it would be better if it did what i changed sole survivor to do. but ever since they added gen speed to sole survivor, i just kinda forgot about it. I dont think I have ever seen that perk both as survivor and killer, so i kinda just went overboard. So I'm actually gonna change two perks here:
- Fast Track: For each dead survivor, gain a token. Each token increases repair speed by 15/20/25%
- Sole Survivor: Removed repair speed bonus. Increase exit gate opening and hatch unlocking speed by 75%
Saboteur:
- All I am doing is removing the cooldown If you cancel the action partway. I dont see how that would make it impossible for killers to hook people, especially since toolboxes can already do that (with the cost being a few charges). There have been too many times where i accidentally tap m1 near a hook and have to wait 60 seconds to get my perk back.
Eruption:
- TBH this is not my idea. Basically everyone has been suggesting this change (including me) so i just threw it in there because I am very original :)
No way out / Remember me:
- At this point I don't know what to do about these two. The whole 1v1 endgame right now is just kind of an RNG mess (hatch spawn, door location, where each player is located when it starts) so for now:
- No longer deactivates when there is only one survivor remaining
Again, thank you for your time, insight, and criticism.
I appreciate it :D
This is not happening: Good idea
Cruel Limits: I guess this way it is better... It is already map and general rng dependant I mean get this thing on The Game and it won't do anything... But as you said, the stalemate situation is kind of annoying... And the gameplay it would have resulted in as well I mean... Survivors constantly get their gens interrupted but they can't do that much about it as other areas got blocked and the killer generally does not want to chase away from gens anyway... So both sides would be annoyed I guess, Same range as right now but longer block duration is fine... I think you can avoid using an area for a minute... You could even think about blocking pallets as well? But shorten the range to 24 or 28 m? I don't know might need to test this on some maps to see how much it would actually effect, because 32 m and blocked pallets might be a bit too much in general...
NOED: Ah ok, then I just got you wrong :D Yeah I agree... I think make it that and no matter how much time passed it reaches the maximum of 24m if somebody goes down...
Spies in the shadow: The issue with the way spys work is that an alert is not equal to the aura reading BBQ gives you... The aura reading allows you an assumption where the survivor is heading to, but only a notification every 30 seconds (it is currently 5 seconds) is really rough... I mean you take around 8-10 seconds to get there depending on killer and if you can go there directly or if tiles are in the way... They could be anywhere after that amount of time... If you kept the cooldown and made the thing constant though it would be somewhat of an alternative to other tracking perks... Because right now and with the change the value would be really little and inconsitant... I mean... Imagine it this way... You are on mothers dwelling... Someone disturbs a crow on the other side of the map... There is no way you are gonna go there... they are in narnia until you arrive :D Unless it rather constantly gives you information about the direction they are heading, then it might be worth it...
Breakout: Might be, I had a game the other day against a duo stack with no mither, breakout, saboteur and flip flop/breakdown... those guys were so annyoing xD They got rid of the only two hooks in that part of the map by using breakdown and then just camping the corner holy moly... I hate that so much...
Corrective Action: Agreed.
Counterforce: Glad you see it the same way ^^ The perk is already so nice against pentimento... You do totems in like 3 seconds :D:D
Fast Track: I like that change, gives you a shot at winning a game that turned into a 3v1...
Saboteur: What I meant was like imagine the survivors are all somewhat close and you're not playing a killer with a good chase power... The can just spread to the closest hooks and wait there... And whatever direction you can try to hook they can sabo it before you reach it... That's what I meant, but I know what you mean, it is really annoying if you do it by accident...
Eruption: Yeah, but that does not make it less of a good idea :D
No way out/ Remember me: The whole problem about the 1v1 endgame is the killer basically already won... And it is somewhat unfair for him to get robbed of the 4k because of stupid hatch luck or the survivor waiting at a door to instantly open it before the killer can reach the door... That's why I basically want both parties to win... The killer gets his 4k but the survivor can get something out of it if he lives long enough...
Some perks are just lost causes where the basic design of the perk makes it somewhat annoying but in a way that can't get changed for the better if you don't change what it does entirely... But most are readeamable I guess ^^
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@bleblablu said:
Just a fairly long list of perk buffs/nerfs/reworks that I would like. Sorry in advanced if I suggest something stupid.
But first, some global base game changes:
- Boon totems that are snuffed can not be re-blessed for 30 seconds
- Cleansed rekindled totems can not be re-lit for 30 seconds
Guardian/Babysitter: (buff)
- Increased the duration to 8/9/10 seconds
Kinship/Camaraderie: (buff)
- Can now activate during the first hook phase
- Notifies all survivors when activated (If it doesn't already)
Situational Awareness/Better Together: (buff)
- Increased the gen aura reading range to 64 meters
- Gen aura now appears in red
- Increased the survivor aura reading duration to 20/25/30 seconds
Spine chill: (buff)
- Increased the bonus action speed to 10/15/20%
This is Not Happening: (buff)
- Now increases the success zones of both good and great skill checks
- Now applies to all skill checks(e.g. Wiggling, struggling, Snap out of it)
- Now always active
Bitter Murmur: (buff)
- Once a generator is completed, reveals the auras of all survivors for 6/8/10 seconds
Claustrophobia/Cruel Limits: (rework)
- Reduced the range to 12/14/16 meters
- Removed the perk duration
Deerstalker: (buff)
- The recovery progress of dying survivors is now revealed to you with a white aura that increases in intensity
Distressing: (rework)
- Increases the terror radius by 8 meters
- When a survivor enters your terror radius, they scream and reveal their location for 2/3/4 seconds. This perk then goes on cooldown for 45 seconds. (survivors will not scream if they are in your terror radius when this perk goes off cooldown)
Hex: No One Escapes Death: (nerf)
- The hex totem's aura will immediately activate when all generators have been completed
Insidious: (rework)
- Grants you the undetectable status effect for 20/25/30 seconds at the start of a trial and after a generator is completed
Spies in the Shadows: (rework)
- Crows startled by survivors outside of a 42 meter radius alert you
- This perk then goes on cooldown for 50/45/40 seconds
Unrelenting: (buff)
- Decreases successful attack cooldown by 10%
Aftercare: (buff)
- No longer resets upon being hooked
Better Than New: (buff)
- Increase action speed by 16/18/20%
Boon: Dark Theory: (buff)
- Increase lingering effect duration to 4/6/8 seconds
Breakout: (buff)
- Increase wiggle speed bonus to 25%
Buckle Up: (buff)
- Survivors within 48 meters recover 50% faster
Built to Last: (buff)
- Reduce the item replenish time to 12/11/10 seconds
Calm Spirit: (buff)
- Increase unlocking, cleansing, and blessing speed by 10/20/30%
Corrective Action: (rework)
- Start with 3 tokens up to a maximum of 5/7/9 tokens
- Affects survivors within a 32 meter radius
- failed skill checks are considered good skill checks and consume 1 token
- good skill checks are considered great skill checks and consume 1 token
Counterforce: (buff)
- Reveals the aura of the closest totem for 3/4/5 seconds
Clairvoyance: (buff)
- Increase aura reading duration to 11/13/15 seconds
Dance With Me: (buff)
- Reduce cooldown to 50/40/30 seconds
Decisive Strike: (buff)
- Increase stun duration to 5 seconds
Desperate Measures: (buff)
- Increase action speed bonus to 16/18/20% to a maximum of 64/72/80%
Detectives Hunch: (buff)
- Increase aura duration to 15 seconds
Empathetic Connection: (buff)
- Fixed aura reveal to 96 meters
- Increase heal speed to 10/20/30%
Fast Track: (buff)
- Increase token gain to 2/4/6 tokens per hook
For the People: (buff)
- reduce the broken status effect duration to 60/50/40 seconds
Hyperfocus: (nerf)
- No longer activates while using items
Iron will: (buff)
- Reduce grunts of pain by 65/80/95%
Left Behind: (buff)
- Increase aura reading range to 32/48/64 meters
- Gain a 7% haste status effect while the hatch is still open
Pharmacy: (buff)
- Increased chest unlocking speed and reduced hearing range are now always active
Plunderer's Instinct: (buff)
- Items with the common rarity can no longer appear in chests
Poised: (buff)
- Gain a 7% haste status effect
- Increased the duration to 10/15/20 seconds
Repressed Alliance: (buff)
- Reduced time required to activate to 50/45/40 seconds
Saboteur: (buff)
- This perk will no longer go on cooldown after canceling the sabotage action before it can be completed
Self-Care: (buff)
- Increased healing speed to 40/45/50%
Self-Preservation: (buff)
- Increase the range of activation to 20 meters
- Increase the duration to 10/13/16 seconds
Sole Survivor: (buff)
- Each token increases repair speed by 25%
Solidarity: (buff)
- Now works with med-kits
- Increases med-kit efficiency while healing another survivor by 50%
Up the Ante: (rework)
- Increase self-unhook chance for all survivors by 7/8/9%
- When a survivor completes a struggle phase skill check, there is a 3% chance to pause the struggle timer for 5 seconds
Vigil: (buff)
- Now reduces the Incapacitated status effect
Visionary: (buff)
- Removed perk cooldown
- Generator auras are revealed at 26/29/32 meters
Wake Up!: (buff)
- aura ranges are now infinite
- Increased gate opening speed to 30/40/50%
Awakened Awareness: (buff)
- Increased aura reading range to 18/20/22 meters
Beast of Prey: (rework)
- When starting a chase with a survivor, that survivor suffers from the oblivious status effect for 20/25/30 seconds
Blood Echo: (buff)
- Removed perk cooldown
- Applies the hemorrhage and exhausted status effect for 35/40/45 seconds
Call of Brine: (nerf)
- Only receive noise notifications on great skill checks
Coup de Grace: (buff)
- Increased lunge duration to 80/90/100%
- Only activates when needed
Dragons Grip: (buff)
- Reduced cooldown to 100/80/60 seconds
Dying Light: (buff)
- The obsession is now affected by the speed penalty
Eruption: (rework)
- Reduce incapacitated duration to 8/10/12 seconds
- Increase progression penalty to -15%
Fire Up: (buff)
- Increase action speed bonus to 3/4/5%
- Now affects searching lockers and snuffing boon totems
Gearhead: (buff)
- Now activates when a survivor completes a good skill check
- Plays a sound cue when activated
Grim Embrace: (buff)
- Increase perk duration to 35/40/45 seconds
- All survivor auras are shown
Hangman's Trick: (buff)
- Increase aura reading range to 6/7/8 meters
- Now shows you the wiggle progression of the survivor
Hex: Huntress Lullaby: (buff)
- Skill check warning sound is disabled while the related hex totem still stands
Hex: Undying: (rework)
- When a hex totem is cleansed, this perk activates
- While this perk is active, gain the ability to rekindle a totem
- A rekindled totem will inherit the effects of the most recently cleansed totem
- Once you rekindle a totem, this perk deactivates
- reveals the aura of survivors within 2/3/4 meters of a dull totem
Lightborn: (buff)
- Survivors now get a false blind notification for actions that would normally blind you
No Way Out: (nerf)
- Deactivates when there is only one survivor remaining in the trial
Oppression: (buff)
- Reduced cooldown to 80/70/60 seconds
Pop Goes the Weasel: (buff)
- Regresses generators by -20% of total progression
Predator: (buff)
- The aura of scratch marks are revealed to you within 6/7/8 meters
- Scratch marks spawn considerably closer together
Remember Me: (buff)
- Increased maximum number of tokens to 6/7/8 tokens
- Deactivates when there is only one survivor remaining in the trial
Save the Best for Last: (nerf)
- Looses 4/3/2 tokens when the obsession looses a health state by any means
Septic Touch: (buff)
- No longer restricted by your terror radius
- Increased lingering duration to 10/15/20 seconds
Shadowborn: (buff)
- Survivors now have a small white outline tht can only be seen by you (Think dredge nighttime, but way less noticeable)
Stridor: (buff)
- Increase survivors breathing by 25% across all tiers
- Increase the volume of survivor's grunts of pain by 30/40/50%
Territorial Imperative: (rework)
- The auras of survivors in the basement are revealed to you, and linger for 3/4/5 seconds after they leave the basement
Thanatophobia: (rework)
- Reduce action speed by 2/3/4% for each injured survivor
Well that's it. Please share your thoughts, and any criticism is greatly appreciated!
Holy moly, since these are so many I'll only comment on those I find problematic in some way...
- This is not happening: It might be too strong in combination with hyperfocus and Stake out for a "gen rush" build... Also the interaction with the wiggling is already faster than the normal one without the skillchecks, but with this in addition it will be really easy to hit them and potentially wiggle out faster...
- Cruel Limits: So the windows just stay blocked forever?? I mean yeah sure, the reduced range will probably make it hard to get much value out of it in general, but with permanent blocked windows this could be really rough with the right rng...
- NOED: I am really not a fan of NOED, since it helps killers that played bad get a kill or two without really deserving it... But with this change it is basically impossible to get value out of it... As soon as the gens are done they will look around once and immediatly know where to go and if they need to play stealthy or not... Maybe show the aura after the first hit? Or show that it's NOED immediatly but only after xy secodns the aura is visible to everyone? So the killer at least has some time to find them...
- Spies in the shadows: Why does it have a cooldown? And also 42 m is huge... On some maps you can stand in the middle and this won't even activate... Also survivors trigger crows all the time... You will never get value out of it, if it has a cooldown... Especially when it is that long...
- Breakout: The whole playstyle of denying hooks by sabotaging and staying in a corner of the map with no mither and so on is annoying as it is, and I really don't want anything that playstyle consists of to be buffed...
- Corrective Action: I mean when playing with players that hit skillchecks that could be a nice interaction... But you might not have the stacks this way when you actually work on a gen with the weak link who can't hit skillchecks...
- Counterforce: Totems will be gone in an instant because you don't need to travel all across the map anymore... I generally don't play with hex perks but this will really destroy anyone that does... But then again everyone hates not finding that one stupid totem in some bush at the end of the world... So it could be fine.
- Fast Track: If you run this perk 4 times... and each one gets basically 72% of a gen out of it... with 2 hooks on everyone... That's really rough to be honest... I think this might be a little bit overbuffed... Perks that mess with gen speeds are a problem already :/
- Saboteur: Could lead to potentially never being able to get a hook if people are coordinated and play the (no mither) sabo build...
- Eruption: I really like this change, the 25 seconds of not being able to do anything is always so annoying (The one change I liked and still said something about it ^^)
- No Way Out: I mean yeah sure it is kind of unfair when the hatch gets closed and you are basically dead no matter what you do... But at that point you already lost the game... So at some point the survivor should just die... Or at least make it something that gives you something for a good chase... Let's say Killer and survivor see each others aura until a chase is started and from the beginning of the chase a timer of xy seconds starts and if the survivor can survive for the amount of time (that could be dependant on the killer you're playing like smaller amount of time against nurse or spirit or blight or so...) you will get an extra amount of bloodpoints...
- Pop Goes the Weasle: It did get nerfed for a reason and I'm fine with it... I'd rather have jolt and sloppy work on special attacks instead of this...
- Remember Me: Same as for No way out....
The rest I didn't comment on is fine I think, most of the buffs won't really make the perks meta or so, but they won't be as bad as they are currently, which is nice... And a higher perk variety is always good.
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So you basically only need to be hooked for 60 seconds to die on hook? Facecamping gets a huge buff xD
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@jamally093 said:
Seriously there is no other game I've played that has this BAD of matchmaking I've tried every area of time morning,afternoon,evening and evening late in the night and it's always the same way to high skilled survivors when I play killer way to low skilled survivors when a play survivor. Fix matchmaking it was fine before grades become a thing seriously I want to know what happened. Even better actually if your wondering why a lot of killers go AFK it's because they're trying to be paired with their skill level.
How many of the games you played were asymmetrical? That's one of the main issues here... both teams don't use the same tools... which makes it rough to set a proper way of measuring skill... Matchmaking now is basically the same as before, SBMMR did not change much... The mmr range at which you will get matched with other people widens the longer the queue is, because the prioritize queue time over fair games... Because otherwise some people would have to wait for hours to get a game... Also they did it for killer variety as people on the upper end would mostly get matched against blight, spirit and nurse without many exceptions... Other games have it way easiert to determine a win or skill in that matter... Since both teams usually have the same goal: Starcraft, Dota or Counter Strike for example... Bothe teams do the same, yeah in counter strike the objective changes half way through but still... Over all you do the same thing and the team with the higher score won because the apparently performed better than the other team... But how do you apply that to DBD? How would you measure skill in this game? And even if you could measure it appropriately... The matchmaking right now prioritizes queue times over fairness... If your system could track skill perfectly it still would not matter because then you again have the question do you want fair games but wait 1-2 h per game or do you want rather random games but not have to wait that long... The game would probably die to some degree if they pulled through with stricter matchmaking and games had a 1-2 h long queue time beforehand...
In summon maybe just ask yourself if you have any clue on how to improve the situation... Because if you only say what everybody else already knows you're not really contributing something dude... Therefore go fix matchmaking yourself, if you have any clue how...
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@Clockwork_Enigma said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3270148#Comment_3270148
With the amount of power and synergy it has, it incentivizes actually trying to stay alive. Otherwise, it'd be busted.
But when the killer realises you have the perk he will have it rather easy to get rid of you... And with more than one person using it that will be really rough on the killer... Stacking on gens is already not a good idea, but with that huge of a downside, thats gonna be rough xD
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@Reinami said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3270031#Comment_3270031
Sounds good. So where are my nurse buffs then? The God tier nurses are so rare you will basically encounter them once every few hundred matches... So balancing around that would be kind of tough.
Better yet, let's stage a fun hypothetical. Imagine there were a killer offering that did the following:
- The killer permanently moves at 300% movement speed
- The survivors are permanently exposed.
- The auras of all survivors are permanently revealed to the killer.
- The time it takes to repair a generator is increased by 200%
Now, this offering has a 0.1% chance of appearing in the bloodweb. This means you would only see it 1 time out of every 1000 or so games (give or take) played.
is this offering balanced? Is it fair? Should it be nerfed?
Why buffs when nurse performed at roughly 60% killrate on the top 5% of killer players against people in normal matchmaking... If 60% killrate is the goal that has been set that is...
The point is for which group of players are you gonna balance the game? Because you cannot balance it for bad, mediocre, good and comp players at the same time... So if you ask me if I would rather balance 99.9% of the things people encounter in the game than the really rare 0.1% thing that an ordinary player will encounter rougly once every 300-400 hours of pure playtime...
Let me give you a more serious and better example ... Bad players have no clue how to play nurse and struggle with mechanically demanding killers... If we were to balance it for them those killers would need a lower skillfloor or major buffs... The lower skillfloor would be a better options since it would not influence the performance of the killer for better players who already know what they are doing on this certain killer ... But the concept of the killer itself is maybe not changeable in a way that allows to lower the skillfloor... Nurse for example already has an addon that makes it easiert ot hit blinks, besides that I would not really know what else to change to make her easier to play... There is a similar addon for Blight but it does not really work as it is supposed to as it ignores slippery collision and so on... The point is if you want to use Blights rushes in chase and not just for mobility there is not really much you could do to change the way he works without buffing him, the same goes for Billy and Curving... So for the example of blight... if we make him easier it might help bad players but since the change would probably buff him overall he might now be too opressive versus mediocre players...
Let's take a closer look at the blight example... He has an addon that shows the bump target... But it does not take into account the weird collision some objects have and does not show if they are slippery or not... Learning which tiles you can bump into is a major part of getting really good at blight... And he would be way easier to play or even perform really well with if the addon would display that properly... But then again by keeping him as strong as he is but removing a major part of the hardship you have to go through to become so good at him might make him really oppressive... You did not even buff him directly by doing that and you could still say by having it as an addon he cannot use two really good addons... But you still made it possible for potentially worse players to perform really well on him even though they are not really good at the game, but the addon makes the killer just really easy (hypothetically if it was like that)... And that is the whole question of balancing... Who are you balancing for? Because a change that might be balanced for a specific group of players will be really opressive for others... And that's why the focus should be on the majority of players which are rather average in terms of skill... We cannot really balance for comp because then survivor would either need a huge nerf or probably around 20 killers would need a major buff and the results of those changes would be all over the place... This is not like Starcraft 2 or Dota or Lol where you can just balance for the pros and the rest will work out for itself... Those games have proper matchmaking that matches players of equal skill... And everyone has technically the same tools to work with... It's just completely different than an asymmetrical game and needs to be looked at differently ...
Since comp survivors can win against comp spirits blights or nurses under specific rules and limitations for both sides... Imagine every killer in the game would be as rough to go against strenght wise than those 3 ... The game would be really miserable for everyone that is not a comp player and we cannot really want that... But at the same time completely broken stuff like MDR, tombstone piece and so on should still not be kept in the game... The ocasional comp squad is not an addon or offering that you can just remove without any effects on the rest of the game... If you would want to nerf comp squads you would need to nerf survivors or buff killers as said before... It is just not that easy... And you really need to choose your goals... Because a balanced game is not necessarily balanced at all skill levels and probably can not be as it is asymmetrical...
The whole problem with "top mmr killers" is that the matchmaking works in a way that it prioritises queue time over balance... Because if it did not you would have like 2 hour queues... I think it was Dowsey who experienced that when they first introduced the mmr... His mmr was apparently so high that there were no players found in the range to match them together... So nowadays even though his mmr on twins would be probably at around the same level (I'd assume) he will find a game in like 5-10 minutes max... They changed the system to have a wider area of groups of players with lower or higher mmr that are considered a match to get better queue times... And this leads us to the whole problem I mentioned before... Comp Squads and really really good players are so rare that they would never find games against equally strong killers... With the changed matchmaking conditions however those guys can get matched against your average killer player and they will demolish him... the same goes the other way around... Really good killer players with several thousand hours will also get the average survivors mostly... Because the average players just make up the majority of the player base... And the survivors will have a really rough time... What do you do about that? Change matchmaking back and require it to have a stricter form of matchmaking? They even lowered it again inbetween because some people complained about little killer variety... they only got nurse blight and spirit all day long... And now matchmaking just throws you in with some random guys after like 5-10 min when the matchmaking considers your search time too long so you don't have to wait forever...
I would like to have an honest discussion about what could be a solution to this issue... Because I have no clue... On the one hand hours long queues would be really annoying... people who play survivor would probably die on purpose every game just to keep their queue times low and killer players might get their 8 hooks and let everyone go because they ccannot be asked to wait hours for a match... Or they would just stop playing machtmaking and only play against friends, or just don't play anymore... Nobody ain't got that much time to just sit around for 2 hours and do nothing but wait... But at the same time i fully understand the frustration of players that just got demolished by someone they felt like they could not do anything about...
And in conclusion that's exactly why I said comp squads or really really good players are rare... So the best thing you can do is take the 5 minute loss and move on... Because there is nothing else you can do... At least as far as I can think of a proper solution. But hey if you know something feel free to explain..
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@LazyClown said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3270152#Comment_3270152
When all you do is go for straight up kills no matter the cost, you'll be quite surprised how far up they can get up in mmr.
1st you cannot know how high your mmr is.... 2nd it does not really matter since matchmaking cannot match people with high mmr with other people with the same high mmr... Therefore after some minutes you will just get matched with a whole lot of people who have lower mmr... Even if you have 3000 mmr you will still get matched with people that are around 1600 - + 300 or so
So in the end mmr is irrelevant...
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The vast majority of players in this game is just not that good therefore weaker killers still work even if your killer mmr is high... Also mmr does not mean much as the range of mmr at which you can get a match gets larger the longer the queue time is...
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@LazyClown said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3270094#Comment_3270094
Im referring to the weak killers in a high level setting.
But you will basically almost never encounter really good survivors even when you play a weak killer... Unless you scrim against some good players chances are good you will get the average guys all the time.. At least in normal matchmaking
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@Clockwork_Enigma said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3270118#Comment_3270118
Pretty much. Except with the huge downside that you can just die faster than normal, which is its major counterbalance.
Oh I completely overread the part with two hook stages... That sounds terrible then dude XD
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@Clockwork_Enigma said:
Current Up the Ante
For each Survivor still in the Trial, Up the Ante gains 1 token.
- Each token applies a stack-able 1%/2%/3% bonus to the Luck of all Survivors, up to a maximum of 3%/6%/9%.
Let's Actually Up the Ante, Shall We?
For the entire Trial, you only have two hook stages. So long as you remain alive, the following effects will apply to other Survivors:
- All Survivors within a 32 meter radius of you will gain a 13%/14%/15% increase to action speeds in repairing, healing, cleansing, blessing, opening and sabotaging.
- This effect lingers for 3 seconds after they are outside of your radius.
Only one instance of Up the Ante can be active at a time.
Did you just make prove thyself but better? xD
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@LazyClown said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3270062#Comment_3270062
The solos actually do gens faster from my experience. And with reassurance anything is possible on any survivor team.
Nah man, most solo survivors I encounter both when playing survivor and killer just stack up on gens and that's less efficient... And I did not even a SWF with coms when I said a good survivor team... Just imagine a stack of people all somewhat equally skilled not necessarily in a group... They will loop you for ages and also split up on gens... And why would you need reassurance anyway? XD If you don't camp it is kind of wasted anyway...
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@LazyClown said:
Lets just face it, killers are screwed, at least the weak ones
Against a really good survivor team yes... Against the average guys you get via matchmaking not.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3269799#Comment_3269799
Huntress lifts the hatchet before throwing
That is because your expected to wiggle against huntress and she is expected to hit survivors that are wiggling because of her bigger hatchet hitboxs at middle-to long ranges.
But old spirit and old deathslinger just did not have those things
Slinger is not expected to deal with wiggling, he is expected to do flick shots and your expected as survivor to flick dodges(last second dodges) in his original design. Spirit is obviously stealth killer in chase. gaining information defeats purpose of stealth. Different killers, Different mechanics, Different balance.
Most killers have some form of tell
that is why most killer are not strong as a result of failure to induce mindgames. Too easy to loop. too safe powers.
You can reaction dodge a huntress hatchet if she throws it from further away... So there is actually action and reaction how it should be...
Nobody did flick shots on slinger, since the sensitivity while in ads was different they all just insta shot while already aiming on the survivor with nothing they could do about it... And how do you dodge something that cannot be reacted to man...
Spirit is not a stealth killer XD Also all the stealth killers have some tell survivors can work with... Myers breathings, Ghostfaces cloak rustling, Wraith has his gnarling and Pig has the sound of her blade or the roar depending on if she stands up or uses her dash... They might not have a heartbeat but you can hear them coming if you listen... Sometimes it does not work and the noise of a generator or something like that will overshadow the noise these killers make but in general they are intended to be hear if the survivor pays attention... Old spirit had nothing like that. And I have not heard a single person call spirit a stealth killer... Stealth killers approach survivors silently and become somewhat hearable while in close range... Spirit had a heartbeat and when you phased from outside the terror radius towards a survivor they heard a non direactional phasing sound... But there was basically nothing you could do to know if she was phasing towards you and grab you any second now...
The whole concept of stealth killers in this game is that they don't have a heartbeat (or it is so little it does not really matter at that point) and need to get to the survivors unseen for an easy first attack, but don't really perform too good in chase... They are not necessarily invisible, even Wraith can be seen from a certain distance... Spirit however was completely different... She is 100% a chase killer and has always been... Her power is great antiloop and can/could be used at basically any tile in the game... So she is immensely different from any stealth killer.
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@Reinami said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3268853#Comment_3268853
Top 5% includes the megheads. Let's talk about the actual top MMR survivors:
Yeah but they are so rare you will basically encounter them once every few hundred matches... So balancing around that would be kind of rough... And also if the top 5% mmr killers would encounter those really good players frequently there would be no way for the lower tier killers to still get even close to 50% killrate... So the most reasonable thing is to assume that even the really good killers don't encounter the really good survivors frequently.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3269785#Comment_3269785
The point is that the play the killer does should include some kind of information the survivor has to work with... It does not need to be too obvious but it should be something... That's why old spirit was annoying, she did not have any tell... That's all I'm asking for...
You completely misunderstand what the correct playstyle for the knight currently is... He is basically just the Artist... put down guard at tile... Survivor will now either find another tile to hold w to or he will be confronted with "2 killers" and will get hit... The Knight is just another example of a good idea with a bad execution...
I would also prefer him to be different... Have the guards have longer patrol duration and bit more different strenghts compared to each other... I'm not entirely sure what to do with the idea that gives the survivor options besides holding w to the next tile tbh... But since he is quite new there might be some idea coming...
I don't want guessing in this game... I want proper reation to the information given played out in a skillfull way... a 50 50 at a TL wall or something like that is fine here and there but the majority of the game should be more than that.
Most killers have some form of tell... Trapper has an animation (he can cancel to try and make the survivor leave the tile preemptively), Wraith can fake his uncloak to make the survivor drop the pallet preemptively, Nurse has an indication when she is starting her blink, Huntress lifts the hatchet before throwing and so on... Most of them have some form of an animation that indicates they are using their power or at least starting to use it... Does not necessarily mean they'll go through... But old spirit and old deathslinger just did not have those things... And I think that's also somewhat sad from a killer point of view... Because when you're not really giving information to the survivor to trick him then you're not deceiving them in a skillfull way... And that's probably the most fun stuff: seeing your tricks work... But when you just stood still as old spirit and pretended to phase and the survivor had no clue and could only guess and vaulted into you and got grabbed you didn't really do anything to deserve that outcome... You did nothing but stand still... that's like the stupidest thing in any game... getting a good result despite not doing anything for it... And that's why I am glad it got changed. On a sidenote.. When you have good addons on a spirit you're not really deceiving them anyway... You move so fast it does not really matter and can just catch them regardless when you know what you're doing.. But at least the survivor gets something he can work with and potentially act accordingly... Does not mean it will work out...
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3269666#Comment_3269666
I just want a system where a player can use their skill to change the outcome of the situation if they reacted correctly
Let me repharse my position. I want a system where the a player can use their skill to change the outcome of the situation if they predict correctly their opponent play. When I play killer, I make the plays and you need figure them out. You should not know my play in advance before I make the play, that is your job to figure it out.
The knight is perfect representation of showcasing everything the killer does before hand to the survivor. No guess work required from survivor part. So don't worry, dev already took your side even though I disagree with it.
The point is that the play the killer does should include some kind of information the survivor has to work with... It does not need to be too obvious but it should be something... That's why old spirit was annoying, she did not have any tell... That's all I'm asking for...
You completely misunderstand what the correct playstyle for the knight currently is... He is basically just the Artist... put down guard at tile... Survivor will now either find another tile to hold w to or he will be confronted with "2 killers" and will get hit... The Knight is just another example of a good idea with a bad execution...
I would also prefer him to be different... Have the guards have longer patrol duration and bit more different strenghts compared to each other... I'm not entirely sure what to do with the idea that gives the survivor options besides holding w to the next tile tbh... But since he is quite new there might be some idea coming...
I don't want guessing in this game... I want proper reation to the information given played out in a skillfull way... a 50 50 at a TL wall or something like that is fine here and there but the majority of the game should be more than that.
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@NMCKE said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3269746#Comment_3269746
40 second downs is actually pretty rough for the killer because you're likely downing with Victor, so you have to switch back to Charlotte, then walk and pick animations, then carry to hook. That's about 60 seconds for a hook, and then the killer has to find the other survivors at a generator, so it's pretty close before generators start popping and that doesn't include finding the first survivor.
BUT... I do understand what you mean! Maybe if this is too much, reduce Victor's movement speed by 0.4m/s, but allow him to vault? I dunno, but food for thought!
Yeah I understand what you mean, I just meant that it would differ from what it is like now, and twins is by no means a bad killer as they are right now... That's why I think the power level should not be changed too much...
Don't know about the vault ability... Would not do much... You don't get windows entity blocked while chasing with victor... So even if you vault the window the survivor can just vault back... Besides that windows are one of the few things that can help against twins...
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@NMCKE said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3269717#Comment_3269717
I stated a timer in the HUD so everyone would know it's a timer and not some random HUD effect.
It would depend where Victor pounced on them. They could just M1 away, or play around vaults to make Victor go around. Now, if you're in a dead zone, you're pretty much dead anyways.
Yeah but generally speaking victors chase is pretty good with not that much counterplay... And by basically drastically shortening twins chase time you're really buffing them... You're cutting the chase almost in half I think... Imagine it this way.. Right now you either have to M1 the survivor or wait ages until you can recall victor while going after them... With this you can basically just always use victor without having to fear to have no power for quite some time... I don't know what to think of it to be honest :/ We would need to test how much time it actually cuts off... Because if it ends up making chases take 30-40 seconds till down that would be a little bit rough.
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@NMCKE said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3269704#Comment_3269704
When Victor latches onto a healthy survivor, they will see a timer on the HUD. It let's them know how long they have to get rid of Victor before the skill checks begin and progressively get harder. They get 20 seconds before Victor starts to get aggressive and active skill checks, but the timer will pause when in the killer's terror radius (survivors nor the killer can see how much time they have remaining to avoid giving out free information).
It only takes three failed skill checks to down a survivor. 33% lost each fail, so it's in the survivor's best interest to get rid of him before then — otherwise it's going to be hard to manage skill checks, especially if you get found and enter a chase.
Charlotte can recall Victor once he is aggressive (20 seconds), or immediately when chasing a survivor who has Victor attacking them.
What do you mean by neither one can see the timer.. you just stated before that they had a timer in their HUD? xD I'm confused now xD
That would be a major buff to twins though... Probably putting them into mid to top A tier... Not because of the whole skillcheck thing but because of the instant recall when in chase... Chases against victor tend to end really fast as there is very little you can do about him, which makes holding him hostage the best choice, therefore forcing charlotte to rather m1 than use victor to injure... With this change you will have chases that end really fast. The whole skillcheck thing will basically never be relevant... People won't be able to leave your terror radius before you can enter chase again and recall victor and down them shortly after...
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@AMOGUS said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3269652#Comment_3269652
You can't repair gens or heal with Victor on you, Victor causes Incapitation until he gets removed. So these skill checks that remove deep wound timer can't exist.
Can't that be applied somehow? Does incapacitated not allow that in the way it is coded or what do you mean? Also he meant missing a skillcheck would lower the deep wound timer/bar... just like standing and not mending
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@NMCKE said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3269671#Comment_3269671
Skill checks would only appear after a certain amount of time, only when they aren't getting rid of Victor.
Hm... ok then... I guess the better players would still just keep him and deal with the skillchecks I guess... Do you want to keep the 30 or 40 second recall timer or what it is? Or only make the hard skill checks after that point?
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@NMCKE said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/354644/the-twins-need-a-good-rework
Great idea, especially the perks and extra interactions, but I feel like you missed a few core problems.
▪︎Kidnapping Victor.
▪︎Cool-downs switching between the siblings.
The latter can be addressed by making Victor apply deep wounds, and causing the survivor to complete progressively harder skill checks the longer he stays attached. Failing a skill check causes Victor to remove a portion of the deep wound meter.
Cool-downs should be 2 seconds and no movement speed penalty. BUT, when switching within 12 meters to a hook, the cooldown between switching is doubled and keep the movement speed penalty.
Harder and harder skillchecks as base mechanics just always provides some form of new players stomping potential... So I really would not recommend that... New players have issues hitting generator skillchecks, imagine them going down because they just could not hit a skillcheck on victor... People would hate twins even more...
There should just be no switching close to a hooked survivor as it provides a tool to camp more effectively and that's a boring and unfun strategy we should work on to be removed... Victor should just dissolve when a survivor gets hooked close by just like hags traps should...
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3269194#Comment_3269194
Also he was saying that when staying in the way he described the difference was so narrow that you could not necessarily pin point her exactly ...
I am saying you can know her position as shown in the spirit is dead video.
How is it balancing around bad survivors... A good or a bad survivor had to guess in the exact same way and the skill did not matter as they could not use their skill to process the given information since ther was just no information given at all... Also he was saying that when staying in the way he described the difference was so narrow that you could not necessarily pin point her exactly ...
No he is not gonna shoot you necessarily... If you just wiggle around and don't go anywhere he can just M1 you without the need to use his power at all... And even if he was guaranteed to shoot you at some point... What does it matter? It does not narrow it down to give you anything to work with...
one of major differences between better survivors and worse survivors is putting yourself in favourable position to guess correctly. there is no name for this, but it is about taking the path of least resistance. Remember what I said about wiggling in my previous post? Wiggling is about confusing killer where he is suppose to shoot while moving as forward as possible.. its risk vs reward mechanism. Worse survivor over-wiggle/wiggle incorrectly because their objective with wiggling is never get hit rather then to reduce probability of getting hit. You need to know how to hold-w effectively vs slinger to take path of least resistance then guess incoming shots that are inevitable to occur through normal dbd gameplay loop. You just want a full proof 100% strategy that asserts 0% probability in getting hit. In your ideal form of killers, you want to line of sight the killer and give near zero probability for the killer to shoot and just in case, he does get to shoot, you want to react to his shot and be able to near 100% dodge it. That is kinda of where slinger is at now a days. Survivor main logic is amusing. I will give it that.
I have nothing more to say about the topic. you can believe that seeing everything the killer does precisely and doing appropriate play is you outplaying the killer(winning mindgames) but I do not agree with that notion.
You cannot pin point her down to an exact position when you're on the complete other side of the loop dude... You can know that she is somewhere back there, but it is not that on point. You can somewhat estimate the position but at that distance you cannot know exactly where she is...
I really don't like that you're always putting words in my mouth... I don't want a fool proof system that always works, I just want a system where a player can use their skill to change the outcome of the situation if they reacted correctly... And a shot that does not provide that possibility at all is just not good game design in my opinion... I play both sides equally so once again what is with this assumption without any basis here?
The speed of slingers shot did not get changed at all... After he pulled up his gun you still don't know when he will shoot... You only get that much of a warning... Even today you cannot reaction dodge slingers shot at close distance... You really need to inform yourself better since your understanding of the game its mechanics and the numbers behind it is just atrociously bad...
Also trying to go over an argument just by stating that it would be the logic of a certain group of players while neglecting that most people play both roles seems like a really high IQ move... An argument does not loose its worth or gain any just because the person that said it changes... You need to still go over it and try to find flaws in the logic or mistakes in the numbers behind it... But you do you buddy... And if you don't people will mostly just ignore you when you don't provide proper counter arguments... Which works fine by me dude.
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@AverageAshEnjoyer said:
They've confirmed that twins are getting a rework...a full year ago. Honestly the changes are probably just going to be number stuff lmao
What else can we expect XD But then again most twins players would be alright if the downtime of victor after a hit was lowered so you can switch faster...
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@Archael said:
I havnt play twins, so perhaps i should not talk about their rework.
But i saw some videos of them... And this looked weird.
For me, the only thing they need is some basic AI to controll one of the siblings. Player giving Victor an order of patrol or guard location, and Charlotte doing chaces, damaging gens etc... Right now it looks just weird when she suddenly just freeze...
But then you just have the Knight in a different form... And since apparently the AI still does not work alright (when we consider nemesis zombies) unless they get a pre-defined path to walk along or move through objects... The idea of twins working like that would be nice... But since Knight exists we kind of already have that now... I would have liked the idea if it was originally like that... And maybe with something you could actually do to avoid the counterplay the knight currently has... Which is leaving a tile to get to another one because you cannot loop two killers at once...
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@Clockwork_Enigma said:
The Nurse is inarguably the most powerful and arguably most hated Killer in the game, and the one most neglected by the balance team when it comes to balancing a Killer. Her Power is very oppressive and her Perk synergy is beyond nutty, and she has caused several Perks over the years to be nerfed just because of her mere existence.
There isn't currently plans that I'm aware of of the developers reworking Nurse--although she should be top priority when it comes to balancing or reworking Killers, in my opinion--so the only thing that we can do is hope that they change her sometime in the future. She herself needs dramatic changes in order to put her more in line with other Killers and play in a way that still suits her but makes he play fairly.
But what could they do? This is where I come in again to hopefully garner enough attention so the developers can try to make a better future for The Nurse.
The Nurse
Power: Spencer's Last Breath
- Additional Interaction: The Nurse can now be stunned by pallets or Head On while traversing through her Blink. This interaction is similar to how The Spirit and The Onryo can be stunned despite being incorporeal otherwise.
- Alteration to Blink: Blinking now has a new visual indicator to grant players the ability to see the direction, range and location of where The Nurse will Blink. This indicator is a veil of smoky darkness, which will turn into a red aura to indicate an object where Nurse can travel through.
- The indicator is also present from the Survivor's perspective, as well, granting them the ability to play around The Nurse's Blinks a lot better.
- Alteration to Blink: Blinking no longer requires charging for distance. Instead, distance is based on the direction that you aim the Blink while charging the ability.
- Buff: The Nurse now moves at 4.6m/s when not using her Power.
- Buff: The Nurse now has 3 Blink charges.
- Buff: The base duration of post-Blink Fatigue is reduced to 1.25 seconds.
- Buff: The additional duration of Fatigue based on Blinks is reduced to +0.25 seconds.
- Buff: The additional duration of Fatigue based on attacking is reduced to +0.5 seconds.
- Buff: The window of time to charge Chain Blink is increased to 2.5 seconds.
- Buff: The Nurse now goes into Fatigue from charging Chain Blink after 4 seconds.
- Nerf: The charge time of Blink is increased to 2.5 seconds.
- Nerf: The minimum distance of Blink is increased to 2.5 meters.
- Nerf: The minimum duration of Blinking is increased to 0.5 seconds.
- Nerf: Blink recharge time is increased to 4 seconds per Blink.
- Nerf: Blink recharge time after missing a post-Blink attack is increased to 5 seconds per Blink.
- Nerf: The Nurse can no longer Chain Blink through objects.
- Nerf: The Nurse can no longer Blink through objects without having fully replenished all Tokens.
- Nerf: The Nurse's post-Blink attacks are now considered Special Attacks.
- Nerf: The Nurse now consumes all Blink tokens upon missing her post-Blink attack.
- Change: While Blinking around objects, The Nurse will now slide around angled obstacles during a Blink to give it a smoother transition.
- Change: If The Nurse hits an object head-on with her Chain Blink, she will recoil momentarily for 0.25 seconds.
- Change: The Nurse's Terror Radius has been increased to 40 meters.
Perks
Stridor
- Increases the volume of Survivors' grunts of pain by 30%/40%/50%.
- Increases the volume of normal Survivor breathing by 5%/15%/25%.
- Increases the range you can hear injured Survivors by 4 meters.
Thanatophobia
- Whenever a Survivor is hooked, each injured, hooked or dying Survivor is afflicted with Thanatophobia, and the following effects apply for the next 30 seconds:
- Survivors receive a stack-able 3%/4%/5% penalty to healing, cleansing and blessing speeds.
- Survivors receive a stack-able 5% penalty to repair speeds.
- Thanatophobia will deactivate prematurely if a Survivor is healed.
A Nurse's Calling
- Survivors that are healing or being healed within 24/28/32 meters of your location will have their auras revealed to you.
- Survivors that are healing will become Oblivious.
Add-Ons
While I'm not going to go into detail about the add-ons, much like the Twins page I made back, the best idea for this rework is to make all add-ons affect some aspect of The Nurse's kit, but without re-introducing the old Nurse's mechanics within it whatsoever. (So no add-on that gives her 2 Blinks but makes her Blink through walls again.)
Add-ons that once gave her the abilities she has now would probably have to be reworked or fine tuned into something else, too. And no add-on should basically give her the ability of a Perk, either.
But otherwise, this is the gist of what The Nurse actually would need to become a fairly more popular and favorable Killer amongst the community. This gives her ability some unique flair while now playing within the rules of the Trial for the most part. This also gives The Nurse more popularity amongst newer or older players that are put off by her mechanics and high skill floor, and would likely increase her pick rate as a Killer.
While Twins need a rework that changes so much about them, Nurse needs checks to ensure her Power is balanced, and multiple numbers changes in order to make an overhaul like this work.
If Nurse can get something like this, she would be seen in a far better light than what she is now.
I'll go over the perks first and the ability later...
Stridor and Thana seem fine, unless I'm missing something...
But Nurses Calling seems useless with this addition... So when you become oblivious you'll get a hint in the UI... Which makes it fairly easy to deduct that the nurse must have this perk.. So you'll probably just not heal in her heartbeat... Which you should not do anyway, because she can reach you while you're in her heartbeat and stationary... The issue with this change is it will only have an impact if you're outsight of her terroradius when you start the heal... And when you hide behind an object and can spot the surroundings you can probably prevent being caught... But as Nurses Calling is right now you have no information that she might have it... Which I like a lot more to be honest.
Now to the power... The whole change kind of removes her identity... She needs to use the blink to catch up to survivors because she cannot catch up by following... So her greatest strenght (being able to teleport through objects) is also kind of her weakness as she is reliant on it... And this can be used to the survivors advantage... I love this unique form of counterplay that she currently has and she is different from all the other killers that just use their powers at tiles and follow normally besides that. I would just like it if her chase time could not be altered by the use of perks... She has one of the strongest chase powers in the game... Cutting the chase time in half by using exposed perks should not be a thing.
The comparisson to Blight someone else made kind of fits... A teleport is not just moving really fast during it... It is more like appearing and disappearing... Therefore why would she get affected by anything in between? She can blink through an object but can get hit by a pallet? The comparisson to spirit and onryo is lacking because they cannot go through dropped pallets or walls but nurse can... Why should nurse be affected by a dropping pallet but not by the standing one... Does not really make sense...
I had the same idea about a visiual indicator some time ago, the only problem is that it can be manipulated fairly easy... Just flick last second... The same as huntress then this entire feature is useless and you probably cannot even rely on the blink distance.... I think it is good design that you can know the distance of her blink by looking at her hand already... If it is clenched she blinks max distance...
- Also I don't really understand what you mean by
- "Alteration to Blink: Blinking no longer requires charging for distance. Instead, distance is based on the direction that you aim the Blink while charging the ability."
So are you always at max distance? and if so why do you still have a 2.5 second charge time for the blink? I'm not entirely sure how you can regulate the distance you're blinking.... If it is like the further you move your camera up or down and so on... How does this work with blinking through walls or up and down through the floor... I don't like that idea.
I also think by not having to develop muscle memory to know where the blink is gonna land you lower her skill ceiling by quite a lot and by removing the loose line of sight counterplay you're also making it more boring to go against...
Reworking her addons and somewhat getting rid of the synergy with exposed perks would be an easier and better change I think...
Also I find the idea of loosing her blink charges on a successfull hit interesting, but I don't like it... At first I thought it was a good idea... But then again it punishes precise players who only need one blink, so that's why I don't like it... (I was thinking about this for a change for current nurse without changing her basekit otherwise... But because of that reason I don't think it is a good idea...)
Overall I think the changes are way too much... Many people agree that her addons are too strong and the usage of exposed perks is too much... But besides that I think she is fine honestly... There are some things you can try to deceive her and make her loose you, Self-Aware is a great perk against nurse and her mechanics allow a unique form of counterplay and make some tiles (edgemap) viable against her that are otherwise completely useless... I know when somebody has mastered Nurse there is very little you can do... But the same goes for Spirit and blight as well... You are not gonna win those games... But then again why should you? The guy has mastered the killer and you probably have not mastered survivor...
When we look against players of equal skill on those killers... For example the Showcase Hens333 did for Spirit where a comp spirit (one of the best spirits over all) went against Team Eternal (best comp team at the moment) There was still a way too loose this as spirit... Although the player himself was failry sure to 4k them before they got all gens done in the 2nd and 3rd game because he uses pop goes the weasle and not noed... And for the case of nurse we can look at SupaAlf vs Hens333 and his friends .... Alf has a 500 wins streak on nurse with probably no limiations to perks and offerings and the survivor team that consists of Hens and 3 of his friends that are as far as I know all comp players that limited themselves to the rules of their streak... They got over 200 wins in a row with those rules... I think it is a limitation to not use items unless found and kept in trial and not using the same perks more than twice or once... Not sure about that one...
When we look at the Nurse example as above already mentioned by someone else Alf lost one game... So even when you've basically mastered a killer you can still loose to players that have mastered survivor...
I don't think someone that has mastered a skill intesive hard to learn/master killer should loose easily to your average survivor players... I think it is somewhat fair that some killers are worth the effort you put into them... And I would like to keep some hard to learn/play/master killers in this game...
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So are you unable to just put the headphones away? You don't really need the hearing anyway while you're hooked... I mean sure you can turn down volume and other stuff... But if you seriously did not just remove the headphone from your head but gave up on hook I have serious doubts about your ability to survive XD Like are the headphones glued to your head or what XD This is like the worst complain I've ever read... xD
This has to be a meme.. There is no way someone can seriously think this is an issue XD
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@Archol123 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3269168#Comment_3269168
Agreed but apparently words have a different meaning for the guy...
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3269001#Comment_3269001
"Mindgame in the context of DBD is not deception. We are not playing town of salem or original name, Mafia. Its not game about deceiving. In the context of dbd, when player refer to a mindgame, its related to predicting what the opponent will do before they do it with minimal/no information."
No it is not... You give someone a certain information and assume they will react accordingly to it base upon that you do the opposite of what you made them think is gonna happen... That's exactly what a mindgame is in DBD.
"I also do not understand all these scottjund because.... these scottjund videos are textbook example of... how not play vs spirit. Man, I hate the whole balance around -bad- survivor players mentality. This whole thing he is talking about does not work vs good survivors..... you hear directional where spirit is phasing. in other words. you know exactly her precise location every second. that is why she has no dust clouds because who needs dust clouds with directional audio cue, the audio cue is better then seeing the killer with wall-hacks. you slide pallets on reaction. there is no mindgames. I went to search old video to showcase this. tru3 showcases this on ptb."
How is it balancing around bad survivors... A good or a bad survivor had to guess in the exact same way and the skill did not matter as they could not use their skill to process the given information since ther was just no information given at all... Also he was saying that when staying in the way he described the difference was so narrow that you could not necessarily pin point her exactly ...
First of all this is probably one of the most clickbait titles ever... Spirit is not dead at high level... Having to break two pallets a map does not kill spirit... And I love the assumption of balancing around bad players when this spirit is constantly loosing him and not being able to keep track of where he actually goes...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIiGws6MTwk
This is a far better example of spirit performing in high level... We a team of comp players playing against a comp spirit and oh my god who would have thought spirit is still able to perform really well... The spirit is one of the best spirit players in comp and the survivors are team Eternal... The best comp team at the moment... The whole point is even if you know where the spirit is it does not really matter as she moves so fast during her power that she can catch you regardless of you knowing where she is... That's exactly what happens in this spirit showcase... It does not matter if the survivor messes up because most tiles are just not safe against spirit especially when she is not going in addonless... And when you hear her rotating in one direction you need to act accordingly to that... unless you can just leave the tile entirely and go to the next one... But that risks that she will catch you in the open without any safety...
Mindgames play around reactions... you want them to react in a certain way... and then change to doing something different which puts them in a bad spot because they assumed the killer was coming from a different direction...
"This is wrong. you do have general information. Deathslinger is going to shoot at some point, you need figure out at what point he is going to shoot and Spirit is going phase and you need figure out her routing to neutralized effectiveness of phasing. that is entire mindgame behind their ability. this is entire point of their mindgame."
No he is not gonna shoot you necessarily... If you just wiggle around and don't go anywhere he can just M1 you without the need to use his power at all... And even if he was guaranteed to shoot you at some point... What does it matter? It does not narrow it down to give you anything to work with...
The whole point of a mindgame is to force a wrong reaction... That's the entire thing... How can one be so stubborn to not understand that...
"there is skill in blind guessing. I mean Poker is great example of a game based off guessing your opponent cards, the incoming cards on the board which are known as flop, the turn and river. Some player win a lot and other player lose all the time. There is skill-cap behind guessing correctly more often then being wrong. you can never be fully correct because there is element of luck, but it is not pure luck. it is combination of luck and intuition.
The killer that are strong in DBD are strong because they force you to guess on their gameplay. They play a mindgame on top of regular dbd gameplay loop. One of key details behind mindgames is that they create an illusion of lose/lose situation, not that situation is lose/lose. it just looks like lose/lose situation. there is suppose to be always a correct play. It is just difficult to always do the correct play because principal of mindgames is revolves around a lack of information to make correct play every time. If you could see your opponent hand every time, you'd win every card game but that is whole challenge."
- There is no skill in blind guessing... Because what blind guessing means is without having any information that could lead you to assume one or another thing you just guess... That's why it is just like tossing a coin... Pure luck, no skill.
- Poker is a terrible example... In poker you know how many cards are in the set, you know which cards are played and calculate which cards you haven't seen and which card combination would beat yours, therefore you can calculate the probability of winning or loosing and play accordingly to that... In addition you can try to read your opponents if they have tells... Let's say we have a player with a very obvious tell.. When he has a bad set of cards he touches his left ear... You can now try to read into that tell when he is touching his ear... But what your opponent can do know is touch his ear when he has good cards to throw you off... Both players can make assumptions based on the give information... The player touching his ear is trying to make you believe he has bad cards, therefore he is trying to mindgame you... Such an obvious example is for sure not gonna happen in pro poker tournaments I assume... But I hope you finally get what a mindgame is... If you still don't understand then I guess hope is lost....
- Regular DBD includes many mindgames... Since otherwise you would only every follow the exact same path the survivor took... Doubling back, moonwalking, red light mindgame, coming from a different angle and so on .... those are all mindgames that are regularly used by players, not even necessarily good players...
The killers that are strong in DBD will put you in a loose loose situation if mastered... You can only delay them for so long... Nurse does not need mindgames, she can just run straight on top of you... Spirit with mother daughter ring does not need mindgames, because she is so fast she can just catch you regardless and so on... I think you just don't understand how this game works at that point and for some reason don't even question your beliefs even with that massive amount of information that proves it wrong... Sad to be so delusional... :/
I would also like to quote the video I posted above:
"You can try to win those pallets (non god pallets in this game it was crane and shack, the pallets at jungle gyms are not god pallets against spirit), you're not gonna win, this is a top tier spirit, you're not gonna win those pallets. It's incredibly hard, you might think like "argh why are the survivors not winning this?" You're not supposed to win this." That is around 9:25 min in the game with two yellow addons... So if you really think Spirit is not in controll of the chase you're just wrong...
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@Gandor said:
Mindgame is about deception also in DBD. I have no idea why random chance should be mindgame. Random chance is luck. Mindgame is not about luck. In fact best mindgames are 100% about reactions and 0% about luck. And by reactions I don't mean just 1 side. I mean both sides reacting to something the other side did. This is mind game. Not guessing on which side of a pallet by 0 input I will stay. That is pure guessing and 0% mindgame
Agreed but apparently words have a different meaning for the guy...
@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3268911#Comment_3268911
every word in language often has context and in the context of real life, Mindgame is more synonym of the word Deception which is act of deceiving another person which if we expand word deceiving. It is something along lines of making someone believe something that is false/untrue which is what you are posting.
Mindgame in the context of DBD is not deception. We are not playing town of salem or original name, Mafia. Its not game about deceiving. In the context of dbd, when player refer to a mindgame, its related to predicting what the opponent will do before they do it with minimal/no information.
I also do not understand all these scottjund because.... these scottjund videos are textbook example of... how not play vs spirit. Man, I hate the whole balance around -bad- survivor players mentality. This whole thing he is talking about does not work vs good survivors..... you hear directional where spirit is phasing. in other words. you know exactly her precise location every second. that is why she has no dust clouds because who needs dust clouds with directional audio cue, the audio cue is better then seeing the killer with wall-hacks. you slide pallets on reaction. there is no mindgames. I went to search old video to showcase this. tru3 showcases this on ptb.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoxYLiP7iLE&t=14s
As you can see, he can track spirit on the hill perfectly and shack pallet perfectly which applies to all pallets in the game. This is what I mean that spirit has no mindgames because its all reaction and reaction are not mindgames. they are... reactions.
the problem there is the general lack of information about old spirits power and deathslingers quick scoping... Since you had 0 information and there was not really a comparable situation to other games played against the killer because you could never see what exactly they did...
This is wrong. you do have general information. Deathslinger is going to shoot at some point, you need figure out at what point he is going to shoot and Spirit is going phase and you need figure out her routing to neutralized effectiveness of phasing. that is entire mindgame behind their ability. this is entire point of their mindgame.
You can basically never know when billy is gonna start his chainsaw sprint because he can feather it... So once again this is a terrible example... A mindgame needs the intention to trick the other person by presenting them a specific set of information whether that information is true or false cannot be verified by the survivor easily
that is literally billy's mindgame. you don't know when he is going release the chainsaw and you do not know where he is going to aim. you just know he is going to use it. you have to guess what trajectory the billy will use his chainsaw. that is same mindgame that victor has with his pounce. you know he is going to use pounce, you don't know where the player will aim it, you need guess where the player will aim it and you wiggle while moving as forward as possible to make it as difficult as possible to land the hit.
With current billy, he charges his chainsaw too slowly and he walks too slowly to curve because the survivor is always going to be perfectly 180-degree's from billy's position. that is just how looping works. He can't walk to correct position to curve because survivor can always walk to correct edge of the loop to avoid curve. As a result, there is no mindgame. its just reacting to where billy walks. this whole current counter-play is Line of sight+Reactions and as I said, Line of sight+Reaction /= is not mindgames.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/AE221LTL1SWD/image.png
what made him good before is that he could rotate loop by walking as 115% m/s killer and dynamically curve around loop. you could not line of sight billy, you needed to predict when he releases his chainsaw and where he dashes with his chainsaw. it created interesting mindgames at loops.
The definition of a blind guess is that you have 0 information about the outcome and you just throw a coin and hope for the best... You cannot learn that...
there is skill in blind guessing. I mean Poker is great example of a game based off guessing your opponent cards, the incoming cards on the board which are known as flop, the turn and river. Some player win a lot and other player lose all the time. There is skill-cap behind guessing correctly more often then being wrong. you can never be fully correct because there is element of luck, but it is not pure luck. it is combination of luck and intuition.
The killer that are strong in DBD are strong because they force you to guess on their gameplay. They play a mindgame on top of regular dbd gameplay loop. One of key details behind mindgames is that they create an illusion of lose/lose situation, not that situation is lose/lose. it just looks like lose/lose situation. there is suppose to be always a correct play. It is just difficult to always do the correct play because principal of mindgames is revolves around a lack of information to make correct play every time. If you could see your opponent hand every time, you'd win every card game but that is whole challenge.
"Mindgame in the context of DBD is not deception. We are not playing town of salem or original name, Mafia. Its not game about deceiving. In the context of dbd, when player refer to a mindgame, its related to predicting what the opponent will do before they do it with minimal/no information."
No it is not... You give someone a certain information and assume they will react accordingly to it base upon that you do the opposite of what you made them think is gonna happen... That's exactly what a mindgame is in DBD.
"I also do not understand all these scottjund because.... these scottjund videos are textbook example of... how not play vs spirit. Man, I hate the whole balance around -bad- survivor players mentality. This whole thing he is talking about does not work vs good survivors..... you hear directional where spirit is phasing. in other words. you know exactly her precise location every second. that is why she has no dust clouds because who needs dust clouds with directional audio cue, the audio cue is better then seeing the killer with wall-hacks. you slide pallets on reaction. there is no mindgames. I went to search old video to showcase this. tru3 showcases this on ptb."
How is it balancing around bad survivors... A good or a bad survivor had to guess in the exact same way and the skill did not matter as they could not use their skill to process the given information since ther was just no information given at all... Also he was saying that when staying in the way he described the difference was so narrow that you could not necessarily pin point her exactly ...
First of all this is probably one of the most clickbait titles ever... Spirit is not dead at high level... Having to break two pallets a map does not kill spirit... And I love the assumption of balancing around bad players when this spirit is constantly loosing him and not being able to keep track of where he actually goes...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIiGws6MTwkThis is a far better example of spirit performing in high level... We a team of comp players playing against a comp spirit and oh my god who would have thought spirit is still able to perform really well... The spirit is one of the best spirit players in comp and the survivors are team Eternal... The best comp team at the moment... The whole point is even if you know where the spirit is it does not really matter as she moves so fast during her power that she can catch you regardless of you knowing where she is... That's exactly what happens in this spirit showcase... It does not matter if the survivor messes up because most tiles are just not safe against spirit especially when she is not going in addonless... And when you hear her rotating in one direction you need to act accordingly to that... unless you can just leave the tile entirely and go to the next one... But that risks that she will catch you in the open without any safety...
Mindgames play around reactions... you want them to react in a certain way... and then change to doing something different which puts them in a bad spot because they assumed the killer was coming from a different direction...
"This is wrong. you do have general information. Deathslinger is going to shoot at some point, you need figure out at what point he is going to shoot and Spirit is going phase and you need figure out her routing to neutralized effectiveness of phasing. that is entire mindgame behind their ability. this is entire point of their mindgame."
No he is not gonna shoot you necessarily... If you just wiggle around and don't go anywhere he can just M1 you without the need to use his power at all... And even if he was guaranteed to shoot you at some point... What does it matter? It does not narrow it down to give you anything to work with...
The whole point of a mindgame is to force a wrong reaction... That's the entire thing... How can one be so stubborn to not understand that...
"there is skill in blind guessing. I mean Poker is great example of a game based off guessing your opponent cards, the incoming cards on the board which are known as flop, the turn and river. Some player win a lot and other player lose all the time. There is skill-cap behind guessing correctly more often then being wrong. you can never be fully correct because there is element of luck, but it is not pure luck. it is combination of luck and intuition.
The killer that are strong in DBD are strong because they force you to guess on their gameplay. They play a mindgame on top of regular dbd gameplay loop. One of key details behind mindgames is that they create an illusion of lose/lose situation, not that situation is lose/lose. it just looks like lose/lose situation. there is suppose to be always a correct play. It is just difficult to always do the correct play because principal of mindgames is revolves around a lack of information to make correct play every time. If you could see your opponent hand every time, you'd win every card game but that is whole challenge."
- There is no skill in blind guessing... Because what blind guessing means is without having any information that could lead you to assume one or another thing you just guess... That's why it is just like tossing a coin... Pure luck, no skill.
- Poker is a terrible example... In poker you know how many cards are in the set, you know which cards are played and calculate which cards you haven't seen and which card combination would beat yours, therefore you can calculate the probability of winning or loosing and play accordingly to that... In addition you can try to read your opponents if they have tells... Let's say we have a player with a very obvious tell.. When he has a bad set of cards he touches his left ear... You can now try to read into that tell when he is touching his ear... But what your opponent can do know is touch his ear when he has good cards to throw you off... Both players can make assumptions based on the give information... The player touching his ear is trying to make you believe he has bad cards, therefore he is trying to mindgame you... Such an obvious example is for sure not gonna happen in pro poker tournaments I assume... But I hope you finally get what a mindgame is... If you still don't understand then I guess hope is lost....
- Regular DBD includes many mindgames... Since otherwise you would only every follow the exact same path the survivor took... Doubling back, moonwalking, red light mindgame, coming from a different angle and so on .... those are all mindgames that are regularly used by players, not even necessarily good players...
The killers that are strong in DBD will put you in a loose loose situation if mastered... You can only delay them for so long... Nurse does not need mindgames, she can just run straight on top of you... Spirit with mother daughter ring does not need mindgames, because she is so fast she can just catch you regardless and so on... I think you just don't understand how this game works at that point and for some reason don't even question your beliefs even with that massive amount of information that proves it wrong... Sad to be so delusional... :/
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"Are you honestly comparing the entity blocking windows after 3 vaults and Bamboozle?"
I'm just saying they somewhat have the same purpose... To deal with strong windows... Sure bamboozle is way more strict than the entity blocker and I never said it is the same, I just meant that they exist because of the same issue. I don't think you should generalize it like that... Just because something is a perk does not mean it is necessarily a bad idea to implement it as basekit... That depends on the strenght of the perk and the weakness it has... But just because it is a perk it cannot be basekit is just a bad argument and does not take the concrete cirumstances into account.
I think Bond and Kindred are good ideas as they will simply bring SoloQ and SWF closer together and that is more like balancing and less of a buff to survivor in general as SWF with coms already have that kind of information. And I think that it is a good thing that the community is loud about what functions they wish to be in the game... Like before don't look at the perk itself but look at what benefit they want... They want aura reading so they can play efficient in a way that players with communications already can... As it is rather frustrating when several people go for the same thing even though one person would have been enough if you only knew earlier... To serve that purpose they are, as far as I know, implementing UI information what the survivors are doing... Serves the purpose somewhat fine I think. We need to consider the underlying problem and not just the perk...
Stbfl does not really serve a purpose that counteracts a bad game design choice... It just shortens chases... So I don't really think it should be basekit... Just like Enduring should not be base... Some perks try to negate bad game design choices and others don't that's why I want to look closely what the issue is and not just ignore something because it exists as a perk already.
As for the corrupt intervention base I already suggested some form of early game collapse... As this would fit the purpose of setup killers without making strong chase killers ridiculously overpowered. Once again Corrupt Intervention helps killers that have a slow start and need to setup first and don't want survivors to instantly get on gens... I think on some killers it is either corrupt intervention or lethal pursuer depending on how much time you take for a down or if you need to setup... Corrupt Intervention: Myers, Hag, Trapper, Oni, Nemesis; Lethal Pursuer: Nurse, Blight and so on. And because of the differences in why they need the perk and I wanted the mechanic to have a downside of loosing it instantly once you started the first chase... (The perk in the sense of the early game collapse, not the kind of corrupt that is in the game right now)
Regression perks also don't really counter an inherent game design flaw... They're more to compensate the game going too fast on a subjective base. Although I do like the idea of some form of overcharge being added to a normal kick... Not the skill check but the increasing progression loss... It would not even be that much... Just to give the survivors an incentive to keep track of the gens progression more constantly... You see I would like to have the base mechanics to have some more depth instead of only having perks for that.
I feel like Windows of Opportunity is more like a getting to know the map kind of perk that you don't really have to rely on after some time... I would really like it to be a basic perk instead of being tied to a character just because newer players mostly use it and people who have more hours don't really need it anymore... But only then will probably aquire it... I don't necessarily want it basekit... But if it was to be basekit I would probably put it on a cooldown so you basically get a quick look around to where the nearest tile is when chase starts and from then on you need to be able to figure out where to go... But like I said... I think that could also be fine as it is...
"Also some perks synergize quite well with each other. Best example Kindred + Open Handed. This combination would be absolutely unfair if it didn't require 2 perks. There are quite a few equivalents on killer side as well and this will only increase as new perks are added to the game."
Would it though? You gain aura reading within 32 m of the hooked person... and see the other survivors... SWF in coms already has the ability to know the position of every survivor... I don't see how it would be absolutely unfair... I mean sure you could eventually loop a killer in that area and have constant aura reading on him... But this could be easily countered by just removing the aura reading for the survivor that is currently being chased... I don't see that perk combination as that problematic... Also if you loop the killer during that radius you basically make him proxy camp the hooked person, which is really not the optimal thing to do xD But feel free elaborate further on why it would be unfair.
For the basekit unbreakable... The way the whole thing presented itself on the ptb was somewhat questionable... But I also see it as a problem when a survivor gets slugged for quite some time... I mean sure you can just tab out and do something else while the killer tries to get his 4k ... But that is at the risk of griefing your teammate who might be there to pick you up... So actually having something t do while getting slugged seems like an ok thing to... The Option to counter slugging in that form should also take into account going down under pallets and so on, I think we can agree on that part at least... But I also think that there should be something for the slugged survivor to do while he is waiting the 4 or 5 minutes? or whatever it is it takes to bleed out... I mean... that's just unfun to stay on the ground with more and more crows and basically nothing you can do... If you're in that position you just know it sucks, but as it is there is not much you can do about it... Oh and the constant 22 seconds pick up was way too much of an increase... But you also don't get slugged every game... So it would probably not be a problem overall... I don't like it in that form. But what do you think would be a good countermeasure for being slugged for quite some time?
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@Emeal said:
I rather like the ideas I seen suggested before, cut the dream snares, give him dream pallets as basic ability and give him also a fake generator to trick Survivors with. Would improve the game 3000% imo
The problem with dream pallets is that the only thing they do is trick the survivor to run to a tile that is actually not safe... But it does not do anything against windows... And everything else is just basic M1 killer gameplay... If we needed to change his basepower I would rather have him pull survivors into the dream and then applying some stuff to it but also make them sleep by hitting them... But not like old fredy with his ridiculous slowdown... More dreamspecific things... Like everything beyond 30 m changes constantly to make the survivor confused about the map... the dream generator is a great idea, I just don't really know what counter measure there could be because if there was none it would be just like old freddy with massive slowdown.. I'd rather have it be like a 20-30 second delay until they realize... His teleport is fine so I would like to keep that... Maybe make him stronger the more people are in a dream? So you gain passive slowdown because they will have to got to the clocks constantly?
- Fake generator power that lasts until 10-15 % are completed and then just dissolves?
- While in the dream beyond a certain range (of maybe 30m) the map constantly changes to confuse survivors
- Survivors can be pulled into the dream or hit to be in it... Pulling them in takes a few seconds
- The more people are asleep the more power freddy has... Not to overpower him but just to make him have a form of passive slowdown... (Maybe the time it takes to succesfully teleport? Or even give him specific powers with 2/3 or more survivors asleep... Also put a cooldown on the clocks so they cannot play to reckless and make the wake up survivor thing only last like 20-30 seconds max so you can only temporarily remove his power but need to go to a clock eventually
- Since I'm not familiar with the character lore wise I don't really know what would be a fitting power... So maybe to make the above mentioned traps more viable they could become some sort of skill shot where you use it similiar to nurses blink or Pinheads Chains but you can move during it, but are slowed down by quite a bit... So just like current traps you move while channeling it but the long you hold it the further it moves, also taking into account looking up or down... And when you actually cast it after a short delay of less than 1 second it activates and when somebody stands inside of it they get slowed quite a lot... I would make it an AOE effect with a radius of maybe 1.5-2m and an activation delay that makes it so you can still run out of it when you are at the edges but will get hit if it is aimed somewhat accurate... Not entirely sure how to balance it exactly... So if you're really precise you can flick it to hit the survivor and as soon as it is casted for the duration of the activation delay the survivor can also see it so they could potentially run out of it if they are at the edges of the effect... Just like Pinhead I would like it to have a rather short cooldown but you're slowed down or at least cannot use your m1 for a few seconds if it didn't land just so you cannot just brainlessly spam it and therefore make the survivor not gain distance and get a hit regardless of you using your power properly...
That's quite a lot I think and might even overbuff him... But I think we could work with that... This also opens up a lot of options to change the addons around.
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"so how is that any different with other killer powers when killer guess wrong? When I guess wrong, I get long chases as killer and lose. When survivor guess wrong, they get short chases. its fair interaction."
I have no clue what you are even trying to say with that?
A mindgame is by definition the attempt to trick someone into believing that a specific thing is gonna happen and act according to that specific thing just to do something else and throw them of by doing it this way... Therefore you need some form of interaction with which you make the other person mistakenly believing that you're going to do a certain thing. By hiding your light you generally intend to make them believe you changed direction... This can however be a double mindgame where you combine it with moonwalking... The survivor now has to act accordingly to what he think the killer is going to do... This is by definition a mind game. Yes curving is really hard to pull off against good players... But the back and forth around the loop against a Billy is basically the survivor acting accordingly to the billys movement... Billy only works on survivor mistakes... When he could get the survivor to place themselves poorly he can curve them.
The chess example is terrible... Chess has much to do with possibilitys each specific moves opens up a large number of further moves the player can do, based upon the playstyle of the player. Even in chess there can be mindgames where one person cannot be sure if the other one wants them to make a specific move, maybe it is a bait, maybe they just made a mistake... Trying to make someone make a preemptive move by baiting them is a common mind game to pull off...
You can basically never know when billy is gonna start his chainsaw sprint because he can feather it... So once again this is a terrible example... A mindgame needs the intention to trick the other person by presenting them a specific set of information whether that information is true or false cannot be verified by the survivor easily... Let's for example take old billy... chainsaw without addons is 2.5 seconds with both addons 1.6 seconds... If billy starts revving his saw and starts the sprint at 2.6 seconds you have no clue if he has a faster chainsaw or not... All you can do is blind guess... A prediction usually needs some form of information on which the prediction is based and which is evaluated... And at the same time Billy has complete control over where is gonna aim his chainsaw just like huntress or nurse can flick just before using their power... You can only make an educated guess that they're probably gonna launch their power in the direction they are currently facing... Which is more than a blind guess but can still be wrong.
If you have watched the spirit showcase video that I posted from Hens you can see that the spirit does not have to predict where the survivor is... A good spirit knows exactly where the survivor is while phasing... Both survivor and killer have an somewhat accurate idea of where the other one currently is... The point that makes a mindgame possible in this situation is doubling back... When the spirit chases the survivor around the loop in one direction the survivor will run away from her in the other direction... When the spirit doubles back the survivor can adjust shortly after... and by changing the way she is going around the loop she can bring the survivor into a position from where he cannot reach the pallet before spirit can hit them... For further information on mindgaming with current spirit:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95MMF04erLoThe safe loop argument is somewhat invalid as I said before, loops that are safe against normal killers are not necessarily safe against spirit... Since she moves so fast at Wreckers Yard for example there are two safe loops against spirit and that's shack with pallet and the crane... That's all... Any other tile is not safe against spirit. If a loop is safe or not depends on the killer not necessarily on the loop so that's where you wrong there buddy. Shack can be safe against M1 killers but is very unsafe against many others like Wesker, Huntress or Demogorgon.
"The frustration of reading this post drives me wild. Oh man. your not suppose to react the shot.... your suppose predict when he is about to shoot and dodge at very last mili-second. For how small his harpoon gun spear is (hitbox-wise), wiggling vs slinger's gun right now, he has greater odds to miss long ranges shot then hits shots. You can almost react to deathslinger's gun and side-step outside of his harpoon gun on reaction. Its so stupid for slinger at the moment. And this wind-up thing with huntress hatchets does not matter either other then increasing the odds for huntress to suffer from Line of sight(LOS) issues. thank goodness that wind-up add-on exist to make this less of pain. Once again, its suppose to be about mindgaming.... and anticipation."
With no indication of when the player is going to shoot you once again have no idea... So you are again just blind guessing... No skill involved there you toss a coin and if you by chance guessed correctly you'll not get hit otherwise you will... It is that easy. To anticipate a certain action you need to have a hint that something is going to happen... When a huntress is winding up her hatchet you can try to react to the shot that will follow soon... But with slinger just chasing you normally and randomly quick shooting you there is just nothing you can do but blindly guessing when he is going to shoot. Every pvp game is somewhat about action and reaction... You play a game, aquire the skills to improve and then try reacting accordingly to what the other person is doing... That works in RTS, Chess or whatever game you're basically playing... In RTS for example you can pull off great mindgames... I'll use starcraft 2 as an example here: If you build the tech building that is required for invisible units and make the enemy spot it he will probably react to that by building something that grants him invisibility detection... If you had the plan from the beginning to just trick him into building detection without wanting to actually build invisible units you have succesfully mindgamed him into doing that. You have given him a certain information to which he reacted in the way you expected him and used that to your advantage. That is the core of any mindgame... You give the other party misinformation and let them act the way you planned for and then benefit from it.
"what you learn over-time as playing survivor is knowing how to guess and when to guess. Also how to avoid guessing when it is not necessary to guess. your looking for how to loop killer for 5 generators every game consistently. "
But if you were able to learn how to guess it would not be a blind guess anymore... The definition of a blind guess is that you have 0 information about the outcome and you just throw a coin and hope for the best... You cannot learn that... You can maybe try to predict by taking into account what people usually do in a certain situation... But then again the problem there is the general lack of information about old spirits power and deathslingers quick scoping... Since you had 0 information and there was not really a comparable situation to other games played against the killer because you could never see what exactly they did...
Predicting something that has no indication that it will happen soon is purely luck based... If you are sitting in front of your computer and at some point with no warning beforehand it will just explode... How do you predict when it will happen? It's simple: You can't and exactly like that you could not react to old spirit hitting you with her power or slinger insta shooting you. You had 0 information when it was about to happen and therefore could only select a random moment purely by chance at which you thought it would happen... But it is nothing but luck... Nothing you did had impact on the outcome of the decision... And this is exactly what people don't want in video games... They want the decisions they make to have an impact on the outcome.
I would even go as far as to say it is not only the definition of a mindgame that the community has... But it is a general definition:
Once again: "Actions intended to mislead someone else, often to gain advantage for oneself"
By hiding his red light behind a high wall the killer tries to mislead you into thinking he changed directions to gain an advantage and hit you. This is by common definition a mindgame: You present false information and capitalize on the other side believing the false information to be true, and this can only be achieved by actually presenting information.
This is basically the definition of mindgame the whole world uses... I browsed a few dictionary websites and they all came up with basically this... So if you like this definition or not does not matter since everybody else uses the word in that sense, therefore I can simply say your definition of mindgame is wrong as it does not mean what the word actually means and how it is used by everybody else.
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@TheSubstitute said:
I'm confused as to your reasoning. Why would Killers as a whole need basekit perks instead of buffs to individual Killers like Trapper? Individual Killers may have it rough but Killers, as a whole, are in a good spot.
Also a good point.... But it would seem odd to only give trapper Corrupt... And I don't really know what to do otherwise to give him time to setup his traps without 3-4 gens popping immediatly... Being able to grab traps from lockers would be a good start though... So at least you don't need to run around the entire map. Maybe just give every killer a form of corrupt that blocks every gen until they enter the first chase/loose a health state by any means or something like that? Killers that have to setup would greatly benefit and good chase killers would basically immediatly loose that advantage... This idea was known as early game collapse or something like that... And the Devs didn't go through with it sadly...