zonkednb
zonkednb
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@Mandy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4061406#Comment_4061406
I appreciate that extra context to your initial comment.
Data only tells part of the picture that's true! But it's also an important factor when developing a game and particularly in balancing - but we don't only work on data, we look at the other aspects…but if the data is telling one story, and the sentiment is saying something else, that's where things get more difficult and then it needs deeper look at what can be adjusted to address the sentiment of one side, whilst not impacting the data.
Believe me, I wish things were easy, but when we're dealing with an asymetrical game, plus two sides of a PvP game - its not as easy as people initially think
Ghoul's reputation as a stinker begins and ends at the value for skill trade off. Getting hit by Ghoul never feels like I got outplayed or the killer positioned themselves well for an ambush. It feels like something I have to accept, then run a chase where one mistake downs me.
Ghoul is also a gap closer and a threat in loops too. Those aspects aren't overpowered, but playing against that with the disadvantage of an unavoidable injury is more frustrating than it is tense.
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@guest2w said:
I think a break is well needed for me, thanks for bringing that up, and to respond (for lack of a better word) to some comments:
I usually play with whatever build I want to play with, usually somewhat good but not bad, I know that a better skilled killer can win the match, hense I try to get better.
The current state of the game doesn't frustrate me but, I want to be able to play lower tier killers without having to be better than the survivors by a landslide and the more updates we get, I feel like I need to be even more better than the survivors. I think my in the moment emotions spoke too much in my post.
Thank you all for your comments, it really supported me.Look after yourself, pal. Refresh, play something low stakes, chill and come back renewed.
I do understand how you feel. I'm wanting to get better at Ghostface at the moment and with his current power level you can imagine how well thats going lmao
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Ghoul being fairly unique makes me wonder if there's a level of spaghetti to his code that makes him hard to adjust without it being a whole commitment.
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Piggybacking off @Emeal, the point about refusing to use the best perks has a nugget of truth. Not that using suboptimal perks guarantees a better experience, but instead just kicking back, playing how you want, with what you want, is just a better way of going about things. You might get dunked on by a sweaty group once in a while, but you'll dip down in MMR to compensate a little, making for more relaxed games.
This game requires you to exercise the art of not giving an eff in order to enjoy it. If you need a break to get back to that mindset, do it.
The last thing you said in your post is kinda indicative of the mindset. Yeah, I do think quite a few survivors forget that the killer in their match is just another person trying to have fun in the game, and consider their win condition minimising the killer's fun. Those players, however, are not the ones that would be here worrying about the health of the game. -
@Leon_Loves_Cheryl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4061313#Comment_4061313
I see; so it's moreso a matter of changing the feel rather than the power level.
Well, I still disagree in that regard. I think the visual feedback of the interaction is important to the theatrics of the character. Pounce - chomp - BRAAARGH - instantly back to running just feels kinda weird even if it's a power-neutral or power-positive change.
Fully yes. I do think sometimes people let presentation get lost in the weeds of balance discussion. It would kinda kill the aesthetic to be too far away to hear Ghoul scream like he's in a CS:GO lobby.
I can also understand the mentality of people wanting it changed, though. People feel salty enough about the free injury already, tying said free injury to a stunlock feels almost like the game is thumbing its nose at you, even though the stun doesn't provide either party an advantage. So really it comes down to which is the higher priority; are enough survivors annoyed by this to warrant a change to the aesthetic vision of the character?
Based on what I've seen, probably not. People's issues with Ghoul come from the value/effort ratio. He's high-A possibly S-tier strength, and is only slightly harder to pick up than Wraith, the easiest killer in the game. I think people would be more forgiving of the forced animation if Ghoul had to earn it through reasonable skill expression. -
I really really want to like Chucky. I love his quips, his entire personality. It's peak gremlin wish fulfillment.
But he's kinda just, bad? Scamper is worthless outside of catching new players off guard and breaking a pallet. Hidey-Ho takes six years to come off cooldown, and isn't a particularly good stealth ability to begin with. His real strengh is playing in third person, which admittedly helps, but it's not enough to offset his issues.
I feel in 2v8 his long cooldowns and slow speed hurt even more. The map is bigger, the pace of the game is faster and survivors are more consistently decked out with useful 'perks' in the form of their classes. The best he has is increased charge length allowing for cheeky hits, but even that can be preran/predicted by a competent survivor, and injuries in 2v8 don't apply the same level of pressure as they do in 1v4, so you have to close the chase too. -
@Leon_Loves_Cheryl said:
This is a very shortsighted suggestion. I mean, think about it.
It is essentially a mini-cutscene that makes both you and the killer the participant. What you're asking for is to be able to escape him completely for free while he stands still crashing out. That's not fair to him because he's already paying the price by having to wait several seconds before he can do anything, while you get a speed boost.
It would also just look weird due to the lack of visual feedback on both ends. Being grabbed gives visual feedback to the survivor that "oh crap, my character's getting hit!" Removing this would make the interaction significantly jankier and also give an unfair advantage to the survivor because they are already given enough time to run by the time Ghoul is done crashing out.
Being injured by his power is NOT supposed to be a free ticket to Shack unless you're already positioned near it. Positioning is an extremely important component of the survivor skillcap. You're asking to nerf a killer in a way that makes Survivor less skillful.
I agree this would make the interaction feel janky and more "What just happened" but I think you missed part of the post. OP specifically states that the animation (referred to as cooldown) should be shortened in order to keep the distance once both are back to full movement speed the same. All this would accomplish in reality is allow for less mental reset time for Ghoul, which a nerf to the player rather than the character, and slightly faster chase times due to a second saved on that animation, which is technically a buff but so small it doesn't matter.
Also when Ghoul injures me Shack should immediately spawn on top of us both. /s -
2v8 is brain off, vibes only mode, tbh. It's hard enough to balance 1v4 to everyone's liking. 2v8 requires just enough to be playable but any further time invested has diminishing returns, because there are just too many variables and the game's mechanics are fundamentally not designed around more than one killer or eight survivors.
Besides, I think a bigger problem in 2v8 is that skill-based matchmaking is thrown out the window. I've had games like you describe. Well coordinated survivor teams with solid mechanical skills spread and gens start flying out.
My only change would be to increase the cooldown on Escapist's sprint burst, or reduce the boost it gives to other survivors. -
His dash gives insane scouting potential. Just run vaguely in a curve following where the gens are, pivot if you happen to see someone, else listen and pivot to whichever gen is sounding out progress. It's a guaranteed way to find at least one person, but often more. With twice as many players to find, Oni is feasting.
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@Defnotmeghead said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4060804#Comment_4060804
It's also people like me, who are annoyed that tunnelling only is as viable as it is thanks to perks like Grim and Pain Res.
I dont mind regression perks existing, but its mobility killers overusing regression perks when they dont even need to rely on more than 1 perk that makes the regression meta so annoying. In fact, I wouldnt mind if regression perks would work like exhaustion perks. It used to be. Ruin and Pop were mutually exclusive, you could only have 1, not both. It would be nice if using 1 regression perk would put other regression perks on cooldown. Then adjust the numbers so that you only need 1 regression perk and only really bring 2 if you have a similar situation like Ruin and Pop. Like, you could still use Pain Res and Pop, because Pain Res only has 4 uses and Pop remains useful for a longer time. But running both at the same time you wouldnt be able to use both on 1 gen in quick succession.
On top of that, if people say they have to run it because otherwise they dont stand a chance, is more an issue with the MMR system rather than the pace of the game. Ofcourse the game is going to be difficult as hell if your average chase against any survivor you face is 120 seconds. I've been facing players who "only" have 200 hours playing a certain killer, I've faced that killer 300 hours and played it for at least 100 hours also. Ofcourse I am going to outlive chase.
If I were to demand anything from BHVR, it's to implement some basekit changes that would actively hurt current playstyles a lot. Then reset MMR for everyone. It doesnt make sense that I face 2 entirely different Weskers. One running 3 info perks and 1 regression perk just in case and absolutely demolishing us after merely 5 minutes with 3 gens remaining because we dont have comms, the other one running 3-4 regression perks, tunnelling at 5 gens and slugging in the 2v1 and barely having 1 gen remaining. One clearly fits the MMR bracket, the other got there due to the MMR system not accounting for the fact that killers can force situations to happen that gains them much more MMR than they should.You're right. There are killers with so much innate pressure that regression isn't 100% necessary. At least not stacking it as much as possible.
I think we kinda see the main issue with going after regression perks with a nerf. All it will do is widen the gap between S-tiers and C-tiers. It'll make some killers so much harder to succeed with, and others will be impacted yes, but not by much.
It would make the survivor experience better, but might hurt the variety of killers faced. Trapper matches would be over in a flash outside of a lucky early game snowball, Blight matches would largely play the same. So more Blights, I imagine.
As for your scorched earth approach, it might flatten the curve a bit, but it'd definitely be a risky decision in terms of player retention. It could just as much be the saviour patch as it is the apocalypse patch. -
Hi, I like Spirit.
Are you playing with a group and talking a lot, or listening to videos/songs in the background?
Spirits teleport is actually her turning invisible and walking really fast. Wherever she goes, there's a long hissing/breathing sound that gets louder as she approaches. It's also directional so you can tell which side she is coming from (headphones recommended.)
When you hear the noise, you can presume she is coming for you. You can run, but when she's invisible she also can't see you, so you can walk/crouch if you have good places to hide as she won't be able to hear or see you.
She is still tricky, don't get me wrong, I do better as her than against her, but I hope this helps! -
Correct me if I'm wrong but a lot of the complaining about regression meta these days seems to come from people being annoyed that they feel obligated to run it just to keep up with the pace of the game. This would counter it, yes, but it would also leave many killers high and dry, unable to deal with current gen speeds while also lacking the mobility or zoning to prevent progress. Gen kicks are limited, PR is limited, so wars of attrition aren't really tenable any more.
I do like the idea of a perk designed to mitigate nasty 3 gens. Although many would argue that landing in a 3 gen situation is survivor fault. It makes it a dicey situation because any perk that can undo a 3 gen would massively adjust how survivors have to play. Gen choice goes out the window and which gen the killer pressures no longer matters. Not sure I'm clever enough to come up with a perk that's balanced for this purpose
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Buff scratched mirror.
It's not a very good mirror if it's scratched. -
@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4060420#Comment_4060420
Being able to say "I was right" doesn't really feel good, my dear friends. It never really has.
I feel you. I have a few thousand hours in other games where balance and nerfs/buffs were consistently bad for the health of the game, and I am not going to lie, it definitely makes one jaded.
But, see me for the spritely, bright-eyed newcomer that I am, all full of whimsy or whatever. I've not had to experience the rough patches for DBD specifically, I can only read about them. Looking at old footage regarding earlier DBD, and reading about how the game used to play, the game has overall improved massively. I don't think anyone could argue against that. It says to me that, in general, we should expect changes to tend towards healthy for the game, even if imperfect.
Maybe that's head in the sand, sure, but it's nicer. And if I get to say I was right, then you get a rad new Merchant to terrorise some poor mooks with :D -
Slug if there's another chase to take immediately.
Slug if it's lategame and you need to put pressure elsewhere immediately.
Slug if you are unsure who is around and risk a pallet/flashlight save, but don't continue after you're in the clear.
Slug to avoid the risk of deli/4% (late game specific).
The problem is none of these are fun to be on the receiving end of. Much like it's not fun to get one-tapped by a sniper in a competitive FPS. The difference is one is instantaneous (with a respawn timer) and the other is drawn out of 4 minutes at most, so there's time to grind salt into the wound.
I'm of a mind, however, that as long as the game has mechanics like this, it's unreasonable to tell killers never to use them. The fact that a downed survivor has such a long bleedout timer shows a level of dev awareness that slugging is an expected interaction. Otherwise the final hit would pair into a grab automatically. Survivors getting salty is understandable, but calling you out for any of the above is unnecessary (although in some cases I imagine the survivors don't know your thought process thus presume the worst).
I will say that exploiting slugging as a mechanic specifically to drag out someone's death is unreasonable.A question I will put out there is about my take on slugging to avoid a hatch spawn and secure the 4k: Yeah, it drags the game on for longer even after the killer has "won." But with no official win condition, some may see the 4k as the real win. Plus, if we want to blame the killer for dragging on the game needlessly by doing this, why are we not telling the survivor hiding for a hatch play to stop hiding? Surely they can stroll on up to the killer and let themselves get taken out. That would also end the game. Am I wrong about this one?
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4060316#Comment_4060316
I am dreading it, tbh.
After so many bad experiences with reworks, I fear her next one, if it even happens, may turn out worse than we think.
Until it happens, no way of knowing. BHVR have hit enough to make a game we all put this much time and passion into, so there is a non-zero chance they actually make her fun to play without being busted. A tech-based killer can work. We have Singularity, who isn't entirely awful?
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I hear you in how frustrating it is to get a game like that. Getting tunnelled out (especially when it's super obvious) isn't fun and it's hard not to take personally. The issue is it's viable to do, and sometimes it is the only option for a killer in that lobby, either due to difficult map for their build, disparity in skill between them and survivors, or simply how the chips fall - I've been accused of tunnelling before, but the issue was every other survivor was playing uber stealth and I kept stumbling into the same unfortunate David. Sorry, my King.
The problem is, just how much do we want to complicate this issue, and can we trust any changes to further limit killer options won't be taken in bad faith?
Post-hook endurance is regularly used 'offensively' by survivors to deny injuries/body block, even though the design philosophy was clearly not with this in mind. If this AoE happened, I could easily see the affected survivor chasing the killer around the map to try and deny them their entire kit for as long as possible. -
@Mooks said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4060312#Comment_4060312
as for loud, actually kinda Bill. And Jeff, Michonne, Maggie and others.
The other group. Well. It’s a direction for all survivors i think, but Rebecca iirc is one of the worse/more obvious ones. But pretty much every especially female survivor has some noises in between where you think… what is happening right now??
(And just for the record, i know why they are doing it and get why this will stay a thing and not really completely against it)
Bill is one I can hunt down easily because of how loud he is, but I like playing him because - and I don't know if this makes me a bit sadistic - his pain nosies are legitimately funny to me. His voice acting sounds like a regular dude trying to do an 'old guy' voice if you see what I mean.
As for certain other noises… I can't say I've noticed it myself, but there's a very strong chance it'll become a one of those situations where I can't unhear it now that I'm aware.
Also is it just me or does Taurie have some of the funniest downed noises out of the cast? -
@Mooks said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4060304#Comment_4060304
Well i get why you would think that. But nobody can say anything bad about those sexy Daddy sounds, come on now!
In all seriousness which survivor are you talking about?
Not that I wanna play them I just…
Yano any excuse will make it sound worse. Please just sate my curiosity. -
@Mooks said:
í kinda had to think about the wind chimes on Yamaoka first thing when reading this title. Also the tanuki on the Yamaoka maps.
I do love these small atmospheric sounds on the maps
(Though sound design in this Game in general is great. Well. Not counting certain injured survivor sounds that are either too loud or too much on the pleasure side 🫠)
"too much on the pleasure side"
You're talking about Bill, right? -
@arithmetic_billiard said:
I remember how her drones used to work through ceilings. So you as a survivor could repair a generator on the second floor when the drone is located on the first floor. This was incredibly painful to deal with combined with her undetectability, surge and exposed.
It was impossible to win against her in Saloon and Midwich.
Sounds to me like this was just a required bugfix and not the intended power of the character.
Still BS though, would certainly feed the hate. -
I'm honestly surprised that this thread lead to conflict over killers vs survivors.
Guess it's just a consequence of asymetrical games. A buff to one side is never going to feel great for the other, so resentment is just inevitible. Same with nerfs but opposite effect.
Anyway, I learned a lot from the replies here. Thanks!
I'll get SM one day for completion's sake, but she'll likely be among the last iri killers I get. -
I mean yes, it would reduce queues in theory, but one killer per three survivors would be pretty rough going - I'd actually call it a total balancing nightmare. So much so that I imagine anyone that wanted to play survivor would just stick to 2v8 if it was available. This would split the queues and make both worse.
If only 3v9 was available, I could easily picture survivor players sticking to 1v4 without an enormous BP incentive due to how hard survivors would be farmed in such a mode. -
Definitely a fun idea. I'm not sure how much of a hit losing collision would be. It's the primary way I secure damage with Wraith as it stands now. Also losing Wraith's fast breaks would definitely hurt his chase and his late game as less resources would be burned.
Paired with Coxcombed Clapper (silent bell) would be hilarious, though, to a point of maybe being a little bit cheap. Any gen close to a corner in geometry would be a free hit or grab dispenser. I think this would be enough of a change to how Wraith plays to be worthwhile trying out. I'm honestly at a loss as to whether this would be a meme addon or totally busted.
I'm also not sure what the flashlight part would do in practice. With no collision, no shimmer and no sound, apart from grass moving you'd be completely undetectable. -
Deathslinger is strong in chase.
To my understanding this is to compensate for him suffering from both a low movement speed and no mobility options.
I admit, when playing survivor, I find Deathslinger a frustrating chase because I know it's only a matter of time before I dodge into a shot instead of away from it. But given I waste a good amount of time, it tends to be a favourable trade, especially if you lead him out into the edges away from gens.
Also I'm not sure if my reading comprehension is being thrown off by your formatting but every killer can M1 through windows, vaulting animation or not. It's just more common for Slinger due to how he is designed. -
@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4059858#Comment_4059858
The sledgehammer nerfs she got were, I'd argue, misapplied because of the complaints. There were some real problems and to an extent they still exist, they just weren't related to her basic gameplay loop- which is what the nerfs were aimed at dismantling.
Going back to her pre-nerf state, if you want to fix the few problems she has, you'd be looking at these problem areas:
- Skull Merchant's power didn't and still doesn't provide enough information about how it works to survivors
- Her ability to drop a drone at a loop and "force" survivors to run away is, while misunderstood in its intensity, still something she can do and it is hella boring whenever any killer can do that
- This one's subjective on my part but I really don't understand why she has Deep Wound. If we're already in the neighbourhood might as well just get rid of that
When you understand what her power does properly, in my opinion she honestly becomes pretty fun to play against - the positioning battle of dodging drones is really interactive and interesting to me - but you kinda have to go to outside sources to understand what happens, on what triggers, and for how long. There are a bunch of ways to address this though, it's not an unfixable problem- she just lacks the kind of tells the other killers have.
As for dropping a drone at a loop, they are designed to be played around in loops so it's not as universal a tactic as it is on other killers, but the sort of cheap crappy filler loops you'll find are ones she can force you away from which is just kinda boring. They actually gestured towards fixing this by giving her a brief slowdown when placing a drone, but it wasn't particularly noticeable. A better set of nerfs might include a more noticeable slowdown, so if you do have to run away you at least get some good distance.These are ultimately relatively minor problems compared to some other killers, it must be said, but we may as well talk about them if she's gonna be a hot topic forever.
Aside: Your chosen pfp makes me trust your takes on this topic implicitly lmao.
I mean, I think the proof is in the pudding. Even reading her kit, and how it used to be, didn't really give me any clue what the issue was and what kind of interactions could stem from it, let alone counterplay. I'll consider myself a case study on why you are correct.
Sounds to me like your proposed ideas, with increasing the slowdown on deploying a drone, would work. The way I see it, you can't do it brainlessly anymore, because the slowdown will allow a survivor to leave loop and gain distance, but if you place the drone at the correct point, it'll force them to make distance in a direction of your choosing - make them play dead zones, burn resources or otherwise have the difficulty of their chase increased. There are other killers that do things like that now and people don't take issue. Clown comes to mind, and although very few people go to bat claiming Clown is fun, he doesn't seem to get the same level of hate. -
@jesterkind said:
Others have made the rundown already, but just to cement it: When she released, she had huge problems. She was kind of just not very good, except for her ability to stall the game out until the servers closed after an hour, which she was unreasonably good at doing.
This generated a lot of hate that was amplified a little by her visual design not being super appealing to a chunk of the playerbase. This snowballed into more unreasonable hate, like picking apart her lore, for some reason, even though it was just kinda fine.
I say this to emphasise the intensity of the situation when Merchant first launched.The devs tried a few things with that power, but ultimately reworked her to make her do something completely different. For reference, her drones used to be big AOE fields that provided stealth for her, and were reworked into the shape we have now, with the rotating beams and a chase-heavy, interactive for both sides design.
This rework did objectively fix the big problems Merchant used to have and I would personally argue only added a handful of small minor new problems, but people still continued to hate her largely for irrational reasons. Eventually she also, on top of the rework, got nerfed into the ground until the devs could get around to reworking her a second time, which is where we're at now: light buffs to tide us over until another rework which presumably is still on the horizon.Unfortunately I can't make sense of the lingering hate for you because it doesn't really have any sensible basis, it's just kind of a holdover.
Honestly cements it, yeah. It does sound like she was lame in the beginning. Something about players optimising the fun out of a game. Sure, 1hr isn't optimal, but if it guarantees no loss condition might as well if you're not off to a flying start… Not that I agree with the behaviour, just recognising it's kind of inevitible.
Would you say in hindsight, @skwillexy is correct? The sledgehammer-tier nerfing she got was largely unwarranted and based on player vibes than actual viability? I've actually never come across her in a game before. Guess that's why her reputation seems to straddle two camps; entirely forgotten and vehemently detested.
Out of pure conversation, and a fixation I have on this mystery character everyone hates, what are the ideas for fixing her up? Or is it one of those cases where there'd likely be no way to feasibly make drone gameplay work without it beging set and forget value that's profoundly unfun?@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4059788#Comment_4059788
Exactly. The gen kick limit was introduced in January of 2024, ~10 months after Skull Merchant's release. Even outside of Skull Merchant, the killer meta had shifted to making trials overly long. She wasn't the sole reason for it, but it was a major contributing factor.
I think it's a good thing it's limited. Trying to imagine Springtrap with infinite kicks for example. His mobility absolutely could not exist with how easy it is to regress gens using it, especially using guitar strings add on and info/regression perks.
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@skwillexy said:
She once was reworked to be chase oriented with antiloop drones, however, entitled survivor mains refusing to learn counterplay got her nerfed into the state she is in now. She feels unplayable and BHVR doesnt seem to care sadly
Begs the question what was the counterplay?
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@Daniel_Silva04 said:
I think people didn't like her because she was a very passive killer; her power did everything for her at the press of a single button. But after a lot of complaining from the survivor community, they nerfed her to the ground, and now she is one of the worst killers in the game. They gave her some buffs recently, but she's still very mediocre, and they won't rework her anymore because they don't want to waste so many resources on a killer that almost no one plays.
Sounds to me like survivors were expected to put in a lot of effort to reduce value she got effectively for free. Effort to value ratio should be equal unless skill ceilings are lower for lower effort characters imo.
@[Deleted User] said:
She more or less broke the game when she released. Her original kit combined with the gen kick meta at the time allowed her to stall games until the 1 hr timeout. There were a significant number of players that employed that tactic. Skull Merchant games regularly stretched past 30 minutes unless survivors gave up early.
As to why she's still disliked, it's less clear. The DbD community seems to not understand the passage of time all that well, and that gets mixed with chronically online brainrot. They somehow equate Skull Merchant players of 2026 with the Skull Merchant of 2023, or they hate her current version because that's what all the cool kids do.
Am I safe to assume this is part of why gen kicks are limited in modern dbd? I noticed it because when I first started playing killer I kicked gens like I was paid for it and learned about the limit the hard way.
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I had this mentality until I came up against an Oni that wasn't cracked. Prerun to place something between you and him and you tend to come out okay or at least waste a good chunk of his power. So I don't think he is OP.
The problem with Oni is how individual survivors have little counterplay to him farming blood orbs. In 1v4, you can play perfect, but there are 3 other people that may give up an injury. Suddenly your game got a lot harder because of something you could not control. 2v8 it goes up to 7 other people on top of another killer that may not struggle as much as Oni getting first hit. This isn't so much commentary on him being too strong objectively, but more why often it feels absolutely lame to get demolished by a good Oni. -
Bought Springtrap for the memes before I'd even played an online match. Unironically became my favourite killer, so I'll write a lot.
Things I like:- I like how he has an option for most situations, yet isn't oppressive. Axe is decent anti-pallet but not busted, doors are good gen pressure but not busted and counterable, axe grab counters flash/pallet saves, but requires a skill shot to set up.
- His skill expression is intuitive. I think people forget that some killers' skill expression comes from overcoming extremely strange and finnicky controls. Springtrap's is mechanical with his axe, and knowledge with the rest of his kit.
- Doors mean there's basically no downtime. Good for my short-form-content fried brain.
- Design and presentation is top tier. Hate to say it but his over-the-top drama-kid attitude, great model and superb voice acting make him unironically cool to me, despite, you know, being the horror equivalent of Peppa Pig.
- I actually appreciate how his sound design and size is part of his balancing. Mind games outside of very tall tiles are not really viable. His loud footsteps keeps his ease of getting undetectable in check. It means there's sense in picking your battles and the doors give you the tools needed to do that.
- His laugh.
Things I dislike:
- The controls for his axe are inverted from Huntress (M1 to throw, release to cancel vs release to throw and M1 to cancel). Unless I missed an option somewhere, this just trips me up if I switch between the two.
- He was released with P2W cosmetics. Thankfully this has been curbed but it wasn't acceptable.
- More a global issue but map collision with his axe is endlessly frustrating.
- I'm in the miniority here but I don't like his Mori. I think it looks janky. It should have been a springlock suit, and my conspiracy theory is that was the original idea, but it was proving difficult to make work within the 8sec window so they pivoted to a humanoid Super Meat Boy level.
- His intended counterplay just isn't worth it. The aura reveal is quite short and he's not hard to locate regardless. I love the ideas behind this. They really wanted some analogue of FNAF gameplay to make it in, but it serves as more of a distraction than a genuine new angle on the game.
- Using his doors for mobility as survivor is unintuitive, with unexplained linking mechanics. It's also a very slow teleport that gets you instagrabbed if Springtrap interacts with any other door on the map within its duration. In other words, awesomely presented idea, yet also not worth it.
Now I'm done with my boy, the others:
Henry is a bit tainted for me as his release marked when I started playing online regularly. At my MMR (scrub) the game was just a Henry simulator. Now that's died down a bit, I really like playing against his kit, even if some hits feel a little jank.
Krasue is aesthetically the best killer they've made. The form change animation is extremely well done, smooth and genuinely scary the first time you see it. It's just a shame no one thinks she's worth 9k iri because I've only ever played against her once and I've got other killers to get with iri first.
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I wait at the gate because I'm in soloq, my teammates are not with me and I'm staying somewhere safe while being prepared to go back in for an unhook or a body block. I've never bagged at exit, nor am I a survivor main.
It's annoying when it happens to me on killer, sure, but let me tell you a little something about human nature. Your dream patch goes live, and there's maybe a week tops of survivors getting their just desserts. But trust me, the community will know exactly how the mechanic works and find another way to BM. -
@ConsAnthroid said:
Okay thank you guys for your replies, I am baffled, because it seems that my friend's account is cursed or something.
if it's not too much too ask what region is this? I play EU every day and have always felt the toxicity problem is overblown. Is it an Americas thing?
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- The first few gens against a good team should go relatively quickly. If I'm not getting a quick down, I've found more success choosing certain gens to pressure, sacrificing others to allow for a favourable late-game gen placement. (I agree though that sometimes I end up against cracked survivors that I just can't touch.) Just don't let yourself get discouraged when you hear the complete noise a few times early on.
- I hate pallets too, but I disagree. I think you need to reframe getting pallet stunned or delayed by a pre-drop as part of the game. It's a chase. The survivor's job is to delay you as much as possible, yours is to get them as quick as possible. You have tools to do your job, they need tools to do theirs. If both parties play perfectly there are very few chases that don't end with a down.
- I go back and forth on this one. As a late-comer to DBD I feel it's not for me to comment on culture, but the limited communication has created quite a unique charades system that's fun all on its own. Plus, getting roasted in game for not being good (I'm not) over and over would suck. At least I'm not trying to play if I get that in post game and can choose to stop playing.
- Exit gates being powered is not the end of the game. You can get downs, hooks and slugs. If survivors have a degree of altruism that can snowball. I think it's also more kosher to play dirty during end game collapse, but that's anecdotal experience. Given there are perks associated with it, perhaps if all survivors are already in an opened gate waiting, you get that option, as there are few cases that would happen outside of them waiting for the bag or farming some BP from heals.
- No idea how they'd detect it to avoid false positives (people ducking projectiles etc.) but conceptually this is actually hilarious. It'd only work once but a survivor eating dirt for the bag is the thing dreams are made of. To be frank, however, I see no way of implementing this that only targets BMing players, and said players will just find a new way to BM without getting debuffed.
- All this will do is narrow the skill gap between veterans and new players, and diminish how rewarding getting better at the game feels. Keep in mind higher MMR survivors will generally face higher rank killers, so it's double dipping. Also I SWF with my partner sometimes. They have many more hours than I do. The lobby would be harder because of her MMR than I'm used to, and harder again due to less resources. It'd make playing with friends in a causal manner even harder than it already is.
- The first few gens against a good team should go relatively quickly. If I'm not getting a quick down, I've found more success choosing certain gens to pressure, sacrificing others to allow for a favourable late-game gen placement. (I agree though that sometimes I end up against cracked survivors that I just can't touch.) Just don't let yourself get discouraged when you hear the complete noise a few times early on.
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Yes they could.
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@TheArbiter said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4058647#Comment_4058647
The worst part is that addon isn't even good enough, it should let you pass through without triggering the trap, but we all know that it shouldn't be an addon to begin with
Adjust the add on so that you can trigger your own traps again (no stun) and doing so provides an aura read, mild haste, or something. Maybe a temporary effect like Springtrap's Blue add on that shows gen progress, so trapper knows where to pressure and wastes less time idly patrolling - then again that might be a crutch for someone like me without enough hours to have the necessary game sense.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/464424/one-easy-fix-for-trapper
- Addon rework.
- Make him start with 3 traps
- Decrease trap setup time from 2.5 seconds to 2 seconds. (setting speed addon basekit)
- Decrease trap pickup time from 1 second to 0.5 seconds.
- Slightly buff the hitbox of the traps so that you can place one right under a window and it still hits a survivor, or that you can place one near a pallet and they can't wiggle around it slightly to still walk through the trap.
- Trapper is no longer stunned when stepping on his own trap (although the trap will snap closed still)
- Put 1 trap near each generator to start
- Increase the setting buffer from 1.5 meters to 8 meters so you can't put too many traps close together (to prevent basement trapper being a thing)
- Increase the haste when setting a trap from 7.5% to 10%.
- Make the haste when setting a trap "build up" So basically you build up the haste as you channel the trap, so if you cancel it early, you still get like a half second speed boost.
- Make escaping a trap no longer RNG.
- For example: Currently its, every failed attempt, increases your chances of success by 16.67% until it reaches 100%, so the 6th attempt is a 100% chance to occur. This means on average it will take a survivor 6 seconds to escape at ~3 attempts on average.
- Instead make it just be a single attempt, that takes 10 seconds (making the addons for this basekit) to remove YOURSELF from the trap, and only 2.5 seconds for another survivor to remove you from the trap.
- New Skill: Juggernaut
- When a survivor steps in a trap, press the secondary ability button to immediately face that survivor. The trapper then moves in the shortest path to that survivor increasing speed until he reaches 10 m/s. If the survivor escapes the trap, the trapper will continue moving to the last known location of the trappe survivor. Once he arrives at the trap, if the survivor is in the trap, trapper will automatically down the survivor (or can pick them up from the trap by pressing the button again). If the survivor is not trapped, the killer gains killer instinct on that survivor for 10 seconds. Juggernaut can be cancelled at any time and then goes on a short cooldown.
This isn't perfect but its a start. This will:
- Give him more traps
- make him setup faster
- Make him pickup traps faster
- Make him move faster when setting up traps mid-chase, or able to cancel the power early for hastey mindgames
- Survivors can't RNG luck out of a trap anymore
- Trapper can't hook everyone in the basement easily anymore and just setup a ton of traps.
- New ability gives him some map control. If he sets up a web of traps he can leave that web and if a survivor hits a trap he has a chance to get to them.
I really love all those ideas. I wanna play Trapper more but I find him so clunky. Basically every suggestion you've made addresses not only the weaknesses I've found, but also what makes him not fun to play.
The new ability though is hilarious. I can only imagine witnessing hyperspeed Trapper zoom past at 250% once fully ramped up. -
Sometimes it's just the better choice. On the rare occasion a Torchbearer is actually good at looping and sticks to nearby tiles, it's suicide to try and hook a downed survivor without at least driving the other away with an injury or zoning.
Sometimes there's a gen at 99 and I know someone is trying to tap it. The hook animation would delay me just enough to allow it to pop.
Sometimes there are nearby free hits/downs and I'd be purposefully sabotaging myself by not going for them.
I've never slugged to tilt someone or be mean, but I have done it if there's something I need to sort before hooking. Sometimes I've lost track of where I downed them and I feel bad, because it might look that way, but actually I'm just bad at the game.
Also you get unbreakable for free in 2v8 so you can't really get slugged until bleedout unless you decide that's how you wanna go. -
I think there will always be need for M1 killers as they engage the most with the standard gameplay loop and their skills transfer 1:1 to every other killer (except Nurse). Buffing them to a point where they are no longer M1 would get rid of that.
It's also risky trying to add passive boosts to bring them in line with the killers that require active skill expression to gain the same kind of value. Sure, you could make gens progress 25% slower just because the killer is Wraith, but if this brought Wraith to Blight/Nurse levels of viability without any additional input required it'd be a fine line before they're just unfun to play against.
Maybe M1 killers only lose 1 stack of Bloodlust instead when breaking a pallet instead of resetting entirely. It'd make holding W to the next tile not as certain a thing, probably force more pallet burns quickly, taking away resources. -
@TheArbiter said:
Gotta love how by default his own power attacks him.
Probs a skill issue on my part but I cannot play Trapper without the add-on that stops this. It's base kit as far as I'm concerned and he just gets one less slot to play with than everyone else.
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Swarming hooks and piling onto the first few gens as opposed to spreading out, from what I've seen. The amount of times I've been unhooking a teammate, healing them, then seeing 4 people ditch a gen to sprint over and help with the last 12% of the heal is ridiculous.
As for gens, sure, we burn the first 1-3 quickly, but end up with a 2v8 version of a 3 gen (5 gen?) because we cleared spawn so quickly. If against a mobile killer, we just end up with 6 members of an 8-man team pressured off gens massively killing progress.
Honorable mention to the torchbearer guys that crouch in the world's most obvious bush, giving away extra downs/injuries for the sake of an ill-advised hero play. -
Steve's scream was the sound I remember specifically the first game I had as killer where I learned that survivors can sabotage hooks.
It took me a little while to get past that and not find that sound a horror sting all on its own whenever I was carrying a downed surv. -
@Balrog said:
I have so many!
-Characters in heels have the best footstep sounds
-Gen repairing when you pull the little levers
-The scritch scratch of healing someone
-The Dredge's breathing sounds
-Trapper's squeaky pantsGonna boot up trapper in a custom game tonight and walk about a bit. Haven't played him enough to notice the squeaky pants but now I simply must know!
Speaking of trapper, they really got the SFX for setting traps and them going off right. Just setting a trap feels satisfying, the sound on its own making me giddy at the thought of someone stumbling into it. And when it goes off - chef's kiss
Gen repairing is another one. It's such a simple task that I feel the sound design alone helps keep it from being boring. The sound of it getting faster, the little zaps, creaks and clunks. It sells this idea of accomplishing something really well. In a lesser game I'd struggle to do an objective this simplistic without getting bored in seconds, but they managed to keep me locked in somehow. -
@tjt85 said:
DBD does have some excellent sound design. There are way too many things to mention but I some of my favourites include the way Trickster and Clown chuckle to themselves, Meg Thomas falling from a height (I like all her voice acting, tbh) and The Huntress when she gets extra angry after a stun (I'm sure you know the specific sound that I mean).
There are some goofy sounds that I enjoy too, like Myers getting stunned (please never change this). And Steve's old scream, of course (R.I.P).
I hope they don't revisit any more older characters to give them new VAs. I think if something has been in the game for a very long time and it doesn't affect the game play, it should really be left alone. I think Joey and Susie should have their own voice actors, instead of sharing Frank and Julie's. Just to make them feel more like characters in their own right and less like cosmetic options. Hunk should get his own SFX too, since the angry teenager sounds don't suit him well.
I didn't even think much on the survivor voice acting but you are right!
I'm still somewhat fresh so I haven't got everyone down pat, but the voice actors really do have some lungs on them. Some of the hook screams are good enough alone to remind me that, at its core, DBD is a horror experience.
I didn't think on the iconic side of stuff, however. As I haven't been around from the start, maybe it slipped my mind. Sure, changing either Wraith or Billy's idle sounds would be nice as its super noticeable they're the same sample pitch-shifted, but that would be erasing a decade of history. Plus, I think comparing older sound design to newer is an interesting exercise on its own! -
I don't think it's as pervasive as 9/10 games, or even 1/10 games, but having played almost exclusively 2v8 to farm up BP (new player, a lot of perks to unlock), I can say it does happen on a rare occasion. Not right on top of the killers, but I have ended up having to stealth or take chase from a Nemesis or Trapper within the first 15 seconds of the game, which could only happen if the spawns were quite close.
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Make Wesker's footsteps louder
He's not overpowered in the slightest, but tiny TR Wesker is the only thing in the game that has made me audibly scream so far. ):
Jokes aside, I'd like something marginally more interesting with the tonics. I think people overstate how strong they are for survivors, as they are a limited resource that increase in value over the course of the game, but the longer they are left the more likely it is a killer is going to to snag them for a speed boost. The speed boost is not really all that important, but denying hook state recovery is huge.
Still, if survivors get to reduce their opponents' progress towards their objective, let tonics do the same for killers. Instead of a speed boost, have the blue tonic block the gen with the most progress for 15 seconds, maybe the green could cause a PR like effect?
Also, maybe I'm just unlucky, but I've been killed by the anti-camp cage teleport twice, as it has moved me away from my entire team more than once because a killer walked past. Not sure the solution but would prefer something a bit more consistent. -
Thought it was just me.
I'm sure there's an element of negativity bias but I feel like I'm playing around the zombies more than both killers put together whenever Nemesis is out and about.
I don't think it's particularly overpowered, though. It's just annoying.
In 1v4 sometimes I forget there are even zombies in the map. Difference is stark. -
As someone who sucks in chase, I agree with this. Give some of the BP I earn hiding at the furthest gen to the heroic Ace carrying me while I play Don't-scratch-your-nose Simulator.
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Anecdotal here, but as someone who only really started playing the game this year (I've owned it for years but played like 3 custom games in 2022 then dropped it), I've found toxicity super rare. Sure, I get hit with the occasional bag when I get pallet stunned, and I've seen an 'ez' here or there if I allow a 3 or 4E, but it's most certainly not the majority of games. As said above, most games end in silence, or someone actually being nice because I have a habit of memeing a little as killer without actively throwing the game.
In fact, on my worst day, I got matched into a SWF that was clearly far above me. Gens were popping so fast I couldn't conceive of how. Survivors always knew what path to take, where to bait me to allow for gen progress etc. I tried to play around it, but did not have the game awareness needed to understand where I should have put my priorities. I don't think I got more than a single down and that came from happenstance. They gave me a few bags at the exit gate, but then in post-game one actually said sorry. Told them I was doing my best as a baby killer and they said I did pretty well for sub 100hrs (with most of those at the time being in menus or custom games). They probs didn't think I was as fresh as I was, but upon learning that, the attitude shifted. They even told me where I went wrong (I was looping brainlessly instead of considering direction and where they might try to chain to).
I do think I might avoid it a little more than most because I go in with positivity first. Any rage I keep private lmao. I always hit with a 'ggwp' even if it was an 8-minute humiliation ritual.
I could just be lucky though.