Holding "W" will become in the future a problem and needs to be adressed
I also feel that, survivors start to realize slowly by time that just running forward without looping is against most Killers just the smartest strategy. The problem with it is, it is a very boring strategy which removes all kind of skill play in the game but yet it is the most effective one.
But the big question is, how do you want to adress it? Scott Jund made the suggestion to just reduce the map size and reduce the basic M1 hit cooldown and ofc nerf Save the best for last to compensate that which is a good idea imo.
Dont know if that is really the best solution but I agree that this problem needs to be adressed before it is getting abused too often.
Comments
Would it kill you to be serious for like 5 seconds especially when this hurts your main killer as well? Nurse suffers from hold w a lot surprisingly.
I was never mentioning that Blight need a buff or smaller maps. Killers like Blight, Nurse, Spirit or even Oni are totally fine even on huge maps like Red forest. I was talking about Killers that dont have the mobility and has to run just with W.
And the majority of Maps are big maps, we just have about 8 small maps out of 36 maps.
When did I ever complain about looping lol?
I would rather have fast matches with much real chases than long W matches. Its not only Nemesis who suffers from that btw
In that it's gone from referring to killers who mindlessly follow a Survivor and let them dictate every step of the chase, and who wind up getting looped until the Survivor makes a mistake, to now refer to almost anything Survivors do in a chase that isn't crouching.
Agree if not she suffers even the most.
to now refer to almost anything Survivors do in a chase that isn't crouching.
Wrong. Please don't spread false information.
Yeah its a counter to a specific kind of killer. Ph is the same. Not sure what to tell you, if you choose to play a certain kind of killer its hard to get angry with the survivors for using the best means to counter it. Its like a huntress main getting mad at survivors for ducking and breaking LOS 🤷♂️
Nothing I said was wrong, tyvm. You do realize you're just one person, right?
Killers most definitely use "holding W" to mean literally anything the Survivor does in a chase, regardless of what that term means to you or the OP. You really need to pay more attention if you've somehow never heard a killer talk about a survivor who is straight up looping them like any competent player should, only to get hit with a "Wow, this Surv's just holding W, what a pro."
umm ok
Ultimately what did anyone expect? Most maps have massive dead zones and we have a bunch of killers that you can't really loop since their power is designed to counter that. In the end the most viable strategy is to run.
You would rather have strong loops? I know most killer players just want easier games but come on, survivors gotta have something, yeah?
hold W is part of looping. its not really hold W part that is strong. its the part where certain mechanics in the game force killer to lose distance and gives survivor a lot of distance by force. weakening hold W is treating symtoms of a problem, not what causes the problem to occur in the first place. The problem is safe/god pallets and health states that make the killer suffer 3 second cooldown and 2 second sprint burst that you can use to hold w half way across the map.
Holding W has always been part of survivor gameplay for many years so its is difficult to change it. I kinda wish there was a perk to halve sprint burst from a health state, that would help m1/non-instant killers have some opportunity to weaken the strategy a little bit by equipping a perk.
What can I say, it's just funny to see the term get thrown around so loosely all of the sudden.
Hes just exaggerating
Ooof indeed my fellow survivor! I miss infinites:( they should disable the window blocking mechanic like killers are just a bunch of crybabies, eh? These killer mains and their obnoxious complaints. Us survivors never really b¡tch about anything like what is wrong with these killer mains and their killer sided game? Ha, ha, am I right, eh?
I mean this is a basic strategy, run in a straight line away into a zone where no gens are being done and find some decent connecting loops there. It's quite boring and ######### towards the killer but works better than nothing does in this game. Just pressing w doesn't really work for very long unless you get really good rng and once you're out of pallets wherever you ran into you don't really have a better choice than do the same to find another loop anywhere close or get into the edge of a map to make the killer lose time?
I see issues like grab cancelling and dedicated server things a bigger issue than a strat as basic as this, game's in a good spot regarding that changing this will mean having to rebalance loops, almost every map and a lot of high mobility killers.
Well but ducking and breaking LOS requires effort and skill, it is also kind of fun and it is your fault if you miss because of that, in that term just get bettter. The diferrence is you are not even getting to use your ability as these kind of Killers without the survivors using anything in return for it.
If I play Oni and I miss my dash hit then I am just well ######### I missed or the survivor just made a really good spin, it is either from both sides a nice satisfaction, you cant tell me that you dont get happy when you outplay the Killer with a nice spin?
Now think of just holding w...
No i understand what youre saying. You dont have to explain it, im saying this is the counter to these killers. This is how you beat them. Trying to loop nemesis/ph is silly because they counter looping hard. Youre asking the survivors to throw the game otherwise. This is the design of the killer.
In all cases, looping or not looping, the problem isnt the counter. Its the match speeds. Sure, holding w is boring, but if the matches werent so short youd have time to chase them.
Try running M/A and Tinkerer on him, should help if its that much of a problem for you
Well I guess this is a other approuch to the problem so I get what you say.
I am already running M/A on many Killers but this doesnt fix the problem at all, neither perks shouldnt be there to fix a problem in the game at all.
Running perks to cover killer specific weaknesses has always and will always be a thing. Its like running sloppy/thanta on wraith. Hes strong at getting that first hit but weak at getting the second. Sloppy/thanta cover that weakness by allowing you to play hit and run. Same with bubba, his weakness is vaults. Run bamboizle.
Nemesis you FOR SURE want to run stbfl and tinkerer, im not a fan of m/a on 32m killers, but those 2 counter the hold w playstyle pretty well. Then probably pop and eruption (switching out eruption if you dont want to slow downs).
If we are gonna nerf holding w then tunneling and camping need to go as well.
I think the problem is really more fundamental than just holding W in a chase. It all mostly comes down to how the survivor objective works, generators. You only need one survivor to keep the killer preoccupied while everyone else smashes out gens, any competent group of survivors will know which gens to target first, know when to greed them, etc, etc. Because at the end of the day as a survivor there's only really two things you're doing, getting chased or holding m1 at a gen, everything else just serves to waste your time and lower your chances of escape. The whole game is basically boiled down to time management between the killer and survivors and to fix the flow of the game the objective of the generators themselves need to be reworked. I'm not gonna pretend that I have all the answers but I do have a suggestion and that's generators should have a second condition to activate them. First you complete the generator normally by repairing it but before it can be powered up survivors have to feed them fuel canisters that are randomly scattered on the map. Killers will get to know the location of these canisters so they can defend them if they wish and survivors drop canisters when they're downed. In my mind at least I feel like having it like this splits up the focus of survivors so while you'll have people doing still smashing gens but now you'll have others that will have to risk themselves to search out for fuel to finish the gens off and gives a secondary objective for both survivors and killers to work with. But anyway if anyone has better ideas I'd like to hear them but I just wanted to highlight the real issue with the game really is the generators.
Uh, yeah. He says make every map dead dawg saloon and give every killer free save the best for last. Killers are ridiculously strong right now on all but some of the most survivor sided maps. It really doesn’t need to be made any easier for them.
Solo Q is an absolute blood bath at the moment. Half the maps have terrible loops and most killers that have come out ignore looping anyways. If you play the strongest killers with the strongest builds you should pretty much never lose to anything except a stacked SWF.
isnt it fun, to have people pre throw pallets and hold shift w when your an m1 killer. killer has gotten stale and the thing is it works for them. i snore
As someone who has been playing HSHS, I can promise you, smaller maps will NOT make the game more fun. All it does is make it easier for the Killer to tunnel and camp while also pressuring objectives.
That said, I find myself utterly baffled that we now have Killer players complaining because survivors are running away. As you say above: what are they supposed to do? Stand still and let the Killer down them? Using the "w" key (or whatever key forward movement is for a person) is a fundamental part of playing survivor since survivors have zero means to attack the Killer. At most, survivors can stun - a stun which often only buys them a few more seconds before they are downed. There is literally no reason for a survivor to NOT run away - even if they intend to start evasive maneuvers at some point.
Im leveling up nemmy and im noticing a lot of his add ons apply the oblivious effect. And his perk hysteria (which needs a buff/rework imo) also applies the oblivious effect. It appears bhvr was well aware that the counter was to hold w, as oblivious allows you to sneak up on people. I get that the add ons and perks arent great, just pointing this out
It is ironic. First killers some killers complain about pallet looping. Now they are complaining what is almost the opposite of that when survivors just pick a random direction and run. Then again I play mostly Blight and have been since release the the shift+w thing isn't that much if a problem for me. A little annoying but not at all a problem.(I much prefer looping at jungle gyms because I find it far more interactive)
You can't give survivors a way to break out of chase since most of killers pressure is by winning a chase and downing a survivor, giving a survivor an out especially on demand just diminishes the efforts of killer and puts the game heavily in the survivors favor especially at high levels of play, since you can waste a large portion of the killers time which they devoted to getting a survivor down being able to take away the pressure that killers would get while still wasting that portions of the killers time would just be unfair
Might wanna remove deathslinger's pallet part. Yes he can shoot you over pallets, but usually he can't hit you over one. Most of the time you'll get free because deathslinger can't drag you the way he wants without breaking the chain.
This is the bread n' butter of Deathslinger. And you can do it at a lot of loops, even if they throw the pallet down.
Pressing M1 has already become a problem with 70% killrate and needs to be addressed.
Sorry you have such a problem with survivors running. Not my experience though.
For my PoV, reduce map size by alot will help Killer in general quickly patrol from Gen to Gen. The chase is much easier being lead for working Gen, force survivors to leave. And pressure in general will be increased.
https://youtu.be/2WXNVJ6EXT0In this vid, Tofu said about Devs keep having killer with immense chase power (DeathSlinger, PH, Clown...). Which make survivor kindly hopeless in 1v1 . But Killer still lose in 1v4 because of map size.
I feel that Killer who hard to down but easy to pressure is what to make the game interactive between Killer to all 4 survivors.
As for me, sometimes facing killers who slug. I find the game much much more tense and fun (as long as they just dont leave us bleed to death after all 4 dying)
Why are we pretending this is something new?
Nothing feels better than playing pug in reds and have first survivor pre drop everything and run once you start breaking it. You di this on 7 pallets and its already gg. 10-15k BP each and most of them even depip.
But who cares, just slam gens, open door and end the match.
For me, the most enjoyable time was when Bloodlust turned off. Because you can actually utilize unsafe Tiles and only got outplayed when the Killer was actually better than you and not when they hold W (you see the irony, lel) long enough to gain Bloodlust.
So for me, the ideal scenario would be lots of unsafe Pallets and only a few safe Pallets, which can be looped. I really had a blast, also as Killer, since it felt good to know that I was outplaying that Survivor and not the cheap Speedboost I get for messing up. And it also felt good when a Laurie was able to run me around two unsafe Tiles, because I actually got punished for being worse than her, which would not have happened with Bloodlust.
THIS would be more fun, also for Killers, BUT, once you mention "more Pallets" or "Bloodlust removed"; Killers instantly block this, because they dont know how to play decent in chases. Those are the kind of players who follow a Survivor who is better than them the whole time until at least Bloodlust 2, just to get a cheap Hit in. And those actually think that a Pallet means safety, when we both know that not every Pallet is safe and some are outright garbage.
However, and this is a fact, whenever Survivors complained about Killers like Deathslinger (due to the lack of counterplay) or Pyramid Head (due to lose/lose-Scenarios), Killers said that all Survivors do is looping, they need to change they playstyle and adapt. And this is what happened, and now Killers complain again?
I mean, I know it is only a Meme, but it looks like Killers really want Survivors to spawn on Hooks.
ik you'd love a Nurse nerf, but good Nurses don't double blink when blinking for distance. Nurses only second blink to adjust for hits.
Hag would just run distressing.
Freddy would somehow make Trapper the 2nd worst killer in the game
Good Demo's barely use their portals
Bad nerf idea. "play spirit so you can move at a regular killers speed"
Blight and oni are perfect where they are even on small maps.
Hillbilly is bad enough.
I feel like ever since Nemesis's release, Survivors have finally realized that against the majority of the cast, the best possible strategy isn't to loop, it isn't to predrop, it's to run in a straight line.
I'm seriously considering becoming a Blight main because any time I play a Killer without high mobility, the very second Survivors see or hear me coming, they just tape down W like they're practicing for internet Olympics. No matter if I'm playing a Killer with strong antiloop or not, they almost never try to actually loop anymore. They just hold down a single key because apparently that's high-octane, entertaining gameplay. And, of course, I move 15% faster than they do, so I don't catch up until 27 years later. Only time I can get them to attempt to loop is if they're cocky and overconfident or I'm playing a complete meme of a Killer like Trickster. Other than that, it's like I'm playing the long-awaited sequel to QWOP.
Really fun experience. I'm glad this is the new meta.
So, running in straight lines is OP now? What comes next? Survivors being able to move is OP? Let's just spoon-feed the killers.
Survivors running in a straight line when the killer is still far away is demonstrably mathematically OP, yes. Just do the math yourself, if you don't believe me.
Wait I have heard the "Hard to down but easy to pressure with" before...
That's LEGION everyone's most favorite killer ever and his 30+ min long games!...
O wait most people hate Legion!
complaining about bloodlust in 2021
it's literally a dead mechanic, only noob killers ever use it to get a hit after wasting 45 seconds of their own time just for an injure, complaining about bloodlust just shows how little you understand killer gameplay
you pretend to be an unbiased person, but all you do is spout nonsense about dead mechanics that most killers wouldn't even notice if it was removed tomorrow, very strange mentality
The suggested fixes would literally destroy the game. The meta of making distance and then extending a chase by going around a loop has been the strategy forever. It's just that it hasn't been put into words like that before. The whole reason that survivors are playing so safe is that killers have been buffed to a point where every killer is strong and trying to preserve resources will just get you killed if you're going verses a killer who's worth their salt.
Legion is truely Hard to down & easy to pressure. But his power is zero interactive with survivor. Once he decide to injure you, you're injured. And come after with mending.
Imaging a game play like this
It would make the game play more interactive between 2 sides, you can pay your time to weaken Killers in return of Gen speed, Huntress either reload again, or continue to hunt with 3 hatchets.
Trapper gameplay is one of the perfect example. Except the map is far too large & traps spawn position is too bad, make him Low Tier. And barely fit with today balance.
For me, they can remove Bloodlust tomorrow. You would be for that, I mean, apparently you understand that Bloodlust is not needed?
And if only bad Killers use Bloodlust, why were the Forums full of complaints during this one weekend where it was disabled? Are you saying that most of the Forum Killers are bad at playing Killer? :O
This is something that can't be addressed in isolation and it's part of fundamental design issues. DbD is a composite game. There's a plethora of killer powers and they interact differently with different survivor defenses. Holding W aka making distance is natural against killers who can't be looped. Survivors can't play against one killer exactly as they would against another, barring slamming gens. If you take away the ability to make distance, then you're indirectly buffing anti loop killers to S tier. If you nerf looping, then you're buffing high-mobility. It's all connected.
The point is that each killer must play to their strength and around their weaknesses. When we talk about making distance, essentially every killer has a way to counter or alleviate it via playstyle. Trapper will not chase outside his territory. Wraith can use cloack speed to catch up. Bubba has an insta down and palletbreaker. Stealth killers can play hit and run. Clown can... ok let's ignore Clown. Etc. You get the idea. Of course, even at the end of this process, not all killer will have equal power. But that goes with the territory. It's impossible to make a killer who tbags and stalks you become a peer of one who. can teleport through walls. Unless overboard and break the game in one way or the other.
Ultimately, it will also come down rng and sometimes a killer or the survivors are already doomed the moment they spwan into a map iteration.
P.S. I also find it quite funny for this community to be able to whine constantly about cocky survivors not being 'scared' by the killer and staying in their face, while also complaining about those who do run away from them. But I wouldn't expect anything less.
yes, if you proc bloodlust 2/3 without intentionally going out of your way to do it you need to reevaluate wether you understand how to play killer
But then again, we are at the point of Killers complaining. I have read here that even unsafe Pallets are bad for Killers, because they are still Pallets. Like, people actually get run around those Pallets on new Ormond (those between benches).
And there is some hypocrisy to complain about Survivors holding W while many Killers want to keep Bloodlust in the game, which is, at the end of the day, holding W.
High mobility killers catching up to survivors in a blink of an eye is mathematically OP.
"I have read here that even unsafe Pallets are bad for Killers, because they are still Pallets."
i mean yes a pallet being somewhere is always going to be worse for the killer than no pallet being there at all that's a pretty basic thing isn't it
i've also seen survivors complain about bottom of the barrel killers like legion, so saying what some people complain about is hardly an argument for anything other than a way for you to insert your own biases into something
W meta works against all killers, only the weaker ones can be looped when you reach the opposite side of the map instead of going down in a corner.