coppersly
coppersly
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@PickCollins said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/882622#Comment_882622
THANK YOU. I'm sick of the "if you need to spam blinks ur a bad Nurse" like okay first of all you can't NOT spam blinks with Nurse. And second, 2 blinks is not spam.
You can walk people through the steps of how to blink attack someone and they still think blink spam mindless bullshit still exists. You can't help stupid sadly.
@Weederick said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/882622#Comment_882622
You spam the blink whenever its ready, just like the old tinkerer instasaw billys, and hope for a lucky hit. If Billy gets a 3s cooldown, it would mostly affect instasaw spamming. You know, chainsaw from 5m away, miss, chainsaw from 5m away, miss, .... Stupid unskilled gameplay.
You spam the blink whenever its ready, just like the old tinkerer instasaw billys, and hope for a lucky hit. If Billy gets a 3s cooldown, it would mostly affect instasaw spamming. You know, chainsaw from 5m away, miss, chainsaw from 5m away, miss, .... Stupid unskilled gameplay.
As someone else has already explained you NEED to use blinks to even move as Nurse, so of course you're going to be constantly using your power. It still doesn't reward you for just mashing the button or holding it down till full charge everytime since you need to AIM, PREDICT, AND ANALYZE THE DISTANCE AND PATH OF THE SURVIVOR.
If you aren't doing those things then you will NEVER get a hit unless they walk into you on purpose. There is no such thing as blink spam because anyone who is just mindlessly using blinks aren't in any rank past 19.
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@PickCollins said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/870971#Comment_870971
Ok hold up.
"You can keep complaining, but it's not gonna change much."
Actually it probably will. Devs have said they don't balance on stats alone (but they did justify saying Spirit is getting nerfed by saying she's doing too well statistically even tho she wasn't but whatever). And Almo has said complaints draw attention. Complaining is how you get the devs to focus on something. That's how they got their attention on Spirit, that's how Plague got nerfed coming off the PTB and how Demo got buffed coming off the PTB. So this statement is just wrong.
"The devs gutted Legion and have barely done anything good for the killer since, and despite the overwhelming negative feedback, that's likely not gonna change. Nurse is still getting consistent results at her best, so they're not gonna touch her. I will agree they need to try again with a lot of her addons, they played it too safe and went with things that wouldn't lead to another 5 blink or omega blink situation."
Yes the devs ate Legion alive, and even I have been pissed with BHVR for it. The Legion changes were the same thing that they did with Nurse. it was a lazy amalgamation of nerfs and addon changes aimed at appeasement. I have been in favor of fixing Legion since the rework. The devs took another swing at him with this patch (which arguably is another nerf so yeah definitely stay pissed at them for it). But the whole point of mistakes like the ones they made with Freddy and Legion was supposed to be so they don't do it again. Not so they can repeat it ad infintum and never learn. They were supposed to learn to not do something like this with Nurse. They even said "we will not be blindly swinging the nerf hammer at Nurse. We will be taking very measured steps on how to change her."
As for her addons, you mention that you think they played it too safe with some. I think you are right in the sense of her red addons especially feel so safe that they border on lazy design. (Matchbox should make her a 110 killer and Bookmark should not have the LOS penalty. Waiting 6 seconds after a 3 second fatigue [9 seconds total] for 3 blinks is fine). But I'd be fine with ignoring her addons. Many of them would be so much better if they reverted the basekit nerf. And that is the focal point of Nurse mains' frustrations with the changes. We don't care about the addons. None of us are on Reddit, these forums, the Steam forums, Facebook, Twitter, or any social media platform you can think of saying "woe is me my omegablink is gone" or "whatever will I do without 5 blinks". Nurse mains, ever since the rework, have been complaining "this basekit nerf is unfun. We don't care if she's still strong we care that she's fun". And now the stats even show that she isn't even fkn strong anymore. She's unfun. She's weak. And BHVR insists on wanting to wait and see if she's still good.
"Increasing the fatigue of blinks would feel way more artificial. No one wants to be forced to stare at a 75% black screen for 4 seconds because they whiffed a hit."
You don't even need to increase the duration. You can make the screen darker. You can remove the head wobble (the argument that her fatigue causes motion sickness is a giant truckload of equivocating bullshit by the way. I can't even stare at a book without wanting to vomit if I'm in a car or on a plane, and I have never gotten motion sickness playing Nurse but gotta appease everyone). You can completely freeze her during her fatigue. You can make sounds even harder to hear. You don't need to increase base fatigue time or even the scaling. You can do a lot of stuff to give survivors a more tangible window to escape Nurse without screwing with Muscle memory or making Nurse players feel more helpless.
"At least the current recharge penalty allows players to get a good eye on where the survivors went to make a second attempt at their strike."
Except it doesn't do that. All it does is create this awkward moment where Nurse just stares at a survivor and they have way too much time to escape her. Currently survivors can make way too many mistakes against Nurse and walk away with no penalty. That's not indicative of a strong killer.
"Look, man, I understand the frustration, but I personally can't believe that those of you screaming to the sky about it are the majority. I only see people complaining about it here on the forums, and the people on these forums have some pretty wild opinions that circulate among each other and don't really change for any reason."
If we're getting into that, then it isn't just here. On reddit you have some people finally coming to their survivor main senses. IIRC the Steam forums were pretty steamed with the rework. There was a lot of negative feedback about this rework. Over 3 pages of nothing but "I don't like the Nurse changes" pertaining to the basekit nerf.
"At the end of the day, things are only gonna change if Nurse starts severely underperforming at her highest level of play, or if her play rate drops to a ridiculously low number. It may suck for you and other Nurse players, but that's the way the cookie crumbles."
Except that's the problem. What you are describing that would entice BHVR to change Nurse is EXACTLY what's happening. Her red rank pickrate is nowhere near top 5. Her killrate is the 3rd WORST. NURSE IS UNDERPERFORMING AND BHVR SAID THEY WONT DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT.
"I don't really see the people in this thread changing the way they are all looking at the situation, so I'm probably gonna stop paying attention to this thread from here on. I hope you can continue to enjoy the game with another killer, or the devs can reach some kind of middleground that makes everybody happy. Cheers."
It's not on this community to adapt to an unfun mechanic, killer, or survivor ability in the game. It's on the devs to make it fun.
Well said.
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@qwopper47 said:
The obsession already gets a small bonus of 1000BP when he/she dies or escapes.
That's such a risky chance to take for such a great reward.
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@Mr_K said:
I broke down and tried playing her over the weekend. Every blink I land where I wanted then get server tugged back 4 meters while trying to swing or blink again. Hopefully the PTB changes come tomorow with a fix to the missing blink animation. Until then I don't feel like playing anymore.
I almost caved yesterday and came close to launching the game.
But I won't put myself through that just to try and see my girl again. It's not worth the pain :(
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@Mr_K said:
Only risk is Rancor.
Yes it is about the only good design in regards to the obession I think.
@Boss said:
Maybe hooking the Obsession gives the Killer buff #1, hooking them again grants buff #2, but killing them in any way removes buffs #1 & #2 & gives debuff #1.
Them going from phase 1 to 2 while on the Hook would not give buff #2, deincentivizing camping to get buff #2.
Hooking a new Obsession would remove any buffs & debuffs you had and grants the buffs or debuff, depending on the new Obsession's state on the Hook.
Disconnected Obsessions would remove all buffs & debuffs.
I tried.
This was a good attempt. It rewards playing with the obession instead of ignoring them and it gives it value without making it mandatory to win to the point of tunneling, depending on the buffs of course. Maybe the buffs could even be unique to the obession mechanic.
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@DelsKibara said:
Yes, there needs to be an inherent risk to being the obsession. Being the obsession is more like a status during the trial rather than a state you don't want to be in.
Being the obsession should be all about high risk, high reward plays. Lets say for example the Obsession gets faster struggle speed when being carried by the killer, they can vault windows and pallets slightly faster, and other stuff that makes it so the obsession can be better at a chase against the killer. To compensate for that, killers have a shorter cooldown on missed or hit attacks when chasing the obsession, they break pallets faster or get bloodlust faster when chasing them, or they could mori them on their final hook.
Just something small or big that would make feeling like being the obsession means something rather than "I brought Decisive Strike".
Exactly! When I started this game I wondered what being the obession meant. It was pretty sad to learn it meant someone brought a perk in and nothig more :(
@NuclearBurrito said:
I just want the Obsession perks to be more threatening to the Obsession.
Yessss it's like almost no risk on any of them from the get-go.
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@Mew said:
just look at deathgarden, if you balance for the minority in a game like this, the game will just flat out die since the majority are solo queue survivors, who aren’t that great, or meh killers.
But refusing to balance the issues only at high ranks creates extreme frustration for anyone who has to suffer through it.
I don't believe it's the end all be all of balance but it works better than trying to work around the middle of your playerbase.
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@anarchy753 said:
That's just flawed logic. Noed is pretty damn balanced at high level play because any form of coordination or just basic understanding of the game can remove it entirely, but it's horrible for lower rank players who can't rely on their teammates to do one totem apiece.
A killer that requires expert plays and specific perks to evade at high ranks, but can be beaten, can completely steamroll in the midranks because not everyone runs Iron Will or knows how to perfectly dodge grass while leaving confusing scratch marks.
Dota for instance is a game where they balance almost exclusively based on the pro players, and it's pretty evident that you end up with "pubstompers," heroes which excel in both pickrate and winrate in public games, and yet they continue to be buffed because they aren't as reliable against expert players.
DBD is not an esport, it's competitive but not in the sense of an actual "competitive game" to be ground for ever higher world ranking and such. It's far more casual than that and should be balanced as such.
No doubt it has it's drawbacks but I believe it's better than balancing for the middle of your games elo. Look at games like Overwatch where they do just that. Like OP said, people ABUSE the living hell out of everything and anything in that game that is broken if you are good enough to use it. This just leads to matches in higher elo consisting of only certain heros because they might suck for middle players but they have something that a good player can absolutely abuse without worrying about devs removing it.
In a game like DbD we need to balance around the top players because if we don't then we just prepetuate the killer bullying system we have now. Who PLAYS KILLER TO BE BULLIED BY SURVIVORS? Why is that even an option in the game lmao
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@DaGreenBolt said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/880961#Comment_880961
Yeah the fatigue is meant to be a cooldown, but apparently that isn't enough to the Devs. I forgot what the Devs said, but it was about the Nurse blinking too much and that adding extra time to fatigue would hurt sensitive people (medical reasons). This leads me to believe none of them have ever played nurse before, or even tested the Nurse themselves.
The added cooldown, the fact survivors can see the nurse reappear before the nurse actually reappears, and dedicated servers have killed the Nurse.
Survivors can literally run in a straight line and outrun the nurse without range add ons. The nurse is now an add on dependent killer, and there is now a reason why her kill rate is so low, and this nerf is the reason.
Here's another question that could be asked, Why did they nerf Nurse but not the survivor equivalent, which is SWF? (Instaheals are not an equivalent to the Nurse, yes they are very unfun to play against but they aren't SWF level. Also, don't start with not all SWF are sweaty or optimal, etc. because we could say the same for Nurse).
I completely agree with you, if they can fix a very niche issue killer than surely they can dedicate the resources to fixing a problem that plagues killers of all ranks and even survivors if the SWF team is toxic enough.
Also I hate how they turned the model for what a killer and their power should be (doesn't NEED addons and the power is useful in many ways) and turned that on it's head. Now she needs addons and her power is extremely limiting and punishing to use despite needing to for everything. Bonkers they went 180 on good design :/
And it's pretty obvious now no one on the balance team plays Nurse, or most killers it seems. If ANY of them did then they don't have the voice to stop the terrible changes.
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@[Deleted User] said:
I'm still wondering why people don't leave quietly and must come onto the forums to post their obituary on here. Hopefully you find a new game that you like but... how did it take you over a year to figure out this wasn't the game for you
They post it here in a vain attempt to have the devs see it and change the game.
We like the game and want to play it, but it is actively being pushed towards unplayable by the community of tryhards squeezeing the game and the devs decsions with the game itself.
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@pichumudkip said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/871812#Comment_871812
Eh I don't really see that issue with her but it could be because I'm not necessarily a nurse main let alone killer main.
I promise you that is the reason. If you play her for any time outside of potato ranks you will have a miserable time.
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@ChainsawCharlie said:
I've literally never accidentally died on hook during 2nd stage. Though a few of my friends have and I always ask them "######### dude." I just tap the button moderately, without going too slow and it's never killed me...so that leads me to believe it's operator error. I can just see a survivor tapping the button at the bare minimum speed with a bored look on their face and then dying due to input lag or something and then acting surprised. If you don't want to die, maybe you should tap the button enough to reflect that. If you're tapping fast enough, input lag won't get you. If you're tapping at the bare minimum though, you're likely to get lagged out and die.
I really never understood the argument here. "I don't want to button mash :(" It's really not that hard to do, and if you die on second stage, what's the longest you'd have to do it for? Not even 60 seconds. You call yourselves gamers and you can't even tap a button for a small amount of time? Pfft
It makes sense gameplay wise too. The entity is summoned and is trying to kill you, and you're fighting it off. If you watch the animation on the hook, the survivor is actively grabbing a claw and keeping it from piercing their heart.
Ignoring this entirely,
I agree the button mashing is dumb and the reasoning for it is lame. There are far better ways to achieve the same result without the tedious and annoying apects we have now.
- skill checks every few seconds (really easy so even potatoes won't struggle with them but they still force you to be there and paying attention)
- some sort of puzzle dynamic
- etc... literally anything is better/more thought provoking than mashing a single button over and over. repetition =/= engaging or skillful.
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@Todgeweiht said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/873998#Comment_873998
I feel like the fatigue speedboost should be base kit, maybe a bit slower
Base kit with her current set-up with the asinine cooldown sure.
But if they ever get rid of that stupid mechanic then I think it would be unnecessary at that point.
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Before I quit there were a few issues I would get too.
- During fatigue you gain a huge speedboost (this honestly could've been an addon, it's that kind of cool bug)
- Sometimes blinking at a pallet would make you land on top of the pallet and your swing would of course miss since they are on a different elevation
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As tedious and boring as generators are now I doubt mashing space is going to make them anymore interesting. You're basically making it like being on 2nd stage of hook but it's your main objective now.
I would like to see them changed into something that is slower paced and requires a lot of thought to complete instead of just sitting in place.
My idea is have parts for gens that are scattered all around and in quantities depending on their rarity (i.e., the last part you need only spawns 5 total) and gens are now a puzzle like object that you have to solve with moving around the map actually being required/used for gens.
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Meta is an unfortunate side effect of gamers wanting to win at any cost regardless of what their enemies must face because of it. As long as there are more options to choose from than to use, and they have even slight differences in their impact on the game there will always be a meta.
You can't stop people from using what's considered good for the game. All you can do is try and make the weaker things stronger without touching the already strong/used stuff so there is more diversity.
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@humanbeing1704 said:
I hope not dont want a perk ruined just because of survive with friends
Unfortunately they are already ruining the entire game. A few perks here and there are nothing compared to the overall health of the game since you can be a sweaty toxic squad without perks.
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@pichumudkip said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/869314#Comment_869314
I mean Nurse is still pretty good. Maybe not SS Tier but she's still S Tier in my opinion
It's not about her being strong. She's for sure weaker but that's not the problem I have with her now, it's how unfun it is to use her and how she went from skillful gameplay equals reward to it takes so much skill to even finish the game without force closing it.
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Thank you for this notice lmao.
@Mister_Holdout said:
The devs are very clever. They nerf our beloved Nurse but also release this skin shortly afterwards to placate us:
They keep doing the reverse money grab. You're supposed to release a kicking cosmetic BEFORE you nerf the character, not after.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/869378#Comment_869378
Yeah as you've said, it's a very high risk vs reward play and can be very punishing if the survivors work through it. Also as you've said, many perks to counter it as well.
I don't really see a difference between me sitting on the ground or on a hook. At least on the ground I don't have to spam a button, it isn't counting as one of my hooks AND I have the chance to crawl away to safety or under a pallet for a slam. I'd rather them slug me.
Those are good points, but you also risk not even getting hooked once and dying from slugging.
I definitely think we could have more slug orientated killers, that would be interesting.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/869362#Comment_869362
That's basically what most people have recommended. Not something extreme but maybe like a 10% gen debuff if fully sick/broken.
We've mentioned making the survivor pause for the vomit animation in place. This would keep pausing their gen work and also making looping while sick/broken much more dangerous.
Then we also considered making Black Incense base kit which would also make staying sick more dangerous since she'd get periodic pings where you were.
Heck they could even do Iridescent Seal base kit to make it more dangerous.
Obviously we don't mean for all of these, it could literally just be one of them only but these were some of the ideas people have passed around.
I really wanted the gen being completed and giving you a power up to be basekit but then we'll just get another Pig counter and 8 99% gens.
I think the best and healthiest change is to make Black Incense basekit or do a passive movement decrease up to like ~10%? To make it noticeable but not completely screw you over until you've waited a long time.
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@Blueberry said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/869348#Comment_869348
Well I hope that's the case.
I personally like that slugging exists as it offers different play styles and this comes from playiing as survivor as well. I don't get peoples irrational hate for slugging.
From a survivor perspective, I totally see and hate being slugged myself. Especially when the killer isn't really that good and my teammates are being potatoes and not capitalizing on the slug plays.
You're on the ground until you die crawling slowly with music that isn't really great to listen to for 4 minutes, and you're not doing anything unless you brought specific perks. In this sense though I think it's actually decent game design because you can choose to take the perks that completely counter the playstyle if you really don't want to deal with it, or risk being slugged.
From a killer perspective I don't think it's really all the great outside of niche builds since you risk wasting a chase if they pick someone up while you're away.
But as a whole, currently slugging seems to me to be ok. It's got a good risk:reward ratio.
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@Jimsalabim said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/869345#Comment_869345
Unless you use that one extremely good addon where the plague sees all the injured players and their aura. it's insanely good.
You're right. Although that's about the only scenario I legitimately see survivors wanting to cleanse before the EGC.
To the point where it could've been basekit.
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@Weederick said:
Huntress exists and not everybody likes puking and vomitting all over the place.
Yeah I gotta say when I say 'Plague' I was interested, and when I saw her I was instantly hooked and waiting for what cool and interesting power she would have... and then she puked.
And that's all she did. What a waste tbh.
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@StarMoral said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/869327#Comment_869327
While I personally do slug a lot to get survivors off gens, I usually like doing that out my own choice.
Having that integrated into the power seems a little restrictive and clunky.
Restrictive and clunky..🤔 that sounds about what they're going for. Just look at janky Nurse.
@Blueberry This wouldn't be the first time they've changed their minds on something. Stranger things and human killers is a big one.
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Like @Blueberry said, once you have puked on everyone, good survivors are just going to power through the match and cleanse at the end of the game essentially robbing you of your power.
This is why being sick needs some sort of recurring debuff that gets worse over time and forces people to choose and ignore it and suffer the debuff or cleanse it and risk powering up Plague.
Right now it's hands down better every single time to just power through it and wait to cleanse. It feels so dumb to use your power in the first minute and then never again unless you bring specific addons.
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@StarMoral said:
He seems pretty good besides some QoL changes he could get.
-No slowdown when collecting orbs
-Allow the power to stay on when picking a survivor up
-Reduce sound when out of Rage
@Blueberry said:
Remove the slow down on blood orb pickup and remove the directional sound he has. Picking up a survivor also shouldn't drain his power, it's already costing him duration on it for the pick up.
I think you guys are missing the point. It was a design choice to turn off and drain his power when picking someone up. They want to encourage slugging and getting survivors off gens to pick up downed ones while someone else is chased.
At least I think that's what they're going for. These are also the people who thought long and hard about changes for Nurse and came out with a complete and utter dud so who knows anymore.
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It WAS Nurse.
Now it's just Hag until they breath life into Nurse again (pun intended)
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@meatisadelicacy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/862718#Comment_862718
Gotta agree with this.
I played this game solo for months and only recently started playing with friends. Most games, we only get 2-3 gens done. Just because we're SWF doesn't mean we're good (or toxic), and many times we've given killers more kills because we try to make an unwise save to help a friend. I've played a fair amount of killer games against good SWF or at least much better than I am as killer and it's not always fun, but there's nothing I can do about it so I'm not going to get worked up about it.
Well it should be pretty obvious by now anecdote evidence does not mean anything.
And yes SWF does change the game significantly. If you're just couching it up with friends that is still a better position than being a solo survivor. Now add in people who are good at the game (i.e., abusing loops/mechanics) and can finish a generator in the fastest time possible x4 and suddenly the game is completely different.
Some killers (not players) can handle a SWF group that is being toxic/sweaty. Some just don't have the tools in their base kit and even addons to tackle and actually win against a SWF unless the survivors are making a large amount of mistakes.
So to reiterate; Just because you have faced SWF before and killed them doesn't mean they aren't a problem and it shouldn't be addressed. If Nurse is an addressable problem and she was only good on 1 platform and in 1 rank why can't we fix an issue that affects all players on all platforms at all ranks?
And I have to say it, it is beyond stupid to post a SINGLE match you have had and put it up on display like it's some sort of divine truth. It's one single game. They might've been potatoes, they might've been giving it to you, there are so many possibilities and you want to chuck it all up to your skill and nothing else. Riiiiiiiiight.
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If you're hoping for SWF to get addressed... yeah it's never going to be. BHVR is too afraid and/or doesn't know how to fix the problem THEY created.
Camping is at least seeing some work. IDK how they are going to make people camp less other than by de-incentive it heavily which they already have begun with camping affecting emblems.
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@TheKingOfAll said:
People who are still crying about spirit are just the bad spirits. If you needed prayer beads to win, you were a bad spirit. If you needed to bump into survivors to find them, you were a bad spirit. If you relied on not having a window vault animation, you were a bad spirit. Same with the nurse. I do agree they went a little overboard by changing her base power, but her addon changes were fair. If you required 5 blinks, you were a bad nurse. If you required omega blink, you were a bad nurse.
Both the nurse and the spirit are still extremely strong, but with the new balance changes it becomes slightly more difficult to learn how to play as them. A larger penalty for missing your blink. Not being able to run into a survivor for a free hit while phasing. The removal of very broken addon combinations. None of these things effect really good nurses and spirits. All you have to do is play a little better, put in a little more effort, get a little more practice, and you will be absolutely fine.
Basekit changes effect everyone regardless of what addons they were using.
No, it isn't just a small change, it affected a lot of her kit and effectively eradicated her mind-games.
No, you don't need to put in a little more effort, you need to completely change the way you play Nurse otherwise you end up making chases last so long you think you're in a joke game.
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@LordGlint said:
Theyre not going to go too crazy with reward killers for having a "harder match" when their own stats already show that the difference in survival rating between a 4 man SWF and a group of solos is only like a 7% difference.
Everyone knows it isn't a majority of players that are the nightmare SWF.
But just because it's a small amount of people doesn't mean the problem isn't serious or that we shouldn't address it. If we can address Nurse who was only strong on 1 platform and only in red ranks we can do the same for SWF that affects all ranks and all platforms.
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@Fibijean said:
The developers have already told us what their plan is for SWF. Bring solo survivors up to the same level of information as SWF players are allowed, which I'm guessing will probably take the form of UI improvements for all survivors, since they've said they don't want to implement voice chat into the game. This kind of new information would be inconsequential to typical SWF players, since they can get all the same info from voicecoms if they choose, but for solo players or SWF playing without voice, it would help to bridge that gap. After that, they can work to balance killers appropriately.
We've seen almost no follow-through on this since they said that though.
They have only made it worse in some cases like nerfing on of the answers to it.
Ask any solo survivor. Lot of them are waiting for the changes too.
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@Tydie said:
thank you for saying this. i've been playing nurse for a long time, and i would play her with no addons and no slow down perks. now she is so addon dependent, (the recharge speed addons) and it's making me want to put on ruin which i've never felt like i needed. i feel like killers shouldnt need to depend on addons. also thanks for bringing up the terrain aspect. clipping on objects is extremely punishing.
Yeah she used to be about addons empowering her. Now she needs them to function.
I never needed ruin to do well with her if I was on my game. Now I wouldn't dare dream of playing any killer without it or something to slow down gen speeds. It's a suicide mission in red ranks.
They took what made Nurse great and made it so painfully mediocre.
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@Venom368 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/866715#Comment_866715
What do you mean by this? And why did you add a smiley face?
SWF was introduced after the game received a review bomb on steam from survivors demanding they add a way to play together.
The game was obviously designed for solo survivors in mind. I think an obvious extension was always going to be something like SWF, I just wish they had planned for this or since they didn't, would address it for the health of the game.
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@Venom368 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/866625#Comment_866625
I agree that it is an unfair advantage. But, I think it is an inherent flaw with the game and there is nothing that can reasonably be done about it.
The only possible way to balance the existing issue would be to enable comms in game for all survivors. That's the only way. And that would require rebalancing everything about the game. It would be far too much to reasonably change. It would be a completely different game.
I can't think of any other change that could be made that wouldn't make you feel disadvantaged for playing SWF. Any other change would be subjective.
It's funny you say there is nothing that can be done to fix the flaw, when the flaw was actually introduced due to review bombing :^)
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Go play Civ 5.
It's what Matthew would want.
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@Venom368 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/866567#Comment_866567
I haven't really seen any DBD montages or anything, but I'll take your word for it. And I've only ever played solo survivor. I haven't played SWF before. Comm's in a SWF group seems unfair, but a killer shouldn't be balanced around its ability to deal with that..
Nothing has been done against SWF yet because people shouldn't be punished for wanting to play with their friends. And there is certainly people playing SWF that aren't in comms with eachother. The people that are in comms have an advantage, but just based on the nature of the game being asymmetrical, I don't think there's anything that can/should be done about it. Especially since there is no way to prove that a SWF group is in comms. The most BHVR can do is not support voice chat.
I don't want to punish friends who play together, but you admit it yourself the advantage it provides is basically unfair.
Killers need to be design around this because if they don't have the capability to deal with the most broken and powerful techniques in the game from survivors, survivors will always win and the game will become extremely stale very quickly. Of course survivors have been getting weaker with updates but that just shows you how strong and how much of the power role they really are if even after years of nerfs they are still too powerful in some aspects.
But my suggestion to fix this, and many others suggestion, doesn't even affect SWF. If we make solo survivors comparable or on the same level as SWF, then we can make the game much easier to balance around. Right now there are essentially 2 game modes, solo survivor and SWF survivor. 1 of them is significantly harder than the other, and 1 uses tactics and 3rd party software that was never intended to be a part of Dead by Daylight.
This makes balancing the game very harder because if something is too weak for solo survivors that doesn't mean it isn't broken and game breaking with SWF, or vice versa. Some killers can deal with SWF (cough like Nurse USED to be able to) and some just can't. That is bad game design especially when the problem can be mitigated by fixing the survivor issue of SWF.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/866570#Comment_866570
Yup. I actually think that buffing Hag to 112.5%ms and increasing her trap range would make her more fun for everyone. She's perceived as unfun because of her weaknesses, not her strengths. I don't want to be campy, but base trap range is too limited to cover even half of a map, and she's way too slow to chase outside of her web. The reduced speed curve coming out of traps makes them just ok at some loops. But trapping loops during chase is ineffective most of the time.
I agree, her range limitation is a double edged sword.
It feels like it would be too strong to have basekit, but having a limited range encourages hook camping like you say. But having map wide range would encourage more strategic trap placement since you have a much wider area to cover with way less traps than you need to do it.
I also agree the speed coming out of teleport is another problem. It feels like the byproduct of their earlier days when they didn't have as much experience in animation and coding. I'm sure now they could redo/touch up the teleportation so you aren't extremely slow for a second before returning to normal speed.
Those 2 changes are all she needs, and one of them is honestly just a QOL fix.
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@LetsPlayTogether said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/107252/nurse-stats
Was so obvious someone would misinterpretate these stats to rant about nurse being unplayable. Just learn to play her since she just needs adjustments in her playstyle to be nearly as too strong as she was in basekit before. Accept you wont be able to blink braindead as before. Cause thats the real issue players are suffering from atm (besides servers -.- ).
If you blinked braindead around the map do you know what you would get?
Nothing. Because that's not how you play Nurse.
It never rewarded you for just spamming blinks mindlessly, you always always always have had to aim and take movement and map layout into account, as well as movement over time.
Stop posting this stupid #########, it gets so old hearing it when it is such a baseless argument.
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@[Deleted User] said:
Lots of people wondering about Hag's low pick rate. I play her for many of the same reasons people wouldn't. I like that I don't have to chase or loop when I use her. You're constantly evaluating the map and gen layout to build and reshape your web so thst your chases are essentially over before they begin. When you understand the survivor tendencies and pathing, only Nurse and Spirit can rival Hag's chase speed (in her web). She's super difficult though. Every map tile on every map has a specific place a trap needs to be to get someone, and she can feel frustrating against well-coordinated SWFs that somehow always manage to run outside of your web. The games can also get tedious if survivors get completely immersed towards the end or 3 gen themselves but also refuse to do any of them (happens more than you think).
I had a game where the last 3 gens were on one side and I had a wall of traps preventing entrance. It got to the point where they had people running in to get hit while the others rushed past until they were hit where they would proceed to run back into the gen-less area to try and bait me out.
It was a long game but you can't really stop them when they do stuff like that as hag :(
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@Venom368 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/866523#Comment_866523
I was not active on the forums prior to the nerf, but I did of course know that the multi-blink add-ons had always been an issue. But, every streamer I had ever watched pre-nerf always used her without add-ons and still complained about her strength. So in my eyes, it seemed like a nerf to her base kit was justified when several rank 1 killers consistently complained about her ability to be far more effective than other killers, even without using add-ons
How many videos have been and still are made showing squads bullying killers? Or streamers looping killers to the point where they have DC montage videos. Nothing has been done to address SWF, a problem that affects EVERY killer, yet we have decided to completely gut the fun of a killer who only saw use on a very specific platform and only in high elo where the devs say they don't want to balance the game around.
And there was always counterplay to Nurse. Tru3 did a few videos on it that I saw many people put into practice against me. It was up to survivors to change the way they engage with the killer when it was Nurse. Most refused and tried to applying the same boring looping strategy to her as they do for other killers. When that doesn't work they complained of no counterplay. Now they can just literally run across the map a few times and waste so much of your time without even having to wipe a single drop of sweat off.
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@Uxoricide said:
@Mr_K @coppersly @OmegaXII we now have an answer from developers regarding nurse: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/866488#Comment_866488
Guess I'll be playing Civ 5 for a while like Mr. Pretty Good Job So Far would suggest.
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@Venom368 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/866476#Comment_866476
I do agree with you that it would have been better to test the add-on changes alone first. But from what I recall, many people used her without any add-ons. (I know I did)
But most of the outcry was for addons. The devs started out saying it was just going to be addons.
It would have been so much better to have data and reason behind basekit changes instead of a shotgun approach by people who clearly don't understand what makes her fun and interesting to play.
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As the devs have said themselves, changes will always boost popularity regardless of whether they were positive or negative. It's only been a month since the changes.
Hopefully in a few more there will show a big decline as people drop her because of the frustration built into her now.
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@Venom368 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/866428#Comment_866428
She went from being a 'fun killer' to 'not fun' because of the blink recharge..?
Yes. It breaks her flow. You use blinks for everything, and having the so limited when you need them the most (finding a survivor after traveling the map) it forces you to hold 1 blink at all times otherwise risk making the next chase extremely long. Because that's the next big unfun part, it went from skillful map interaction and reading of survivor and killer to juke Nurse, but now all you need to do is run forward and occasionally break LOS so you can get out of double blink range before in essence resetting that chase completely. It went from skillful to -> anyone can do it.
Lastly, you know this was a band-aid fix when something like 99% on blinks can happen. It was clearly never intended to have such restrictions on it and they certainly have done nothing to ease it such as a slower recharge rate while using blinks or even just another blink in the vault so you have options.
The changes removed her mind-games, her map-travel, her fluidity, and diverse ways to play her and is now forcing you to play a very specific way or get punished extremely hard. I have had zero fun with her changes, the addons would've been enough on their own but we didn't even get a good addon pass either.
@Peanits said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/866428#Comment_866428
Again, to repeat the line from the post: "Please keep in mind that numbers are not everything; there are a whole bunch of factors that could influence these numbers."
You should not draw conclusions from those statistics alone. Her pick rate is on the lower end largely due to the fact that she's not played very frequently on console. The graphs shown (aside from the Nurse-PC specific one) are all platforms. We are working on increasing the range of sensitivity for controllers which should make her a little more inviting for console players.
As far as PC specifically goes, she is still picked fairly often (and performing well above the 50% expectation, climbing back up each day as people adjust).
You say it yourself, stats aren't everything. You take fun into consideration certainly, we can see that by the recent Spirit changes. So why then, when there are so many good suggestions, fixes, and altogether better changes on the forums that have gone ignored?
You know she is drastically less fun and certainly less flexible than before, can we please do something to address this?
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@Venom368 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/107254/according-to-bhvrs-own-stats
Just a couple of comments based on your questions you listed at the end:
The feedback from the Nurse changes has been overwhelmingly negative from Nurse players. It has been overwhelmingly positive from everybody else. I feel like a killer with the ability to avoid many of the games mechanics, that all other killers have to abide by, should have an extremely high skill ceiling and be punished heavily for mistakes.
If the majority of the community feels that when they play against a killer, they are just going to die no matter what they do, I think that killer should be very punishing to make mistakes with.
The hag is an extremely strong killer. And it's mostly due to her ability to camp. And it has to do with people not liking that playstyle. I think having strong killers for different niches of playstyles is good for the game. I think it's impressive that BHVR has been able to make killers that play much differently that remain pretty balanced with eachother.
I don't think they were overwhelmingly positive from everyone else. Certainly from people like yourself who are content with the changes. Bystanders with no investment one way or the other have, just as their group name is, mixed opinions. I've seen quite a few people agree the addons should be changed but the basekit was too much (especially if they haven't tested the addon changes first like they should have) but I've also seen people agree with the changes.
Either way, we'll never have the solid data that could be very useful in this debate. If they have changed her addons first and left her basekit alone, we could see if it was just addons over-performing or if it had something to do with her basekit. Now we'll never get to know AND she's unfun! The best outcome!
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@Endstille said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/862525#Comment_862525
She never was a win button. That is something people say that have no clue about the game at all.
Your argument is so bad, it reminds me of old freddy and when people explained their frustration with the killer some boy would always jump in, i just 4ked. All good, killer is fine.
If you do not understand the issue, stop posting about it.
Anyone who thinks she was just an instant win before the changes regardless of the addons you used are just spouting off incoherent garbage because they can't think of anything better. The entire argument is stupid because the second you have to explain how you're getting hits and downs you literally explain the skills needed to not just mindless win. Such a stupid and pointless comment when they say that stupid #########.
@beatddb said:
Is she capable of 4k? Yes.
Does anyone in the match has fun? No.
She is boring and frustrating to play as, and boring to play against because of how easy is to run her
This is the core problem now. Quite succinct.
@TragicSolitude said:
Playing against her sucks. I get very few chase points because she falls so damn far behind that it doesn't count us as still being in a chase. I shouldn't have to stop and wait for the killer to catch up to get Boldness points.
Yeah when I lost chase after going into fatigue after almost every hit... I thought it was a joke. No way that it was intended to be so easy to break chase and run from Nurse.
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@concious_consumer said:
Lel nurse weak. No more crutches with 3 blinks for you.
Almost every single nurse in red ranks that I played against completely mopped the floor with survivors. If anything it felt like she was buffed not nerfed.
The ones that failed and d/c were a new killer called Clownurse
People like you shouldn't even have a voice in discussions like these, as you contribute nothing.
The rework was literally all downsides, it provides in no way, shape, or form, a new way to play Nurse (without addons, obv.) It only limits the way you can play her, provides nothing in the way of making her better or stronger. It LITERALLY only makes her weaker.
And we aren't trying to revert the addon changes, although they do need work. We just want her basekit changes reverted, since they sink any fun you can have with her and make her much less effective to the point where she beat by Legion. LEGION.
If you showed someone this back when Freddy Tier was a thing I don't think a single person on the forums would've believed you.
Sad times we are in right now.
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@OmegaXII said:
It seems like devs are intentionally ignoring threads about nurse
Maybe they think she is in good place, and any complains about her are rage posts
It's not like some of them aren't constructive and contain good feebdack either. I've seen great ideas and real feedback in threads like these. But nothing. Not even a "well, we think this' or "we did this because"
Just one post that said something about her base kit not working in a way they liked.