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@GroßusSchmiedus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3683634#Comment_3683634
- You completely ignore how much of the communities opinion is based around content creators, even those who aren't watching them will likely hear them sooner or later by someone blindly parroting them, i don't really watch any content creators except for a very few and i still hear a lot of others who i seriously can't be bothered to watch their videos/streams like Scott Jund for example.
- The ones defending Skull Merchant were in the extreme minority, and the claim that 3 Genning was never condemned or shamed is COMPLETELY made up by you, just see the community reception on this. Hell its mostly fixed and STILL people associate her with this to this day, proven by your post. The complaints about her 3 genning are some of the most frequent things you can find, still some of the videos with the highest view count on youtube regarding SM, BHVR gave her one of the fastest reworks ever and nerfed 3 gens after. And if your point is that a few ones who defended it were a problem then you're a hypocrit based on the first sentence of your post.
- An opinion isn't more right because its held by a group rather than an individual, thats not how anything works, its the experience and arguments that matter. If only 2-3% play against or as her enough to comfortably say they understand her mechanics than the 97% doesn't matter in any way since they are unable to give any meaningful input, its like saying someones input about treatment of diseases is just as valid as the one of a specialized doctor because he also got a human body even if he doesn't even know what what a skeleton looks like.
I don't know how, but how 90% of your comments completely repeat my thoughts? I don't really bother to answer to everyone, but i don't really need it, since I would just write almost same things as you. Love you, Birdmate, you are a bright mind, fighting for truth and not for convictions.
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@concubined said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3683474#Comment_3683474
Omg you’re so right how could I forget him imma edit it rq
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damn I can edit the poll :(
It's okay, let's my comment be your poll's vote for Billy :3
I don't think many people will agree with it anyway
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I'm think probably Billy just for his huge potential and skill ceiling. In right hands he is insane, but not op.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3683403#Comment_3683403
Here's the question i have for you though.
So what?
With the 8 kicks max on a gen, she does that, you run away, she either:
A) kicks the gen, now she has less kicks
B) Doesn't kick the gen, your progress you did stays.
C) Chases you
If she kicks the gen, you just wait till she leaves and go back, repair the gen back, and by the time she gets to you she has to kick again, leaving her less kicks.
If she doesn't kick the gen, your progress you made stays and you just go back to it and continue working it.
If she chases you, great the rest of your team has time to do stuff.
So you just do that for a bit until you finish the gen. If she refuses to commit to a chase, you WILL outrepair her one way or another.
This is literally what i did on screenshot above. I was playing with friends, so it was slightly easier, but even in solo it's not hard prerun every time you see killer comes to your gen. Complaining is easier, i guess.
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@GroßusSchmiedus said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3683438#Comment_3683438
Its more or less just about making sure that survivors don't get punished for doing nothing wrong. And as someone who occasionally plays Skully, and when i played against her i can tell you that teammates getting claw traps randomly (to the point it looks like griefing tbh) is more common than you might think, its not really cool if the survivor who disabled traps and avoided all of them gets punished instead of the guy who just ran around not paying attention.
I think she gets overly hated because the macro gamesense of many players in DBD just suck, same reason why so many hate Plague even though she can be dealt with if you know how to play against her.
She doesn't need to get nerfed, just some changes to make her better for both sides, but even then i think most will hate her because of the hive-mind mentality of much in this community, hating her is simply lazy content that gets clicks so many streamers/youtubers and their fanboys who eat anything up won't stop even if they have to be completely dishonest at every turn, hell some of them are in this forum, i saw people who literally thought that Skull Merchants drones chased survivors like Nemesis zombies or Knights guards, these are among the people complaining about her despite apparently not even knowing the most basic facts.
Completely agree with every word.
I think she gets overly hated because the macro gamesense of many players in DBD just suck, same reason why so many hate Plague even though she can be dealt with if you know how to play against her.
And for the same reason Onryo and Pinhead are still pub stompers.
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@GroßusSchmiedus said:
I agree with him to some agree, she is not as bad as some other Killers imo, like playing mending simulator against Legion, or high mobility Killers rushing/teleporting back to hook to tunnel with 3-4 slowdown perks. I take a Skully over these any day.
There are aspects to her kit that are annoying and could use changes, but even then i think its not that bad as some other Killers i dislike a lot more.
- Haste, its out of control often for both sides of the chase, i can understand why it feels bad to get downed because Skully got a speed boost because someone else across the map just ran through drones.
- The Undetectable is very weird and i would like it to be changed back to how it was before the rework, in fact there should be a brown that removes claw traps completely but buffs the hell out of the undetectable, like 20-30s everytime you activate it.
- The deep wounds feels a bit unnecessary and overkill, it already injures and breaks survivors to enable Skully to start the chase before they can heal.
I think she could have her haste and deep wounds removed, and be compensated somewhere else, like giving her the ability to shock the survivor once per clawtrap (which destroys it), which acts like Doctors shock, preventing a vault, canceling a healing for hemorrhage, enabling DMS etc.
About 1st point: it should not be a big deal, because good survivors will never brainlessly run into drone and therefore give her haste. So now you mostly get punished for your teammates being bad.
I personally won't advocate for change or not to change her, since i like to play her from time to time, but don't really care about her, but nerfing B tier killer is strange idea. So yeah, with removing something from her kit, she definately should get something instead. Idea with shock is very interesting btw!
@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3683432#Comment_3683432
For me personally, I'd just rather not waste my time.
It's one thing when someone hates a Killer for some dumb reason. Like, I kinda really hate Trapper but I'm not gonna give up against him.
It's another thing when the ENTIRE community (besides the avid SM fan club) despises the Killer.
Where theres smoke, there's usually fire.
Nah, not really. Most people are just not honest even with themselves and hate to leave comfort zone. And believe me, no matter what new rework she will get, if she remains at least somewhat viable in terms of strength, people will hate her with the same force. The only way to satisfy her haters is to make her F tier killer.
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@Seraphor said:
People asked to make it more chase oriented, they did.
In theory, not in practice.
Every SM still plonks their drones right next to a gen, and then immediately returns to that gen the moment their drone is deactivated.
I personally saw such SM only once since her rework and this is how she ended up. All other SMs were Chase Merchant and i had 0 problems with them.
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AGREEEEE. Some challenges are okay, but "in one match" restriction just make it nearly impossible to do. Like this, or "kill 4 survivors in the basement in 1 match", "grab 2 survivors from gen in 1 match", what the hell are these challenges? Are they even tried to play it themselves?
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He doesn't need rework. EMPs don't start printing unless previous is not used, Soma Family Photo basekit, some QoL with biopods and you got me as a regular Singu player.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/408989/isnt-a-bad-mmr-mostly-communitys-fault
Warning: big wall of text ahead, TLDR: the problem is the MMR system, but it is a tough problem to solve.
The problem is MMR and how its figured. How matches are figured out, and not the idea of MMR itself.
Basically, MMR is determined only based on kills and escapes. MMR (which is basically elo: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_rating_system) works as follows:
You have 2 players with some rating before the match. You take that rating and run it through a mathematical formula to determine the probability of one side winning or losing. Then you play the match. Based on that probability, the player who loses, loses points, and the player who wins gains those points. You can find an elo calculator here: https://wismuth.com/elo/calculator.html
Basically just punch in a number for each player, and it outputs a probability for "player 1" expected score. When you use the chess version of it (the default) that is the probability they will win. So if you have 2 players who are rated 2000, the probability is 34% that either player will win and a 30% of a draw (meaning you have a 64% to not lose). If one player is 1500 and another is 2000, the probability of the 1500 rated player winning is 2%. That is how much of a difference the rating makes. Now, this is elo for sure, but MMR is just elo with some flavor added to the formula's in calculating stuff. USUALLY most games "secret sauce" is how they calculate k-factor. Which you can read about in the elo wiki page i linked above.
Because DBD is figured as 4 1v1's in a match instead of a 1v4 it means this:
A win for the survivor is an escape through the gates
A draw for a survivor is an escape through the hatch
A loss for a survivor is a dead
A win for the killer is a kill
A draw for the killer is a hatch escape
A loss for the killer is an escape through the gates.
Keep in mind that a lot of the following is speculation on my part based on things the devs have said in videos, streams and other places about the mmr system and not fully proven unless otherwise stated:
Now, enter DBD and the problem with it. There are 3 problems with it. The 1st problem is the most obvious, and that is how they match players. In theory, most games try to match you with players within 50-100 points of you (depending on player counts) this is because of that disparity you saw above. the difference between 500 points means a 98% chance of winning vs losing. 100 points is still big, but much smaller at around 23% chance the lower rated player wins and a 25% chance of a draw, 50 points is better because it brings it to around 29% chance the lower rated player will win with a 28% chance of draw. Still a tough match, but starting to get closer to "fair". Now of course this is balanced out by the lower rated player winning more points if they win, than the high rated player if they win. So in theory, if both players played an infinite number of games, their ratings should stay the same.
But, back to DBD. How does DBD match players? They do it with tiers and an mmr ceiling. So instead of matching players based on their rating, the player's ratings put them into tiers, and players are matched within their tiers. Not much is known about DBDs tiers, but the "MMR ceiling" is known relatively (but has changed before). So, keep in mind these numbers ARE NOT REAL here and are just an example.
0-500 mmr = tier 1
501-1000 mmr = tier 2
1001-1200 mmr = tier 3
1201-1400 mmr = tier 4
And so on. So this means that, if you are in tier 4, and are just barely there, at 1201, you could be matched with someone as good as 1399. Which if you saw in the probability calculations above, leads you to being very unlikely to win your game. The MMR system does TRY to keep you still within a small range of players, but their goal is to get you into a lobby in around 60 seconds. So if it starts taking more than 15-20 seconds, its going to stop doing that and just spread out across the whole tier to start getting you into a match quickly.
This is also exacerbated by the MMR ceiling, which is, the "highest" tier of players has a cap, and if your MMR is ABOVE that cap, you are just put in the highest tier. That cap, last people discovered, was known to be around 1700. This means that if your MMR is 1700, you are in the highest tier, and if your MMR is 2500 you are in the highest tier. So, you can be matched among players in those tiers.
So what exactly does the lead to. There are very few players at "high mmr" which i would see as being above 2k. If you go back to the chess world and look at the rating distribution you'll see: https://www.uschess.org/archive/ratings/ratedist.php (keep in mind the data on that site is from 2004, but chess ratings haven't really changed much since then and for our purposes rough percentages are good enough). You'll see that the 2000-2099 bracket contains 1516 players out of 65k. This is around 2% of the players.
Now you see why matchmaking has problems. Think about how many players there are in DBD. This site says they have 500,000 - 700,000 players roughly every day: https://activeplayer.io/dead-by-daylight/ There's no telling if that is accurate or not. But lets say that DBD has 500k people playing at any given time total to make the match easier, that means that if you are a 2k rated player, there are around 10k players in your rating. Now factor in that these are players all around the world, regions, playtimes, ping etc. and all kinds of stuff. And its likely that every time you match, there are probably only a few hundred players who you are capable of being matched with for a fair match, or potentially even less if you play in less active regions.
This means that if you were 2k rated, and they tried to get you in a "fair" match. You are probably waiting a solid 5-10 minutes, if not longer, depending on timezones/regions etc., just to get into a match. For online games, especially ones with short matches like DBD, this is unacceptable. You can wait 5 minutes for a match in DotA because matches are an hour long, so the wait time to match ratio is pretty short. But a DBD match can be over in 5-10 minutes. Waiting 10 minutes, just to play a match that ends in 5 is not good for the health of the game.
This means that, matchmaking likely spreads pretty quickly, and starts matching you with whoever in that tier. This means that people who are just barely in the highest tier, are now put into a pull of players way above them. Look back at that rating distribution chart. There are 4.5% of players that are in the 1700-1799 range. Now remember, a 100 point difference means that you have a 23% chance of the lower rated player winning. Now add up all of the players above that range. There are 8110 players in the 1800+ range, that is 12.3% of the players. In DBD terms, this means that if matchmaking starts taking longer than 20-30 seconds, you now 3x more likely to be matched with/against players that are more than 100 points of rating above you, meaning that your chance of winning goes from being 45-55% to being far below 23%. If you look at that distribution, the average elo of the person you'll be matched with at that point will be around the 2000-2100 range. Which punching that into the elo calculator means your chance of winning your match is now only 8%.
This is why the matchmaking "feels horrible" because if you aren't among the top of the top, but are still in the top 5% or so, you are more likely to get matched with people in the top 0.5-1% than you are with people who are near your rating. And if you are among the top of the top, it is even worse for you, because there are so few players in your range, you are likely to play people FAR FAR below you. This is why you see content creators like Otz, and Tru3ta1ent and Ayrun and hens and so on, win like 95% of their matches. Because of the sheer number of hours they have in the game, they are really really good, and their MMR is likely very high, probably in the 2500-2800+ range (chess grandmaster range). So statistically, that is about right based on the players they are getting matched with that they win basically all their games.
Now, i said that this is the 1st problem MMR in DBD. This is why matches feel so wild, depending on your time of day, the quality of your matches can vary widely.
The 2nd problem is how the results of the game are calculated. For survivors, the system does not see the match as a 1v4. It sees it as a 1v1. And for the killer, it does not see the match as a 1v1, it sees it as 4 separate 1v1's. To put it simply, lets say you have a match of players all around 100 rating points of each other:
Survivor 1: 1800 mmr
Survivor 2: 1850 mmr
Survivor 3: 1890 mmr
Survivor 4: 1825 mmr
Killer: 1875 mmr
Now Let's say that the match is a 2k/2e. And Survivor 1 and 3 escape, and survivor 2 and 4 are killed. Well this means that the killer lost 2 1v1's and won 2 1v1's. And 2 of the survivors lost their game, and 2 of them won their game. Then running these through the elo calculator it will work like this:
- Survivor 1 gains 12.1 points and the killer loses 12.1 points
- Survivor 2 loses 9.3 points and the killer gains 9.3 points
- Survivor 3 gains 9.6 points and the killer loses 9.6 points
- Survivor 4 loses 8.6 points and the killer gains 8.6 points.
All totaled up here are the new elos:
Survivor 1: 1812.1
Survivor 2: 1840.7
Survivor 3: 1899.6
Survivor 4: 1816.4
Killer: 1871.2
So the killer lost rating for this game despite it being a draw (this can happen in elo though and is normal) and the survivors gained and lost points appropriately.
But again, brining it back to DBD terms, this just looks at the kills and escapes. It doesn't care that this match was like this because the killer hooked Survivor 2, face camped them for 3 hook states, then had NOED and slapped survivor 4, and hooked them right next to the NOED. All it cares is that the match was a win or a loss.
Similarly for survivors, it doesn't care if one survivor hid in a locker in the basement all game and did nothing before going through the exit gates, all it does is count as a win because they went through the exit gates, and the teammate that finished 5 gens or ran the killer for 5 minutes sacrificed themselves at the last second to unhook them and let them get through the gates.
So this bears in mind, how do you fix these problems. It is tough for sure, but i would do a few things:
- Restructure the game itself to make matches last a bit longer. I'd shoot for around 20 minute matches.
- This means a ton of things, you need to make it hard for survivors to get out of a match early (tunneled),
- you need to slow the gens down (maybe you have to repair 6 gens now?)
- Or create some other kind of objective (gen parts).
- Because right now (for both sides) this game is a rush fast, just rush the gens, just rush through a single survivor's hook states as fast as possible.
- These longer games means it becomes more acceptable for people to wait maybe 3-5 minutes for a match and you can get closer and fairer matches.
- Restructure matchmaking rewards, so that survivors are a team and win or lose as a team. If 2 survivors get out, everyone gets a draw. If 1 survivor gets out, the survivors lose (but maybe they lose slightly less than if 0 got out) and so on.
This was long, but i wanted to close by saying a lot of this is speculation based on videos and things i have seen of the devs. And should not be taken as pure fact. It is likely that the system does not quite work this way, but based on what they have said about the system, this is how i SUSPECT that it works. If anyone points to anything that is wrong, or a dev comes and corrects me i will happily edit my post on things that are wrong.
It was interesting reading! Thanks for it!
I think "better MMR" could work even without making match longer (but i'm agree that game is too fast nowdays). I'm doing a post rn with example about how MMR should work, but long story short: you should gain matchmaking points not for killing/escaping, but for how useful you were for a team and how good you performed as a killer based on different metrics.
@Blueberry said:
In an idealistic scenario good matchmaking sounds great. The problem is that the game is extremely unbalanced. So bad matchmaking covers up the games balance issues and makes it function. The game isn’t balanced for accurate good vs good matches. This is why for example in comp in order to try and make it as balanced as possible there are dozens of made up extra rules. They pick one of the better killer maps rather than the average one you’re gonna run into in most game, as well as heavily limiting survivor perks and items.
Yeah, agree, this is what my 3rd paragraph about.
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@ChuckingWong said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3683162#Comment_3683162
Prefer quality over fast. And it doesnt need to get fast to the point of putting someone brand friggen new into my lobby.
The game has the population for quality, I think the patience problem is a separate issue. Ill take some lag if it involves putting me into a different region ... whatever.
The deviation in a lobby like this just is unreasonable and should never happen.
Killer role was literally, without any exaggeration, unplayable. I remember that I lost exactly more than half of the matches (or somewhere around 80%), and each of them was unbearable and very stressful.
And I really hope this isn't true. I would honestly need footage of your play. This is something wrong on an expression level if you are losing 80% of your matches as killer. You dont run into SWF comp teams a majority of the time, no one does, so that is not the issue here. Not even the highest MMR killer mains in the world do. So this is definitely an expression issue on your end.
Really upload some footage, I need to see a killer losing 80% of their matches and have it be something out of their control.
And you dont even need the strongest killers in the game to do this. Friggen pig "mains" dont lose this many matches even with their dog doo doo camp/tunnel/wait play style. Even Meyer's mains dont have this issue...
Even the top players in the world, get absolutely dunked on in their survivor SoloQ matches. Just load up any stream and watch. Watch Hens, a comp tourney survivor player, get dunked on in SoloQ, 4 genned and tunneled out of the game sometimes. But then they load up killer and easily win over 70% of their matches.
You dont even need to be a killer "main" to be pretty successful playing killer.
Should i get back in time and record it for you? Or you wrote a ton of text without even understanding what i am talking about?
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@ChuckingWong said:
I dont see how its anyone's fault but BHVR.
Had a match where there was someone with 5800 hours, 200 hours, 74 hours, and a private. None of them were grouped up either.
Look, trying to show my point once again:
- Searching for equal players takes a long time
- People didn't like long queues
- BHVR changed it so queues are not so long, but players are not equal also, because you can't find it so fast
While i agree, extremes like in your example are completely on BHVR, but community prefer fast over quality. No?
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@Pulsar said:
There should be a middle ground.
It did get tiring to play very competitively all the time, but I was enjoying being challenged. I don't recall losing a lot, but I thought the players were very good.
Now? I don't ever see good players and I haven't lost a game that I was trying in since October. It's boring and breeds stagnation.
To be honest, this is another issue that I wanted to raise in another post, but it seems that different regions have completely different playerbase.
Because i'm watching some streamers, and they have challenging match once in a blue moon, winning almost every match, because almost all survivors are not their level at all, not even close. So same situation as you have.
At the same time me and streamers from my region sweat pretty often. Sometimes i can have 5-6 games in a row against sweat lords SWFs or even very strong duo/solo, sometimes only once per day, but it's way more often than i see on other's people streams.
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@Starrseed said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3683129#Comment_3683129
I would say I'm fine if the ques go up to 5min with the 5min being a rare occasion.
Anything over 5min or even 5min for every que is to much for me personally
Yeah, i agree. Something around 5 minutes will be perfect, especially if i won't matched with 100-500 hours survivors against 3000-8000 hours killers in my soloq after this change.
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@DragonMasterDarren said:
It's not the playerbase's fault BHVR made a MMR system that doesn't function like a MMR system
The system we have right now prioritises queue speed over actually fair matches, we also cannot see what our MMR is, and the MMR brackets are so absurdly vast that Joe-Shmoe 300 hours can get paired with people like Knightlight if Joe-Shmoe 300 hours wins a couple dozen games
They made a slot machine into their matchmaking system, SBMM and MMR fundamentally might as well not exist because of how BHVR made this complete and utter mess
Well, whole point of my post is about it. Didn't community ask for it, because they don't like long queue and sweat every game?
Because in this game with not that big playerbase impossible always to find equal players and do it fast in the same time. And seems like many people don't understand it.
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@GeneralV said:
Nope, I don't think this has anything to do with us.
Truth be told, this system has never really worked. Solo Queue became even more susceptible to its shenanigans, for SWF groups it barely mattered and killers often got matched against survivors who were far above their skill level.
I remember many overwhelmingly negative feedback from the MMR testing sessions, and I still strongly believe the system needs to be scrapped entirely. It has caused way too many problems and it isn't worth salvaging.
I've seen back in the days a lot of killers who play nearly perfect, go from match to match against opponents of their level and lose many games in a row. And there is nothing surprising in this, game is very survivor sided in high level. I was very mid on both roles and was matched with the same/against level players, so i see nothing wrong with it initial state.
And after last softcap change i believe SBMM can be good. Question of my post is what should we sacrifice instead.
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@MrPenguin @WolfyWood @Akumakaji @Everyonehere back in the days i did a poll. So i will ask you the same thing: do you agree that we should sacrifice our search time slightly (not too much) in favor of more equal matches?
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@WolfyWood said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3683092#Comment_3683092
Killer role was literally, without any exaggeration, unplayable. I remember that I lost exactly more than half of the matches (or somewhere around 80%), and each of them was unbearable and very stressful.
You say matchmaking should work by giving killers what you also describe as unplayable matches. So I'm confused.
Calling me biased is just being dismissive, I've never advocated for killer being unfun to play.
Confused about what?
Game was in most stressful state for killers, because every match was unreal sweaty? Yes
Should it be like that? Yes. Same for survivors, every match should be equal and therefore challenging for both sides.
Will it cause some changes after? Yes, no doubt. Survivors will win waay often than now.
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@MrPenguin said:
While I see where you're coming form and even agree on most of it, I think the problem is they swung too far in the other direction.
They went form hour(s) long ques to get a pretty much exact match all the way to minuet at most que with a massive pool of skill. This is exacerbated by the softcap being dummy easy to hit for anyone with anything resembling a clue of how to actually play.
I don't think that's what people wanted (just my observation, could be wrong). Something in-between is probably the best we can get.
The softcap also needs to be raised (again) to actually have better divisions of the players and not just "average Andy who doesn't keep up with the game and doesn't know how Sadako works" being one side of the fence and the other being literally everyone else from "I at least know how the killer works" all the way to "I play the game for a living".
Additionally the fact that once you pass the softcap 1 time it will make you lose 3 wars worth of matches just to drop back down is silly imo. Someone can have a lucky streak and then be stuck facing players out their depth for basically the rest of their DBD career as long as they get carried sometimes. Just let them drop.
The softcap also needs to be raised (again) to actually have better divisions of the players
I agree. Other than that "earning" MMR should work other way, i'm doing another post with suggestion about it.
@WolfyWood said:
I don't get the sentiment that killers are entitled to not have challenging matches.
And furthermore, its okay for killers to constantly slaughter players worse than them?
BHVR agrees with you so, but I'm just trying to understand the rationale.
I don't get the sentiment that killers are entitled to not have challenging matches.
I have no idea where you read it in my post. Especially, when i said literally the opposite:
But this goes against the fact that this is exactly how good matchmaking should work in realities of this game.
Why don't you try to put aside your biases, reread the post and come back later, if you want a real discussion and not another us vs them boring swamp?
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Bubba :(
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So buff it to stronger state, than they were before nerf? Lmao, ofc
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Everytime i have bad times as killer, I remember that even the best of the best players I watch lose (or at least sweat like the last time) as soon as they go into a match against at least somehow good survivors.
I'm watching one pretty popular streamer who wins 99.5% of his matches, but idk why he plays 90% of the matches against terribly weak survivors. And when he comes against a good team, the only things that help him are hardcore tunneling and full meta.
But more than 80% of loses, wow... It seems that I only had this once when MMR was just introduced and worked as it should. I can only wish you patience. We're all in this boat and we understand you perfectly.
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@Huge_Bush said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3681464#Comment_3681464
That’s fine. We can agree to disagree.
But i can say two years ago i also was on a side with making Iri Stone basekit. Later i changed my mind, because less time to make your power less cost to have at least some ability again is good, but not when its complete cancellation is so free.
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@Huge_Bush said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3679912#Comment_3679912
Making Bloody Coil base-kit would make him upper B tier. While I like the idea, I’d prefer the other iridescent as base-kit.
Can't agree with this, not even close. Maybe C tier at best. In SWF you can ignore this addon completely and allow one survivor to deal with all traps. In solo it will be just games against less annoying Legion. Trapper with both Iri maybe B tier, but not with Bloody Coil only.
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@Nos37 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3681343#Comment_3681343
Killers can cherry pick lobbies... But, oh... Survivors can't cherry pick matches.
Killers cherry picking lobbies makes the survivors wait longer and the backfill mechanic means they are likely to get an unfair match (too easy if the killer is a baby or too hard if the killer is very skilled).
Survivors cherry picking matches by "going next" gives the killer easier wins.
Both need to go, so don't ask for punishable suicides until killers are prevented from backing out of lobbies.
I don't care about lobby shopping as survivor, because it cost me another 10-30 seconds in lobby in which i will do bloodweb.
I do care about hook suicide as survivor, because it's guaranteed unenjoyable and miserable match for at least 3 other people for another 7-12 minutes. I hate it as killer as well, because i can't care less about free wins. It's also waste of my time, because i want equal and enjoyable match, not just win no matter what. Literally no excuses for this still in the game.
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If it will work only with 2 survivors left or with 4 survivors on the ground, i agree. Otherwise, we don't need another way to left a match without penalty, because baby Kate don't like going against Legion.
I slug people who give up at the start of the match with no reasons, so they at least won't ruin someone else's match in the next 4 minutes. I urge others to do the same until the BHVR makes suicide on hook punishable.
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So many people here seem to forget that even one save is most often the difference between win and lose. Especially in today's meta, when all killer's perks work from a hooking.
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Probably just slightly better than before, bottom B for me. Ambush and crouching speed easily could be buffed further.
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@KittenBee said:
Honestly this whole event on both sides is lackluster and underwhelming.
They didn't do a Chinese new year because they hyped up the blood moon event but it's like ???? The stuff you buy in the event rift are pretty underwhelming and the new outfits in shop are kinda underwhelming too.
Honestly they really dropped the ball on this event.
It's pointless for killers and survivors.
Yeah, played as killer after, and just ignored whole event as well. Few times extended lunge helped me, but these blood zones were created by survivors, lol.
I also was hyped about it, thought if they have more time for creating new event, it will be really cool. But turned out it's most the lamest event in years.
Also can't agree about new outfits, they are the only amazing thing about this event. Especially Doctor's one.
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I mean, my mind saying 8 hooks and more is a win, but my heart can't agree about this, when i see all survivors on a gates even with 8 hooks. Especially when they bm you and you 5 minutes ago was like "oh i will let this guy live, i don't want to sweat".
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Most obvious 5 for me:
- Knight. Map of the Realm and Dried Horsemeat. I saw many players mentioned Call to Arms instead of Horsemeat, and this is where i can't agree at all. Without Horsemeat guards do nearly to nothing and it's impossible to land a hit with Guard without Horsemeat. CtA just a nice addon to have, it's not something you can't use your power without. MotR for obvious reasons.
- Singularity. Family Photo. At least partially. 2% for 1 Slipstreamed survivor, 3% for 2, 4% for 3 and 5% for 4 survivors. Singularity with and without this addons are two different killers, simply as that.
- Legion. Mischief List. I rarely go into matches without this addon, because without it chain 4 hits in Frenzy literally impossible (without tablets ofc) against semi-good survivor. While i understand that chain 4 hits in Frenzy shouldn't be something crazy consistent, i believe +2 seconds is what he needs badly.
- Trapper. Bloody Coil. I just don't understand how the weakest ability in the game almost does not require any time to completely cancel it, and does not even punish it in any way. Should be basekit just to make Trapper D tier from F tier, and i will stand on that hill forever.
- Huntress. Shiny Pin. It's sad that good change was reverted because of enormous amount of crying, because high B tier killer can't be A tier killer somehow, but they can at least stand somewhere in between and give her Shiny Pin basekit.
I agree with Dredge, it seems like he needs half of his addons basekit just to be good tbf.
Bubba really depends on his speed or chili or both.
Pig could have Last Will basekit, her current Ambush is only somehow okish with this addon (without downside). Additional movespeed while crouching too maybe.
I would like to see whole Warden's Keys basekit for Deathslinger. But even more than this i want Prison Chain basekit for how useful it can be.
100% Impaling Wire for Cenobite. He is awful without this addon.
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It makes difference on some killers. It's great on Wesker and Clown, but i wish they buff it a little too, so it will be universal good perk on 70-80% of killer roaster.
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His addons are okay? Literally whole twitch playing with the same 3-4 addons, because there is literally nothing else, half of addons are hot garbage.
Other than this, i agree, he high B tier at his best against good survivors. And i don't like him at all.
@fussy said:
Don't see myself playing this killer at all. He is mid in everything, extremely predictable and UVX is easy to dodge in most places. His addons probably even worse than PH has, there are like 4-5 not awful/useless addons. His skill ceiling is very low and his gameplay is insanely boring and clunky. You give direct hit with UVX to survivor and it just bounce off him and don't give weakened, like whaaaat???? I don't even wanna play for adept, tbh, he is just zzzzzzz.
This killer asks to help him whole match, and he really needs it.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3677704#Comment_3677704
Dude it's only while healing. Why would we complain about this when Distortion exists?
I just said why. I pretty often find survivors healing with BBQ. It's not rare at all when I see only 1 aura of survivor who is healing "nothing", because second survivor has Distortion or OTR. And this perk will hide both auras.
Once again, I'm not against this buff, I really love the idea and heard it many times, just don't expect killers will bring something except gen perks, since denying info will be that powerful.
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@Rogue11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3677704#Comment_3677704
Who is still running BBQ when ultimate weapon exists?
Me. I don't like UW tbh. You always need to find lockers before and on some maps it's a big problem. It works mostly on high mobility killers, and on m1 killers you usually just have enough time to hide after screaming as survivor.
I'm not saying it's bad, just doesn't fit in my playstyle. I bring it on Oni and Blight sometimes, but rarely on someone else.
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I have a lot of fun with him, but I can't play for a long with him. 1-2 matches and I want to move on to my favorite killers. Probably because he is 4,4 and I don't love 4,4 killers too much. On top of that big af cooldown. Yeah, he is fun in power, but being slow 4,4 killer for the most part of the match just is not my cup of tea.
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Well, I think it will be good change, but don't ask killers not to bring 4 slowdown perks after this. My BBQ already barely useful with endless distortion, hiding 2 survivors with 1 perk will kill it completely.
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@WhoSoup said:
From a gameplay perspective, this map is decided entirely by RNG. Sometimes it's incredibly killer favored, sometimes it's incredibly survivor favored. It's weird how sometimes you'll have really strong buildings with a strong pallet or god window, and sometimes it's an empty stable. I never know what I'm going to get when I load into this map. Generally, most of the buildings are fun to play. Don't really have any complaints, other than RNG being so inconsistent.
From an aesthetics point of view, this map is awful. Too red. There are structures with burns that look exactly like scratchmarks, which is extremely annoying. Stuff like that shouldn't be part of map design.
Once again, I agree with WhoSoup. Map overall is balanced, but rng can lean it in favour for both sides.
And how it's still red, when it always was #1 complain about this map?
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@_Onyx_ said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3676180#Comment_3676180
Yeah lol him being 4.6m/s will do the sole thing of helping him catch up to Survivors who w-key on maps that he physically cannot do anything but follow until he gets an angle. On maps where the angles are always there, it won't do anything to him because he has access to his power to get hits already.
4.4m/s with a 32 meter terror radius completely destroys his chances of applying any sort of solid pressure when detaching against good Survivors.
Completely agree. He also has worst map pressure in the game. It won't change much in most chases, but will make him slightly better in other aspects. No one thought that Trickster would ever be 4,6, but he ended up being just slightly better.
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MCR will find a lot of love i think.
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@VomitMommy said:
Decrease TR back to 24m
I would love that but doubt it.
Massively increased gun range
There is not really a need for that. At max ranged you often have issue to reel them towards you already.
Iridescent Coin could've just been a base kit feature
Hell no...
He also has a ton of bad addons as well.
true
Why not just make him 115%? That would fix his TR issue too.
Some addon changes would be nice too, but that's about it.
@_Onyx_ said:
The three things I would do to Deathslinger is:
- Increase Terror Radius to 40 meters.
- Survivors no longer hear the audio whir when the Redeemer is being aimed at them.
- Increase movement speed to 4.6m/s.
Glad i'm not the only one who thinks that Deathslinger should be 4,6. Some members here pretend he will be S+++++ killer with this change and i'm done with proving he won't. Just be ready, guys :D
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West side definately way stronger for survivors than East side. And i mean WAY STRONGER.
Overall about both RPD: don't like it on both sides. There is very little actual looping, only predrops of god pallets or constant shift+w, what is boring. But it's way better after rework anyway.
Also many killers can't use their powers here at full potential. Have no idea how to make it better tbf, but there are many worse map for both sides i guess.
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Very unpopular opinion, but i like this map more as survivor. This map no doubt is heaven for killers with high mobility, but m1 killers really struggle here, especially against good survivors.
My problems with this map as survivor:
- Sometimes impossible to find gens or totems. I wasted almost 4 minutes for searching Hex here last time (after 1st minute it was already a personal challenge), even with the fact i know all totems rng on this map. You can easily spend 2 minutes on attempts to find last gen.
- Navigation is hard here. I can't tell where am i even while i playing in SWF. I just... in another room.
- Camping on this map feeling too strong to go against, so many hooks are just impossible to rescue against some killers.
- All pallets either too strong or too week, it's boring.
- Some killers are just undodgeable on corridors.
- I wish there were more vaults on this map and some completely unsafe pallets were stronger. I'm okay with amount of them.
- Midwich Nurse with 4 Auras is the most braindead gameplay in this game. (Second place is swf with 3-4 Adrens)
My problem with map as killer:
- One of the best prerun map against killers without mobility. You saw survivor on another side of the corridor? Well, waste 30-40 seconds just to start chase.
- Gens impossible to control on killers without high mobility. Oh, there is a gen right above you survivors working on? Waste 20-30 seconds to reach it and watch they pop it in your face. Even on killers with mobility it's really hard to defence last gens here sometimes.
- Boons are very strong on this map, some of my survivors matches on this map were won only because 1 CoH.
- All pallets either too strong or too week, it's boring. (But depends on killer as well)
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I used to think it is balanced after rework, but now i think it's still one of the strongest survivor's map. Amount of offerings in my games from survivors additionally proves it.
But i don't have much problems with it except amount of connected and strong pallets. Last much i had Pallet Gym in two meters near very strong filler pallet and another "corner" pallets. It's 3 pallets in 5-7 meters area without any mindgame potential at all. How is it possible?
I also don't know why so many people hate main building, it's fine imo, except boil over abuse. Second floor is annoying, but this main is far from being the worst.
Reduce amount of pallets and it will be fine map.
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Don't see myself playing this killer at all. He is mid in everything, extremely predictable and UVX is easy to dodge in most places. His addons probably even worse than PH has, there are like 4-5 not awful/useless addons. His skill ceiling is very low and his gameplay is insanely boring and clunky. You give direct hit with UVX to survivor and it just bounce off him and don't give weakened, like whaaaat???? I don't even wanna play for adept, tbh, he is just zzzzzzz.
This killer asks to help him whole match, and he really needs it.
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He is mid in everything, except boringness. He is king in this. Most dull killer for me right now.
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@Nebula said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3674522#Comment_3674522
Less tight gen spreads and a little more consistency with filler spawns. There's some variations of this map that are just huge deadzones in the corners depending on the RNG you get. Adding fillers to the edges of the map like Autohaven would not provide much safety, but would at least increase the size of the map as the current version is smaller than it already is due to the corners being dead.
Very small maps like this should not have too much filler variation as if you don't get them to spawn you're just stuck running the fixed structures which already aren't the best outside the main building.
And that's why I write under each maps posts that there should be some stability in the number of pallets. It's stupid that, depending on RNG, same map can strongly lean towards one side, and the other time to other, like Coal Tower. So i agree with consistency with fillers.
In my comment below i said that 3 gen behind gallow should be wider, i agree, but others i have no problem with. And i don't think it's possible to spread them even more.
Fillers on the edges? Maybe somewhere here, but other edges already have a pallets. Don't think it will make much different, but ok, i'm not against it.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3674482#Comment_3674482
They’re unsafe even if the killer doesn’t destroy them. This map has the 2nd highest kill rate avg in the game. It’s 2nd to midwich.
@Nebula said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3674482#Comment_3674482
Yes that is how gameplay in this game works lol, the tiles you talk about can be strong when chained but unsafe once one or two of the pallets are thrown / walls are broken depending on your RNG.
To piggyback off what Ayo said, it has the second highest kill-rate in the game, if that’s a balanced or survivor sided map then my question stands for what maps are killer sided. The goal posts have clearly been shifted if this is the case.
Apply the slightest fraction of macro gameplay on this map and you win.
According to Nigtlight, it's only on 15th place, last official stats were long time ago, if i remember it correctly. And i don't think stats show that much, when we are talking about maps. Like most balanced maps like Storehouse or Ironworks have the same escape rate as Saloon. But obviously killer sided Rancid even higher escape rate. And Tompson house somehow has a one of the highest escape rate in the game. That's why i don't take "oh but stats" аrgument too serious, when we discuss maps.
Okay, let's pretend it's killer sided. What changes should it get?
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@Nebula said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3674429#Comment_3674429
Okay, let’s say those two are worse. Two maps out of 40 are worse than Dead Dawg?
There are for sure chainable tiles on this map but they’re all on one side and a bunch of LOS blockers to let you catch them off guard, knock out a couple of the pallets and you genuinely have little to nothing to worry about.
You didn't ask which map is worse than Saloon, you asked which other map is killer sided, if not this.
knock out a couple of the pallets and you genuinely have little to nothing to worry about.
Yeah, this is how gameplay in this game works. If killer destroys resources, area will be unsafe. What's wrong with it?
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@Nebula said:
The poll votes are kind of shocking me, this is easily one of if not the most killer sided map in the entire game.
Yes, main buildings strong, but if you simply don’t chase there or break the walls you just win the vast majority of the time.
Smallest map in the game that’s made even smaller by its lack of safety on the edges, not to mention the easiest shack play in the game with the breakable wall.
Regression perks shine on this map, tight gen spawns, almost every killer shines on this map, etc.
If this maps not killer sided, what is?
Temple of Purgation and Rancid? Whole area before the main is very good for survivors, some of my best and longest chases as survivor were here, you can chain loops here long enough, there are many not too weak and not too strong pallets. It was killer sided, when there was nothing in the field behind gallow like two or three years ago, but now it's in a good spot. Only thing i agree with is a breakable door on shack, maybe they can get rid of this.