PickCollins
PickCollins
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@FearedbytheGods said:
This daily reminder, reminds me why nurse should never have been introduced to the game in the first place.
My question is why the devs allowed such a broken killer into the game, to begin with.
If you look at how the game was upon her release, the Nurse we had before the rework would have been underpowered as ######### compared to what survivors had.
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@Gottschi24 said:
This map is almost unplayable as Nurse, the entire middle of the map will cause your blinks to end regardless of the charge time.
I also have gotten this map maybe 6 times out of the 10 matches I've played today so I'm under the assumption it has a bias for being chosen due to it being the new release.
Don't expect any changes to Nurse to happen soon. Survivors aren't whining about her so BHVR isn't gonna do anything.
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@thesuicidefox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/889401#Comment_889401
"Assuming her pickrate never changed, she would have had one of the best killrates at around 72%, now she is the 3rd worst killrate killer in the entire game at red ranks."
This is because that statistic includes all platforms. Nurse on console is very very difficult to play, and you have a 95% chance to be playing a baby Nurse. On Xbox, I can literally count on 1 hand the number of Nurse's that are good enough to maximize her potential, and let me tell you that 99% of survivors do not stand a chance against them. And the 1% that does only does if they are SWF. I'm friends with 3 of them, and I play Nurse myself very well at red ranks (though I don't consider myself on their level).
Fact is she is still the best killer in the game on console, it's just harder to get that good with her. So all the baby Nurse's bring down the average. Devs have said that if you just look at PC her killrate is comparable to Freddy/Spirit even after the update.
"This is because that statistic includes all platforms. Nurse on console is very very difficult to play, and you have a 95% chance to be playing a baby Nurse. On Xbox, I can literally count on 1 hand the number of Nurse's that are good enough to maximize her potential, and let me tell you that 99% of survivors do not stand a chance against them"
And I can count on one hand the number of console Nurses that exist. The number of console Nurses in general has always been statistically insignificant. Her killrate was one of the best before the rework, and even before the rework Nurse was a joke of a killer on console because of all the constraints on console that held her back (constraints that PCs do not have).
"Fact is she is still the best killer in the game on console, it's just harder to get that good with her. So all the baby Nurse's bring down the average. Devs have said that if you just look at PC her killrate is comparable to Freddy/Spirit even after the update."
First of all, no they have not said that. Peanits said her killrate is "climbing back up every day" but that does not mean it is comparable to Spirit or Freddy. For all we know, she could have gone from 65 to like 66 and that's what they consider progress or she could have a 90% killrate at this point (I doubt that any killer, even old vanilla hot off the release Nurse despite how broken she was). But the devs did not say her killrate is comparable to Freddy or Spirit.
Second of all, she is not even the best killer in the game on PC anymore, so how is she supposed to be the best on console when she was never really good on console? Spirit took over red ranks after the Nurse rework. Do you think the Spirit nerfs are gonna magically throw Nurse back to the #1 spot? Bc I promise you that Freddy is taking over red ranks if the Spirit nerfs hurt her as badly as some profess them to. Nurse statistically isn't even in the top 5 for killers anymore. Saying she is #1 is asinine.
@coppersly said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/891644#Comment_891644
Addons should increase a killers power, not be mandatory to even function.
This is what I have been saying ever since I started playing DBD. Nurse was a perfect example of a healthy killer because she was viable without addons. It was only when her addons came into play that she became a problematic killer. But that wasn't because she didn't need addons in the first place, that was bc her addons had disgustingly overpowered combinations.
Addons should not be mandatory for killers to function, especially when their parallel, items, are not mandatory for survivors to function. BHVR had something good with Nurse basekit and ran it into the ground bc they can't see past their blinders of "survivors are crying and saying they won't play the game anymore if killers get to be strong."
@copperslyI know @CrowFoxy and myself were very adamant against these changes dating back to their arrival on the PTB and If I'm not mistake any posts the two of us made were flat out ignored. The devs only started responding to posts when survivors started whining about instaheals taking a hit.
makes ya wonder who they really care more about. To any dev reading this post, Why did it take only 2 survivors bitching to finally get your guys' attention but pages upon pages of killers against a change isn't worthy of anything?
I'm surprised the devs don't understand the frustration Nurse mains are feeling rn. We got lied to and ignored every step of the way through this rework. At this point I feel like I'm torturing myself by playing Nurse but I'm still playing her. It feels like ######### for the devs to do something like this.
I don't give a ######### if Nurse is the worst killer in the game. I really don't. I've always maintained that if Nurse is fun, I don't care where she is on the tier list. But the fact of the matter is that she isn't fun. And the reason she is bad is also why she isn't fun. Her identity of being a power intensive killer got stripped from her and nothing was granted to her as any kind of compensation. Now she's a messy bedsheet of a killer.
@Weederick @thesuicidefox @Helevetin_nopee If any of you 3 played Nurse for longer than the time it takes to do your dailies with ur lvl 1 prestige 0 Nurse, you'd understand the frustration Nurse mains have. But you don't. That's okay, but stop acting like you know more than you do. Bc those of us that do know what we're talking about are insulted by the lack of an intellectual argument in favor of these changes.
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@coppersly said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/889613#Comment_889613
The year is 2075. Freddy has just received his spam nerf. He can only put 1 person in the dream world every trial, and they can wake up at any time now.
The year is 2090. Spirit has been given a Nurse style fatigue after her phase walk and the recharge time has been upped to 50 seconds. Survivors can now see where Spirit is while Phasing and Spirit can no longer see scratch marks or hear survivor pain sounds while phasing.
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@LordRegal said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/889579#Comment_889579
The year is 2021. A Wraith wanders around looking in vain for a survivor waiting for his half minute cooldown on his invis to come back up, lamenting the nerf that came after people complained he spammed his cloak. In the next trial over Hag wishes she could place a trap but to prevent trap spam she’s only allowed two a minute and she already burned both for this minute.
The year is 2065. Trapper wanders around the ironworks of misery, having to wait 8 more minutes to place his trap at the god window, with a slight tear coming down his face when he remembers that survivors said they were sick of trap spam and now he has to wait 10 minutes in between trap placements.
Pig weeps when she remembers that she crouched 2 minutes ago and that is why she cannot crouch to ambush attack again against the survivor with OoO giving her location away to his teammates. Survivors didn't like her "ambush spam" so BHVR put a timer between each ambush attempt.
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@coppersly said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/889555#Comment_889555
Even the people still complaining about her recognize that an entire thread about it would be drastic overkill... but hey that's normal for slight changes right
My favorite line that gets way too much mileage for how weak it is is the "blink spam" posts. That ######### is good.
Nurse: Moves slower than survivors
Nurse: uses blinks bc that's her only way to move fast
Survivors: BLINK SPAM BLINK SPAM BLINK SPAM.
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@LordRegal said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/889530#Comment_889530
Yeah, it’s interesting that when survivor only players come to these threads they’re consistently saying “Nurse is still broken OP,” but the threads complaining about her being OP are gone. Something seems...wrong, there somehow...almost as if she’s not broken OP anymore but it’s a good sound bite that got a lot of mileage in the past...
I always laugh when people say "She's still the best killer in the game"
Like yeah no she's not. I don't even need stats to know that. The sheer fact that posts of "nurse is OP' have dried up is proof enough that she's not the best, and nowhere near it.
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I suggest you take a look at what Nurse mains are actually saying when it comes to the rework. Look at videos that highlight issues we are discovering and bringing up.
Take a look at Endstille's video that shows if a survivor gets a running start on Nurse from her TR, all they have to do is run in a straight line to evade her for the equivalent of 3 generators.
Ask Myself or @coppersly why these changes make us frustrated or angry. I made a post that got dev attention, go look at that and read it. Read what we're saying.
Arguments that she's still the best killer comes from nothing. There is no evidence to back this up. Statistically she's comparable to Clown at red ranks, Nurse mains are critical of the rework (specifically the basekit nerf) saying she's weak and not at all fun to play as.
And let me ask something to anyone who thinks she is still good. Do you honestly think that the "Nurse is OP please nerf" posts would have dried up if she was still the best killer in the game?
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@Helevetin_nopee said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/882091#Comment_882091
"Statistically" Miss me with that bullshit. Nurse IS the strongest killer in the game. No other killer can end chases as fast, regardless of what your "statistics" say. The statistics only tell the AVERAGE. Nurse is known to be one of the hardest killers to play.
By that logic you can make the same statement about Leatherface or Billy. "No other killer has an instadown in their kit! Bubba's can even hit multiple survivors!!! OP! NERF! IDC HOW BAD HE IS IN RED RANKS".
If Nurse, the hardest killer in the game ever since she got dropped to 2 blinks and made not 4.6 MS, cannot be used to the same lethal effect in red ranks as she used to with the new addons vs how she was without, then there's a ######### issue. No killer should be taken from that high up and be comparable to CLOWN statistically and be about as unfun to play as, as Spirit was to play against.
Assuming her pickrate never changed, she would have had one of the best killrates at around 72%, now she is the 3rd worst killrate killer in the entire game at red ranks. There is an issue with the killer if red rank killers cannot make her work.
So no, I'm not gonna "miss" you with this. She's not the strongest killer anymore. Suck it up and learn that Nurse =/= OP.
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@DaGreenBolt said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/887187#Comment_887187
So where's the SWF nerf, cause clearly they are the same situation as Nurse, as they can break the fundamentals of the game.
Nurse=SWF, yet Devs didn't bother attempting to fix that.
And don't say that "Why should we nerf something, just because we play with friends" or "not every SWF is sweaty and optimal" because we can say the same thing about Nurse (not every nurse is good and she was fun to play, and she required skill)
The funny thing is that SWF requires less amount of skill and time needed to learn in order to be effective compared to Nurse.
So why hasn't the equivalent of Nurse, which is SWF, been nerfed?
This. I constantly hear the "not every SWF is a 4 man bully squad" and "people just wanna play with their friends" but when you apply the same logic to Nurse (not every Nurse is good. Some people just like her playstyle) all you get hit with is "WAH OP".
I don't even want SWF nerfed. I just want Nurse fixed too.
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@Usui said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/887411#Comment_887411
I had no idea you were the ambassador for nurse mains, sorry. SO SORRY.
At this point I feel like I am. I don't want to be the Aria Rose of Nurse but srsly if people are gonna act like there is some kind of jail time Nurse needs to serve bc BHVR didn't balance her addons correctly, I'm gonna laugh at you.
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@Usui said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/887180#Comment_887180
I could care less what you or any other survivor main thinks of me. You abused nurse for years and come here daily to ######### and whine about NECESSARY changes. Get over it.
The addon changes were necessary. Everyone, including everyone on this thread, agrees with that.
But the basekit nerfs were a bridge too far. And if you pulled ur hands away from ur ears and stopped yelling "lalalalalalala" you would understand that. But no, sit there and act like balance needs to be some kind of penance process, I'm sure that will get this game travelling MILES forward
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@Usui said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/887107#Comment_887107
Yeah, that's how I feel about everything I paid for as well like MoM. Sucks, doesn't it? Also nurse was a free killer, nice try though.
the game was not free lol. At least not for those of us that can't rely on daddy's credit card.
And yeah MoM sucks but thats bc of protection hits being garbage not the perk itself being bad lol. You are the type of survivor that gives other survivors a bad name.
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@MegaGamer_01 said:
Oblivious takes the heartbeat and stain away i'm desently sure for a short while. Its how it works with wraith so im guessing its the same with everyone else
That's undetectable. not oblivious
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I don't think so since I'm pretty sure you can see the red stain if ur in the dream world.
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@Usui said:
Now imagine how survivors felt for years. Enjoy.
Imagine thinking people deserve to have their fun ruined over a game they paid for bc they liked a killer you didn't like.
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@OmegaXII said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/886544#Comment_886544
It's a good explanation, but i think they won't read it lol
But tag them nevertheless
They don't care. @Peanits was already on here and gave the same equivocating BS that every game company gives. It's clear to anyone with a head that Nurse should be on their list of changes to make very soon and they're just ignoring her outright. We were flat out ignored on the PTB and it took the stats that show the Nurse was weak to come out to finally get them to focus on this.
Only for our good ol buddy Peanits to say "stats arent everything" (while working for the company that nerfed Spirit BECAUSE of stats). And then move on. The devs got their goal accomplished, The pink haired Nea bully squads can add Nurse to their list of victims now. Survivors are happy, BHVR is happy. The only group not happy is Nurse mains, but ######### us right @Peanits ?
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@snozer said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/884180#Comment_884180
This would only be true if the games own rank system reflected it. a 2k is usually a depip or black pip. even a 3k is a black pip most of the time
The game is literally telling you that you did bad when you meet the expected goal of 2-2
This. Killers can black pip after a 3K or even a 4K at times. But survivors can die and still pip up. The currrent rank balance of the game is an issue. If the balance philosophy is 2 escapes 2 kills, then the ranking system needs to black pip killers who 2K, pip killers that 3k, and double pip killers that 4k. The current system is not feasible. I've gotten 3k's that follow with "brutal killer" and 2K's that follow with "ruthless killer" and 4k's that result in "entity displeased".
The ranking system is ######### for killers. So we view the 3K and 4K as our only salvation in this cursed game. Make 2K's a draw in terms of ranking, and then we have a solution. But the balance philosophy cannot be 2-2 if 2-2 is a loss for the killer in terms of ranks.
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@UlvenDagoth said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/882503#Comment_882503
Technically My "One stop shop for Legion Rework Ideas" thread in Feedback is me yelling at them to fix Legion.
At this point I feel like this post is me yelling at them to fix Nurse so I’m with ya there dude
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@Weederick said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/883357#Comment_883357
Y sure, but thats cutting of 1/3 of it. I'll try to find the video
Here it is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcO-rJBkcOo&feature=emb_logo
Looks very much like Whispers lighting up range. Small execution errors aside, i think that shows the primary point, that running in a straight line does not counter nurse, to come back to topic.
You miss a key point in the video where it says "however if a survivor does know this it is not possible".
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@Weederick said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/883212#Comment_883212
See, you disagree for no reason again. Im not stuck in a mindset, maybe you are to proof that she is bad. I played her a good amount after the rework and im willing to change my opinion. But she still excels over Spirit, Huntress, Billy and Hag and thus is my #1 spot on the tierlist.
Except that ISNT TRUE.
Statistically she is among the weakest killers in the game. Any caveat you can pull is not statistically significant enough to debunk that.
And yet you still refuse to accept that and use examples of people with flawed logic. lol the proof is in the pudding dude.
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@Weederick said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/883179#Comment_883179
But they all say that Nurse is still the strongest. Every sane killermain will tell you that. You dont have to main a killer to evaluate the tierspot, especially if they're coming from flex killermains. Like i said, make your own opinion by playing every killer in the red ranks. Then you know how strong killers are in relation to nurse.
Ur just stuck in the pre-rework mindset dude. Seriously all ur saying is "It's Nurse so she's S++++++++++++++ tier by default and nothing could change that. She could not be able to down survivors at all and she'd still be S++++++++++++++++++ tier"
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@Weederick said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/883117#Comment_883117
Basically, you just disagree when other people say shes fine and you disregard the math. She always had low winrates statistically, because bad nurses drag her down. And the winrate is mixed with console, so you cant compare them.
Running in a straight line does not work. Endstille even made a video on that, you can use 2 doubleblinks to catch up to a survivor ~32m away.
You just cant take my genuine opinion or accept that she is still the strongest for most killermains.
"Basically, you just disagree when other people say shes fine and you disregard the math. She always had low winrates statistically, because bad nurses drag her down. And the winrate is mixed with console, so you cant compare them."
I'm talking about her red rank statistics. And her console pickrrate has never been significant enough to skew her killrate. She had an over 75% killrate before the rework. Console players were not statistically significant back then, why would they be now?
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@Yung_Slug said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/882091#Comment_882091
Those statistics are because of console players. She's the worst killer on console, and few people want to use her on console.
Her pickrate on console has never been enough to skew her results. She was borderline nonexistent on console before the rework and her stats were good back then too.
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@Weederick said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/883004#Comment_883004
The important part is that you dont have to use the ability without cooldown in order to succeed. You can wait 3 seconds if you miss a double blink and try again. You lose half a metre in that time, so you're not unable to catch up. All it does, is affect the time efficiency of nurse. Which was too high, since every successful juke only gained you 3s until the next blink. Now survivors gain around 6s for a successful juke. Which is much more balanced for a killer as strong as nurse and a potential hit every 6s is still S-tier in DbD.
Btw i always play killers addonless, including nurse, so the change doesnt feel as impactful to me. And if i compare all the killers powerlevel, she is still at the very top.
If you want proof right now, look at every big killer streamer, they're still 4k'ing regularly with Nurse. Tru3, Zubat, OhTofu etc are all very successfull with her and still consider her the strongest.
I dont see any real argument as to why her basekit should be reverted from a balance standpoint. The only argument boils down to not having fun, which is subjective. Sucks if you cant enjoy her now, but thats not reason to balance around that.
"The important part is that you dont have to use the ability without cooldown in order to succeed. You can wait 3 seconds if you miss a double blink and try again."
First of all, it's 3.5 seconds. Secondly, that's way too much time in a chase.
"All it does, is affect the time efficiency of nurse. Which was too high, since every successful juke only gained you 3s until the next blink. Now survivors gain around 6s for a successful juke. Which is much more balanced for a killer as strong as nurse and a potential hit every 6s is still S-tier in DbD."
So why, if this BS you're spouting is true, is she now statistically the 3rd worst killer in red ranks? She used to be the best, now she's 3rd worst. What does that say?
"Btw i always play killers addonless, including nurse, so the change doesnt feel as impactful to me. And if i compare all the killers powerlevel, she is still at the very top."
Statistics, actual Nurse mains, and even Ardetha at one point disagrees with you. So it's your opinion against a lot .
"If you want proof right now, look at every big killer streamer, they're still 4k'ing regularly with Nurse. Tru3, Zubat, OhTofu etc are all very successfull with her and still consider her the strongest."
Tru3 said basekit nerf was unnecessary. So there's ur strike 1. Zubat and Tofu are not Nurse mains so there is strike 2 and 3. If you don't main Nurse, you do not have as fleshed out an opinion on her as Nurse mains. End of story. I love Monto, for example. but I cannot agree with his sentiment that Nurse is still good. ANd i make that clear.
"I dont see any real argument as to why her basekit should be reverted from a balance standpoint. The only argument boils down to not having fun, which is subjective. Sucks if you cant enjoy her now, but thats not reason to balance around that."
Here's ur argument. It boils counterplay against Nurse down to "run in a straight line". It statistically made her the 3rd worst killer in the game. You've been skirting the fact that the stats show she's weak ever since you threw your hat in this ring and now you are asking for a balance argument behind reverting the nerf? Ur laughable.
Laughable and not genuine. Get out of this argument if you aren't gonna even try.
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@Weederick said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/882622#Comment_882622
You spam the blink whenever its ready, just like the old tinkerer instasaw billys, and hope for a lucky hit. If Billy gets a 3s cooldown, it would mostly affect instasaw spamming. You know, chainsaw from 5m away, miss, chainsaw from 5m away, miss, .... Stupid unskilled gameplay.
That's a stupid strategy. The difference between Billy and Nurse is that Billy is a 115 killer without his power who can brute force a chase. Nurse literally cannot. It is literally impossible for her to brute force a chase. Her movement speed is too low, it's lower than a survivor. She cannot catch a survivor or apply map pressure without her power. You HAVE to "spam" blinks with Nurse or else you lose. You want proof? Play No blink Nurse with no MS perks or addons and tell me how it feels. Suddenly You'll be itching at that secondary power button or begging the survivor stays within perfect LOS for bloodlust to kick in.
@Weederick said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/882708#Comment_882708
What part dont you understand? Its a simple message
What part do YOU not understand here? Nurse isn't a 110 or 115 killer. She's a ######### 96 killer. She CANT refuse to use her power. Limiting it artificially has ruined the fun of playing her and the community and statistics have shown it. BHVR is holding out hope that people like you sit here and continue peddling the "she's still OP narrative" until Nurse mains and people against the nerf finally shut up so they can continue ignoring her, and it's not gonna happen. It's like I've been saying since this rework came out. It's a lazy mess of ######### that BHVR gave no thought to and it's ######### insulting that they think this community is stupid enough to accept it. And only people who are up their own ass with ignorance is gonna defend it.
If Nurse is such a good killer let me see you prove it. Stream yourself playing only addon-less Nurse and get to R1 without a single "entity displeased".
Seriously I need an answer here @Peanits @not_Queen Stop hiding and say something. Why do you refuse to address any real criticism of this rework. Is it bc you're afraid that you're gonna get called out on it or do you honestly think this lazy mess of a rework is the best the guys who brought us the new Freddy can come up with.
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@Mr_K said:
Spamming blinks. How do you spam blinks as a two blink Nurse again? What a stupid narrative that I never heard before her addon rework details were announced.
Can't wait for the spamming chainsaws narrative after the Billy rework.
THANK YOU. I'm sick of the "if you need to spam blinks ur a bad Nurse" like okay first of all you can't NOT spam blinks with Nurse. And second, 2 blinks is not spam.
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@Stornt said:
I actually enjoy playing nurse now more than ever. Her power takes much more consideration than just spamming blinks left and right. Running her without add-ons is more of a challenge now than it used to be, but I'm open to it and still consistently 4k at rank 3 every time I play her, even without ruin. But I can see how it can be frustrating to play, you just gotta adapt to the changes and make the best of them!
"you just gotta adapt".
That's not what it's about dude. If you're having fun with new Nurse then you were bad at old Nurse. So basically...
Hi Otzdarva. nice to see you on my post. Do me a favor and stop peddling false narratives.
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@madds said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/868025#Comment_868025
Yeah, you'll have to find a new killer. You can keep complaining, but it's not gonna change much. The devs gutted Legion and have barely done anything good for the killer since, and despite the overwhelming negative feedback, that's likely not gonna change. Nurse is still getting consistent results at her best, so they're not gonna touch her. I will agree they need to try again with a lot of her addons, they played it too safe and went with things that wouldn't lead to another 5 blink or omega blink situation.
Increasing the fatigue of blinks would feel way more artificial. No one wants to be forced to stare at a 75% black screen for 4 seconds because they whiffed a hit. At least the current recharge penalty allows players to get a good eye on where the survivors went to make a second attempt at their strike. Increasing the fatigue would also make chases end even more often than they already do, minimizing point value for both survivor and killer.
Also...
most people who tried PTB Nurse said she was clunky, unfun, and needed the base changes removed, the devs ignored all the feedback and pushed it live anyway, and as such here we are.
Look, man, I understand the frustration, but I personally can't believe that those of you screaming to the sky about it are the majority. I only see people complaining about it here on the forums, and the people on these forums have some pretty wild opinions that circulate among each other and don't really change for any reason.
At the end of the day, things are only gonna change if Nurse starts severely underperforming at her highest level of play, or if her play rate drops to a ridiculously low number. It may suck for you and other Nurse players, but that's the way the cookie crumbles.
I don't really see the people in this thread changing the way they are all looking at the situation, so I'm probably gonna stop paying attention to this thread from here on. I hope you can continue to enjoy the game with another killer, or the devs can reach some kind of middleground that makes everybody happy. Cheers.
Ok hold up.
"You can keep complaining, but it's not gonna change much."
Actually it probably will. Devs have said they don't balance on stats alone (but they did justify saying Spirit is getting nerfed by saying she's doing too well statistically even tho she wasn't but whatever). And Almo has said complaints draw attention. Complaining is how you get the devs to focus on something. That's how they got their attention on Spirit, that's how Plague got nerfed coming off the PTB and how Demo got buffed coming off the PTB. So this statement is just wrong.
"The devs gutted Legion and have barely done anything good for the killer since, and despite the overwhelming negative feedback, that's likely not gonna change. Nurse is still getting consistent results at her best, so they're not gonna touch her. I will agree they need to try again with a lot of her addons, they played it too safe and went with things that wouldn't lead to another 5 blink or omega blink situation."
Yes the devs ate Legion alive, and even I have been pissed with BHVR for it. The Legion changes were the same thing that they did with Nurse. it was a lazy amalgamation of nerfs and addon changes aimed at appeasement. I have been in favor of fixing Legion since the rework. The devs took another swing at him with this patch (which arguably is another nerf so yeah definitely stay pissed at them for it). But the whole point of mistakes like the ones they made with Freddy and Legion was supposed to be so they don't do it again. Not so they can repeat it ad infintum and never learn. They were supposed to learn to not do something like this with Nurse. They even said "we will not be blindly swinging the nerf hammer at Nurse. We will be taking very measured steps on how to change her."
As for her addons, you mention that you think they played it too safe with some. I think you are right in the sense of her red addons especially feel so safe that they border on lazy design. (Matchbox should make her a 110 killer and Bookmark should not have the LOS penalty. Waiting 6 seconds after a 3 second fatigue [9 seconds total] for 3 blinks is fine). But I'd be fine with ignoring her addons. Many of them would be so much better if they reverted the basekit nerf. And that is the focal point of Nurse mains' frustrations with the changes. We don't care about the addons. None of us are on Reddit, these forums, the Steam forums, Facebook, Twitter, or any social media platform you can think of saying "woe is me my omegablink is gone" or "whatever will I do without 5 blinks". Nurse mains, ever since the rework, have been complaining "this basekit nerf is unfun. We don't care if she's still strong we care that she's fun". And now the stats even show that she isn't even fkn strong anymore. She's unfun. She's weak. And BHVR insists on wanting to wait and see if she's still good.
"Increasing the fatigue of blinks would feel way more artificial. No one wants to be forced to stare at a 75% black screen for 4 seconds because they whiffed a hit."
You don't even need to increase the duration. You can make the screen darker. You can remove the head wobble (the argument that her fatigue causes motion sickness is a giant truckload of equivocating bullshit by the way. I can't even stare at a book without wanting to vomit if I'm in a car or on a plane, and I have never gotten motion sickness playing Nurse but gotta appease everyone). You can completely freeze her during her fatigue. You can make sounds even harder to hear. You don't need to increase base fatigue time or even the scaling. You can do a lot of stuff to give survivors a more tangible window to escape Nurse without screwing with Muscle memory or making Nurse players feel more helpless.
"At least the current recharge penalty allows players to get a good eye on where the survivors went to make a second attempt at their strike."
Except it doesn't do that. All it does is create this awkward moment where Nurse just stares at a survivor and they have way too much time to escape her. Currently survivors can make way too many mistakes against Nurse and walk away with no penalty. That's not indicative of a strong killer.
"Look, man, I understand the frustration, but I personally can't believe that those of you screaming to the sky about it are the majority. I only see people complaining about it here on the forums, and the people on these forums have some pretty wild opinions that circulate among each other and don't really change for any reason."
If we're getting into that, then it isn't just here. On reddit you have some people finally coming to their survivor main senses. IIRC the Steam forums were pretty steamed with the rework. There was a lot of negative feedback about this rework. Over 3 pages of nothing but "I don't like the Nurse changes" pertaining to the basekit nerf.
"At the end of the day, things are only gonna change if Nurse starts severely underperforming at her highest level of play, or if her play rate drops to a ridiculously low number. It may suck for you and other Nurse players, but that's the way the cookie crumbles."
Except that's the problem. What you are describing that would entice BHVR to change Nurse is EXACTLY what's happening. Her red rank pickrate is nowhere near top 5. Her killrate is the 3rd WORST. NURSE IS UNDERPERFORMING AND BHVR SAID THEY WONT DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT.
"I don't really see the people in this thread changing the way they are all looking at the situation, so I'm probably gonna stop paying attention to this thread from here on. I hope you can continue to enjoy the game with another killer, or the devs can reach some kind of middleground that makes everybody happy. Cheers."
It's not on this community to adapt to an unfun mechanic, killer, or survivor ability in the game. It's on the devs to make it fun.
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@UlvenDagoth said:
Daily Reminder to FIX LEGION AND REWORK THEM SO THERE POWER ISN'T A PUNISHMENT! Also REMOVE DEEP WOUND FROM THE POWER AND REPLACE IT WITH SOMETHING BETTER! Trust me it will be SO much easier to balance.
I'm with it. I'll back you up if you make ur own post pressing the devs for a change.
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@Helevetin_nopee said:
Shes still the strongest killer in the game, I dont know why you're complaining. Only thing that should be changed is some of her addons, that are ridiculous and useless
Statistically Nurse is now one of the weakest red rank killers in the game.
Both her use rate and kill rate are among the lowest.
This forum also exploded when the rework was announced and Nurse mains almost as a whole came out against these changes.
nurse mains hate the rework and the stats say she’s weak, what more do you need.
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Nurse and Doc. Plague and Spirit. Doc and Freddy.
Nurse+Doc: Doc would be able to reveal survivors for Nurse to go chase down and kill and he can slow down gen progress.
Plague+Spirit: Plagoo gets them all broken and coughing and Spirit phases at them like a heat seeking missile.
Doc+Freddy: Forever Freddy+Impossible skillchecks=5 hour long game.
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@Omans said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/872064#Comment_872064
Way too much meandering to reply to. I'll reply to your last question: yes, I like these changes for the exact reason you said. You said you didn't have to play optimally at rank 1 (I assume?) as nurse and were still able to perform very well consistently. That is something I strongly believe shouldn't be possible.
The thing that nurse mains seem to gloss over is that literally every killer can win very easily against survivors who aren't the best, whether those killers use addons or not. If I were to play against an average purple survivor rank team I would win every single game with any killer. But, when you start facing the really good survivors, you have to play optimally. They are playing optimally. They are doing those gens as fast as they can. Why should you, as a basekit killer, be able to keep up with players of equal skill to you when you aren't playing optimally? Is that really balance to you?
I strongly, strongly believe that when you are at the top ranks of any game, you have to play optimally against the other top players. Not needing to do that as nurse was why nurse was so hated by so many people. And that's why so many people are happy with how nurse is now.
If I was able to perform as well as basekit nurse was able to with my huntress (not using addons) I would be so disappointed with the state of balance. I would welcome a nerf to huntress. I want this game as close to balanced as an asymmetrical game can be (which is why it is frustrating that the obvious biggest issue in the game - the maps - isn't getting as much attention as it should).
Oh, and please stop putting words I absolutely did not say in my mouth.
This is another one of those echo chamber situations. Even R1 streamers that hated Nurse have admitted that Old nurse needed addons to constantly tear down optimal SWF groups. She was able to contend with them without addons when the SWFs weren’t playing optimally.
old Nurse didn’t need addons to be viable. She needed them to be overly viable. New Nurse, this pathetic bedsheet of a killer, needs addons to be viable at all. It’s ######### laughable that anyone wants to argue with R1 Nurse mains about whether or not she is still viable.
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@Cymer said:
The Hag was the reason I initially picked up the game and ever since she is my most beloved killer.
She has a very strategical playstyle and cannot simply run down the survivors like a hillbilly. (good hillbilly still needs skill and his chainsaw jumps, curves and flicks are amazing to pull off!)
You need to lay out your web, understand how the survivors will react and lure them into your web.
That's not everyone's favorite playstyle, plus she needs some set up time.
I do admit Hag is one of the most galaxy brain killers in the game. From an outside perspective it's honestly very entertaining to watch Hag gameplay. The mindgames and strategy is admirable.
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@ScottJund said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/867001#Comment_867001
damn I didn't know every single streamer is a survivor man. I learned something about myself today.
Given how you blatantly mischaracterized Tru3 when he was giving advice on how to counter Spirit I'd say ur Rhetoric is close enough to being a survivor main.
It's okay. I used to be one too. Then I woke up.
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@Bravo0413 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/868607#Comment_868607
The team confirmed that base kit changes were coming on stream... if changes are coming to the base kit of one of the OG's and favorite, bhvr will announce em... Doc should be next... the list from the Q&A shows Doc, chainsaw killers and then Mikey
They said basekit changes will be "minimal' and if I remember correctly they also said they will be "very calculated and measured" in their changes.
Sloppily throwing on an extra cooldown to the same power, calling it a day, and now refusing to acknowledge what your rework did statistically isn't calculated or measured. It's lazy and disrespectful to the people who had faith they would keep their word on this rework.
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@UncannyLuck said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/867897#Comment_867897
"Among the lowest"
She's picked more than nearly half the cast (7 killers are picked less than her at red ranks)
"kill rate is among the lowest"
By a kill every 5 rounds, compared to the average.
By the way you're measuring, even if she had her kill rate at 72% like it previously was it'd still be 'among the lowest' since it'd only be better than 8/17 killers.
"she's picked more than nearly half the cast"
10 killers see more play than her at red ranks. Also her pickrate, if you look at the graph, borderline overlaps with Clown and Demogorgon. You are just as likely to find a red rank Nurse as you are to find a red rank Demogorgon. Think about that.
"By a kill every 5 rounds, compared to the average.
"By the way you're measuring, even if she had her kill rate at 72% like it previously was it'd still be 'among the lowest' since it'd only be better than 8/17 killers."
Dude I will bet like a solid $50 that you are probably one of the people who thought the idea that Clown could get more than a 2K at red rank is inconceivable. Yet when these stats come out that show he averages more than that, there isn't talk of "wow Clown isn't as weak as we thought he was". No in fact people are like "wow Clown is statistically the worst killer in the game".
Guess what? Nurse barely outperforms him. Nurse isn't the strongest killer in the game if she is barely beating out the literal weakest.
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@Bravo0413 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/866734#Comment_866734
No... the team actually sees Billy as the balance standard for the killers. The only thing that's going to happen to Billy is his addons will be updated.
They said the Nurse will get her addons updated.
We all know what "addon update" means now lol.
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@DwightOP said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/866478#Comment_866478
Small change btw. Nurse still strongest killer in the game btw.
Yeah it's really pathetic, seems like all the feedback of the nurse mains were legit and right.
The sad thing and most infuriating thing is that instead of acknowledging that she is barely better than Clown and Demo, all we get is the same equivocating BS that Legion mains were fed.
Except I think Nurse mains are gonna have to wait a couple decades before they ever decide she's worth addressing.
Honestly I don't know what the devs think a successful rework looks like. Freddy was a successful rework. In fact I'd say with these stats you could make an argument he was too successful. Nurse was an abject dumpster fire of a rework. Nurse mains hate it and think it's unfun, the stats show it hurt her like a ton of bricks.
Honestly, what more does BHVR need? Does Nurse herself need to come flying out of the screen and Mori Peanits in front of the dev team to convince them she needs help?
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@Monlyth said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/867512#Comment_867512
They added the cooldown mechanic because she's able to teleport to a survivor, thus bypassing all of their normal defenses in a chase including walls, windows and pallets. An ability that powerful can only be balanced if it comes with a drawback that reads "If you screw up, you lose the chase".
Nurse's chase times are easily the shortest in the game. She can down even the best survivors in seconds, despite the cooldown. Your comparison is flawed; Nurse's blinks are the equivalent of a survivor ability that reads "After hitting two tremendously difficult skill checks, instantly repair a generator to completion".
She still has a kill-rate of more than 60% in red ranks, so I'd say that she's still quite capable of defeating 4 good survivors.
A 60% killrate is a 2K on average. Your killrate per match is either 0/25/50/75/100% of the survivors.
Nurse's killrate is statistically one of the worst in the game for red ranks. Where the best Nurse players lie. BHVR says her killrate is climbing back up, but we can't be sure of that. All I have been getting from the devs is the same equivocating responses that roughly translate to "We don't care enough about this issue to monitor it but if we say that you'll get pissed so here's this BS statement we're gonna give you that is contradictory to what we've done previously".
The only killer she out-performs is Demogorgon and Clown. I think that is very telling regarding this rework, and that very telling message is that it was a failure.
@Deadeye said:
@BunnyTheHutt to your coment to Peanits not answering any questions. Actually it shows that there are a lot of questions based on the 3 screenshots and excluding everything else. Just think a step further pls.
@DarKStaR350z I think that is what Peanits actually wanted to point out. These are just plain numbers and "a bunch of factors" influences it. Not sure if you request a 4h presentation in an auditorium to go through all the factors that are to be noticed, but I'm pretty sure the obvious ones you just mentioned they are aware of.
@MrsPiggyIsSoSneaky You wonder why BHVR might answer like that to specific posts? Because many of these are insulting, don't see the whole picture, are super subjective and not constructive at all. My point of view, I would answer the same way to a post like this.
@Sluzzy Streamers are survivor mains? What about HybridPanda? And Freddy is the strongest killer because he has an easy learning curve. No slowdown on slowdown traps or nearly uncounterable fake pallets and teleport. That's an easy to use basekit on a fast killer.
@PickCollins I really feel the need to list some points on your posts, because several of them are simply wrong.
Your statements based on three screenshots are hilarious. These statistics contain people playing for dailies, different platforms and across all ranks. You have basically no idea of statistics, when this rough information makes you judge about killers. Make a new chart that shows clown killrates of players that played him 10 hours, 100 hours or 500 hours. You might rethink your statement to be an assumption.
Your conclusion to deadly killer maps just considered the size. How about the lack of LOS? Not talking about that and in my opinion the far more relevant thing. Also Haddonfield is a small map, but you don't mention size here.
Then you say "The ONLY logic behind hag's low pickrate is that people don't enjoy her playstyle". I would like to see your exclusion process to determine there may be no other reasons. I'd rather guess you just had no other ideas in mind at that moment.
You are relating over performance to pickrate or killrate: "If Spirit was overperforming on a macro scale, then it had to have been her pickrate or killrate". Because this is the only info you got at the moment? How about average chase time being too short? No info about that but most likely a thing that can justify an over performance. Again a rough quick shot here.
"A killer that I *pronounce: 'I'* consider not viable is a killer who isn't able to reliably 3K on average" The game should be around a 2K on average, which you call a draw. So all your assumptions are based on a different view from what the game should be, apparently. And that the ranking system is far away from perfect is known. But a 2K is still not a loss, a 2K can be up to 10 hooks which is definitely a PIP. And you forget that "average" is the medan, there are deviations to this. If you perform better regularly, you rank up until you reach the rank you should stay at. Being a "rank 3" means, on average you get a safety pip once you reached rank 3, sometimes +1 sometimes -1. That's what ranking systems should do. Being a red rank doesn't mean you 4K every game.
Regarding nurse, you keep repeating that she is weak at red ranks. Simply wrong, you read the wrong chart. It was answered already, just to make sure: She is harder on console and the first chart contains all ranks and platforms. Nurse on PC red ranks has 65% kill rate wich is 2.6 average per game. That IS powerful.
You say "only reddit showed some postive nurse feedback which is a survivor sided environment". Well, with that you agree to what has been said. Survivors give positive feedback, killers give negative feedback. Is reddit less valid so you can claim negative feedback was heavier?
And regarding "nurse mains negative feedback should be enough to reconsider". Well, with that you point into the direction that you critisised yourself. Who yells loudest outplays the stats.
The Hag statement I had made was taking into context her low popularity despite her high killrate. Many top level players rate Hag as a very strong killer who is just short of being one of the best killers in the game. I had said "the only reason" because I can't think of any reason behind her low popularity besides her playstyle simply not being a fun playstyle. Statistically she performs well, but she isn't a very popular killer.
Also I am fully aware of the graph that puts Nurse as the only killer with a sub 50% killrate. That's why I did not use it. There is another graphic that has the statistics for killers in red ranks. I used that for my analysis. And that graph very clearly states the only killers Nurse is outperforming statistically are Demogorgon and Clown. I understand Nurse is a controversial killer, so any change that doesn't instantly dumpster her into the F tier is gonna be seen as "not enough" to limit her from being the best. But let me ask you to imagine being in my shoes.
You grind, hundreds upon hundreds into thousands of hours to learn Nurse and get to R1 with her. Sympathetic to the addon rework becuase you knew it was necessary, only for an extra basekit nerf that a VERY small minority of people wanted. Now imagine the time it takes to adjust thousands of hours of muscle memory for the change. I know I constantly get the "if you spam blinks ur a bad Nurse" but that's the thing. You can't NOT spam blinks. You need them else you have map pressure inferior to Clown, statistically the weakest killer in the game.
Does that not at all make you rethink the "she's the best killer still" statement. Nurse mains say she isn't. The stats, which do not lie, say she isn't. What more do you need? Do you need Nurse herself to come flying out of the screen to grab you by the throat and scream "buff me you pieces of #########"?
Honestly I don't understand what you are trying to accomplish. The most vocal Survivor opinions about Nurse was always "I can't loop. OP", and BHVR has even said complaints about something will draw attention to it. Complaints about Nurse drew attention to her. But what were those complaints? They were Omegablink and 3/4/5 Blinks. Barely ever were survivors saying "Nurse just beat us with no addons? Damn Nurse is so broken and unfair there's no counterplay!", and that was because that statement is false.
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@Peanits said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/866475#Comment_866475
Not in the near future, at least. We want to see what kind of effect this has first and people are still adjusting.
@Peanits said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/866428#Comment_866428
Again, to repeat the line from the post: "Please keep in mind that numbers are not everything; there are a whole bunch of factors that could influence these numbers."
You should not draw conclusions from those statistics alone. Her pick rate is on the lower end largely due to the fact that she's not played very frequently on console. The graphs shown (aside from the Nurse-PC specific one) are all platforms. We are working on increasing the range of sensitivity for controllers which should make her a little more inviting for console players.
As far as PC specifically goes, she is still picked fairly often (and performing well above the 50% expectation, climbing back up each day as people adjust).
You guys admit you don't balance around stats alone.
She's not statistically the worst, but you guys spent the entire PTB flat out ignoring all of the feedback people gave you about this change not being fun, feeling unfair, and how Nurse is no longer a fun killer to play as.
So you'll have to forgive me if when you say "we want to see what kind of effect this has first", I hear "we aren't doing ######### sorry you aren't having fun but survivor fun matters more"
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@Uxoricide said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/866840#Comment_866840
@Mister_Holdout it got confirmed in a Legions thread by devs that they won't make fatigue longer because some people get motion sickness by it :/ I do agree that something should be done to make her more fun again though...
That's an odd reason behind it. Besides if it's that big of a concern they can just remove the head wobble during her fatigue.
I get motion sickness very easily yet I never ever have felt queasy playing Nurse.
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@Uxoricide said:
@PickCollins here's the reply from Peanits https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/866488#Comment_866488
I know. That was my post he commented on lol. This post was in development before that response came in
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@Ghoste said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/280/NQDHCONUGZGS.jpg
In regards to the Nurse, she still has a 65% kill rate in red ranks. So if you're a skilled Nurse, these stats prove you'll still do well.
Face it, playing Nurse before the nerf was practically a free win. Now you actually have to work for it.
That is in line with her killrate on the graph I was analyzing for this post. A 65% killrate means a 35% escape rate. That's below almost every killer in the game at red ranks save for Demogorgon and Clown.
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@TheHourMan said:
I have a question for OP; what percent killrate would you consider to be viable if you are basing viability on how the community performs with them in red ranks?
I honestly don't know. For me, "viability" means "able to win", which means a killer should be able to 3-4K consistently in the hands of a good killer.
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@Marcus said:
Peanits just confirmed that Nurse won't get changes soon. So please come back in 2025.
2030 sounds like a more accurate timeframe lol.
Yeah that was my post he said that on.
Honestly I'm heartbroken. Oh well. I still gotta finish my Fire Emblem 3 houses playthroughs and theres a new champ coming to League of Legends soon so I've got more than DBD to play.
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@Haku said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/107254/according-to-bhvrs-own-stats
Actually you are wrong about the map - it is Rotten Fields. But while we are on that you mentioned BL would you also ask since BL was part of that map being actully strong and that perk being changed now, are they going to consider changing Haddonfield to be friendly to non BL users too ?
That is correct, I mistakenly read the percentages for the safest maps incorrectly.
As for Haddonfield, the problems around the map extend outside of Balanced Landing, BL just unlocked the maps full potential for survivors.
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@Venom368 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/107254/according-to-bhvrs-own-stats
Just a couple of comments based on your questions you listed at the end:
The feedback from the Nurse changes has been overwhelmingly negative from Nurse players. It has been overwhelmingly positive from everybody else. I feel like a killer with the ability to avoid many of the games mechanics, that all other killers have to abide by, should have an extremely high skill ceiling and be punished heavily for mistakes.
If the majority of the community feels that when they play against a killer, they are just going to die no matter what they do, I think that killer should be very punishing to make mistakes with.
The hag is an extremely strong killer. And it's mostly due to her ability to camp. And it has to do with people not liking that playstyle. I think having strong killers for different niches of playstyles is good for the game. I think it's impressive that BHVR has been able to make killers that play much differently that remain pretty balanced with eachother.
The amount of positive feedback that the Nurse rework received on the PTB is minimal. Most of the feedback was overwhelmingly negative. There are select few posts that were positive regarding the feedback. The only place where the Nurse rework was considered a success is on Reddit, which is known to be a more survivor sided environment due to the nature of discussions being about killers/killer perks being OP and not much about killer struggles. Any Nurse related discussion on Reddit is hit with downvotes unless it is (forgive my crude language, I'm trying to stay professional) a circlejerk about how since it's not impossible to 4k with her, she's still gigabroken and needs more nerfs.
And furthermore, if the feedback was overwhelmingly negative from Nurse mains, shouldn't that be enough to reconsider the changes? The addons were not something you see get a lot of negative attention because a lot of Nurse mains (myself included) agreed there was a change needed, and a change we got. But the basekit nerf was something people only started asking for when BHVR said people were asking for it. Basically a bandwagon that BHVR started caused the idea of her basekit being OP to be a mindset.
"If the majority of the community feels that when they play against a killer, they are just going to die no matter what they do, I think that killer should be very punishing to make mistakes with."
I agree. That's why her fatigue stun exists. To punish her for messing up her blinks and to stop her from snowballing one down into a 4K with Infectious fright.
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@Weederick said:
The performance is mostly based on the skillfloor. Easy characters perform very well and hard ones perform badly. Freddy and Billy get a lot of value with their easy to use mobility. Spirit replaces the hard chase mechanics with hearing. Thus an average player performs well with them. Nurse, Huntress and Clown have the lowest killrate due to them beeing skillbased killers. Most players dont have great aim to make them work.
If this was general population of the game I'd be fine with that logic but this is red rank. This is where the best players lie. This is where the players have "great aim to make them work"
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@Fibijean said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/866303#Comment_866303
Poor Peanits. How is it his fault? He wasn't even the one who said it D:
Yeah I don't think Peanits actually declared Spirit as overperforming. Regardless, too much weight was put behind the idea that Spirit was doing too well statistically. "Overperforming" means a killer is performing too well (since "performing" means accomplishing the conditions of your role successfully, "overperforming" means going above and beyond.) . Meaning that declaring something "overperforming" means "they're doing too well".
No matter who said it, justifying the idea that Spirit needs changes with "she's overperforming" and then turning around on a post like this and saying "we do not balance on statistics alone" is either facetious, deceptive, or a product of miscommunication.