Reinami
Reinami
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@C3Tooth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3395496#Comment_3395496
This game is balanced around the idea that survivors are actually SCARED of the killer.
Wait. Does that mean the game should be balanced around low MMR survivors where they're scared to death to ever touch Gen?
I can end multiple chases in a match before it even start with traps, as much as over a min chase.
Each second killers lose mean losing 3sec of Gens, but most killers dont look into the point that each second killers save mean saving 3sec of Gen. Which is why if Killers able to make an early down, its a massive advantage to Killers, to the point just camping and guarantee its 2K. Do Killers think thats fair? Yes. Its the same that survivors think 3 Gens for the first chase is fair. Both are not.
I'm not saying it should be, i'm saying that's how it is currently balanced. I think that there are tons of things they can do that would make low MMR better for survivors, while making high MMR better for killers. But in general, you don't balance games around average players, you balance them around the top players, while keeping the lower skill players in mind. Otherwise your game doesn't have anything to strive for.
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@IlliterateGenocide said:
The skin is obviously based around the queen of hearts and nothing to do with the actual red queen.
hearts everywhere, "off with your head" as the axe description, "giant cards and massive red hearts" for full outfit description.
THEY ARE DIFFRENT PEOPLE.
The Red Queen is a Giant chess piece.. not the queen of hearts.
Also if you look at the alice skin, it mentions "we aren't in kansas anymore" which is wizard of oz, not alice in wonderland.
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@C3Tooth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393329#Comment_3393329
Cases that chases end in a few sec happens too, not every chase is over a min long. If I bring scenarios like chases end in 10sec if Killers make no mistake...2 extreme cases happen all the time.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/JIX5COWQBLUB/image.png
Oh okay I understand.
You are taking that quote out of context. What i mean is.
This game is balanced around the idea that survivors are actually SCARED of the killer. The game is balanced around survivors being scared to do gens in the killer's terror radius, and they want to hide. It's balanced around them being scared to be injured and wanting to heal as fast as possible. It is balanced around them looking through chests for items, or for doing totems even if they aren't hexes. Its balanced around them being too scared to be alone and looking for each other to work on gens together.
This game is most balanced when survivors actually roleplay being a "survivor" but the minute that roleplay goes out the door it doesn't.
The 10 second chases are extremely rare. And this game is actually balanced as stated by devs around chases lasting 45 seconds. Now you tell me what happens if your first chase lasts 45 seconds. You are going to lose 3 gens. Then the next chase will cost you another gen, and then the 3rd chase costs you the last gen. And now you lose.
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@C3Tooth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393269#Comment_3393269
I know you're gone but...if you know how to end chase quickly, then why complaining about slowdown perks nerf.
Because even if you can end a chase quickly, the math doesn't add up. The game is balanced around chases lasting 45 seconds, the devs have stated as such. But now you have to factor in the time it takes to find the survivor, down them, pick them up, walk to a hook, and hook them.
At minimum, unless the survivor screws up a chase, down, and hook will take 55 seconds to do. That is if the survivor just holds w, doesn't use pallets, doesn't use windows. 55 seconds to hit the survivor twice, pick them up and walk them to a hook. Now think about how long that is. This is with the survivor using NOTHING, no resources. Every pallet adds an additional MINIMUM of 20 seconds to the chase.
This means all it takes is for you to predrop 1 god pallet, and hold w, and the killer immediately loses 3 gens to the other 3 survivors. The game is simply not balanced if the survivors do gens.
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@Deathstroke said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393103#Comment_3393103
Yes but that means less tunneling when still 4-5 gens left when tunneling mostly is problem and not as neccesary. If killer spread his hooks at beginning of the game but later tunnels someone out that is fair game usually 3 or less gens left. So this reduces the most problematic tunneling but fair tunneling will remain and that is fine.
That's not going to make tunneling happen at 4-5 gens. Its still going to happen immediately if someone doesn't show their exhaustion perk to me in a chase. I'm going to assume they have dead hard, and just hard tunnel them as soon as i hook them.
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@HarryMasonEnjoyer said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393188#Comment_3393188
so that's almost 2 minutes of guaranteed game delay assuming you can proc them both. the regression from pain res adds further slowdown that can be used to proc grim embrace before the gens fly, and there's still an open 4th perk slot.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393189#Comment_3393189
i'd honestly just go all out on the aura reading and reveal everyone, maybe cut the periodic screaming though. even without that, now you're looking at what the killer power itself is gonna do for you or whatever 4th perk you opt to run. maybe you run bbq and see people elsewhere on the map and know where to go, maybe you're playing legion and can use feral frenzy to find people from a single hit, there are a lot of ways to find people hiding. even still i do get what you mean, but i think this could be a genuinely strong build after the update releases.
Fair enough, but point still stands that, its hard to activate, and its easy to hide out the duration.
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@HarryMasonEnjoyer said:
pain res, grim embrace and no way out all have a pretty interesting synergy going on now. on their own they're not great but i have to wonder how much slowdown these all give collectively now.
Grim embrace is pretty garbage, because by the time you get the effect, you probably already lost or won the game anyway. Additionally, you have to make sure the last person you chase and hook isn't your obsession. If it did some kind of obsession switching, and the aura reading lasted longer, i'd say it would be much more usable. Because right now, its hard to activate, and when it does, all the survivors can just hide and wait out the timer.
When you hook the obsession, another survivor becomes the obsession. Then, when 4 hooks have been done, it blocks all gens for 40 seconds, and then reveals the aura of the obsession for 15 seconds, and makes them scream periodically every 10 seconds. That way they can't just hide it out. And basically what this perk does is guarantees you a single chase where no gen progress can get done.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
Dead Hard:
Why do people think that it should be an Anti-Tunnel Perk? It just got a requirement in form of being unhooked, but this does not mean that it should be Anti-Tunnel. It just means that the Killer will only have to deal with DH when they got at least one Hook on that Survivor. Which means that at least during the first chase, they dont have to care about DH AND the Survivor only gets DH when the Killer already got pressure (aka forcing Survivors off Gens into altruistic Actions).
CoH:
You cannot really compare this version of CoH with the release version. Yes, it is 100% again, but you completely ignore that there is no self-healing at all. With 100% the Perk is at least not shockingly bad, but still not really worth running. (Seriously, I would rather bring We Will Make It, since most of the time you heal others after an Unhook and it does not require Setup-Time)
I'm not saying dead hard should be an anti-tunnel perk. I'm saying it shouldn't be countered by tunneling, and/or it should be completely reworked.
A well timed dead hard is, even after these changes, the absolute most powerful thing a survivor can do in this game. Because it can cost the killer the entire game. You do a chase, you think you are about to get a down, maybe get your pain res, or dms or some other thing. And then BAM, dead hard. Now you get NOTHING AND your chase is now extended for another health state.
Mathematically speaking, no other perk in the game can waste as much time for a killer as dead hard can.
Because of this, it is always a good idea to play around the idea that the survivor might have dead hard. Thus, dead hard should be redesigned in a way, that encourages you to not tunnel someone, while encouraging you to play well, while also only giving it to survivors who play well (no more free health state for no work).
Even without the self healing, boons are too easy for survivors to put up and too hard for killers to get rid of. You have to remember that there is only 1 killer, so yeah, it takes survivors 14 seconds to put a boon. But there are 4 of them. So that's only 14 seconds of a total 56 seconds of time that the whole team has. And it probably takes the killer just as long, if not longer, even if they know where the boon is to remove it, when there is only 1 killer. So the time cost to them is 4x the cost of the survivors.
So, yeah, it takes 2 survivors 16 seconds (total of 32 seconds) to heal an injury plus some extra to find each other. But the big problem is, it also takes killers around 30 seconds to land a hit too. So again, same time cost, but killers time costs 4x the survivors. Even without circle of healing, this is still pretty close in time efficiency. When CoH comes into play, now it'll take 2 survivors 8 seconds (16 seconds total) to heal, and on top of that, they get to see each other's aura. So now you aren't looking for each other anymore, you just know where each other is at. This means you'll likely be able to heal yourself, for more time efficiency, than it took the killer to earn that hit. All while using a perk that can only be countered by the killer also spending more time than it took the survivor to set up the perk.
if boons were single use, and shattered hope was base kit, then sure, maybe i'd agree with you, but since they aren't it doesn't play.
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@VoidOfMe said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3392498#Comment_3392498
It's ridiculous, now they're blaming survivors for the change, like if only the survivors saw the problems with a lot of the nerfs done in the last PTB
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/L2SQ4C62TZGT/killermains.jpg
Even the ones that are way more killer-sided and positive about the PTB changes like SpooknJukes agreed that the healing nerf was too much.
And the DH "buff" some people are talking about, like what buff? It can be used only twice in a match now lolololol they go so far as to deny the Pain Res change wasn't a buff, like, it got busted in the regression, when you boost something is it a buff or a nerf?
Some people shouldn't be playing this, they can't handle it.
These streamers are far from "killer sided" they are what i like to call "Survivor main apologists" where basically, they are ok with things generally being like they are, because they think this game should be balanced around "average" players, and not top tier players.
Take a look at ones that actually think that this game should be balance in a way that makes it balanced for the top tier players like tru3ta1ent. And you'll start seeing a different side of things.
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@jajay119 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393126#Comment_3393126
I've seen a massive increase in Bubbas doing this recently and I just don't get it. It can't be fun and it generally results in a 1k. What's the point?
its the most effective way to protest things and blow off steam when you get tired of dealing with SWF. Because if i'm having a miserable, time, at least i can make someone else have a miserable time too.
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@verysleepy said:
Hahaha. This reads as a I love both sides of the changes.
What it actually is, is a completely 100 percent survivor main moaning that not only was his healing nerf reverted, which is huge, and unfair since nothing of killers was reverted, ....but
Wants dead hard and coh buffed too.
See yourself to the door delusional friend. Pain res isn't dead? Next joke please. Half the time we ain't even getting a pain res hook.
So basically keep all killer nerfs and revert survivors nerfs. Yeahhh man such a good idea.
The healing revert was dumb. 20s was fine. To fully go back on everything you said just looks incompetent while yet again leaving killers fully nerfed. Your game is gonna be dead faster than you realise if killers continue to suffer. Survivors can revolt all they want but if you ain't got no killer to play against, then you ain't got no game.
You had OG ruin for years. Cob, new ruin, pain res DMS.
Now killers have nothing other than the budget regression nobody used
You... didn't read my post did you?
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393041#Comment_3393041
Here's what you said
why would i NOT tunnel with this new Dead Hard?if i don't tunnel, you get away and you have a third health state. if i tunnel you off the hook, your built in BT gives you Deep WoundsRight now, as the game currently exists, the second portion is true. Nothing about new DH changes that. So why would the change to DH increase tunneling?
I already tunnel people who have dead hard off the hook, but the point is they call out specifically that the changes encouraged you to go after the unhooked person instead of the unhooker. When the reality is the changes they made, still encourage you to tunnel the unhooked guy and basically nothing has changed other than, you only have to deal with dead hard twice on the same person.
But everyone knows that all it takes is one, literally a single well-timed dead hard can cost you the entire game. Because meanwhile, you just lost 3 gens while that person now has an extra health state that will take their BARE MINIMUM (hold w, no pallets, no windows, no nothing) 55 second chase down and hook into a 70-80 second, chase, down and hook. Guaranteed to lose 3 gens to the other 3 survivors doing gens.
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@philward1953 said:
I think the most ridiculous take I've seen since this new round of update notes is basically that:
"The devs are encouraging camping because of the DH nerf".
This is simply "I can't tunnel easily anymore" disguised as "I'm forced to camp now".
Obviously, there is a time and place for both camping and tunneling, but I hate seeing people isolate themselves into 2 playstyles. BHVR is attempting to encourage going for the survivor who is unhooking by making it harder to tunnel.
Instead of going "I need to camp because I can't tunnel", think "I now should go after the unhooker", and you've aligned with what BHVR is trying to do.
Only giving yourself 2 ways to play is different that being FORCED to have 2 ways to play.
I'll never understand why people complain like this, as the alternative (where DH is given to the unhooker) is "I'm forced to tunnel to avoid DH".
This current DH is a better change because it encourages killers to not tunnel. I'm gonna go balls to the wall and say this is objectively better than then the last update note's incarnation of DH.
Because dead hard is still hard countered by camping, and then specifically hitting the survivor right off the hook, and then you only have to deal with 1 chase. The problem still is dead hard literally creates a situation where survivors get a 3rd health state at high level play, this is obviously too much and not balanced for this game in general. Because it is BY FAR the most powerful perk survivors have available to them (and still will be) i MUST play to counter it, if i want to win.
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@Mystic_Mizu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393080#Comment_3393080
Just accept the game is balanced now and not killer sided like the live was gonna be. Flashlights and medkits are nerfed, CoH self care is killed... Billy got his add-ons back. Yeah... the game is so survivor sided. 😄
Give me a break. lol
Flashlights were "nerfed" against basically the one killer they were good against (nobody is trying to lightburn a nurse). And that killer is lower mid tier AT BEST. He deserved the buff.
Medkit nerf is solid.
But the rebuffed CoH back to release levels of healing, which is obviously just going to make it be even more meta than it is now.
And, oh yeah, they decided to not nerf billy for no reason. Remember when they originally reworked him? "We like the way billy is performing and think he is balanced.... so here are a bunch of changes that nerf him for no reason"
Meanwhile, gen regression perks got nerfed to uselessness. At least they buffed up the numbers for Pain res to not make it terrible, but its still not going to be as good as it was.
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@Deathstroke said:
They could make dh stack with basekit bt if that's problem. Personally I use always ds to clear that deep wound so you still has to counter dh normally if you tunnel me. But it's usually not good play I have basically 4 health states.
Meanwhile now it's actually worth to go after unhooker he has 2 health state and no dh. So this is best change they could made to dh. With pr buff/nerf it's also rewarded to go after different target.
Its only worth it if they haven't been hooked. As far as i can see, once you are hooked, you keep your dead hard forever until you use it. UNLESS they haven't mentioned it, but it works like DS where it deactivates if you do something, or heal.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3392998#Comment_3392998
You seriously think all killers are forced to run CoB, OC and PR to stand a chance at winning?
I haven't used any of them on months and I still have an above 50% kill rate, like all other killers do.
Apply pressure effectively instead of relying on crutches.
Lets see your evidence. Kill rates, use rates of CoB, OC and PR and how they correlate to kill rate.
So what you are saying is, your MMR is low enough that you play more chill games and are able to do it. Good for you, but it isn't true at high MMR and comp level play.
But if you want to prove it, record some games and post them. I want to see the caliber of survivors you are going against and we can judge how you are able to play without running these perks. Because either:
A) The survivors aren't that good.
B) you are full of it.
C) Top tier Killers have it all wrong and are actually trash at the game and you have some secret knowledge that will actually make us all better.
I really hope it is C, because it would be great, but i'm guessing it is actually A or B. Also, ignoring this post, or refusing to post video proof of your matches, means that the answer is B
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@crogers271 said:
Nurse and blight butcher your proposed dead hard idea (and they are the killers the perk is needed against the most), plus you are basically making it a perk for people who are already great loopers to have an extra advantage.
This makes a far away boon simply too strong and basically will make games with 3 gens last even longer, because survivors can basically infinite heal forever.I think what BHVR is trying to do is clear - you need to weaken up the survivors as killer before the 3 gen. If there are four survivors with CoH active and the killer is on a 3 gen, killer loses. Given the regression perks have been nerfed killers won't be able to hold the 3 gen like they used to, so survivors can rather quickly deal with it.
Nurse and blight should not be brought into the equation when discussing core gameplay mechanics or other changes. They should be dealt with separately. We shouldn't be nerfing or buffing perks because of a single killer.
Additionally, the perks don't make 3 gens happen, the 3 gen itself makes it happen. It just makes games last longer. But regardless, the point was to increase the power of a killer injuring a survivor. But when survivors can heal each other in 8 seconds, this basically eliminates that. And don't think that every single game won't have a CoH in it now...
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@crogers271 said:
Lots of people seem to be going with this line of reasoning and I just don't get it.
Why aren't you playing this way in the game right now? You could have a 100% certainty that someone has DH because you hit it on the first chase. You could absolutely deny it for future chases by just proxy camping the hook and hitting them when they come off.
If you're going to camp, okay, but I don't see why the possibility of new DH makes that more likely than old DH.
I'm playing the game to win. And with these changes, the counter to dead hard still remains to be, hard tunnel the dead hard guy off the hook, going out of your way to hit them right off of it, or quickly, so they get the deep wounds. Then you only deal with one health state.
Instead, dead hard should either be entirely reworked, or it should have to be EARNED in a way that DISCOURAGES tunneling, and actively encourages healthy gameplay from both sides.
My general proposal is to keep dead hard as is, but it works like mettle of man, so no deep wound shenanigans. Then make it so dead hard is not active, then if you are injured for 30 seconds, it activates and lets you use it. Once you heal, or are downed, it deactivates. This rewards killers for downing survivors quickly in a chase, and encourages survivors to play well (can't just hold w) and actually mindgame the killer.
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@BradQuackson said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3388822#Comment_3388822
You do, got a streamer SWF once that didnt have it on
I dunno, i had extremely long queues over an hour + with it on. I'd guess it doesn''t. Maybe it does but it heavily deprioritizes you in the queue or something.
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@smartemarte said:
2 or 3 years ago it was funny it was a meme.... now when you wait 10+ minutes for a game and it's either no braining 5 gens or it's staying on the hook until you die to give everyone else the chance... either way it's just a pointless waste of time with no gameplay and it's not just bubba.
nothing done to stop camping killers but yeah nerf dead hard and healing
@Bot_Salvo88 said:
While I might agree on facecamping Bubba being boring to face, I refuse to believe you have 10+ minute queues
There is no way your queue time is 10+ minutes unless you are queuing with crossplay off.
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@BradQuackson said:
Me and the same 6 people have been playing at the top, I can't find a game. Been queued since 10 AM and now its 12 PM!
The biggest problem is that crossplay off only matches you with other people who also turned off crossplay.
What should happen is that you can get matched with people without it on but only on your platform.
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@Chocolate_Cosmos said:
Recently I saw that some content creators uploaded videos with bait-like titles with theme of "possible end of DbD" just after PTB came out few days ago.
Seriously, I am disapointed of this bait / exaggerative narrative. First of all, it's PTB and I am pretty sure some changes will be reverted since so many people online including influencers are talking how bad it is. Giving objective feedback is of course in need but I really don't like this exaggerative apocalypse themed narrative.
Second, we had in the past some quite not great patches. The last meta-shake up was also big nerf to solo Survivors and people were calling it "the end of DbD" as well. So MANY times in the past was "end of DbD" but it never happend and same case will be with this patch even if all these changes will go live.
Most of the content creators in this game are either survivor mains, or survivor main apologists who basically think its ok that top tier survviors can do what they do because: "its a party game" and the survivor main ones like it because its good content for them.
There are a handful like tru3ta1ent who recognize that there is a serious balance problem in this game and that realize that even the next patch is just going to make gen rushing even worse.
But to answer your question, they do it for clicks.
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@Rudjohns said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3387405#Comment_3387405
"Guys, from now on Generators will take 5 minutes to be completely repaired
Lets test with the PTB
Please Test first"
I rest my case, doom and gloom. We should be ENCOURAGING them to try new stuff and not be scared of it, otherwise we get stuck with a game that hasn't changed in years. The fact that they are finally doing these meta shakeups and trying new stuff is GREAT, and we need more of it not less.
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@MrMori said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3387372#Comment_3387372
I wrote something wrong, you're right. It's additive. But is it really 18.75% volume? If it was 25% multiplied by 25%, then it would be 6.25%, but it's not multiplicative anymore. If they're additive, shouldn't it just be 75% + 75% = 150% = silent?
If it is additive, it is 75 + 75 = 150% which should be silent
If it is multiplicative, it is
100 * 0.25 * 0.25 = 6.25%
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@blmpride5 said:
A lot of people are saying they will quit once the healing nerf comes. Just check the steam charts 2 months after these healing nerfs come out. If the numbers significantly dip then I guess the complainers were right. If not everyone was just threatening to quit like usual. We will see.
stop being so doom and gloom. PTB exists to TEST THINGS so let them TEST THINGS.
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
Not a Survivor main (I play both sides evenly) and even I can answer a few of these:
- “Why is it the end of the world to add a few second to healing?” because camping becomes increasingly problematic, 24 seconds for a heap means two Survivors have to spend 48 seconds to heal, meaning they have 12 seconds to make an unhook. With certain perks, it can make it physically impossible to do anything. Sidenote, the changes to healing also change recovery time, it takes 48 seconds to recover from the dying state, this isn’t factoring in perks like Knockout. I think it can promote unhealthy playstyles for the game.
- ”It isn’t bad when you have perks to deal with this,” but what about people who do not run meta perks? Running something like Botany Knowledge, Autodidact, or We’ll Make It to counteract a basekit nerf effectively reduces the amount of perks people can/will run; this affects people who don’t run meta and also further causes more issues since the teams that bring meta will just use Generator Repair perks now that regression is dead. Also the people who will affected the most by these changes negatively a newer/less experienced players, who already have a horrible time as it is, and will likely not have access to the perks they need, which is concerning.
- Circle of Healing was a decent change honestly, not that mad about it, I wish Boon: Dark Theory got a buff though, it’s got nothing going for it.
- Call of Brine needed a nerf since it made Surveillance a useless perk. As a Surveillance enjoyer, I’m glad Call of Brine was changed in some way.
- Having your whole team injured while someone is on the hook is a YOU problem. You messed up. That literally shouldn't even be possible unless you are gen rushing and ignoring healing. The point of this update is to make it so that killers don't have to run gen regression perks (which tbh there aren't any good ones left at this point) and instead have basekit gen defense by spreading pressure. Camping and tunneling are only ever effective if the survivors make it effective. Keep yourself healed instead of gen rushing, and then the camping won't be a good strategy.
- The point isn't to "not run meta perks" they even said it in the changes, the point is to "shake up" the meta. The reality is, no matter what is done, a new meta will always develop. That's just how games work.
- Boons being permanent fixtures makes them hard to buff. They have the opposite problem of hex perks. Maybe that'll get changed
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@bobateo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3385026#Comment_3385026
I don't think the increased healing time is going to make a difference that is large enough to cover the many issues autod. fundamentally has. It will have some impact, true, but not enough to make up for the the flaws the perk has in practice. But even if the increased time does push it into legit 'useful' territory, I'm still not sure that's a good thing. Sure, the perk would now have useful application and is (potentially) more reliable than it is now, but only because healing in general is now so bad.
Right now it sounds more like "We've pretty drastically throttled the range your wifi will work to 3ft from the router, but you can buy this amplifier to get you back to sorta-kinda-not-really-and-may-not-always-work normal". It might be better than being confined to 3ft away, but it's still not good.
But if the healing changes go through as is, I'll definitely try it out.
I mean, this is a game though, that is the intent. "We are nerfing your healing speed, but if you want it back, you can build your perks around it, but doing so means you can't put your perks in other places"
Sounds pretty good to me...
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@bobateo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384747#Comment_3384747
I doubt it will and no one should hope that autodidact enters high usage. Well Killers might (joking, sort of). I love the theory of the perk, but it's not good in practice and it's the kind of perk that will get worse exponentially if more than one surv runs it. Healing skill checks are already incredibly unreliable to the point where you can go through multiple heals and not get a single stack of auto and without getting at least four stacks, you've definitely wasted a perk slot or worse, you're now a detriment to your team in endgame because if you get those dreaded first 2 stacks when you need healing rate to be at its fastest, you've hurt the team.
If, as impractical as autodidact is, it becomes a highly used perk because even with its glaring and detrimental flaws, it's now viewed as mostly good, that's an indication that healing 'balance' is gone horribly awry.
But with the healing timing increased, it mitigates the skillcheck problem.
The problems with autodidact are that healing is naturally so FAST that you don't get skillchecks reliably. But in this state, healing time is much lower, giving you time to actually get to those skillchecks. I'd guess that only the first heal will be slow, and subsequent heals will get you your last couple of stacks making healing much much faster for the rest of the game.
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@TigerSnake said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384817#Comment_3384817
Thana's garbage, and Corrupt and Deadlock don't help with playing for hooks.
Thana is only garbage because survivors can heal to get rid of the super penalty. But the point here is.
Thana makes it so you HAVE to spend time to heal, or if you don't those 90 second gens now take nearly 20 seconds longer. So by not healing, you are now downable in a single hit, so you are weaker in chase, AND now you are slower on gens.
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@KayTwoAyy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384816#Comment_3384816
Overzealous buff is pretty lit--I totally forgot about it. You're right, those 2 together will be a strong combo.
Also, i'd be surprised if after PTB they don't change it so that altrustic healing stays as 16 seconds. The biggest problem was self healing. You actually WANT survivors to group up and heal each other.
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@mees said:
The nerfs the devs did this PTB is insane. They literally killed almost al the perks they 'nerfed'. After the changes there won't be a single gen reggression perk that's worth using, wich is insane because if you have one bad chase you will immediatly lose the game cause there will be no way ro recover. But this is al kinda balanced because of the healing nerf, but this will only work on lower mmr, because they will heal up because they are to scared to stay injured. But the higher mmr survivors are more confortable staying injured on a gen and will just leave the gen early when the killer aproached and then they will just slam it with resiliance and prove thyself and there will be no way for killers to commit to a chase without losing all the gens. Wich means that on high MMR every killer would get destroyed unless they are playing nurse or blight.
Also I just realised that it takes time for overcharge to start regressing faster so not only does it reggress at 130 now instead of 200 you still have to wait 30 seconds for it to go at 130%. But atleast it starts at 85 instead of 75 now💀. Oh and they nerfed the skill check penalty to.
Btw I know i sound like a angry killer main that only sees the down side for killer but believe me i know survivors had some bad nerfes too im just saying that the heling nerf doesn't matter when you go against a team that already doesn't heal.
Thanataphobia will counter the: "i never heal and just gen rush" that top tier survivors will do.
There is also still gen blocking perks like corrupt, deadlock.
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@KayTwoAyy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384770#Comment_3384770
Inner Healing takes 14 seconds to break a totem + time to find the totem. Then 8 seconds in the locker + time to slowly enter and leave. You'll spend more time trying to get Inner Healing value than if you'd brought a medkit.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384781#Comment_3384781
You beat her the same way you beat every killer--do gens as fast as possible. She can't be everywhere at once.
Maybe you don't realize how much wasted gen progression occurs when people decide to heal.
Yeah, pair it with overzelous. Go for a totem, and now you make up the lost time repairing the gen. There are plenty of ways to do this.
Also, prior to CoH and boons, inner healing was super meta as a way to heal yourself because self care was bad, and breaking totems prevents noed, and many killers were running ruin+undying.
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@irnbru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384760#Comment_3384760
I agree with you on that. What do you propose?
They need to rework bad killers and change them into something like wesker, where there is some sort of map pressure or mobility built into their kit.
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@KayTwoAyy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384746#Comment_3384746
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384747#Comment_3384747
Like I said, the winds are changing and you'd be a fool to sail against them.
Compensating for survivors new dump stat is a losing battle. You should not dedicate an entire build to be decent at one thing, when you can create a loadout that makes you great at multiple things or excellent at one thing.
@Caiman have fun running Reactive Healing into the countless Sloppy Butchers you'll be facing.
Autodidact is a single perk, inner healing is a single perk. You don't need to make an entire build dedicated to healing....
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@KayTwoAyy said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/2T9PEX27YQP2/image.png
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/KJCOH7NTJ2VV/image.png
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/8A3UNDVNRJCO/image.png
You can forget about healing. ..or unhooking. ..or getting unhooked.
You'll need to sit on those gens if you want to escape, so don't even think about doing anything else.
Your fellow survivors are going to think they need to quadruple stack healing perks, and I'm here to tell you they are wrong. The winds are changing, and you'd be a fool to sail against them.
You forgot about perks like inner healing, autodidact (which is actually going to be good now), second wind, and other ways to heal yourself that aren't just "healing" yourself.
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@RaSavage42 said:
Wow... they actually made healing take longer after making Gens take longer.... Now all we need is Hook timers to be extended
But then the base Healing time is the only thing that could've been changed... we'll see if they realize that
The addon changes also don't make much sense... but who am I in the first place
I think hook timers should be increased for sure at this point, but these changes for healing are a step in the right direction.
Generators simply, Go. Too. Fast. in high level play. It is plain and simple. But the problem is, they go too slow in low level play. So we can't just increase the time it takes to repair gens. What needs to be done is to increase the power of spreading pressure and give more ways for killers to get survivors off of generators.
That is precisely what this update is doing. Once we have a viable method of getting survivors off of generators, THEN you can probably go and decrease gens, maybe even so far as lowering them to less than what they were before. 70-75 second gen maybe? Would probably need to come with a nerf to gen perks/toolboxes and other things.
But the point still stands. We are entering a world where BHVR is finally attempting to make it so killers don't HAVE to run gen defense in order to slow the game down. Meanwhile we can start working toward making it so survivors don't HAVE to run gen progression perks to speed the game up.
Its going to be a rough few patches (for both sides) but this is finally a step in the right direction, and shows that BHVR actually understands the game finally.
I suspect the end result of this will be:
- Self healing is nerfed
- Altrusitic healing stays the same as it is now
- CoH stays nerfed
- DH stays nerfed
- Gen speed perks like resilience are nerfed
- Gen repair times reduced to some amount below 80 seconds
- Some kind of nerf to toolboxes/BNP in relation to new gen times.
- Some form of thana or (survivors are worse in some way when injured) becomes basekit. along with probably a rework to thana
- Some form of mini corrupt (maybe corrupt reworked and a 15-30 second corrupt made basekit)
- Giant ass maps like mother's dwelling are reduced in size
- Maps that spawn guaranteed 3 gens are dealt with.
- Hook timers are increased (nerf to camping)
- Tunneling is dealt with naturally by making gens faster and making injuring survivors more important (spread the pressure)
- Probably a rework of the mangled status effect.
- Basekit unbreakable/mori they announced
- Buffs/reworks to killers that really need it
- Nerfs/reworks to killers that really need it
- And to top it all off, we start selling moris as cosmetics.
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@drsoontm said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384720#Comment_3384720
I believe the first version was a simple perk. Then they made it a Hex.
That could very well be the case, it was so long ago i don't remember very well. I probably just ran it all the time lol.
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@WesCravenFan said:
While I don't necessarily agree with the tactic of running four slowdown perks, which is miserable to go against in Solo Queue, I am now worried what defense killers are going to have against highly skilled players slamming gens and leaving. There is almost no good gen defense perks left. I guess we have to settle for Jolt?
I suspect we are going to see more thanataphobia to counter that though. If healing is nerfed, and spreading pressure being buffed, thana is going to be buffed. This is going to force the survivors to stop and heal at least sometimes which should significantly slow the game down.
You don't need gen regression, or defense, if you have survivors doing something that isn't generators.
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@Shroompy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3384691#Comment_3384691
but it was never basekit...?
I forget which version, but maybe it was a beta, it was basekit, then it was changed to a totem on 1.0.0 because it was seen as a bit too oppressive.
The general idea though is "No one escapes death" as in, the killer at the very end of the game becomes very powerful. It incentivize escaping, back before they had the EGC.
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@Shroompy said:
Honestly, I think the best "nerf" it could get is if it were to become base-kit.
Now that might sound crazy at first, but think about it for a second. People have been asking for a secondary objective for a LONG time and this would fit the role. Survivors aren't forced to do it how ever they would suffer the consequences if they don't. Another thing that makes NOED so strong is its surprise factor. Remove that and you'll realize it won't have nearly as much of an impact.
Honestly I think that should be a new kind of perk with a dedicated slot to it. It would work similarly to totems but the perks associated to it would only work during endgame.
back in my day, it was basekit. And wasn't tied to a totem.
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@DemonDaddy said:
Healthy direction and change for the game. Hope we see more
I agree.
Personally, i really do think the game goes too fast, and that gens are "too fast" in the sense that it takes too long to chase and down a survivor for how much time is spent on gens. I mean in general, obviously, nurse/blight play by different rules, but i don't really even think about them, i think you shouldn't even include them in discussions.
But i don't think the solution to that problem is to simply, "make killers stronger" or to "make gens longer" It is more nuanced than that. Because that just hurts solo queue/low skill survivors
There is reason that killers like wesker are seen as the best designed killer. Wesker is good because his power is decent at traversing the map, its decent in chase (but not heavily oppressive) and he creates a situation where you HAVE to get off gens in order to do some other thing, or you are going to be severely penalized.
The solution is to create more ways for killers to get survivors off of gens. This is actually why i think the ruin+undying meta was so healthy, because it forced survivors to do totems and get off gens, even for a little bit, slowing the game down a bit, and did so in a way that actually required the killer to play well.
This is why i like this healing change. What i suspect will end up happening, is they'll keep the nerf for self-healing ,but revert it for altrusitic healing, or they'll rework mangled to no longer reduce healing speeds and they'll make it do something else. (maybe move the regression effect off of hemo and to mangled)
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@Chordyceps said:
With medkits being nerfed across the board, other healing related perks will likely become more popular. I think that Pharmacy has a chance to become more popular. A survivor could get one self heal from a medkit they bring in, and then use pharmacy to guarantee they get another heal from a medkit.
Personally, I could see Pharmacy become one of the most popular healing perks after this patch. I think it's main competitor would be inner healing, but it does require cleansing totems, thus competing with boon perks. I think the main question there is how popular will boons be as a whole after the CoH nerfs.
I could also see Botany Knowledge, We'll Make It and Autodidact becoming more popular, with autodidact potentially being in the running for most popular healing perk.
Renewal could become more popular, but getting it to activate may become more difficult with increased healing times.
I do not see Reactive Healing or Self Care becoming more popular.
What do you think will be the future meta choice for healing perks?
I think we'll go back to older metas where people tend to run things like inner healing. The "meta" survivor builds will probably be something like:
For SWF:
Dedicated Healer
- We'll Make it/Autodidact/Botany/Some other healing speed increase
- Sprint Burst
- Second Wind
- Flex Perk
Everyone else:
- Gen rush stuff
For solo queue:
- Sprint Burst
- Inner Healing
- Overzelous
- Kindred
- Maybe with a map to help find totems, or swap out kindred for small game.
or if everyone is running inner healing and you can't get totems, it'll be:
- Sprint Burst
- Autodidact/We'll make it/Whatever to make healing faster.
- Kindred (i love this perk in solo queue)
- Second Wind
- Or maybe bring a medkit instead of healing stuff, and use it to heal others faster and get second wind ready to go.
People forget that, the way this game works, If you need to heal yourself more than once or twice, or get healed more than 3 or 4 times, you probably already lost the game and are doing it wrong and should just be on gens.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3383704#Comment_3383704
I'm glad you posted this before I made my reply. Sums up what I was about to type out but you did it better.
What does the OP (and those who agree) want? It comes off as "I want us to be able to do all gens without being inconvenienced too much."
It's even worse than that, because if you don't chase them at all you are still boring. When i run STBFL the obsession often complains that i "ignored them" the whole game. So somehow you need to "not inconvenience them too much" but "chase them just enough so that they can have fun" and somehow you need to know exactly how much time that is.
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@blmpride5 said:
OK so apparently if you don't hit and run (which is done by about 3 or so killers) that means the only other option is tunneling. Great logic guys. So whenever you play a non hit and run killer, lets say you play against a wesker. You 100% are getting tunneled because he doesn't do hit and run tactics. Yes that is correct you guys clearly play the game.
Ok, so i don't hit and run, and i don't tunnel, i chase the first survivor i see and hook them, and because i took 45 seconds to down them (the actual chase length that this game is balanced around in theory) i lose 3 gens to the other 3 survivors on gens. Now survivors are 3/5 done with their objective, and i am 1/12 done with mine. And since i can't tunnel, i'm assuming that means i need to go for 12 hooks.
So what exactly should i have done there? "JUST PRESSURE GENS?" that's what "hit and run" is.
Should i "JUST CHASE BETTER?" well, yeah obviously, but if a survivor literally just holds w, uses no pallets, no windows, no perks, no dead hard, just a straight line, gets hit twice, downed and hook. Do you know how long that takes? I bet you don't? I can show you the math if you want, but it takes 55 seconds, 29.66 seconds to land the first hit, 15 seconds to land the second, 5.7 seconds to pick them up (attack cooldown plus pickup animation) 3.25 seconds to hook (that is super generous btw) and 1.5 seconds for the hooking animation. For a total of about 55 seconds. That is pure hold w, assuming the survivor starts running from the killer when they are 22 meters away (a little over 3.5 lunges away). Now factor in that pallets and windows exist, and 45 seconds is a bargain.
So tell me, what should the killer do?
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@blmpride5 said:
DBD is trying to promote hit and run gameplay. Well have fun with a hag guarding her 3 gen or a wraith hitting and running then having to heal before you work on a gen again. The wraith games are going to be awful if this change goes through.
Camping is the most boring thingRuin+Undying is the most boring thingSlugging is the most boringAnti-loop killers are the most boringTunneling is the most boring thing3-gens are the most boring- Hit and run is the most boring <----------------- you are here.
- Killers Pressuring gens is boring
- Anti-Healing is boring
- Killers even playing the game is boring
Meanwhile:
JUST PRESSURE GENS KILLERS.
Exactly what kind of "play style" should killers do, that is a viable way to win, that isn't boring to you? Because at this point, it seems the only acceptable way to play as killer is to:
- Play a standard m1 killer
- Pick a single survivor, and chase only them, making sure to never use your power.
- Don't use any perks
- Once you down and hook that survivor, you need to immediately start running to the survivor that is the absolute furthest away from the hooked survivor.
- Then you repeat.
- But make sure after you hook the second survivor, that the 3rd survivor you chase, is not the one that saved the unhooked person (they might still be healing) but the 4th guy who has only been on gens.
- Repeat, making sure you do them in order, so nobody is eliminated from the game. Then if you actually make it to endgame, you can't camp the hook during endgame, you have to open the exit gates
- Then you have to let the other survivors save and body block, so all 4 escape, and then you have to let them teabbag you at the gate, you can't just run to the other end of the map and stare at a wall. You have to make sure you specifically WATCH them teabag.
- Also don't hit them to force them out, you need to let them teabag you for the full 2 minute timer.
- Also make sure you say: "man i suck really bad" and agree with them when they say "gg baby killer ez"
At some point, i think you need to examine yourself, and decide what it is you really want out of this game. Because there i so much conflicting information about what survivors want from:
- You need to chase more people
- You need to chase less
- Let us do gens
- Stop camping hooks
- Stop camping gens
- Stop proxy camping
- Don't defend hex totems (yes i heard this once)
- Pressure gens better
- Don't tunnel
- Camping in endgame is boring
- GG EZ killer couldn't get kills
Like for real, what the actual ######### do you want?
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@Grum said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3383142#Comment_3383142
...what?
Do you want gens to take 90 seconds with two people working on it, and 5 minutes if someone is doing it solo?
I'm saying they have it backwards. They penalize survivors for working on a generator together. They should instead reward them for doing so, and solo should take longer. That way survivors are encouraged to group up. Thematically speaking, in horror movies. "Splitting up" usually leads to someone getting killed. They should want to group up. This not only encourages better teamwork, but also allows the killer to spread pressure easier. If the killer spawns in the middle of the map and the survivors all spawn in the 4 corners. Good luck not losing 3 gens in the first 90 seconds of the game.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3382406#Comment_3382406
100%. Basically, my opinion was that the gen-kick meta was unhealthy but Pain Res didn't deserve to be nerfed again until killers had some way to slow generators down a bit more especially in the early game. Now granted, nerfing base healing would help with that, I just think it isn't the right way to go about it and creates more problems than it solves.
But no, I'd be totally fine with some form of base Corrupt or something else that makes it so the killer doesn't often just lose 2-3 gens before they get a single hook. I'm not sure exactly what the best solution is, there's probably multiple ways to go about it. You could also provide incentives for healthy killer gameplay that slow down the game a bit. Just throwing out some ideas here.
I also think the default regression rate should be one-third instead of one-fourth, and stuff like BNPs just shouldn't exist.
Honestly i have always thought that they should always spawn survivors in pairs, and make gens progress in such a way that, normal speed is 2 survivors, and with only 1 survivor there is a penalty. They actually have it backwards. Generators should be slower when by yourself, encouraging survivors to group up, which makes spreading pressure easier.
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@Grum said:
If the killer is camping, that leaves the survivors 12 seconds to both make it to the hook, and make an unhook play before the person on hook dies.
Unless the killer has sloppy, in which case healing will take 60 seconds and the person on hook just dies.
Sounds like they are probably going to be addressing camping too, now that spreading pressure is going to be viable. Hmmm. Also to be fair. The counter to camping isn't to save them, its to just do gens, then do a hook trade, then "just do gens" again. Then you win.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3381973#Comment_3381973
Basekit altruistic healing speeds, and basekit self healing medkit speeds, are currently the same. If having the same healing speeds are a problem, then people should have brought it up BEFORE the meta shakeup #2 was announced.
It's clearly not a problem for these basekit healing speeds to be the same, and people are just saying "altruistic healing isn't a problem" as an excuse to get the altruistic healing nerf reverted.
2 things.
1st, Self healing is in fact more efficient than altruistic healing, by miles away. Self healing at base, takes 16 seconds of total survivor time. Altruistic healing takes at least 32 seconds (2 survivors spending 16 seconds) plus the time it takes to find them. So they are definitely different. I suspect that what they'll do is nerf self-healing alot but either not nerf or only slightly nerf altruistic healing.
2nd, just because nobody complained about it regularly doesn't mean it isn't a problem. It is obvious that the devs are trying to discourage this massive "gen defense" meta from killers. They have basically killed the last good gen defense perks. The only reliable good one left, is basically deadlock, and even that one is mostly to counter gen rushing. They want to make it such that kills no longer feel like they have to bring all that gen defense, and instead buff their basekit pressure. And the most interesting way to do that, is to nerf healing. That way, kills are more encouraged to focus multiple different survivors to spread pressure. They won't be able to massively defend gens while tunneling someone anymore with pain res + DMS + deadlock. They now will be forced to spread pressure in order to do so.
However, you can't just nerf all the gen defense and expect killers to "pressure multiple survivors" if there isn't actually a reward for doing that. The reality is, they are trying to make spreading pressure actually worth it for a killer. The only real "problem" here is that the S tier killers like nurse blight and spirit are gonna get buffed from this and be stronger. But what difference does that make? They already are insanely powerful against average survivors.
Why not, buff basekit killer pressure spreading, and then NERF the problematic killers? Bring the top tier kills more in line with the rest of the killers, then buff killers as a whole. Similar to their philosophy around SWF and solo queue, but just a bit opposite. I.E. Buff solo queue survivors in a way that gives them access to some of the same information that SWF have, then we can nerf survivors as a whole and....oh wait, they are literally doing that.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3382290#Comment_3382290
Yes, well, that all sounds nice. I'm sure it's going to be very popular when it releases in 2024.
The same ######### happens all the time to killers, where they nerf some killer thing or buff some survivor thing without doing the other half. Like for example decisive strike. DS used to be 3 seconds, but enduring affected it, so they buffed it to 5. Then eventually they made enduring not affect DS anymore, but didn't revert DS.
Or how about the changes to the mori system while not changing hatch/keys until much later even though mori was how you countered keys?
At the same time though, look at more recent patches. It is obvious they are starting to be more rapid with changing things. I bet you they'll do PTB, make some tweaks, then a week after launch they'll do something for survivors.
They are trying to fix the very things survivors all hate, it is clear from the changes they have made. But they can't "fix 3 genning and tunneling" without making spreading pressure actually viable and giving killers more ways to keep survivors off of gens other than just 3 genning.