dspaceman20
dspaceman20
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Im not disagreeing with you but weren't people complaining about him when he first came out.
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Personally I'm completely fine with ruin and Undying as a survivor main. I'm in a swf group and I don't think we ever have any problems with it. It's fine for the most part. Us survivors have to adapt and do better.
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@Dennis_van_eijk said:
Yup in all other games the game punish people with bad connection.
Dbd on the other hand rewards bad connection.
I've been hit by killers when not even in range and even as killer I can hug survivors and not getting a hit trough.
My ping is around 30 and my router is put un dmz so no bad connection on my end
I Can agree I moved my xbox closer to my router and hits have been worse.
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@Crowman said:
The problem is that the effort to get Mettle of Man to go off usually requires throwing the game. It's not an easy perk to activate (and it shouldn't be easy).
I agree. Getting a endurance status effect shouldn't be easy and requires risk in order to use successfully. Its in my opinion perfectly balanced.
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@[Deleted User] said:
Yeah but every time you take a protection hit to build up the stacks to use it, that's another heal you have to go through as well; that's less time doing anything else.
It can be done, and it can be strong when it works out well, but the coordination and everything required makes it ONLY useable in a SWF; and even then it's often better to take so many other things.
That is still leaving alone all the after it procs effects too.
I have made a build around mettle of man that have worked in solo.
Mettle of man
Dead Hard
Self care (with medkit)
Breakout
The best strategy i have seen is to take a 2 protection hits as early as possible and save the third protection hit for when you really need it. Its more of an aggressive risk vs reward build.
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Couldn't the killer just stand in front of their totem to protect it making the game more drawn out?
I like the idea I think it should be a lower time like at max 60 seconds.
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Who stop whinging killers or survivors
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@OldHunterLight said:
I want OoO to disappear, that is about it, even if it costs something like noed (not that I use it) the other things are being fixed so I'm good.
Object i can agree does need to be changed as jts way to powerful. In fact all of Lori's perks need to be changed.
@JimbusCrimbus said:
Survivors. Or at least, the attitude of the average survivor.
"I'll use literally every second chance I have, even if it's 1000x more powerful than anything you have, but I'll continue to whine about it because only killer strategies and builds are bad/boring".
Also, this is pure gold, from another thread...
"If killers are winning because of a perk, it's OP." - Referring to Undying. Imagine saying that about a HEX PERK that can be deleted from a match within seconds...when the survivor meta has been nothing but "press button for instant second chance with no counter" for the last 4 years.
I can agree its the attitude of thr survivor that's the problem, or in other words the attitude of the person playing survivor. I don't think there is anything that can be done about it other then having the devs be really stricted on people who are toxic (like banning people who are being toxic) the problem with that thought is whats considered toxic is almost subjective so I don't know how well of an idea that it.
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@noctis129 said:
This depends on how often a survivor is expected to escape.
I escape over half my matches. I should only be escaping about 20% of the time.
There is a misconception that killers are toxic. Ive played killer consistently before but I am survivor main.
Survivors are the real toxic players hiding in sheep's clothing making accusations that killers are toxic.
It is also a myth that there are equal number of toxicity from both survivor and killer.
U take 100 killers and 100 survivors, it's the survivors that will be more toxic. It's just how the game is. I like to bully the killer myself and trash talk the killer to Oblivion. Why? Cuz it's fun.
Killers at least try to follow the rulebook made by survivors. Many killers refuse to camp, tunnel, mori, or even use NOED and such.
With survivors, there's no such thing. They have no rulebook and thus, have no Honor, but they got the biggest mouth. And the game caters to them.
Killers are the real victims. Survivors are the real bullies This is why ppl don't want to play killer.
I agree with some thing but disagree with others sure alot of survivors are toxic. However there are toxic killers.
@Crazewtboy said:
The matchmaking system. This is a big issue. White rank killers shouldn't get red rank survivors.
I can agree match making is terrible. I have experienced it as a survivor.
@Chromawa said:
maps are definitely one of the most annoying things, so many killers are map dependent. So for example getting lerys as nerfed to hell billy just feels like the developers pouring salt in my wounds.
what I would add to alleviate this is maybe some sort of map veto system for killers so you could veto like 1 or 2 sets of maps and make map offerings ultra rare or purple.
I Can agree maps for killers can be bad. I have a question for you though, is it possible a killer can gain too powerful of an advantage because of the map?
@RaSavage42 said:
Killers have to remember 4 different survivor cosmetics either different or the same
Up to 16 perks and use
Hook states for all 4
7 gens (cause all gens are viable)
Map (tile structures)
Survivor Items (brought in or found)
The killer's power and use... I main Pig sooooo
As for balance....
Finish map changes... Keys (I don't have an idea though)
Give all players hook stage indicators on the HUD (killer and Survivors)
Buff perks that aren't used much ( cause I don't want to list all perks and changes I'd make... list would be really long)
I can agree with you changes but I don't really understand the issue with killer perks. Sure some killer perks are absolutely abysmal and needs to be changed however most perks seems fine based on the fact that there are a multitude of different killer powers that match well or better with certain perks. If perks were made in a way in which every single killer could use them regardless of if it matches with the killers power or not then it makes killer even more dull and predictable. Its way its best to run iron madien with huntress or leather face and thanataphobia with legion and plague because those perk match best with their killer power.
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@Grandpa_Crack_Pipe said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1847733#Comment_1847733
M m m m m m m m m m m .
Nope, I tap out. You win DbD, dude.
I'm sorry for being mean and unreasonable
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@Grandpa_Crack_Pipe said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1847733#Comment_1847733
M m m m m m m m m m m .
Nope, I tap out. You win DbD, dude.
I'm sorry if I'm being rude that made you want to stop converting. I'm into discussions and I thought we were having one, you made a claim, I made a counter claim , you made a counter counter claim and so on and so forth. I just wasn't convinced by your claim.
Look I don't want to give off the impression that I'm a survivor main who want to bully the killer and make survivor easier and killer impossible to play. I want balance for both sides to make it fair and if a perk desperately needs to be changed to make killer more bearable then I will agree with that. Better killer experience is better for survivors as well. I want as much people to play the game and have fun and intense matches.
So won't you please come back uwuuuu?
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@Grandpa_Crack_Pipe said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1847641#Comment_1847641
Yes. I assume that when you use dead hard, you do it to dodge the attack. Whether or not it hits is where the skill component of the perk comes in. The killer CAN predict it just like a survivor CAN predict that and wait for the swing. It not always working having a counter that plays on the prediction and skill of both killer and survivor isn't a problem, it makes it fun and fair. It's a risk the survivor takes for a potentially great reward. This seems to be the part you're not getting.
And yes, in some situations it's harder to continue the loop than others. But with the sheer time a dead hard dodge buys you, unless there's literally no pallet or window and you're just looping around a couple trees you're gonna have a hard time finding me loops that you actually can't make it to the pallet/window of, even with bloodlust. Even if it's only another 10 seconds, it's STILL another 10 seconds. Which makes it worth it.
And.. no, you're not getting it. If they close enough to hit someone dead harding for distance, they just plain did it way too late. Like, right on top of them way too late. If someone does it properly, IE when they're far too far away to lunge at, you can't counter it. You couldn't lunge it before the dash, you sure can't after. If they didn't dead hard for the distance, you would have gotten them when they tried to vault the window. That's free uncounterable chase time because E.
Am I getting through yet?
Firstly your skill point you are trying to push seems literally impossible. Please tell me how exactly the survivors is supposed to predict the swing when the killer is literally on your back? Logically speaking the closer you are to the person the less time it takes for the swing to connect. Human reaction time is not fast enough in order for the survivor to predict when the killer is if they are close. Sure it's risk vs reward but thr risk is so impossible that it makes the reward not worth it or possible to achieve, making the perk useless. What your suggesting is like jumping an impossible bridge. The risk is that you could fall and die but the rewards is that if you make it you can get to where your going in time. While completely ignoring that the bridge is too wide to cross.
Secondly the situation your describing is dead hard for dodging which you said has a counter.
Thirdly if the person was not in lunge distance of the survivors would have made it to the pallet anyways with or without dead hard. The fact that they used dead hard id irrelevant. Your not getting the fact that there is already skill involved in using and countering dead hard for distance, that skil being that you have to accurately judge the distance of your lunge in order to get a successful hit regardless of if they dead harded for distance. That is skillful.
And stop saying "am j getting through yet" its rude.
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@Grandpa_Crack_Pipe said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1847597#Comment_1847597
You know what you do when you dead hard and dodge an attack?
You make distance.
Say this action lock lasts 3 or so seconds. You can't just make a quick dash right into a window/pallet right as they're about to get you and be safe because you pressed E and they can't do anything about it. But a missed attack's cooldown is 1.5 seconds, running survivor speed is 4 meters per second, and the dash already covers a good distance, which means a dodged attack is going to buy somewhere around 10 seconds as a base, assuming everyone's just walking in a straight line.
As you might be aware, 10 is more than 3.
You dead hard dodge in a loop? You continue the loop. You can easily run the action lock timer out in a loop with the distance you make dodging. Even better, you could make it to another loop. Risk, reward.
Dead hard to DODGE is countered by baiting it. Dead hard for DISTANCE is countered by nothing. You can't just lunge it.
Is this making sense yet?
There is a problem here. Your first part is with the assumption that the killer swing, the survivors use dead hard and the killer misses an attack. What you have described is using dead hard to dodge which you have already said is countered by baiting. Adding anymore counters would destroy this aspect of the perk making it useless. Furthermore you also have to take bloodlust into account since if the killer has gained bloodlust (which they can get quickly) they can destroy that 10 second time the survivor gained and down you quickly.
For your second part you say "continue the loop" however that is easier said then done since different maps have different loops length and different jungle gym length meaning that it you won't be able to continue the loop, making dead hard useless.
For your 3rd part you say dead harding for distance has no counter because you can't lunge it. However from my long time of playing it and observing it from other players( from both killers and survivors side) lunge can most definitely counter the distance. There has been many time in which I and other players have dead harded to a pallet or a window but still have been hit and downed because the killer was able to time his lunge perfectly in order to negate the "overpowering" dead hard for distance. You can lunge it if you time it correctly, which experience killers can.
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@JimbusCrimbus said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1847386#Comment_1847386
It only seems to be whataboutism if survivor perks are brought up. Other way around and it's "fair"
And it's not "whataboutism" - because those perks for survivor have existed for literal years and none of which have counters in many cases. Undying hasn't even existed for 4 months yet and has counters in literally every case.
Try running the perks to counter them instead of running your crutches.
"bUt WhAtAbOutIsM"
Quit parroting Scott.
It is whataboutism because your bringing up irrelevant things to discrete the suggestions made in the original post.
And you seem to be biased towards survivors. What about killers and their crutches, their overpowered addons their crutches perks?
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@Grandpa_Crack_Pipe said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1847576#Comment_1847576
How would it kill the perk? Having someone dodge your attack with dead hard can devastating. The servers make it hard to use like that but I see it work all the time, and it can be a gamechanger when it does. All removing Dead Hard for distance does is make sure you actually have to use your brain when you press E.
If removing the part of the perk with no counterplay is going to kill it, then it needs a serious overhaul anyway.
Making It so that you cannot throw down pallets or vault anything after using dead hard would make it useless. Imagine your at a loop and you dead hard but can't throw down the pallet, what time will that by you and your team? What impact would it have on the killer? You might as well have not used the perk at all since it would have done nothing.
Dead Hard is also already countered by lunging so it would be more useless in a chase if this change was made. There are other better alternatives other than that terrible suggestion.
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@JimbusCrimbus said:
Not good enough. Also give it an animation lock after use. So it can't just be used to artificially extend a chase with no skill required by dead harding for distance (which has no counter) to a vault or a pallet. Once they dead hard, they can't just throw a pallet or vault something. Problem solved.
@Grandpa_Crack_Pipe said:
Just make it so you can't vault/pallet for a few seconds after a dead hard and it's perfect.
Dead Hard to dodge can be baited and is rewarding to pull off.
Dead Hard for distance is brainless.
This change is bad and would kill the perk. It would have the same effect as dead harding in the open with no pallet or vault it wouldn't have any impact to the killer at all. You might as well as not have dead harded.
I think dead hard is fine as is and experienced players wouldn't have a problem with dead hard but if you really want to change it you should rework the exhaustion status effect all together or leave it and make dead hard a limited number of uses like on a token system.
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There is also a generator on the swap that shows 3 people can repair it but only allows 1.
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I like your suggestions for changes.
Some quality of life changes I would love to see is
1: better perk organization system like in DBD mobile
2: if your doing archive challenges a way to show your progress during the match instead of after it
3. A chat section for console to chat with PC
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@AggressiveFTW said:
How is that a rework? It's a buff and not a rework. I don't like the idea.
Its just a name. Sometimes I won't rework perks but buff them. And I had this idea in mind in order to include more ways to hid from detection which led to this. I'm not sure is getting back the tokens would be overpowered or not which is why I didn't suggested it.
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I switch from being a Clauddette and Adam main to being a Adam and Elodie main
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First what is macro? Second how do you know the hag is using the program?
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@Exerlin said:
8/10, very good specialized build that gives you great time efficiency, grants you a situational insta-heal, and guarantees an obsession. Only issue is that Visionary is a very lackluster perk. May I ask why you think that you need Visionary? I may have some suggestions for you if you can tell me what exactly you struggle with when searching for generators. Is it a backup for indoor maps? Is it because you don't know that every generator has a tall pole going straight up with a light that flashes? Is it just comfortable for you?
I use visionary because of the chance of getting indoor maps. I hate having to waste time looking for gens so it's best if i know where the gens are automatically.
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@Starr43 said:
Solo or SWF?
If solo maybe replace visionary and iron for something like Windows of Opportunity and bond. It can be quite useful for pallet save plays or pallets drops into a for the people heal to give a random a chance to realize what’s going on. Works well if the killer is on the other side of a window too obviously.
If you’re feeling spicy swap the same two out for adrenaline and soul guard. Potential for adrenaline to pop into a soul guard self save or into a full heal over to a for the people play.
I am mostly in a swf but i will use your suggestions and test some things out.
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@[Deleted User] said:
GF Trailer had a Cashier in a Dept store.
People thought that meant he was coming with a Survivor+Map
That wasn't the case.
TBH I'd love a stripmall/dept. store based map. So I was disappointed.
I don't think it would be good. It would be another indoor map and all the indoor maps are terrible for killer and survivor.
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@xEa said:
I agree. Its not only the dead zones, but also the aesthetic of it. Too dark and ... just not good looking. And all those random mini tiles to fill in... they just dont do it for me.
Overall they did a good job with McMillan, Springwood and Ormond, but Auto Haven - all 5 of them are just really bad.
I would disagree on the map being dark. I think its a good thing for the map to be dark as it promotes a playable that is different from the norm in red ranks. That playstyle being stealth. Before the new autohaven I don't think I have been able to hide from the killer long because of how bright the map was.
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@Crazewtboy said:
Might be a terrible person for this but if the killer is only going for me and you haven't been hooked yet, you best believe I'm doing whatever I can to give him a new target. You can be saved later, I can't
I agree with you. If I'm being chased by thr killer for a long time and you haven't been hooked yet then I'm sorry but you best believe I'm bringing thr killer to you. Everyone needs to play their part in order for the team to survive and that includes being hooked.
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@lagosta said:
@dspaceman20 Then he gave you the No-No bc you failed the dead hard :P. They possibly didn't take it as a sign of toxicity, just a way of saying "unlucky".
I guess that's why he did it. I do tend to to look back at me when I'm being chased i don't realize what's in front of me.
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@lagosta said:
@dspaceman20 Then you did something that he didn't like. When I play as killer that means hookbombing, wasting god-pallets, camping pallets, bm in general. Some killers will give you the No-No if you loop them for too long, especially in lower ranks.
I used dead hard. Although I did dead hard into a box. I try my best not to be mean or toxic in any way.
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@FellowKillerMain said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/216250/why-do-killers-shake-their-head-at-survivor
When he downed you, was it up and down, or left to right? I ask because, after downing a survivor the Legion raises his chin, and sometimes it 's buggy and looks like nodding. I thought for the longest time that Legion players were being toxic, but realized during KYF it always happens.
If not then, bad on the killer. They were likely being toxic.
@lagosta said:
Legion nods after downing someone. It's their animation, not bm.
The legion was shaking left and right. I know because the red stain was also moving left and right
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@AggressiveFTW said:
Helping Hand is too similar to Solidarity. I really like Wildlife Protector, really nice work on the perk overall!
If you like these perks you should see my other perk ideas.
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Can anyone explain what was wrong with old legion? (Genuine question) why was he charged
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@RepostRiposte said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1841109#Comment_1841109
Eh honestly you kinda deserve it, nobody likes an object in their game.
Nobody should be bullied or punished for using a perk. Your terrible if you think this.
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@Dabihwow said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1841053#Comment_1841053
Well if htey did that then you would just constantly see the same exact cosmetics, and the same exact killer. I'll give you an example. Lets say Clown, if one of his cosmetics gave him a buff to have a stronger hindered effect without addons, many Clowns would run it, but what if the cosmetic didn't fit the persons taste, but another cosmetic did however not giving a good of a buff then this other cosmetic. YOu see what I'm getting at, it kinda messes with the creativity for the killer, and the same would be with a survivor, unless your a P3 Clauddette because those guys can blend.
But in order to fix that I imagine that the buffs will be very minimal. Like for Clown a 1 or 2% increase in bottle reloading. If you put on a certain head or body. Some cosmetics could be buffs and others could be for fully cosmetic. This would probably be only for killer and not survivor.
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I always wondered this as well. I think each cosmetics should provide some small buff in some way to make it fun.
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@dezzmont said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1839505#Comment_1839505
Trapper is so territorial that him being very strong at basement is fine. Like the basement SHOULD be a Very Bad Place (TM) where if the killer is remotely prepared he can lock you down. He either is setting up near basement anyway (so a basement rescue is unlikely in the first place), or he is travelling to basement and leaving his nest during chases and should return to find his nest disarmed and his prospects destroyed.
Basement traps are basically akin to a free territorial imperative. So if you think trapper basement traps are OP, territorial imperative should be too.
Not to mention that it isn't like Dead Hard is the reason Trapper is kept 'in check.'
I don't think basement trapper is op. (I honestly don't know how I feel about it.) But I don't see a way to really escape a basement trapper.
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@MadLordJack said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1838495#Comment_1838495
Dark Souls is Vs AI that isn't sentient and doesn't care about unfairness or its efforts being snatched away. DbD is Vs real people that have to put in a crapload of effort only to get "outplayed" by a button push with zero counterplay and no real skill.
Dead Hard doesn't require skill or timing or any of that. Killer too close? Aim and pull trigger. Done. Loop achieved. It's more difficult to hit a DS skillcheck.
And I can barely believe I'm saying this, but Dark Souls and DbD aren't comparable. They have different mechanics and different balancing systems and, on top of that, your opponents aren't AI and deserve to have their efforts rewarded.
I Would disagree and say that dead hard does take skill. It takes skill to know when to dead hard to a pallet or vault at the right moment to be able to vault and throw down the pallet. I think people who say it takes no skill because you press a button is thinking about it too narrowly. This is my opinion so take it with a grain of salt and if you disagree thats fine as well.
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@Mister_xD said:
i still think it shouldnt work on Bear Traps.
those things are designed to catch running prey, so why can you just avoid them by running over them a little harder than usual? (yes, you still avoid damage, but it makes no sense from a logical point of view)
poor Trapper has enough problems, he really, really doesnt need that... :(
Wouldn't that make basement trapper to strong? Genuine question. The only way I see getting out of it is by using dead hard.
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@Raccoon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1838366#Comment_1838366
I'm almost positive that the majority of players would find their weapon simply passing through the survivor far more frustrating.
An easier solution would be to simply add a 1 second stagger forward (like almost losing one's balance) at the end of the dash that prevents vaults/pallet drops if that's what your intention is.
That would make dead hard terrible. It's the same as dead harding in the middle of nowhere with no pallets or vault it would be useless to dead hard. I might as well not even used it.
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@MythMage said:
Haven't watched the video yet (actually going to do that now), but yes. This is why Off The Record isn't that bad of a perk in SoloQ. People just don't know how to take aggro
As a survivor main I have to say that i agree with everything. People seem to forget that playing survivor is a team game and you have to do whats best for the whole team. If I'm being honest most of the time I take DS in solo is because of other survivors not just the killer.
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@Masterninja said:
I'm sorry but you need to understand, that you should be paying attention in the perks that we have now. Because just adding more perks difficults the balance of the other 60 bad and garbage perks we currently have. :(
Perks like Small hunt and Montrous shrine are been in the game 4 years, wihout any changes.
Some times I revisit older perks to see if I could change them to be better but I had had ideas recently of new perks.
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@YOURFRIEND said:
Ah, you've posted them before. I think most of them are reasonable with the survivor ones being a little overturned. The poster above me has basically the same feelings as me. On a lot of maps the only way you can find a slugged survivor is by the noises, really.
Ok so level Headed would be really overpowered i will change it.
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@Teacyn said:
Level-headed is an extremely powerful anti-slug perk, to the point where it could possibly replace Unbreakable. If the killer moved away from you for just long enough for you to crawl 10-15 feet away, they may not be able to find you at all and you can just recover for free on maps with darkness and grass. Combine with Tenacity for extra effect. Would also lead to degenerate interactions when there's only two people left if I had to guess, since slugging the second to last is extremely common in case the last is camping hatch. It's already pretty easy for the killer to lose them in that case. This also acts a a full-counter perk to Deerstalker, which is already an extremely weak perk.
Serve and Protect is also extremely powerful. While it might be a bit weak in solo queue, SWFs could use that to absolutely bully killers to death since they can relay information at all times, especially if stacked with OoO. I think the base idea could work but hiding other players effectively completely is far too much. Hiding their auras and blood trails only might be better, but I'm not 100% sure.
The rest of them are fine and neat.
I wasn't thinking about the effect it has on swf. I could get rid of the aura reading for other survivor for serve and protect. I wanted to create a perk in which a person could potentially sacrifice themselves for a big effect andfor others and others could get away. Or i could put how long the other survivor are undetectable for on a timer if that would make it less overwhelming.
For level headed I could take off the aura immunity and leave the grunts of pain and the 50 less blood or vice versa.
Thank you
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@Teacyn said:
Impediment works as an idea but it is definitely too strong with these numbers. Possibly make it only last 20/30/40 seconds? An alternative idea might be to make it a non-hex perk that has the same effect as Ruin, but only when there's only 1 gen remaining to do. Essentially, instead of the power of Ruin being available the whole match but being vulnerable, you get it 100% of the time at the end only.
Vengeance sounds fun, conditional mori perks are always fun, makes mori challenges less dumb too. Think this one might be a bit too strong though, getting stunned and blinded happens a lot, especially if survivors are using stuff like Head On.
Death Bells is a scary perk, I love it.
Dancer is just not a design that's going to work. It's way too strong like this and would massively lengthen chases, and if you nerf the numbers down too much it's going to be inferior to Spine Chill (and maybe Resilience) because those work on more things and SC gives additional benefits.
Rule Breaker and Follow Me are cool ideas, but Follow me might be super-niche. Could see SWFs using it, but probably not solo queue.
Ok then Hex Impediment could be down to a max of 50 or 60 seconds. The reason I gave it a long time was because the hex could be deactivated if found. But I understand why the time is too long now.
For Vengeance I could increase the amount of tokens needed to 10.
You said death Bells is fine so I won't change it.
Dancer could be shortend to 10% and add a cooldown.
Follow me could be changed but I don't know how I could change it
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@Rydog said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1835638#Comment_1835638
Yeah, because they would be forced to drop everything and do them. That's why Ruin got changed.
But devour hope forced the survivor to drop everything
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@Rydog said:
As-written, Dancer and Hex: Impediment would both be very OP meta perks.
I guess i could add a cooldown to Dancer and Hex: Impediment could be have a shorter timer.
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@dezzmont said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1834837#Comment_1834837
It is better but still not good.
This is just a super delicate needle to thread, because you absolutely positively don't want the killer to be unable to hook unless they run iron grasp or something. Big no-no. Can't stress enough we see where this leads, and its slugsville and hour long survivor Qs.
Again, this is THE most delicate point in the game to mess with a killer's ability to act. The 'transport to hook' phase is sorta where the killer should be the strongest and everything should have to be perfect for it not to work. This is why this phase has the least exploration perk wise too: A perk that increases wiggle speed is kinda obvious, but there is a reason it never was created.
Boil over wasn't a buff to wiggle speed, and wiggle speed indirectly got nerfed by the killer speedbuff for non-4.6's because the carry distance of killers just needs to be X distance minimum. Suffice to say we will NEVER see a perk that reduces killer carry distance generically.
No auras plus maybe an increased penalty on wiffed attacks plus a drop penalty may work. It just won't make the perk meta. Its just... fundamentally not realistic for a carry nerf perk to be meta without becoming toxic.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1834872#Comment_1834872
Again, we saw what happens when killers are too disempowered on the carry phase and need to run perks to support it: the game withers and dies.
You should not need perks to engage with the super basic mechanic of 'down survivors and carry them to hooks' which is ultimately what happened when SWF groups realized they could permanently block nurses without agitation from ever hooking.
Furthermore, NO survivor perk should EVER pressure the killer to be forced to take a perk, ever. EVER. Like EVER. Unless your talking about giving 16 perk slots to the killer, in which case I would say that is likely to lead to some problems. Killer perks can pressure survivor's usage of perk slots or nullify them, but not the inverse in general, because the game is asymmetric and the way killers and survivors value perks is different.
You may feel those perks are unhealthy, but absolutely gutting a core feature of killers in the form of the basic function of how they score is completely not a viable way to address those perks. It would be akin to killers having a perk that made it so if you didn't have prove thyself you were unable to repair gens except at a 10% speed: its just a fundamentally unhealthy interaction because it just limits the options of every player involved and ends up being a nothng-burger for everyone besides the people who don't play into it, who instead just auto lose a lot of games over it.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1834876#Comment_1834876
This will never happen, because carry distance for the lower end distance killers had to be buffed specifically in the context of body blocking. So creating a perk that re-introduces that in that specific context is not going to happen, as the entire problem with killer movespeed nerfs/wiggle buffs for survivors is if you have 2-3 survivors bodyblocking and chain healing to make hook phases literally impossible.
Again, can't stress enough:
**We will never see a generic wiggle increase/distance decrease because it creates infinites. This is the phase of the game where survivors are plain old helpless, and this perk, while bad, represents about as much power as you can give to survivors 'generically' in this phase.**
The fact other wiggle perks are also (generally) bad isn't a flaw. Maybe those perks shouldn't exist, but the solution isn't to buff them on principle, if the buffs make the game worse they shouldn't happen. And, again, these perks were effectively nerfed due to the core mechanic of carrying being buffed to make body blocking and sabo harder recently for good reason.
Survivors should not generally plan around escaping while being carried unless they are planning to do a wacky meme combo. It just is unhealthy.
Ok I see what you mean. Balancing perks is hard.
I still think the perk should be changed to make it more usable to the survivors but fair for the killers. Would what your suggesting also won't make it toxic or impossible to deal with?
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@dezzmont said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1834583#Comment_1834583
'The current perk is bad' isn't a valid reason to change the perk into something that is fundamentally toxic.
You can't make reducing the killer's carry speed fair, pretty much flat out. It just has too much of an effect on body blocking. In fact, they literally buffed carry speed recently on slower killers specifically for this reason: It made it effectively impossible for some killers to hook on certain maps vs coordinated survivors. So a speed reduction almost certainly will never ever happen without some super extreme downside.
Carry reduction is a bit more possible, we have seen a few perks of this nature, but its always done in a way that makes it have really obvious counter play and a more limited effect. The reduction in distance would have to be so small for this to be a generic effect that you would almost never notice or care, making the perk still bad.
The implicit fallacious assumption you make is that the perk being bad means that it needs to be fixed by changing the killer's carry speed or distance, but in fact that assumes A: Bad perks NEED to be changed (They don't, but it would be nice) and thus any cost is worth it and B: That this is the only possible change to the perk, when that isn't true, and C: This would make it a generally good perk, which it probably wouldn't, it would just allow extreme toxicity.
For example, really simple change that may make it 'better' but non-toxic, and thus solves issue B, is increasing the penalty to carry distance when dropping the survivor, and the cooldown for MISSED attacks when carrying. This helps solidify the perk in the 'I want to make it easier to sabo for me or bodyblock for me' without actually just applying a big penalty to the killer in a moment where you are intended to have no control and them all of the control.
That said, the core issue is the niche of the perk isn't very healthy. If its too useful it becomes a 'new old DS' where it is just too easy to get second chances and killers are forced to constantly slug again. If it isn't useful enough even if it works why spend a perk slot on something that only kinda helps when you get downed when you can use perks to avoid getting downed? So viewing this perk as a 'It will prevent me from being hooked' perk is probably a bad idea overall, and it may just be a design that has to languish because its so anti-fun, like Unrelenting or Slippery meat: It isn't a 'do nothing' perk, but its just not very good.
Ok well there has to be some change that be made in order to make it good if not more usable then a second chance perk.
What about if the killer is carrying you struggling will obscure any and all hook auras and not other effect? Is that change more balanced?
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@Nicholas said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1833442#Comment_1833442
You can still tunnel after DS, it's so easy and effective and that's a problem the Survivors are often faced with. Every discussion about DS is strictly from the perspective of the poor killer but never from the poor survivors that are getting relentlessly tunneled and deleted. Imo DS is a chase extender unless the Gates are open and you're close enough to run out. The Killer can easily (and frequently) will continue to tunnel after successfully stunning them.
I have been saying this for a while but its always ignored. I think I'm going to not bother mentioning it since its dismissed and people mock you for jt.
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@dezzmont said:
There is a reason that the devs do NOT mess around with killers being able to quickly and cleanly hook things. A killer finishing a chase is meant to be a high point moment for them, and, barring few exceptions, survivors should be *utterly powerless* when being carried.
The last time they added generic anti-carry perks to the game it literally caused a killer strike that drove Qs to 2 hours long at times. You can't balance the concept of making it harder to hook or easier to wiggle out generically. It is just way too toxic to the killer experience.
Like... MAYBE if it also increased carry time, so you don't get ANY additional time alive, you just make body blocks worse and eat a bit more killer time going down? But even that is probably way too much, as bodyblocks are meant to be mega rare because, again, anything that makes the killer feel powerless on pickup is EXTREMELY bad for the game and is so frustrating it actually causes killers to quit. It literally is what killed Deathgarden, for example.
A slowdown even with a time increase is problematic because any amount of slowdown makes it so the killer literally can't hook if you have a SWF bodyblocking. The margins on hook distance are already super thin on many zones and you would create 'carry infinite' spots pretty trivially.
I see what your saying but with the current perk its really bad. Its not helpful at all. Of we ever have hope in changing the meta we need to make perks with strong effects. Maybe we can lower the speed to make it more fair but in its current state It needs to be changed.
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@C3Tooth said:
Agitation: increase walking speed by 18%
While struggling the killers speed while carrying you are decreased by 50%
1 way to balance.
@Felnex said:
Hook obfuscation should be increased drastically
Killer walk speed reduced by 10%, or your Wiggle speed increased by 10%
I was able to look at your feedback and make changes. What about now?