fulltonon
fulltonon
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If you break all the god palettes, you are guaranteed to lose.
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@Oscarnator said:
If only anti-loop killers exited and made up more than half the roster. Oh, wait...
What other half of killers do, then?
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@Akumakaji said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2800670#Comment_2800670
Statistically, one survivor will die because their lies is in the blocked off box and they are sorta a dead man walking, because they will be on death timer once the first gen is done. If your key is in the garded box there is nothing you can do to avert this doom, but to wait out your timer or walk through the opened exit gates.
This is the "fun" part of the AFK Pig, ie getting literal kills while doing nothing and being AFK. If RNG is in your favor, you could also get more then one kill, if you roll extremely well, there might even be a 4K in it. And that's what is sitting wrong with me: bodyblocking one person is bannable, even if the other players could easily proceed the game towards the EGC, while the tactic that will on average kill 1 person automatically, and has a non-zero chance of causing and unavertable 4K, is not such an offense.
I know that this might be a bit of splitting hairs, but BHVR has always been about splitting hairs with their rulings about holding the game hostage, ie if you can proceed the game, no matter how slow and painful, no hostage situation is at hand. That's why this AFK Pig ruling surprised me.
In this case, it's not bannable because that one person can progress game to EGC.
escape or death, game is a game.
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every survivors have at least some percentage of chances to escape, hatch exists.
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@ElizaSteph said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2800657#Comment_2800657
I say hostage because the killer will refuse to chase and just stay by the gens, and survs won’t go and do said gens. I’m not saying killers shouldn’t do that, it makes sense, but as a response survivors won’t just walk up to the gens if they’re being camped. I posted bc today I was in solo and had a huntress stand near of all three gens with a hatchet out, and there were only three people left. We couldn’t communicate well to split up efficiently and it was difficult to get the gens passed a third. Two gens were behind her and one was right in front. We couldn’t flank because they were in open dead zones and it was easy for her to see everyone. No pallets on windows were near by.
Your points require both a specific perk, and the others require the killer leaving the area for a chase, even for just a few moments. My post is about when they literally do not leave. Yes survivors should split up and go on different gens but if you can’t heal very fast (no boon no medlar) you have to keep letting go to leave or you get downed by the gens. It’s not impossible, I’m not saying it is, it just takes a very long time and is a lot faster in a swf. No one wants to be in a dbd match tapping gens or camping them for an extra 15+ minutes.
Since survivor's job is to do gens and killers is defending gens, it's survivors who are taking the game hostage... by refusing to do gens.
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If you don't like 3 genning, just get killed by killers.
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@Adaez said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2799369#Comment_2799369
Messing up what?There is literally no time to do all gens before 1 survivor dies.
Because they didn't even managed to chase for 80 seconds.
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@TheSubstitute said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2799020#Comment_2799020
If the survivors play smart that's a 3E at least. If the survivors don't play smart it's a one way ticket to match making hell with the MMR system and a painful climb out. It wasn't such a problem before with emblems in my opinion since the Killer wouldn't rank up very much doing this. With MMR, it puts the killer at a much higher MMR than a level at which they can enjoy the game.
Even if survivors play smart, killers can secure 2 kills pretty much no matter what, and up to 3k if they make even one mistake.
And MMR DOES NOT exists, killer matches won't change if they win or lose because there is no such things.
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@TheSubstitute said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2798972#Comment_2798972
Knowing when to camp is the bigger part of that skill set and newer players just facecamp. Thus, they don't develop that skill. And, yes, match making is miserable and will remain that way until killers receive enough changed that 20% of the community will queue as killer.
It really isn't, it's pretty much first hook and perks.
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Wraith: window and palette vault, and while you are spamming it he can't break/vault it.
Bubba: windows and object hugging, you can try to let him tantrum throw.
Huntress: cut LoS and get farther by holding shift+w
Nurse: there is plenty of things you can do, if anything playing her yourself is easiest way to learn it.
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@TheSubstitute said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2798957#Comment_2798957
I would say it's more fun when it's skillful and it's also more fun when it's played in the manner that gives more BP. I like outplaying cocky survivors but I wouldn't have the skills to do it if I just used NOED and camped from the start of the game. I can't remember which guide it was but I read that you should try to develop those skills first and my games are for, the most part, enjoyable.
Not the case in DbD I think, camping is a "skill", and since camping is most effective strategy in this game, most skillful way to play this game is going that way deeper and deeper.
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Oh and since SBMM doesn't exists and new players gonna match with SWF swat squad anyway, your concern is not a issue.
It's just like BT or DS... it allows bad killers to actually play the game in miserable matchmaking.
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Because it's a hex perk, period.
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@Firellius said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2798055#Comment_2798055
Actually, I believe BHVR have gone on record to say that camping, slugging and tunnelling are valid strategies. The only thing they've stated is that they want to remove -face-camping, not regular camping.
But in disregard of the devs' stance, it is the current state of the game that camping is a very powerful tactic. As are tunnelling and slugging. You can complain about having to use those tactics to win, and I'd be sympathetic. But you're also in the minority on these forums as evidenced by how many times complaints about camping, tunnelling and slugging get brought up by survivors and subsequently discredited.
I'd be all for a big balancing overhaul where those three tactics are kneecapped and survivors are toned down to compensate. But that requires a strong enough consensus from the community to convince the devs to do that for the sake of game health. And as it stands, people just want to nerf the opposite side without losing what they have themselves.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2798059#Comment_2798059
Out of a string of 75 matches, he lost one. That's pretty good consistency in my book. Even by the metric you post, a 66% win rate is pretty damn high and it shows that a competent killer can easily win much more than lose.
Matchmaking being wonk is a fair counterargument, but that also throws a spanner into the idea of the game being survivor-sided, since we clearly don't have a way to actually assess what the average game is -supposed- to look like due to matchmaking errors.
There is no other tactics beside facecamping which can secure a kill no matter what, removing it gonna disable strongest part of camping.
And I don't like camping because it hurts BP much, at least make it BP efficient.
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No worries, just take video tape and camp the box!
Oh but don't afk there, people gonna report you and ban you! scary!
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Clown addon nerf is well deserved because that one hit addon were ridiculous.
Oh having ridiculous addon is good for game, though.
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@Bardon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2784714#Comment_2784714
Correction: The Killer's objective is kills, not necessarily hooks. Bleeding out, Mori's or the Entity taking them at EGC are all valid methods of securing kills.
Bleeding out is much less rewarding kills, entity doesn't like it.
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@ClarityOfWill said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2798020#Comment_2798020
Because Otz, unlike a number of people on this forum (including some of those you're arguing with), actually invested time in getting better at killer and generally have a solid understanding of macro level gameplay. Sure, killers have issues with map sizes and the boon meta isn't helping, but the problems are widely overblown on here. When you analyse some of the gameplay footage it's always the same story - massive over commitment, no attempt to secure a 3/4 gen on the map, not knowing when to break chase, never attempting to bait out DH. No real understanding of when to slug, tunnel, camp etc.
Otz and any other capable killer could go on a 1000+ win streak and there would always be people making every excuse under the sun as to why it doesn't count. If the majority of survivors are bad and someone is such a god tier killer, then you'd think they'd actually be capable of getting to "high mmr" in the first instance. They also like to conveniently overlook the fact that Otz's loses often come from him running unconventional builds, not taking the strongest addons and by his own admission not playing anywhere near as scummy as he could.
If people want to balance for the absolute top survivors (fine), then they don't get to whine when the game also has to be balanced for the top killers. That's not to say the game isn't survivor sided at the absolute top levels (outside of nurse and blight), but the problem is greatly exaggerated by players who will never play at that level in the first place.
The thing is, there is no such things as "high MMR", game chosen que speed over balanced games, so there is pretty much no situation where killers match with balanced survivors.
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@Firellius said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2798038#Comment_2798038
Even though you can secure kills by cheesy camp tactic or using actually decent killers, that's not emblem efficient nor BP efficient, which is meant to be a guide to "how you play this game".
Really? Because whenever someone complains about facecamping, there's about a dozen people on this forum who'll come out of the woodwork to say it's a viable, valid tactic that is entirely intentional by BHVR and should never be addressed.
Can't have your cake and eat it too.
It's viable and valid tactic, but at the same time BHVR added a punishment (which doesn't really change anything because you can "counter" it) and bunch of counter perks (which doesn't work against facecamp king, the cannibal), they are still trying to stop it too, they just don't know how to actually stop it without breaking game.
You know, "game is not survivor sided because you can facecamp a survivor to death" is pretty weird, especially when BHVR is more or less trying to fight that very tactic.
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@Firellius said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2797999#Comment_2797999
He also ran perkless with a 30 second delay. And even then, those are matches the average killer can get as well.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2798011#Comment_2798011
So then why does Otz consistently win his matches, when according to the forums, the average killer barely struggles to average 1 to 2 hooks? Unless the forums are, for some reason, consistently matched against higher survivors than a killer player who is apparently too good to be compared to, but I think that would be indicative of a very different problem.
You know, I DO consistently win my matches, too.
winning match against randos is pretty much nothing... I can count their mistakes every time, and I know I had no chance when they didn't make one.
even if killers plays "perfectly", there is no chance to win when survivors plays same.
Even though you can secure kills by cheesy camp tactic, that's not emblem efficient nor BP efficient, which is meant to be a guide to "how you play this game".
There is some actually decent killers who can do good against those people though.
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@Firellius said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2797949#Comment_2797949
Still trying to pretend any current match has 5 dull totems?
It still takes 14 seconds for every one of those 5 totems. Boons definitely make things much better on NOED, since they repay some of the investment in the counter so you don't run the risk of cleansing 5 for zero gain, but they're perks of their own accord and that needs to be taken into account as well.
As far as time searching, you're going to count that for totems but not gens? Really? Both have a limited number of physical places they can spawn, and are usually pretty close to each other.
I do hope you're not going to try and argue that it's just as hard to find gens as it is to find totems. And you bring up the limited number of physical places: Gens have two extra.
Killers have 4 perks, all of which can be seen by the survivors
No. Unless the killer has hard identifiers on all four of their perks and you, personally, happen to observe ALL of those identifiers, you don't know whether or not they have NOED.
and saw the killer head straight for a teammate after getting a hook (bbq)
Even that is nothing more than an educated guess because the killer could just be using their gamesense to make their own educated guesses. BBQ & Chili can only be recognised by Distortion and Object of Obsession, nothing else hard confirms BBQ & Chili.
There's plenty of perks that aren't identifiable, and even if they are, you still need to see that yourself or be in a swiffer and have a teammate confirm that perk to you. The killer might've blocked five windows with Bamboozle over the course of the match, but if you never witnessed them do it, you still have no way to know he doesn't have NOED.
Thats why it can be completely removed. If you think the killer has it, you have the option (in addition to dispelling as you would any hex) to remove it before the game starts.
But doing so requires a time investment that is equivalent to other slowdown perks, and it's a massive gamble because if the killer does -not- have NOED, you just wasted a ton of time. And the slightest imperfection will see your effort go unrewarded, too.
As no matter what, you have to play around it to keep it from activating
Yes, but this counterplay consists of -not pressing a button-, as opposed to spending 70 seconds minimum to root it out.
As far as deliverance goes, the only way any killer is stopping that is through blind luck in hooking the survivor with it first, even though they have literally no way to tell who that is.
But that does allow the perk to literally never fire, contrary to what you said about NOED being the only perk to do that.
Red Herring? Unable to be stopped. Sure, it may not work, but then, noed may pop and the killer unable to find a single survivor until the single totem it's on is snuffed.
Even then, NOED gives a speed boost, so it always gives at least -some- value. And when there's only three gens left, the chances of not finding a survivor are pretty slim, since there's very few objective locations left for the survivors. It's one of three gens, then one of two gates.
It is technically possible for the totem to go down the moment it goes live (Had that happen once), but that goes back down to being RNG based, much like Deliverance.
Flashbang? Literally as good as your aim
And the killer's ability to look away for a second.
For some reason it seems you are really stuck on DS, which I have not seen a serious argument against as a perk since it was last reworked.
The post you responded to was in response to someone making a legitimate complaint about DS. And it's not the only one. It is still being named in the same breath as DH, with the same connotation of a 'second chance perk'. The principle of that is the crux of my argument: Killer autonomy is disregarded.
Anyone trying to use a professional streamer playing against randoms to prove anything is just wrong.
That can certainly be argued. However, the ongoing insistence that the game is some degree of survivor-sided falls on even shakier support, but has long gone uncontested. Otz is actually one of the few people to argue against it, the video that caused this thread is just the fuse to the powderkeg.
The fact that the notion that the game is survivor-sided has survived for as long as it did without any discernible, concrete evidence to support it, strongly suggests a bias in the community.
That is all.
Wanna see objective evidence?
que time, in most region there is no time of the day killer is faster, it shows how most people can't have fun in killer games.
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@Vyne456 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2797967#Comment_2797967
I guess your right but what about Huntress's ultra rare add-on?
Her ultra rare addon only works when she has no guns.
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@Firellius said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2797973#Comment_2797973
Oh, so we're back on the 'survivors just bad lol' train.
Killers are never bad, they're just UP tho.
No, it's just that both shift+w and safe palette (which consists 80% of chasing) is uncounterable for normal M1 killers beside using time by breaking palettes/holding W, and those things will make enough time to finish generators.
So, yes, killers are never bad, because anything they do doesn't affect outcome... aka chase time.
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Tourney just shows how this game is balanced around camping and tunneling, most notably camping.
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@Firellius said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2797922#Comment_2797922
So because he lost one match, the other 74 matches are discredited?
Yes? especially when they are noticeably bad survivors.
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Blight is definitely a best killer at farming BP.
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@KateDunson said:
#removemmr
It's already done, you have faster que times at the cost of balanced game.
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@Firellius said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2797916#Comment_2797916
What does that matter? High skill is high skill.
It does matter because he loses against good survivors.
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@Firellius said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2797895#Comment_2797895
Because when Otz shows he can consistently win without perks, and spending the first 30 seconds AFK, -that- gets disregarded under the argument of 'He breathes DBD, he's too high skill to be used as an example'.
It's not about otz though, it's about survivors.
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@RakimSockem said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2797901#Comment_2797901
For most killers at their skill level should be the correction here. You slap lethal pursuer on any killer to get early game data and maybe you can't get there as fast as a Blight, Billy, Nurse, Spiriit, etc but you know where to go so you don't waste time.
From there, it's all skill based. Also currently all the math (whether yall like the stats or not) show that in the current state of the game, killers are doing just fine and in some cases more than fine
It's not, utilizing shift+w/dead hard and using safe loops is already enough to finish 5 generators and escape.
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@RakimSockem said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2797870#Comment_2797870
So pretty much you're going off personal experience instead of data you don't like?
Because I've yet to see a solid argument for why the game is supposedly survivor sided.
I've seen plenty of good arguments for why it's at best neutral, and at worst killer sided.
But every argument for why the game is survivor sided pretty much boils down to "I can't handle the gen speeds or catch survivors quick enough to apply pressure" and that's a skill issue more than a game issue
It's just a math thing, pressuring maps/catching survivors quickly is literally not possible in this game for most killers.
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@Firellius said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2797870#Comment_2797870
Also well and good, but then how do you support the claim the game is survivor-sided? Data can't be used, and you can't refer to high skill players, so then what?
Why can't refer to high skill players?
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Elo hell doesn't exists because getting higher elo is bad for you.
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No, weeee neeeeeeeed survivor neeeeerfs.
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if anything I NEED more body blockers because I want to take agitation/mad grit.
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@Firellius said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2797330#Comment_2797330
That's all well and good, but when taking the averages, the game still doesn't show itself as survivor-sided. Kill rates are all still above 50%. Definitely lower than what they used to be, like the 68% kill rate in red ranks before SBMM, but there's nothing to show the game is survivor sided.
Because data is literally worthless when killers can secure one or two kills no matter what and majority of players are "bad".
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@Tsulan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2797364#Comment_2797364
Who called CoH an exploit? O_o
Probably the one which can heal a survivor before cooldown ends, and it actually got fixed so it was a exploit for sure though.
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If you use blight, it makes sense.
Do you think people changing cloth every day weird or strange? you definitely will not, right?
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SBMM doesn't exists for killers, may exists for survivors.
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It's either bug or you playing super badly.
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By shutting down their brain, play mindlessly till you win.
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@Sluzzy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2797340#Comment_2797340
On the flip side you can say you can do fine as survivor as long as you get a potato killer. You act like it is easy for survivors to escape but dismissing that a good killer won't let that happen as in Otz is a good example here. When he obliterates 99% of the survivors he faces, it proves that killers are stronger than survivors.
He's never had a lose streak that I'm aware.
It is easy because survivors can take unintended advantage by using voice comms, which has a worth of dozen perks.
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endgame as is is already just a waste of time most of times, at best you could trade bunch of hooks but that's it.
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I don't care, no one do bones nowadays and I don't know it changes that much.
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@Nathan13 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2796426#Comment_2796426
As if killers already didn’t camp and tunnel enough already.
80% chance goes up to 100%, more misery for everyone!
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@Rogue11 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2796721#Comment_2796721
I'm not sure counterplay of "literally just throw yourself at the killer and hope some of you can crawl out" is a good mechanic.
Imagine intentionally ignoring the fact you can cleanse NOED.
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@anarchy753 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2796073#Comment_2796073
That's why they added the endgame collapse, so survivors couldn't just remain in the game endlessly when they felt like either hiding from or bullying the killer. The killer opening the gate is only an option so that they have some way of starting it themselves if the survivors are choosing not to.
But what it does is just activating endgame collapse and not immediately let all survivors escape, if it was a surrender button, it should be usable mid game and end the game immediately.
I'm mostly sure it is meant to be killer's advantage to some degree.
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Anyone who played killer would know "high MMR" doesn't even exists right now anyway, thanks to excessive amount of survivors SBMM isn't even working.
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@konchok said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2795962#Comment_2795962
There was a tourney where nothing was off limits and it was an average of 2k.
That's strange, because with NWO/rancor and bubba, you can secure 3k almost always.
"average of 2k" means nothing when facecamp/tunneling exists, did you seen what kind of strat they were using?
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@Pepsidot said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2795735#Comment_2795735
AKA when the killer hooks a survivor at the NOED totem, there's nothing you can do.
Once spawned it absolutely can secure a kill (if you disregard 4% or Deliverance). I didn't think this was up for debate really.
You can just force a killer to choose between hook or totem even with it, and it won't happen for 99% of times anyway.