1 Giant Thing that HOLDS BACK Stealthy Gameplay and HOW TO SOLVE IT.
See this? It's normal DBD HUD...
But there's something Wrong with it; It misses 1 giant opportunity.
I remember a while back, someone suggested that survivors shouldn't rush to a Gen at the start of a game. No? They should instead wait for the killer to pass first to decrease the chance of them being caught.
It sounded like a great idea, especially for SWF's but there was a downside...
What if another survivor had already been caught? Should you play stealthy? Probably not!
Because, as a solo survivor, you don't know what the others are up to, rushing to a generator is your only way to make sure you aren't wasting precious time or losing your team the game by doing nothing behind a bush.
So let's change that!
Remember the HUD I showed you?...
The problem survivors have is that they don't know when another survivor has been caught...
Let's say that being caught means you being in a chase!
We can let survivors play stealthy until a player has been caught! That's when they should be doing Gens, or otherwise without this information, there is only 1 mundane play-style that is strong and that is pure efficiency; doing Gens Gens Gens.
This is how we solve it:
When a survivor enters a chase, they will have a Killer's icon (or any other identifiable icon) below their player HUD, to showcase that they have been caught. Based on this, a stealthy survivor can determine whether it's still beneficial to be hiding or whether they should be doing the objective!
Because of this Key Information, survivors get stronger in a healthier way, which in turn allows us to buff killers while also opening new opportunity for non-SWF survivors, creating an over-all healthier balance to the game.
Maybe the first time you read this, you won't see how important this is, but think it through; This is the difference between hiding and running; Looping and Stealth-based gameplay... and all that with a simple change to HUD!
Comments
You'd have to give something to killers in return though. A simple change like that would have a huge impact on gen repair speed, making genrush even more easy than it is now.
It wouldn't increase current Genrushers, but it would help players wasting a lot of the time (rank 10-20ers) to play more effeciently. If more players can play well using this and the Devs finally see the 40% escape rate going up among all ranks, then we might finally see the balance we were looking for.
I would say yes , but i cant.
Survivors have tons of informations about everything(Devour Hope,Make your choice,timer from the reverse beartraps, ruin).
Every time they get a warning, what the killer use.
So if this would be the only informations for survivors, i would say yes.
But with the current state, i say no.
It gets easier and easier as time goes.
What would really help stealth is being rewarded for it. I get that the devs want interactions, but it messes up with the people who don't loop, and run like meth heads.
The problem is that the Devs stated that they won't buff killers for the reason that a majority of the players aren't as good as the gamebreaking SWF's.
SWF's are so strong because they have a better way of communicating, thus giving them many perks for free.
This is what widens the Gap between Solo's and SWF's. In order to create a balanced game, you need to close the gap between the solo's and SWF's which in turn allows the Developers to buff the killers while not disproportionally hurting solo survivors.
With a mechanic like this, survivors wouldn't get "Stronger" perse. Only Solo's get disproportionately stronger in comparison with SWF's because this tool allows them to close the gap.
If you want to balance the game, then the only way you can do that (while also convincing the devs) is by closing the gap between the Solo-rookies and the Rank 1 SWF's.
I didnt mean this kind of informations.
I mean the killer perk notifications.
Example:
When you hit a survivor with 3 Devour Hope Token, the survivor gets a notification:
"The Killer use Devour Hope,search a totem".
When you Make your Choice gets triggered, the survivor gets a notification:
"He can one shot you for 60 seconds, hide or you die".
Reverse Beartraps......................
The survivor see the timer and they have the sound.
And the pig doesnt has a timer.
Who design this?
This little thing is rly frustrating, because its just bad gameplay design.
This kind of informations should be deleted.
Because the killer doesnt get any informations.
Its kinda unfair, when 1 side have all informations and the other side as 0 information.
And this would be effect solo player and SWF groups.
When the killer perks be hiden in the end game chat.
And sry for my bad english.
They made something similar with the obsession icon, allowing all survivors to see it and being able to see when they are chased.
I support your suggest because, as you said, it would be just a buff to solo survivors (who need it), while leaving swf untouched, reducing the gap.
@SheN3ko
I 100% agree that the survivors do not need to see certain things that are currently given to them for free. I personally always wondered why I was notified about Hex: Lullaby before even noticing it's effects.
But you do see the distinction here? The chase icon mechanic is something that is already available to SWF's by definition, whether the game intervenes or not.
Then even if the game has already decided to give normally unavailable information to both type of survivors, we shouldn't let that stop ourselves from introducing and implementing mechanics that breach the gap between SWF's and Solo's, which is our only tool for balancing the game in accordance with the Devs' will?
That crap is already a thing with the obsession.
If the obsession is chased, the spiderlegs are wiggling.
You want that for ALL survivor, which would be a huuuuge buff.
But at the moment the Devs are all up for it, after some decent buffs to killer with only mediocre buffs to survivor in return we stepped a good way towards balance. But the new PTB is already swinging back hard with major killer nerfs incoming and NO survivor nerfs to "balance things out".
This seems like a pretty reasonably, non-game breaking buff. As long as all that it tells you is that they are being chased and does not expose where they are.
Please explain how it would be a HUUUUUUUUGE buff. I don't see how it is. As @AlwaysInAGoodShape stated, if I play with friends I would have discord or some other communication to tell them this information, otherwise I would have to use perks or wait til someone got downed to know where the killer is.
EDIT: For all I know they could be running the killer right towards me.
Are you kidding me? Read the opening post. That's what this whole idea is about.
You KNOW when the killer is chasing someone else and you can move and act freely.
No sneaking around or hiding when it isn't necessary.
@Wolf74
That's the thing. Nobody would be sneaking around because they don't know if they're wasting time.
Currently (disregarding the obsession) you would only know someone is being chased IF they are HIT, which means that they maybe have already looped the killer for the longest time and you SHOULD have been doing Gens OR they are SWF's.
We know for a fact that the developers do not want to buff killers, while we do. That's because we want killers to be able to win against SWF-type of gameplay while the Devs want Solo survivors to stand a decent chance at winning against killers at all ranks.
If we celebrate keeping Solo survivors down by not giving them tools SWF's have for free then it's hard to ever move to balance.
If this mechanic was implemented and people started understanding how to use it, then there would be more sneaking around, as you know nobodies cover has been broken anyway yet. No reason to be rushing when the clock isn't ticking yet.
There's lullaby? You won't be notified even seen the effect for example. Same for every other perk related notification, just leave the bubble and the aura when hooked and notify when an hex is destroyed.
That's it since this alone would actually tell to everyone "hide" or "do gens" making them be even more efficient without drawbacks
It should be an horror game and already be notified this much I ridiculous, I can't play horror games normally but this one? it feels like way too arcade with all the info I get already and since killers ain't such a huge threat I don't feel it anymore as a scary game (myers aside) ask for even more information on the current state f the game I just say too much
The problem is, we get solos closer to SWFs, but killer don't get the needed buffs for that.
Look at it, the last patches we really did 2 steps forward and only 1 step back towards balance.
But what's next? Look at the PTB. No step forward for the killer, but to steps back, because of all the survivor buffs. Again!
@Wolf74
In order for the Killers to receive buffs from the devs we must do the following:
The devs want a great experience for the majority of the players (thus survivors). In order to achieve that, you need to make it more Fun for survivors to lose. This means that they feel less helpless when one of their teammates get camped, because they have multiple tools to survive in lower numbers.
Once that is done, you can start buffing killers in any way, really. But to get there, we must sometimes consider to do something contradictory; which is buffing (Solo)Survivors.
The Devs can't just buff killers without damaging the overall player-experience, because of the underlying issues mentioned in 1 and 2.
SWF's or decent solo-players won't do the sneaking around anyways, as just doing Gens and being caught into a near infinite loop is better anyways, due to these solos not knowing who is chased.
One thing I like about solo surviving is the lack of information and being forced to predict what the other players are doing, including the killer. It adds risk, which is something we need more of in DbD.
While this is a good idea, it'd contribute to erasing some horror aspects of DbD's atmosphere (or atleast scary, or thrilling) and it's not really something I'd support.
First:
One of the problems is that the lack of information in this case doesn't lead to you being "forced to predict what other players are doing". It predominantly forces you to just run to every objective until you are caught, as demonstrated by over 100 games of the Marth88 experiment.
If we want stealthy gameplay, then we must allow survivors to know when they are not wasting their time during stealth, otherwise they are forced (by meta strategy) to just run to the objectives anyways, as being found isn't that big of a deal; it's about being able to loop.
Second:
I also think that it WOULD contribute to the horror atmosphere more. When (solo)players start to understand the mechanic, they will know that if there is no chaser symbol below anyone's name, then there's no reason to rush things, especially at the start. It allows them to search for chests (an in my opinion completely undervalued game-mechanic for opportunities).
Playing stealthy gets you immersed and any mechanics that allow you to be stealthy and not harm yourself doing it helps with this immersion.
I disagree with everything said and here is exactly why:
Having the knowledge if the Killer has found survivors allows you to:
1. Know when a gen is safe to complete or not. And by this, I mean absolutely completely. Compare it to nowadays - a gen is safe to do UNTIL you hear the heartbeat. This mechanic would only prove to help gen rush even more. People aren't going to use it to "have time to search through chests" etc, they're going to use it to their advantage, which is completely generators even more optimally because they no longer have to guess if the Killer is patrolling, or in a chase.
2. Marth88's experiments come off as forced for me. I mean, regardless, you know The Killer is going to patrol generators, right? The whole Killer's objective is to stop gen progression and to sacrifice the survivors before they escape . This idea isn't going to change the fact that that's STILL the killers objective
3. Also, Killer nerf. Let's be honest, the devs have said it themselves, knowledge is the best power in this game. Look at perks like BBQ, Spine Chill, etc. Knowledge has a huge impact on gameplay. By giving Survivors even more FREE knowledge, with the state their still in, will just harm Killers that don't need to be harmed in the first place. SWF doesn't make up every single match, we can't cater to solo survivors in that way for everything.
4. This one is opinionated and there's simply nothing else to it. For me, I see NOTHING thrilling about knowing what the Killer is doing. Oh cool, he found someone, time to do an 80sec~ M1 simulator. I don't see how that's horrory, or even thrilling. I like hearing the heartbeat and going "Oh #########, is he coming or is he chasing someone? #########, better hide or run while I still got the chance." Whereas with your idea, it'd simply noticing the symbol gone, and ######### off to hide for what? Until the symbol reappears? What if it never does, then who's going to take the risk? If nobody is in a chase, the Killer is patrolling gens, and if nobody is going gens, then HOW is the game progressing at all? There wouldn't be. Totems are easy to do while rushing generators anyway, chests you still have time for (Honestly, not worth the brown items though) and generators are your main objective so you should be doing them anyway.
I'll repeat it once more, while this is a good idea, it's not something I'd support. That is just my own personal reasoning. Let's say that :chuffed:
I disagree with everything said and here is exactly why:
Having the knowledge if the Killer has found survivors allows you to:
1. Know when a gen is safe to complete or not. And by this, I mean absolutely completely. Compare it to nowadays - a gen is safe to do UNTIL you hear the heartbeat. This mechanic would only prove to help gen rush even more. People aren't going to use it to "have time to search through chests" etc, they're going to use it to their advantage, which is completely generators even more optimally because they no longer have to guess if the Killer is patrolling, or in a chase.
2. Marth88's experiments come off as forced for me. I mean, regardless, you know The Killer is going to patrol generators, right? The whole Killer's objective is to stop gen progression and to sacrifice the survivors before they escape . This idea isn't going to change the fact that that's STILL the killers objective. Meaning, someone has to be found eventually. One way or another.
3. Also, Killer nerf. Let's be honest, the devs have said it themselves, knowledge is the best power in this game. Look at perks like BBQ, Spine Chill, etc. Knowledge has a huge impact on gameplay. By giving Survivors even more FREE knowledge, with the state their still in, will just harm Killers that don't need to be harmed in the first place. SWF doesn't make up every single match, we can't cater to solo survivors in that way for everything.
4. This one is opinionated and there's simply nothing else to it. For me, I see NOTHING thrilling about knowing what the Killer is doing. Oh cool, he found someone, time to do an 80sec~ M1 simulator. I don't see how that's horrory, or even thrilling. I like hearing the heartbeat and going "Oh #########, is he coming or is he chasing someone? [BAD WORD], better hide or run while I still got the chance." Whereas with your idea, it'd simply noticing the symbol gone, and [BAD WORD] off to hide for what? Until the symbol reappears? What if it never does, then who's going to take the risk? If nobody is in a chase, the Killer is patrolling gens, and if nobody is going gens, then HOW is the game progressing at all? There wouldn't be. Totems are easy to do while rushing generators anyway, chests you still have time for (Honestly, not worth the brown items though) and generators are your main objective so you should be doing them anyway.
I'll repeat it once more, while this is a good idea, it's not something I'd support. That is just my own personal reasoning. Let's say that :chuffed:
@Brady
And what if, let's say, we'd make the symbol only appear below someone's icon upon starting a chase for 3 seconds?
This way you don't know if a chase has been ended or not, but you get a similar signal as the one you get from when a survivor gets hit.
You will still know, at the start of the game, or when a survivor is dead-hooked, whether you should allow yourself to be stealthy. Whether you have time (in a 2 survivor scenario) to find each other or whether one has already been found.
By your reasoning, you'd aknowledge that knowing a survivor's healthstate above their name is equally game breaking? (Solo)Survivors who wouldn't know when someone is hurt would waste a lot more time being stealthy as well. Especially with knockout, they wouldn't even know if that survivor has been downed or not.
The basic UI the game has is already as game-breaking as my suggestion, wouldn't you agree? It's a free buff to survivors.
If survivors wouldn't be able to see who's hooked and would only be able to loudly hear them scream when in proximity, wouldn't this create a significantly more horrified gameplay, knowing that if you are simply rushing Gens without patrolling and checking your teammates, that your teammates might be dying which ultimately will lose you the game?
It would be a horrified experience more terrifying than any arcady mechanic the Devs have implemented to move it in the other direction. But there is a problem here...
SWF's/3rd party communication.
In every game where there is 3rd party communication and an element of secrecy there is a problem.
In the game Town of Salem, such people who use third party communication are Banned. In Dead by Daylights, it was later added to the game in the form of SWF.
The game has to go in a certain direction. It is either covered in an element of secrecy thus use of 3rd party software is banned, or communication is expected. Those 2 are the only 2 options you have for balance.
NO INFORMATION VS INFORMATION SCOPE
If you respond inappropriately to this phenomenon, you'll end up with what we have: The gap between Solo's and SWF's, a game that can't be balanced.
Then my question is this; why would you want the game to fail at either sides of the scope? Either remove the player HUD and assume the Blind Effect on every survivor while banning Third Party communication, or do what we have right now:
Hook indicator to know who and where someone has been hooked >
achieved equality in power with blinded 3rd party communication.
Health state indicator; healthy, injured, dying state >
achieved equality in power with blinded 3rd party communication.
Generation completion indicator. >
achieved equality in power with blinded 3rd party communication.
etc.
It is clear to me where the Devs wanted to go with this game, and either sides are fine. But a half-ash job at it isn't.
With the half-ash job we're stuck at where we cannot properly buff killers as we allow both the Right side of the Scope to play together under the same rules as the Left side of the Scope. (The right side being SWF's and the degree to which Solo players deviate from the Right side to the left is what we call the Gap.)
We need to make a choice and once we've made it, we can optimise everything around it while still delivering a horrifying experience.
The problem with stealth is that too many survivors suck at it and do it way too much because they have no game awareness. It's not hard to know when and where someone is in a chase (part of the reason I run Bond) and it's not hard to understand prioritization. If someone is on a hook and someone else goes down, that's your cue to go make a save. Doesn't matter if the 4th guy goes for it too, if he gets the save, go for the other save or go back to the gen.
Also hiding in a bush crossing your fingers the killer is blind is not stealth. Stealth is breaking LoS and actually sneaking around the killer without being seen or heard. People have this idea you need to sit still to be stealthy. Nah, I can RUN around and still be stealthy, as long as I know the killer won't see my tracks or me it's stealth.
@thesuicidefox
What is meant by stealth here is predominantly the state in which EVERYBODY is hidden, thus not losing time by being hidden.
This state of Stealth is an opportunity for players to find eachother, to cleanse totems, open chests and what not.
It can basically be seen as a state where the game is on pause, except that the killer can break this state.
One of the problems with Bond in general is that it requires you a perk slot for something other players in the player-base get for free. (check post above yours)
i... am not rly a fan.
one of the strongest things you can give survivors in this game is information. information should come with a price to pay, yet your idea has no such thing.
this would also completely remove the scary atmosphere (yes, this game wants to be scary) by giving survivors safety. they would know that the killer is busy right now and that there is to threat for them, no matter what happens.
i would be okay with this in a mode with more killers though.
No stealth is moving around without being found. It can be 1 person or everyone. Whether or not you do objectives is irrelevant. As long as you can move around the killer without being found you are being stealthy. And most survivors are absolute trash at actual stealth, they think hiding in 1 spot not moving is stealth. It only is stealth if the killer is blind. I can't tell you how often I catch survivors hiding like I don't see them. I will even look right at them as I walk up to them and they still don't move, despite it being completely obvious I see them. Know what I do when it's obvious the killer see me hiding like that? I run, before they have a chance to get any closer, I run because I know I've been found.
More information is not necessary. Survivors just need to be less stupid and more aware of what's actually going on.
@Mister_xD
Let's dissect that:
We've seen from proper experimentation that this is not the case.
Marth88 uploaded a 100 game series in which he played SWF (Thus having complete information) and a 100 game series while playing without communication, thus traditional DBD.
Both series were complete stomps against the killers, of whom less then 10% were able to neutral pip+ pip/double pip.
If your statement were to be scientifically correct, then we would've seen a huge disparity between the results, but we don't.
So what really is the strongest thing you can give survivors? Pallets, as proven.
What price does an SWF pay? So why should a Solo-player pay the price an SWF doesn't? Information shouldn't come at a prize, because such information is already given to other players through SWF.
And are you sure there is no PROPER price to pay in what I commented about? The only way to properly have a price to pay is by buffing killers independently due to all survivor types gaining an equal ground. You don't have a proper price if you selectively punish Solo-players and increase the gap between SWF's and Solo's. That is only how we worsen the balancing problem.
@thesuicidefox
I don't think you follow this topic and understand what is being talked about and why.
we need to fix the gap of information between SWF and solo. this gap is one of the biggest problems with proper balance in the game.
in order to reach better balance, we either need to remove the ability to use 3rd party software with the game (not even sure if that's possible) or we need to equalize the information between SWF and solo.
only after that is handled can this game ever get a semblance of true balance.
"Is the killer chasing someone else?"
Swf is partially game breaking just because of this.
No (serious) survivor player would take it slow to do gens if he knows hes currently safe
Just this information will enable even the most casual beginner to sprint to a gen and rush the hell out of it.
I use Empathy for this reason. I understand that people are afraid and wait but too many times I did that and then someone got hit and the killer never got near the generator I was at and made me think to myself "I could have had that generator at 70% by now"
If you play against a hag and trapper you often can rush a generator before the killer has roamed half of the map.
Ever since I stopped playing stealth and afraid I know ive become a better survivor. Still massively suck at killer but meh I hardly play them.
The thing is, they wouldn't (well, at least if they understood how to play the game). Because Solo's can't sneak around without having a chance to waste time, they are forced by META strategy to always rush the objective.
Sneaking around in this game is worthless when someone is already chased; a killer chases 1 person. The moment that happens, the entire rest of the map is relatively safe for the other 3 to run and rush.
Because Stealth is only legitimate when EVERYBODY is in stealth and no one has been found, we can call this the only viable form of stealth. But the difference is, that only SWF's have access to this stealth concept where-as the Solo's do not, exactly for the reason that they do not know whether the team's collective stealth-mode has been breached, thus META strategy compels them to always rush.
I have no problem being stealthy. Wait for someone to get hurt, and stay away from it so other people can get the saves. Do gens. Do totems.
The devs want players rewarded for interacting with the killer which usually leads to long chases, or sacrifices, so a play style against that isn't terribly rewarding.
It's usually the people that can run, juke, and loop like a meth head that gets the points.
@MegMain98
Because of what you mention; the player-experience and the amount of people enjoying SWF, it will be near impossible to go with the secrecy and censorship route.
We're left with only 1 option. Let's make the best of it.
Emblem system that require you to do certain actions and punish who don't get chased but do gens and stay hidden
You have to fill every category to pip, at least a little so an egoistic stealth player like me get punished
Same for killers but for other categories
Except a good survivor shouldn't care if someone else is getting chased. If the killer isn't chasing you, do a gen. It's that simple. You don't need to know if someone else is being chased, you just need to know YOU are not being chased.
Likewise you know immediately when killer is chasing if you see someone get injured. If the killer chases the obsession then you know without them even getting hit.
The whole SWF thing can backfire too. Saying "he's chasing me" and then a moment later he breaks the chase, now others are out of position and thinking they are safe. I've had it happen many times in very intense games with SWF. Miscommunication is a thing, and that can screw you over. Sometimes my group will tell me something that contradicts my solo survivor instinct so I ignore it. I've had people give me bad info that gets me killed.
Giving solo players SWF levels of info is a bad idea. It would just make the game worse not better. You can't expect solo players with no comms to be on the level of players that can talk to each other. You literally have to break the game to make that work, and on top of that SWF gets even MORE info to use. Now that bad info I get doesn't matter, because the game just does it for you.
And if it's REALLY that hard to know when/where someone is being chased then run Bond, Empathy, Alert, or the new Jeff perk Bromance or whatever it's called. You can tell IMMEDIATELY someone is being chased and actively avoid the killer.
No, pumping solo up to SWF is not the way to balance the game. You're not actually fixing the problems as much as you making them more commonplace.
What needs to happen is that SWF groups need some sort of limit imposed. Something like there can only be 1 instance of any given perk in an SWF group. If your buddy wants to run DS/Adren, then you can't. Simple as that. If you are solo, the there are no limits. The bigger your group, the more the handicap. SWF's should be doing team builds anyway, and not use the 1-size-fits-all meta perks for everyone.
@MegMain98 I'm not saying hiding in a bush never works. I've done it before but I also don't rely on it as my go to tactic. I do it sparingly when I KNOW the killer likely won't see me. And the moment I think they did I bolt I don't wait for them to walk up and hit me to find out. The problem comes when you do it all the time and don't run when it's obvious the killer saw you. That's the stealth too many survivors rely on.
@thesuicidefox
When you have a well made game like Dead By Daylight, where the Devs have done everything to try and make things symbolic and conceptually pleasing, the last thing we want to do is artificially force an conceptually unappealing feature in like that.
When the Devs solved infinite looping, they gave things like Bloodlust, which makes sense conceptually. But nothing would feel more forced to push in a mechanic that has a manual way to deal with grouped people just because it desperately tried to deal with a deeper lying problem.
The problem here is; SWF =/= in strength to Solo. And you would want to fix this by by creating ANOTHER artificial, but this time, reverse gap in order to balance things out? Call that clunky or building on top of the problem.
Second:
Because so many people do not understand Stealth as mentioned in this post:
Stealth is not simply referred to as hiding here. Stealth is referred to as the state in which EVERYBODY is hidden.
Only in this state of stealth is being stealthy a valid option. As nobody is looping a killer and wasting pallets while you spend your time boing hidden. Nothing is gained and nothing is lost. You'll have a slightly regressing generator at best.
But this state of Stealth has it's uses; When nobody is found by the killer, all survivors are able to take their time to slowly complete sub-objectives, such as totems, searching through chests, or can wait for the killer to pass a generator before starting to work on it.
As mentioned in 1 of the earliest examples, when the game starts, every survivor could wait at a Gen > let the killer pass > and start working on it.This would be a valid strategy, IF you know if someone was chased or not. Otherwise, for all you know, you are here hiding while the killer has already found someone else to chase.
Another use for this state of Stealth is healing. When a survivor gets unhooked and you know he hasn't found someone else. you win the total time (32 seconds or 16 seconds spread over 2 survivors) in momentum if the people at generators know how to respond appropriately.
This state of Stealth is an opportunity for survivors to realise that they can undo all type of debuffs (including the injured state), while not losing anything. There is only to gain.
Why this is important:
The state of stealth introduces NEW and HEALTHY strategies to the survivor's side. One that can be countered by the killer through the act of finding someone, at which point the benefit is lost.
Features like this are a lot better at making DBD a more healthy, in opposition to the God Pallet phenomenon.
Pallets give control over the game to the survivor. The killer can attempts some red glow manipulation, walking backwards and going for long lunges, but it's up to the survivor to fall for them.
Stealth in this matter isn't solely controlled by survivors. Killers have control over this as well. How they path, where they look, what they predict; It's an interplay of power.
With more healthy and dynamic features like this, survivors would be less reliant on pallets.
For every healthy mechanic that we introduce (while simultaneously closing the gap between Solo's and SWF's), we remove another pallet from the map.
If survivors have a healthy base for survival, killers can get a healthy base for killing, and we will no longer have to resort designing every killer around dealing with pallets or having the flunk competitively completely.
Something I notice about your comments:
When I introduce this idea of closing the gap between Solo's and SWF's you go on about how this would worsen the problem, not solve it.
In your head or in rhetoric, this proposal seems through the roof.
Yet realistically, this idea is only 1 of the many things the devs gave Solo's completely for free:
If we'd remove all the things here that we give to solo's (that "so brutally damage the horror side that it should be rejected"), then Solo survivors would be significantly weaker.
Not knowing which Gens have been completed least to you checking the wrong locations wasting about 30 seconds for every time you guess wrong.
Not knowing who has been hooked forces you to patrol so once in a while, just to make sure wasting a significant amount of time.
But it is clear that you disagree with the Dev's choice to give the Solo information that the SWF already had access to, by the virtue of communication.
Then dead by daylight has a giant history of making these problems common place. from point 1-15 and 17 beyond, we've been heading in the wrong direction...
well at least, according to you.
Then my question is, why is it your obsession to uniquely stumble on the all evil point 16? Is it so uniquely game-breaking that it cannot be implemented?
Or is it that you are only familiar with all the other points that came with the exact same law: "To give a survivor that which could have already been achieved through communication", that your personal experience with those points trumped your previous theoretical understanding, whereas if they had been absent, you would've been an advocate against them as well?
Or is it that you cannot see that power is relative, and that the fact that one can know who has been hooked, thus increasing the chances of someone being unhook dramatically, have simultaneously forced survivors do face difficulty elsewhere: Longer Gen-Time and so on. Balance weightings that you've never seen before, because never was the game balanced around the "invisible hooks".
If, by your philosophy, we could solve this game by taking away all those points mentioned and keep survivors in the dark, because:
Thus we do the opposite and bring Solo's back to the dark ages. Thus solving the ultimate problem.
To me, of course, this seems the worst thing to do in the world, and increasing the gap would terrible hurt the game. For me, the solution seems to be to decrease the gap, and then, we have an objective measure for survivor's strength, which can then be used to balance a relative killer's strength.
Be it that you disagree with the removal of point 1-17 then you must believe that neither increasing the gap nor decreasing the gap is to solution. In order for you to believe that you must believe that we're exactly at a balance point, as you would believe neither extremes.
Then the question would by; why do you believe that?
Why was point 13,14,15 just right, but did point 16 become too much? Why was the current state of information exactly what the (exclusively Solo)survivor's "deserved" and how did it settle exactly around what we by chance currently have?
I believe you don't believe that. By the mere fact that it was already there, one is blinded by it and never really saw it as a problem, nor something good. It was just there. I similarly believe that you would've never had an objection if the 16th point was intro introduced by the start. The overstated effects would not have turned out as radical as you believed and you would've just played along as if it was so common and fundamental as knowing who is alive and who is dead through the HUD.
Dude, the game is very balanced for solo players. It's broken for SWF. You want to break what actually works to make it on par with SWF? THAT is absurd. What needs to happen is SWF needs limits imposed. Asking a group to strategize and come up with team builds isn't "conceptually unappealing" it's balance. If you want to play in a group you have to synergize your builds. You have to SHARE the good stuff so that you can't stack the best perks, and items, and the map, and the fog, in your favor (the latter 3 you still get BTW). Kind of like if you play pretty much any class based team game you want a balanced team. You don't want 5 Widows and a Hanzo.
What's "conceptually unappealing" is giving solo players too much information without them having to figure it out for themselves. You already get tons of cues of what's going on in the trial, we don't need more. Your whole concept of stealth is nonsense. If everyone is hiding, no gens are being done. That's all there is to it. If someone gets chased and you still hide then you are just a bad survivor. Again, it doesn't matter if someone is being chased or not, what matters is AM I BEING CHASED. If the answer is no then you should be doing gens, not hiding. If the killer comes over to you THEN you hide or run.
@thesuicidefox
watches the no communication depip squad depip over 90% of the killers. *
insert okey meme *
Killers have been buffed significantly since then. They also exclusively rushed gens and ran out the gate, leaving others to die if they were hooked. That's a depip in the current ranking system. They also had some pre-established communication (do gens, don't make saves, etc.) which solos wouldn't have. So yea, it's pretty balanced CURRENTLY for solo players. Stop pointing to that BS like it means something. It's a year old and irrelevant at this point.
@thesuicidefox
I have that same pre-established communication, and everybody that has a brain has that pre-established communication.
Similar to how people would know to got botlane with an ADC and a Support In LoL. That form of pre-established communication is available for everybody. Any form of pre-established communication is actually.
No I mean they had very specific tactics in mind for certain situations. For example, if they rush gens and get the gates open, they just leave and don't even attempt to save the 1 guy on the hook, even if it was their first hook. They also didn't bother with totems, they just plow through Ruin. They also planned to split the maps every time, and did gens in the middle of the map. While solo players could do all this stuff you have no way to know what the others are going to do. You hope they make the smart choice but you have no control over it, and you always need to have a back up plan in case they make the wrong choice. But when you say before the game "hey don't save each other if the gates are open" that's pre-establish communication solo players don't have. You know the choices others will make so you don't have to guess what you should be doing.
@thesuicidefox
You also have access to it and so do I, and it's basically the strongest thing to do. That is why it works in League of Legends as well, or any other strategy game. At a higher level (or rank) you know what to do. All communication is in some shape or form pre-established.
These are called expectations, and we have a lot of them.
You are conflating probability with certainty. A player that understands the game as you do is more likely to make decisions you expect. Players that establish tactics beforehand are guaranteed to make a decision you expect. There is a massive difference.
I don't play LOL I play Gears of War. Any high level player KNOWS to make plays for Boomshot when it's on the map, because Boomshot is the most powerful (borderline auto-win) weapon in the game. I'm a diamond level player, the highest rank in the game. Put me on a team with 4 other diamonds and I assure you we will all push Boomshot as a team. However without pre-established tactics or comms I have no idea exactly how my team will plan to go about it. Some players might just straight fly at Boom with smokes and Gnash and just swarm the other team out to make the pick up. Some players might take a tactical position with Lancer and cross any enemy that attempts to pick up Boom. Some players might actually go for another weapon knowing the other team won't contest, then use that weapon to secure Boom. There are like 1000 possibilities of how that can go down, and if I don't communicate with my team I have no clue what they plan to do. But then you look at a pro team that practices very specific strats and positioning, they KNOW exactly where their teammates will be, and when they will be there. They don't need to communicate. If I know I have 2 friendly Lancers overlooking Boom I can make a play for the pick up because I have backup. But if I'm with randoms, even diamond level randoms, I don't have that assurance. Even if I see 2 guys there in cover with Lancers I can't be 100% sure they will cover me as I expect. There is a chance I could run in for the pick up and they decide to reposition, leaving me exposed to enemy fire. I don't need to worry about that if we established before the round that guy 1 will be here and guy 2 will be here and both will STAY there to cover me until Boom is secure, THEN they reposition.
@thesuicidefox
Strategising in games of such a complexity as Gears of War or League of Legends, DOTA or any of the bunch do indeed have a multitude of potions through which they can secure their objective.
They have a lot of variables to consider.
But for every 100 options you have in League, you probably only have 1 in DBD.
In league, to get closer to the nexus, you need to destroy towers, but for that you need to win lane and winning lane is where the complexion kicks in.
It isn't as complicated to see how you would push the turret in DBD (the generator); M1.
and perhaps add 1 if statement to it:
If(killerIsChasingMe == true){
LoopKiller();}
This is why there's a reasonal disparity between Gears of War and DBD when it comes to pre-established communication. With the strategic simplicity of DBD, you will not suffer from it noticeably.
LOL 1 option are you serious? Nah, you have several at any given point, and you have no guarantee that another player is thinking the same as you. You might have the option to make a save or finish a gen, it's not always clear cut which you should do, and that fact of the matter is either option is valid. But then if you say beforehand "do gens don't save" well that just removes all other possible options.
If you really think the game is that 1 dimensional then you are delusional.
So you complain about them to know how to play the game?
Splitting maps, instead of clustering gens.
Leave and survive, instead of reckless safes that get you killed.
Just hit great skillchecks, if you can.
What do you expect survivor to do? Mess around all day and play stupid?