Reinami
Reinami
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- Reinami
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@Sweet_Potato said:
Quintessence of OhTofu's review on the upcoming changes starting here:
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1774914286?t=00h51m30s
Regardless the entitlement of biased killer mains all people who understand how this game works say that the healing change is just horrible for this game. If it come live killers will have to wait 30 minutes in their lobbies for the next easy mode 4k cuz noone will wanna play a boring m1 holding simulator anymore.
Or, and hear me out on this. This isn't the only thing that is going to change.
They are obviously trying to make the game more about spreading pressure and going for chases rather than 3-genning, which based on these forums is what everyone wants.
What if they do this change, then the next thing they do is realize that they probably should nerf gen speed perks, and then buff gen progression at base again, Maybe 75 second gens even? And then give killers a mini corrupt basekit, or some other thing so the early game doesn't end instantly. Then survivors can spend less time on gens, and killers spend more time chasing rather than camping.
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@solidhex said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/369012/the-new-killer-meta-predictions
Playing Spirit hit&run isn't that good of an idea, even though i will defintely play Sloppy on her but no Thana or Leverage. Generally i think making all your build about anti-heal and hitting everyone at least once won't be that strong with killers like Blight, Nurse or Wesker, tunneling and proxy-camping will still be the way to go for top-killers in high MMR because good survs will keep you to long in chase ir will hide to well for you to gain momentum, and they will rush gens with Adrenaline ...
Also Wraith and Legion will never be S-Tier. They're still easily loopable M1 killers even though they will maybe move up a bit in tierlists.
I'm absolutely afraid of "forever"-builds as i already played during those times when Forever Freddy and Forever Legion was a thing. They're unfun as hell and many people will complain.
Personally i think the 3 gen meta could have been way weaker if survivors would bring perks like Deja Vu or actually develop some game sense and break possible 3 gens from the beginning. Not sue how this new meta will play out
You misunderstand my spirit point. Basically, you make it so if the survivors heal, they spend way too much time doing it, so its not worth actually healing. Thus as you start hooking people, you'll just have permanently injured survivors.
You underestimate wraith with Shadow Dance, you can't predrop pallets because he instantly breaks them, can't stay injured because the stealth, and you can't heal because the healing reduction. Yes, you'll still get "gen rushed" but you need to keep in mind that the first hit is basically guaranteed, and you make it nearly impossible to heal.
Same with legion. The reason legion is considered weak is because survivors can spread around and just not heal. But with thanataphobia survivors still need to heal at least 1 survivor. Additionally, legion the button for example means once you drop the pallet, its broken for free. With 20% less time on gens if survivors don't heal (and even more if they do try to heal) you are going to create dead zones extremely fast.
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@Chocolate_Cosmos said:
With all key gen defensive perks gone what Killers will run now?
Anti-healing with thanataphobia.
Probably general build that will work on most killers will be something like:
- Thanataphobia
- Hex: Plaything
- Hex: Pentimento
- Sloppy Butcher
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@Nirgendwohin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3379472#Comment_3379472
the skill curve of killer and survivor is completely different. In my experience, a survivor needs at least 1000 hours of play before he is a reasonable looper. I don't know if such a requirement is healthy for the game which has no casual mode.
You have it backwards, there is no competitive/serious mode. This game is a party game.
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@Sometimes_Sage said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3379464#Comment_3379464
Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that Legion won't profit from the changes, but they will still be leagues below the likes of Nurse or Blight. Simply accepting the slowdown from Thanaphobia against Legion already is a thing and as I said, their big weakness remains.
I play a lot of legion as a secondary, along with my nurse main. And i can tell you, that when i run thana, the survivors often make sure at least 1 of them is healed. The point is, they won't be able to do that anymore, and when survivors all stay injured, you can dead zone the map really really fast.
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@Nirgendwohin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3379402#Comment_3379402
I was thinking exactly the same thing.
survivors are even more forced to become good loopers since stealth is dead too. getting started as a new survivor will be even more difficult and everything now depends on the map rng.
Imagine thinking that survivors should have to be good to do well.
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@Sometimes_Sage said:
I doubt that Legion will become S-tier, their biggest weakness has always been turning injuries into downs, many Survivors didn't even bother to heal against them to begin with, so they won't benefit that much from the changes to healing.
When you run thana they will be forced to heal or gens take 20% longer. Normally survivors would at least heal a bit to make sure thana doesn't kick in hard, but now they will have a hard time even keeping 1 survivor healed.
This extra time, combined with not having to deal with dead hard means you can probably dead zone a map before they can end the game.
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@Blueberry said:
PR is completely dead. Your absolute best case scenario is you get 4 PR procs...that's it. That is assuming you play extremely fair as well. That is garbage for gen regression. No one will be running PR anymore.
I think with the increase to healing times and nerfs to gen regression we're just going to see a non healing meta where everyone just stays injured and rushes gens.
Precisely my point, anti-healing with thana will be the new meta to more passively slow the game down.
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@Peachblow said:
These weren't even major issues. CoH was more of an annoyance than anything (to both killer and survivors equally). The amount of times a survivor would run around aimlessly trying to find a totem when they could be on a gen is quite staggering. It only inconvenienced a killer slightly having to snuff it out. Don't want a survivor to heal? Stay on them.
Dead Hard was in a good place where it was. It was incredibly easy to bait out, but most killers are just too "trigger happy" and wouldn't learn how to counter it. Most survivors don't even know how to use Dead Hard well enough for it to be a viable choice in their keep.
"Stay on them"
That's the point, they are trying to nerf gen regression perks and 3 genning and by extension tunneling by making spreading pressure more powerful. Now instead of going after the same person, you'll want to actually keep everyone injured and run something like thana/sloppy to keep them off the gens.
I have always thought that we need to make more ways for survivors to not be on gens, then we do to increase the time on gens.
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@BougieBlackChick said:
Also why not just remove the circle of healing perk altogether now? There’s no point in even using it because you now need a medkit to use which would heal you without the perk anyway or another survivor to heal you who can again, heal you without the perk. It’s worthless at this point. Just delete the perk if that’s what you wanted to do.
You realize that CoH now takes only a little bit faster than old self care took right? And people memed at self care users because it was bad. But CoH probably takes even longer because you have to set it up and the killer can remove it?
The main use of CoH is the fact that you can heal each other fast, and it gives you a known location (even in solo queue) to meet up to heal each other.
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@Phasmamain said:
As an autodidact user I say bring on your 2 minute long heals!
Ah good point, i suspect autodidact will become meta for survivors along with resilience.
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@Spare_Them_Mori_Me said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3364452#Comment_3364452
Totally agree with this. Except!
I don't play gen regression perks. I find them boring and kind of makes the game.. well, boring. I have 60-70% win rate typically. (3k+)
I main Trapper. Everyone says he's the weakest killer. So from my perspective, gen regression perks are for people who have a low bar of skill. They need it right? Survivors are too stronk? Lets regress some gens. Pffft.
Right, because you lost a bunch and lowered your mmr to a point where you actually can play this way.
Believe me, when i lower my mmr on purpose, i end up with entirely different kinds of games.
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@Caiman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3378672#Comment_3378672
So when three generators pop in three minutes while the killer chases the first survivor they found in the match, what mistake did the killer make?
Try 2 minutes. By the time you find the first survivor and start chasing. Remember, if the chase takes 45 seconds, what they balance around, finding a survivor is easily going to take you 20 seconds just to cross the map, then probably another 5-10 to at least spot someone. Then remember it takes ~8 seconds to walk to a hook, 3 seconds to pick them up and 1.5 seconds to hook. 20 + 10 + 45 + 8 +3 + 1.5 = 87.5 seconds
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@Shroompy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3378652#Comment_3378652
Survivors who think that way are simply entitled, its as simple as that. Majority of people realize that doing unfun things is necessary in some cases unless you're intentionally throwing the game.
Guy, I've been been playing for 6 years, have watched every single dev stream in between that. Nothing of the sort has ever been said and thats further proven by the fact you're the only person I've ever seen mentioning it
This is the point i'm making. People don't like getting tunneled (mostly) and killers don't like being forced to tunnel (mostly) so why not remove it and make it no longer required? Would make more people happy.
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@squbax said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3378298#Comment_3378298
Bhvr won't backtrack their horrible mistakes, take a look at billy, its all you need.
While we are happy with how he is performing..... here are all of these nerfs that destroy his identity and just make him worse even though the only thing that really needed to change was a couple of addons.
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@Shroompy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3378582#Comment_3378582
There are so many things wrong with this
First of all, when did they ever say they balance the game around 45 second chases??? Also if you're average chase time is that long, that's an issue.
Second of all, you can't boil things down to math since there are SO many variables. From perks, to add ons, to what killer being played, to maps, to map generation and even more.
And lastly, this is assuming the killer mindlessly chases the Survivor until they get a down and hook. Which doesn't take into consideration a killer intentionally chasing a Survivor off a gen, or just doing the smart thing in the large majority of cases which is dropping chase. Its such an essential part of playing killer yet no one seems to acknowledge it for what ever reason. Splitting pressure between Survivors is one of the best ways to slow the game down, and it enables you to achieve much better snowball potential later in the game
Your last little bit also seems to go off of MMR and I must ask. Why do you care about a number that you can't even see? There is quite literally 0 reason as to why anyone would want to increase it. Even then this whole thing doesn't make sense since Tunneling to turn the game into a 3v1 as fast as possible only works against inexperienced Survivors, which just inflates your MMR and gets you into even more unfavorable matches. The only time it really works against experienced survivors, is if you recognize a Survivor is running into a bad area of the map once they're unhooked or they do a major screw up.
What i'm saying is, this would be "fair" based on what survivors think, right? You chase 1 guy, hook a guy, and leave them alone to get saved.
Also, they didn't officially state it anywhere written, it was said on a dev's twitch stream that they balance the game around 45 second chases.
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@HugTheHag said:
True.
As the game is right now, plenty of killers complaining about games being too difficult and who feel forced to tunnel to keep their winrate up are just... above their comfort zone mmr-wise. They would do excellent without tunneling if they accepted a few losses and to remain in their comfort bracket.
Slowing down the game more, I fear, won't change anything. Those players will rise in mmr again as their current opponents get hit with the nerf and struggle a little bit in the first few weeks, now killer hits uncomfy zone again, and feel like they need to tunnel to keep their winrate high again.
Back to square 1, except now survivors feel like they need to bring busted stuff to have a chance, which in turns makes tunneling feel even more necessary.
Like it happened before with the 90s gens.
The game, literally mathematically speaking, cannot be won by a killer without tunneling.
Now, i personally would much rather have a game where tunneling (and camping too) is not just discouraged, but literally impossible from a game mechanics perspective, while making it so these things aren't required to win the game (from a math perspective)
BHVR says they balance the game around 45 second chases, which in theory means, if every chase was 45 seconds, it would be a draw. So lets assume that you want to 12 hook all survivors, and not "tunnel" anyone out of the game, and assume those 45 second chases.
Killer and survivors spawn on opposite ends of the map. Most killers will take around 15 seconds to walk to the other part of the map and start a chase.
Generator progress:
1: 15 seconds
2: 15 seconds
3: 15 seconds
4: 15 seconds
5: 0 seconds
Hook Progress:
1: 0 hooks
2: 0 hooks
3: 0 hooks
4: 0 hooks
Now the killer starts a chase that lasts 45 seconds and downs the survivor. Picking them up takes 3 seconds, walking them to a hook takes ~8 seconds (a full wiggle is 16 seconds, so lets assume in the middle) and 1.5 seconds to hook them. This means that first hook took 45 + 3 + 8 + 1.5 = 57.5 seconds
Generator progress:
1: 72.5 seconds
2: 72.5 seconds
3: 72.5 seconds
4: 15 seconds
5: 0 seconds
Hook Progress:
1: 1 hook
2: 0 hooks
3: 0 hooks
4: 0 hooks
Now it probably takes the killer another 10-15 seconds to find the next survivor and start a chase with them, while 1 survivor starts running for the save, and lets say they also heal their friend for the full 16 seconds (meaning lets say it takes 45 seconds to unhook the survivor and heal them). After 45 seconds of the second chase, 1 survivor on hook, 1 survivor saving the hooked one, and 1 on gens you have:
Generator progress:
1: complete
2: complete
3: complete
4: 15 seconds
5: 0 seconds
Hook Progress:
1: 1 hook
2: 1 hook
3: 0 hooks
4: 0 hooks
Now, every chase, hook and down will take 57.5 seconds, and during this time, a single survivor is on a generator. So for the next chase you have:
Generator progress:
1: complete
2: complete
3: complete
4: 72.5 seconds
5: 0 seconds
Hook Progress:
1: 1 hook
2: 1 hook
3: 1 hooks
4: 0 hooks
and then the next
Generator progress:
1: complete
2: complete
3: complete
4: complete
5: 0 seconds
Hook Progress:
1: 1 hook
2: 1 hook
3: 1 hooks
4: 1 hooks
and then you get 2 more hooks before the last gen is completed.
This gives you 6 hooks for the 5 gens done. But you haven't killed anyone because you intentionally didn't tunnel. Yet BHVR themselves have stated the following facts:
- Getting kills is winning, hooks don't matter, if you get 9 hooks killing 1 survivor, you still lose
- 45 second chases is what they balance around, so if every chase lasted 45 seconds, the game should end in a draw: "2 kills, 2 escapes"
This proves that if you don't tunnel, or try to eliminate someone early, by the very state the game is balanced around, then you cannot draw the game.
This is also obviously in a vacuum as not every chase lasts 45 seconds, some last shorter, some are longer. But this is the number the BALANCE the game around. Thus if the game were BALANCED then the goal would be 2 escapes 2 kills being a draw. But if you don't eliminate someone early, you cannot draw the game.
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@Caiman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3377900#Comment_3377900
There's a lot of problems in this game that I'd like addressed, but I try to stay practical and realistic about it. I don't think there's anything we can do for camping and tunneling that would solve the problem without causing more problems. It will always be a thing so long as it's possible to do, and I can't think of a way to make it impossible that wouldn't wreck the killers' experience and/or be weaponized by survivors.
There are plenty of ways to address both without allowing them to be "weaponized" if you also account for their existence in other parts of the game.
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@ASurvkillivorer said:
Are they bugged right now? What the hell is going on?
Whent hey first got released I failed 3 in a row and then ever since then never failed a single one. I also VERY rarely ever fail Merciless Storm....is this somehow connected? MS is killswitched?
Just activated this challenge in tier 4 of the current rift. 3 straight matches I fail it INSTANTLY after landing the first skillcheck. In this last match I found a 2nd yellow glyph I didn't even know that could happen if you already failed it. THe same thing happened.
Something is up.
It looks like what is happening from one i did earlier today was that the skill check is super delayed. Like, i press spacebar, and it keeps going for a solid 10-15% of the circle before it registers, but in the same game, the skillchecks on say, generators, didn't have this problem.
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@Caiman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3377890#Comment_3377890
That's putting a lot of trust in BHVR to do an extreme rework of their game and rebalance it without breaking something/everything.
Simple question.
Do you think the game would be healthier and more fun for both sides if:
- The game wasn't a massive snowball for either side
- Tunneling wasn't possible.
- Camping wasn't possible.
- Killers didn't feel like "gen rushing" existed.
- Both sides have fun when they win OR lose.
- The game didn't actively encourage you to play in unfun ways in order to win.
- The killer didn't always lose 3 gens in the first chase
- We deal with problematic and unfun killer addons/killers/strategies (tombstone myers?, forever pig?)
Because if the answer is yes, then it doesn't matter if you believe BHVR can do it, its a matter of if it SHOULD be done. And if so, then i think it is worth pursuing.
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@DeliciousFood said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3377704#Comment_3377704
While I haven't kept up with the tournament scene in a year, I can say with confidence that your argument is fundamentally wrong in your tournament example. Tournaments have different formats and aim to make every killer A-tier by imposing restrictions on teams. Additionally, if Wraith is a pick on a tournament, BOTH teams must use Wraith as their killer for that round, and the one with the most hook stages will win. I have no doubt that in one instance there's been a 4k.
Now what you're likely referring to is tournament level teams with no restrictions facing an equally skilled Wraith. Obviously that isn't fair and won't work. This won't work on the majority of killers unless they get very lucky. However you can still make a tournament off this and the Wraith wouldn't aim to 4K but instead secure enough hook stages to make their team win. Definitely possible.
Anyway, as for clips, I can't find many clips of tournaments in general but here is a scrim of Team Shrouded practicing with their killer using Wraith: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSlpmIP1_H8 he got a 4K. I have no doubt you can 4k with any killer when a tournament is balanced with the right rules.
You don't face people like Hens' team very often. If you feel that way, it might be because there is a wide gap between your skill level and Otz's. That's not to say he doesn't get babies too. He does. But so do you. It's impossible that you don't unless you're the unluckiest person out there. MMR is a joke, sure, but it's a joke to everyone. Killers that think they need to tunnel constantly are just nowhere near, and probably won't ever be given they're not actually improving, Otz's level, so it makes sense that they feel that way.
Although when you do face teams like you've mentioned, yeah you may need to tunnel and camp. But let's not act like it's common. Most of the time the killer's skill is just inferior to the survivors' and ends up just /feeling/ that way.
Nevermind, I forgot DBDLeague finals had a wraith game. Singularity 4k'd, Eternal 2K'd. You didn't have to wait long.
Wraith game is at about 1:50. Yeah. People need to stop using "not tournament viable" when they have no idea what they're talking about.
Notice that game though, why did that happen? The first 3 gens were done damn quick the the game came to a screeching halt. Yet here we have threads every day complaining about the dreaded "3 gen".
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@Caiman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3377879#Comment_3377879
Doing so would probably break the game as survivors would inevitably find a way to exploit it.
The point is that you balance the game around it literally not being possible. You are thinking about the current game state, and just "remove tunneling" but i'm saying you completely make it impossible from a game mechanic perspective, then balance the game around that idea. I'd argue do the same with camping too.
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@Peanits said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3377674#Comment_3377674
I love the optimism, but that would most definitely not reduce tunneling. Folks who find tunneling an effective way to win will still tunnel, only they'll be even more successful since the Survivors now have to worry about another objective on top of trying to save their friend. Those two things are ultimately completely unrelated. It's like trying to fix a leak in your roof by oiling a creaky door hinge.
What if you did what that person suggested, and then made tunneling impossible from a game mechanics perspective?
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@Peanits said:
I can confirm that it is for accessibility. It provides absolutely no advantage over the regular terror radius, it's purely for folks who need a visual alternative.
At the moment, there is no equivalent on the Killer side, though it would no doubt be nice to have. When it comes to accessibility, we would rather get these features out sooner so the people who need them can use them than wait until we have other features to 'balance' it for both sides.
That said, if you ever have suggestions for future accessibility options, please feel free to drop them here: https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/categories/suggestions
@Mandy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3376591#Comment_3376591
You can toggle it on/off yes. No the killer won't be able to see it - neither will other survivors, it's purely for the player who has it toggled on.
This is an accessibility feature to assist our hard of hearing players so that they can hear the terror radius of the killer, they don't get any other sound cues such as gens being worked, sounds of other survivors healing etc. It's purely the terror radius.
When can we expect similar accessibility features for killer? For example audio is extremely important as killer and for hard of hearing or deaf people it basically becomes impossible. FoV slider for dealing with motion sickness/headaches.
I personally have hearing issues and would love to see something like this happen for killers.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
Killers should get a gen audio accessibility notification, as well. They can hear it, anyway. A visual aid so you can hear gens would be helpful for the hard of hearing folks. Same logic applied to the survivors accessibility options - what about the killer players?
I agree with this as well. In general i think audio needs to be done for killers as well for injured survivors and footsteps.
Saw an article about a game that did this with raytracing and looked pretty good.
Here is the video of it:
https://www.tiktok.com/@wepcgaming/video/7203661769015889158
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@tippy2k2 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3376996#Comment_3376996
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3377002#Comment_3377002
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3377005#Comment_3377005
Huh...that's not something I've really ever heard of before but I'll take y'alls word for it.
I personally don't get motion sickness, nor have visual impairment. I don't know if there is a term for what i have, but in general, i get bad headaches if i have an FoV that is much less than 90-100 in most games after playing for any more than an hour. I generally get around this by playing a round or 2 of survivor in between my killer games to let my eyes rest a bit, but it causes me issues on longer sessions.
For context, the default FoV of killer is 87, which is really tiny. Most FPS games tend to default around 100ish, and for competitive ones let you slide it up to 120. Normal human FoV is 170-180 depending on the person, but obviously you are looking at a screen, so when you extrapolate that out, 100 is probably more natural in games.
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@tippy2k2 said:
Oh good, a FOV thread, I can finally ask this (and I swear I'm not being a Judgemental B, I legit don't get it)
What is the accessibility fix that a FOV slider would give? I can see why you'd want one for gameplay reasons (larger FOV gives you more to see so you might catch a survivor out of the corner of your eye you otherwise missed) but I don't get how that is an accessibility issue.
People who get motion sickness, or have other visual impairments that aren't about color.
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@Deathstroke said:
Well if you tunnel 5 gens remaining that is the most effient thing you can do if you have to win so badly. But don't expect survivors to like you... In that situation it is not really neccesary. 3 gens left then it is neccessary/justified and survivors should not complain I actually said sorry for tunneling in that situation to survivor and he answered it's ok and it was fair play as it was just last gen left. But I still felt bad for me doing that.
The problem is, the game is designed in a way that snowballs extremely hard for either side. So if you don't tunnel at 5 gens, then by the time you realize you "need" to tunnel, it is too late. Better to just play to win from the start, then chill out once the survivors show they are lacking the experience/skill needed to deal with it.
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@hiken said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3372122#Comment_3372122
if u use corrupt intervention that will never happen.- but whatever-
Corrupt intervention does nothing against top tier survivors because either:
A) they force you to chase them near the blocked gens
B) they wait it out
Also, even if it did, a perk should not be required. But hey, i guess 3 gens, camping, and tunneling are all totally fine as well, and we can just keep living in this state where both sides complain about each other instead of realizing that this game encourages extremely unfun tactics from both sides.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3367647#Comment_3367647
Not a bug; deliberate, although I believe they stopped RPD from spawning a 4-Gen it still spawns a 3-Gen virtually every game. As maps become smaller gens will naturally spawn closer together. It’s why killers want smaller maps.
tinfoil hat much? killers "want" smaller maps, because spawning into a map and literally losing a gen before you can physically walk to it is insane. Because the "hold w" meta is extremely boring for both sides.
That isn't to say that 3 genning, and camping, and tunneling, and YES the fact that you lose 2-3 gens guaranteed in your first chase? All should be fixed.
But i always say the early game goes too fast for killers, and the answer i get? "killers are stronger with less gens"
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@Cleverotter said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3370888#Comment_3370888
Then you burn through pretty much every pallet on the map.
You don't realize the point though, every pallet broken buys the survivor a full 25 seconds of distance at minimum against an m1 killer. If you break 4 pallets, you just lost 3 gens from the other survivors doing gens. Even maps with terrible RNG have around 10 at minimum.
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@jesterkind said:
When the topic of buffing the Trapper comes up, a very popular suggestion is to have him start with all his traps on hand, similar to the Trapper Sack addon without the associated downside of being unable to pick up any set traps again. This, in my opinion, is a bad idea, and I don't actually think the most common counterargument - that basement Trapper is unfun for survivors - is the most compelling reason why.
It is a reason, of course, but I think the more compelling argument for why Trapper should not start with all of his traps on hand has a lot more to do with the mechanical "power fantasy" vibe of what Trapper is designed to do.
To me, the point of the Trapper has everything to do with the careful placement of his traps and the juggling of how many you have on hand, because he's meant to be a tactical, careful, planning-ahead kind of killer. If he started with all of his traps, what would stop him from just brute-forcing a down and setting up around that first hook? More to the point, would new players even understand how he's designed to be played if they're never pushed to carefully consider their trap placements?
If a Trapper player is just capable of setting everything down around their first down, it flattens down all of the killer's nuance and interesting depth. It's exactly like the Artist: Her kit is very well designed with a super high skill ceiling, something that you can spend hours learning how to use and getting the placement + timings down perfectly, but... you could instead just place a bird at a loop and force the survivor to run away, and that's a lot easier. It's not more powerful, you're still rewarded for bothering to learn how to play her properly, but it's easy and it's simple and so that's what a lot of players do.
Now, that's not to say Trapper doesn't need any help. He could do with his traps starting closer to him, and he could do with having his setup time reduced through a number of other potential methods, but at his core he should always be a tactical killer that has to think ahead and actually care about how he uses his power. It's a matter of his identity more than his strength that I'm getting at here, and those two things are just as important as one another.
This combined with the fact that things like basement Trapper just aren't very engaging for the survivor side is why I don't think he should start with all of his traps. There's a hundred other things that'd be a much better fix for his current problems, in my opinion.
I agree actually. They need to make his basement/camping/unhealth stuff less viable or just flat out not possible, while increasing his lethality in other areas. The thing i have proposed in the past is:
There are basically a few big problems with trapper:
- His traps are really really easy to see on most maps, they have gotten rid of many places where you can hide traps in the grass.
- The RNG on where his traps spawn can heavily heavily hurt him.
- The trap setting speed is extremely long when used in a chase, meaning they basically can't be used in a chase, and then the survivor just leaves the loop to a new area. If you leave them, they know where the trap was and can easily disarm it.
- His map pressure is absolutely terrible
- RNG means survivors can escape a trap super quick or take a really long time.
- He can lockdown areas too well with a bunch of traps (shack basement etc.)
So how would you fix all of these without making him super OP or unhealthy to play against?
- Remove all the addons that let him carry more traps and rework them, he can keep 2 traps at a time, but any more and they could become too OP with the following changes
- Traps now take 1.5 seconds to set (was 2.5 seconds)
- Traps no longer have an attempt number but simply a single bar to fill up. A survivor can release themselves from a trap after 10 seconds. Another survivor can release them much more quickly in 2.5 seconds. Encouraging survivors to group together.
- Traps are no longer fully visible on the ground, and trapper slightly buries them, making it so they are much less visible. Basically, you could only see the "teeth" of the trap.
- Normalize the RNG of traps, so that the trapper starts with 2 traps, and a maximum carrying capacity of 2 traps, and that 1 trap will always spawn next to every generator for a total of 9 traps on the map.
- When a survivor steps in a bear trap, the trapper becomes excited at the thought of catching his prey. The trapper can press the active ability button, to immediately lock on to the survivor in the trap, and run directly at them, building up speed at a rate of 1 m/s until he catches the survivor. While running to the survivor, the trapper will break any pallets or breakable walls in his path. If he collides with a permanent object (wall, tree, etc.) an animation plays that looks like trapper "crashing" through the object (but does not destroy the object) and he goes through that object. If the survivor escapes the trap before he gets there, this effect will deactivate, if he is crashing through an object while this happens, he will finishing crashing through and THEN it will deactivate.
- Do an addon pass to eliminate problematic addons like, disarming injures a survivor, and rework the bag addons to do something with this speed boost.
- Rework the iri addon that automatically arms traps to make it so he loses the speed boost activatable when a survivor gets trapped, but instead gains a 15% haste (3 stacks of PWYF). So if he wants to use traps to delay, and more actively chase a survivor instead, he can do that.
- Placing or setting a trap will now disarm all traps with 12 meters of it. Preventing you from mega trapping the basement and hardcamping it.
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@Cleverotter said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3370681#Comment_3370681
Sure, an m1 killer, but one that makes you basically perma one hit.
M1 killers still play the pallet game, and you just predrop every pallet and they will never down you.
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@Phasmamain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3370681#Comment_3370681
Pinhead?
I mean I like him but he stomps solo queue and gets stomped by SWF. His power is unintuitive in many ways. Things Such as how to properly solve the box just aren’t explaining and it leads to frustrating matches
His possessed chain is cool in concept but has too much RNG to be consistent and also messes with console button bindings.
His add ons are really great either. Engineers fang is pretty broken and original pain makes tunnelling laughably easy
He is a killer with a passive slowdown that isn't directly slowing down the generators while having a chase power that isn't too oppressive in a chase.
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@BlueHorkew said:
Not the way their power works. I just love how the way a simple power and idea came together to create something unique
Plague is my favorite killer to play, i think the thing i love the most about her is how different matches feel and i feel like i have to adapt on the spot to survivors behavior.
Sometimes it feels just like playing survivor, having to adapt to different teams, different play styles, map RNG. Plague just has her base power, but everything else is out of her control.
I love that survivors dictate how my power can be used but both choices are bad, you just need to know when to do what.
Also she has probably the biggest selection of viable add ons and perk combos out of any killer.
I still hate facing her in solo q, team mates can be so annoying against plague
Plague has a terrible design, because you can basically deny her power by simply not cleansing and then she is a mouse 1 killer.
The best designed killers in this game are wesker, pinhead, and unironically skull merchant. I'm planning a post on her soon. Her problems in design are with 3 genning in general, not with her kit.
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@BougieBlackChick said:
I logged into steam and it showed me a 1GB download for the patch but it wouldn’t start downloading so I exited steam and restarted. Once I logged back on, it’s now got me downloading a 23GB download. What the hell is this? One of my friends is downloading it and it’s showing as 1GB for them.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/TFDBZ2AAVC75/92a9af91-38cb-45ba-9c41-fe47db2b98ad.jpeg
#justunrealenginethings
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@HoodedWildKard said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3370621#Comment_3370621
That's still insane. And then it ramps up as the overcharge strengthens.
175% regression means the generator loses .43 charges per second. Generators PROGRESS at 1 per second. Base regression is 1 charge every 4 seconds.
So no, it is not insane. Non-instant regression is pretty terrible in fact because it gets countered by simply gen tapping. And since the skill check for overcharge follows you, any decent survivor will be able to hit that skillcheck and it won't really matter much.
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@HoodedWildKard said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3370341#Comment_3370341
Yh that combo should definitely not apply the CoB 200% regression.
every single perk in the game that can stack, stacks additively. So CoB + overcharge starts out at 100 (normal regression) - 25 (overcharge) + 100 (CoB) = 175% regression.
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@Peanits said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3370568#Comment_3370568
For what it's worth, the overwhelming majority of matches have hardly any different in ratings. It is not common for the matchmaker to expand to the maximum range- most people will have a match long before that can happen. It'll be a little more common if you're at an unusually high or low rating or if you're playing in off-peak hours for your region, but at that point there's only so much the matchmaker can do. No matter how long you wait, it can't find you a better match without players of your skill level playing at that time in your region.
When you say they don't have much of a difference in rating, do you mean as in REAL rating? Or do you mean as in, the fake cap of like what was it? 1500? that you put on matchmaking that means a survivor that is 2k+ mmr could be matched with a 1500 mmr killer and that would be seen as "fair"
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@Devilishly_Rowdy said:
Firstly survivors complain about camping and tunneling and get basekit perks for it. Then about slugging and make the devs consider a basekit Unbreakable. Then gen regression (which the killer earns by downing and hooking survivors), and a lot of good gen regression perks get nerfed. Now the new complaints are about 3 genning. What do you want the killer to do lol? Not use any strategy what so ever and mindless chase random survivors for hooks and lose? The excuse is "30 min games aren't fun" but guess what, you aren't entitled to 10 min matches, or the killer making the match more fun and easy for you. And the worst part is, the 3 gen rage quits will be rewarded by some killer nerfs, again.
P.S Yes it's an "us vs. them" post. Anything else you notice other than that Sherlock?
The average survivor is starting to realize the truth that long-time/top tier survivors and most killer players have realized.
This game is extremely boring when you aren't in a chase/chasing someone and the metagame around the generators and even escaping is boring. This is why what this game desperately needs is to create a new ranked game mode that is just a 1v1 chase between 2 people, kinda like what players setup now, and simply being a time limit to get downed and whoever lasts the longest wins.
Then keep the "repair generator" game to being the "party" game that everyone talks about.
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@Wexton said:
There hasn't been a thread on noed in like a million years, so let's make one. Yeah let's do it me and you. What's your opinion on noed? Do you hate it? Do you love it? Are you indifferent about it? What are your noed hot takes? I wanna know all these things.
I personally don't care too much about noed, I barely use it. I'd rather make room for more useful perks, I think the last time I used noed was in my first 20 hours in the game. Haven't touched it since then. Some people will ridiculously defend this perk, and others will act like this perk is worse than anything else. So yeah, screw dead head threads, let's get the noed threads going baby.
Back in my day NOED was basekit, and wasn't a hex.
There were also a ton of infinites and survivor is OP in the hands of a skilled player.
At least 2 of those things have changed.
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@TigerSnake said:
You have every right to complain about long matches against our favorite boring ass killer, but you guys saying that guarding 3 gens in close proximity to one another needs to be removed need to knock it off as what you’re asking for is literally impossible. There’s no viable way to prevent gens from spawning close together or implementing some other system to kill the strat without severely unbalancing the game entirely. And don’t say it’s a perk problem either. 3 gens have been viable without CoB/OC for all these years, and will continue to flourish with other perks, including weaken versions of the two I mentioned. What you guys should be asking for is reworks to SM as this is literally the problem here, especially when she literally cannot do anything else but guard a 3 gen. Even Knight’s power has more strength to it where 3 genning is not the only option for him.
I have always said that it is awful that killers often lose the first 2-3 gens in a chase, and it would be nice if the game time was more evened out, so maybe the game wasn't so back loaded to those last couple gens. And i the answer i always get is: "the game is balanced around killers being stronger with less gens" and "git gud"
Well, i'm going to response in kind by saying the same thing back to you at this point.
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@KateMain86 said:
When I'm the last survivor I'll do my best to escape but sometimes the killer finds and downs me first. At that point I don't try to wiggle. I let the killer decide to either hook me or take me to the hatch. Sometimes I get the hatch. Sometimes I get the hook. And sometimes I'll get my time wasted by a total jerk who instead of putting me on a hook decides to lead me on thinking they want me to find the hatch but decided to hook me anyway. I've had far too many matches where the killer will stand still and let me wiggle off just to chase me around and do it again, and again, and again just to then carry me to the hook nearest the hatch so they can hook me and close the hatch after. If you have no intent of letting me escape then don't waste my time making the match go on for far longer than it has to. There is no reason at all for you to be toxic like this. I don't care that I didn't escape. I care that you wasted my time long enough that I could be well into the next match instead of being dragged around by a toxic troll. I'll do absolutely nothing to deserve this from the killer the entire match and then be treated like I was the most toxic survivor ever. Just stop doing this. Its bad for the game. People don't want to deal with this. I wonder often how many survivor mains just close the game out after having something like this happen to them. The game just isn't worth playing when you have to deal with crap like this.
If you don't wiggle and i intend on getting the 4k, i'll look around a bit to see if i can find the hatch, because closing the hatch and hooking is a lot more bloodpoints.
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@Emeal said:
I have just made a team of Good Loopers fail and cry by Patrolling Gens consistently and as Skull Merchant I used Drones to "Guard" over the gens. It worked quite well, even tho they were able to hit many Dead Hards. I was still able to pick them apart slowly as they ran in and tried to disable my drones again and again.
But you make me wonder bHVR, what were they supposed to do vs that? What are SoloQ supposed to do?
Are you supposed to forget about the Drone, eat up the lockdown and rush the gen as fast as possible putting you at great risk?
I hope we can get some clear words on this, if there is a solution I think the community deserves to get a little video clip on twitter on it. Because looking over the forum, people seem confused. I think the Community deserves you pull back the curtain here.
its not a problem with the skull merchant specifically, its a problem with the fundamental game design as a whole. The problem is, the killer is going to lose the first 2-3 gens during the first chase. So what does that leave them with? This is why the 3-gen strat is so prevalent, because the early game just goes too fast. So what ends up happening is this long drawn out fight over these close 3 gen setups.
I think if they were to add some method/game mechanic in place to make dealing with a 3 gen easier, while also adding some mechanic to slow down the early game (early trial warmup anyone?) and basically even out the progress so that in say, an average game where all 4 survivors escape, you'll see a general progression where, a single gen gets done every 2 minutes or so, leading to ~11-13 minute matches, would be much better than what we have now where, you lose the first 3 gens in the first 2-3 minutes and then you lose the next one at around 5-6 minutes. Then you defend a 3 gen for the next 10-20 minutes (if you are stalling/3genning specifically)
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@Krazzik said:
I merely ask because different people have slightly different ideas about what an m1 killer is.
At it's most basic, the definition would be 'A killer who can only injure/down survivors with their m1' so basically their power doesn't deal damage, but under this definition:
Nurse, Blight and Spirit are all m1 killers
Trapper is NOT an m1 killer.
Considering people generally use 'm1 killer' to mean weaker killers, and the fact that Trapper is almost always considered THE m1 killer, the definition can't actually be about only damaging from an m1.
Could it be based on 'Basic Attacks'? Nurse and Blight would then be out, but the fact their m1's aren't always basic attacks is more arbitrary and just down to balance around perks. Spirit when attacking out of phase is still a basic attack for now, but could change in the future if they decided to.
I'm eager to hear if anyone has a good, definitive definition of m1 killer.
I would generally defined it as to whether or not the killer has a power that has to rely on basic attacks because their power doesn't give them extra mobility, ranged attacks, or some other way to ACTIVELY deny/mindgame loops. General gist is: "Do they have to play the loop/pallet game?"
The killer power Based on these, i would consider the following killers to be "m1 killers":
- Trapper - Can't down with just the power, can't use the power as a mindgame to shut down a loop
- Hillbilly - His power lets him instadown and traverse the map, but he still generally has to play the loop game most of the time.
- Myers - He still has to M1 the survivor and still has to loop normally, the power just increases his stats basically.
- Bubba - Same as hillbilly, he can instadown, but he generally still has to play the loop game, mainly he ends up destroying pallets super quick.
- Pig - Generally she still has to play the mindgame at the loops and the dash power is quite weak.
- Legion - They can injure you quickly and technically down survivors with their power, but generally only if the survivors are playing terribly, outside of that, they must hit a basic attack to down.
- Plague - This one is arguable because it depends on how the survivors play. The general strategy against plague is often to just never cleanse and just deal with being injured the whole game. If survivors do that, she effectively has no power.
- Ghostface - This one is a bit arguable, but i think it still stands, ghostface generally can't use the power to deny loops, but instead uses it for stealth.
- Sadako - She can't really use her power for mobility outside of the teleports, but you'll be unable to use that in a chase reliably, she generally relies on stealth and m1 hits.
- Skull Merchant - Her power increases her lethality when healthy, and gives information, but she still has to play the loop game.
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@jinx3d said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3366315#Comment_3366315
90% of the games perks are utterly useless, we just got 9 new useless perks with this chapter. nerf dh, coh, genkick, the whole current meta to the ground, and buff a handful of perks on both sides for a new, hopefully less annoying meta on both sides
Right, that's my point, so why add to the mess and remove yet another viable perk?
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@jinx3d said:
nerf it to the ground. its had its time, make it like ruin where its essentially useless
@Reinami said:
It needs an actual downside/activation condition beyond "get injured"
The one i would propose is:
- After being injured for 40 seconds, dead hard activates, and lets you do the same stuff you currently can do. After being healed, or downed, the perk will decactivate.
This basically means that if you get hit and the killer can down you in the next 40 seconds, then you don't get use out of a dead hard. It means that it can be countered by playing well and doesn't reward the survivor unless they play well. However, it also gives the killer a chance to decide to abandon the chase so they don't have to deal with dead hard. If i hit a survivor, and haven't seen them use an exhaustion perk, i can assume they have dead hard, and if i have a hard time hitting them in the next 20-30 seconds, i can just abandon the chase and go after someone else instead of continuing to commit and risk them using dead hard.
It also is tied to "while injured for 40 seconds" rather than like a "40 seconds after being hit" so that after you get unhooked you can start increasing your timer to get dead hard, or if you want to stay injured due to a perk like "resilience" or you are running no mither for some reason.
I disagree, we shouldn't be nerfing perks to make them useless, every perk should be usable in their own niche way, and BHVRs strategy of just making perks useless is not good, because then we end up in our current world where as it is, both sides have maybe 10 good perks each.
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@BenOfMilam said:
The concept of perk that lets you parry or dodge a hit in a game where you are fighting tooth and nail to get something as small as two meters closer to your target... a little too strong. There's really no way for a perk with that kind of design to ever be fair or fun to play against.
I have potential three ideas for it, which can keep DH as a strong perk but not an over-bearing one.
1: ""Mild"" nerf. Dead Hard makes you Hindered by 25% for 3 seconds after using it. This means you get significantly less distance for using it, but it's still not really that much weaker and probably still the best exhaustion perk in the game.
2: Scorched Earth nerf. Dead Hard no longer gives you a speed boost for tanking a hit. The perk isn't useless, but you gain basically no distance. You can still get the dopamine rush of timing your DH right, but the only reason to run it is for the fun factor.
3: Complete redesign. When you take a protection hit, Dead Hard exhausts you and gives all survivors (other than you) within 16 meters a 150% speed boost for 3 seconds. Still a very strong perk, but now it has a niche as an anti-tunneling perk that helps your teammates get away from the killer.
I'd love to hear what other people's ideas are, so we can find a way to keep Dead Hard fun to use and strong, but not unbearable to play against.
It needs an actual downside/activation condition beyond "get injured"
The one i would propose is:
- After being injured for 40 seconds, dead hard activates, and lets you do the same stuff you currently can do. After being healed to a healthy state, or downed, the perk will decactivate.
This basically means that if you get hit and the killer can down you in the next 40 seconds, then you don't get use out of a dead hard. It means that it can be countered by playing well and doesn't reward the survivor unless they play well. However, it also gives the killer a chance to decide to abandon the chase so they don't have to deal with dead hard. If i hit a survivor, and haven't seen them use an exhaustion perk, i can assume they have dead hard, and if i have a hard time hitting them in the next 20-30 seconds, i can just abandon the chase and go after someone else instead of continuing to commit and risk them using dead hard.
It also is tied to "while injured for 40 seconds" rather than like a "40 seconds after being hit" so that after you get unhooked you can start increasing your timer to get dead hard, or if you want to stay injured due to a perk like "resilience" or you are running no mither for some reason.
40 seconds is just long enough so that if you just "hold w" the killer will down you and you can't use it. But also just short enough where if you outplay them or mindgame them well, or pallet stun them one time, you'll be able to use it.
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@Sava18 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3365481#Comment_3365481
I think people include too much in the term "anti-loop" when most newer(last couple years) players consider it to be the anti-loop killers that's completely deny loops like artist and knight. Killers like blight and wesker technically have anti loop but it can be outplayed and is not a 100% denial of tiles.
What people really want are more killers like blight and wesker but I understand making different play style killers and how hard it would be to come up with a unique kit that is both strong and interactive like blight.
I started off maining hag and went through a bunch of killers before landing on blight. Blight offers the most interaction for both sides. It's simply a result of having the widest amount of counterplay, none of which is guaranteed to be available in any given scenario. A few of his add-ons do mitigate too much counter play of course though. The point is that humans like proving their selves in something their spend time in. Some killers deny skill expression in nearly everyway make survivors upset, some killers are too weak to do anything but be at the mercy of survivors and the maps they get sent to and some killers are bad but still don't allow for major skill expression for survivors like legion.
I'm not even a little creative so I could never come up with a kit that is both unique and consistently interactive but that's what people want. I guess maybe not the super super causals where dbd is their most competitive video game played.
You haven't been on the forums much if you think people want more killers like blight. Blight is complained about on here almost daily.
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@stvnhthr said:
Every game I get paired with a better than average and worse than average teammates. Do you dodge lobbies often when you see your teammates?
I'm tired of doing two gens doing the majority of the saves and every game being left to die on first hook.
Welcome to solo queue
As a survivor, i'll dodge if someone says something like: "If killer is spirit i DC" or if they have a name like "Knight = DC"
As killer i end processes on loading screen if the team suddenly 4 swaps right at the end to a bunch of p100 characters or having like all flashlights or toolboxes because they are obviously about to troll rather than actually play the game.
As both i will dodge if i see someone with legacy. The amount of times i have seen a player who has legacy who isn't cheating is far less than the ones that are just crazy cheaters that troll the game.