AlwaysInAGoodShape
AlwaysInAGoodShape
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Okey, so this is how you would reach up tiers:
- Activate Frenzy. (Your bar is now depleting)
- Hit your first survivor for the first time (you now enter tier 2)(Your bar is refilled with a new total amount)
- Hit your the 2nd survivor for the first time. (you are now tier 3)(Your bar is refilled with a new total amount)
- Hit your 3rd survivor for the first time. (you are now tier 4)(Your bar is refilled with a new total amount)
- Hit your 4th survivor for the first time. (you are not tier 5.)(Your bar is refilled with a new total amount)
If you made it to tier 5 and for whatever the other 3 survivors are still within range, you can now mow them down.
Technically speaking, you could us frenzy to down 4 survivors with a total of 8 hits, faster than any other killer. It's just that the survivors have tools (positioning and hiding) to defend themselves against this from happening.
Note that the moment you leave frenzy you drop back to tier 1. Note that if you go for a second hit against a survivor (and you're not in tier 5), you will apply the effects of that tier and then drop back to tier 1.
A visual example of a Legion attacking 3 different survivor and attacking the 3rd one for a second time:
(Knife represents a hit)
(Skull represents the Quick Cut status effect) -
I feel like, if you want to have a case against hex ruin you should argue about how Hex: Ruin targets predominantly players against whom it's least needed, whereas better players can work through it.
You should accept that Hex: Ruin will slow the game down just a little bit, but take that opportunity to ask for a way to make Hex: Ruin a more consistent perk, meaning less workarounds (great skillchecks) and more consistent delays. (no overdose of skillchecks/underdose) etc
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You also have access to it and so do I, and it's basically the strongest thing to do. That is why it works in League of Legends as well, or any other strategy game. At a higher level (or rank) you know what to do. All communication is in some shape or form pre-established.
These are called expectations, and we have a lot of them.
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They also had some pre-established communication
I have that same pre-established communication, and everybody that has a brain has that pre-established communication.
Similar to how people would know to got botlane with an ADC and a Support In LoL. That form of pre-established communication is available for everybody. Any form of pre-established communication is actually.
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Dude, the game is very balanced for solo players.
watches the no communication depip squad depip over 90% of the killers. *
insert okey meme *
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Although I like your attempt at solving the Legion's problem, it's hard for me to consider it a good idea, because, apart from anything you came up with, I believe it's build on fundamentally clunky mechanics.
What is wrong with the Legion?
In Dead By Daylight we like to keep things icon; easy to understand. Many of the ideas around DBD, such as Lockers for hiding, Pallets for throwing, etc. make so much sense to us as they are easy to understand.
The developers decided to do something similar with the Health System: Healthy > Injured > Dying state. Easy, right?
Although it works great conceptually, it's very limiting in the rate at which a killer should be able to attack someone because every killer kills in 2 hits (or at best 1).
With a 0-100 Hit Point system where every killer would do 50 damage, the devs would have a lot more variety and room for variation; changing it so that you start bleeding at a certain HP range (say 80) and you start bleeding more frequently depending on how much damage you have exactly.But what IF we want to be able to have a killer that hits people more frequently, without being overpowered? Well, this is where we corner ourselves; because of our lack of having a more dynamic health system, we create a new health system (similar to what is mentioned above) and have that run at the same time as the traditional DBD health system!
Then we'll artificially create some amount of interplay between the 2, even being it one-sided!Our desires for the dynamic HP system leads us here: Some suggest that when in the injured state, DW should start at 50%, effectively being exactly what I mentioned, but the DW playing as a more dynamic HP bar allowing for 75% and 25% Hp hits, etc. In short we really try to make it work... but hell does it feel unnatural having this intermediate health-system compensate.
Even worse is the Current Health system, where the interplay between the 2 separate health-system stop working together once someone entered the Injured state.
When we look at this killer we see weirdness. Why is there no difference between hitting a hurt or healthy survivor? Why can I not see scratchmarks when in Frenzy?
Well, the answer is, we've gotten too technical by trying to build on a fundementally flawed killer.When searching for "Legion" in the searches, I see most debates stabilising and agreeing on building on top of these flawed mechanics.
But I think I have an Alternative:
We already have a great killer here!
You read that right. Conceptually, this killer is great! When I found out that they made a mechanic that allows you to effectively deal with grouped survivors I got excited and was impressed by the Devs.
Uncounciously we already know who the Legion really is:
-He stabs frequently
-He is good at moving over various obstacles
-He's a shredder of groupsLet's turn this killer in something great.
My suggestion will feel weird as it's very non-conforming to the current direction of the Legion debate.
My suggestion is only loyal to the concept of the killer and will do everything to avoid building on top of flawed mechanics and conceptually dull technicalities.An alternative.
How he'll play:
The (new) Legion is a killer that is good at shredding groups. He benefits from survivors who like to stick together. He jumps from target to target and the more he hits, the stronger he gets. When he finds a survivor alone, he generally will be able to catch them, but after inflicting damage, he'll most likely have lost them.Definitions:
-Deep Wounds:Deep wounds is an effect applied to a survivor that triggers a timer. This timer can be stopped by mending for 16 seconds. (8 seconds with a teammate). The timer always ticks. whether in a chase or not, except when you're mending.
-Quick Cuts:
Quick cuts is a delayed hit of any nature. It works like a status effect applied to a survivor, like exhaustion. While this status effect is active on a survivor, a killer (through whatever ability) can then trigger Quick Cuts, removing it and applying the hit with whatever intensity. Note here that the effect of Quick Cuts is not always the same, in as far is it signals it will be able to trigger a delayed hit of any nature on you.
-Frenzy-Stun
The Frenzy stun is a stun the Legion can receive (Typically after depleting the frenzy bar or hitting a survivor for the 2nd time while in frenzy). During this stun, the Legion stares at the ground while looking at his hands, completely losing vision of the environment for X amount of seconds. During this duration and 5 seconds after, he's unable to see scratchmarks and blood. (The scratchmarks and blood are not deleted. Their alpha is reduces, similar to the spirit until they start to fade back in.)
-First Hit
The first hit refers to the first hit against a unique survivor during this instance of frenzy. Meaning that at best, you could get 4 first hits off if you hit every survivor once, until you are forced to go for a second hit. That it is called the first hit doesn't mean that it's the first hit in the game, or against that survivor ever. It's exclusively defined by this instance of activating Frenzy until it is depleted.
-Second Hit
See first hit. The second hit refers to the second time you hit the same survivor during the same instance of activating Frenzy. Theoretically you could get 4 second hits off if you already hit all 4 survivors once with your first hit.
-Sudden Death
Sudden Death is a status effect that allows a killer to mori that player.
-Red Frenzy Glow
This is the glow survivors will gain after they've been hit for the first time. It is important to do it this way around so that other survivors who might be hiding aren't unfairly exposed.
-Red Frenzy Indicator
This is the red symbol you see during frenzy, that show you the location of the survivors.
His power:
His power is revolving around the Frenzy bar. When frenzy is active, he can vault pallets and windows fast, see scratchmarks as ever before and he can hit a survivor, what is defined as "a first time' and "a second time".Whenever the Legion hits a target for the First Time, he refills his frenzy bar completely, Moves up 1 tier (up to 5) and applies "Quick Cuts".
As the second hit is "the combo closer", the second hit will trigger the effect of quick cuts on all the survivors except the survivor receiving the second hit.
Depending on what tier you were it, the effects of your second hit and Quick Cuts are increased.The Legion wants to hit as many survivors before going for his second hit. The higher his tier, the more people he will have Quick Cuts applied to and the stronger the effect of quick cut gets.
Because your first and second hit gets stronger the higher your tier is, you want to hit as many survivors before ending your streak by attack a survivor twice.
If you manage to hit all 4 survivors, you will be in tier 5, which will turn you into a machine-gun as later defined.The exact details:
Tier 1:
-The Frenzy-bar timer is relatively short
First Hit: (The first hit that brings you up in that tier is described in that tier. (see tier 2)
**Second Hit: ** (impossible to get as you jump to tier 2 after your first hit)Tier 2:
-The Frenzy-bar timer is significantly increased from tier 1.
First Hit: Apply quick cut to the target hit.
**Second Hit: **
If Healthy: Injures a survivor.
If Injured: Brings a survivor to the Dying State.
-You receive the Legion-Stun for 7 seconds.Tier 3:
-The Frenzy-bar timer is slightly increased from tier 2.
First Hit: Apply quick cut to the target hit.
**Second Hit: **
If Healthy: Injures a survivor and applies a Traditional Borrow Time effect for 25 seconds.
If Injured: Brings a survivor to the Dying State.
-You receive the Legion-Stun for 5 seconds.
-Triggers Quick Cuts: The Survivor affected by quick cuts gain Deep Wounds.Tier 4:
-The Frenzy-bar timer is slightly increased from tier 2.
First Hit: Apply quick cut to the target hit.
**Second Hit: **
If Healthy: Instantly downs a survivor.
If Injured: Downs a survivor.
-You receive the Legion-Stun for 3 seconds.
-Triggers Quick Cuts: The Survivor affected by quick cuts get Injured + receive Deep Wounds. If they were already injured, they are brought down to the Dying State.Tier 5:
-The Frenzy-bar timer is slightly increased from tier 2.
First Hit: Applies "Sudden Death" to the target hit.
**Second Hit: **
If Healthy: Brings a survivor to the Dying State.
If Injured: Brings a survivor to the Dying State and applies a per
-You no longer receive the Legion-Stun after stabbing a survivor for the 2nd time during this instance of frenzy.
-The lack of Legion-Stun allows you to apply the "Second Hit' to all remaining survivors if you have reach to them.
-The Second hit refills your frenzy bar.
Triggers Quick Cuts: The Survivor affected by quick cuts get Injured + receive Deep Wounds + Mangled and Haemorrhage. If they were already injured, they are brought down to the Dying State.Other details:
-The Red Frenzy Indicator is an indicator shown every so now and then intervals. They are only shown when a survivor is moving.
-Upon Depleting your Frenzy timer, you receive a Legion-Stun lasting 3 seconds.
-The Legion can see scratchmarks during Frenzy.
-When the Legion applies a second hit, he applies broken to that survivor for the same duration he is stunned. (This is to avoid heal abuse with the giant stun times.)
-Quick cuts only lasts for the duration of that instance of Frenzy. After is is finished, Quick cuts is completely removed from each survivor. If the effects were already triggered, they will of course continue.Balance
So what are his strengths and what are his weaknesses?
His strength is obviously being able to get over obstacles fast and being able to quickly inflict wounds to a lot of people in a close area.
His weakness, more then in the original version, is that he is terrible at "tunneling" or focussing down someone if he doesn't have reach to multiple people.His stun is deliberately awful, as to make it extremely consistent for survivors to disappear.
This is what is so beautiful about this solution:
He is a killer that is very good at hitting people, like the nurse, but can not tunnel these people as he loses them after applying a low-tier second hit.This means that, unlike the frustration caused by the nurses ability to ignore most of the game, the Legion will lower that frustration by not being able to tunnel these survivors like the nurse could.
This forces him to cause havoc across the board against anyone who he can find, hoping he has enough map pressure and manages to stumble on a hit, hiding survivor, or hopes to find 2 or 3 survivors together, at which point he can slowly start machine gunning them down, not requiring him to find them again (by the fault of survivors themselves).Now we have a strong killer that unlike the nurse manages to lower frustration, as he spreads his/her strength across the map, instead of against 1 survivor.
A killer that is fun AND strong.
A killer that is easy to understand:
A machine gun against groups; requiring you to sit still while he stabs at your team, in the hope you are hidden..
and if he catches you alone; strong at hitting, but bad at tracking you from Healthy To Downed.I hope by that, you see a solution other then the building on previous clunky mechanics.
We have the chance to turn his/her beautiful concept into a killer we all can enjoy.Along the variables like: Legion Stun Time, Frenzy timer across tears, the increased movementspeed, etc. we have all we need to turn him from UP to OP, being able to settle at a perfect balance with healthy mechanics that feel intuitive and make sense.
No more staring at the ground to avoid triggering a chase while chasing a DWed survivor!
Nope! Just intuitive mechanics, conceptually sound technicalities and a lot of stabbing. -
What needs to happen is that SWF groups need some sort of limit imposed. Something like there can only be >1 instance of any given perk in an SWF group.
When you have a well made game like Dead By Daylight, where the Devs have done everything to try and make things symbolic and conceptually pleasing, the last thing we want to do is artificially force an conceptually unappealing feature in like that.
When the Devs solved infinite looping, they gave things like Bloodlust, which makes sense conceptually. But nothing would feel more forced to push in a mechanic that has a manual way to deal with grouped people just because it desperately tried to deal with a deeper lying problem.
The problem here is; SWF =/= in strength to Solo. And you would want to fix this by by creating ANOTHER artificial, but this time, reverse gap in order to balance things out? Call that clunky or building on top of the problem.
Second:
Because so many people do not understand Stealth as mentioned in this post:
Stealth is not simply referred to as hiding here. Stealth is referred to as the state in which EVERYBODY is hidden.
Only in this state of stealth is being stealthy a valid option. As nobody is looping a killer and wasting pallets while you spend your time boing hidden. Nothing is gained and nothing is lost. You'll have a slightly regressing generator at best.But this state of Stealth has it's uses; When nobody is found by the killer, all survivors are able to take their time to slowly complete sub-objectives, such as totems, searching through chests, or can wait for the killer to pass a generator before starting to work on it.
As mentioned in 1 of the earliest examples, when the game starts, every survivor could wait at a Gen > let the killer pass > and start working on it.This would be a valid strategy, IF you know if someone was chased or not. Otherwise, for all you know, you are here hiding while the killer has already found someone else to chase.Another use for this state of Stealth is healing. When a survivor gets unhooked and you know he hasn't found someone else. you win the total time (32 seconds or 16 seconds spread over 2 survivors) in momentum if the people at generators know how to respond appropriately.
This state of Stealth is an opportunity for survivors to realise that they can undo all type of debuffs (including the injured state), while not losing anything. There is only to gain.Why this is important:
The state of stealth introduces NEW and HEALTHY strategies to the survivor's side. One that can be countered by the killer through the act of finding someone, at which point the benefit is lost.
Features like this are a lot better at making DBD a more healthy, in opposition to the God Pallet phenomenon.Pallets give control over the game to the survivor. The killer can attempts some red glow manipulation, walking backwards and going for long lunges, but it's up to the survivor to fall for them.
Stealth in this matter isn't solely controlled by survivors. Killers have control over this as well. How they path, where they look, what they predict; It's an interplay of power.
With more healthy and dynamic features like this, survivors would be less reliant on pallets.
For every healthy mechanic that we introduce (while simultaneously closing the gap between Solo's and SWF's), we remove another pallet from the map.If survivors have a healthy base for survival, killers can get a healthy base for killing, and we will no longer have to resort designing every killer around dealing with pallets or having the flunk competitively completely.
Something I notice about your comments:
When I introduce this idea of closing the gap between Solo's and SWF's you go on about how this would worsen the problem, not solve it.
In your head or in rhetoric, this proposal seems through the roof.
Yet realistically, this idea is only 1 of the many things the devs gave Solo's completely for free:
- The amount of Gens that need to be finished
- When the exit gates are powered.
- Where both exit gates are.
- Whether the hatch has been opened with a key
- When someone is healthy
- When someone is hit
- When someone is downed
- the exact location of whoever is downed
- A notification when someone is hooked
- Their exact hook timer
- Whether or not they have been saved (or healed afterwards)
- When and where a hex totem has been cleansed
- The exact location of whatever Gen has just been completed
- The amount of survivors still alive
- Whether an obsession is chased or not.
- Whether the other 3 survivors are chased or not. (my proposal)
- From Reverse Bear Trap timer to Borrowed Timer and the list goes on.
If we'd remove all the things here that we give to solo's (that "so brutally damage the horror side that it should be rejected"), then Solo survivors would be significantly weaker.
Not knowing which Gens have been completed least to you checking the wrong locations wasting about 30 seconds for every time you guess wrong.Not knowing who has been hooked forces you to patrol so once in a while, just to make sure wasting a significant amount of time.
But it is clear that you disagree with the Dev's choice to give the Solo information that the SWF already had access to, by the virtue of communication.
No, pumping solo up to SWF is not the way to balance the game. You're not actually fixing the problems as >much as you making them more commonplace.
Then dead by daylight has a giant history of making these problems common place. from point 1-15 and 17 beyond, we've been heading in the wrong direction...
well at least, according to you.Then my question is, why is it your obsession to uniquely stumble on the all evil point 16? Is it so uniquely game-breaking that it cannot be implemented?
Or is it that you are only familiar with all the other points that came with the exact same law: "To give a survivor that which could have already been achieved through communication", that your personal experience with those points trumped your previous theoretical understanding, whereas if they had been absent, you would've been an advocate against them as well?
Or is it that you cannot see that power is relative, and that the fact that one can know who has been hooked, thus increasing the chances of someone being unhook dramatically, have simultaneously forced survivors do face difficulty elsewhere: Longer Gen-Time and so on. Balance weightings that you've never seen before, because never was the game balanced around the "invisible hooks".If, by your philosophy, we could solve this game by taking away all those points mentioned and keep survivors in the dark, because:
No, pumping solo up to SWF is not the way to balance the game. You're not actually fixing the problems as >much as you making them more commonplace.
Thus we do the opposite and bring Solo's back to the dark ages. Thus solving the ultimate problem.
To me, of course, this seems the worst thing to do in the world, and increasing the gap would terrible hurt the game. For me, the solution seems to be to decrease the gap, and then, we have an objective measure for survivor's strength, which can then be used to balance a relative killer's strength.
Be it that you disagree with the removal of point 1-17 then you must believe that neither increasing the gap nor decreasing the gap is to solution. In order for you to believe that you must believe that we're exactly at a balance point, as you would believe neither extremes.
Then the question would by; why do you believe that?
Why was point 13,14,15 just right, but did point 16 become too much? Why was the current state of information exactly what the (exclusively Solo)survivor's "deserved" and how did it settle exactly around what we by chance currently have?I believe you don't believe that. By the mere fact that it was already there, one is blinded by it and never really saw it as a problem, nor something good. It was just there. I similarly believe that you would've never had an objection if the 16th point was intro introduced by the start. The overstated effects would not have turned out as radical as you believed and you would've just played along as if it was so common and fundamental as knowing who is alive and who is dead through the HUD.
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I can get behind the Myers change
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So, let all the survivors get one hooked then? How about no. And camping doesn't mean in your face. It means staying REALLY close, heartbeat close, so they can tunnel you when you get unhooked. Its stupid, it ruins the survivor experience, and it destroys immersion. Killer mains will always cry about something, thats just who they are, but intentionally camping like that needs mega severe consequences.
So, let all the survivors get one hooked then? No. Make yourself unpredictable. Force him to the other side of the map and stop feeling so entitled to be rescued for every hooking-phase. If there's a survivor within 60 seconds at the hook every goddam time, then what even is the point in leaving at all.
You have control over where the killer is, or at least should be. If you aren't able to control his position or (if he refuses to respond appropriately) force him to lose the game, then you don't know how to play.
If he really does camp then you have the time to complete all generators.
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@MegMain98
Because of what you mention; the player-experience and the amount of people enjoying SWF, it will be near impossible to go with the secrecy and censorship route.We're left with only 1 option. Let's make the best of it.
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Lol
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Stop unhooking survivors and the killers will stop camping.
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All I feel about that is knowing that good killers do not have the tools to win against good survivors.
That there are balance issues related to SWF's and Solo's and player-experience across total play time that make it hard to do so and that in order to fix it we would need a comprehensive set of interrelated fixed to achieve that, one of which addresses issues with stealth, low vs high survivor count, time variables and so on. -
@Orion said:
Camping is a hot-button issue for many Survivor mains, who often say it's "unfair". Well, I say it is fair, for now, but I'd like to discuss when it might become unfair.First, let's analyze camping, from the Killer and Survivor's respective perspectives.
The Killer had to:- Find a Survivor (won at stealth)
- Hit a Survivor
- Hit a Survivor again (won the chase)
- Pick up the Survivor
- Get hit with Decisive Strike
- Find the Survivor again (won at stealth again)
- Hit the Survivor again (won the chase again)
- Carry the Survivor to the hook while preventing flashlight rescues and bodyblocking (won at whatever you want to call this)
Now from the Survivor's perspective, the Survivor had to:
- Be found by the Killer (lost at stealth)
- Get hit by the Killer
- Get hit by the Killer again (lost the chase)
- Hit a skill check
- Be found again (lost at stealth again)
- Get hit again (lost the chase again)
Under these generic circumstances, the Killer did everything right. They found and hooked a Survivor. They succeeded every step of the way and should be rewarded for it. The Survivor's only success was hitting an easy skill check and they got their second chance for it. Camping is fair.
When would camping be unfair? Well, when the Killer did absolutely nothing right, the Survivor did absolutely nothing wrong, and yet the Survivor ends up on the hook anyway by the will of the Entity. Under this hypothetical and unfair scenario, the Survivor would be punished for doing everything right, as opposed to the current, normal scenario, where they're punished for doing everything wrong.
Let me add to that.
As I mentioned in one of my older posts, even holding the concept of camping is ridiculous.Here's why:
The killer wants to kill survivors and for that they need to be on a hook.
Now imagine this:
Instead of what you see on the Left Hooked survivor, the Devs would split the hooking-phases into 12 phases of 10 seconds.
Would this mean that survivors "deserve" to be rescued for every hooking phase as well? (demanding 40 hooks in total for a 4k), or else you would be a camper?Of course in your mind, such a simple change wouldn't really be that radical. All it does is making survivor hanging time a more accurate representation of how long they've been hanging, without the giant cuts in time or major differences between saving someone just before or after the end of their 1st hooking phase.
The problem is, if you have the entitlement mentality of feeling that you deserve to be saved for every hooking phase, then such a simple adjustment would completely break the game.
So what would happen if we completely did away with the "phase" concept and made it so that if you're freed the first 40 seconds of your hooking time, then being hung again means that you continue exactly at that time?
For a survivor to be able to die, they must have hung a total of 120 seconds. What can survivors make of this with their current mentality? Would they see that demanding to be freed whenever the survivor pleases results in an unplayable game, where survivors rescue within 0.1 seconds while screaming that the killer should leave this hook so they can heal?
It is impossible for currents mentality to survive under such rules.So why would it be, that if a killer runs from a hook, runs back 40-50 seconds after to ensure the survivor enters the 2nd hooking phase, that such a thing could be considered camping?
Why should a killer have to accept a survivor being saved right before their 2nd phase, which for them is one of the worst possible times?
They shouldn't, because the concept of camping/patrolling/guarding is lead by a misguided view resulting from the hooking-phase mechanic in its current state.
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@Raptorrotas said:
The problem is exactly this very piece of information:
"Is the killer chasing someone else?"Swf is partially game breaking just because of this.
No (serious) survivor player would take it slow to do gens if he knows hes currently safe
Just this information will enable even the most casual beginner to sprint to a gen and rush the hell out of it.The thing is, they wouldn't (well, at least if they understood how to play the game). Because Solo's can't sneak around without having a chance to waste time, they are forced by META strategy to always rush the objective.
Sneaking around in this game is worthless when someone is already chased; a killer chases 1 person. The moment that happens, the entire rest of the map is relatively safe for the other 3 to run and rush.
Because Stealth is only legitimate when EVERYBODY is in stealth and no one has been found, we can call this the only viable form of stealth. But the difference is, that only SWF's have access to this stealth concept where-as the Solo's do not, exactly for the reason that they do not know whether the team's collective stealth-mode has been breached, thus META strategy compels them to always rush.
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You got it exactly right.
I've searched the forums for a lot of Surveillance suggestions from others, but I always see the same thing:
When we see a perk that is less than 10% the strength of a meta perk like Hex: Ruin (being 100%), then when we buff a previously useless from 10% to 70% we start panicking, as if the killer's power is decided by the collection of all 50+ killer perks, rather than by the top 4.
This is why most of the "Improvements" to Surveillance I could find would make it better (from 10% to 20%) but would still be a perk nobody would ever pick.I believe this version of surveillance IS actually something that people could consider picking. The numbers can be used to tweak any UP/OP problems as you already suggested, be it so (:
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@thesuicidefox
I don't think you follow this topic and understand what is being talked about and why. -
Let's dissect that:
one of the strongest things you can give survivors in this game is information.
We've seen from proper experimentation that this is not the case.
Marth88 uploaded a 100 game series in which he played SWF (Thus having complete information) and a 100 game series while playing without communication, thus traditional DBD.
Both series were complete stomps against the killers, of whom less then 10% were able to neutral pip+ pip/double pip.
If your statement were to be scientifically correct, then we would've seen a huge disparity between the results, but we don't.
So what really is the strongest thing you can give survivors? Pallets, as proven.information should come with a price to pay, yet your idea has no such thing.
What price does an SWF pay? So why should a Solo-player pay the price an SWF doesn't? Information shouldn't come at a prize, because such information is already given to other players through SWF.
And are you sure there is no PROPER price to pay in what I commented about? The only way to properly have a price to pay is by buffing killers independently due to all survivor types gaining an equal ground. You don't have a proper price if you selectively punish Solo-players and increase the gap between SWF's and Solo's. That is only how we worsen the balancing problem.
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I know for a fact that 5 would be possible. In that case I think it would be desirable to do away with the extra chest offerings and make it a standard for every map. By your comment I assume you have also found out the secret most fun way to play Dead By Daylight.
Correct me if I'm wrong here, because I didn't test it personally, but I got from a forum that an SWF all used shiny coin and got up to 11 chests. If this number is possible then we could make 8 the standard and make coins give up to 1/2/3 chests (without stacking, thus picking the one with the highest number.)
This could really blow a lot of life into DBD as it gives you a lot more opportunities to play the game in an exciting way. If you're in need of a Key as the other last living survivor is being chased then you at least have a slightly better chance at finding what you are looking for.
With a higher chest amount, we'd also be able to use items as solutions for certain game-problems without making these solutions too consistent/expected.
One item could be Charger
A charger is a mobile generator. You can progress the chargers bar at a 50% speed of your generator progression. When you apply your Charger on a generator, the generator will jump up by the amount of progress you had stored.
Charger can hold up to (40/80/120/160 seconds of progression based on rarity)
A Charger produces noice up to 16 meters away.The item charger for example would be an item that you'd be looking for in a scenario where there are 5 gens and all your teammates are dead and you are unable to reach to the generators. See it as a Left Behind perk but in item form. It would have use in multiple scenario's and when needed, it has you scooping for items where otherwise it would feel like a lots game already.
Chests and items are in my opinion are the most underrated mechanics for fun in this game. Really hope this goes through.
If the Devs decided on increasing Chest count be as much as I suggested, then that'd made a great (non-meta) fun perk (:
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What is meant by stealth here is predominantly the state in which EVERYBODY is hidden, thus not losing time by being hidden.
This state of Stealth is an opportunity for players to find eachother, to cleanse totems, open chests and what not.
It can basically be seen as a state where the game is on pause, except that the killer can break this state.
One of the problems with Bond in general is that it requires you a perk slot for something other players in the player-base get for free. (check post above yours)
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Be careful with what you wish for
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Nuff said. -
If they are willing to spend so much time on searching through chests then they might as well get the best item they can find. It is way stronger to just unlock an item in the bloodweb with the right addons and have them from the start.
Sounds like someone has someone has been caught in the basement by a Leatherface while scooping for items (;
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This combination of perks is the reason I keep playing.
Selfcare + Botany Knowledge + Pharmacy + Plunderers is fun as well. 53% item efficiency on a heal on yourself that only lasts about 11 seconds.
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Am I the only one that thought that the Whispers icon was a lady staring at the wind and never knew it was an ear and the side of the head?
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At least you asked for nerfs as well.
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And what if, let's say, we'd make the symbol only appear below someone's icon upon starting a chase for 3 seconds?
This way you don't know if a chase has been ended or not, but you get a similar signal as the one you get from when a survivor gets hit.
You will still know, at the start of the game, or when a survivor is dead-hooked, whether you should allow yourself to be stealthy. Whether you have time (in a 2 survivor scenario) to find each other or whether one has already been found.By your reasoning, you'd aknowledge that knowing a survivor's healthstate above their name is equally game breaking? (Solo)Survivors who wouldn't know when someone is hurt would waste a lot more time being stealthy as well. Especially with knockout, they wouldn't even know if that survivor has been downed or not.
The basic UI the game has is already as game-breaking as my suggestion, wouldn't you agree? It's a free buff to survivors.
If survivors wouldn't be able to see who's hooked and would only be able to loudly hear them scream when in proximity, wouldn't this create a significantly more horrified gameplay, knowing that if you are simply rushing Gens without patrolling and checking your teammates, that your teammates might be dying which ultimately will lose you the game?
It would be a horrified experience more terrifying than any arcady mechanic the Devs have implemented to move it in the other direction. But there is a problem here...SWF's/3rd party communication.
In every game where there is 3rd party communication and an element of secrecy there is a problem.
In the game Town of Salem, such people who use third party communication are Banned. In Dead by Daylights, it was later added to the game in the form of SWF.The game has to go in a certain direction. It is either covered in an element of secrecy thus use of 3rd party software is banned, or communication is expected. Those 2 are the only 2 options you have for balance.
NO INFORMATION VS INFORMATION SCOPE
If you respond inappropriately to this phenomenon, you'll end up with what we have: The gap between Solo's and SWF's, a game that can't be balanced.
Then my question is this; why would you want the game to fail at either sides of the scope? Either remove the player HUD and assume the Blind Effect on every survivor while banning Third Party communication, or do what we have right now:
Hook indicator to know who and where someone has been hooked >
achieved equality in power with blinded 3rd party communication.Health state indicator; healthy, injured, dying state >
achieved equality in power with blinded 3rd party communication.Generation completion indicator. >
achieved equality in power with blinded 3rd party communication.etc.
It is clear to me where the Devs wanted to go with this game, and either sides are fine. But a half-ash job at it isn't.With the half-ash job we're stuck at where we cannot properly buff killers as we allow both the Right side of the Scope to play together under the same rules as the Left side of the Scope. (The right side being SWF's and the degree to which Solo players deviate from the Right side to the left is what we call the Gap.)
We need to make a choice and once we've made it, we can optimise everything around it while still delivering a horrifying experience.
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@Brady said:
One thing I like about solo surviving is the lack of information and being forced to predict what the other players are doing, including the killer. It adds risk, which is something we need more of in DbD.While this is a good idea, it'd contribute to erasing some horror aspects of DbD's atmosphere (or atleast scary, or thrilling) and it's not really something I'd support.
First:
One of the problems is that the lack of information in this case doesn't lead to you being "forced to predict what other players are doing". It predominantly forces you to just run to every objective until you are caught, as demonstrated by over 100 games of the Marth88 experiment.If we want stealthy gameplay, then we must allow survivors to know when they are not wasting their time during stealth, otherwise they are forced (by meta strategy) to just run to the objectives anyways, as being found isn't that big of a deal; it's about being able to loop.
Second:
I also think that it WOULD contribute to the horror atmosphere more. When (solo)players start to understand the mechanic, they will know that if there is no chaser symbol below anyone's name, then there's no reason to rush things, especially at the start. It allows them to search for chests (an in my opinion completely undervalued game-mechanic for opportunities).
Playing stealthy gets you immersed and any mechanics that allow you to be stealthy and not harm yourself doing it helps with this immersion. -
@Wolf74 said:
@Alistar2013 said:
Please explain how it would be a HUUUUUUUUGE buff. I don't see how it is.
Are you kidding me? Read the opening post. That's what this whole idea is about.
You KNOW when the killer is chasing someone else and you can move and act freely.
No sneaking around or hiding when it isn't necessary.SWF's or decent solo-players won't do the sneaking around anyways, as just doing Gens and being caught into a near infinite loop is better anyways, due to these solos not knowing who is chased.
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In order for the Killers to receive buffs from the devs we must do the following:
- Close the gap between SWF's and Solo's, as they will balance around Solo's.
- Make a survivor less dependant on others when it comes to winning. That means more tools for survivors to win when others are dead, and perhaps less strength when all of them are alive.
The devs want a great experience for the majority of the players (thus survivors). In order to achieve that, you need to make it more Fun for survivors to lose. This means that they feel less helpless when one of their teammates get camped, because they have multiple tools to survive in lower numbers.
Once that is done, you can start buffing killers in any way, really. But to get there, we must sometimes consider to do something contradictory; which is buffing (Solo)Survivors.
The Devs can't just buff killers without damaging the overall player-experience, because of the underlying issues mentioned in 1 and 2.
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@Wolf74
That's the thing. Nobody would be sneaking around because they don't know if they're wasting time.
Currently (disregarding the obsession) you would only know someone is being chased IF they are HIT, which means that they maybe have already looped the killer for the longest time and you SHOULD have been doing Gens OR they are SWF's.We know for a fact that the developers do not want to buff killers, while we do. That's because we want killers to be able to win against SWF-type of gameplay while the Devs want Solo survivors to stand a decent chance at winning against killers at all ranks.
If we celebrate keeping Solo survivors down by not giving them tools SWF's have for free then it's hard to ever move to balance.
If this mechanic was implemented and people started understanding how to use it, then there would be more sneaking around, as you know nobodies cover has been broken anyway yet. No reason to be rushing when the clock isn't ticking yet.
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what the.. -
BY AlwaysInAGoodShape:
As there are games in which you don't even get to kick a generator or where finding a survivor at your generator with the perk even if the 16 seconds wouldn't be over, then it would still be as terrible.
In order to make it more than just a perk that we shake our heads at, let's try a slightly different approach:
Surveillance:
When a survivor starts working on a regressing Generator, they will suffer from the Exposed effect for 10/20/30 seconds.“Are you gonna behave?” -Amanda Young
This way it's about the killer Surveilling the Generator and catching a survivor off Guard. It helps them with their killing potential and actually, to my surprise, fits the Perk Icon better than the original idea.
This Surveillance would be a good fit for stealthy killers and counter to Survivors mindlessly Gen tapping a regressing Generator.
Similar to how Mad Grit helps against bodyblockers, so does the new Surveillance have a real role in this game. -
BY Patmosphere:
Surveillance: Unlocks potential in one's Aura-reading ability. The last 1 regressing Generator's/2 regressing Generators'/3 regressing Generators' Aura(s) are indicated in white to you for 120 seconds and their repair progress can be determined by the insensity of their Auras.
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BY Brotherblood13:
Currently the Perk Reads...
Unlocks potential in one's Aura reading ability. The last 1/2'/3 regressing Generators' Aura(s) are indicated in white to you for 16 seconds.
I was thinking...
Unlocks potential in one's Aura reading ability. The last 1/2/3 regressing Generators' will show the aura of any survivor working on it. Generator will be effected for 20 seconds after kicking.
Survivors in the area wont be seen, only those actively working on the generator. The name Surveillance should been that the killer is watching, while currently its more like the killer is notified.
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BY AshleyWB:
When the killer kicks a gen all nearby survivors auras are revealed for 30 seconds or 8 seconds after they leave the 20m radius of gen. Cooldown of 40/30/20seconds
It's kinda a killers equivalent of the alert! perk for survivors. Could be a surveillance rework. Kicking gens should do more harm to survivors. -
BY IronWolf115:
Surveillance is clearly meant to be a perk that promotes generator patrolling, it just doesn't do it very well. So I have an idea on a rework.
Surveillance
The noise of survivors working on generators is increased by 30/40/50%. Additionally, your Terror Radius intensity is reduced by 40/50/60% when you are within 32m of a generator that is being worked on.
Reasoning
I found it kind of difficult to think of what to do to improve Surveillance but I feel it should sort of be the reverse version of Technician on the survivor side. This rework allows you to hear generators at further range if they are being worked on and allows you to launch more of a surprise attack on them with the muffled Terror Radius.
NOTE: Terror Radius "intensity" is NOT the range of it, but rather how loud it is as you get closer to a survivor.
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BY Buily09:
Surveillance
Generators within 32m / 36m / 40m of you are under great protection. Everytime new Generator enters in your range, gain sound notification when Generators reached 85% / 80% / 75% of progression bar. Kicked Generators within your range also have increased degeneration speed by 20% / 25% / 30%. -
BY YaNestea:
Unlocks potential in one’s aura reading ability. The last 1/2/3 regressing generators’ are revealed to you in white until they are worked on by a survivor.
When a survivor works on the generator, their aura is revealed to you for 5/7/9 seconds.
_“Are you gonna behave?” -Amanda Young _
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BY Nickenzie:
Left Behind: You won't give in to the killer, regardless of the situation! When you are the last survivor remaining in the trial, gain a 5/10/15% haste status effect and 100% repair speed increase when you're outside the killer's terror radius. If you are inside the killer's terror radius, your scratch marks will be hidden and you won't leave pools of blood behind.
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BY tager:
Left Behind, as we all know, is a Bill's perk that is very situational and kinda of a waste of a perk slot.
I've searched on this forum but it seems that nobody has come with the idea of increasing the sound of the hatch.I'll make a quick explanation by changing the description of the perk a little bit.
You'll get the job done... No matter the cost. If you are the last person remaining in the trial, for each Generator that needs to be repaired, gain a 19/22/25 % bonus to Repair speed. If you're the last one standing and the hatch is open, your ears will be fullfilled with audible energy, and the sound of the open hatch is increased by 19/22/25 %
I think this buff would make the perk much more viable, and although it will be aimed towards casual play.
The perk in its actual state is pretty useless, and it's obvious why nobody has it equiped.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbgRTvB-lSI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sq3WNwam-jo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24gkP3s7LjQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1B_L4P_JlU