Valuetown
Valuetown
About
- Username
- Valuetown
- Joined
- Visits
- 0
- Last Active
- —
Comments
-
@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4069910#Comment_4069910
Oh rubbish. If you want to leave the game that badly then just DC. A sweaty blight running 4 slowdowns will undoubtedly be happy to take a free kill.
Not "rubbish" at all. The killer knows the survivor wants to leave because their build is either completely oppressive or designed to be miserable. Telling them to "take the DC penalty" when a killer can hold a survivor soft locked into a match if they so choose out of pure spite is definitely an opinion of all time.
-
@random1543 said:
As a mainly survivor player I'm curious why do you guys ignore them or slug them at the start of the game? Is it more of a compassionate view to give them a chance to decide to play the match normally?
Because if they do nothing but run up to you until death they should get hit with the go next prevention if they do it frequently. vs if you slug them they can get a abandon condition and leave for free if they continue to get picked up by team then slugged again.https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4069862#Comment_4069862
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4069868#Comment_4069868
It's not compassion, it is spite. These types of killers think the people who want to leave because 4 slowdown blights have already sacrificed a survivor at 5 gens are "ruining the game" and so they will hold them in the lobby to flex the fact that killer has all the power in determining who gets to stay in a match, as well as morally grandstanding. Also some killers just do it because they know they are further ruining someone's else's time, and some killer mains get enjoyment out of that.
-
@OrangeBear said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4069626#Comment_4069626
Players having preferences is not a problem. It's extremely wishful thinking to just think survivors would only dodge a select few killers. Realistically i think most people would just shop until they find the weakest killers. Your build being countered is also not a problem in the games vision. You aren't supposed to be able to go into matches with an unshakable plan. If you are that bothered by this happening, don't "put all your eggs in one basket". Don't have more than 2 flashlights dont have a full build dedicated to one interaction etc. Adapt instead of asking devs the bend the game to your will
Another thing is survivors in pre-game lobby is very small amount of information to go off of. 4 man swfs are not all the same majority of them are not good. You also have no idea of the quality of survivor items which makes a huge difference, then there's also last second switching. Allowing survivors to see the selected killer is just not balance at all. Not that balance should really be the priority in this game. It should be fun4 man swfs are not all the same majority of them are not good
Saying the quiet part out loud, yet this is what every killer player claims the opposite of when demanding nerfs from survivor.
-
@cogsturning said:
Naw this isn't it. Visible in the match details, like the plan seems to be? That's fine. But in lobby? No way. There are perks that counter specific killer abilities, and there are perks that you could choose based on your killer because some tend to use certain things that are strong on them. And everyone would dodge against a Ghoul.
For every medkit I've brought against Plague I've had survivors bring aura blocking against my aura build. Match variable are a dice role.
That being said, I don't think killers should be able to see survivors either. There'd be a lot less dodging if no one could see anyone. And you shouldn't be able to just slap on Lightborn because you see flashlights, or anti-heal becuase you see medkits.
Before the second stranger things chapter which introduced elusive, the only perk that removed aura was distortion, which was already gutted a long time ago.
If everyone dodges against the ghoul, that would probably mean the ghoul itself is an unfun character to face and should be changed.
-
@Dem34888 said:
I strongly disagree with your pov
Calm spirit as an example can counter doctor's shock therapy and static blast
Spirit - iron will
Etc
As killer you can't adjust your ability to survs
So you would be all for changing/removing lightborn as it currently stands then correct?
-
@OrangeBear said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4069487#Comment_4069487
Well it's hard not to when you yourself start the discussion off with "Here is why you shouldn't listen to the stealth killer mains" considering you dont actually know what the arguments are about and what is even changing… like why would you expect people to read what you have to say when you aren't reading what others have to say?
This suggestion should not be entertained, it goes against what the game is and has been built around for nearly 10 years.Apparently things don't change after 10 years? Besides, lobby dodging is a symptom of another problem. If a killer is really that unfun or boring to play as, fix the killer. Why should 4 survivor players be subjected to a killer who is entirely unfun for them, especially when they counter a build they are running? This is a game, both sides should be fun.
Obviously adjust perks like calm spirit to not completely counter doctor. There is no way you can sit there and tell me that overperforming killers can't ever find a lobby when an obvious 4 man swf can get a lobby right now despite killers currently being able to lobby shop.
-
@OrangeBear said:
Not reading allat
Letting survivors dodge based on the killer selected will simply kill the game.
It's also not what is even happening anyway."Not reading allat"
I never understand why people log on to a forum designed for discussion to then ignore people when they are trying to have a discussion.
-
@angel_pellegrino said:
As someone who has quite a lot of hours in survivor, I can tell pretty early in a match if I'm going up against a killer who isn't on that kind of level. And I feel sorry for them if it's not an even match. I don't think, "ha ha ha terrible killer, ha ha I'm better you should uninstall." But I definitely get that vibe off my teammates. Especially when it's a match against some baby huntress and my teammates are bagging, flashlight clicking and nodding every chance they get. With the obligatory bag at the exit gates.
There Is an argument to be made that that kind of stuff is strategy. Because it gets in killer's heads and could get them flustered enough to make a mistake. While that might work on the p100 blight who never misses a hit, I question how effective it is against a killer who is missing most of their hits anyway.
I think the constant bm of baby or inexperienced killers has two effects in dbd: People just stop playing killer as much or at all or b. Killers really do "get mean" in matches, resorting to all the stuff survivors HATE to go against because they're taking bad past matches out on future matches. So it becomes this constant circle of mutual frustration. Where as killer, you're either getting stomped on by nodding, bagging, clicky survivors OR going too hardcore with a full meta load out against four pitiful solo q players who just wanted to play a regular game of dbd. And nobody ends up having that much fun.
So is this hypothetical killer a baby huntress new player like you're claiming or are they a 500+ minimum hour player with access to all the broken meta perks? You can't really make the claim that this will continue a cycle if a new player doesn't have the means to run 4 slowdown. Also obligatory "fix matchmaking" if this really matters to you that much. Nobody complains when a comp player on blight ruins the experience of newer survivors, but it's even worse for them.
-
@Atsuka_Anarchy said:
Firstly, I truly want to say that DBD has been an amazing experience for me throughout the years and that I feel will only get better as time progresses. I've been playing DBD since late 2017 and I've had to fortunate experience of enjoying this game with minimum-non existent complaints. I thank you guys for all the hard work and dedication throughout the years to making the game more interactive and entertaining. And I want to appreciate the balance team, I know there's so many threads created that's dedicated to spending time criticizing map RNG, hitbox jank, buffs, nerfs, but honestly? After the recent update regarding color selections for easier visibility and accessibility, the dev and mod teams are actually playing 4D chess while we’re all playing checkers.
The way they manage to balance the high-octane stress of Survivor with the absolute power fantasy of being a Killer is nothing short of a miracle. Every update usually feels like a love letter to the community. They actually DO listen to many niche requests. You want a buff/nerf for a specific underutilized/overutilitzed mechanic? They’re probably already coding it. The mods take great strides in keeping this community civil, which is a harder task to accomplish than looping a Nurse for five gens.
Only positive vibes and "GG WP" in the endgame chat. What are some positive things the community here appreciates whether it be the gameplay, gaining new friends in the fog, the dev team, the mod team, the updates, etc? Share your thoughts.Truly, thanks guys for keeping us safe and entertained in the fog. We are truly blessed to have such a dedicated team steering this amazing game.🌫️❤️
Taking 10 years to add basic accessibility options for players sounds more like a game of hoop and stick and not 4D chess.
-
@random1543 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4068578#Comment_4068578
Nothing is forcing players to take the penalty immediately,And I think it should force the player to take as soon as they make the dc, what is the point otherwise. I cant think of any other game that does this just delays the pently indefinitely
That is to remind you to not DC and play the current match out THEN quit the gameAnd for the casual players who may of taken weeks away from the game only to be hit with a penalty may not even remember dcing and not understand why it is their, there is not indication why it is their like "You are penalized because you dced on 24/12/2025 and now must serve your sentence"
The only thing it is punishing is people who are doing the correct thing if game is frustrating you and stop playing it, rather then trying to ready up again to play more and does nothing to actually address people who do ruin matches. these are not people who are taking days away they play all the time so clicking ready does nothing to address people to constantly ruin matches.
Edit : just wanting to add not having to click ready would punish people even more if they continue to dc after coming back. DCs are based on matches played so if someone dcs again after coming back they will be hit with even bigger timeouts rather then being reminded when they come back like "hey you have a penalty be careful"At this point, survivor is an afterthought for the devs, this latest event is proof. In almost every match, a survivor is already sacrificed with 4 gens left because every killer is either running 4 traditional slowdown and tunneling; or ruin, undying, thrill, and their favorite 4th perk. How is that supposed to be fun for anyone but the killer? Oh but killers were being "bullied" if they can't run their snoozefest 4 slowdown in the event too, prioritizing the 4k over bloodpoints in a bloodpoint farming mode.
In my opinion, they just want all the people who want a fun game for both sides to leave the game, and this is just another reason to get a long time survivor player to click uninstall.
-
@GhostRider1518 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4064029#Comment_4064029
Just make up your minds already: do you think I’m writing with AI or not? First you say I’m using ChatGPT or some other AI, but when I explained that it’s just Word’s formatting, suddenly “no one accuses me of using AI” anymore. Please make up your minds. I’ve already explained why I format this way (using Word) and why my replies are so long—read it if you want.
If your last resort in defending your arguments against mathematical facts is to accuse me of being an AI or using AI—because the text formatting annoys you—then we’ve officially reached the end of this technical discussion. What? Did ChatGPT write that too? “Yes, I confirm it, I was that ChatGPT. And yes, 2+2=5." 😁
You state: "Data is neither incorrect or correct... data is just data."
In the field of computer science, there is a fundamental concept known as GIGO, or "Garbage In, Garbage Out." If you use a defective thermometer to measure a room, the "data" exists, but it is invalid for the purpose for which it is being used. The 1/0 escape metric is a defective thermometer. It tries to measure a player's individual mechanical skill with a team-based binary outcome. The "data" collected is invalid because it is corrupted with variables outside the player's control. A bell curve constructed from invalid "data" is useless for competitive matchmaking.By admitting that the system I am referencing "was already in the game for 5+ years," you've essentially destroyed your entire case.
You are confusing a static progression ladder with a dynamic mathematical matchmaking rating system, such as Elo or MMR. The static system was flawed because it used hard-coded "brackets" and forced unnatural gameplay on players to obtain Iridescent badges. I am not asking for the return of Ranks 1 through 20. I am asking you to recognize that the games own data, its ability to correlate multiple variables and weigh them based on context, already exists in the engine BHVR chose to ignore all that rich data and take the lowest math possible: win/loss (1/0) when implementing their hidden SBMM.
If your next response is going to be another digging into how I formatted this and whether I am human, I will concede your entire argument on the 1/0 system.
And this is my only thread on this forum, because only now have I had the time, the motivation, and the boredom of playing against people who are clearly better than me. Don’t you think a bot or AI would be more likely to spam posts and comments? By the way, if this is my first post, so what? Can’t I post if I haven’t written anything since the forum started? How am I supposed to start posting on the forum if I could never write a single post because I haven’t written anything before? It’s a vicious circle, illogical, and physically impossible. Unless you have a time machine. But I would really ask you to stay on topic, because arguments like “I'm writing this for you,” “you don't have any other posts,” have absolutely no connection to this specific thread and aren't relevant to the topic. So, since “the big forum boss is letting me post,” even though this is my first and only post on this forum, should I just pack up and run?
You state: "Data is neither incorrect or correct... data is just data."
In the field of computer science, there is a fundamental concept known as GIGO, or "Garbage In, Garbage Out." If you use a defective thermometer to measure a room, the "data" exists, but it is invalid for the purpose for which it is being used. The 1/0 escape metric is a defective thermometer. It tries to measure a player's individual mechanical skill with a team-based binary outcome. The "data" collected is invalid because it is corrupted with variables outside the player's control. A bell curve constructed from invalid "data" is useless for competitive matchmaking.
What is "correct" data? Data is neither incorrect or correct (faulty measurements notwithstanding), data is just data.
So I exclude the very instance you are talking about, yet you bring it up anyway. There is no faulty data when determining if someone escaped or not. There is no "faulty thermometer" in the game's code. YOUR claim is that the data gathered does not have a high enough resolution. Those are two different things. One deals with genuine false data. One is dealing with the ambiguity. Your misunderstanding of the two is how you arrive at this conclusion.
The 1/0 escape metric is a defective thermometer. It tries to measure a player's individual mechanical skill with a team-based binary outcome. The "data" collected is invalid because it is corrupted with variables outside the player's control.
It is not a defective thermometer. You are asking a weather rock to be a calibrated, industry grade thermometer. Neither is defective. They read different resolutions of the same data.
By admitting that the system I am referencing "was already in the game for 5+ years," you've essentially destroyed your entire case.
You are confusing a static progression ladder with a dynamic mathematical matchmaking rating system, such as Elo or MMR. The static system was flawed because it used hard-coded "brackets" and forced unnatural gameplay on players to obtain Iridescent badges. I am not asking for the return of Ranks 1 through 20. I am asking you to recognize that the games own data, its ability to correlate multiple variables and weigh them based on context, already exists in the engine BHVR chose to ignore all that rich data and take the lowest math possible: win/loss (1/0) when implementing their hidden SBMM.
You are asking to apply the same (drum roll please, your favorite word is coming!) TELEMETRY data in the same exact manner as the old rank system did, which is exactly the same as the grade system for awarding pips. In the old system, a player could have died to the killer, but ranked up due to their contribution in the match. In the current system, that is no longer the case. This system was removed for a variety of reasons, all of which are only known by the dev team.
And this is my only thread on this forum, because only now have I had the time, the motivation, and the boredom of playing against people who are clearly better than me. Don’t you think a bot or AI would be more likely to spam posts and comments? By the way, if this is my first post, so what? Can’t I post if I haven’t written anything since the forum started? How am I supposed to start posting on the forum if I could never write a single post because I haven’t written anything before? It’s a vicious circle, illogical, and physically impossible. Unless you have a time machine. But I would really ask you to stay on topic, because arguments like “I'm writing this for you,” “you don't have any other posts,” have absolutely no connection to this specific thread and aren't relevant to the topic. So, since “the big forum boss is letting me post,” even though this is my first and only post on this forum, should I just pack up and run?
I genuinely don't know how you meander through that thought process while also having the hubris (it's more than just a dbd perk name) to simultaneously say this in the thread:
They wouldn’t understand the mental shortcuts. An example? I asked a question in a certain Facebook group about DBD. I wrote briefly, concisely, and to the point. The result? People completely misunderstood what I was getting at and interpreted the topic literally the opposite of what I wrote and what I meant.
How is it that you are not addressing the main point of that comment (the fact that the majority of your posts read as AI generated in nature), but rather addressing a supplemental point (which doesn't clear the idea that your posts may be AI generated, it is simply a potential point of evidence) in a way that completely misses the point?
-
@GhostRider1518 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4063764#Comment_4063764
- The AI Comment Clarification
Ah, I see. You weren’t asking an AI for the answer; you were just making another sarcastic ad hominem about my writing style. Understood. Let’s move past the personal jabs and get back to the actual game data.
- The "Bell Curve" Fallacy (Standard Deviation)
You stated: "BHVR knows what 'high MMR' is based on their quarterly stat drops; implying that there is in fact a bell curve to which a standard deviation would apply. Sorry you are incorrect."
You are mistaken in assuming that the data within the curve is correct.
If I ranked 1,000 players by flipping a coin for each of them every match, I can easily tell you that the data within the curve would perfectly represent a bell curve (Normal Distribution). I can easily tell you the top 5% of that curve and call it "High Coin-Flip MMR." However, the fact that this data follows a bell curve does not mean that the data itself is correct.
The fact that BHVR can plot their 1/0 Escapes/Kills onto a graph and find a median does not mean that the data within the curve is correct. A bell curve of corrupted data is still corrupted data.
- The "Unhook Farming" Scenario
You stated that rewarding Safe Unhooks would cause bad players to farm hooked survivors instead of doing generators while the Killer camps.
You're completely disregarding the way in which modern telemetry handles such concepts as Proximity and Negative Constraints.
If the Killer is 'Face Camping' the survivor, a proper performance system (and indeed the current system in DbD itself, the Emblem system), will take this into consideration. An unhook that immediately results in the death of the survivor will be recorded as an Unsafe Unhook, resulting in a significant penalty against the Killer attempting the unhook. The system will also take into consideration the Killer's Proximity to the Hook in the game world. The dynamic MMR system will reward players for pushing generators while the Killer is locked in place at the Hook. You're essentially arguing against the basic system that I'm not advocating for in the first place.
- The Retreat
"I'm not going to explain the situation again... so I'm going to save myself the time."
I'll admit that you're right regarding the Billy/Pallet example. The moment the actual micro-mechanics of the system come up in the form of how the telemetry system itself logs events, you immediately back down.
- On Being "Condescending"
I'm not here to make you feel condescending towards you or any other individual reading this article. I'm here to have a debate regarding the architecture of the matchmaking system in Dead by Daylight. I write in such a detailed manner because that's the only way in which I can effectively discuss the data science that goes into the system. If you take the mathematical inconsistencies in the algorithm as condescending towards you personally, then I apologize for that. But I'll certainly not dumb down the data science in order to make the current 1/0 MMR system look more favorable than it really is.
Ah, I see. You weren’t asking an AI for the answer; you were just making another sarcastic ad hominem about my writing style. Understood. Let’s move past the personal jabs and get back to the actual game data.
This reads identically to a Chat GPT response after reprompting it for a different answer.
You are mistaken in assuming that the data within the curve is correct.
What is "correct" data? Data is neither incorrect or correct (faulty measurements notwithstanding), data is just data. The application of data is what matters. The data may not be getting "correctly" applied to YOUR liking, but there will always be a bell curve. You just don't like the bell curve it represents.
You stated that rewarding Safe Unhooks would cause bad players to farm hooked survivors instead of doing generators while the Killer camps.
You're completely disregarding the way in which modern telemetry handles such concepts as Proximity and Negative Constraints.
If the Killer is 'Face Camping' the survivor, a proper performance system (and indeed the current system in DbD itself, the Emblem system), will take this into consideration. An unhook that immediately results in the death of the survivor will be recorded as an Unsafe Unhook, resulting in a significant penalty against the Killer attempting the unhook. The system will also take into consideration the Killer's Proximity to the Hook in the game world. The dynamic MMR system will reward players for pushing generators while the Killer is locked in place at the Hook. You're essentially arguing against the basic system that I'm not advocating for in the first place.
I'll admit that you're right regarding the Billy/Pallet example. The moment the actual micro-mechanics of the system come up in the form of how the telemetry system itself logs events, you immediately back down.
You realize the system that you are asking for was the previous rank system right? It got removed for reasons I already stated. Each emblem contributed to your pips, and if you had enough pips you would rank up. If you didn't get a safety pip, you would rank down. This system did not work to the dev's liking, so they changed it. You don't have to like the new system, but to pretend that the system you are asking for wasn't already in the game for 5+ years is just factually incorrect.
I'm not here to make you feel condescending towards you or any other individual reading this article. I'm here to have a debate regarding the architecture of the matchmaking system in Dead by Daylight. I write in such a detailed manner because that's the only way in which I can effectively discuss the data science that goes into the system. If you take the mathematical inconsistencies in the algorithm as condescending towards you personally, then I apologize for that. But I'll certainly not dumb down the data science in order to make the current 1/0 MMR system look more favorable than it really is.
Again, this reads exactly like Chat GPT apologizing to you for not being able to tell you that 2+2=5. If this is one giant Turing Test, I think now would be the time to call this thread (your only thread on your forum account by the way) a failure of the Turing Test.
- The AI Comment Clarification
-
@GhostRider1518 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4063740#Comment_4063740
You are continuing to shift the goalposts and, in the process, introducing some truly fascinating mathematical theories. Let's address them systematically.1. The 1/4th Math (A Logical Breakdown)You stated: "Based on just raw ratios alone, a killer player can be on par with one survivor player with only 1/4th the hours... these survivors have the equivalent killer knowledge of a 137 hour killer player."This is mathematically and logically absurd. Experience is not a shared pizza that gets divided by the number of players in a lobby. If a Survivor has 550 hours of playtime, their brain has processed 550 hours of map layouts, looping mechanics, killer powers, and tile RNG. You do not calculate $\frac{550}{4} = 137.5$ simply because it is a 1v4 game. By that logic, a CS:GO player with 1000 hours actually only has 200 hours of experience because it's a 5v5 game. That is not how human learning or data science works.2. The Billy Riddle Answered (Input vs. Outcome)You claim I dodged your scenario about pre-dropping a pallet against a Hillbilly to secure a safe unhook. I didn't dodge it; you simply don't understand how telemetry scores events.You are obsessing over the micro-input (dropping the wood) rather than the macro-outcome. If Ace pre-drops that pallet, blocks the Billy, and safely unhooks Mikaela, the system does not need to calculate the philosophical intent of the pallet drop. The system awards Ace a massive telemetry spike for the Safe Unhook and Protection Hit/Distraction.Good algorithms do not need to score every micro-action; they score the resulting game state. The pre-drop enabled the safe unhook. The safe unhook generates the MMR value. It is incredibly simple.3. "Stats in a Vacuum" and Dynamic WeightingYou argue that doing a generator while the team is slugged shouldn't award MMR, claiming this proves my system would be gamed.Again, you are ignoring how modern algorithms function. Telemetry is dynamically weighted based on concurrent game states. If the system logs that 2 teammates are in the Dying state, the algorithm dynamically applies a negative multiplier to Objective points and a massive positive multiplier to Altruism/Healing points.Ironically, Dead by Daylight already does this. If you work on a generator while someone is on a hook, your Lightbringer emblem points are actively penalized. The engine already knows how to contextualize stats outside of a vacuum.4. The Standard Deviation ParadoxYou claim the current system's sole purpose is to keep players "within one standard deviation of their loosely assigned skill level."In statistics, you cannot calculate a valid standard deviation ($\sigma$) if your baseline metric for measuring the data is fundamentally flawed. If your metric (1/0 Escape/Die) frequently assigns a negative value to the best player in the match and a positive value to a player hiding in a locker, then your entire dataset is corrupted. You are calculating the standard deviation of garbage data. Grouping players based on corrupted data does not create "competitive matches"; it creates random matches disguised by a hidden number.
So you’re accusing me of using AI to write, and then you turn to ChatGPT yourself and use it as an argument? I’d like to point out that ChatGPT and other AI can generate inaccurate results, even when they cite sources. ChatGPT isn’t really a good example either, because if I’m not mistaken, its knowledge base is current as of 2021 or a little later. And there have been changes in DBD since then.
So you’re accusing me of using AI to write, and then you turn to ChatGPT yourself and use it as an argument?
?????????????? I understand that communication over text can be misconstrued, but if you honestly thought that I was turning to Chat GPT to fact check you versus implying your quoted text following that line was written by AI, I'm sorry that's just way off base.
That is not how human learning or data science works.2. The Billy Riddle Answered (Input vs. Outcome)You claim I dodged your scenario about pre-dropping a pallet against a Hillbilly to secure a safe unhook. I didn't dodge it; you simply don't understand how telemetry scores events
Listen buddy, I know you love the word telemetry, and I'm not going to explain the situation again and how it's not what you're thinking, just for you to refuse to acknowledge it, so I'm going to save myself the time. Please reread my previous messages more carefully.
The system awards Ace a massive telemetry spike for the Safe Unhook and Protection Hit/Distraction.Good algorithms do not need to score every micro-action; they score the resulting game state. The pre-drop enabled the safe unhook. The safe unhook generates the MMR value.
And ultimately the bad players will now prioritize unhooking safely to boost their MMR, when a correct play would possibly letting a camped player stay on hook for 50 seconds while 3 gens are done separately.
"within one standard deviation of their loosely assigned skill level."In statistics, you cannot calculate a valid standard deviation ($\sigma$) if your baseline metric for measuring the data is fundamentally flawed.
This is clearly wrong, since BHVR knows what "high MMR" is based on their quarterly stat drops; implying that there is in fact a bell curve to which a standard deviation would apply. Sorry you are incorrect.
They wouldn’t understand the mental shortcuts. An example? I asked a question in a certain Facebook group about DBD. I wrote briefly, concisely, and to the point. The result? People completely misunderstood what I was getting at and interpreted the topic literally the opposite of what I wrote and what I meant.
There is a fine line between underexplaining and overexplaining. I don't know the particulars of your interactions, so I'm going to not comment on why things happened the way they did. Also, why are you asking about DbD on a facebook group? lol
Ultimately nobody minds if there is back and forth on a topic or even disagreeing. What people don't like is when they are condescended, patronized, downplayed, and ultimately ignored by someone who thinks a little bit of self study is going to make them a subject expert.
-
@GhostRider1518 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4063692#Comment_4063692
You are overcomplicating the entire data processing situation to an absurd degree. Also, you are misusing computer science terms to back your lazy algorithm. Let's discuss the actual situation from a computer science viewpoint without resorting to the term "fallacy."
- The Misuse of Computer Science (The "NP-Problem")
You are claiming that the calculation of player performance based on telemetry data is an "NP-Problem." This is mathematically incorrect first and foremost. An NP (Non-deterministic Polynomial) problem is a problem that has a massive combinatorial explosion. This is like calculating all the perfect moves for a game of chess.
We are asking the server to perform no such calculation. We are asking the server to perform a calculation based on the end of the game. This is a weighted calculation. This is a basic algorithm that has a time complexity of $O(N)$ to perform. Using existing variables such as chase time or gens done, applying a coefficient to these values is basic arithmetic. This is exactly how the game Valorant calculates the player's combat score. This is an NP-Problem. This is a fundamental misunderstanding of the algorithmic complexity.
- Solving your Mikaela/Ace Pallet Riddle
You asked: If Mikaela accidentally drops a pallet out of chase, and Ace picks it up later in the game, who gets the MMR? How does the system determine the intent?
The system does not determine the intent. You are asking the algorithm to read minds. This is completely unnecessary. This is how the performance system calculates the exact scenario that you are posing:
Mikaela accidentally drops a pallet out of chase. She wasted a resource. She gets 0 points and no performance bump. She continues to make these "generational macro mistakes" and loses the match. Her telemetry will be abysmal throughout the match.
Ace goes by the pallet that Mikaela dropped. He loops the Killer around it. He gains Chase Time/Boldness points for navigating map geometry correctly and being on the Killer.
The system does not need to reward Mikaela for her mistake. It just needs to reward Ace for surviving. You are trying to create a problem that event logging solves by default.
- The 80/20 Rule and "Fast Matches"
You used the 80/20 rule (Pareto principle) to argue that a 180-hour Killer was fair against a player with 550 hours each.
The 80/20 rule states that 80% of proficiency is due to 20% of the effort. In a game like DBD with 30+ maps, almost 400 perks, and Killer powers that must be used in a very specific way, a 180-hour Killer has just completed the tutorial. A player with 550 hours each has optimized their Killer's pathing and synergy.
The fact that the system prioritizes "fast queue times" above all else means that you are conceding that Dead by Daylight does not have a competitive Matchmaking Rating. It has a glorified bracket system that prioritizes fast queue times above all else. You cannot argue for the mathematical integrity of a matchmaking rating while simultaneously admitting that the system prioritizes fast queue times above all else.
Created in Word*You are overcomplicating the entire data processing situation to an absurd degree.
I am explaining to you the complicated nature of what you are asking. I'm not complicating it, the situation is complicated.
Also, you are misusing computer science terms to back your lazy algorithm.
What computer science term have I misused? I've also not written a single algorithm nor given any suggestions as to an implementation.
Let's discuss the actual situation from a computer science viewpoint without resorting to the term "fallacy."
Let's see what GPT says about this one…
The Misuse of Computer Science (The "NP-Problem")
You are claiming that the calculation of player performance based on telemetry data is an "NP-Problem." This is mathematically incorrect first and foremost. An NP (Non-deterministic Polynomial) problem is a problem that has a massive combinatorial explosion. This is like calculating all the perfect moves for a game of chess.That is exactly what the system would need for an actual meaningful MMR metric that includes nuanced plays in every match.
We are asking the server to perform no such calculation. We are asking the server to perform a calculation based on the end of the game. This is a weighted calculation. This is a basic algorithm that has a time complexity of $O(N)$ to perform. Using existing variables such as chase time or gens done, applying a coefficient to these values is basic arithmetic. This is exactly how the game Valorant calculates the player's combat score. This is an NP-Problem. This is a fundamental misunderstanding of the algorithmic complexity.
So you are indeed making the blunder of calculating stats in a vacuum, something that I and other posters have repeatedly argued is not the optimal way to calculate a weighted MMR metric for an asymmetrical game like DbD. Sticking on a generator for additional points while the rest of your team is either being slugged or on hook should award you zero MMR unless it's the last generator and maybe at least one person has adrenaline. This SIMPLE example demonstrates why taking just weighted averages is enough to game the system so that MMR is ultimately more about min-maxing the system rather than min-maxing your gameplay.
The system does not need to reward Mikaela for her mistake. It just needs to reward Ace for surviving. You are trying to create a problem that event logging solves by default.
You refused to answer my question about the Billy player's situation, where prethrowing a pallet that would award 0 points is indeed the correct and a high-level play that should award something in the MMR system. As I stated, the Mikaela predropping and Ace capitalizing versus someone prethrowing to ensure a safe unhook for both survivors looks identical to the system in regards to the pallet, but the nuance is more complicated than you are willing to concede to the system you wish were implemented.
The 80/20 rule states that 80% of proficiency is due to 20% of the effort. In a game like DBD with 30+ maps, almost 400 perks, and Killer powers that must be used in a very specific way, a 180-hour Killer has just completed the tutorial. A player with 550 hours each has optimized their Killer's pathing and synergy.
Killer is the power role. Based on just raw ratios alone, a killer player can be on par with one survivor player with only 1/4th the hours, since there are 4 survivors per match. That means in this situation, these survivors have the equivalent killer knowledge of a 137 hour killer player. All of this is moot by the way because survivors need to memorize way more in order to be on a similar power level to a killer player. There are 42+ killers that each individually need to be learned; not to mention the addons, perks, maps, etc. For a killer player, they just need to know how to use their power and understand how to loop tiles, with less of an impact on perks that early, since anything under 500 hours is tutorial mode. You are making it sound like a survivor with 500 hours is some 20k hour comp player "maximizing their killer pathing and synergy." THAT is just factually incorrect.
The fact that the system prioritizes "fast queue times" above all else means that you are conceding that Dead by Daylight does not have a competitive Matchmaking Rating. It has a glorified bracket system that prioritizes fast queue times above all else. You cannot argue for the mathematical integrity of a matchmaking rating while simultaneously admitting that the system prioritizes fast queue times above all else.
You are the only one in this entire thread claiming that the MMR system is designed for competition in the sense of winning and losing. I have only ever stated in this thread that its sole purpose is to create competitive matches, meaning players are generally within one standard deviation of their loosely assigned skill level so that genuine new players aren't being matched with people that have been playing since 2016. The only instances in which I am arguing for the alternative are for a system's replacement, which I've already discussed above.
- The Misuse of Computer Science (The "NP-Problem")
-
@GhostRider1518 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4063693#Comment_4063693
So what? Can't I just use Microsoft Word or LibreOffice for this? They're powerful, great word processors that make it easier for me to write long texts.
Nobody said you can't draft your messages in a word editor. The issue becomes when you are writing paragraphs and paragraphs and paragraphs and paragraphs every hour on the hour, for someone with, ostensibly, a decent amount of computer science knowledge that would imply at least a bachelors degree and a full time job, thus limiting the time you have to dedicate to a forum where you are complaining about a video game. To put it simply, the math ain't mathin'.
-
@GhostRider1518 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4063637#Comment_4063637
Can you please not get mad at me for writing like ChatGPT? Does the fact that I write a lot automatically mean I’m an AI? Can you stick to the topic?
@UnicornToots is talking about you creating a numbered list for a singular item like LLMs, or using spacing and newlines identical to LLMs, or using em dashes like LLMs, or creating "section headings" as titles for your points like LLMs.
-
@GhostRider1518 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4063023#Comment_4063023
Your response is a textbook example of throwing pseudo-intellectual jargon at the wall hoping something sticks. Let's dismantle the technical fallacies in your argument.
- The "Singular Equation" Fallacy
Asking me to provide the "singular equation" with perfect weights for every add-on and map tile on a forum post is a bad-faith argument. It is the equivalent of demanding I write the complete source code for a new search engine to prove that Google can be improved. We don't need access to BHVR's proprietary database to point out that if(escaped) then +MMR is fundamentally inadequate for a multi-variable environment. - Misunderstanding Data Science and "Inconsistent MMR"
You claimed: "So your MMR calculator changes and is inconsistent between matches? That is inherently an unfair system..."
This shows a fundamental misunderstanding of how dynamic variables work in matchmaking. The calculator (the algorithm) doesn't change; the input variables (your loadout) do. If I equip a Med-Kit, my potential healing output variable increases. If I use Unbreakable, my "time slugged" penalty variable is mitigated. A system that adjusts to the variables you bring into the match is the exact definition of fairness. It evaluates your performance contextualized by your tools. The current system ignores the tools entirely.
- The NP-Problem Bluff
Calling a weighted matchmaking algorithm a "Non-Deterministic Polynomial problem" is honestly embarrassing. We are not asking the server to solve the Traveling Salesperson Problem or predict protein folding. We are asking it to take existing, already-tracked telemetry data (Chase Time, Gen Progress, Safe Unhooks), apply simple algebraic coefficients, and output a composite score. This is basic linear algebra used by every competitive game on the market, not some unsolvable mathematical anomaly. - The Dropped Pallet Strawman (Nirvana Fallacy Again)
You used an extreme edge case—a Mikaela accidentally dropping a pallet that later saves an Ace—as proof that "nuance" is impossible to track.
This is the Nirvana Fallacy again. Yes, a statistical algorithm might misattribute credit in a freak, 1-in-1000 accident. But over the course of 100 matches, the Law of Large Numbers dictates that the Ace who consistently wins chases will climb, and the Mikaela who panic-drops pallets will fall. You are arguing that because a system might be wrong 1% of the time on a micro-interaction, we should settle for a system that is wrong 90% of the time on the macro-level.
- The Telemetry Paradox (Which you ignored)
You completely dodged my core question regarding Emblems and Bloodpoints.
The game already tracks the nuance you claim is impossible. The server calculates your (The game knows how many points you have in the match and what they are for) emblem by analyzing your distance to the killer, line of sight, and chase duration in real-time. It tracks your emblem by tracking safe unhooks and heals. The game engine is already doing the math. The data is already there. BHVR just refuses to pipe those existing data streams into the matchmaking logic, relying instead on a binary win/loss condition.
Your example with the pallet dropped by Mikael, which saved Ace, is completely off the mark. It's as if you haven't played the game and don't know who does what in such a situation. How does it work now? Do you know? When you drop a pallet during a chase, you get points, YOU GET THEM. If Ace uses the dropped pallet in the chase (because the killer didn't destroy it), he doesn't get points for dropping it, but for the looping time, which is slightly extended - the killer has to destroy the pallet, which gives Ace a moment. It's simple and that's it. You just have to use it. Where do you see the problem?If the server is smart enough to give me an Iridescent Evader emblem for carrying the team, it's smart enough to give me a fractional MMR bump instead of treating me like a beginner because I died on the final hook.
It's amazing how selective your technical knowledge is. On the one hand, you demand complex anti-camp and anti-tunnel systems, trusting that the server can calculate the Killer's position, chase time, and perk activation down to the centimeter and millisecond. You see your Emblems and points for ‘Pallet Stun’ or ‘Safe Hook Rescue’ on the final screen – proof that the game has full telemetry of every event in the match. But as soon as I suggest that a fraction of this already collected data be used to modify MMR, you suddenly pretend that the server is “blind” and “unable to understand the nuances.” Make up your minds: either the game engine doesn't know what's going on in the match (so let's disable Emblems and Bloodpoints), or it knows perfectly well, but the developers can't be bothered to link these variables to the player matching algorithm.
Your response is a textbook example of throwing pseudo-intellectual jargon at the wall hoping something sticks. Let's dismantle the technical fallacies in your argument
You have thrown the word "fallacy" around more than Aristotle did; but for things that aren't fallacies. Labelling things you disagree with as fallacies is not very good faith.
The "Singular Equation" Fallacy
Asking me to provide the "singular equation" with perfect weights for every add-on and map tile on a forum post is a bad-faith argument. It is the equivalent of demanding I write the complete source code for a new search engine to prove that Google can be improved. We don't need access to BHVR's proprietary database to point out that if(escaped) then +MMR is fundamentally inadequate for a multi-variable environment.What? The reason I asked you to create an equation is because despite people telling you it would be increasingly difficult to create a weighted function to accurately (within reason) assess good and bad plays someone makes in a match, you continuously say "no it's not" and then proceed to "fallacy, fallacy, fallacy" their counterclaim without actually addressing any of their valid comments.
For example:
If Dead by Daylight is just a casual party game, why did BHVR spend massive resources to implement strict Skill-Based Matchmaking (SBMM)? They explicitly removed the old casual Rank system to force a hidden, competitive MMR rating onto the entire player base.
You cannot excuse a broken competitive algorithm by claiming the game is "casual." If it's truly a casual game, BHVR should remove the MMR system entirely and let matchmaking be random. But they don't. They insist on using an MMR system, which means as paying customers, we have the right to demand that the system actually does the math correctly.
Did it ever occur to you that BHVR didn't like the fact that every 30 days, everyone's MMR would be "soft reset," so they implemented a more lax but consistent MMR system to combat that? The fact that a rank 1 killer in the previous season who hadn't played in a few days after reset could now be matched with someone of much lower skill who just received rank 8 because they were both in the purple bracket?
BHVR should remove the MMR system entirely and let matchmaking be random.
Now THIS is a bad faith argument if I've ever seen one. Let's throw the baby out with the bathwater and let 1500 win streak blights play against 2 hour Dwight and Meg players fresh out of the tutorial. Everyone here knows that there needs to be some sort of matchmaking rating value applied to accounts. You posit that "if an MMR system exists, it should work 'correctly'" whatever that means being ambiguous. The MMR system in this game is nowhere near perfect, but it was never designed to be. It was designed to minimize new player frustration and to keep wide bands of players in similar brackets to maximize fast matches. You do not have to disagree with that and you are within your right to complain, but saying "it's not right" is only based on your own interpretation of what the "right" system is for this use case; which is clearly not the same for BHVR's.
The NP-Problem Bluff
Calling a weighted matchmaking algorithm a "Non-Deterministic Polynomial problem" is honestly embarrassing. We are not asking the server to solve the Traveling Salesperson Problem or predict protein folding. We are asking it to take existing, already-tracked telemetry data (Chase Time, Gen Progress, Safe Unhooks), apply simple algebraic coefficients, and output a composite score. This is basic linear algebra used by every competitive game on the market, not some unsolvable mathematical anomaly.And as you so expertly ignored, those stats in a vacuum mean absolutely nothing. Do you know why console Mikaela players predrop pallets and run for saves the nanosecond someone gets hooked? They award bloodpoints, which directly feeds in to the emblem system. Whether or not those plays are correct is not factored into giving those points, they are given if the action is performed. You demand a system that ''does the math correctly." I don't think anyone would want a system to award someone who makes generational macro mistakes, thus the system would need to calculate many different factors (exponential factors and their overall weights if they do exist) when determining whether or not points should be awarded. That is how this problem in an NP-Problem. And before you try to claim "nirvana fallacy," I am merely stating the complexity of the problem. If you would like to implement a solution that would genuinely solve nothing but skew the actual skill level rating of players as a whole, go for it.
The Dropped Pallet Strawman (Nirvana Fallacy Again)
You used an extreme edge case—a Mikaela accidentally dropping a pallet that later saves an Ace—as proof that "nuance" is impossible to track.Firstly, this is not the nirvana fallacy nor a strawman. I'm giving you an example of the complexity the system would need to account for. Secondly, I never said this is proof that nuance is impossible to track. I asked who would be credited for it. Who would be given MMR and who would have MMR taken away and for what actions. Is MMR dynamic throughout a match or, for your envisioned system, is MMR calculated at the very end after thousands of weights are calculated? Again, you cry "fallacy, fallacy, fallacy" when all people are trying to do is interrogate your main points to see if they hold water.
Your example with the pallet dropped by Mikael, which saved Ace, is completely off the mark. It's as if you haven't played the game and don't know who does what in such a situation. How does it work now? Do you know? When you drop a pallet during a chase, you get points, YOU GET THEM. If Ace uses the dropped pallet in the chase (because the killer didn't destroy it), he doesn't get points for dropping it, but for the looping time, which is slightly extended - the killer has to destroy the pallet, which gives Ace a moment. It's simple and that's it. You just have to use it. Where do you see the problem?
You didn't read my message carefully enough. I said if Mikaela drops shack by accident completely out of chase. She is awarded no points with the current system. For your response to be true, dropped pallets will now have to award points regardless of their use, which everyone who has played this game knows that would be an objectively wrong way to assign points, let alone an MMR weight. Her mistake resulted in a good play. However, what if she knew a pallet like that would be helpful? For example, throwing a filler pallet directly in front of a hooked survivor so the Billy can't immediately rev back to hook and down the unhooking survivor? That would be a good play, but to the system, it is a similar situation but the intention behind the throws are polar opposites. The Billy example's survivor should be awarded MMR but the Mikaela, in my opinion, should not be.
It's amazing how selective your technical knowledge is. On the one hand, you demand complex anti-camp and anti-tunnel systems, trusting that the server can calculate the Killer's position, chase time, and perk activation down to the centimeter and millisecond. You see your Emblems and points for ‘Pallet Stun’ or ‘Safe Hook Rescue’ on the final screen – proof that the game has full telemetry of every event in the match. But as soon as I suggest that a fraction of this already collected data be used to modify MMR, you suddenly pretend that the server is “blind” and “unable to understand the nuances.” Make up your minds: either the game engine doesn't know what's going on in the match (so let's disable Emblems and Bloodpoints), or it knows perfectly well, but the developers can't be bothered to link these variables to the player matching algorithm.
I have never once demanded complex anti-camp or anti-tunnel systems. I only told you that they are not nuanced systems and explained to you the two factors that determine the meter's progress. I've never once suggested that the server is "blind" nor "unable to understand nuance." I said that the system would be more complicated than you are willing to accept.
And you are STILL ignoring what I said. The system put you in a match with players whose MMR average was most likely within one standard deviation of your own skill level to facilitate a fast queue time. And what's even more incredible is you're forgetting the 80/20 rule - 80% of the effort is done in 20% of the time. If we do a little basic math on that, 4 players with ~550 hours each versus a killer with 180 hours looks a whole lot less terrible than the "900 HOUR KILLER LOSES TO 11,000 HOUR SURVIVOR SWF COMP TOP 0.0000000001% MMR" (obvious hyperbole fallacy /s) title you have created your thread with.
- The "Singular Equation" Fallacy
-
@GhostRider1518 said:
Your "Q.E.D." is premature because your entire argument rests on a logical fallacy: that asymmetry justifies data blindness. In reality, asymmetrical systems require more granular data to achieve balance, not less.
- The "Asymmetry" Excuse
You claim comparing DbD to CS2 or Valorant is a "false equivalence." From a data science perspective, that’s incorrect. Whether a game is 5v5 or 1v4, the goal of an MMR system is the same: to minimize the variance between player skill levels in a lobby. Asymmetry doesn't make math impossible; it just makes it more demanding. The fact that DbD is 1v4 is exactly why relying on a single binary outcome (escaped/died) is such a massive failure—it completely ignores the complexity of the team dynamic. - The "Context & Perks" Fallacy
You asked specifically: "What if you have Deliverance? Babysitter? Unbreakable?" and claimed a system can't understand this nuance.
In software engineering, perks are not mysterious human nuances—they are explicit, known variables. The server knows your exact loadout before the match begins.
If you use Deliverance, the system already knows you performed a safe unhook earlier to activate it. It logs a conditional self-unhook event. If it didn't register, Dliverance would never have been activated. It's not magic.
If you use Babysitter, it applies a modifier to the "safe unhook" metric because you gave the unhooked player haste and hidden scratch marks.
If you use Unbreakable, the system logs the time spent slugged and the recovery state.
A multi-variable system doesn't need to "think like a 10k hour player." It just applies mathematical weights to actions based on active modifiers. Ironically, the current 1/0 system is the one that gets fooled by perks. If a terrible player loses a 5-second chase, gets slugged, uses Unbreakable at the exit gate, and crawls out, the current system rewards them with a "Win." A granular system would see the actual telemetry (short chase, slugged, perk carry) and adjust the rating properly.
- The Time-Space Trade-off
You claim the issue is just "personal preference" between queue times and match quality. But you ignore the fact that the "search band" in DbD doesn't just expand—it collapses almost instantly. The system doesn't try to find a fair match for 2 minutes and then expand; it hits a "panic button" after 30 seconds and pulls a 900-hour player to face an 11k-hour squad. That isn't a "trade-off"; that’s an architectural surrender. - The Hypocrisy of "Nuance"
Lastly, you conveniently ignored the point about Camping, Tunneling, and Slugging. The community constantly demands complex, context-heavy "anti-tactic" code to stop these behaviors (like the anti-facecamp meter). Yet, you argue that calculating a slightly more complex MMR system is "impossible" due to "nuance." You can't have it both ways.
. You wrote “while knowing nothing about the current MMR system.” But what do we know about this whole “mythical” MMR? We know that it collects data in a binary manner. You escaped - MMR up. You died - MMR down. 4K - MMR goes up. 3K MMR goes up. 2K - MMR stays the same. 1k and 0k - MMR goes down. And that's it. I don't know anything about the actual state of my own MMR because there's no way to check it, we have nothing. So tell me honestly: what are windows, pallets, and generators for? If the system only counts the end result - escape/kill, then I can hide the entire match and according to the system I'm better. And according to the same system, my MMR is high enough, so I can face a better player. And the fact that I can't loop, I can't hit a skill check on a generator, doesn't matter, right? Right? And tell me, honestly, if that's the case, why do so many survivors sweat, take meta builds for looping and generators, when all you have to do is hide in the bushes to be better? Or the other way around: why have anti-slug, anti-camp, and anti-tunnel systems if, when I want to play against weaker players, I can camp 1 survivor - 1 kill - MMR down and goal achieved? Or why use anti-slug if I knock down 4 survs and do a full slug because they made 1 mistake, I'll do 3k or 4k even though I'm blocking myself with grass, I don't know how to mind game or loop, and according to the system I'm better, right? Right? So what's the point of these systems? Well, exactly... The answers to these questions are also answers to the fact that THE CURRENT MMR SYSTEM DOES NOT WORK AND NEEDS TO BE CHANGED! IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE PERFECT, BUT IT HAS TO WORK! That's it.
If BHVR can't handle the "nuance" of tracking an Unbreakable play, how can they ever hope to balance the actual gameplay? We aren't asking for a sentient AI; we are demanding that a multi-million dollar game stops using a 2016 boolean to manage its 2026 player base.
Once again, you are putting words in my mouth that I did not say. NO ONE, ABSOLUTELY NO ONE, DEMANDS A PERFECT SYSTEM! ALL THAT IS DEMANDED IS A SYSTEM THAT IS A LITTLE BIT FAIR AND A LITTLE BIT EFFECTIVE!
That too much to ask of bhvr studio? If so, how did they manage to create a game like dbd? How are they still able to create new DLC? People, read carefully...You claim comparing DbD to CS2 or Valorant is a "false equivalence." From a data science perspective, that’s incorrect. Whether a game is 5v5 or 1v4, the goal of an MMR system is the same: to minimize the variance between player skill levels in a lobby. Asymmetry doesn't make math impossible; it just makes it more demanding. The fact that DbD is 1v4 is exactly why relying on a single binary outcome (escaped/died) is such a massive failure—it completely ignores the complexity of the team dynamic.
Please enlighten me on what your singular equation would be to calculate the immense amount of variance with perks, addons, items, item addons, killers, maps, map tiles so that your "gotcha" that all these things can be perfectly replicated can actually be held up with facts.
In software engineering, perks are not mysterious human nuances—they are explicit, known variables. The server knows your exact loadout before the match begins.
If you use Deliverance, the system already knows you performed a safe unhook earlier to activate it. It logs a conditional self-unhook event. If it didn't register, Dliverance would never have been activated. It's not magic.
If you use Babysitter, it applies a modifier to the "safe unhook" metric because you gave the unhooked player haste and hidden scratch marks.
If you use Unbreakable, the system logs the time spent slugged and the recovery state.
So your MMR calculator changes and is inconsistent between matches? That is inherently an unfair system and would not hold up at all. So you would need a system that does not change between matches, and like I said, if you can create the perfect system that will not penalize players for making good plays that the system incorrectly determines as bad, be my guest. You will not have a system that "solves" this problem. This is a non-deterministic polynomial problem. For all the variance in an ASYMMETRICAL game, you are trying to have an algorithm for something so ballooned with variables, it would make a Goodyear blimp blush.
The Time-Space Trade-off
You claim the issue is just "personal preference" between queue times and match quality. But you ignore the fact that the "search band" in DbD doesn't just expand—it collapses almost instantly. The system doesn't try to find a fair match for 2 minutes and then expand; it hits a "panic button" after 30 seconds and pulls a 900-hour player to face an 11k-hour squad. That isn't a "trade-off"; that’s an architectural surrender.It does not collapse. It does exactly as it's programmed to do. If you are one standard deviation away from "average MMR," the band will increase to include 68% of the playerbase. If your killer MMR is above average, a team's average MMR can consist of the best player and the worst player; such is the nature of averages. That is how the system is designed to put players in matches to prioritize quick queues. You don't have to like it, but that's the choice the devs have made.
The Hypocrisy of "Nuance"
Lastly, you conveniently ignored the point about Camping, Tunneling, and Slugging. The community constantly demands complex, context-heavy "anti-tactic" code to stop these behaviors (like the anti-facecamp meter). Yet, you argue that calculating a slightly more complex MMR system is "impossible" due to "nuance." You can't have it both ways.The anti-camp meter is hardly nuanced at all. It calculates the rate of increase based on killer distance from hook over a span of time, and if a survivor is nearby, reduce or stop the increase. You are conflating "nuance" with "multivariate." Nuance is something that seems like the wrong play but is actually the correct one. You are also missing the fact that some players will make mistakes that ripple into being good plays due to the nature of the game. One such instance would be a console Mikaela dropping shack for no reason, but that downed pallet ends up saving the Ace getting chased from a blight rush. Who's credited for that? Mikaela for inadvertently making a good play and/or Ace who used it?
Once again, you are putting words in my mouth that I did not say. NO ONE, ABSOLUTELY NO ONE, DEMANDS A PERFECT SYSTEM! ALL THAT IS DEMANDED IS A SYSTEM THAT IS A LITTLE BIT FAIR AND A LITTLE BIT EFFECTIVE!
That too much to ask of bhvr studio? If so, how did they manage to create a game like dbd? How are they still able to create new DLC? People, read carefully...
Funny, I remember you saying this:
I read exactly what you wrote, and I am disagreeing with you because your premise is completely detached from the reality of this specific game.
Nobody is saying make a perfect system, yet this is what you are advocating for with your argument. You want a system to track every single variable that could possibly happen in a match.
And all of this because you ignored the end of my post: the game put you in that lobby out of convenience for the majority of players involved. You got the short end of the stick. It doesn't matter if the system had everyone's MMR perfectly. If you want to wait 30 minutes for a perfectly fair match (in an asymmetrical game lol) that is your opinion. The majority of players; however, would rather just play.
- The "Asymmetry" Excuse
-
@GhostRider1518 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4062845#Comment_4062845
I didn't ignore your question; you just ignored the answer. I explicitly wrote: "nobody is saying 1 hour equals exactly 1 MMR point." Asking me to calculate your exact hidden MMR score based on your 7,200 hours is asking me to reverse-engineer a proprietary black box that BHVR actively hides from its player base. Playtime is a heuristic proxy—a statistical approximation we use because the actual MMR system is completely corrupted by the locker-hiding scenario you literally just provided. And I don't see you playing realistically. I can't give you your exact MMR number, but basic data science dictates that your 7,200 hours put your mechanical baseline in a completely different galaxy than a 700-hour player.
As for your second point: "It's easy to criticize than make a system that has no flaws."
That is a textbook Nirvana Fallacy. Nobody is asking BHVR to write a "flawless" system. We are asking them to write a functional one.
I DON'T WORK AT BHVR, I DON'T GET PAID FOR A SYSTEM THAT DOESN'T WORK. That's one thing. Another thing is that just because I don't create the system in DBD myself, it doesn't mean I can't criticize it. No one here is talking about a perfect system, but about a system that is fair, even if only a little, and that works, even if only a little. If I had created such a system at university or at work, neither my professor nor my boss would have accepted such an explanation. I pay for the game and for the characters - I have the right to demand. If we are going to trivialize everything in an ignorant way and say, "If you don't have any ideas, don't criticize!!! It's impossible because we don't want to!!!“, then all discussions about characters, nerfs, buffs, balance, or the ”holy trinity“ in DBD are pointless, they have no right to exist because ”You're not doing it? You don't have any ideas? Then don't criticize!!! You're so smart? Then give us the perfect solution instead of criticizing!!!". No one is talking about ideals, just about making the basics work, so I don't know where you're getting that from. Don't ignore the whole thing.Industry-standard matchmaking systems in games like CS2, Valorant, or League of Legends are not "flawless," but they track multiple variables, use weighted averages, and accurately separate beginners from veterans. DbD's system relies on a primitive if (escaped) boolean from 2016. Criticizing a multi-million dollar studio for relying on lazy, one-dimensional spaghetti code instead of implementing industry-standard architecture isn't just "easy"—it's necessary if we ever want the game to improve.
While I agree that the matchmaking system is a mess, tracking a massive amount of "variables" is not what is going to fix DbD's matchmaking. There is an inherent issue with your line of reasoning comparing CS2, valorant, league, etc. to DbD: DbD is the only asymmetrical game out of any of those. This false equivalence is essentially the driving force behind this entire thread.
Reading some of the other responses, tracking pallets thrown per minute, windows vaulted versus pallets thrown, near miss m1s; you can track all the stats you'd like but that in a vacuum is doing nothing. Throwing pallets back to back to stall the game with one gen left is infinitely more impactful than throwing pallets back to back with 5 gens left; however, the system would not be able to accommodate for that with any sort of reliability. Additionally, this is taking perks out of the question. Say you trade for someone on hook or take 3 downs on someone being tunneled. Well what if you have deliverance? What about babysitter? What about unbreakable? There is no perfect system that could fully understand the nuance like a 10k hour player would. Even the greatest LLMs wouldn't be able to have a perfect system due to the nature of the game's asymmetry.
While I agree that hours are the only real metric we have in judging someone's skill on this game with any sort of efficiency; said efficiency is nowhere near what you expect it to be. I've seen 5k hour players play as if they've never seen a keyboard before. I've seen 80 hour players (likely smurfs, which is an entirely different issue) who run the killer so well, the killer DCs. All that to say, while the MMR system could have some improvement, hours is not as reliable as people want it to be.
Lastly, killers used to complain ad nauseum back in the day about "muh queue times." You start this thread claiming you are "perfectly average," while knowing nothing about the current MMR system, where you actually place, while pretending to know exactly how the system works by writing satirical pseudocode. What I'm saying is, you could be one standard deviation to the right of average for all we know. Regardless of your own willingness to sit in a 30 minute killer queue to find you a lobby or not, that is not what the devs have implemented; since the longer the average player has to wait, the less likely they are going to continue playing. This game is trying to strike a balance between respecting your time and also putting you in a fair match. Also consider the 11k hour survivor squad. Do you think they enjoy having to wait longer than you for a match? And that's assuming the 11k hours are actually good players. Do you think a lobby of 2.5k hour survivors who play this as a comfort game and are well below average in terms of MMR want to get steamrolled by a blight with their ego on the line? Absolutely not, the experience goes both ways.
While that might prompt someone to say "well fix the system!!" the issue still lies in finding lobbies, which was the main point of your post. You could have the most ideal system in the world, perfectly calculates MMR. That system does not matter if there aren't enough players at every skill bracket to accommodate for it. This is the nature of the game. It is a time-space tradeoff. You are adding additional space in your search band (at the ends of the bell curve) for a faster queue. Other games like league and valorant suffer this same problem. Champion players in league often have to wait upwards of 20 minutes to find 9 other champion players.
All this talk about refining the MMR system and tracking all sorts of nonsense is moot because the issue is down to one's personal preference between waiting for long periods of time for a match and having a challenging match but it's a quick queue.
Q.E.D.
-
@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4062100#Comment_4062100
Don't even joke, 2026 has been bad enough so far
I'm not joking, I'm praying.
-
@pidgeon said:
"The Judgement" feels a little awkward to me. Like I know we have "The Executioner" I feel like judgement would be like a power name rather than the actual killer itself.
They could remove Pyramid Head, problem solved.
-
@Science_Guy said:
Thankfully the better killer design was the real winner.
As for the Survivor… Aurora? Really? I understand that all the names were pretty bad, but now the Sleeping Beauty/Disney princess jokes are never going to end.
Better killer design
The eyeball hodgepodge was the most uninspired and predictable choice, so of course it won, but not on it being the better choice. The issue with these grimoire votes is the community has absolutely 0 interest in making a thematically interesting, consistent, and fresh chapter at all.
A better combo would have been the solid white killer design with the staff that won, GRACE also having solid white robes and no accessories but the battle scar. The chapter name should have been Ashes of Absoultion and here's why:
Grace could have served as a priest for some deeply religious church, and upon uncovering a deep conspiracy, realizes that she has been serving a deeply corrupt mortal institution instead of the god(s) she believes in, leading to numerous deaths and other acts of sin. As punishment, her deity sends an archangel to purge the corruption from the church, including Grace, who is now caught between begging for forgiveness of something she was unaware of, or hiding from punishment. In her fear of the divine and a moment of weakness, she chooses to run and hide, resulting in the name of the chapter: Ashes of Absoultion. Absolution is the formal release from guilt, which could have been offered to her, but since she chose to run and doubt her faith, she burnt the metaphorical bridge, and all that's left are ashes; Ashes of Absoultion.
The reason the solid white works here is because the horror does not come from some eldritch abomination, but rather from the realization that the god you believed in for protection but turned away from is indeed coming for you. The juxtaposition of the "holy" colors being worn by the being hunting you would be brand new for dbd, but no, we get the same old and tired body horror slop.
-
@drag27 said:
with the exception of the chucky bug, thats a No on all the killer nerfs for 2v8
What nerfs in particular and why?
-
@Junylar said:
based on my ~100+ hours from this 2v8 gameplay experience
Considering the killer queue takes half an hour, and an average game takes 10 minutes, those 100 hours of mature experience would translate to 25 hours of actual gameplay and 75 hours of pure waiting.
And? They added the survivor queue. Or I can get up and do anything. I'm not glued to my chair.
-
@JohnNemesisMan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4061487#Comment_4061487
Yeah, I did, and its a placebo. That won't do anything with the fact you can just press a button and evade a killer's hit completely. I'll take a 20-30 exhaustion with the Sprint Burst working like before, without the ability to just press a button and deny a hit because its harmful design to the weaker killers.
So you want sprint burst removed then? How is that fair for survivor players? Increasing exhaustion to 60 seconds for everyone that gets sprint burst is more than enough…
-
@JohnNemesisMan said:
No mention of the on-demand Sprint Burst nor Medics healing mid-chase. Your requests for balance changes feel too one sided, it would just make killer feel even more difficult to play with.
Increase exhaustion to 60 seconds - sprint burst is off cooldown way too frequently
Did you read the entire post?
-
@Wezqu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4061471#Comment_4061471
Where is this 99% have seen maybe few people complain about them so my experience does not support your claim. They also are just a hindrance and can be easily lured away and dealt with. Also using that statement makes your point less believable as its always what people claim to back their own belief and usually is not true at all.
Other points are just you stating the same thing you already did and those are not good reasons to do those things as I stated earlier. Also you can't chain sprint bursts if you are in chase anyway as exhaustion does not go down if you are running. The reason why its better to increase the power charge time than the exhaustion is the reason so the same person can't spam the sprint burst power to others during the chase where they already used it on themselves.
There have been many posts over the past 3 weeks regarding nemesis zombies, so yes there have been many people supporting my claim.
A group of 4 survivors can coordinate sprint bursts among one another better with a higher cooldown and lower exhaustion versus my suggestion.
-
@AGM said:
You're talking about nerfing killers when the game mode is heavily survivor sided?
I think you're forgetting that a huge chunk of players want this mode to be goofy semi-unbalanced fun party time.
There are some extremes I'd tone down, like sprint on command and Oni's effectiveness, but that's about it. Maybe buff some weaker killers and underused classes too.
So much of what you're suggesting already exists in 1v4, and the people who really like 2v8 like that it's different.
People like that 2v8 is different, but that does not mean 2v8 needs to be a chaotic unbalanced mess like it currently is.
-
@Wezqu said:
Nemesis zombie should stay and he does not need any nerfs when he is not even that oppressive in the first place
I don't see point to limit classes on killers and its not really that big of a problem even with instadown killers
Oni does not need to removed some minor changes might be needed but he is not a problem (also removing is never a good way to fix anything in my opinion Legion did not need to be removed either)
Keep the dashes no need to remove them
Chucky needs some fixes yes
I would not increase exhaustion just make the power to charge slower as it way too fast back up
I don't see problem of pallet density in 2v8
There can be valid reasons why you could get match faster like people leaving from the queue or disconnecting from the lobby so thats why they are estimations as you can't count those things in itSome Nemesis zombies should be removed. 99% of the community agrees.
Having 0 terror radius or chainsaw noise on billy or wesker is a problem for survivors and leads to unfair gameplay.
Oni needs to be removed until a solution is found because he is a problem in this mode.
Remove dashes per my reasoning.
Increase exhaustion time so other survivors can't chain sprint bursts.
Pallet density is an issue.
Update my estimated queue time during a wait.
-
@ad19970 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4054877#Comment_4054877
Pretty sure those were just tips for versing Vecna. The counterplay is and has been running unpredictably, and dodging his vine attacks. With the occasional holding w if you have enough distance to him and breaking line of sight when possible.
Tips are literally counterplay. Also while running unpredictably is correct, having to waste extreme amounts of distance while he can hold w in a straight line losing minimal amounts of speed is not the best form of gameplay.
-
@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4057367#Comment_4057367
Just in case I'm one of those people, I probably wanted the the anti-tunneling initiative to go through more than most of the people who complain it didn't (in a correct way, rather than the one they wasted months of manpower on.) I also changed my stance from wanting killers to be able to abandon as freely as survivors to instead wanting the reasons of why they would want to abandon addressed instead. There's a difference between wanting something and wanting it the correct way, and that applies evenly to either side, regardless of how much people want to put each other in opposing classifications.
Who is the moral and logical judge of what "the correct way" is?
For the killers wanting to abandon, the only threads I've seen discussing killers being able to DC are when the exit gates are powered because they don't want to force survivors out and have their egos hurt because the survivors are victory lapping at the exit gate for at most 2 minutes. Meanwhile a killer can slug a survivor for 4 minutes and they have to just accept it.
The reality is both sides have people who want to DC when the game is clearly not going their way. The difference is killer has more control over the state of the game, and they can decide to afk in a corner if they really want the game to be over.
-
@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4057168#Comment_4057168
You might be less frustrated if you didn't boil down everyone who disagrees with you as being a hive mind that is perpetually illogical while everyone who agrees with you is a bastion of Vulcan virtuosity.
There is literally a statement in this thread that giving survivors information would cause them to "win more games and create frustration". While the reality is that it would generally give a minor quality of life improvement that only changes gameplay if the survivor uses that information correctly.
It wouldn't be a huge massive swing in balance. It would, at best, be barely noticeable and likely not even impact perk pick rates, let alone kill rates.
As to the last part, there is a massive difference between being psychic to get value and having the game sense to allow someone to use their perk in a situational way, and I'm sorry your faith in your teammates is that low that you feel that way,
There's no game sense here, there's just a lack of information. I don't know if Meg has the perk, or not, or just a challenge to unhook people.
In most multiplayer PVP games I could communicate that. Playing with StB on one survivor, we'll make it or even deliverance on another, for example, there would be different situations where those would each be the better option. But I can't strategize that or coordinate, certainly not in the moment. And if they're on console I have literally no way to know even if I ask in the lobby.
And I don't think it's reasonable to expect other people to know why I'm pushing for an unhook, if there's zero way to know that these perks are even in play. It's actually just expecting that either I am, or my teammates are able to divine the correct play based on information that isn't available in game and can't be communicated through game.
That seems like an easy fix. Yet here we are, with people claiming the sky will fall if you do so. It's not "fighting a hive mind", it's simply fighting this mindset that only a few people seem to have that if you give survivors even one inch of space it will destroy the game with catastrophic consequences. And that's not just me being hyperbolic, it's some of the responses in this thread.
I completely agree with you. DbD is the only game which has a team based side where communication is just nonexistent for the sake of the other side, all due to fearmongering.
People will tell you with a straight face that dbd can't add contextual pings or short "I'm getting the save" rocket league-esque chat messages for better coordination between soloq players because "think of all the poor trapper and pig players who only play 3 hours a month who would get 0k's from that change 😫😥" Surely the killer players with 1000+ win streaks are laughing knowing nothing will change because of comments like that.
-
@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4057234#Comment_4057234
There is literally a statement in this thread that giving survivors information would cause them to "win more games and create frustration". While the reality is that it would generally give a minor quality of life improvement that only changes gameplay if the survivor uses that information correctly.Did you quote that statement, direct any concerns or considerations at it, or did you make a general statement as a blanket toward "some of these responses" you disagree with in a nebulous form? Believe it or not people can think the right things for the wrong reasons and vice versa, if you have problems with specific logic points, address them instead of being purposely vague to other any opinion besides your own. Its both more productive and keeps you from getting in your own head about people who disagree on some points while agreeing on others.
There's no game sense here, there's just a lack of information. I don't know if Meg has the perk, or not, or just a challenge to unhook people.Game sense isn't about what you know, its about what you can figure out. So yes, if someone is exhibiting behavior that would be consistent with them running a situational perk, you use game sense to decide whether to accommodate that assumption or not like in my We'll Make It example. Its the same principle behind the mindgame a killer makes every time a downed survivor crawls under a pallet, especially if they've been sitting underneith of it: Everything from someone waiting around a corner to a power struggle play become possibilities to consider without having any form of certainty in the decision. Thats why I keep talking about emergent gameplay.
In most multiplayer PVP games I could communicate that. Playing with StB on one survivor, we'll make it or even deliverance on another, for example, there would be different situations where those would each be the better option. But I can't strategize that or coordinate, certainly not in the moment. And if they're on console I have literally no way to know even if I ask in the lobby.Again, DBD was designed specifically to avoid facilitating communication, as well as remove as many concepts of precognition as possible. Its purposely intended to provide a level of disorientation at its foundation. Games like LoL are designed specifically to have communication, games like F13 were designed to limit it severely via proximity or in game items, DBD was designed to not have it at all beyond pointing/beckoning/crouching. Thats exactly why I said earlier that SWF was a necessary evil that contradicted the game's own design the same way nurse being able to blink through walls and take advantage of exposed status while doing so contradicted the game's core foundation as well. You don't use foundational cracks as excuses to dumb down other aspects of games, you treat them as outliers that are specific to what necessitated them in the first place.
And I don't think it's reasonable to expect other people to know why I'm pushing for an unhook, if there's zero way to know that these perks are even in play. It's actually just expecting that either I am, or my teammates are able to divine the correct play based on information that isn't available in game and can't be communicated through game.You keep talking in absolutes, I'm talking in estimations. You don't want to have to consider the possibility of making an incorrect call off of incomplete data, you're demanding certainty in a game centered around a lack thereof. Killers would love to know they will get value from a hex build but accept they might only have 1 perk 40 seconds into the match. Survivors would love to know that their healing build will do anything with the risk they might end up facing a Plague. Its entirely a mindset problem to demand certainty instead of being willing to take risks in concepts centered around risk/reward principles and every time that consideration gets dumbed down, it has ripple effects in other aspects of the game. People bother with perks like UB even less since most of their teammates will abandon before they get the chance to use it, so it becomes redundant. "QoL" can have consequences when done incorrectly.
That seems like an easy fix. Yet here we are, with people claiming the sky will fall if you do so. It's not "fighting a hive mind", it's simply fighting this mindset that only a few people seem to have that if you give survivors even one inch of space it will destroy the game with catastrophic consequences. And that's not just me being hyperbolic, it's some of the responses in this thread.Always with the strawmen. Its not a matter of "the sky will fall," its a matter of the fact we have seen the consequences of these types of misplaced homogenizations in the past, and they directly contribute to every complaint about staleness within the meta. WoO will always be proof of that, and thats coming from someone who thinks the perk has plenty of merits but its ease of use and removal of critical thinking has caused regression in the player base with determining the information it provides without it. The reason you see yellow paint in so many games is because its overuse has led to many players being unable to survey environments without a clear indication spelling out where to go.
Game sense isn't about what you know, its about what you can figure out. So yes, if someone is exhibiting behavior that would be consistent with them running a situational perk, you use game sense to decide whether to accommodate that assumption or not like in my We'll Make It example. Its the same principle behind the mindgame a killer makes every time a downed survivor crawls under a pallet, especially if they've been sitting underneith of it: Everything from someone waiting around a corner to a power struggle play become possibilities to consider without having any form of certainty in the decision. Thats why I keep talking about emergent gameplay.
You shouldn't have to deduce what your team is running in a team game. Also, correlation is not causation. Just because someone sprints at a hook doesn't mean they have shoulder the burden. People still want their pips for their monthly grade, people still want to use their healing perks, of which there are many. There are a plethora of reasons as to why someone would stop what they're doing to get an unhook, and it just so happens that only ONE out of that long list includes shoulder the burden. How is anyone supposed to reasonably deduce that they are running a perk, especially when survivors cannot see the aura of someone. So for your "deduction" situation to be even remotely accurate, a survivor MUST assume 1) a survivor who is not currently doing anything on the hud is indeed going for a hook (remember auras are not shown to other unhooked survivors unless specific perks are brought), 2) they are doing so because it is shoulder the burden instead of any other reason mentioned for getting an unhook.
I understand your point. If a killer player prioritizes kicking a gen below 50% over chasing, or they walk past 3 hooks to get to an out of the way hook; yes you can reasonably assume they have pop and pain res respectively. But for something that requires 0 deviation from normal, optimal gameplay, without said perks in play such as shoulder the burden? How is anyone supposed to correctly guess that within even a coin flip's chance of being correct? And that STILL ignores the whole point of: why on earth do I have to deduce my teammate's perks in a team game intentionally designed around team play? The argument that "well 1.0 dbd you had to." 1.0 dbd had one tenth the perks as current dbd, and almost every perk had an obvious tell because their effect either gave a buff icon or you could see the effect immediately. Urban? Obvious. Sprint burst? Obvious. Iron will? Obvious. Leader? Obvious. Self care? Obvious. How does shoulder the burden do that? It doesn't. You don't know it's in play unless the person with shoulder the burden beats the Sable player trying to get her pip to the hook and you see it on the hud. For any other perk, maybe I would agree with you, but for a TEAM BASED perk like shoulder the burden, it should show to the team that it's an option and who has it.
-
@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4057236#Comment_4057236
You misrepresent my points and then go off attacking your flawed premise of them. Why would I continue to engage in that from someone who projected that onto me right before? It only seems all over the place because you purposely refuse to see the connections between, or you can't understand them. Either way, like I said, there's nothing more to discuss. Feel free to get the last word in if you want, I'm not making this post to try to rob you of that, but I'm absolutely tired of dealing with the constant dismissal and misdirection attempts.
If you are discussing in good faith, then explain to me what my flawed premise is and why you think it is flawed? What points do you think I misrepresented to your original point? I'm honestly not seeing it and would need your help if you think I'm egregiously ignoring your point. I'm not trying to misdirect anything…
-
@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4057227#Comment_4057227
This is rooted in your expectation that the game's core design principles won't change over time, hence my comment. It's not 2016 anymore, it's 2026.You say this while responding to a post where I outline multiple things that have changed since then, including one I actively praised. There's no point in us discussing anything, I tried giving you a chance.
If you read my whole post and that's still your opinion, then I don't even know what you're arguing anymore. I talked about your second paragraph at length in my post.
If that is the case, then your whole point of argument is all over the place. You're bringing up urban evasion, distortion, etc. as if they meant anything to what the original post was about. All OP asked was for a way to see if people were running shoulder the burden, and you're talking about how "back in my day, SWF wasn't in the game" or "back in my day, people complained about urban!" or "I thought the changes to distortion were fine!" You keep typing paragraphs for things wholly unrelated to the topic, and then tell people they're not "discussing in good faith" when they don't engage with your paragraphs-long trip down memory lane.
-
@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4057127#Comment_4057127
The devs have literally said that they don't cater to a stealth playstyle anymore because the community evolved away from it in favor of chases.This is true, and ties back to my comments about the community maximizing efficiency over time. Stealth has always been a less efficient playstyle in the majority of cases it gets used, which is why perks like Distortion had the changes they did to promote it as more of a situational ebb and flow and less an avoidance of interaction altogether. I don't necessarily agree with where they landed on it, but their reasoning was tied to the fact that interacting with the killer has always been a core aspect of the game's design, and complaints about the inefficiency of Urban Evaders goes back ages.
It is all about design philosophy and nothing to do with foundations if the devs are completely comfortable in removing old foundations from the game in favor of a new design philosophy.The fact that the devs are as willing to remove foundations is, again, why we have so much instability and whataboutism on so many topics. The first case was the incorporation of SWF. Yes, I know it was always planned, you can stop typing that response, but it was a necessary evil that contradicted most of the game's design which was focused about obscuring as much information and communication as possible. Ever since, every justification for breaking those design foundations has gone back to "but SWF get that info" or "they get to maximize X perk" which is what has led to the dichotomy between the two to as much of a degree as it has. It becomes a design limitation the same way that the Nurse did, between limiting the potential effects of them (but Nurse can do X with Y perk!) to the point that she needed to have her teleport basic attack be considered a special attack because of stuff like backpack builds. To say that removing a foundation is necessary to evolve a game, you're admitting that either the foundation was faulty or the ideas contradict the game itself, both of which cause further instability with every contradiction.
The reason I praise the HUD update is because it tied into other game foundations when trying to address the dichotomy. Instead of just giving everyone aura at all times, it gave contextual info that allows players to use game sense to deduce more information than it told. Many perks get used in similar ways, in fact the best use of Empathy used to be to track killer movements based on the aura of the injured player: If they're fast vaulting and throwing pallets, you knew the killer is right on them before having the hud give you that information. If they were curled up, someone else was already healing them. That type of meta information is how game sense is used to take information not given to the player and make educated and informed decisions based on what the information you're not told explicitly. By contrast, WoO is an amazing perk for learning layouts, planning tile chaining, and managing existing resources without visual confirmation: Unfortunately, it is so direct and blatant that it has a "Why would I not run it?" effect that builds dependance, which then devolves it into a yellow paint perk. The more things are given over on a platter, the less people feel the need to develop the skills that it replaces when it should be only supplementing. The end result is that people don't embrace those foundations, they become willing to pay a cost to remove them outright then turn around and lament what it costs them to do so.
Whether you want to admit it or not, this game requires coordinated play (or at least very good macro knowledge from soloq survivors) for the survivor team to have a chance at winning.I wholeheartedly disagree, at least to the degree you imply. As someone who only rarely played swf at all back in the days between spirit and slinger, there is more ability to silently coordinate off of other players without the need for direct coordination with them. The distinction is that reactive play is a skill that gets developed and cultured through game sense: If someone is chasing you off hook to try to heal you immediately, you can make an educated guess on the presence of a perk like We'll Make it being in play. There is a massive assumption in the community that every other player is dumber than oneself, so there is never any attempt to understand that many players do things for reasons. Its why the arm flailing on hook to denote camping fell apart, the understanding was that it was to denote the camp, but some people were ignorant to it while others assumed it was just one of those people spamming a button out of needing stimulus. The lack of faith in other players, regardless of how justified they felt it was, caused it to become a less effective signaling tactic.
The people who want more info handed to them and the people who refuse to fill in blanks are one in the same. It creates a dependency on information instead of allowing oneself to embrace the incomplete nature of decision making. Thats why I compare it to having the solution to a puzzle while doing it, as those types of unknowns have always been a foundational aspect of the game. Its why you can't see the killer in lobby, its why tiles and resources are procedurally generated, many core aspects of the game loop were built on unknown unknowns. In fact, its why map offerings needed to be nerfed, as they allowed people to maximize builds specifically around the presence of things like a slew of drop points (and related design flaws) on old Haddonfield. That adds variety to gameplay and makes it less formulaic, and is a type of emergent gameplay design that entices people to PVP games in the first place. The more you erode those foundations, the more formulaic gameplay gets: Instead of adapting to situations as presented, it becomes a series of "if x, then y" statements outside of the human element of your opponent. When people talk about the game being in between competitive and a party game, that foundation is exactly what they're talking about, its not counter strike or league of legends and its not fall guys, it bridges the gap between the two to put an equal focus on variety and skill expression on more than a superficial level.
Gone are the days where you can just stroll through a match with nothing but self care and iron will and have a good chance at surviving through the exit gate.You still can, and people still do, but it becomes more circumstantial than it was in the past for multiple reasons. Aside from more tools being given to the opposition (power scaling in this regard will always be an arms race,) the opposite is also true. Gone are the days where people needed to permalock BT to their build because it isn't even needed anymore. Gone are the days of relying on using DH as a "push button to teleport to pallet" days, as are the "run Overbrine to have hours to defend gens" days. People build reliance due to refusing to engage with aspects of the game, which is why that becomes dangerous when it relates to foundational aspects. Its easy to understand that people barely memorize phone numbers due to having contact lists in their phones, but they should still be memorizing emergency contacts despite that convenience. If you don't have access to the phone and need to make an emergency call like that, if you don't memorize the number you are not able to, which is why overreliance on a convenience can be detrimental to that type of consideration. Essentially, once that type of redundancy affects core gameplay foundations, it inhibits the player from being able to develop those abilities unless they actively attempt to in spite of them, which is why so many people feel so many things are necessary to function within the game. This is something that applies to both roles very much, regardless of how justified people feel it is based on conditions of the game around it. Absence can make things more difficult, but it is never impossible outside of game breaking scenarios/exploits.
I'm not sure if you're being willfully dishonest and pedantic with your apples and oranges commentPot, kettle, etc. This is why I actively don't like engaging in your posts, so please miss me with that. Ghandi's answer to "An eye for an eye" was simply to continue "leaves the world blind." You wanted to force a dismissal, I answered it with a perspective supporting open mindedness.
This is true, and ties back to my comments about the community maximizing efficiency over time. Stealth has always been a less efficient playstyle in the majority of cases it gets used, which is why perks like Distortion had the changes they did to promote it as more of a situational ebb and flow and less an avoidance of interaction altogether. I don't necessarily agree with where they landed on it, but their reasoning was tied to the fact that interacting with the killer has always been a core aspect of the game's design, and complaints about the inefficiency of Urban Evaders goes back ages.
This is rooted in your expectation that the game's core design principles won't change over time, hence my comment. It's not 2016 anymore, it's 2026. The game has changed. You don't have to agree with the changes, but to use a past and long since phased out version of the game as justification for your points on the game as it stands today comes with the nuance that the game you are using as reference no longer exists. It's the same principle as to why, after so many years, scientific sources become out of date: things change. Additionally, like the famous quote says, people will optimize the fun out of everything. All it takes is a few major content creators to accelerate this optimization. We are at the point where this game will forever be a tug-of-war on balance because people are just that much better than they were 10 years ago, as well as the design changes I previously mentioned.
The fact that the devs are as willing to remove foundations is, again, why we have so much instability and whataboutism on so many topics. The first case was the incorporation of SWF. Yes, I know it was always planned, you can stop typing that response, but it was a necessary evil that contradicted most of the game's design which was focused about obscuring as much information and communication as possible.
SWF was added less than a month after the game's release. This nothing point about "it wasn't always in the game" is grasping at straws, if anything. For all intents and purposes, SWF has been in the game for 99.3% of DbD's existence since launch. Let's not treat the 0.7% as a long standing design pillar of the game, ESPECIALLY when SWF was planned from the start. Calling it a "necessary evil" would be calling the fundamental game design of team play against a power role a "necessary evil." Do you truly believe that there would be any meaningful number of survivor players left with today's DbD if you could only soloq on survivor, and then be met with a killer who camps, tunnels, is extremely efficient, proxy camps, runs 4 slowdown, etc.? I highly doubt it. I usually dislike this phrase because most people use it for changes they don't like, but if you truly consider the gameplay loop of team play versus the power role a "necessary evil" in a negative sense, maybe DbD isn't your cup of tea? If you acknowledge that DbD MUST be this way in order to function, that kind of takes the wind out of your argument's sails because you're logging in KNOWING that it must exist for the game to exist.
The reason I praise the HUD update is because it tied into other game foundations when trying to address the dichotomy. Instead of just giving everyone aura at all times, it gave contextual info that allows players to use game sense to deduce more information than it told. Many perks get used in similar ways, in fact the best use of Empathy used to be to track killer movements based on the aura of the injured player: If they're fast vaulting and throwing pallets, you knew the killer is right on them before having the hud give you that information. If they were curled up, someone else was already healing them. That type of meta information is how game sense is used to take information not given to the player and make educated and informed decisions based on what the information you're not told explicitly. By contrast, WoO is an amazing perk for learning layouts, planning tile chaining, and managing existing resources without visual confirmation: Unfortunately, it is so direct and blatant that it has a "Why would I not run it?" effect that builds dependance, which then devolves it into a yellow paint perk. The more things are given over on a platter, the less people feel the need to develop the skills that it replaces when it should be only supplementing. The end result is that people don't embrace those foundations, they become willing to pay a cost to remove them outright then turn around and lament what it costs them to do so.
I agree with you, I do think this game goes overboard in spoon feeding information that used to require skill in the past. I don't think that's entirely a function of soloq vs SWF but rather new player vs veteran player. DbD's entire monetary model is to sell as much DLC and skins as possible to maximize a profit. If you've already purchased all the DLC and all the cosmetics you'd want on your main characters, you are essentially an empty wallet to them. A new Sable/Mikayla/Vittorio/Renato can come along and drop easily $500+ if they enjoy the game, so they lower the bar to entry by essentially putting the bar on the floor. Same thing for killer. There's a reason almost all major licensed killer chapters release completely broken and are brought in line a month or two after the patch. New player money.
I wholeheartedly disagree, at least to the degree you imply. As someone who only rarely played swf at all back in the days between spirit and slinger, there is more ability to silently coordinate off of other players without the need for direct coordination with them. The distinction is that reactive play is a skill that gets developed and cultured through game sense: If someone is chasing you off hook to try to heal you immediately, you can make an educated guess on the presence of a perk like We'll Make it being in play. There is a massive assumption in the community that every other player is dumber than oneself, so there is never any attempt to understand that many players do things for reasons. Its why the arm flailing on hook to denote camping fell apart, the understanding was that it was to denote the camp, but some people were ignorant to it while others assumed it was just one of those people spamming a button out of needing stimulus. The lack of faith in other players, regardless of how justified they felt it was, caused it to become a less effective signaling tactic.
I would agree if the matchmaking system worked as intended. There should be no reason why I am getting 10 hour sable players against a 250+ win streak blight who is streaming to 150 people. Zero reason, yet it has happened multiple times. I can't play off people who don't know how to play the game. I recognize your comment about the game handholding players, but like I said, this is a new player and matchmaking issue. I'd rather have a 5 or 10 minute queue for a competent team, rather than a 1 minute queue with a coin flip on whether or not the game is over at 5 gens because the 10 hour sable got sacrificed at 5 gens. Let the newer players match with newer players and have them build up their skills.
Pot, kettle, etc. This is why I actively don't like engaging in your posts, so please miss me with that.
Yet you typed up 6+ full paragraphs to argue against my points. Also saying pot, kettle would imply you are admitting to said pedantic/dishonest behavior. I don't want to end on a one liner out of the intent of discussing in good faith, so while I agree with some of your points, all I was trying to explain was that 2016 dbd, for better or for worse, is not what we should be entirely comparing against when talking about current balance.
-
@100PercentBPMain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4057127#Comment_4057127
they buffed no Mither to help stealth and 11s ESP is cracked i feel kinda catered to
I run no mither almost exclusively no joke, and the built in iron will buff was one of the greatest things ever.
-
@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4057012#Comment_4057012
If your design philosophy is stuck in 2016, I would like 2016 survivor and killer balancing along with it.Its not about my design philosophy, its about the design foundations for the game. The fact they have been ignored so many times over its life is why we have so much whataboutism, because there are more exceptions than rules now.
People used to not have electricity and gather and hunt for food, but times change; just like this game.How do you not feel this is hyperbolic?
Killers are 100 times better than they were back when survivors knew nothing about each others' perks.As are survivors, when Red Ruin needed to be completely reworked because it was deemed too difficult for the average player, yet now the exits can be powered and opened in less than 5 minutes. You're trying to find reasons to dismiss an argument you disagree with rather than actually trying to view them impartially.
Killers like blight, spirit, oni, wesker, singularity, ghoul, vecna, etc. did not exist back then.Neither did most of the perks that have changed the game for both sides dramatically. Again, I can't tell if you're trying to take your hyperbolic posturing as logical or trying to make some strange point beyond "woe is survivor in current day."
To compare apples to apples, you have to stop bringing an orange into the conversation.Apples and oranges are both fruit, the metaphor only works when relative to the scope of what it is trying to be applied to. I very specifically avoid focusing on details unless necessary because I don't try to use them to attack logic I don't disagree with, but instead to help bolster my own to attempt to provide understanding.
The devs have literally said that they don't cater to a stealth playstyle anymore because the community evolved away from it in favor of chases. It is all about design philosophy and nothing to do with foundations if the devs are completely comfortable in removing old foundations from the game in favor of a new design philosophy.
Whether you want to admit it or not, this game requires coordinated play (or at least very good macro knowledge from soloq survivors) for the survivor team to have a chance at winning. Gone are the days where you can just stroll through a match with nothing but self care and iron will and have a good chance at surviving through the exit gate.
I'm not sure if you're being willfully dishonest and pedantic with your apples and oranges comment, but after 10 years, any live service game will only have very few core similarities of what it once was. Dbd is no different.
-
@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4057009#Comment_4057009
There's a difference between the "right" thing and the "only" thing, which was my point. Having risk/reward in your build isn't inherently a wrong choice, but it gets treated as one for so many people. Meanwhile hexes can still spawn in plain sight of someone's camera pan while they load in and its considered perfectly acceptable. Not knowing whether you'll get value from something like a teamwork perk is not the same as claiming it is an objectively bad choice without that information, as "All Cretans are liars" and whatnot (actually learned that one here, its a great paradox for this game.)
That said, since Empathy was mentioned, curious that Kindred wasn't. Its pick rate should be higher than anything with how much this type of concern gets brought up with comparison to SWF, yet its never even in the top 10 on nightlight or official channels. It is the defacto solo queue perk, and only one out of 4 even needs to run it to get guaranteed value for at least someone on the (if not the entire) team, yet it sits low on usage lists.
sure they can use STB but you wont get much value from it.is the reason, because its not about "might not" but a focus on "will not" regardless of whether that actually comes to pass or not. Its self perpetuating defeatism more than it is an objectively incorrect choice, as people don't allow room for anything other than plans to go exactly as they intend. Its such a boring way to play, and an even more frustrating one when you can't prepare for not getting optimal value from things (or even the game itself.)If your design philosophy is stuck in 2016, I would like 2016 survivor and killer balancing along with it. People used to not have electricity and gather and hunt for food, but times change; just like this game. Killers are 100 times better than they were back when survivors knew nothing about each others' perks. Killers like blight, spirit, oni, wesker, singularity, ghoul, vecna, etc. did not exist back then. To compare apples to apples, you have to stop bringing an orange into the conversation.
-
@ImWinston said:
- SoloQ is in a tough situation and we all know it. But the Devs are doing NOTHING to make it easier. Why are some perks like "Prove Thyself" communicated with the little blue icon at the bottom, but a perk like "Shoulder the Burden" isn't? You can't imagine the rush to use this perk, because in addition to it being a "challenging" perk, I also have to compete with my teammates in solo Q to rush to save and use the perk. Sometimes I could use the perk but I can't because someone "steals" my save in front of my eyes, it's JUST FRUSTRATING. It's not my teammates' fault because they DON'T KNOW I have this perk, but only the devs'.
We should be expecting perk loadout displays in lobby by 2029, only a couple more years to wait!!
-
@Rokku_Rorru said:
That Behaviour has much more control regarding Silent Hill and Castlevania than they let on?
I Feel making corrections to Richter, with also unlinking the fresh start set for Cheryl AND updating the Silent Hill models to the quality of the rest of the cast isn't out of the question at this point. The quality of the Silent Hill content bar Pyramid Head and the map is so outdated and ugly/uncanny when put next to more recent survivors.
Plus not to mention, that means you could potentially bring in MGS cosmetics down the line too?
I feel like considering how much you have ignored Cheryl mains wanting jeans for the t-shirts and the choker added, yet are able to make original cosmetics is contradictory.
Do we have any kind of official answer or response on the potential of revisiting the Silent Hill Chapter with meaningful visual updates and polish down the line?How does a completely different game with a completely different IP with a completely different licensing agreement with a completely different playerbase equate any change with DbD, honest question.
-
@BongoBoys said:
Enough time has past it's time to discuss if the First is OP or not now what drived me to make this post was cause I've seen talk from creators like Otz and Hens saying he's not Op and actually exhaustion perks destroys the First and that exhaustion perks need to be nerfed.
What do you think?
If the dev team's official "counterplay" to the killer is "run sprint burst and prerun," yes the killer is OP lol
-
@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4054447#Comment_4054447
What non-perk, basekit second chances do survivors have?
What mechanics help survivors come back when one is tunneled out at 5 gens?
Why do survivors tend to DC more than killers?
Everyone knows he's going to respond with basekit BT as a gotcha, and then also ask "WhAt dO kILlErS GeT?" as if they aren't the power role and have way more impactful basekit macro decisions than one survivor can dream to have with 4 perks.
Please tell me how basekit BT breaks the game when the killer is proxy camping on any dash killer, collects a free hit on the unhooker, and then tunnels the unhooked survivor to another hook state. No perks required for that strategy on killer by the way.
-
@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4054121#Comment_4054121
I play a lot of survivor actually. Everything I have said is valid. They have all been micro buffs to survivors. In no way is playing survivor a "Painful" process which is my whole point. Sure, this experience is different for everyone because everyone has a different level of experience when playing as a survivor. I can only speak for my own.
I get out and escape pretty frequently.
What are the builds you usually run?
-
@Ragna_Rock said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4054186#Comment_4054186
"Maybe in a comp tournament the average chase is 40-60 seconds (also you keep ignoring that I mentioned its synergy with dead man's switch, which is 45 seconds, because your argument falls apart if you actually acknowledge it), but in an average game, a sable/mikaela/renato/vittorio are going down within 25 seconds, and the snowball begins for the killer."
"DMS fights with Grimm it does not complement it" Conveniently skips this then says I ignored them, hilarious. Proof
25 second chases!? Ok thanks for just saying out loud that you are bad at the game.
No trapper and hag were chosen because they are heavily territorial I can also say knight, skull merchant as well all heavily territorial.
Gens regress at -0.25c/s so unless you just twiddling your thumbs there should be no point where you cant do anything except for Grimms 40sec burst that happens ONCE if all get hooked when the game could be over by then.
"Trapper and Hag do not need to camp" You don't play them properly then got it.
"You realize the survivor can only make 16 meters of distance in 4 seconds right? That's the size of ONE tile, the one they were already looping. And with all the awful tiles that exist now… the math ain't mathing on your "gotcha.""
Ok so you don't know how to run most map got it, also " all the awful tiles that exist now" I wish I could see your gameplay.
"You are giving me random records without any context, with the only person who posted a video being hens after attempting the challenge upwards of 100 times, same with the other records."
So you don't even have the effort to type fast gens on YT says a lot. Those records are people escaping in insane times proving this is something that is repeatable and in the vid you can even see he does so consistently and its not even he first time he has does this.
"I too can also wait 100 games until I get an afk doctor or an awful ghostface player with no perks or slowdown to clock a time under 3 minutes… you really aren't proving anything with these stats. Also, I've seen games against a blight end in under 2 minutes so I'm not really sure what to tell you."
Ok so the killer has to be AFK for you to do well?
You responded in 15 mins when the vid is 22 mins long so its impossible for you to have watched it. If you actually look at the vid you can see player like a blight who are not bad but still getting 0k in under 2.26 seconds.
A blight doing very well against all players is different to using perks to speed gens up with little to no input or skill. But hey one killer out of 42 so guess that means killer OP
look a lot of what you post reads like you don't have much knowledge of what your talking about and are just going off personal experience so I'm going to end it here as I don't want to have an all day back and forth.
but in an average game, a sable/mikaela/renato/vittorio are going down within 25 seconds
Please show me the "I can only last 25 seconds in chase" that you are so confident that I said. Sorry I can't be all 3 of my teammates and myself during a match.
Skips what? Also 1) I'm not clicking random links on a forum and 2) you don't get to have other people make your argument for you. But no DMS does not fight Grim embrace, it is literally the opposite.
Heavily territorial? Are you playing this game like it's 2017 and you're defending release ruin with a bear trap? Everybody knows you set up your traps while corrupt is active and then you chase like normal for hag and trapper, and reset when the time allows. "Territorial." 🤣
Survivors run at 4 m/s. 4 seconds times 4 m/s is 16 meters in a straight line. Tiles are 16 meters. How do I not know how to run the map when I can't even get more than one tile through it? And by "awful tiles" I mean the double pallet slop that now pollutes every map, you know the one. Where one side has a skinny tree the size of a toothpick and the other has a rock that any killer can lunge around. If that's my "one tile" I get after using DS, I am screwed.
Ok so the killer has to be AFK for you to do well?
I would extremely appreciate it if you stopped putting words in my mouth.
You responded in 15 mins when the vid is 22 mins long so its impossible for you to have watched it. If you actually look at the vid you can see player like a blight who are not bad but still getting 0k in under 2.26 seconds.
Like I said, I'm not clicking random links on a forum. Also, I would expect a blight to have a 0k in 2.26 seconds because if he was able to get any kills in that time, he'd be hacking.
look a lot of what you post reads like you don't have much knowledge of what your talking about and are just going off personal experience so I'm going to end it here as I don't want to have an all day back and forth.
All good, I was getting bored proving your claims wrong anyway. Have a good day 👋
-
@Ragna_Rock said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4054172#Comment_4054172
So for every chase that can be on average is about 40-60 seconds a 10 sec stop is powerful? that can only happen three times and a 40 on the fourth that can only happen once, also DMS fights with Grimm it does not complement it, its weak the game could be over before you even get to use it. Saying Grimm is good is a self-report if anything.
"Before gens were 80, they used to be 60. Besides if you care that much about 10 seconds on a hook state, you are a proxy camper, plain and simple."
You say that as if its a slur, some killer NEED to camp like trapper and hag so it means the world to them with all the basekit additions given to survs.
"Blight, nurse, spirit, huntress, singularity, wesker, Krause, kaneki, Billy, chucky, etc all have abilities that make DS useless. Disabling the power for that time is something people have been begging for, at least for dash killers."
If you cannot find a place to loop in 4 seconds that is on you a killer should not have their power shut off because they did what they are supposed to do that is crazy.
"In your on paper calculation, is the survivor just standing at the generator while dead man's is active for 45 seconds? I'd rather pain res be 50% max progress than having my teammate stand on a blocked gen for half the duration of fixing a new one..."
The calculation was a response to YOUR TAKE "70% gets blasted by pain res, grim, dead man's switch, another pain res, grim again, and all of a sudden your hard work was for nothing because the gen has regressed all the way down to 0." I gave the calculation to prove you don.t lose no where near as much as you claimed.
So you just invalidated your own point in the original post, you just said that you just go to another gen and lose little progress for it meaning its not a big deal and that the main problem your having it team mates just standing there that is a massive skill issue not on the killer if people don't want to move gen.
"So you have to spend an entire minute hiding for 4 stacks of stake out, waste another 15 seconds on bardic to have a 50% chance to have a useless roll, all so you can do a gen in 40 seconds... when you could've just spent 90 seconds doing the gen instead of 75 seconds getting your build ready and another 40 for your build to work, and it only works once because it requires a loaded toolbox... yep you got it."
No you do gens and get the value form stake out passively you don't have to follow the killer around most killer having a 32-40m terror radius is big enough that you can get value a lot just for existing. Don't pretend like you can only bring one toolbox and there isn't a perk to recharge it, people like Hens have been able to win in as little as 2min 26 seconds using perks like Bardic and 1234 (count in) so yeah its a big deal. If you don't believe me have a look for yourself.
And here are some more examples in case you say "but its just hens".
Maybe in a comp tournament the average chase is 40-60 seconds (also you keep ignoring that I mentioned its synergy with dead man's switch, which is 45 seconds, because your argument falls apart if you actually acknowledge it), but in an average game, a sable/mikaela/renato/vittorio are going down within 25 seconds, and the snowball begins for the killer.
Trapper and Hag do not need to camp. I have played both at red ranks back before they were given buffs and the MMR system was overhauled. Also cherry picking the worst of the worst killers in the game right now as some sort of valid counterargument 😂
You realize the survivor can only make 16 meters of distance in 4 seconds right? That's the size of ONE tile, the one they were already looping. And with all the awful tiles that exist now… the math ain't mathing on your "gotcha."
You didn't invalidate anything. You know that a gen regresses during the time it's blocked? And also a survivor isn't perfectly rotating back to a blocked gen after 45 seconds, meaning it regressed even further. But you're right, having to spend another 15-30 seconds finding another generator to start from zero, while letting your hard work on the gen you got to 70% go back to zero is somehow more efficient… what?
If you required built to last in the build, why didn't you say it? This is your argument not mine, I'm not going to fill in the blanks for you. I also assume you think survivors won't be healing each other during that time because stake out and hyperfocus also proc on healing, so we're back to square one…
You are giving me random records without any context, with the only person who posted a video being hens after attempting the challenge upwards of 100 times, same with the other records. I too can also wait 100 games until I get an afk doctor or an awful ghostface player with no perks or slowdown to clock a time under 3 minutes… you really aren't proving anything with these stats. Also, I've seen games against a blight end in under 2 minutes so I'm not really sure what to tell you.
-
@Ragna_Rock said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4054121#Comment_4054121
"Gen Regression Perks have been nerfed, yet they are still powerful, especially when paired with gen blocking perks like grim embrace."
Grim Embrace? Powerful? 🤣10 seconds for a hook (once) is nothing you must be trolling.
Gens used to be 80 now its 90 (10sec difference)
"Basekit BT working as intended against tunneling and camping killers. The only people dissatisfied with this are people that do either of those two things."
Oh yes BT only for tunnelers and camping killers (even though some killers need to camp like hag and trapper) because players would never use their BT to take protection hits and then speed off with the 15 sec of haste! No that could n e v e r happen…
DS is useless because of dash killers!? A 4 second stun is not enough?! What do you want their power to turn off as well!? Far from useless.
70% of a gen or 70c (charges) getting hit with a PR + DMS will regress 27c it wont even reduce the gen below half and if you add grim to the mix its 29c for a 10 sec block and 37c for a 40 fully charged one.
Meanwhile a single surv with a gen build can do a gen in less than half the time on their own and do not need to do well to achieve that either thanks to perks like Hyperfocus + Stake Out and Bardic + Full duration commodious.
10 second block for each survivor that pairs well into the pain res proc for each survivor, that then blocks for 40 seconds and can force a dead man's switch... yeah that's powerful 😀
Before gens were 80, they used to be 60. Besides if you care that much about 10 seconds on a hook state, you are a proxy camper, plain and simple.
I think you are overestimating how long 15 seconds is. Also throwing yourself at the killer to take a hit is a risky play, especially after you've just been hooked.
Blight, nurse, spirit, huntress, singularity, wesker, Krause, kaneki, Billy, chucky, etc all have abilities that make DS useless. Disabling the power for that time is something people have been begging for, at least for dash killers.
In your on paper calculation, is the survivor just standing at the generator while dead man's is active for 45 seconds? I'd rather pain res be 50% max progress than having my teammate stand on a blocked gen for half the duration of fixing a new one...
So you have to spend an entire minute hiding for 4 stacks of stake out, waste another 15 seconds on bardic to have a 50% chance to have a useless roll, all so you can do a gen in 40 seconds... when you could've just spent 90 seconds doing the gen instead of 75 seconds getting your build ready and another 40 for your build to work, and it only works once because it requires a loaded toolbox... yep you got it.
-
@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4053944#Comment_4053944
I would disagree. For me playing survivor right now is at its easiest it's been in a while.
- Gen Regression Perks have been nerfed.
- Hook Timers have been increased when slapped up on a hook.
- Decesive Strike is now Free.
- 2 brand new generator perks that have been released have allowed me to pop gens faster than ever with my new updated build.
- Healing has been buffed so I am healing faster than ever now.
- The spawn logic is either bugged or working as intended, not sure but it spreads me and my friends out so we are splitting up on gens/creating easy pressure.
- Basekit Borrowed Time and Haste got buffed to 15 seconds from 10.
Gen Regression Perks have been nerfed, yet they are still powerful, especially when paired with gen blocking perks like grim embrace.
Hook Timers are 70 seconds instead of 60. Meanwhile gens used to be 60 seconds, now they are 90 (and you have to complete 5 of them!)
Almost everyone already owned the Halloween chapter. It being free is not changing anything.
Are you running a full healing build?
Out of the past 100 matches, 100 of them I have spawned next to the other 3 survivors.
Basekit BT working as intended against tunneling and camping killers. The only people dissatisfied with this are people that do either of those two things.
I mean no offense by this, but reading this comes off as a "three glasses" moment for a killer main pretending to be a survivor player, because I don't think any survivor player would say DS being free means anything when more than half the roster has a ranged or a dash ability, making DS absolutely useless; or saying gen regression got nerfed with a straight face after your gen at 70% gets blasted by pain res, grim, dead man's switch, another pain res, grim again, and all of a sudden your hard work was for nothing because the gen has regressed all the way down to 0.
-
@mcallisterbritt said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4054000#Comment_4054000
But if they have 2500 hours in the game only a little bit over half of that would be play time the other would be lobby time…… With how big Dead By Daylight is it would take most people more than 100 day's to understand all killer's perk's, add-on's and power's then leaning all the map layouts and how to loop good and all the teach that the game has….. It's not ridiculous to call a person with 100 days new……
I don't know how you're equating MORE THAN HALF of 2500 hours as lobby time… it's easily maybe 10-15% but half? This isn't 2018 killer queues…
-
@mcallisterbritt said:
Ok with only having 2,500 hours how much of this is game play and how much is lobby hours????? Yeah your still a baby survivor/player….. Dead By Daylight has had heavy aura reading for more than 5 years but survivors have a lot of perks to help with this…. The tunneling BHVR has gave survivor's 15 sec. of Endurance and speed after getting unhooked…… If the survivors let the killer slug that is the survivors fault….. Me and my son was playing last night and had a ONI that was trying to slug everyone but it didn't work but we spaced out and the killer lost the game trying to play like this it's not hard to deal with we where on a Discord call but the other two survivors where solo….. It sounds like you want BHVR to make the game super easy to play…… I LOVE when I get tunneled, I go on 5 gen's runs very often and I love it makes me a better looper every time it happens….. I have over 15,000 hours in the game and I play both sides… I have like 6 P100 and will never stop playing DEAD BY DAYLIGHT…..
While I agree with the idea that 2500 hours is now on the low end when it comes to playtime at higher level play, can we all just stop for a minute and see how ridiculous it is to expect people to spend more than 100 days of in game time playing A GAME for them to still be considered new.