Archol123
Archol123
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@Zephinism said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3266971#Comment_3266971
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/YLT6GOEBEODD/microsoftteams-image-2875-29.png
Top 5% mmr.
Completely unplayable. mhm.
I would like to differentiate here... Because on one side the top 5% killer perform well on every killer: true. But on the other side at a high level lower tier killers just dont work: also true. let me explain.
As matchmaking is currently with how far the mmr range is even when you are a top 5% mmr killer you will still get matched with so many player far below your skill that those lower tier killer are still viable, but when you don't play via normal matchmaking and try to play the killer against some really good players or face the 1 in 1 Million comp squad you will probably get rolled...
The problem is now with a large majority of players just not being that good that even low tier killers are still viable against them... And at the same time I'm not sure how to keep a killer balanced vs comp players and vs your average survivors at the same time that is...
So in short... Low tier killers are not viable against really good players, but you basically never encounter really good survivor players in normal matchmaking anyway so it does not really matter too much...
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@Xernoton said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3268790#Comment_3268790
You ask for the benefits of a perk, not balance changes! That is a difference. Killers didn't get Bamboozle base kit as you stated and I am by no means against balance changes. Just this whole "Ohh, I don't want to run that perk every single match but I also don't want to give up it's benefits. Base kit plz."
I would also like to add that you already gave a good reason to why some things that were perks should be basekit... When someone feels basically forced to run a perk every single game, because otherwise it just becomes so annoying to face certain things... Then you have probably encountered an issue that needs to be fixed in some way... If it is by giving a perk basekit or introducing some new mechanic does not really matter at that point...
Besides that... There are not really that many perks people wanted basekit? BT, Unbreakable, some even said something about DS... Especially in it's nerfed form I think DS could be alright just to prevent tunneling even more... Because you have to see it from another perspective as well... Even if the person who has DS or basekit ds desperately tries to make you go for them they cannot progress the game in any form without loosing ds and being vulnerable... I don't really want DS to become basekit... But I would like some mechanics that prevent killers from effectively tunneling or camping, because I think both are unhealthy for the game... Yeah sure you could argue killer should get something else to counter it... But then it should be some incentive to spread hooks more... How about some variation of grim embrace that activates once when all 4 survivors got hooked once and a second time when all 4 survivors got hooked twice... And maybe give it another condition to prevent something unfun like camping someone to second stage and having all gens blocked for the entire duration until they are dead... Perhaps if you stay too close to the hooked survivor(that triggered the effect) the effect just ends... and then of course something else to prevent tunneling and camping... For example introduce the cage teleport mechanic for hooks... Standing too close to a hook for some while just teleports them to the opposite side of the map... goodbye facecamping...
Like I said before you surely could make the same changes by introducing some gameplay mechanic that is not already a perk... But when you can basically just make it a permanent solution why would you make all the effort in figuring out something completely new...
We should focus more on why the effect of a certain perk should become basekit: What unhealthy/unfun/unwanted thing does this specific perk help against... And after we know the issue we can figure out a way to change it... If that is by making a perk basekit or something completely different should not really matter... This way if the perk just helps you in general... Like free exhaustion perk because why not or something like that we can easier disregard it than by just generally stating that the game is fine as it is and does not need any more base mechanics...
How about a base mechanic where the survivor can reset a destroyed totem to become a dull totem again? Takes 40 seconds or so...
Pro:
- Something the survivors can do that is not the main objective
- if your teammate cleansed every totem on the map but you really want to use that boon again it may take some time but you would be able to do it
- When already every totem on the map is broken but you suspect the killer to have pentimento you still can do something about it
Contra:
- 5 stacks of pentimento is already hard to aquire and it would basically be impossible to ever reach it again
- Making team mistakes salvageable rather easy puts the killer at a disadvantage as he cannot profit as easily from that as before
- Maybe even more boons on the map you have to kick....
So there is two sides to everything but when the benefits are greater then we should not just disregard it because it is already accesable as a perk...
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@Xernoton said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3268790#Comment_3268790
You ask for the benefits of a perk, not balance changes! That is a difference. Killers didn't get Bamboozle base kit as you stated and I am by no means against balance changes. Just this whole "Ohh, I don't want to run that perk every single match but I also don't want to give up it's benefits. Base kit plz."
When the benefit is that it counters an unhealthy gameplay mechanic... That neither the players nor the developers want in their game what exactly is the issue then?
The way of implementing a perk as basekit is only one way to deal with the problem...
For infinite windows you could either remove them entirely or just give killers bamboozle or some other perk that blocks the window... That's the reason entity blocker got introduced, but it never was a perk... So just because something was a perk at first and got introduced as base mechanic later does not mean it is not a balance change anyway...
The same goes for bt basekit... They wanted survivors to not get downed straight after unhooking just because their teammate did not bring bt as it is an unfun gameplay mechanic... So there were several options:
- Remove collision of the survivor that just got unhooked and make them unhittable for a specific amount of time (so they cannot bodyblock for someone else but can reach a safe tile
- Give them BT basekit... (way easier to implement, so I guess that's why they went for it, but has the downside of survivors being able to bodyblock and tank a hit... But at that point you don't have to feel bad for going for them again)
- Probably a lot of other things people thought would be a good idea that I did not hear of though
If people want stuff to be basekit that is healthy for the gameplay or want some mechanics basekit that are not implemented as a perk yet... Where is the difference for you? Why does it matter if it is already a perk? When it being a perk is just not enough for the cause... It just should not be required to run a specific perk constantly just so you don't have to face some things...
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The point is when there is something unwanted or unhealthy in the game design it needs improvement... And just because a mild form of improving the situation is already provided in the form of a perk does not mean it should stay that way... What did killers get for removing old facecamping where you could literally stand in the hook and block the unhook prompt? What did survivors get when the killers got the ability to kick gens? You should not look at it as a fifth perk slot when it is mainly about game health... If you think camping and tunneling and slugging are unhealthy game mechanics that you don't want in your game at all you need to be able to do something about it and if you think a perk is not enough for that matter what else are you gonna do but make it basekit? I mean sure if it also buffs the other side in a certain way... that is not the result of the killer or survivor still doing the unwanted thing... then we could balance around the game in the changed state...
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@Xernoton said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3268776#Comment_3268776
What difference does that make? Think about what happens when you get your will and we add "stuff that is currently only availabe in the form of perks" and make it base kit. You still basically have a 5th perk by default. Next step would be survivors asking for something in return (and with good reason in that regard). Then killers would ask for the next thing because another issue occurs more commonly as survivors will find a way to benefit from their base kit changes in unforseen ways and the cycle repeats.
Ok... for what reason did old infinite windows get removed? You could have just used bamboozle instead?
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@Xernoton said:
The only perk killers should get base kit is shadowborn. Seriously, what's with the FOV in this game?
Other than that, please stop asking for base kit perks. We have limited perk slots for a reason.
It's not about perks for free it is more about improving the game by providing stuff that is currently only available in the form of perks...
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@jacam007 said:
I don't think Freddy has been buffed officially in the past year or so in Dead by Daylight and its' quite surprising considering he used to actually be meta. I don't think any Killer in this game should be put on a meta scale to determine if their viable - all the Killers need in my opinion is versatility. If a Killer has a power that's versatile and can be used for multiple purposes, I think you've got a good power at that point. (without fine tuning)
So when I look at Freddy, I get really disappointed. Not because he's 'weak' - moreso that his power is one-sided that allows such boring gameplay loops. It's very similar to Artist in chase, she plops her birds down to counter going x, y, z tile and she pushes the Survivor into the Bird (plus she can snipe Survivors, so she has that going for her). Which... can get boring but Freddy somehow makes that... MUCH more boring which is honestly impressive.
You loop a Survivor, but instead of placing Birds, you place these circular debuffs. So not only is the traps restricted to a placement system but the only thing the Dream Snares actually do are goes as follows: Scream, Hindered (15%) and... that's it. So you got a Killer with a trap-based power... but you place the traps mid-chase instead of pre-arming them. Which is super boring in my opinion. Let me get into the buffs already:
General Buffs:
* The Nightmare's Terror Radius decreased from 32 meters to 20 meters
One of the things I've never understood about The Nightmare specifically is that when Survivors are awake, they nerf the Killer...? What other Killer in the game has a power.... where the Survivors have control whether or not how threatening the Killer is instantly. I've never understood this design philosophy. The Killer should have benefits and not just benefits but massive benefits if they essentially have NO power - Even more-so if the Survivors can strip the Killer. So with this change, Survivors need to be extremely aware of their surroundings as their essentially versing an Onryo/Huntress hybrid. Where the approach is small and The Nightmare from a distance can only be seen from a limited distance. That way, he can actually land his first hit with relative ease, where he puts the Survivor asleep to where he can then... FINALLY use his power.
* The Nightmare's movement speed while arming Dream Snares is increased from 4.0m/s to 4.2m/s
This is just a feels-good change. It's not going to massively change how he plays, but I've always found it odd how he loses distance by using his Power. I agree, he should lose distance, but.... the distance he loses is WAY too restrictive.
Dream Snare Buffs
* Upon the triggering of Dream Snares, the Survivor screams and is Hindered(70%) in place. They have to hold Mouse 1 to escape which takes 1.5 seconds to escape a Dream Snare (Animation is similar to Pinhead break animation from Chains). In the time their hindered in place, the Survivor cannot perform the following: Vault, Repair a generator, Heal, Cleanse a totem or open an Exit Gate. Additionally, after the triggering of a Dream Snare and escaping, it lingers in place for 10 seconds, anybody that steps on it Screams which interrupts all actions for 1 seconds(Like Vaulting, Repairing a generator, Healing, Cleansing a totem or the opening of an Exit Gate) on an interval of 2 seconds.
I'll split these new mechanics into sections so its' much easier to understand what's happening:
1). The first new mechanic is the initial trigger of the Dream Snare. Where the Survivor instantly screams and is Hindered massively. They need to hold Mouse 1 to escape for a total of 1.5 seconds. This is a similar mechanic to Pinhead's chains but is tied to the Snares instead. If the Survivor gets hit while in the Snare but they DON'T break there way through, they will lose all of their speed boost they would have had. Which is quite devastating. The Hindered is tied directly to the break-lose interaction, so the second the 1.5secs is done, the Survivor no longer is Hindered by 70%. As a final note, this massive slowdown is only inflicted to the Survivor that initially triggered the Trap.
2). The second unique effect is that the Snare makes ANY sleeping Survivor after the initial trigger, Scream. They scream for 1 second, on an interval of 2 seconds. But what's unique is that this scream is similar to Doctor's scream where all actions are disallowed. Yes, all actions. because of the fact that the Snare now lasts 10 seconds in lingering. The Scream lasts just 1 second as this effect is way more stronger than it seems on paper. Finally, I DID NOT include interrupting the action of dropping Pallets as that would be way to strong and would kind-of pigeon hole the Snares onto only being placed on top of undropped Pallets.
Tell me your thoughts on these changes! I know Freddy can use ALOT more unique buffs like buffing his Dream World to making it more unique. I'll save that for another time though. :) Thanks for reading!
I don't agree with the terror radius reduction to 20 m... 24 or 28 are the minimum... Otherwise with monitor you'll turn him into a stealth killer... And that would be kind of weird...
The 4.0m/s while placing snares does not loose you distance... Survivors also move at 4.0 m/s ... I mean sure you could change it, but it would not effect anything...
70% for 1.5 seconds is way too overtuned dude... This would basically guarantee you a hit at every strong tile if the survivors cannot dodge the snare, and if they can you'll probably get a hit as well just because of the huge way they had to take around it... Also I think when you get hit you automatically loose pinheads chains? Because also in that part this is way too much... The speed boost only lasts for 1.8 seconds... If don't realize it fast enough you'll basically go down instantly...
I mean sure, the general idea seems cool... But the numbers are just way too high...The reason freddy fell from grace is because now his addons are completely useless... There is not a single good addon... His basekit however does not really need much change...
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Sure, why not, it will still not be a good perk but there's no argument against buffing it... Usually neither you or the people you get matched with miss skillchecks a lot, but when playing with friends who are new it can be nice.
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@SweetbutaPsycho said:
During these last couple of weeks I had so many games where survivors tell me afterwards that they will report me for hacking. Its mostly more inexperienced survivors with less hours but it still makes me nervous that apparently everything that happens that doesnt make sense to them is immidiately traced back to hacking and they report you for it.
Had this game right now on larrys with sadako where noone was running iron will and everyone was just sprinting around leaving scratch marks and blood everywhere. Also when I port to a TV their pictures light up on the left side when they are close to it. Also I have 2k hours in this game and can pretty much guess where survivors are on most maps.
After the match they complained that I apparently always knew where they are and that I must be clearly hacking. None of the above explanations was accepted by them and according to them they all 4 went ahead and reported me for hacking. This isnt the first time this happened in the last weeks, had a couple of games where I was reported for hacking afterwards. Very good huntress throws: reported for hacking; finding someone with legion in a locker during frenzy: reported for hacking;.......
I'm just wondering if the report system can actually differentiate if you are actually hacking or if it goes: Enough ppl reported you for it so you must be hacking and are hereby banned.
Unless you also make a ticket and so on it basically does nothing if they only report you ingame... Also they look over the footage and stuff to decide... So no, let them just report... They won't ban you if you didn't hack for real... You should always report if you think someone might be hacking... You don't need to be entirely sure... Because someone will look over it... It is not an automated ban system.
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To be more precise... Both engravings, Mothers helpers and lopro chains are good. Dad's Boots and spiked boots are somewhat good... People go both ways about tuned carburettor, some say it is a great addon others say it's complete trash... I myself tend to think it is terrible... His ultra rares are ok at best... and basically only work if you don't play billy to his best... and every other addon is just useless... overheat reduction: trash... Pighouse gloves: great it has only value while you're an m1 killer... survivors will most likely just take the m1 and make distance... why drop a pallet when he cannot use the chainsaw anyway? (unless you're injured) and so on...
(Black grease could be usefull but how often do you get blinded? even if you let yourself get blinded on purpose I don't think it is worth it... And leafy mash is really situational... 15 seconds is way too short... Either you're already close by when the person gets downed then you should be concious about the terror radius suddelny disappearing or you're so far away that he probably won't even reach you in time...In theory it could work with infectious... but I don't know how they interact and also you probably won't down people fast enough to get value out of infectious anway...)
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Currently he has like 4 good addons and another 2-3 okayish ones, and the rest is just useless... I would really have overheat gone for good and give him some more usefull addons... Sure his basekit didn't get touched that much, but even with his remaining addons he is now average or even below average... So like mid to low B or high C tier... And he used to be the 3rd best killer in the game which is kind of sad... And for the addons he used to have I think only Insta saw was an issue the other ones not so much... Billy is probably the hardest killer to master in the game, with blight as a 2nd, but nobody puts in the effort to learn him because there are better alternatives... And I find that really sad as playing against Billy is really fun...
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@Katzengott said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3268261#Comment_3268261
You mean like basekit BT, the solo buff which buffed SWFs aswell?
I mean tunneling is not only a problem solo q people have right? So why would you not? And in general if you decide to tunnel someone out it is pretty fair if it is made harder on you...
I like that they did something about tunneling, but I would just removed collision from the unhooked survivor and give him bt on top... So he can just run away but cannot body block... So that way you cannot abuse it to block... But then again if you really try to block at all cost with your bt you can expect to just get downed again and maybe hooked again and then you really cannot cry about that kind of tunneling.
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@Katzengott said:
Stop with the basekit nonsense. It's just a clusterfix to cover the balance problems, like always.
I mean... making usefull functions as perks and not as basekit of survivor is way more of a bandaid fix than just making it available for everyone and balancing around it...
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3267507#Comment_3267507
When you guess right... When you just got lucky by chance because there was no tell that she was phasing so all you could do was guess.. No skill involved whatsoever...
But your skill did not matter against her... As it was completely irrelevant to guessing right or wrong...
If your skill did not matter at all and it was entirely based off spirit's skill, then why was the chase so long? you would expect every single chase to have exact same duration. You look like your repeating yourself a lot more then I am.
I will die on that hill but I don't think any good killer will miss a survivor because of wiggling... And it is just not skillfull. Once again you're just doing something without any real interaction or goal. You're just hoping for the best without a real plan behind it.
Well I definitely disagree. A survivor with tricky movement is more difficult to hit then a survivor with no movement. Your saying that killer have 100% accuracy on their ability. I would say killers miss their ability more often based off how tricky the surivovor movement is. Having tricky movement does not guaranteed dodging every attack. your only more likely to make the killer miss. I'm sure there are many survivor player that make twin players miss pounces and get victor crushed which results in twin's losing games. I would imagine that being part of why she has low-play rate. very punishing killer to play that requires a lot of macro play and macro game knowledge along with strong degree in micro gameplay for not great rewards. I don't know what to tell you, but difficult to land skillshots+slugging is among highest skill-cap elements on the killer side. Not a very accessible killer in my opinion.
now you can actually mindgame with her... By making the survivor believe you're coming from one way around the loop which makes him start rotating in the opposite direction and then changing your direction which he won't notice immediatly so you can catch him offguard before he can reach the pallet again.
um, no? there are no mindgames with spirit anymore. She is somewhat normal looping killer now. She has directional audio cue. you know exact precise location of the killer. there is no guessing or catching anyone off guard. These days, I can dead hard the spirit attack out of phase-walk and sometimes get pallet stuns on spirits in phase-walk. You can semi-consistently 1vs1 the spirit. I thought that was the whole point of the change?
Why would you think she was more fun to play back then?
I don't know, I just do not think there is mindgames with her anymore. The sense of anticipation and uncertainty in predicting her movement faded away? my conclusion from this conversation is that killers with mindgames-type powers are miserable to play against and not very fun for survivor. Only looping and being in near full control of the chase is fun for survivor. I guess it all add up to why deathslinger and spirit were changed in the same update. such unskillful killers /s.
Once again... Comp players made the spirit also guess... Which is terrible game design by itself... Just both parties are guessing at this point... But the reason why some chases are really long and some end withing 20 seconds is the same with a coin toss... The probability is 50 50 but if you throw the coin often enough there is a high probability that the coin will land in your favor many times in a row but the opposite will also happen very likely... That's just how probability works... So that's why the results where like that... When he guessed right a lot he lived longer when he didn't the chase ended immediatly...
Yeah sure skillshots are hard to land... But skillshots from a distance... not from 2 m away... Because you simply cannot react at that short of a distance. You won't even be able to press a button in time after the attack starts...
Spirit still moves at almost double your speed... Changing direction while chasing is somewhat a mindgame... If the other player doesn't expect you to do it you will catch him offguard... And spirit can do this while in her power... Also I'm not entirely sure how often the cue refreshes... Dude if you're not playing mindgames on the survivor while chasing what exactly are you doing? Just balatanlty following? Hiding your light, changing direction(while out of sight) and so on are all really basic mindgames you can do... A mindgame does not need to be something huge... It can just be coming from a weird angle so they run into you... During chase not at the beginning... The whole point of the change was to give players feedback what spirit is doing to react appropriately... A good spirit will still trash you man ^^ I already sent you the spirit showcase video by Hens you still cannot reliably loop her, just because she moves at double your speed... She will still catch you. When you get an idea of what the killer is doing by some information you can react appropriately to it by using your skill... But if you play against old spirit and you just have no information whatsoever that just does not apply... So with the spirit change a player can use their skill to do stuff and not just blindly guess... Now god pallets stop her, but not even the pallets in jungle gyms are safe enough so spirit has to break them... in the showcase only the crane pallet and shack are strong enough so they need to get broken, no other one.
And now you bring in deathslinger man... Slinger was just as bad... You couldn't react to insta shooting... At least you get some wind up time and only then you need to start guessing when he will shoot... That's somewhat better I guess... I still don't like it that you have such a fast attack with no appropriate windup... I mean if we compare it to a huntress hatchet and how long she has to hold it till it is maximum charged... And only then they move at the same time... But at a very short range you cannot react to either of them...
Also Spirit is still in full controll of the chase... No idea why she would not? She moves at over 7m/s... Just because you know she is coming does not necessarily mean you can do much about it in many situations... Also I don't think the skill required for spirit and Deathslinger did get changed... Spirits brainless stand still mind game is no more and now she can mindgame by changing directions in loops to trick the survivor... I think it got even increased... Unless you play the unga bunga spirit build with spirit fury enduring and the addon the refreshes your power when you get stunned or break a pallet or whatever it was? The same for slinger his mechanics didn't get touched besides the wind up time... And let's be honest insta shooting required 0 skill... You just line up while following and the survivor cannot dodge at all in time...
Deathslinger and Spirit had no mindgame powers before the change man... Like stated many times... A mindgame needs some form of setup... Something the person does that tries to mindgame... But in both cases the survivor had nothing he could react to.
When you play against a curv billy he is constantly trying to put you in a position at a tile where he can curve you... And by constantly changing his position he makes you believe he will come from that side... Until you place yourself poorly and he can curve you... I think that's a mindgame like power... And I think it is great to go against... You can never be sure from which side he will curve you and also not if he goes tight or wide... But the survivor can also react to it and has a good chance to not get hit if he knows what he is doing... You seem to have a problem differentiating mindgame and guessing... Survivors don't have a problem with mindgames... They however do not want to constantly guess as they want to apply their aquired skill to the game and just does not happen when all they can do is guess... Let's go back to the billy example... Let's say the tile is shaped in a form that makes it way harder to curve from one side and easier from the other... The billy knows what he is doing but he hasn't mastered billy... Based onthose two things you can now make an educated guess that it is more likely he will take the easier curve because he might not be able to pull off the other one... That's an example for something survivors enjoy...
I mean we have played the game for several thousand hours and learned countless of things... All we want to do is apply the things we learned in a skillfull way to try to last long in chase... And if a killer like Artist, old spirit or the knight as he seemed on ptb just does not let someone use their skill then this is just not fun... (Artist and Knight because they basically put their power down at a loop and if you cannot find a connected tile you will get hit...)... Once again why would you like to play a game where you put in so much time and all it comes down to in chase is guessing without any hints if you're right or wrong beforehand... If you think guessing is fun good for you I guess... But most people don't as they'd rather apply what they learned to outplay the other side.
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@PB_TORCHer said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3267532#Comment_3267532
This is how the game works. Stop asking for handouts.
That just sounds like a bad gameplay decision... And no that is not necessarily how the game works... Improvements in gameplay are always welcome... If there are some unwanted things in the game I think it is a good idea to think about a general fix and not just a perk... Because if they kept doing that you could have just brough bamboozle if you didn't like the infinite windows? Because that's how the game worked... Do you want that as well? Because otherwise you might want to rethink that... change is a good thing in online games because otherwise the game becomes stale... That's why the meta change was a good concept... The execution could have been better though... But why would you want to keep the game the same for years?
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@PB_TORCHer said:
No more base kits! Bring the appropriate perks to counter what you hate. You have 4 slots we don’t need an imaginary 5th
For years BHVR has compensated bad/unfun gameplay mechanics with perks instead of just making basekit changes to then work around... And it was always if you don't like it bring a perk... I don't think that is a healthy mentality about the game as the gameplay and it's possiblitys must evolve... When you encounter something that is unhealthy or unfun you can work towards removing or changing it...
However I don't necessarily think the way they tested unbreakable was so good that it should go live like that.
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@Clockwork_Enigma said:
Oh, mein Gott...
I didn't expect to come back to huge walls of texts for this. You guys went off on a completely different tangent than the original post.
Sorry buddy, but I am somewhat unable to let it go... Because what he is stating is just wrong on so many levels... Why does he even play a game when he only wants to do a 50/50 guess all the time... Just throw a coin and guess... Basically the same.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3266645#Comment_3266645
Right now the game is designed so, that survivor escapes so long, as he has resources, makes no mistake and does not get outplayed by killer
Your describing the opposite experience. the survivor can make many mistakes in chases but still escape. This is especially true if the killer spreads hooks and plays inefficiently. Killer need to massively outperform consistently at baseline to win strong survivor teams and even then, there is still a chance that end up losing and walking away with at best 2 kills.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3266696#Comment_3266696
Old spirit could just stand still and you had no idea if she was phasing or not...
Most of the time, you did not need information to know where she was phasing but there was 2 ways to tell if she was phasing. the first is that if spirit is using default skin, her shards would light up.
Spirit when entering phase had phase cycles. When she enters phase, her phase cycle resets. It was just very high-level to know she was phasing but most of the time, this was not required to loop spirit in first place.
As shown by scottjund video who is self-proclaimed "good spirit", he had long chase with survivor. You didn't need information to loop spirit, you just need good predictions which is what spirit was all about.
Spirit moves at 7.04m/s at base whereas the survivor moves at 4 m/s... So let's say you are like 5 m away from her and start running away
5 meter is less then killer lunge range. As I said with pallets. Its about predicting her pathing and use the pallet as mindgame. You force spirit to guess on you like comp player did in the video. Its not suppose to be 100% certain counter-play. that is reserved for broken windows and safe pallets that lack mindgames like entire Gideon meat packing plant map or Garden of joy main building window.
A mindgame usually works in a way where you give the other side a certain information... For example hiding your red light
Hiding your red light removes information from the survivor because red light is essentially wall-hacks on the killer hence its called red glow mindgame because you lose information on the killer's location and need to make blind guess on whether to vault window or bluff window vault. Its just that in many situations, you can take safe option which removes risk from the decision.
This cannot real man... You cannot seriously be this delusional... I mean... what you basically want the game to be is just blind guessing without anything... Without any skill involved... This is ridiculous dude...
opposite, I like the game being difficult for the survivor. Given your description and knowledge about exploits, you want the game the game to be about looping and using cheesy exploits that auto win the killer power. Your description of skill is learning how to drop 20 pallets on Gideon meat packing plant then T-bagging at exit gate.
Your idea of wiggling is explained and 5 seconds and can be done by anyone... Just be unpredictable and don't run in foreseeable patterns... Calling that skillfull ist just ridiculous...
There is definitely a difference between a survivor that has bad predictable movement and good unpredictable movement where landing a hit is difficult. I would argue that Wiggling is one of the highest skill-caps for survivor. Wiggling and dodging skill-shots is about reading your opponent and predicting where their aiming. Its on completely different level compare to looping in term of difficulty. You could say its luck based but the stronger survivors do have high probability in making the killer miss their shot compare players with poor movement. As a result, they win more games because their movement is good.
A lot of windows in the game have these rotational loop patterns where the killer cannot do much about them other then take an arbitrary loop that wastes time. Its same with pallets. a majority of pallet just waste killer time and the killer mostly waits for them to get dropped so they can break it. Looping does take skill but I would say its more knowledge based over skill. wiggling definitely takes more skill then looping. Looping is very reliable strategy to waste the killer's time. This is why its so popular.
Wiggling is not a popular strategy because it is inherently unreliable and difficult. Spirit was difficult and unreliable killer to loop. This is why she was strong. Now she is more reliable to loop because of directional audio cue. its just looping fast killer for 5 seconds. Nothing special. Its why she is played a lot less compare to old days. I remember when spirit had like 10% pick-rate and every game was spirit. Back then, she was a lot more fun to play. far more enjoyable then current iteration. Oh well, Easy come, Easy go.
Ok yes agreed you could see the shards light up... But only when she was right next to you... At a normal distance in chase there is no way for you to see it... As you can see in this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOHy-NA2qaYSo yeah... this hint was absolutely useless in a realistic scenario...
I have never heard anyone say something about phase cycles nor have I seen video proof of such a thing existing... So unless you can give me a source for that information I'm just gonna assume it is wrong...
Yes he had some long chases with him and also some chases that lasted 20-30 seconds... The point is... Scott is a good spirit, the other guy was a comp player... That is a completely different level of skill... And the whole point stays... When you guess right... When you just got lucky by chance because there was no tell that she was phasing so all you could do was guess.. No skill involved whatsoever...
Nobody wants 100% safe counterplay so can you finally stop repeating that line like a broken cd... But your skill did not matter against her... As it was completely irrelevant to guessing right or wrong...
According to the wiki:
Basic Attacks are a Game Mechanic unique to Killers in Dead by Daylight. Basic Attacks are initiated whenever a Killer presses the Attack button. There are 2 different Basic Attacks available to all Killers. The Quick Attack is a short-ranged default Attack.A Quick Attack is initiated by merely tapping the Attack button and causes the Killer to swiftly swing their Weapon in front of them.A Quick Attack does not boost the Killer's Movement speed and therefore has a short range, only hitting SurviA lunge attack lasts for 0.3 seconds in which your speed is increased to 6.9m/s... so you'll travel roughly 2.3 m in that time whereas the survivor will travel 1/3*4m/s 1.333 m/s Therefore I don't think 5 m is lunge distance... Also ofc the example is about her being on the other side of a tile... Why else would she even phase otherwise? Spirit keeps her phase speed for 1 second after coming out of phase and can then go into the lunge... With those two combined you will make like 4.5 m/s (or something similar) on the survivor... during that 1.3 seconds of post phase speed and lunge attack.
When we compare the red light mindgame and old spirits phasing the difference is that when you hide your red light you actually do something... Spirit did not have to do anything to "mindgame" the survivor... Since he had no information whatsoever... The whole thing about a mindgame is playing with expectations... You do something that makes the killer or survivor think that some other thing is gonna happen next... The survivor runs toward a window or pallet but fakes it... There is always some form of interaction between boths parties with makes the gameplay... But if you have no information whatsoever you're not mind gaming anyone... Because you're not doing anything.
What I see as skillfull is knowing how to run and connect loops, knowing how to align a fast vault at the most narrow spaces... Being able to counterplay every killer to some degree and in general having good knowledge of the game and how it works... Playing on Gideon takes no skill whatsoever from both sides... Drop 25 safe pallets and kick 25 safe pallets... What I want out of gameplay is the chance for improvement learning mechanics and getting the understanding of the game and apply it in a practical way.
I will die on that hill but I don't think any good killer will miss a survivor because of wiggling... And it is just not skillfull. Once again you're just doing something without any real interaction or goal. You're just hoping for the best without a real plan behind it.
Spirit is still the 2nd or 3rd best killer in the game without a doubt and she got some even better addons now. And now you can actually mindgame with her... By making the survivor believe you're coming from one way around the loop which makes him start rotating in the opposite direction and then changing your direction which he won't notice immediatly so you can catch him offguard before he can reach the pallet again. That's a real mindgame... You're giving someone a certain expectation and then you're doing something else what he did not expect. People felt bad about playing spirit as she was one of the most unfun killers to go against because there was just no counterplay to her... Nothing skillfull you could have done...
Why would you think she was more fun to play back then? Her addons are somewhat stronger nowadays and according to you you woul have known anyway that she was phasing so nothing really changed... (At least in your own little world... Because for everyone else she was miserable to go against and did not really change gameplaywise from the killer side...)
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But the changes got made to uncounter unfun and unwanted gameplay... Like slugging and tunneling off of hook... So what kind of perk would counter those things on the killer side?
@BrokeJotaro12 said:
So the survivor side has BT and Unbreakable built-in which is fair because of some killer mains but what about base kit perks for killer I find it kind of unbalanced of course their are some perks for killer I think should be base kit like blood Warden or no way out because survivors like to be toxic and brag about their escape because a killer had a bad game or because I'm sure hyperfocus will never get changed even though it completely reverses the 90 second gen nerf maybe deadlock?
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soooo... since you only gave perk ideas yet... I guess the killer is coming later?
The scourge hook perk seems kind of useless to be honest... The same as pain resonance you can counter it pretty easily as you can see the aura of the killer during the hook animation and therefore let go before it triggers... But whereas pain res still removes 15% progress this does not have an interaction so I don't think this perk is good.
Psycho field seems okayish... Like nothing special or meta but ok.
the last one seems odd as well... 8m is way too short of a distance for this to work... But I like the idea of triggering after certain chase duration...
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@Gandor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3266621#Comment_3266621
I am so glad you are not designing this game. By what you say, you would ideally reduce the game to rock paper scissors. With caveat that winning 50/50 or loosing once = autowin for killer, because you don't buy enough time for your team and "chases" would be too short.
Right now the game is designed so, that survivor escapes so long, as he has resources, makes no mistake and does not get outplayed by killer (but the games give a lot lot lot of opportunities to make a mistake or get outplayed. But if he does, killer gets great advantage). This is much better design then playing rock paper scissor with better graphics.
Agreed dude... I have no clue what is up with this guy... Holy moly...
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3266255#Comment_3266255
yes because your not account walking time and healing time. you would be surprised, but a lot of the survivor's time is spent walking and healing. Assuming the killer is successful at applying pressure and winning chases, the game is extended for survivor for every chase they fail. Its just not extended enough for the killer to go for many chases since unhooking takes very little time and grouping healing also takes very little time if survivor are efficient at these activities. Part of skill-cap for survivor is being able to push generators while being pressure by the killer. that is what strong survivors teams are effective at. When a killer is getting looped for 2 minutes, this is 2 minutes where killer is not applying any pressure to the team because he got 0 hits. As a result, you will lose all generators or most of generators and be unable to comeback without slugging or a successful tunnel.
I do not want to talk about the survivor items. the whole streetwise/prove thyself(Old leader) genrushing has been in the game for like 6 years. Toolbox got nerfed to only be accessible for SWF genrushing, but originally they were available for soloq with 180 charge commodious toolboxes. The build re-emerged when felix was released with his build to last perk. Strangely enough, survivors were not using it. They eventually buffed build to last to work multiple times but added small window to recharge the item. It has further been buffed with emergence of hyperfocus+stake out. Genrushing build is nothing new. it has been in the game for long time.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3266184#Comment_3266184
between loops, spirit has 1.5 second cast activation time. Do you ever see trapper just stand still randomly for 1.5 second in middle of the chase? Of course not. Standing still as killer in middle of the chase is silly. You can tell when spirit is going into phase by standing still. You can also estimate her catch-up time. In most cases, Spirit's activation time and her low movement speed is not enough to catch-up to the survivor at base-kit. Hold-w is pretty effective vs spirit. The speed add-on were 5%/10%/15%/40%. At best, your facing 25% extra speed with regular add-on's on old spirit, but old green speed was removed. Now only iri ring does anything particularly useful. After you have seen one of her phases, you can mostly estimate her precise phase distance if you have good understanding of movement speed in this game.
since you have no indication whatsoever that she is actually phasing all you can do is blind guess
Spirit at loops is all about mindgames and predicting her routing. you pre-drop pallets and use pallets as mindgames like the comp player in the video. All the killer are suppose to be about blinding guessing. blinding guessing is a skill. reading your opponents mind is what dbd should be about. not looping ring-round rosy with low/no mindgame loops.
I don't think you can wiggle Blight
You can wiggle blight, its not reliable way to loop blight but it is not suppose to be.
still can't get over the fact that you apparently watched the spirit video and still don't see your mistake... Predropping every safe pallet works against most killers... But against old spirit it did not work reliably... She could even hit you in shack after you dropped the pallet..
Pre-dropping pallet is NOT SUPPOSE TO WORK against any killer but it does. every pallet should have mindgame for every killer. Its not suppose to be 100% safe. its suppose to be unsafe. This is why old spirit was balanced. her power fixed the bad loop design of the game for killer. All the killer should be like spirit.
It does not mean always... It just means that it has good chances to work... And again you forget that old spirit didn't give the survivor any hint what she was doing... You didn't even know if she was phasing or not there was no way to mindgame her because you had no information what she was doing...
that is entire point, a mindgame by definition alternative game within the game(DBD) in which the player plays a game in the mind. The game being played is not on the screen.
The audio is the best thing they could have done for her, makes her way less unfair...
What the audio allows these days is give the survivor a chance to do something skillfull... what the spirit can do with this is just fake one direction and then go the other... She moves at 176% movementspeed and will most likely catch the survivor before he can reach the pallet again. And that exact thing is by definition a mind game...
This is exact definition of not a mindgame. Reacting to what your opponent does is not mindgame. it is reacting. The audio cue gives precise details for where spirit is phasing. there is no point being invisible. you might as well be visible like wraith.
In order create a mindgame, you need two aspect to be true
1) The mindgame does not allow the player to be able to humanly react to the ability.
2) The player who is trying to win the mindgame has a lack of information.
This is why spirit was mindgame. You could not react to her ability because you had no information on her routing. you had to predict her routing. Not listen for her precise routing. The killer has to listen to sound cues as guidance to predict the survivor routing. your entire post is making it seem like this interaction is unfair for the survivor when it is not.
Going back Twins and Victor. Wiggling is mindgame. The survivor has lack of information when the killer releases the pounce and you have to predict where the Victor pounce is being aimed to avoid the pounce hit. your saying twin(victor) is unfun to loop. To me, it sounds like you dislike playing survivor and dislike mindgames in general. Your ideal balance for Victor would be adding a red indicator when victor is aiming at you and having 1 second delay after the killer player releases their pounce ability thus removing any need to wiggle since you would be able to react to his pounce by looking at the big red ! indicator sign. Some games have that where AI has unblockable attacks, but they put big red ! when the enemy is using the attack. This is perfect description of how to remove mindgames. Just put indicator and large activation delay on the attacks. hand-holding game design. Dbd does a lot of hand-holding for survivor but at least its not hand-holding you on ranged attacks. Not yet.
The crouching takes some time to get to the hooked survivor and if you unhook without kicking victor he will just hit you afterwards... Still really boring... Twins is not a bad killer... They are low A or High B tier... they're just sluggish to play... Yeah they play more of a slug game... Which is also kind of boring... So sure change them so they can aim for hooks more.
they're sluggish to play to prevent tag-teaming and zoning with two killers. What is wrong about playing a slug game? Victor would need to apply torment on the survivors and if victor downs someone that is injured, They would need to be sent to torment cages automatically like pyramid head's power. That would reduce slugging and encourage automatic hooking for Twins. I am not exactly sure why survivor take offence in slugging. Slugging is currently not very rewarding and you can often get pick-up for free second chances by your teammates. this is one of reasons why twin is not popular killer. She is not rewarding to play and her strategy currently is difficult to execute. Its hard to keep people injured making it difficult to slug(chain downs)+lack of information to do so. holding victor hostage and abusing lockers is unfun for the killer. Hooking survivor is painful while slugging is unrewarding(for the killer) if the survivor team is effective at countering it. On top of that, you have to be stellar at landing every single victor pounce to be good at twins which can be difficult depending on survivor skill-level in movement. Twin's needs to massively over-perform compare to effort required for survivor to win. Its not surprising that twin is not popular. Just unfun killer to play in current iteration of dbd.
So either you're meming or you seriously just don't understand 1. the game 2. what a mind game is 3. why blind guessing is completely stupid and has nothing to with skill of any sort...
Your comparison to trapper lacks any understanding of old spirit... Old spirit could just stand still and you had no idea if she was phasing or not... Trapper cannot just place a trap without you seeing him place it... Why do I even have to explain this to you dude? It was literally called the stand still mindgame... People did this and because the survivor had no idea if the spirit was phasing or not they sometimes even vaulted into the spirit... That this was actually like that and happened rather frequently is not up for debate as anybody that played against old spirit knows it... And there are probably a lot of videos up on youtube with exactly this stupid stand still mindgame...
Spirit moves at 7.04m/s at base whereas the survivor moves at 4 m/s... So let's say you are like 5 m away from her and start running away... she starts phasing... you are now 11 m away from her... You will loos 3 m of distance every second... she catches you after roughly 3.5 seconds... You seem to have 0 understanding of how this works... Leaving a tile against spirit while her power is up is just deadly... But back then you did not know when she started her phasing how often shall I tell you that? There was no way for you to know when she started to phase and therefore no way to know what speed addons she had... She could just stand still and look in which direction the survivor went or look if they started walking or something and there was no way for you to know that.
A mindgame usually works in a way where you give the other side a certain information... For example hiding your red light, which is the most basic mind game indicates for the survivor that the killer might not come around the corner... With this information he can now decide whether he things the killer will go left or right... With old spirit you had no information at all... You were just guessing... That's like saying when there are two guns aimed at you and without any warning one of them will shoot you it is skill to guess correctly which one will shoot you... It has nothing to do with skill ... Guessing is like the opposite of something skillfull.. You're not even doing an educated guess where one option or the other is more likely or with more options you are able to say at least one of them is not it...
This cannot real man... You cannot seriously be this delusional... I mean... what you basically want the game to be is just blind guessing without anything... Without any skill involved... This is ridiculous dude...
Not I would not want that either... I just want some serious counterplay that you can actually learn and react to and do something meaningful that can tell your skill apart from somebody less skilled... Like getting a fast vault at some spots... That's something skillfull you have to put time in to learn... Your idea of wiggling is explained and 5 seconds and can be done by anyone... Just be unpredictable and don't run in foreseeable patterns... Calling that skillfull ist just ridiculous...
I'm so glad the game does not get balanced around your ideas because I would stop playing it imediatly... Your idea of skillfull plays or mindgames is just enraging... Jesus man...
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"grunts of pain only happen when your injured. Grass moving? Avoid the grass? Footsteps? Walk as she catch-up"
the point is you did not know when spirit was in phase... So when do you start walking? If you start walking too early she will just go to where you walked and hit you... and if you start too late the scratchmarks will still be there... And since you have no indication whatsoever that she is actually phasing all you can do is blind guess... And the spirit will basically always come out on top of this... Because she can just wait for 1-2 seconds and look what you're doing while you are guessing if she is phasing or not and so on... This was just completely dumb. There was just nothing for you to know if she was phasing or not...
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3265824#Comment_3265824
what good timing? crouching is instantaneous action. you can read the killer's animations and react to it. Usually when killers use their powers, their aim is accommodated by understanding their hitbox limit, so crouching to reduce hitbox is really stupid if you can do this in reliable way that turns hits into misses.
I do not agree with nemesis's crouching at windows/pallet tech to erase his range capacity. its too easy. Old billy is about predicting his curving routing. he is usually curving inwards or outwards. most of the time, its inward because survivors when looping usually hug the walls of loop so that they can most efficiently loop around objects to get maximum amount of rotations of a loop. Just side-stepping is sufficient counter-play for billy's chainsaw. Now a days, Billy is rare sighting because his chainsaw has too long of charge time. Billy is too slow in his chainsaw ability to curve survivors that hug efficiently the walls. You can often make it around the corner without requiring the need to side-step his curves.Once again, Line of sight becoming hard-counter to his ability which is bad design. Blight is more complicated billy, but you can wiggle his lethal rush in certain instances, though your better off understand his bump logic to avoid requiring the need to side-step his ability as it is mostly favourable for him to hit you. I am aware of his hitbox and I am certain LilithOmen understand the hitbox as well.
Ok then please explain to me how do you mindgame a spirit that sees the grass moving, can hear your footsteps and grunts of pain while you did not even know if she was phasing as well as where she currently is?
grunts of pain only happen when your injured. Grass moving? Avoid the grass? Footsteps? Walk as she catch-up. Base-kit spirit is so slow that you often outrun her phase-walk if your far enough away from her. You do not need to see her if your far away. You can calculate her catch-up very accurately. Directional audio cue is really stupid now a days for spirit. ruined the character.
He even did it against a comp player and what that guy did was basically drop a pallet every 12 seconds and make the spirit guess but even that did not work reliably...
You're not going to make somebody who is somewhat decent at twins miss a hit... It's just not happening often enough to be even somewhat reliable..
its not suppose to work reliably. If you can always do X and expect Y to occur then doing X every time against the killer is just free auto-win. that is just stupid. Speaking of which, dropping pallets every 12 seconds produced a 2 minute 17 second chase vs spirit. Definitely looks like a broken killer. For reference, 5 generators take 90x5 seconds to do and 3 survivors only need 2 minutes and 30 seconds to finish all 5 gens, so doing 2 minute 17 second chase is 4-5 generators in 1 chase. Its game-losing chase for killer to have this long of a chase. Scottjund video just proves that spirit does have counter-play. She needed no changes. Survivors just cried because they could not adapt to her play-style.
Spirit's gameplay is exactly how victor's gameplay works at pallets. just pre-drop every pallet vs victor and use pallets as mindgames for very strong pallets. The lesser safe pallets, you can try pallet stun victor, but it relies on making reads on his pounces. This whole conversation feels like your complaining that the killer has mindgames and that you need to loop differently in risky way instead of the ultra-easy mode looping that most killers have.
this hook trap/place victor playstyle is exactly why nobody wants to play against twins, besides other reasons... It's just miserable to go against...
are we once again complaining about killer camping? I mean if you crouch, victor does not detect you with killer instinct+with recent buffs to survivor base-kit, you get borrow time base-kit so if victor hits borrow time or hits endurance such as dead hard, he goes on cooldown and you can kick him. Miserable to go against is not an excuse to keep the killer bad.
You could have just taken the M1 with charlotte and use victor only to down the survivor... Also you don't have no power during that time... The survivor that has victor clinging onto them does not hear the heartbeat, better than nothing... But this whole thing is basically why you really don't want to give survivors the chance to keep him hostage...
As you can see with old spirit, the comp player has long chases. M1 Charlotte is a joke to loop. Not hearing heartbeat is irrelevant in most cases for when your in the chase. With survivor keeping victor hostage, your forced to get looped for 30 seconds because you cannot use your ability. Its dumb gameplay design for the killer. Twin's need some quality of life changes to make her more enjoyable to play as for killer. she is too inaccessible to play for the most part in my opinion. the game favours hooking when she favours chain downs. I think remember patrick saying that twin would get changes but it will be in the very distant future. I guess we will see what changes for her in the next year.
Good timing in the sense of if you do it too early the killer will just wait it out and come closer ... Range capacity what? I didn't say anything like that you have me confused there...
I don't think you can wiggle Blight, because you can just shoulder flick or use bump logic if you were too far off...
Spirit usually won't use her power unless she is already in a certain range of you... You cannot calculate her moving towards you as you have no clue what addons she is using and therefore how long and how fast she can phase... Avoid grass alright dude... That's not something you can always do... Really good spirit players can even hear the breathing... I think you just have no idea what you're talking about here... When she uses her power at a loop she is almost double your speed and can catch you rather easy... What the audio allows these days is give the survivor a chance to do something skillfull... what the spirit can do with this is just fake one direction and then go the other... She moves at 176% movementspeed and will most likely catch the survivor before he can reach the pallet again. And that exact thing is by definition a mind game... You make the person believe you're doing one thing and then do the other... And the survivor might even be able to notice it early enough and again do something about it and then the spirit can react again... Thats the whole thing... That's what I mean by reliable btw. by estimating her position you can try to avoid her... It is reliable in chance not in outcome... The audio is the best thing they could have done for her, makes her way less unfair...
She has counterplay in a comp setting??? Where the players do the gens in like 3-4 minutes... ######### are you talking about XD The comp player said exactly that... But that's just not reasonable in a non comp setting... If you play like that with normal players the map has no safety anymore and your team will fall like the flies... Gen took 80 seconds back then so 3 gens pop but then you have the time to travel to the next gen so the other gens might be half... And that was probably the longest chase he had... There were chaeses were he went down in like 20-30 seconds just because he guessed wrong... Old spirit was basically just blind guessing... And what he basically said was he cannot really outplay her, but even though he has to guess by doing what he did he can also make the spirit guess... That's completely stupid... to guys just blind guessing and by pure luck one will get out on top... That's why once again the change was great... Finally you can actually react to something when you're playing against a spirit... She will probably still get you but at least you had a chance and something to work with.
You seem to misunderstand the word reliably... It does not mean always... It just means that it has good chances to work... And again you forget that old spirit didn't give the survivor any hint what she was doing... You didn't even know if she was phasing or not there was no way to mindgame her because you had no information what she was doing... to me this conversation feels like you have no idea what you're talking about and think all players should just blind guess everything... Old spirit's stand still pallet mind game was the dumbest thing ever... she just stood there and waited for you to run into her... And she could pull it off indefinitely and at some point she could actually phase if the survivor did not move at all and he had no idea she was doing that... That was just so dumb.
The crouching takes some time to get to the hooked survivor and if you unhook without kicking victor he will just hit you afterwards... Still really boring... Twins is not a bad killer... They are low A or High B tier... they're just sluggish to play... Yeah they play more of a slug game... Which is also kind of boring... So sure change them so they can aim for hooks more.
I still can't get over the fact that you apparently watched the spirit video and still don't see your mistake... Predropping every safe pallet works against most killers... But against old spirit it did not work reliably... She could even hit you in shack after you dropped the pallet... At least now she needs to break the pallet... The killer is not ruined at all.. You could even argue she is stronger now as she got some better addons... Hens did a spirit showcase some time ago and from yellow addons upwards the comp killer player was sure that he would be able to 4k the survivors (also a comp team) before they would be able to do all gens and he did... Does not sound like a ruined killer to me... The point is even though you get an audio where she is and that she is phasing she still moves so fast that it does not really matter too much in loops... Basekit of course is somewhat weaker but even then he 4k them... Spirit is still easily in top 3...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIiGws6MTwkQuality of life changes are fine for the twins no issue there, but I would really want the gameplay to be more interesting... Holding victor hostage is boring, wiggling is dumb and not skillfull ... and running around somewhat round objects where victor cannot hit you is also stupid... the only thing that stays is good pallets and windows... And even then on some maps you just want get the tiles you would need to do that properly... So maybe something unique would be nice...
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@DesertYoshi said:
These are just my own thoughts, and will not often make the biggest impact on most of the game. There are a few exceptions, but overall just the smallest quality of life changes. Also, my apologies if I add something that already exists, or miss something that should be on this list.
Survivor Perks:
- Aftercare: Have a token system to see how many survivors you are sharing aura with
- Autodidact: Add a perk effect icon to the HUD of the survivor being healed (like Bite the Bullet)
- Breakout: Add a perk effect icon to the HUD of the survivor with increased wiggling speed
- Dark Sense: Add an audio cue when Dark Sense triggers (like Alert)
- Inner Focus: Add an audio cue when Inner Focus reveals the Killer's aura (like Alert)
- Kinship: Add a perk effect addon to all other Survivors when Kinship triggers or highlight the Survivor effected by Kinship in white (like Reassurance)
- Leader: Add a timer to the perk effect icon to indicate when the effect will be lost (like Streetwise)
- Solidarity: Add a perk effect icon to the HUD of the survivor being healed while injured (like Bite the Bullet)
- Vigil: Add a timer to the perk effect icon to indicate when the effect will be lost (like Streetwise)
- Wake Up!: Add a perk effect icon to the HUD of all other survivors when opening an Exit Gate (like Empathic Connection)
- We're Gonna Live Forever: Add a perk effect icon to the HUD of the survivor being healed and for the duration of the Endurance effect (like Bite the Bullet)
Killer Perks:
- Barbeque & Chili: Add a timer to the perk icon to indicate the length of the aura reading (like Bitter Murmur)
- Eruption: Add a perk effect icon to the HUD of survivors working on generators marked by Eruption (like Fearmonger)
- Gearhead: Add an audio que when Gearhead triggers
- Mad Grit: Have the perk icon darkened when not carrying a survivor (like Iron Grasp and Agitation)
- Scourge Hook: Monstrous Shrine: Have the perk icon darkened until further than 24 meters from the survivor on the scourge hook (like Devour Hope)
- Territorial Imperative: Add an audio que when Territorial Imperative triggers
Those are just my thoughts. I really think all these minor changes could make these lesser used perks more appealing or communicate the times when perks are active, and make Eruption ever so slightly easier to avoid.
Thanks for reading.
Sounds fair dude.
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Also I like the knight example... He falls into the same bad designed killer pattern that consists of him Dredge and Artist where you basically can only evade a hit if you leave the tile and find a different loop in range the killer has to setup his power again... It provokes even more holding w and that's just terrible..
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I mean at least the crouch tech needs some really good timing i guess... But it seems really strong against those types of killers... The problem with Nemesis is what else are you supposed to but crouch? Randomly juke left or right? Again there is no reaction time to react to him whipping you so... I don't think the billys and blights are missing... Blights hitbox while touching the survivor physically is massive and he can hit you while he cannot even see you to his side... Watch the explanation from LilithOmen for this ... And Billys hitbox is usually somewhat generous so stating they missed is just not true buddy... Especially after the explanation quoting the video description with it having to do with the killers no being able to look down so they cannot hit you with the power...
Ok then please explain to me how do you mindgame a spirit that sees the grass moving, can hear your footsteps and grunts of pain while you did not even know if she was phasing as well as where she currently is? These days with the audio you have at least something you can work with but the old version of her was terrible to go against... Guess her routing great dude... you have no indication what she was doing that 100% a blind guess without anything... That has nothing to do with anything skilled if it is just guessing... The problem with a good spirit is they don't need to see you, they know exactly where you are anyway... Even without the killer instinct thing addon... When even the comp players agree on that topic who are really skilled against spirit and all the other high tier killers I don't think you can go against that... There was even a video Scott Jund did, where he wanted people to show him counterplay to spirit in a 1v1 and basically no one could... He even did it against a comp player and what that guy did was basically drop a pallet every 12 seconds and make the spirit guess but even that did not work reliably... There were chases where he went down in seconds and some where he basically looped him for quite some time, but dropped basically every single pallet on the map... And keep in mind the survivor is a comp player not your average dbd dude that you'll encounter in normal matchmaking...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyQnAlCGRSEYou're not going to make somebody who is somewhat decent at twins miss a hit... It's just not happening often enough to be even somewhat reliable... A god pallet is no argument against that... basically every killer the game needs to break it come on man... I agree twins is somewhat disadvantaged because victor can't destroy god pallets... But let's be reasonable here... how many godpallets do normal maps have? Usually less than 5... So that's not really helping that much either... especially because the Twins player already knows that so he probably will not take a chase to such a god pallet for it to become relevant...
I already agreed on the strong window part... The whole thing we were arguing about was this ridiculous claim about this wiggle stuff... I mean sure it becomes harder to hit than if they were just not dodging at all, but it also does not become hard enough to call this looping or something reliable you can pull off... Before I would do that I would just try to find a stack of hay or some tires or something else round and run around that as I'm 100% certain that this would be far more reliable...
And this hook trap/place victor playstyle is exactly why nobody wants to play against twins, besides other reasons... It's just miserable to go against...
You could have just taken the M1 with charlotte and use victor only to down the survivor... Also you don't have no power during that time... The survivor that has victor clinging onto them does not hear the heartbeat, better than nothing... But this whole thing is basically why you really don't want to give survivors the chance to keep him hostage...
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That's what the video description of the first video said to why this actually works, for all of you who don't want to watch the video:
The reason this works is because crouching lowers your hitbox. Killers hit based on their camera, so billy blight and demo cant look down while using power, making the survivor unhittable mid power usage when the survivor is placed lower than the killer. This partially works on flat ground when the killer doesn't perfectly aim at the survivor.
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I especially like the part of the first video at roughly 22 seconds where the billy touches the survivors back with saw while running and just slides away on his back down the stairs...
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3265574#Comment_3265574
Crouch teching is when you crouch to dodge an attack for example billys chainsaw, blight or demos shred as the decrease in hit box size makes the attack not connect if pulled off properly.
I thought crouch tech was when survivors have iron will/off the record and they crouch in the doorway. I sometimes see that as killer when I am walking through shack doorway. It makes me wonder if that guy watches too much youtube highlight reels vs bad killers. Those bad killer clearly do not understand how scratch marks work when entering a doorway.
The killer your describing make no sense. billy backrev his chainsaw and there is technique called chainsaw feathering which is when you 95% your chainsaw to read the survivors movements to get the hit. missing backrev chainsaw as billy is embarrassing. Demo and Blight make even less sense.
I think only three killer you can use crouching in a chase is Nemesis, Huntress(when huntress is throwing across objects) and Deathslinger. Nemesis, you can crouch his tentacle and if there is object in front of him(like a window), your invulnerable to him. Huntress moves at 77% when holding a hatchet which is like 5 stacks of pwyf, so you duck hatchets on certain loops. Slinger is similar. you can duck on certain places if you know he is going fire over a certain obstacle hole.
according wiki. pounce moves at 28.35 m/s which is 708%. wow that is faster then demo charge. I just looked that up as I started writing this post.
My point about this whole thing is basically you cannot really dodge it... the projectile (Huntress Hatchet, Slingers Harpoon, Victor, Demogorgons Shred (at a small distance) are just way too fast to reaction dodge.
Keyword: Reaction. Mindgames are not reactions. They are games played in the mind. your not suppose to react to them. your suppose predict what your opponent will do in advance with no information. Its similar to old spirit.
The purpose of distance is to make killer need to estimate where the survivor is instead of directly look at hitbox of the survivor and releasing button. Its process called leading the shot. It makes killer have to predict where the survivor is going to be instead of where the survivor is on the screen. Your trying to make the shot as difficult as possible to land. Its not about dodging at 100% consistency. It is about reducing the probability that your opponent successfully hits you. that is what counter-play is. its lowering probability of something being effective. Not making it completely ineffective(0% chance to hit) which is what line of sight is.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/X2SJ3QGVKDK3/image.png
Low-level survivor wiggling is just swaying from side to side. Its an easy pattern to follow. high-level wiggling is closer to straight line, but its not straight line. its random pattern line that is difficult to follow. The further you are from the killer, the harder it is for the killer to track your movements especially if the movements are erroneous as as purple line. Survivors with good movement are way harder to land hits on compare to survivor with green-line movement. Your just looking at counter-play as every other casual player looks at counter-play. your trying find a 100% certain method that always works to remove the mindgame of the ability when mind games inherently are about uncertainty and probability. Of course, with any probability problem, your always trying to minimize probability and make the probability as favourable as possible for yourself. That is to say, Not all mindgames are equal 50/50's, Players often try to find ways to skewed it to their side(Such as running Toy sword Twins to make it easier to land pounces/lower counter-play.)
Ok so since you obviously have no clue what a crouch tech is and why it is not necessarily the billys fault... Here you go:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCF-nJQo-dcApparently why it works like that is because it reduces the hitbox of the survivor and therefore they cannot be hit properly...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRkOESqVSfEAfter seeing this tell me again it's the killers fault dude :D
The comparison to spirit is greatly in my favor because old spirit was not possible to mind game during her power... She had full controll of the chase with good hearing and all you could do was instantly drop the pallet and make her guess... There are many old videos about that topic and the comp players apparently agreed that there were basically no mind games involved only making her guess without much thought behind it...
Even if you do those awkward wiggles... When the killer releases the button the moment you're in front of his thing you will get hit... So your movement does not matter... Also even if the wiggles make him wait a bit... Then victor will just stop his pounce and be right on top of you and just do it again... At some point he will feel confident enough and hit you point blank... The whole drawing does not really matter because you only have like 2-3 seconds of time until he will pounce on you and during that you're not going to make that much sideway movements.
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@Gandor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3265702#Comment_3265702
Then all I have is personal experience - and that one tells me the map is pure awful. Once first chase is done, that part of the map is never usable again for me. IDK what is the matter with me if the map is so strong, but I literally would gladly take any other map to rotten fields. Like saloon is very nice option for me to go instead of rotten fields
Saloon is a really good killer map... It is small, most tiles outside of the town are not good and it is fairly easy to win on if you force a 3 gen out there, but you basically have to abandon chase when you come to the main building as it will take ages to get a hit there and the rest of the town is also fairly strong.
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I just searched for a little bit... So back in early 2021 it was the map with the highest escape rates according to the latest set of data... I don't know what got changed since then, but I did not feel much of a difference whatsoever and I play the game for 3 years now... I don't think 10 meters is that much of an issue, you'll see the killer coming anyway and should be able to reach a tile most of the map... And I don't think cowtree is the only safe and reliable structure on this map... Most pallets are quite safe and really hard to ever mind game and it usually spawns 3 jungle gyms which is quite good.
It is not even that big, it's just that the gens are on the edges which makes the distance between them larger... And for the 10 m argument again... To make up a distance of 10 m the killer takes over 15 seconds (60cm/s) in which you can move 60m (4m/s)... You should be able to get to something... Except against Wraith or so I basically never feel like I'm in a complete deadzone to be honest.
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@Gandor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3265644#Comment_3265644
It's rng. You can get good loops, you can get bad loops. What you will always get are several generators, that have only protection of said generator and corn. As I said - for me 4th toughest map in a whole game - and I will gladly pick any other map for this one (except the 3 that are higher on my list).
I mean sure - I can't untangle myself on yamaoka map loops (especially family residence as I somewhat like sanctum's main) so I don't particularly like those too. But I know that is a me thing. On the contrary I consider rotten fields objectively bad map for survivors
The gens are all on the edges of the map which makes sneaking up on you rather rough unless you're stealthy with not heartbeat... I think it is a really good survivor map... 2nd best survivor coldwind map in my opinion and overall in the top 10 I think. Wasn't it the map with the most escapes like a year ago or so? Even before cowshed back then?
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It can spawn cow tree or the tractor that can be looped into a jungle gym, some of the straw balls are also loopable into jungle gyms... Basically all pallets that spawn on the map are really safe + the above mentioned long walking times... I think that you're overestimating the deadzones in the middle...There are maps which are far worse when it comes to deadzones and the tiles on the edges of the map are somewhat well connected... not Cowshed levels of connected but close enough for you to reach a different tile... And as far as I know it always spawn double digit amounts of (safe) pallets...
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@Gandor said:
The map is strong on survivor side. But I can't say it's impossible (at least for me) to win there as killer or to loose as survivor.
Considering cowshed is same realm as rotten fields, I think they are fair exchange. So sure - if we want to have everything more balanced (I am not opposed to it), then take a few loops from cowshed and move them to rotten field somewhere to mid area so that map center will not be a dead zone.
But rotten fields is also an already quite strong survivor map.. Why would you want to buff it :D:D It has a lot of save structures at the edges of the map and the objectives are all on the edges of the map making the killer travel a longer distance XD
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@Leviticusi said:
So, we've had a literal span of 2+ years now where people have outright begged BHVR to change Fractured Cowshed to change the weights of the tiles since something has to be off about them. It's quite literally not uncommon at all to see every single tile on the map link into each other in a big square/rectangle, through both the barn and the killer shack. Most of the tiles around the map also having open loops where you can't mind game, moonwalk or anything of the sort, let alone the fact that this map also has an absolutely absurd amount of pallets for how safe the loops are.
That's not even taking into consideration the fact that they somehow thought that the barn, which was already one of the strongest buildings in the game before the changes, decided that it needed breakable walls which means you can be ENSURED to lose up towards three chases due to the inability to actually move in the barn. There should never be a position on the map where, regardless of where you are, you move towards that area just because you already know there's no way for you to get caught in that building unless someone has already brought them to the building multiple times over, at which point - why aren't you already queued up for the next game?
When I play this map as a survivor, I feel bad because I know unless you are someone like Nurse or Blight, you have to play in the absolute sweatiest and most boring manner possible. When I play this map as a killer, I feel like giving a cheek kiss to a moving train.
You didn't see old cowshed mainbuilding? That thing was far worse dude, it was so terrible dude xD Basically the same but no breakable walls so the window that leads into where basement was is a safe 3 vault window and if done correctly you could loose chase so it would not get entity blocked and therefore you could infinite a killer there... Good old times dude ^^
Yeah agreed the map is way to loaded with safe tiles and so on.. I have to admit even as killer I don't dislike it... It takes more skill to run it than the game ( I know thats not really an achievement, every map takes more skill to run than the game...) but I find it quite hillarious how bad you need to be as survivor to get hit and how hard a M1 Killer struggles to get a hit... This map is an atrocity and I love it XD But since there can never be enough balanced maps I don't mind if they make it more balanced... Hopefully they don't overdo it though...
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3265336#Comment_3265336
your entitled to your own opinion. predicting where the killer is shooting/aiming is mindgame. Most of the strong killers centralize around skill-shot powers, As a result, It is an important skill-cap for survivor. Victor is skill-shot power. He requires mindgames to defeat and loop. That is why Twin is not weak killer. not in 1vs1. The better twin's player is, the harder it is to loop victor.
You mind game when you try to take weird pathing or fake one direction and go the other or try to hide your light or double back or whatever... What you're doing is basically wiggling and hoping the other guy misses... there is no reading in there...
your hiding your red light and hoping the survivor plays badly. let me flip your statement for the killer. I am hoping that when I play a ranged killer, My opponent just walks in a predictable straight line so I always hit them with my ability. I am hoping for my opponent to have bad movement for me to have 100% accuracy with my ability.
And I don't know where you got this 100% auto win counter play thing from dude... Because counterplay is only supposed to let you do something that can work against the killer...
Sure, wiggling is something you can do against the killer to make it harder for killer to hit you. Holding Victor hostage for 30 seconds which disables Twin's power for ~40 seconds is asking the killer to lose by generator efficiency because the player is being impaired from pressuring the map with their ability. Most of what you named is not counter-play either. Its stuff that does not work vs good killer or is 100% certain to work vs killers. For example, faking demo shred at a window does not work because the demo player can hold their shred, walk up to you, then cancel it or hit shred because it has big hitbox and any player with decent fps skills will get pointblank hit 9/10 times. I am not sure what crouching teching is. Is it crouching at a corner and hoping the killer goes past you? I have seen that gimmick as killer. Just a free hit. Spinning does not work vs good killers. 360's only works for killer who have crap m1 tracking with their lunge attack, low level killer play. I do not know what reverse pallet dropping is but walking in front of the killer is guaranteed hit when your injured. You will not pallet stun the killer. As for line of sight, If your always able to have proper positioning to block line of sight with objects, than killer has no counter-play to survivor's gameplay. For example, If I cannot get an angle with Albert Wesker's Virulent bound within his 2 dashes, then there no play that killer can make to hit the survivor. Line of sight is not counter-play, its denying all gameplay from the opposing side.
You need to be able to make a play as killer for survivor to do a counter-play. In this case, The killer takes shots and the survivor avoids shots by having difficult to hit movement.
Skill shot powers usually become rough when you're not using them at point blank range dude... When you're not at point blank range it actually matters that you dodge...
I never said I like the holding hostage thing... only that is the best thing to do against twins...
Crouch teching is when you crouch to dodge an attack for example billys chainsaw, blight or demos shred as the decrease in hit box size makes the attack not connect if pulled off properly.
If the survivor has line of sight blockers the killer can still predict the survivor movement and guess where they're going and try to cut them off... How do you use that kind of prediction as an example for why wiggling is supposed to be skillfull but in this case it is not?
And the point of the wesker example does not fit either because you will not be in this situation permanently... But how about when facing wesker or billy (when he tries to curve you) you can decide whether you want to go close or wide when the killer uses their power and by doing one or the other have an impact on the outcome... Not in every situation but in some...
I just tried to find out the speed at which victor pounces at you to compare it to demogorgons shred.. But for some reason it did not find it in the wiki well whatever...
I mean even if spinning does not work against good players, besides that point that even good players can get spun, even though it does not happen often, but then again a good huntress will not miss a meele hatchet so... What I want to say is even if it does not necessarily work against players of equal or higher skill it is still something skillfull to pull of... you had to invest time into learning how to do it and so and you can see the difference... Wiggling will always look the same... And the only way to tell apart "good" or "bad" wiggling is by the result of getting hit or not... But back to the huntress comparisson... a good huntress will only miss a really small amount of meele hatchets and I think the same thing goes for Victors pounce... And in both situations I don't think the survivors skill matters that much...
My point about this whole thing is basically you cannot really dodge it... the projectile (Huntress Hatchet, Slingers Harpoon, Victor, Demogorgons Shred (at a small distance) are just way too fast to reaction dodge... The only thing you can do is try to get out of the line he is looking at and if he uses his attack will lunge at... There is basically no acting and reacting... Effectively... I mean even if the killer player is not directly looking at you they can still just flick at you in the blink of an eye and there is just nothing you can do to avoid that... But let's get in some numbers... Lets say you're like 3-4 m away from the killer
Fully charged huntress hatchet 40m/s (25m/s min) and Slinger has also 40m/s
Demogorgon shred 18.4m/s
You're not gonna dodge that speed at close distance... That's just not a thing... You can try to make a killer use his power preemtively at a window or try to crouch the projectile and get lucky...
But at this distance it is just humanly impossible to react in time... I assume that victor moves at a similar speed as demogorgon, like I said, I couldn't find a number in the wiki so I ll just have to guess... Human reaction time is like 0.2 to 0.3 seconds... Huntress and slinger take 0.1 seconds to hit you... or a bit less than 0.2 seconds with a non fully charged hatchet... Demogorgon will take like 0.217 seconds but then again his shred hitbox is quite huge so it will probably still clip you even if you manage to change the direction by pressing a button... because you had like 0.017 seconds of moving differently...
If the killer aims on the place you're in the moment they use there power you will just get hit... There's no way around it... It does not matter what you do... Wiggling will make it harder but there is no difference in the quality of wiggling whatsoever..
And when there is nothing that you could possibly react to... How is it even skillfull?
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3265096#Comment_3265096
i am opposite. I like when looping is based off intuition. you would call it luck. I would call it mindreading. wiggling takes a lot of skill from survivor because you need to predict what the killer sees on their screen then make unpredictable movement that is difficult for killer to read. Its not 100% counter-play where you do X and X always 100% auto-wins for you. Its based off mindgames. I do not think twins is a bad killer in 1vs1, but i think twin is hard to play because her 4vs1 is kinda difficult to execute correctly from lack of information, the whole kidnap victor for 30+10 second regrowth(?) and healing hurting her in general. not enough time for her gameplay to go for hooks.
I know i am being dreaming here, but her power would greatly benefit from pyramid head's torment cages. For example if victor downs while injured, you automatically get hooked into a torment cage. in that case, survivor might complain less of slugging, but my intuition with twins is that they were designed to be based off chaining multiple downs and leaving survivors on the floor. Its more of matter of accepting their gameplay and adapting to it. survivor do not like adapting to it and killer's dislike playing her because its not worth stress. I am suggesting some changes that lower her skill-floor and make her more approachable as a killer.
What you're missing here and why it has nothing to do with skill is that killer and survivor might not necessarily see the same thing on their screen at the same time because of latency and so on... The same reason why the hook grab game sometimes leads to ridiculous results... There is no mindgaming in wiggling like crazy...
You mind game when you try to take weird pathing or fake one direction and go the other or try to hide your light or double back or whatever... What you're doing is basically wiggling and hoping the other guy misses... there is no reading in there...
And I don't know where you got this 100% auto win counter play thing from dude... Because counterplay is only supposed to let you do something that can work against the killer... Not something that is guarateed to work... But at the same time it is supposed to be something skillfull... faking a window against demogorgons shred... Crouch teching... even spinning to some degree... proper positioning blocking line of sight with objects, reverse dropping a pallet and so on and so forth... There is plenty of skillfull things you can do in this game... However wiggling is not one of them...
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@not_requested49 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3263665#Comment_3263665
I actually found a solution to counter face camping and hitting you while you are on hook and teammates are not coming to save you:
Spam the "unhook yourself" whenever he hits you to cancel the yell of pain
Didn't know it works like that, sounds great :D:D
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@not_requested49 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3264661#Comment_3264661
So.. nerf the least used Killer in the game?
I don't necessarily want to nerf twins, strenght wise they are really not weak, generally speaking they are considered low A or mid to high B tier... people don't play them because of the lot of down time in between victors pounces and other clunky features...
I would rather make it so the gameplay gets improved for both sides... Holding Victor hostage is quite boring, but objectively the best thing to do... So we should probably do something about it without really buffing twins...
For example... When you down a survivor with victor and put them on a hook and want to go chase someone else... If nobody kicks victor he just stands there without being able to be removed unless someone kicks him... So maybe we should give twins the option to remove victor anytime but then to prevent camping with victor, when he stands under the hook before someone gets hooked there ( I think this is still in the game if not feel free to correct me)... This way he can stay there whereas you could otherwise not leave him under a hooked survivor and switch to charlotte... So I think when he is parked under a hooked survivor to prevent camping victor just dies when you switch to charlotte...
I would even like it if victor had 2 different respawn times... When you yourself call him back 5-6 seconds is fine... But when the survivor manges to kick him I would like it to be a larger cooldown...
Then the clunkyness when you downed someone and have to wait this long to switch to charlotte and get the hook... How about Victor gets quite the downtime so survivors have a chance to kick him, after a sucessfull down, but during this time you can already switch... I don't think those changes would necessarily be a big nerf or buff but would make it so it just is more fun to play the killer... And as for the longer cd when he is downed... Right now wasting a pallet just to get chased after 6 seconds often feels like a waste, that's why I d like it to be longer because that way twins cannot play that reckless with victor without some form of punishment...
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3264661#Comment_3264661
how about we make it so victor must be used from range... When Victor is kicked the cooldown is like 15-20 seconds
Absolutely not. 15-20 seconds cooldown is time where the killer player is completely useless. there is zero point in the twin's player staying in Charlotte any more then she has to. Twin's time to down is already not amazing considering that she does not have access to an instant down and has to walk big distances even if the chase is very short. Her time efficiency between hooking and chase-time is abysmal. That is why twin's has to slug a lot. Most killer play the game under 6 hook condition because they only need to 2 survivors 6 times to kill two survivors. Twin's time efficiency on hooking is so bad that that she plays the game off 4 hooks. She kills one person, often by camping(pushing survivors to 2nd stage+tunneling) and then attempts to injure entire team so that victor can chain 3 consecutive downs. After that, its simply a manner of 1 hooking remaining survivors. Longer cooldown does not help on a killer that is time inefficient as is.
During that 1 second window you will gain 1.6 m which is basically point blank range so he's still gonna hit you... There is nothing skilled about that just like huntress wiggle stuff is not really skillfull
1 second is the time before you need start wiggling as survivor. after 1 second, your no longer moving at 4.0 m/s in perfect straight line, your in mix-up jagged patterns. You still gain distance on victor and based off how tricky your movement is to read decides how easy it is for Twin's player to hit you. Wiggling is easily the most skillful aspects of survivor in dbd. In fact, there is large difference between a low-middle mmr player wiggling and high MMR survivor that wiggles in unpredictable pattern. I would also argue that wiggling is most fair mechanic between survivor and killer because it allows both players to interact with one another. in some sense, it is truest form of mind games. Its true 50/50. you either get hit or you dodge.
one of big issues with dbd is that a lot of "counter-play" that survivor ask for is 100% full proof counter-play. Its like god pallets. that's considered counter-play to the killer. that pallet that has 0% chance for you to get hit. I don't want to go into rant about this but expecting 100% full proof counter-play towards a killer power where the killer cannot hit you ever is terrible balancing. Its ideally suppose to be that the survivor an outplay in every situation but the killer can get a hit in every situation but no side gets a 100% hit in any situation. dbd struggles a lot with that where one side is too favoured in one scenario. You get a lot of 100% hit situations as killer and 100% safe situations as survivor. Victor is 50/50, so its very much skill-based match up to loop victor. He's not easy to loop but its still possible.
Just to touch a bit on add-ons, most twin's player use a grey add-on called Toy Sword. For grey add-on, its easily her strongest add-on, it might as well be an iri add-on or purple add-on in term of power-level. Its pretty big to reduce charge time by 0.2 seconds because it means that you have 0.2 less seconds that victor is slowdown which means that your closer to the survivor when completing a pounce. Closer to survivor = Higher probability to get a successful victor pounce. Its still possible to outplay victor with add-on, but victor will be that much closer to you and you will need start wiggling a lot closer then usual. This is just talking about how to play against out in the open. With pallets and windows, its way easier to outplay victor. He can't break pallets and windows do not block since he is not counted as being in the chase.
15-20 seconds is ideal because I think there needs to be some sort of punishment for badly using victor because as it is now 6 seconds is just not enough ...
About the wiggling... You can have your opinion on that but I still strongly disagree... Wiggling has nothing to do with skill... It's just random movement combined with whacky hitboxes of survivors... Truly skillfull is different stuff... I always get amazed at the stuff comp players pull of but I basically never see them wiggling around like crazy, maybe I just wasn't watching the right games... So if you have some footage of comp players doing the wiggle to counter twins I'd gladly watch it and maybe even change my opinion.
I don't want a 100% safe way to counter them I just think there should be a more fun interaction than this ridiculous following stuff... I just don't see that as fun or meaningful interaction at all... As it is now even when you're 2-4 m away from victor he will just wait until you run back in his line of attack and then let go and hit you... He still moves at 2.4m/s if I got that right from you so with that much wiggling you really don't make distance on him so it really does not matter how much time he takes to get the hit... But eventually you will get hit unless he gets hasty.
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@Roaroftime said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3264600#Comment_3264600
That's because her rounds are extremely unfun and rigged and the stats don't include DC's, if they did her kill rate would be the highest... (Anyways ima leave before all the salty nurse mains come out)
You sure they did not include dcs? Because I thought when someone dc's he basically counts as killed... And I didn't find any information that they did or did not account for dcs...
@McDoobz said:
In June, we brought major changes to the game. At the time, we stated that one of the main objectives behind the meta-shifting perk overhaul and base gameplay changes was to improve the overall kill rate (how many Survivors are killed each trial, on average). As stated in our most recent stats post , we did achieve that goal and as you’ll see in the below graphs, the kill rate continues to hover around the 59% to 61% range (up from a 51% to 53% range).
In the context of this new meta, many of you have been expressing that you’d like to see where each killer’s kill rate now stands. So, we’ve compiled the most recent data to share with you.
We’ve created two charts to help you visualize and analyze these stats:
- The first chart represents the kill rate broken down by killer, for all players (all Matchmaking Ratings), for the period of September 2022.
- The second chart also represents the kill rate broken down by killer for the same period, but only for players in the top 5% MMR.
Some things to keep in mind as you consult these charts:
- We rounded up some of the kill rates to make the charts below easier to read (only values ≥ 0.95 were rounded up). Scroll past the charts for exact kill rate values for each data set.
- It’s worth noting that many factors are taken into account when it comes to balancing killer powers and character perks, not only data.
- As always, we are monitoring our overall game balance on an ongoing basis and taking your feedback into account when evaluating whether or not design changes should be made. So please keep sharing your thoughts and experiences with us! We read you daily and relay your feedback to the appropriate people on a regular basis.
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EXACT KILL RATE & PICK RATE VALUES BY MMR
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We hope you enjoy studying these numbers as much as we do!
Until next time...
The Dead by Daylight team
But if you have a source for the information that they did not count dcs I'd be glad to read it... Otherwise I'd have to negate that argument... I mean just be assuming that dc's are not counted is one thing but on which stats do you base the statement that with dcs counted her killrate would be the highest? People disconnect because of many things... And I don't think it is just nurse...
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@MikeyBoi said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3264619#Comment_3264619
I still stand by to what I say, blink range and recharge addons need to be de tuned but nurse base kit is pretty fair for the most part. You need to constantly keep blinking to your survivor which constantly opens up counters play windows for survivors where as billy you can just get bloodlust and m1 survivors, with nurse you can’t do that the majority of chase. You’re crazy if basekit nurse is broken and needs a complete rework, it’s her addons that simply need adjusting as was Billy’s only they added a mechanic on top of his addons being nerfed..
Agreed buddy.
@TheSubstitute said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3264636#Comment_3264636
You are not seriously using anecdotal arguments and personal opinions with no factual basis or support as an argument... omg
I simply don't understand people that reject the data of the highest 5% of mmr... For the other set of data you could argue that those guys don't really know what they're doing on the killer and so on... But for those 5% it reflects how they perform under normal matchmaking conditions on average... So we could assume it would quite meaningfull... Because if the average of a full month of gameplay of the highest mmr players on certain killers in normal matchmaking says nothing then what does?
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@KniQ said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3264646#Comment_3264646
lol I bet you are killer main :D Nurse is strongest killer in the game and need to rework you cant loop nurse in T L walls or something like that she dont need to do redlight fake or smthin :D
I play both sides equally and ofc you can use a TL to your advantage... block line of sight and take unique pathing? All high tiles are great against nurse, that's why edgemap is so good against her and really terrible aganst basically every other killer... If you're trying to loop her like a M1 Killer ofc she will get you... A spirit using her power will also not rely on a redlight fake or something... she will use her power run right on top of you and hit you... The killers in this game should be played differently and also be played against differently... It would be kind of boring if playing against every killer was the same...
The ideas you stated above can only be meme ideas because if you were serious you have no understanding of the numbers behind nurses movement dude... T1 Myers lunge is a joke, her base blink range without addons makes it so she travels at something above 4.2 m/s on average... Reducing that blink range will make her way too slow to catch up to survivors without addons. And I even somewhat agreed on the range addon part... Tuning the numbers down, keep only one of them with maybe 5 m instead of 6 m but keep it purple... or maybe keep both but make it 2 and 4 m additionally... instead of 4 and 6.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3264133#Comment_3264133
one of big problems of twins is the ability for survivor to kidnap victor for 30 whole seconds. there's no real punishment for doing so and it makes killer have a near 40 second cooldown her only ability that separate her from other killers. The reason why he suggested 4.8 m/s is because he is trying punish the survivor for kidnapping victor.
Because the game is 4vs1, just because one person cannot do generator for 30 seconds does not mean other 3 survivors cannot do generators. Twin has no mobility when in charlotte form, so when survivor kidnap victor, your stuck with no power.
I think its just better to be direct about that problem and just make it that twins can recall victor right away instead of giving m/s buff or hindered penalty for the survivor kidnapping victor.
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Also twins will put you into loose-loose scenario. You can kick victor and send charlotte to overdrive and be screwed, or you don't kick victor and play against 6m/s killer until he hits you
I think you wildly misunderstand how to play against victor. Victor is something like demogorgon shred. You can't dodge it pointblank, you need distance. you do not try to pointblank dodge victor. I think that's biggest mistake that survivor try to do vs Victor. A strong twin player will 100% hit you almost every time if you try 360 pointblank victor. You need distance. Victor's pounce is something like a baseball arc pattern. you need utilize victor's charge time which is 1 second by default. When victor is charging, his movement speed is reduced to 2.4 m/s so you make distance as survivor as he charges his pounce. He cannot hit you at all even if he is right next to you until full 1 second charge time has elapsed. The more distance you make, the more travel time the pounce has. When the full 1 second has elapsed, you start wiggling in unpredictable manner similar to how you play against Huntress hatchets or deathslinger's harpoon gun.
Its not lose/lose scenario. its skill-based interaction between survivor and twins. Looping victor revolves a lot on in-taking risk. When victor misses a pounce, you want to make distance from charlotte player. Once you make enough distance, if you make victor miss and Charlotte is really far away, like 30-40 meters away, then you should kick victor.
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I don't really twins at all anymore. so I cannot really comment too much on her but when I was playing her. I think one issue that twins suffers from is lack of perk synergy. there is no perk in the game that grants mangled or reduces healing speed passively in the game. Twins need survivors to be injured because it allows victor to go on slugging rampage. I think victor should apply mangled on his attacks. it would help twins to keep people injured. Victor also has access to bloodhound perk which helps him track injured survivors.
Another reason why I think Twins does not get played a lot is lack of information when using Victor. Out of all killers that I have ever played, I found twins to be one of most information-reliant type killers because you need know where survivors are in order to chain downs. One of popular slugging perks to gain information is Infectious fright. The problem is that infectious fright does not work Victor because Victor has no terror radius. You need a lot of foresight with Twins to play them and I think skill-cap is too high for most players to use them. To lower skill-cap, I think victor should grant killer instinct in 32 meter radius if he downs a survivor. It would help lower skilled killers in lower brackets in playing twins because they would have information to chain downs more easily.
In conclusion I suggest these 3 changes
-Decrease max time required to recall victor from 30->10
-Allow victor to apply mangled status effect when inflicting a health-state of damage until fully healed into the healthy state.
-Allow victor to see survivors within 32 meter radius after putting a survivor into the dying state(3 second of killer instinct).
I think these 3 would be solid base-kit changes to make improve twin's gameplay experience. Overall I think twins suffers from the fact that most of the game relies on hooking survivors but Twin's long walking time to pick survivors up after downing them makes them inefficient hooking killer. She suffers from slugging syndrome. Bleeding out survivors takes too long for twins and its not exactly time efficient strategy to win. If slugging had more incremental rewards similar to hooking, Twins would really good killer. She takes too much time to hook survivors and its difficult for her to win through pure slugging because survivor have too long bleed out timer to win just purely off slugging. As a result, Twins ends up playing somewhat of hybrid strategy between hooking and slugging.
During that 1 second window you will gain 1.6 m which is basically point blank range so he's still gonna hit you... There is nothing skilled about that just like huntress wiggle stuff is not really skillfull in my opinion... I'd rather have it so the cooldown on victor is longer when he gets kicked... Because right now that little guy respawns in like 6 seconds or something ridiculous like that... So when Charlotte is still close by you really don't gain an advantage there by kicking him because he is gonna be back too soon... I understand that the downtime after downing a survivor and before you can swap to charlotte again is a bit too much, so I think we could keep his cooldown but make it so you can swap immediatly without having to wait for the cd, but maybe keep the cooldown at what it is right now or slightly decrease in case you want to keep downing people.
The problem with holding victor hostage is that it is basically the only thing you can do to delay the twins... Just removing him immediatly will just make it so victor is onto you like 10 seconds later... And then you're in the loose loose situation again... There are some tiles that are strong against him, some good windows for example as I think he does not trigger entity block and some rather round tiles where you can run him around indefinitely but I d rather change the whole thing than making those small tweaks...
So how about we make it so victor must be used from range... When Victor is kicked the cooldown is like 15-20 seconds, and he can be kicked whenever he is close to the survivor...(Sounded stupid to me anyway, why can you only kick the goblin while he is in cooldown?) So no more of this meele range wiggle stuff... quicker swap times would also be nice so people cannot just endlessly run around a stack of tires or something. And when you hit a healthy stuvivor he will still grab onto them but can be recalled after 5-10 seconds... Now you can just get close to him to kick him which offers some sort of skilled play... Victor wants you to get closer to have a bigger chance hitting you, but also does not want you too close so he can be kicked and the same goes for the survivor... Using some line of sight blockers to reduce the distance and so on...
Sure there could still be some improvements on this idea but as it is right now people playing twins will basically never try to hit long range jumps and only go for this boring meele stuff...
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@KniQ said:
A lot of things need to change in nurse but my opinion nurse need to have michael tier 1 launch and nurse can wait dead hard when she's on blink this is need to be removed aswell and one more thing blink range addons need to be removed and normal blink range should be reduced
So i guess the ideas stated here were a meme except maybe the range addon part? I'd rather go against nurse all day than against Legion or MDR Spirit or some other killers... I mean sure a Nurse that somewhat knows what she is doing is really strong but there is still stuff you can do to loop her... People radically overestimate the amount of god nurses that cannot be looped at all... Most Nurses are just ok and can be juked for quite some time... Some addon changes and her not being able to use exposed perks seems adaquate to me though, but I wouldn't want to touch basekit Nurse as think that part of her is fine.
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I mean he has 16 m in T2 normally and 12m with dead rabbit and 6 m with monitor and dead rabbit together, but that's basically overkill... the 12m are fine already... I would consider him a stealth killer because when played properly you ambush the survivors with your small terror radius and just pop your t3 on them and oneshot them... If not this what else is a stealth killer then? I mean sure you will notice the heartbeat at 12m but at this point you have like 3 seconds until you get hit and in this time you may not even know from which side he is coming if the line of sight blockers play along and you're inside of a jungle gym or some other high wall structure...
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@Ayodam said:
I generally don’t run streamers (even in my SWFs), but if I do, it’s there. I run Bound Envelopes whenever I have them, though. I don’t believe survivors should play offerings that reward killers because…
1.) Killers more often and more easily earn more bloodpoints than survivors.
2.) When killers see that all player reward offerings are played, they seem to become even more tryhardish.
But, I am a kind and benevolent god, so…
Just make all offerings secret. Reveal them at the end of the match. That way no one knows what anyone has brought until the end.
The problem with that would be that there are some offerings in the game where you have to expect a certain playstyle... Map offerings, Wider distances between hooks and so on... And this way nice killers who might have let you get some gens done or earn some bp in a different way because you used bloodpoint offerings will now maybe just finish it faster... So I think it is a risk in both ways... But since I think there are more nice than toxic players in this game I don't think the offerings should all be secret.
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@ScrantonicityMK said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3263718#Comment_3263718
You’re right. The BP offering won’t change anything, especially since you can’t distinguish between which players will be toxic or not. I was just pretty frustrated after playing a string of matches against players similar to the type that you just mentioned, which had a lot to do with me making this post.
Thank you for your reply, man. Reading that helped. It gives me a lot to think about regarding my mindset when playing this game. I’ll probably end up taking a break from this game as well to focus on something else. Thanks again :).
Glad I could help :D Sometimes you just need to take a step back and realize online games should have 0 impact on your real life in the sense of making you feel worse... Because as soon as you close the game it's just done ^^ In the end games should be enjoyable over all :3
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@ScrantonicityMK said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3263679#Comment_3263679
I never said I had problems with a killer that’s playing to win and “not being nice” earning extra BP. There is a difference between a player not being nice and purposefully BMing someone though.
It does feel bad when you have limited time and you can’t even play multiple matches in a row because someone is singling you out (not for the purpose of winning, but to just be toxic).
But then again... will this bp offering change do something about the toxicity in the game? I mean... it won't change the amount of people that bm you out of spite... don't let stuff like that get too close to you... If it bothers you that much, then maybe take a break or so... I mean... The go next thing is not about actually playing another match but more about the mentality of being done with it, getting over it and so on... It is just a game why should some dude miles away have the power to make your day worse dude? If you feel like a game does not give you joy go next... Find something else man :D I stopped playing dbd last year for like 6 months because I got tired of that and since I came back in January or so I have no issue with that what so ever... If a killer really wants me dead sure he can have me no problem... I can go next in like 5 seconds of queue and he has to wait for 10 minutes after staring at a hook for 2 minutes... At this point he is not even playing a game... He is basically watching a 2 minute clip... and that is really pathetic... on one side that this is actually a thing in this game after so long and on the other hand that somebody values winning so so much that he is willing to basically not even play... I will never get people that do that... Want to stare at something for 2 minutes and feel good about yourself? Go on youtube and watch a video about puppies or sth. far less pathetic...