Archol123
Archol123
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@Emeal said:
Make her Blinks dependent on 'breath' a resource collected like the Oni.
But then you would need to make her blink more powerful than it currently is... Because Oni's power is probably more powerfull then Nurses Blink in way... Because you cannot just make her 3.85 m/s in her power then... It would slow her down from 4.6m/s even when using blinks to traverse the map and that would be terrible... I mean sure we could work with that... But do we really want a stronger version of Nurses Power? If we just keep it as it is currently and make it like Oni's power she would be more in the middle Tierlist wise... But her power would still be the same thing.. And unless you guys are only annoyed because Nurse wrecks everyone then this does not really solve the issue of not enough counterplay... I would like to remind you that before Spirit got her change and many people for some reason assumed she would be bad now, even though she is probably still as strong as before but more brainless with some addons.. Spirit was one of the most hated killers because there was no real counterplay... Now she has some things you can do but a master spirit will still whipe the floor with average players in normal matchmaking... So do you want to tune down spirit after nurse?
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@Phasmamain said:
Nice ideas but they don’t fix the core issues of her power. Only a full rework could tbh
And then Spirit will be the next too strong killer, even with yellow addons she will trash almost everyone if the spirit players knows what he is doing, and she is even easier than nurse...
I think currently Nurse has a form of unique counterplay that is breaking line of sight making some structures stronger that are useless against most killers, and I like that and would like to preserve it as much as possible... The problem over all with really strong killers is that when someone has actually mastered that killer he will just roll over people in normal matchmaking.. No matter if it is Artist or Spirit or Blight or Nurse... And I would rather have it be Nurse, where I have a unique form of counterplay than Artist where I just hold W....
What form of rework would you even want? I don't see a good way to change her power and if we give her a completely new power we could as well just make a new killer...
Also elaborate further on what you think are the core issues? Because I thought it is mostly about range addons and exposed perks... And the huge difference strenght wise between the worst and the best killer.
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@xni6_ said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3279391#Comment_3279391
aura perks would not be useless on nurse, you would see the aura until pressing m2, still more info than not running them. its just yknow, having counterplay is important to survivors isnt it? and nurse running slowdown is much less of a deal than her getting downs in under 20 seconds. like would you rather spend 10 more seconds on a gen with a living teammate or 10 seconds less down a teammate?
If you look at most builds that are currently in the meta they really don't use aura reading oder tracking perks in general a lot... Also things like BBQ without double range are really not that big of a deal... If you go against a nurse that drags out the game to 15-20 minutes because of deadlock eruption call of brine corrupt intervention you would wish the game to end earlier xD But sure you do you ^^
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@xni6_ said:
the first 2 yes, the last 3 definitely not.
a change i suggest is nurse not seeing auras while actively charging blinks, just so you can always 50/50 vs nurse and not have the risk of her having wallhacks completely negating any and all counterplay
I understand the intent, but it might just lead to 4 slowdown perks when you cannot use aura reading effectively anymore...
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@Feather said:
Everyone knows that nurse is really problematic. Most perks need to be weaker for other killers, because nurse can benefit from them even more which isn't healthy.
- Make Blink attacks Special like it used to be. I dont get why it is not in game anymore. It would fix a lot of problems with her stupid power. Sloppy buther, Exposed status effect... Bye bye
- After being stunned you lose all blink charges. It would make pallets at least a little more useful and Decisive strike actually work. Right now after ds u are instantly put into dying state because 3s distance is nothing for nurse.
Things listed above needs to be done. Now here is list or thing i thought off and i dont know if they are that important or good. Think of them more lightly.
- Make Plaid Flannel addon effect visible for survivours. if u dont know what it does: It gives nurse ability to see where she will blink. By giving survivours ability to see where she teleports will give them something to work with. I dont think it will affect nurse that much.
- While charging blink nurse suffers from slowed camera movement like piramid head or deathslinger. It could be reduced by addons maybe.
- While being burned by a flashlight u slowly lose charges no matter if you are charging blink or not. (idk tbh)
I don't see how sloppy butcher or jolt are an issue on nurse? Would you rather have nurse run call of brine eruption as well? I stand fully behind making blinks not work with exposed... But I think perks like sloppy or jolt are far less annoying to go against than others, so maybe only change exposed.
I mean... Even if you remove all of her charges and wait 6 seconds... you will just die 6 seconds later as she can follow you and loose only less than 1m during that time... So you end up being 13 m instead of 12 m away from her when she can blink again... I would rather extend DS to 5 seconds again if it was only for that reason, but with the pallets it is fine I think.
I don't like the plaid flannel idea, since you already somewhat know where her blink will go to, because of how long she charged her blink and where she was looking... The issue is this might make people believe that the spot she is currently aiming at is safe, while she can just flick last second and then you once again have little time to account for that... Also it would do nothing for the second blink because the time is too little to react to it then, even if you see it.
The camera movement thing sounds really annoying... It would not even make her necessarily weaker, but only mess with muscle memory and the ability to flick... Huntress does not have that thing either, and I find it rather annoying on pyramid head and slinger as well... That just seems like an anti-quality of life change... and with the addons it resembles overheat... Introducse an unnecessary mechanic and make it less annoying by addons because you don't have any good addon ideas anyway and need to fill the slots...
The last change would just drain flashlights super fast and I don't think it has much of a value anyway... Currently using flashights against nurse has some pretty hard requirements and you need to be really good at it to make it work... Especially effective wise... So I don't really know what to think about that one... But I'm not very fond of the idea...
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@barsw said:
Her cd and distance addons must be reworked or removed + basic ability cd +7-8 seconds extra to her basic time increase before she can blink again its minimum what must be
Ok, so that makes it fairly obvious that you have no idea of the numbers behind Nurses power... +7-8 seconds to her cooldown?? During this time she will loose distance to the survivor with 0.15 m/s for a total of 1.05 or 1.20m... Nurse already only moves barely faster than Myers in T1:
2 seconds of holding the blink while going 2.89m/s ; 1.5 seconds of travelling 13.33 m/s ; 1.5 seconds of chain blink window 1.54m/s 2 seconds of fatigue 0.96m/s and then 1 second of normal movementspeed so 3.85m/s (to recharge her blink)... The whole process takes 8 seconds and you travel a distance of 33.86 meters... Which makes it 4.2325 m/s on average
This is one blink cycle until she can use her blink again... If you do the math with 10 second cd per blink charge we will get to:
33.86m + (7x3.85m)= 60.81 ... the whole process takes 15 seconds... So now we divide it by 15
60.81 / 15 = 4.054 m/s on average... Wow dude... You gain 5 cm per second on the survivor... This is almost worse than Burger King Myers... Good job on displaying no understanding of the numbers behind nurse... Great job... I mean you couldn't even be bothered to read about the specifics of her power in the wiki before spouting out such nonsense.
Now to a more reasonable thing: Change the range addons, and maybe slightly nerf the cd addons, make it so exposed does not work on her blinks anymore and she is fine.
Also I'm not even sure if the nerf of the recharge addons is really needed... If we take the numbers from above and remove the 1 second of 3.85m/s at the end which would be equal to running both recharge addons we would end up with 4.287 m/s Which is honstly not that much more... Therefore I think the recharge addons should be fine. Range is the bigger problem.
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@Gandor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3278717#Comment_3278717
About the absurd argument. Why do killers use weapons and hooks? It should be a modified game of tag so we don't exclude young audience /s
Full accessibility does not take precedense over everything. If fixing accessibility ruins the game, then maybe the game should not be friendly to fully blind or fully deaf people. If there is an easy fix - say perk that gives advantage together with fixing accessibility issue - say spine chill, then provide that perk as an option for everyone. But please don't make it basekit for every player.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3278678#Comment_3278678
Sure and existance of boons is buff to a killer as survivors spend less time on gens. By this logic we should probably make basekit CoH for everyone and call it a win win.
You know that extended FOV is much better benefit then hindrance. Why are you even trying to sell it as survivor buff?
I don't really see how spine chill as basekit only the part that tells you how close the terror radius is would be that much of an issue? I mean you could even argue about making it less specific... Let's just give it 4 states... full 3/4 2/4 1/4 ... I'll exclude 0 because then the killer is right on top of you so why even bother... I would actually like that idea to have a clue of how close the killer is... I don't see a need to keep that bound to a perk and I also don't think it would be that much of a buff... I mean you can already somewhat tell how close the killer is... And when you don't know the exact distance (so it could be used while looping tiles to know if he is doubling back or coming from a different direction) I don't really see a reason not to implement this... But hey feel free to further elaborate why it would not be a good idea... Because I think if basekit changes improve the game why not just make them.
Yeah sure accessibility does not go above everything but then again the FOV really is not that much of a deal... Nobody wants to give you 360° or something odd like that... They could even test certain things lets say 100° 95° and so on... I don't really know how much is sufficient for most people so maybe just try it out... Also the audacity to claim one side that this whole FOV slider would be a major game change but keeping it as a perk is no issue at all... What is this double standard dude xD It's like saying I can tolerate game breaking stuff as long as it's bound to a perk... This is ridiculous guys xD
So since you don't want this to be in the game since it removes some techs record some videos of showing how a window tech doesn't work or whatever or find something on youtube about that because otherwise I cannot take that serious anymore... We arguing about a simple option... That would be like saying Anti-Aliasing shouldn't be a thing because the game does not have it currently as an option to get rid of blurryness... It perplexes me that you guys think of this as such a big deal... I played Nurse with shadowborn when I first learned her and stopped it because I kept misjudging the distance and it was easier to estimate it properly without it... So I for sure would be one of the people that would not touch that FOV slider at all... Even if you think it gives an objective benefit, when it does not work for someone and they play better/more comfortable without it then why not...
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Dude you're making it sound like +15° FOV is an uber buff that will completely destroy balance what is this dude? xD Such an overreacting Andy xD We don't even know if there was a specific reason to set it to the current FOV or if they just put a random number in... It's not even an even number... most people are uncomfortable with uneven numbers when it comes to for example the volume on their tv or something so why even put 87 in there ? XD
I simply don't understand how you could assume the need to rebalance a game just because of higher FOV xD You make it sound like monitor and abuse and Shadowborn are gamebreaking perks... excuse me man xD
Also I really like the point where you just say people should get better and learn the mechanics when we mostly argue around it being a benefit for people who get motion sick and stuff... Your the one hiding behind excuses pretending a simple FOV slider would be a balancing issue but people being forced to run a certain perk to even be able to play the game without getting sick is not an argument at all, especially the part about colourblind mode earlier... You would have just kept that thing as a perk because it is a balancing issue... If we can even consider this a buff it would be really minor over all...
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@Someissues said:
Black Knight
Headless Knight
For Honor Warden Knight
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/WT6EL4RH1V8S/image.png
Templar / Crusader Knight
so many ideas. the skin we had atm suck to be honest. and the hair is just too weird IMO. please can we have skins without the hairs.
I mean I agree, but atm there are other issues that need to be taken care of, like his entire gameplay xD
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@Gandor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3278247#Comment_3278247
After 530 matches you are bound to encounter best most sweaty SWF group at least a few times by a pure chance. If it wasn't for this high number, I could agree with you.
The alternative solution would be that MM favors alf and does not allow him to play against best survivors, or that there are no best survivors out there (both of these things would point out we do have problem somewhere)
Your missing a thing there... The comp players barely play normal matchmaking, they mostly play custom under tournament rules to practise, and they just don't get practise while stomping trash players (compared to them) in normal matchmaking... Also he did encounter comp squads that tried sniping his streak, just didn't work... At the same time Hens' Squad encountered a comp nurse that presumably tried to end their streak and they won a few times against those...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtENJZ_z0zw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnzBaGxC6eQAnd here we both parties playing against each other...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEZShwyXHN4And Hens isn't even a comp player according to himself... The point is... Both sides can win at this level... But just because you encounter a handful of comp players (even those still vary in skill) does not mean you will automatically loose to them... There is still so much rng... Gen spread, Map rng, what map it is in the first place and so on... The thing why tournaments go in both ways is the limitations in perks and addons and that they don't choose badly designed maps... I've never heard that a serious tourmanet put guys on cowshed or Haddonfield... As far as I know they choose Wreckers Yard or Coaltower quite often... I'm not really that informed here, so correct me if I'm wrong... But when you look at one of the games they played against each other on Midwich... yeah it can still be onesided when you get one of the best maps for the killer sure... But now imagine they were on Lerys or RPD... Completely different outcome...
So I still stay with it's mostly matchmaking...
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DBD stops being a hide and seek game as soon as people know how to loop dude ^^ I still don't understand that it is still called "deadly hide and seek" xD I mean sure, it is an option, but it is often time far more unreliable than everything else... So I guess only use it in really desperate times or when you hope to get lucky :D
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@Gandor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3278255#Comment_3278255
Window tech 100%. 360 and inside techs would become way harder. Even crouch tech would become somewhat harder.
But those are only chase "techs". It does not even consider you would be able to camp better and notice things around you better.
The perk is being used to quite a degree (sure it's by far not a meta perk) even outside people suffering from medical issues. A lot of blights do take this and headaches are totally not the reason for it.
Also colorblind filters are buffs. I have seen what they can do. And they do help a lot (but can make game look very ugly). It's 100% not just QOL. But there is nothing that can be done about them so sure. We can consider them yet another thing that makes the game not perfectly fair. That does not mean we need to add more of those
I don't think so... But hey if you show me a video of the exact same thing with and without shadowborn and there is a clear hint that with shadowborn you can see the survivor hey why not... Also it's still not entirely a buff since you can also get blinded for different angles with higher fov...
Overall just like clolourblind filters it's just such a minor thing and I don't think it's reasonable to make people run that thing because otherwise they'll just get a headache or something...
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@Gandor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3278240#Comment_3278240
Killers having low FOV allows survivors doing some plays they are otherwise not able to do. And you can't dumb-down game so, that everyone can play it if it severly limits the game.
Would you be ok if the game added some kind of humming so that completely blind people can play it? Change weapons and hooks for teddy bears so that small children can play it? I think you see where I am going.
And once again. I am absolutely not against artificially prohibiting killers with motion sickness to play this. All I am asking is to pay the price (perk slot) for the advantage they get out of this (removal of several techs based on visibility). Otherwise everyone would always have max FOV even if they don't suffer from motion sickness.
Why shouldn't they be allowed to play with max FOV? Almost every first person shooter game has an FOV slider and not everyone plays with max FOV, some don't like the feeling of it and only set it to 90 and not 120 or whatever the max is sometimes... Colourblind filters also allow people without colourblindness advantes in seeing on some maps so do you also consider that a Buff and not QOL? And even if both things are a buff those are really minor buffs and you limit the accessability of the game for those players, which I don't think is good idea... Especially since I don't think that it completely removes some techs... I don't even know if it makes the necessarily harder... The crouch FOV tech only takes into account your inability to look closer to the floor sometimes and not the FOV based one to the sides... Therefore I would need further carlification whichs techs exactly would get removed by this?
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@Gandor said:
Nurse needs nerfs. Simple reason - one of best soloQ players can get to winstreak of 34 in a literal year. His win rate is somewhere around 50% (give or take - it's just a guess so don't be angry if it's in fact 57,23751%). One of best nurse has a winstreak of 530 games and still counting - so his win rate is 100%. Do you think this is balanced stuff?
Just to repeat myself. Nurse needs nerfs to be more in line with other killers. I am not specifying, if it's basekit. I am not specifying if it is blink attack counting as M2. All I am saying is, that she in current state is unhealthy broken. I am not even comparing her to weak killers (that objectively need buffs). All I am saying is, that nurse is unhealthy OP right now.
TL:DR
The outcome is not balanced, but fair... The whole match itself is not fair though most of the time...That does not necessarily have to do with Nurse as a character but more likely with bad matchmaking not putting together players of equal skill leading to unbalanced matches, that are mmr wise considered onesided, as the very skilled player is always expected to win against average players... I do think it is fair that someone like Alf who basically plays Nurse at comp level is able to beat the average DBD players he gets matched with (in general) in normal matchmaking...
I do not agree that this should be the outcome if the match was fair... But since it was not fair (most of the times) from the beginning... The outcome that a player who is highly skilled wins against far worse players is fair... Because if we compare that to other games... Sc2 : If Serral is expected to have a reasonable chance to loose against a Platinum Player that would crazy... Same goes for Dota2: When the best team in the world has a reasonable chance to loose against an average of players, not even necessarily in comms... This is the main issue...
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@Gandor said:
Nurse needs nerfs. Simple reason - one of best soloQ players can get to winstreak of 34 in a literal year. His win rate is somewhere around 50% (give or take - it's just a guess so don't be angry if it's in fact 57,23751%). One of best nurse has a winstreak of 530 games and still counting - so his win rate is 100%. Do you think this is balanced stuff?
Just to repeat myself. Nurse needs nerfs to be more in line with other killers. I am not specifying, if it's basekit. I am not specifying if it is blink attack counting as M2. All I am saying is, that she in current state is unhealthy broken. I am not even comparing her to weak killers (that objectively need buffs). All I am saying is, that nurse is unhealthy OP right now.
Yes I think this is somewhat balanced and I will explain you why... The Nurse player is in full controll of his whole team, since he is the only player there... The solo survivor player has some disadvantages compared to a SWF 1. The other players are probably most of the time weaker than him 2. He lacks communication with his teammates which reduces efficiency and knowledge about which tiles are already used 3. He only needs to die once for the streak to end and in some scenarios e.g. when you get facecamped you just die no matter what you do... Also some killers make it basically impossible to safe against them... Bubba, Trickster, Huntress... You will die before you can unhook and if you don't coordinate well it is just not going to work....
When we now compare a SWF with comms to Alfs 500 winstreak we get to like 220 wins in row or something like that? That's what Hens333 and his friends did... And there was also a 500 games winstreak from a different survivor group, but that one is older and they used items and I think had no perk limitations... Hens' group didn't use the same perk more than two times and items only when they got them in the trial... So when we compare those two groups it seems rather fine to me... In the end they lost against a comp Nurse I think, but as far as I know they also beat some comp players on the way there...
But now for the reason why I don't find this comparrison suitable... The problem here is not necessarily the balance of killer or survivor... Even though I admit that there is a huge difference between the worst and the best killer in the game and that against a comp squad of survivors only very few killers are actually viable... I would like to add that I think it is a good thing when easier to play/get good at/master killers perform weaker overall than hard to learn killer, I don't necessarily think that Nurse is the hardest killer in the game, because that is most likely billy... And to be honest, I don't want every killer to be viable against a comp squad... Because there is only so much skill involved in playing Legion or Trapper and many others where I just don't think you need to be that good to master them and at that point I think it is rather unfair because I believe mastering survivor takes far more effort than mastering Legion or Trapper... When it comes to mechanical skill.. I don't want to neglect that trapper requires a lot of game knowledge and so on... But his whole playstyle is designed in a way where I don't think he can ever be changed to be viable against comp players overall... But that as a sidenote...
Why I think that the comparisson does not fit is matchmaking... If the matchmaking was accurate and you match players of equal skill against each other like in Starcraft 2 or Dota 2 or whatever game then such a thing should never be possible... But since the matchmaking in this game does not match people accurately, Because there are just not enough good players to be matched against Alf or Hens and his Squad they will most of the time get far weaker opponents... Because there a lot of average killer and survivor players in this game and not enough really really good ones... This leads to unbalanced matches, as the devs already stated before... What they said was something like the system is actually really good in determining the outcome of a match based upon mmr, the only problem is there are not enough players of similar rating to match people appropriately and this leads to unbalanced matches and outcomes like 500 + winstreaks... But the only two options are 1. have immensely long queues to find matches and then not even be guaranteed to find a match or 2. have rather unbalanced matches but get a guaranteed one after x amount of minutes... The reasonable thing was to go for the second option because otherwise the game would just die or people would just only play custom, because no one can be bothered to wait that long for a game... Dowsey had a 2 h queue on his twins some time ago... And I will also admit that this is not necessarily only a problem with DBD... In Dota 2 the streamer Wagamama had 1-2 h long queues when he played unranked with his friends... For the same reason as we have here... Not enough players of equal skill... But Dota does not have an option that just throws you an unbalanced game so you don't have to wait that long... I have to say I prefer DBD thing because at some point people would just stop playing otherwise... like wagamama stopped playing unranked with his friends because he could not be bothered to wait that long, which is fully understable...
In summon... I think it is good that some killers, when mastered, are able to compete against really strong survivor players... Because otherwise they would just get a free win everytime... I don't mind setting a higher skill ceiling for some of those killers but I think Nurse has still a higher skill ceiling than spirit... And Spirit is really not that much worse especially MDR spirit... The main problem that leads to results like this is bad matchmaking not being able to find similiar skilled players and put them in the same match... And when this happens the outcome that a guy who has mastered one of this killers that is capable of competing against comp survivors is that not that unbalanced... Because he has mastered his killer with several thousand hours of playtime... And he is going against some average dbd players, maybe even solos... How would it be balanced if those managed to win? This would be like saying that the best Dota 2 team should have a reasonable chance to loose against some average Dota 2 players... That's just not a thing... The biggest problem is matchmaking... (Some Nerfs on Addons of Nurse, Spirit, Blight would be fine, Comp also has limitations because some addons are just too broken... But winstreaks of very skilled players are just not a good example to why a killer is considered op if matchmaking is this bad...) I fully understand the frustration when someone gets stomped by some player(s) that are far more skilled then themselves, but it is just not necessarily the killers fault but more likely the fault of the matchmaking... Also those cases are really rare, because as stated before highly skilled players are not that many, because otherwise, the matchmaking could actually do its job and match them with each other, which it cannot... So probably in 1 out of 50 games or even less you will get stomped because matchmaking put you against someone too good... (Maybe in the same game your teammates got unlucky and were underskilled for that opponent) but overall it is just really rare to get matched against those kind of players...
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3278157#Comment_3278157
dead dog saloon inside window is pretty easy to fast vault though. I can't think of any window that is hard to fast vault. As I said, basic survivor skill imo.
A 4 lane in between the walls on the right side (And since most of those 4 lanes have a narrower side in the right lane, in this case, you cannot even fast vault it from both directions):
I think that one is rather rough to fast vault... It will take quite a lot of work to get that done consitantly... Same goes for any other window with same narrow space...
I don't know if the window at rancid abatooir can be fast vaulted, I don't think so.. Cow tree from the other direction... The dump truck on Azarovs, the window in iron works mainbuilding bottom floor from the outside, short wall jungle gym windows from the outside on azarovs,
There are quite a lot of windows with narrow spaces that make it hard to fast vault them and require some practise to do consistantly...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIPNKuUn1MkI don't want to say it is the hardest thing to do, but it needs some practise and that's something I consider you need to accomplish to reach the survivor skill cap.
Also how can you say: " I can't think of any window that is hard to fast vault. As I said, basic survivor skill imo." But before that you mentioned Ayruns video on a really tricky to pull off fast vault xD How does this fit together man xD
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3278135#Comment_3278135
fast vaulting windows is pretty basic imo. Ayrun had a video recently where he was vaulting suffocation pit window. i think it would be cool if survivor could do a critical-fast window vault where pressing the button at the correct time does a fast vault instead of a medium vault. I kinda wish there was a greater skill-cap to fast vaulting and medium vaulting windows rather then x distance means you cannot fast vault and y distance means you can. something comparable to headshots in fps games. in general, i wish window vaulting was more rewarding and safe pallet looping was less strong.
I mean... you do have to press it at a critical point? When you have reached enough distance so basically right when you are colliding with the wall... That's not a basic skill... These kind of windows are really rough to fast vault, and that's exactly what I meant.... When you have a lot of space you can fast vault them rather early and not care much about timing, but when the space is narrow you need to execute it properly... And that's pretty skillfull I think...
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3278106#Comment_3278106
high skill-ceiling? you mean low skill-ceiling. survivor have high skill-floor. they have to learn how to play against all 30 killers in the chase and learn the maps but once they learn the maps and how to approach the killer powers, their gameplay is just rush gens and perform well in chases. The stuff your describing is compare to killer following scratch marks, seeing the birds fly, knowing their max distance for an m1 attack, knowing what positions to reverse moonwalk their red glow. your describing basic survivor gameplay.
I would say the skill floor as survivor consists of using pallets and windows, nothing more... Everything that goes beyond that is somewhere between floor and ceiling...
What I meant with aligning for a fast vault was for example in a 4 wall or on Saloon the upper window from the inside... When you are able to align a fast vault with little space...
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Even Survivors have a fairly high skill ceiling when we consider chaining tiles, aligning your position for a fast vault and all the other stuff around proper positioning... When you look at how comp or 1v1 players loop you cannot compare that to most people... Even people with higher amount of hours above 2-3 k hours play comparibly worse in huge way... Just because you survive easily many times does not mean you've reached the skill ceiling... You can have many thousands of hours in this game and still not be close to have reached the skill ceiling.
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@C3Tooth said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3277374#Comment_3277374
Technically when I see a killer that tunnel one out of the game before 2 Gens done (or even 5 Gens still stand), I will drop a pallet, make noise for killer to come, and I stand next to the hook asking to kill me.
I see you desperate for 4K, so here is a free kill.
Fair, especially when killer queues are long and survivor queues are basically instant... He can go wait in queue for another 10 minutes just for no gameplay again if decides he needs it so bad...
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@ByeByeQ said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3277961#Comment_3277961
I don't need to make a case. I am fairly certain the hatch is here to stay.
Without the hatch, even if the last survivor manages to finish the last gen they end up giving away their position with the gen pop and face a near-certain death.
If you want to convince BHVR to do away with the hatch you need to make a better case. I haven't seen anyone provide a good alternative to the hatch. If you've seen one point me to it. Some vague "show survivor auras if they're not doing anything" idea just isn't it.
I play a lot of SoloQ and the hatch is one of the few things that make it even remotely bearable. Most of the time the killer finds it first because they move faster, don't have to worry about getting caught and can zone the survivor. It can make the 1v1 at the end of the game interesting if they don't slug the second-last survivor.
Do you not feel like you've won if you only get a 3k?
Like I said before... endgame chase... Auras are shown to both until a chase gets started or they are a certain distance away from each other and then a timer starts, when the timer ends the game ends... The survivor (and maybe even the killer) get increased bp gains for that chase... If the survivor can stay alive for the entire chase they gain either a huge amount of bp or even an escape... That way both sides have to earn it... The specifics are up for debate let's say if some pallets respawn ... let's say the amound of broken pallet's is below... 20% or so then it respawns some pallets spread around the map or so... Just to make it not too easy...
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@LilyGoatDemon said:
No one "deserves" to get a kill or an escape, full stop.
Hatch is a good healthy mechanic for the game, because the games don't drag out for hours.
They don't "rob" Killers of kills, because a metric ton of Killers will just slug at 2 Survivors left to deny Hatch. I feel like THAT is an infinitely more annoying thing than Killers "losing" a kill because of Hatch existing.
Which is another reason to replace the whole thing with something like a final chase, so there is no reason slug the survivor anymore... I don't think it is a healthy mechanic since it does not take anything into account other than luck in principle at least... Yeah you can drag the chase out long enough to maybe reach the hatch, but in general you have no idea where it spawned so you're just guessing where to run...
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@ByeByeQ said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3277461#Comment_3277461
If there is no hatch and there are any generators left and only 1 survivor left as soon as the killer finds them they are guaranteed dead. They would literally have no hope to survive. The best they could do is drag out the match with their last chase. Worst case scenario is they don't get found, hide and try to hold the killer in the game for as long as possible.
The off chance you speak of is such a longshot it's not relevant.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3277482#Comment_3277482
All of these "delete hatch" threads never suggest a replacement mechanic so you're full of it.
The last survivor somehow managed to outlast the other survivors. Unless they hid all match and did nothing it's not a free escape.
The alternative is the killer gets the last kill for free, is that so much better?
I explained a rather detailed mechanic to replace hatch, so either you didn't read it or you just ignored it... so those 90% really don't apply here.
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@not_requested49 said:
Uh.. how tf can you get two downs on healthy survivors with billy? Thats literally not possible, billy's chainsaw can only target 1 person..
Probably when you down one before he can unhook and the second one while he unhooks, so with bad timing/coordination I guess?
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3277490#Comment_3277490
It takes a minimum of 180 seconds to do all 5 gens, just based off of raw manpower. You only need (90 x 2) to complete that objective, no perks/items/addons/anything. There is a reason the gates being powered/EGC is considered a phase of the game and not the game already being over, because the objective to get there is hilariously short when not accounting for the other factors involved.
Ignoring time walking from spawn to gen to next gen to gate and so on, but yeah.
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@Terion said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3277383#Comment_3277383
DC alredy is rampant rn tbh. However i agree on removing hatch would be bad.
People DC for a large amound of reasons, I find some valid others not... But I don't think we can ever have a game where nobody dcs... Even in other games that are considered fairly balanced people dc for no apparent reason.
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@JustAnotherNewbie said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3277505#Comment_3277505
I don't care your point about ruin and pain res. Care to clarify? I understand they delay gens but how is that related to end-game? If the gens are done, those perks are irrelevant. Is that what you mean? So you compensate with other end game perks?
What I wanted to say is that a perk that delays the lenght of the game for a certain amound, like Grim Embrace, No way out, deadlock and so on... They all just delay the game but the time at which they delay the game varies... So does it really matter if the game is dealyed for 1 minute while you still need to work gens (Grim Embrace) or when the gens are done and the gates get blocked (No way out) ... Yes I know the conditions to activate are different, but I hope you understand what I wanted to say... It does not really matter at which point in the game the 1 minute delay happens, as long as it does happen...
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@MerleDixon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3277376#Comment_3277376
You do realize that no kills or escapes are necessarily deserved..... right?
Yes not necessarily... But generally speaking... The majority of games you hopefully don't get camped, if I'm wrong with that I admire your willpower XD what I want to say is the large majority of games where someone gets a 3 k they hopefully didn't get it with cheap tricks... And even with noed, which I consider a rather cheap trick the point is the killer will usually camp or slug and not necessarily be able to protect his totem and the gates as well... So in those cases the hatch usually won't help you much anyway... For my idea with the certain amount of chase time till the game ends I would even think about deactivatingsome perks that otherwise reduce it too much... Like NOED, Devour or sth. like that... probably not all chase perks, but at least the exposed ones I guess, but as for everything else this is also up for debate.
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@JustAnotherNewbie said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3277376#Comment_3277376
If survivors do all gens and killer has not managed to 3 hook one single survivor thne killer should leave them go. Why do end-game perks exist for Killers? Just let survivors get their well deserved 4 escape.
I would agree for NOED, as I think it rewards players for playing poorly and still managing to get more out of it than they deserve, however other endgame perks only delay the game for some time, that could have also been achieved at a different point in the game... Therefore I cannot entirely agree with it... If we consider no way out or remember me... That delay you got there could have also been ruin, or pain rez or whatever... whereas I don't think those kind of perks are comparable to noed...
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@Rovend said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3277450#Comment_3277450
Why are second chance perks disabled in endgame?
Because they basically guaranteed a free escape when you manage to unhook the person... With BT and proper play you can still get people out...
Also I don't just want to get rid of hatch and do nothing about the hopelessness of the last survivor... But I want there to be some other interaction than just patrolling two points or luck based finding or not finding hatch... Just some fun chase interaction to finish the game off would be great in my opinion, that's what was the thing I wanted to adress with my idea.
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@barsw said:
It seems you are flying in clouds or just delusional if you think you will loop a lot of nurses
I think you can loop most nurses, I'm pretty sure about that... I'm not necessarily saying that I can do that particularly, but I had some success with it while in the same game others went down like flies... But at least she offers more counterplay and chase interaction than other killers...
Yeah if someone has mastered Nurse there is not much you can do, but most nurses are just not that good...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUEWl9BLLao
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoYBKyGD63sThese are the nurses you can face in normal matchmaking... And you cannot even call them low mmr or something because the survivors in the clip are really really good...
The point is most players in DBD are just not that good... And if the player is not that good there is just a lot you can do about it... Even comp nurses can loose games against strong(er) opponents and mediocre nurses will get rolled against really good survivors... So the statement is just plain wrong... If you are a really really good survivor player and the map allows it (just like with most killers) you can loop Nurse for a fair amount of time... and the best thing is nurse does not get stronger the longer the game lasts, as you don't get rid of pallets... The map stays as strong as it is in the beginning... (mostly...)
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3277376#Comment_3277376
"of their deserved 4k" you don't deserve anything. you failed to catch the final survivor in time.
There are some times when you physically cannot catch the fourth survivor... Because hatch spawned literally under there feet... Also why should the last survivor even have the possibility to get hatch at all? Your entire team is dead, given that you didn't finish all gens and open the gate you clearly lost... So why should you deserve to escape? You failed to accomplish the objective to deserve the escape... Escaping by pure luck from a killer who outperformed you and hindered you from reaching your objective does not seem fair to me... If you as killer reached the goal of not letting survivors finish all gens you deserve to get all 4 of them generally speaking...
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@barsw said:
Its not that difficult to use that system there are plenty of games that have it.You get players around your skill but not bots
Those games are not asymmetrical, therefore they have better conditions to "measure" skill... Both parties use the same tools to beat the opponent, but that's not what happens in DBD ... How would you measure skill in this game? Tell me, because I have no clue... Chase time? How would it work against stealth killers... Pallet efficiency? Wouldn't work because some maps have weaker or stronger pallets and some killers don't care about pallets and don't even need to kick them others will just munch through it... What do you think would be an accurate system to measure skill in this game?
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@barsw said:
Nerfing overpowered killer is normal .This hard nerfs must be a lot of people share mine opinion .Only typical morons that are scared for their precious nurse are scared because they wont have anymore easy matches .And the problem not only because a lot of people are vegetables and dont know how to play againts her the problem how i said above too many people know how to abuse this killer and this kind of things must be nerfed .You wont survive longer than 20-30 srconds againts smart nurse not matter you skill .This kind of power must be decreased hard.
A Nurse without addons takes longer than 20-30 seconds to down someone... Also you will always find people that can loop nurse for a longer time... Not every nurse knows what she is doing, most nurses can be looped... And I find it quite fun to go against... breaking line of sight, changing my pathing and so on... Also what do you even mean by abusing? How can you abuse nurse?
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@drsoontm said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3277385#Comment_3277385
That seems a bit complicated. The hatch is a very good KISS example. I don't see a reason to make it more difficult.
The good reason is that it is rng heavy and annoying for both sides... Also patrolling gates is on of the most annoying things to do... Even if the gates are not entirely bad (in a way where you can never patrol them effectively) ... It is still so much around luck...
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@drsoontm said:
The hatch's sole purpose is to allow the game to progress and end instead of having a survivor hiding forever.
Either the survivor takes it, ether the killer closes it and the game will end in the next four minutes or so.
How about we change that... When only one survivor is left and the gates are not opened yet killers and survivors aura are revealed to each other until a chase is started (ignoring stealth mechanics so ghostface cannot just oneshot you as that would counteract the following idea completely...) When the chase starts a timer starts and the bp you get during that time is doubled, and if you survive the time (that depends on the killer you are going against... so maybe less time against blight nurse or spirit...) you will get like 5-10k bp? Somthing massive like that to motivate players to try their best in the final chase... But no matter what the game ends after the timer ends. You could even argue about restoring some pallets so it does not just end in 30 seconds if your team already wasted everything...
That way the killer doesn't have to sweat for the 4k with slugging and so on and the survivor can get something out of it as well... I would say it is even up for debate to just give the survivor an automatic escape if the killer cannot hit/down them during duration of that event... But that would put some killers at a disadvantage... Could be annoying for Hag or Trapper for example :/ You cannot really make them go where you trapped necessarily...
The specifics are up for debate, but what I want in general is less rng and something else than hatch... A killer that already got 3 guys without the gates being opened shouldn't loose the fourth just because of bad luck... And what this would do as well is when you are the one guy that survived because the killer gave up chase on you everytime, because you were not the weak link than you have choice to escape by just playing better than the killer in a situation where he has nothing else to do but chase you...
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
If hatch is removed, ceteris paribus, the only thing that'll happen is that stealth when 2 survivors, and when 1 survivor, remains will increase tenfold, dragging out the game needlessly and just plummeting the enjoyment of any endgame scenarios.
But at least the killer won't get robbed as much anymore of their deserved 4k just because of random rng with hatch... only door rng stays... well better than nothing I guess...
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If we go in order of how important a fix is then this thing is gonna be last ... Demodoggo is great and all... But seriously I'd rather have important stuff fixed and keep demo on the stealthy side...
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The point is the people who actually knew how to do curves and stuff almost always used crack billy or even double engravings... And I don't think you reasonably complain about that. Instasaw yeah sure, that's bs and a no brainer many times so sure, give that thing all the hate you want... But not Curve billy...
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@Emeal said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/DB6I6ODBHJ0H/image.png
Hillbilly Nerf Denial is a real conspiracy in this community. You would think it hard for a person to deny other people's experiences and perspectives in two paragraphs. But here we are. To set the record straight, No there were complaints and no it was not fun to go against and YES, people actually tried to go against it and they failed too often, bHVR agreed Billy was too strong. Yikes man, BIG Yikes.
Insta saw was too strong and bad players complained... Since even then good players knew how to deal with a good billy...
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@Someissues said:
hill billy is bad in camp lol
Not the best camper but I would say at least on the better half... He has an instadown that's more than most killers have ...
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I didn't say it is op... Where do you even get that... I only said it is boring to go against because you don't really have chase interaction but only leave the loop and try to get to some other loop and when you cannot reach another loop because you are either in a dead zone, took bad pathing or the pallet has been broken already you get hit...
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@Someissues said:
This is some next level of BS, you can place a guard to patrol on a Loop, but the moment you does any smart survivors will instantly run to the next loop. and it takes forever to recharge the guard and they disappear so fast. no u wont get a Hit. there's delay when you place guard and you lose bloodlust.
all survivors I versed none of them stay in the area with the guard when I place it on the loop, they run straight to the next and by the time I'm there there's a pellet for him and he's already safe
go and record some of ur gameplay for us to see cuz it sounds like ur in really low mmr
That's the whole point... but what if there is no loop they can reach in time? Then they get hit... And that's exactly what I said before dude...
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#########... Looks darker than my old game boy advance, I feel you buddy...
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Agreed man, the overheat is just too much... But I like Otz's suggestion since with this you do not create safe zones around camped survivors... Also Addons buffs would be great as most of his current addons are just useless...
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3276132#Comment_3276132
how is it killer's problem that the game is getting balanced for survivor to 1vs1 the killer?
The game was always about the 1v1 chase interaction... What do you even mean by that? At least against dredge or Artist you can try to back before you reach the critical point and make them use their teleport/bird preemtively to miss... Even though I wouldn't consider that significant enough it is still more than you can do against the knight...
There should not be a single killer in the game where you need the help of another survivor in chase to do something significant against them...
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3276329#Comment_3276329
he is weak though. artist gameplay is not effective vs fast gens. you can do same thing with brutal strength perk on the corner of maps. he is super fun to 1vs1 as survivor, but is completely pointless to play as the killer himself. you get to bully the m1 killer in chase and win every game without much effort. I think this is how every survivor main would design killers powers. The power only works in very very niche situations and does nothing/misses for 90% of the match regardless for how good the killer is at using the ability.
This is why I do not agree with Artist being 4th best killer in the game(Otz tier-list). Knight by this logic would be 5th best....
Doesn't matter if you agree or not but showmatches against comp players have shown good results on artist... So I don't really think there is much to disagree with... Artist is one of the best Killers in the game...
How is he fun to vs as survivor? Alle he does is put his guard down at a loop and either you reach another one or you just get hit? There is no chase interaction where you can use to skill as survivor to get out on top? The power works on basically every loop, put it down and sandwich the survivor and if he can't find another loop he just dies.
And no Knight is not the 5th best by that logic... The Artist can pressure gens across the map with birds and force survivors to let go of the gen or get hit otherwise, while making their way over there, and can get hits through structures ... That's a big difference...
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@Unimatrix00 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3276480#Comment_3276480
Stacking up on gens works great. You get them done much more quickly, especially with Prove Thyself. You can often finish the generator before the killer even comes around. Move to the next generator, rinse and repeat.
Stacking on gens is less efficient than doing them by yourself... Without prove you have the following data:
Also stacking brings the risk of more than one survivor being interrupted in doing the objective while you could only ever interrupt one survivor when you spread out properly... Besides that you might enable the killer to snowball if he already has more than one survivor so close...
It is generally a better idea to spread out... Especially against killers like Oni, Legion, Nurse, Blight, Spirit and so on... All killers with good chase power that can get hits in a high frequency... Stacking up against Oni when he has his power is probably the worst... It can just end your game if he knows what he is doing...
You will do gens faster alone as you don't suffer from an efficiency penalty that way... Stacking up is the worst thing you can do...
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@barsw said:
Nope too many people know how to play her if you would play with randoms 90% of players are trash and they fall in 5 seconds with that killer its not normal .If they nerf her it must be hard increasing cd ability nerfing addons and etc .In the past when Billy was overpowered his mains were screaming everywhere that he is balanced and bla bla bla its only because this players are lazy to play walking killers and they want ez matches it shouldnt be like that .All mobile killers must have balance .
The problem about Billy was only insta saw against good survivors you had the same issue you have these days, those guys know their positioning and won't get downed that easily... As for too many people knowing how to play Nurse... I would disagree here... there are some really really good players but most the players you will encounter during matchmaking are just average and be delayed for quite some time you break line of sight and so on... And arguing that players are terrible at the game and therefore get wrecked by a killer player that knows what he is doing just sounds terrible... Oh no little Timmy with 20 hours gets downed instantly against compplayer McCompplayer... Let's nerf that killer... I mean... that's just a general issue... If you get guys that don't know what they are doing they won't know against other killers either...
Also you need to take into account that nurse without addons does not have that good mobility... she moves with a little bit more than 4.2 m/s on average when using only one blink... So holding w is already quite strong against her when you get a large map...
Nerfing a killer just because people don't know what they are doing is just beyond unreasonable...
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@barsw said:
And yet all this years promises about matchmaking for your skill and etc and still no move .At least if 2 people are playing good why they get in party with low skill bots that falling in 5 seconds .This kind of low skill players must play only with each other and dont be a burden for stronger players if you are playing without full party .
I think it pairs players together in a way that their average goes as close as possible to the killers mmr...
But to get to the bigger issue... The system prioritises queue time over fairness... So after X amount of minutes you will get a match no matter what ... they made a survey about what amound of queue time is fine and what is the longest people should wait... I think a few months ago? Maybe half a year? Not sure anymore... But I think what they came up with was somewhere between 7 and 10 minutes... So if you reach that amount of queue time the range of mmr that can match with you is so massive that you'll basically be guaranteed to get a match asap. So it is bad to get a very short or a very long queue, you want to be in the middle...
- If you have a very short queue that can mean somebody is already waiting for ages, there is a lack of players playing your role so you gonna get those guys that already waited for 10 minutes, which can mean you are either gonna get stomped or gonna get completely new players... But overall the balance of the match will be terrible
- The same goes for a very long queue... The range of mmr that can match with you has extended so much that you'll just get whoever... So you are now in the other parties position from the example above... Same terrible balance for this match as well...
The issue is they cannot really fix this... Because the system would match you accordingly if there was somebody matching your skill, but since there are just some mmr ranges I have to assume that don't have enough players on one or the other side or when it is a time of the day where just not too many people play the game, in those cases you will just not get balanced matches...
If you can come up with a solution that would be great... Because I cannot really think of one... The only thing might be an option to remove the maximum wait time, so you personally can decide you want to wait 20-30-40 whatever minutes so you get a more balanced match... But setting that the standard for matchmaking in general would be terrible... Because let's be honest here... Nobody has time to wait 30 minutes for a 10-15 minute long game...