Reinami
Reinami
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- Reinami
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@Veinslay said:
If you're a semi-decent killer, you're going to get matched against majority SWF because solos can't push high MMR because they don't escape enough.
If you play solo survivor exclusively, you'll get primarily matched in full solo lobbies where you have less chance of escaping.
Of course this doesn't apply if you're a fog whisperer/big content creator cause BHVR did something to the matchmaking to deal with the DDOSing/hackers. Those players get fed a steady stream of complete babies to beat on while average killer players get the pleasure of playing with the 10k hour SWFs and bully squads
I honestly think this is it, because all of these content creators talk about how "rare" it is to get these "crazy teams" when basically my games are usually getting these types of teams every 2 or 3 games. Almost like matchmaking is "balancing" my wins based on, "oh you lost recently, let me give you some babies so you get your kill rate back up for a few rounds, then i'll give you these crazy teams again"
This is basically a conspiracy theory, but this is my theory as to why people like otz and scott hold the opinions they do because their matches actually are easier, meanwhile people like tru3ta1ent are regularly getting these crazy teams far more often than they are.
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@SeaFlower said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3411588#Comment_3411588
That’s not a valid comparison. One dominates off sheer skill. This hands everything as a gimme to the player. Not even remotely equivalent.
Do you think the blight in the OP is a problem, or how about SupaAlf's nurse?
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@Hunkulese said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3411562#Comment_3411562
Who cares?
If you're in the high MMR bracket, maybe you'll get matched with a comp player/team playing with a comp mindset a couple times a year. You can deal with that.
Comp players aren't queuing with a comp mindset because it's just as unfun for them as it is for you.
So answer the original question then. Is this blight with 1k wins a problem? If so, how is it any different than Hens and his survivor team? If you think this blight is a problem, then those survivor teams must also be a problem right? If not, you are biased.
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@Crowman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3411562#Comment_3411562
You'll eventually get a game against one of those players, but most of your games are not against them.
Ok, lets imagine a hypothetical scenario.
There is a killer offering in the game that does the following:
- Every survivor is permanently exposed
- Permanently reveal the aura of all survivors
- All survivors can be mori'd immediately without hooks.
- The killer moves at 200% movement speed.
- Survivor repair speed is reduced by 50% (gens take twice as long)
- This offering has a 0.01% chance to appear in the bloodweb.
Now, would this offering be fair? Should it be removed/changed? Or should they leave it as is? It would be super rare, you'd see it one out of every thousand games or so.
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@Hunkulese said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3411362#Comment_3411362
It's not a problem though. 99.9% of players aren't playing the game with a comp mindset. The tournament rules are aimed at a tournament setting and make the game significantly less fun to play.
DBD is actually in a pretty good place balance wide. It's an impossible task to balance an asymmetrical game with over 30 different killers. A competent team of survivors versus a competent killer of a similar skill level will usually lead to en enjoyable game. The two biggest problems are that matchmaking is setup to get you in a game as soon as possible and only kind of trying to match you with players of a similar skill level and that a lot of survivor players don't know what they should be doing in the game. Way too many survivors play with the mentality that as soon as someone is hooked, the best course of action is to stop doing gens and rush to the hook, even when that's what the other three are doing as well.
But when those 0.01% of players play with us regulars, it isn't fair, because the game is balanced in a way that is unfair. If this is the case then these people should not be allowed to play in regular queue without these same restrictions they place on tournaments.
Additionally, nobody has commented on what i said. Which is, why can't we nerf the insanely ridiculous god loops that can spawn on certain maps? Low level survivors aren't using those loops at the level that high level survivors can, so nerfing those loops won't hurt them, because they cant use the loops that way anyway. All it does is hurt the high level survivors. Can we at least agree on that?
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@Hunkulese said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3409864#Comment_3409864
The game is actually decently balanced at high-level tournament play when using tournament rules. What people are missing is that this isn't just some Twitch streamer. Momo is on competitive player and one of the best killers in the world. His win streak was against normies. Any killer player in Momo's skill tier could probably get a 1000-game win streak with pretty much any killer if they were playing every game to win. The win streak doesn't really point to the game being unbalanced as much as it does that the matchmaking isn't great to begin with and isn't going to work at all for someone that's so far above the player base skill-wise.
Also, competitive survivors rarely queue in public games as a foursome with the intent of doing everything they can to win. If you're a comp killer, the chances of getting matched into a game with survivors that will put up a fight is basically zero.
If Ja Morant randomly went from random court to random court challenging whoever to a game of 1 on 1, he could probably win 1000 in a row too.
"When using tournament rules"
And therein lies the problem. In order for the game to be balanced tournaments have to institute rules outside of the actual game, like restrictions on items/addons/kits etc. Meanwhile, nothing is stopping a tournament playing from entering the standard queue and ruining the game for everyone else.
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@Chilli_man2400 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3410171#Comment_3410171
Using his tombstone makes him strong. Having to ability to instantly kill anyone without having to hook them once.
Tombstone is actually pretty bad TBH. Generally, when you see that myers is taking a strangely large amount of time to get to tier 3, you should assume he has tombstone. Then slam gens, when he hits tier 3, jump into a locker if he starts chasing you instead of letting tombstone happen. By the time he gets to tier 3, he probably lost 3 gens, then he'll lose the other 2 in a couple of hooks, and then let him camp someone out of the game while 3 of you escape. Super "fun" and "engaging" game, but its really easy to counter.
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@For_The_People said:
@Reinami @Huge_Bush hi, I am a survivor main (about 1,000 hours on Nintendo switch) and probably by any metric would fit into the mediocre-at best with comical levels of looping ability. Not purely for bias reasons, but a combination of the fact that I’m ABSOLUTELY horrible at First person view games + also a terrible loner so would not have the heart to be a killer. However I like to read the forum and take different points of views. My initial thoughts as someone who pretty much gets stomped 8 or 9 out of 10 matches is to feel utter dismay at posts where suggestions of further nerfs to survivors are made.
I have come to understand the more subtle nuances especially at different levels of play however so it generally leaves me feeling quite helpless. The truth is I should ‘get good’ but I’m not sure I have it in me to become a Better looper if even after 1k hours I get downed in seconds of caught. My usual method of survival is to add value to my team in different ways (support perks, healing etc that make me an extended pair of hands for other more competent players).
Reading a lot killer main opinions like yours, although I still don’t always agree I find them to at least be based on reasonable arguments (as opposed to some killer main posts that are so unbiased and - at least to me - deluded to the point I wonder if they’re playing the same game).
it seems there is a big gap between what a high tier killer and lower tier killer can do when balancingX I wonder if the game had extra objectives for survivor to compensate? So for example, a killer with less pressure ability can have baked-in extra objectives for the survivors such as finding parts to Gen around the map (can encourage ‘item search’ perks) that need to be collected and paired with others before even working on a Gen etc?
I’m sure every idea will have a potential to be abused or a counter etc but I’m interested in ideas to keep the game going. I’m afraid that at the current level of nerfs, as fair or not as they may be for whatever point of view and level applied, will alienate and eventually remove players like me because we can’t “get good” and our other dimensions of play aren’t viable. I like this game too much and have made some amazing friends who are also of a similar mindset and (low) ability.
In general this is actually the case with several killers. For example pig has the traps, pinhead has the box, wesker and nemesis have infection etc. But i would worry that this would make killers all feel too "samey" in that way. I think what they really need is a killer to anchor balance around. The sad part is, they had it. Although i haven't tried him since the changes last patch, old hillbilly used to be this. His power was good, but not too good. His mobility was good, but not too good, his downing ability was good, but not too good. The only real issue he had was the insa-saw addons, but instead they gutted him.
If you look at traditionally very balanced games you'll see that when they have multiple characters, let's say a fighting game like street fighter. They pick a character to anchor their balance around. They design this character to be in the absolute middle of the pack in terms of balance. Then they basically inch everyone else as close to that as possible. They look at the bottom characters and know those ones need a buff and the top ones and that those need a nerf.
I don't disagree with the idea that nurse and blight and probably spirit need to be dealt with, just as i think trapper, and sadako, and freddy and so on need some love as well. At the same time, the balance needs to be addressed in a way that is most feasible. And i still think that is nerfing some of the insane loops that can spawn rather than trying to go and buff 80% of the killers. Better and easier to nerf the broken ones, and then tone down the power of survivors.
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@KingFieldShipper said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3409938#Comment_3409938
Your last point re: predropping may be the first thing I've ever agreed with you completely about.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3409931#Comment_3409931
This is all just conjecture though, we do not get the full stats. What matters is kill rate for ACCURATELY matched matches (no backfill and whethever range that is originally intended), per MMR bracket (whatever arbitrarily is defining low, medium, high), broken down per addons, which specifically is data they cant package into a nice little graph on twitter about. Only then can we meaningfully talk about about buffs or nerfs.
That said, any person should look at a 1k win streak and be like, "woah, this shouldn't be possible", regardless of balancing at average or high play, which is precisely why top play needs be kept in mind. Using your example - say they came out tomorrow that says blight with alch ring + c33 (for example) are severely underperforming with a kill rate of 37%, but are over performing with 88.69% kill rate in high mmr, the answer would be to change the addons regardless, no? Change doesn't even mean like "okay, the issue in average mmr is that survivors just aren't hindered enough, they are slowed down by 10% instead of 3%!". This is what I mean with keeping in mind the high mmr when considering balance.
But the true is reverse as well. Let's say all killers buffed and bridge the gap and we achieve a 60% kill rate, on the dot, across the entire cast in high mmr brackets. It would absolutely decimate the majority of the population playing the game because there are very little people in high mmr and those kill rates will shoot up massively. People will stop playing.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3409903#Comment_3409903
Multiple things can be true at once. I think blight basekit absolutely is fine. Wouldn't touch it, perfectly balanced. He has problematic addons imo, but that's not the point here. I also think tunneling is a problem too. I'm really not sure where I thought otherwise. But there is an obvious discrepancy of current anti-tunnel in the game (ie OTR/DS) of the top 3 as compared to someone like clown or trapper, and no one is going on 1k win streaks with tunneling, slugging, etc with killers like those strats.
So i'll be eagerly awaiting the nerf to survivors then, as Hens and his team have massive win streaks too.
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@KingFieldShipper said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3409864#Comment_3409864
Thanks for clarifying. I don't really agree with everything you have put down, but thanks for elaborating, pretty concisely, your position.
I don't have much longer of a break at work since it's crunch time but the gist of my thoughts is completely opposite to you - that you need to balance around average/low level play, with keeping in mind the high level play exists - meaning it's fine for nurse/blight/spirit to be strong but you can't go on 1k winstreaks.
I actually think a lot of your points are strictly a matchmaking and/or map issue and not even a balance issue (ie of perks and role), and that most issues would be solved by making maps smaller, and having a stricter matchmaking system. At the very least, it being an option. I think there is a sweet spot between waiting 2 hours in a queue and a match being found immediately that is completely inaccurate because you are in a backfill lobby, but we clearly aren't there, nor should I be thrown into lobbies of people who have absolutely no chance to deal with me.
If that is the case, then based on the data, blight is fine, because for average players he has a 57% kill rate and they balance for 60%. You can disagree with the 60% if you want, but that's what devs are balancing around, and so based on that metric, he is balanced and probably slightly underpowered.
If you are balancing for low level players while keeping high level in mind, you can't nerf blight, because his problem is he is hard to play. So there isn't any meaningful nerf you can do to nerf him in the high level while not nerfing low level, except maybe hug tech? But that would actually heavily hurt low level play as well because the main reason hug tech is still there is because he would bounce off of tons of stuff like crazy, so you would heavily hurt the low level players as well.
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@Bjario said:
Damn, sounds like they're finally called CHALLENGES for a reason.
I don't really see a problem with them being hard. But typically the level 1 ones are nowhere near this difficult.
Where i will disagree with you, is that i don't think the challenges should require you to do things that basically make you "throw the game" things like "unlock 5 chests" or w/e aren't really that good because 9 times out of 10 searching a chest is a bad idea. Or "hide withing x meters of the killer for x seconds" because you generally don't want to do that on purpose.
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@KingFieldShipper said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3409835#Comment_3409835
I'm not who you are replying to be re:
Do we balance around AVERAGE players, or HIGH MMR players. If we balance around HIGH MMR players, there are for more nerfs they need to do with survivors as a whole, while also nerfing blight and nurse.
What are your thoughts? I want to know your stance because I feel like I see you constantly switching positions (to reiterate, this is just how I feel your posts come across or read to me, and not saying you ever said this directly, because I feel like they are worded ambiguously) where sometimes I feel like you are advocating balancing around high mmr/high play, but other times, like now, I'm reading this as if you are trying to argue for the balance of low/average play. This is an assumption, which you know what they say about them, but I'm just going to ask directly, what are your thoughts. How do you want this game to be balanced?
My opinion is quite simple.
If the devs want this to be a competitive game where esports potentially is a thing, tournaments, ranking systems that matter etc. Then obviously you need to balance around the best of the best players.
If the devs want this game to be a casual "goof around with friends a bit" party game, then you balance around average players.
The biggest problem is DBD seems like it does neither. They obviously don't balance around top level players or 1k win streaks would never be possible. And they don't balance around the "goof around with your friends" because there is so much toxic ######### that you can do in this game "AS BOTH SIDES" that make the game super unfun for other people. Additionally, often times, the most effective way to WIN the game, is to actually play in the least fun way possible. If this was a party game, they would figure out what is fun and double down on that.
I personally am biased towards the top of the top players for several reasons:
- If the game is not balanced around the capabilities of the highest level players, then the high level players will bully the low level players (even with matchmaking) and eventually the game will die off.
- If the game is unbalanced at the highest level, there is nothing to strive for, and the game will eventually die off. It may take a long time, but it will happen. Imagine if chess was balanced in way that, at the lowest levels of play, the game is balanced 50/50, but at the highest level, white wins 70% of the games. Do you think chess would be as big of a deal today still?
- The top players are able to push the game to the limits, and often times beyond. Allowing you to see what is possible, making it actually easier to make balance decisions with them in mind.
That isn't to say that you completely IGNORE the low level players. But i say, you balance FOR and AROUND the high level players, while keeping in mind low level players exist. I think this video sums it up very well IMO when talking about TF2 and the" BASE JUMPER" item:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1p42KtZOCw&t=203sThe whole video is a good watch, but the timestamped bit shows exactly what i'm talking about.
For example, in DBD:
- Look at some of the crazy, jungle gym, into crazy main building with multiple god pallets and god windows, into killer shack, into another jungle gym, loops that good survivors can use to waste several minutes of a killers time, meanwhile the rest of their team is doing all the gens. It is so bad on some maps that you literally just don't chase survivors around entire sections of a map because doing so would mean you automatically lose.
- But now look at low level players, they predrop god pallets, wasting them, then get hit through them anyway.
- What if we nerfed those god loops and crazy main buildings? Is that going to actually hurt low level players? Not really, because they aren't abusing those structures to their fullest potential anyway.
The types of changes they keep making are things that actually hurt low level players, or buff top tier survivors like the healing changes, when there are obviously plenty of things they can do to make the game more fair for all skill levels. Camping is another thing they could address. It really only works against low level and solo queue survivors because they can't communicate and deal with it. But the SWF kill squads don't really care. So why not remove camping as a strategy because you are only going to be helping low level players, and you won't really be hurting top tier killers because they aren't getting much use out of it anyway.
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@luvcraft said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3409781#Comment_3409781
how in the world could you do that unless the killer was AFK? And which killer? If the killer was patrolling gens, he could kick and regress them faster than you could repair them, and every time he saw a gen that wasn't regressing he'd know you were nearby. Unless you were tapping gens, and then somehow sneaking all the way over to a far away gen while he looked around your old location for a long time, but surely he would figure that out after a few times. And it especially wouldn't work once you were down to the last 3 gens.
Also why wouldn't you or the killer go for the hatch?
Only thing i could imagine is it was a killer who was just sitting on the hatch waiting for the survivor to come by. Still happens from time to time.
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@Dogma_loki said:
If any survivor escaped a 1,000 matches in a row killer mains would be throwing absolute fits.
Because it is Blight everyone just shrugs their shoulders.
"Pretty good job so far!"
😕
Plenty of survivor teams that are doing massive amounts of "wins" as well.
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@sulaiman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3409375#Comment_3409375
So tell me, is the average survivor swf or solo? From the last stats, they are solo, and if you balance around the average solo survivor, yes, you still have to nerf blight, as well as several other killers.
The thing you showed is not the power of high ranking survivors, its the power of swf, and we all know its a problem for the game.
My god your bias is showing so hard. So we should ONLY balance the game around SOLO survivors, and ALSO the top tier killers?
Take a look at the kill rates again:
@McDoobz said:
In June, we brought major changes to the game. At the time, we stated that one of the main objectives behind the meta-shifting perk overhaul and base gameplay changes was to improve the overall kill rate (how many Survivors are killed each trial, on average). As stated in our most recent stats post , we did achieve that goal and as you’ll see in the below graphs, the kill rate continues to hover around the 59% to 61% range (up from a 51% to 53% range).
In the context of this new meta, many of you have been expressing that you’d like to see where each killer’s kill rate now stands. So, we’ve compiled the most recent data to share with you.
We’ve created two charts to help you visualize and analyze these stats:
- The first chart represents the kill rate broken down by killer, for all players (all Matchmaking Ratings), for the period of September 2022.
- The second chart also represents the kill rate broken down by killer for the same period, but only for players in the top 5% MMR.
Some things to keep in mind as you consult these charts:
- We rounded up some of the kill rates to make the charts below easier to read (only values ≥ 0.95 were rounded up). Scroll past the charts for exact kill rate values for each data set.
- It’s worth noting that many factors are taken into account when it comes to balancing killer powers and character perks, not only data.
- As always, we are monitoring our overall game balance on an ongoing basis and taking your feedback into account when evaluating whether or not design changes should be made. So please keep sharing your thoughts and experiences with us! We read you daily and relay your feedback to the appropriate people on a regular basis.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/GOYEKDMA1XC3/microsoftteams-image-2873-29.png
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/QBAVCNOU4QO5/microsoftteams-image-2875-29.png
EXACT KILL RATE & PICK RATE VALUES BY MMR
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/LRXX3PMFOM90/tablekr3.png
We hope you enjoy studying these numbers as much as we do!
Until next time...
The Dead by Daylight team
Devs have stated they balance around 60% kill rate. If you look at AVERAGE MMR, you'll see that blight is at 57% kill rate, which is slightly UNDERPOWERED from 60%, but i'd say +/- 3% is well within the range of normal. If you look at the top MMR, his kill rate is still only around 61% which isn't much different. Still within the range of balanced based on their stats.
Devs have also stated that SWF does not impact the stats very much (i don't believe them personally) but the point still stands that they claim the difference is very little between them.
So again, i ask you.
Do we balance around AVERAGE players, or HIGH MMR players. If we balance around HIGH MMR players, there are for more nerfs they need to do with survivors as a whole, while also nerfing blight and nurse.
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@I_CAME said:
You can check Otz's twitter if you are skeptical and want to verify. Do you think Blight should be nerfed? Thoughts? Is there a justifiable reason for why any killer should be this powerful? 1000 wins in a row just seems a bit ridiculous and difficult to defend. Even the great Magnus Carlsen never won more than 125 chess matches in a row.
and yes I am going to keep crying about this busted killer until he is finally nerfed.
If this and supaalf are a problem, then you feel this game should be balanced around the top level players. So then why is this possible?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtENJZ_z0zw&t=1sSo either:
1) This game should be balanced around top players, and we should nerf blight because of what you pointed out, AND ALSO, we should heavily nerf survivors because of the team i linked just now.
2) This game should be balanced around average level players, and blight is fine and also nurse needs a buff because she is by far the killer with the lowest kill rate in the game.
So which is it? If this blight is a problem, so are these survivors.
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@versacefeng said:
In this day and age it should be removed. Same for bloodlust.
Bloodlust is still necessary until they get rid of the ridiculous near infinites in several of the main buildings (mother's dwelling, chapel, etc.). Or stop spawning jungle gyms into shack, into more jungle gyms.
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@Unimatrix00 said:
Hey all,
I am trying to complete the "Scourge of the Plague" challenge in tome 7. The instructions from the challenge are as follows "With a single discharge of the Corrupt Purge action, hit at least 2 survivors as The Plague. Do this 2 times. Complete the challenge in a single trial," but I am running into difficulty. Firstly, I'm not 100% sure I even know what the challenge is asking of me. Is it asking that I hit two people with one stream of Corrupt Purge, or does it mean hit two people during the same Corrupt Purge charge? By charge, I mean the whole time The Plague holds onto the Corrupt Purge until it goes back to Vile Purge.
Anyway, assuming my assumption is right... How do I hit two people at once?
Any help would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks
Hit 2 people with a single stream/charge. This is really easy to do if you just hook someone and wait near it, then as they get unhooked you let it rip and hit them both.
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@Agent_Himbo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3407894#Comment_3407894
In not a single one of the games you listed you can lose individually while the rest of your team wins. I doubt you played them though, otherwise you would have known that, if you want I can educate you about it, like how in League of Legends you can carry 4 teammates and if you win, all 5 members of the team win, there's no such thing as getting a defeat all by yourself and losing LP while the other 4 players get a win. If in Fornite you die and you can't be revived anymore but one of your teammates makes it to the end, you're gonna get the same position your teammates did AND be rewarded for it. If in Deceive Inc you die early on but a teammate escapes with the case, you still get a winning screen, you're told that you won, and your character shows up in the car escaping.
Having a fragile ego is not an excuse to see a defeat screen and start pretending it's a win because somebody else won. That kind of creepy narcissistic behavior is typical of children who need to get a gift for themselves on somebody else's birthday.
It's ok to lose in a videogame. It's not ok to lie
Your team can definitely win while you are dead in CS:GO. That is the point i'm making, you see escaping as the only definition of "winning" when really its about how many of your team escapes. Just because you specifically die doesn't mean you lose. What about battle royale games where you play on teams? You can die, while your team actually goes on to win, would you still see that as you losing?
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@Agent_Himbo said:
Stop telling tunneled and facecamped players to just be happy they bought 3 random strangers time. They won the game at your expense, you get no reward, you're not given some medal for looping the killer for 5 gens but dying to NOED, BHVR doesn't send you a pony because you sat there being held hostage while a face camping Bubba stared into your soul.
I'm sorry you're so bad at the game the only way you have of winning is to take advantage a teammate is being tunneled and that's why you got a free escape, it's beyond disgusting to tell the player that got a loss, barely any bloodpoints and had a bad time to just be happy that You escaped.
If you think people play videogames to see random strangers win and get a defeat screen, then why don't you play killer and let all 4 survivors escape all the time? Oh right, literally nobody tells killers to enjoy losing because 4 random strangers won, nobody tells the crying baby killer to take pleasure on the wins of random strangers.
I don't play videogames so other people win while I lose, i don't live vicariously through other people's victories, i feel bad for people who do.
I'm going to say this in the most respectful way possible.
If you truly feel this way, this game probably isn't for you, or maybe at least survivor. Playing survivor is a team game, you can't win by yourself and you need to work together as a team. Killer is the solo role, so maybe that is more for you. But if 3 of your teammates escape, and you die, and you don't feel good about your team winning, then this game isn't for you. This would be like complaining that you have to pass the ball to a teammate while playing basketball or soccer.
Since you feel this way about teammates, i would suggest you stay away from games designed around a team working together such as:
- DBD (survivor side)
- League of Legends
- DotA
- CS:GO
- Overwatch
- Rainbow Six
- etc.
And stick to the games that encourage more solo play such as:
- DBD (Killer side)
- Fortnite (solo)
- Pubg (solo)
- Chess
- Quake FFA/Arena modes
- Pretty much any fighting game.
These are the games where individual performance matters most and you don't have to rely on a team.
Good luck though, and i hope you find what you are looking for.
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@Ἥφαιστος said:
Why isn't Valve dealing with review exploitation? They should legitimately be banned from Steam for review bombing Dead by Daylight. Absolutely disgusting.
This idea of "review bombing" is stupid in the sense that, companies use it as an excuse to defend their bad product. How many movies come out now that are terrible, and people give it bad reviews, and then they claim "review bombing" and "racism/sexism" or some such other nonsense instead of "maybe my movie is just bad"
Review "bombing" is just a large number of people giving the review they think the thing deserves. In general it seems like a coordinated effort because in sense, it is. But only such that when people think something is bad they are more likely to raise their voice about it than when they think it is good. Making it appear like these people are all coordinating when bad reviews come in and not good reviews, when really it is just human nature.
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@KenwanObinobi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3407849#Comment_3407849
They have nerfed the complete killer's gen control capability.
By nerfing 3 gens, they made it easy for the survivors to finish the last gen and escape but they also nerfed the control the killer has on the generators.
Now the killer cannot apply pressure without camping/tunneling.
All the games i have won as killer (other the nurse and blight) have been with the camp/tunnel strategy.
Against good survivors, 3 gens are done by the end of the 1st chase.
2nd gen is done during the 2nd chase.
So you have 2 to 3 hooks and there is one gen left... at this point, only nurse can win.
The gen pressure should be on the killer side, not on the survivor's side. There are 4 survivors, it is their job to organize their team to complete the gens despite the killer's pressure.
ATM that is the survivor that applies pressure on the killer that has to prevent the gen to be done, against 4 survivors, while it doesn't not have the tools to do it.
I don't necessarily disagree with these things, but i'm merely responding to the points raised by the person i quoted.
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@Unequalmitten86 said:
It's the truth if actually read the comments from the PTB feedback both killers and survivors said the healing nerfs and DH were to much and so one but they went ahead with them anyway. Right now their bulk players are Steam players. People are literally DC's and dying on hooks purposely. The game is a waste to play right now. You really can't get through a round unless you are a killer.
Dead hard change was needed. The healing nerfs were only too much for altruistic healing, which they fixed by basically making personal healing slow. They nerfed 3 genning. Why are you mad again?
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@LuthirFontaine said:
Killers, why do you still play like there is money on the line when there are dcers. Last game I had two people dc at 5 gens the killer still slugged for 4k.
Bro please have mercy, no way we are going to win this with two solos at least let's get some bp for all of us.
For every person that would want me to let them escape, or do a few gens or farm with them. There are an equal number of people who want me to just end the game as fast as possible. So there's no pleasing anyone. Better to just play it hard, and get everyone out of the match as fast as possible.
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Added it to the OP, thanks for posting this!
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@HoodedWildKard said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3402869#Comment_3402869
I can agree that nerfing stuff that is mainly abused by high skill survs is a good shout, long as it doesn't affect less skilled survs. Vaults on garden of joy certainly need sorting out.
And I didn't say that tournament players don't s**t on regular players, I was saying that there aren't enough of them to make it an issue. DBD's Matchmaking system is pretty bad at matching same level players together but you won't repeatedly see these super high level survivors unless you are a super high level killer. Sure pub killers will get stomped by them occasionally I just don't think that's a huge problem.
Really can't agree with your last paragraph though. I've been playing for over 600 hours and maybe 350 of which on surv. And I really can't loop for s**t, I've watched video tutorials on it. I run amazing chases occasionally, but usually only against baby killers. You can't get to that standard of play overnight. I frequently come up against survivors who can and I'm always impressed by how they can make a pallet at the last possible second and make me hit wall when as surv I always take a hit from across the vault. That kind of skill is extremely difficult and time consuming to build. Mechanically I understand how it works but the timing is so insanely tight it takes a long time to get good at it.
Just because something is rare, doesn't mean it shouldn't be fixed or that it is fair. Imagine there was a killer offering that:
- Made all survivors permanently exposed.
- Permanently reveals the aura of all survivors to the killer.
- Increases the killer's movement speed by 50%.
- Made all survivors moriable immediately without hooks.
But then, the offering was given a 0.01% chance to appear in the bloodweb. This would mean that, on average, you'd see this offering in one out of every 1000 games you would play. Would this offering be fair?
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3402869#Comment_3402869
"And the worst part about it is, nobody has been able to show me a video of these types of things being relegated to ONLY THE BEST SURVIVORS IN THE WORLD. Nothing they do in these videos or tournaments is anything that special outside of heavy communication and organization. There isn't any crazy mechanical skill they are doing that couldn't easily be learned by most players after playing for 50 hours."
You've essentially just said that Team Eternal has no skill and anyone could do what they do.
Yeah, I think every reasonable person can agree that you've managed to find the worst takes. I don't think a single person has even remotely agreed with you. Maybe, instead of continuing to double-down, you should think about WHY several people (some of which, iirc, have comp experience) have vehemently disagreed with you.
That's not what i am saying. Generally, whenever someone presents a video like this, the claim is always: "but they are comp players" or "they are the best team in the world" as if that somehow justifies that they should win every game they play. I'm simply saying, if we took some really good, but not "Best in the world" survivors, and let them play games with each other for, i dunno, 10, 20 hours, give them coms, i bet they'd win the vast majority of their games too.
Additionally, people will take these videos and say: "these are the best survivors in the world" and say its fine, but then use videos of supaalf to talk about why nurse needs nerfs. Which is pure hypocrisy.
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@Emoba said:
Kek, we literally had a thread about people like you last week involving this video. This community is so predictable.
So you aren't going to make any kind of constructive comment? Just spew some "kek" which kinda shows the type of person you are. Maybe stick to "That site" where those kind of terms come from.
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@HoodedWildKard said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3402414#Comment_3402414
Instead of addressing my actual point, you're diverting the conversation. A tongue in cheek exaggeration doesn't prove your point.
We weren't talking about individual killer balance, which killers were strong or weak or anything. You were complaining that survivors are too powerful, and your evidence is a tiny sample of the very very very top end of the game. And that is a flawed sample. And tbh your evidence showed that a d tier killer, skillfully played could compete with absolute best survivors.
"When are people going to realize that we desperately need to do something about the kinds of things survivors can do and how difficult it is to even get a single hook against good survivors?"
^^ this directly implies that the survivor role needs to be weaker. I'm saying that is absolutely not the case. You balance for an even game around the top 1% then you shaft the bottom 99%. Because this is not, by it's very definition, an even game. I'd like to see you respond to that point without hyperbole pls.
This argument seems even more silly because tournaments can balance themselves. Why change game balance at a fundamental level when you can simply impose rules? No duplicate perks, no add ons etc to create an even match. No need to mess up the low-mid mmr games.
And outside of tournament? Yh some highish-mid mmr killers will be unlucky enough to get matched with these guys and get rofl stomped by them. But not often enough to affect them unduly. Anyone who is getting consistently and repeatedly smashed as killer is in the wrong mmr bracket and has probably been using lazy tactics to 4k numerous mid teams and solo q lobbies. Suddenly they are seeing sweaty survs well above their skill level? They either get better or drop mmr. And tbh they've been sweating 4ks by any means necessary? No reason why they shouldn't play survs with the same attitude.
Meanwhile getting repeatedly smashed as survivor seems to be acceptable in your eyes.
So repeatedly getting smashed as killer because you went against a high mmr 4 stack is completely acceptable? If you think that is the case, then you truly are biased and beyond hope. At that point, why not just make the killer an NPC and make everyone happy?
But better still, you are assuming i think survivors need to be weaker in a way that hurts low level players. Watch the clip in this video here talking about the "Base Jumper" item in TF2. I timestamped the clip, it goes for about a minute.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1p42KtZOCw&t=203sThis right here is exactly what i am talking about. Now think about how you can get some crazy setups in this game, or certain main buildings that are just nuts in the hands of good survivors. You can have crazy windows spawn into pallet gyms, into shack, into unmindgameable god pallet setups. And with just 1 or 2 pallets these top tier survivors can waste so much of a killer's time. So why not nerf these things?
These low mmr survivors aren't using these things like this to begin with. If you nerf these crazy setups, you aren't going to be hurting these low mmr survivors, because they don't even know how to effectively use these setups anyway, and they just drop the pallet immediately and run off and probably get hit anyway then go self care in a corner for 60 seconds.
On the flip side, everyone seems to admit that low mmr survivor play is miserable. So, nerf these godly setups, and add more pallets to the map. You'll "Nerf" survivors at high mmr by nerfing their ability to waste a killers time to the point where you literally don't even bother chasing them if they go into certain parts of a map (looking at you fun bus, or asylum main building) because if you even take a single chase there against a good survivor, you are completely throwing the game away because they can easily run you for 5 gens. But, in turn, you'll also make the game better for the low mmr survivors. Killers in low MMR aren't doing crazy mindgames at every single pallet, nor have the skills necessary to exploit the weaknesses of these weaker tiles on these lower skilled players.
If we are going to say that "its ok because these players play in tournaments and not in regular queue" that is entirely untrue. You can often see hens and his team/friends play in pub games in order to create content and videos and stream. If you want to make that argument, then those player should not be allowed to play in pub queues at all.
And the worst part about it is, nobody has been able to show me a video of these types of things being relegated to ONLY THE BEST SURVIVORS IN THE WORLD. Nothing they do in these videos or tournaments is anything that special outside of heavy communication and organization. There isn't any crazy mechanical skill they are doing that couldn't easily be learned by most players after playing for 50 hours.
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@Saiph said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3401960#Comment_3401960
I know that you're trying to tell that "winrates do not tell the truth" but the stats are actually surprisingly accurate when you factor in pickrate. Imo it's your way to interpret stats that is very misleading.
Nurse winrate is 52%, ie. still above 50%. That's not "MASSIVELY UNDERPOWERED" at all, you realize she still wins more than she loses right.
If you look at pickrates you'll actually realize Nurse has among the best pickrates in the game ( 5.4% pickrate vs 3.4% for the average killer) and especially the highest pickrate at high MMR (6.1%). Note: Wesker does not count at the timing of these stats coincides with the RE chapter release.
You should always look at pickrate when looking at winrates. It is very naive to look at winrates alone, especially in a game where half the killers cost money.
Do you notice how:
- 4/4 of your "slightly overpowered" killers are paid ones ?
- 9/10 of your "underpowered" killers are free ones?
Usually you should look at pickrates and winrates combined. Nurse has 2 to 3 times higher pickrate than Freddy, Sadako, Cenobite, so comparing Nurse vs. Sadako on a 10% winrate difference is completely irrelevant. If 1/10th of Nurse players happen to be new with her - which makes sense since she's one of the default killers available completely for free - then that alone would likely explain the winrate difference.
The stats don't show that Nurse is underpowered at all. She has among the best pickrates in the game consistently, especially at high MMR (most picked killer with higher than average winrate). This seems to indicate that Nurse is strong at high MMR and weak at average MMR, which confirms common knowledge.
Demo has one of the worst winrates despite being a licensed killer, with 2x lower pickrate than most other licensed killers. Considering he's not available anymore, the low pickrate is expected, but it also means that only veteran players play him and so we would expect a very high winrate, yet, he has only 56%. So he might be the actual weakest killer in the game. (Twins and Trickster are candidates too, maybe also Billy and Trapper.)
The devs are balancing for a 60% kill rate. So thats your baseline. I dunno why it is, but that's what they chose. And pick rates doesn't show what you think it does. Just because something is picked more doesn't mean its going to immediately change the stats.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3402505#Comment_3402505
I don't believe it is possible to balance around both the average player and the high-level player.
You have to commit to one or the other. Using an example you mentioned, Nurse. Kill Rates would have us believe that Nurse needs extensive buffs in order to compete with the rest of the Killers. Tournaments have taught us that she needs nerfs in order to be brought in line with the rest of the cast.
We cannot both buff Nurse's power and nerf her power at the same time. We have to commit, one way or the other. BHVR chose to prioritize the high-level play on that one.
Yes you can, the main problem is she is hard to play, they could make her easier to play mechanically while reducing the effectiveness of her power.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3402416#Comment_3402416
Funnily enough, I was also involved in TF2 way back when.
Here's the issue. DBD isn't TF2.
If you balance the game around competitive play, the game WILL die. The kill rates show that the average Survivor isn't very good. If you buff Killers to be able to deal with comp SWF's, every single one of those players will quit since their matches will be completely hopeless.
You can balance for the top %. You can take their opinions and struggles into account, for sure. You can't make the game about them though. That's a quick way to make sure there isn't a game anymore.
See, and this is where you misunderstand the whole point.
Why can't we do both? Why can't we make the game more fair at the high level for killers, while making it better for survivors at the low level? You already admit to yourself that "kill rates show the average survivor isn't very good" i see their gameplay as being just as important as the top level players. So why can't we fix both?
For example, lets look at some stuff
What are some of the things low skill survivors do that high level players don't do:
- They group together on gens because they are afraid of separatin
- They aren't very good at looping and tend to waste god pallets/setups too quickly
- They don't know how to deal with camping killers.
- They spend too much time doing things that aren't relevant to the objective (I.E. Dull totems, searching chests for items)
What are some things we can do to make these things better while balancing high level play?
- Make it so survivors grouping up together is actually a good thing. The reason its bad is because it is less efficient. When grouped you do generators "Faster" yes, but at a 15% efficiency penalty per survivor. On top of that, it allows the killer to pressure multiple survivors. But in high level play, survivors split up, and this actually makes it really hard for the killer to get a footing and will almost always result in the killer losing 3+ gens in their first chase. But, if gens were actually SLOWER/less efficient when solo, but MORE efficient and faster together, it would actually make the low tier survivors be stronger because they already group up, and it will fix things a bit at the high level because now survivors HAVE to group up, allowing killers to pressure more survivors at once and slow the game down easier.
- Why are there even "god" pallets to begin with. What if every pallet was about as strong as a pallet gym? Where every single pallet is mindgameable in some way, then you can add more of them. Instead of spawning a map with 10 pallets, 3 of which are god pallets that are crucial for high level survivors, why not spawn 16 or 20 pallets and every single one is completely mindgamable by the killer? Low MMR survivors, aren't going against killers who can do crazy mindgames anyway so it would actually buff them quite a bit because now they are punished much less for "wasting" pallets. Where now high level players actually have to win mind games in order to be "safe" they can't just have godly setups. Because low tier survivors aren't using those godly setups effectively.
- What if camping was removed from the game completely and made impossible. Simplest fix would be to make hooks work like PH, if you are too close they respawn somewhere else. There are plenty of other things they can do. But hard camping is rarely effective in high level play anyway so it wouldn't affect them as much.
- What if chests actually gave items that were worth something. Maybe instead of chests being completely random, have them have some kind of icon or something on the outside so you know what is in it. Or maybe have chests have different "tiers" so if you do a "brown" one you get a brown item, but a purple one contains a purple item maybe with some crazy addons. Basically though, do something to make them worthwhile, maybe the items found in chests are twice as effective/have twice the charges?
These are just some simple ideas, but the general point remains the same. Why can't we do both?
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3402139#Comment_3402139
You definitely aren’t facing Team Eternal or any top tier survivors often. You’re just not as good a killer as you think. And you’re certainly not good enough to face them.
You don't have to be the "best in the world" to be doing this kind of stuff though. Nothing they did in the video was particularly special. Its simply, just doing gens and being efficient with time. There wasn't any super crazy play, or dodge that suddenly made everyone go "OOOOOOH MAN!!! THAT WAS CRAZY" or anything like that. And if you disagree, timestamp me a video in comp play where a top tier survivor team did some crazy thing that your typical player wouldn't be able to also do.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3401960#Comment_3401960
Cenobite - His Possessed Chains should do more and his Box should do less.
Sadako - The Condemned playstyle needs to go, in return, lower the TP cooldown to TV's from 100 seconds to 60.
Wesker - Infection should be paused post-unhook until a Survivor does a Conspicuous Action.
Freddy - Honestly, he needs another rework, we all know that.
Nurse - She needs to be less punishing to pick up and learn.
Trickster - Make him playable on Console. Let him hold Main Event.
Hillbilly - Rework his collision. Give him his old add-ons, minus insta-saw.
Demogorgon - Ideally, let me rework him. If not, increase Shred's Range and increase his Portal Travel Speed.
Doctor - Reduce Shock Detonation slightly.
Trapper - Make Traps spawn with X meters of the center of the map. No more Traps in Narnia.
Blight - Make him slightly easier to pick up and play. Reduce his cooldown from timing out during a Slam?
Twins - Make Charlotte able to recall Victor after 20 seconds.
Deathslinger - Reduce his TR back to it's old value.
Huntress - Reduce Lullaby to 40 meters.
Points for at least sticking to your convictions that we should balance around average players at least. Most people try to weasel their way out of the argument somehow when i point out that nurse is by far the worst killer in the game when you look at average players and she needs massive buffs, and that sadako needs nerfs given that it is pretty "known" that nurse is actually the best killer in the game, and sadako is super bottom tier outside of the 1 playstyle.
I will say i disagree that we should balance FOR average players. Any competitive game with an longevity never balances for the average players, they balance for TOP tier players, while keeping in mind that low tier players exist. One of my favorite examples is this video, i put the timestamp at the part that i think is most relevant here, but the whole video is worth a watch.
Now the general question though is, why would you balance for top tier players? Because they are the ones who are going to exploit something to its fullest. Look at games like League of Legends for example. If a top tier player exploits some champion to their fullest and is able to just dominate every game with them, low tier players will see that and emulate them. Yeah, they might not be as mechanically good at it as they are. But generally, they are still going to be giving themselves a massive advantage playing some broken thing when playing with their peers. Additionally, it gives you something to strive for and makes mastery of the game worth it.
Why sink thousands of hours into the game, if at the highest level the game's balance is a complete joke? There isn't any point in dedicating time to it. Sure maybe you get people to come in, play for 30 or 40 hours and then leave, but you want to encourage that longevity. The people who stick around stream the game, and bring in new players, they make content for it, and they keep the game alive. They tell their friends about it, and play games with them, bringing in new players, and new revenue, and the cycle continues. But if the game isn't worth sticking around for, people won't do that, and you'll always be cycling in players who play for <100 hours, and then cycle out. Eventually you, run out of players, and your game will die.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1p42KtZOCw&t=203s -
@HoodedWildKard said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3401909#Comment_3401909
Average.
Games are for people to enjoy. And you want to make sure the maximum number of players enjoy them.
If DBD had a big, thriving esports community worth hundreds of thousands of dollars then perhaps it'd be more of an issue.
But it doesn't, sure there are tournaments but they impose their own restrictions on the games to provide balance. Asymmetric multiplayer games are an absolute nightmare to balance and in all honesty you're never going to make it completely even. Such a tiny pool of games, featuring the absolute best players on the game such as in this video is not an accurate objective look at the game's balance as a whole.
At the end of the day dbd is at heart a casual game, something for horror fans, people who enjoy something a bit different. Sure some people who play the game take it extremely seriously, but they are a minority, one that could not financially support the game on their own. Rebalancing the game specifically to accommodate the absolute best players in the world it is surv? Not a good idea imo. It could drive away the majority of the player base.
I've always found these forums extremely elitist. Which is to be expected, forums will be mostly dedicated players. But a lot of people on here forget, survs have a rough time at low and mid mmr. And tbh as killer I have a pretty easy time of things, even against very experienced survivor teams. I'd probably get thrashed by the survs in this video but hey, they are the pinnacle of skill in this game. The kicker is I've only been playing since august last year racked up maybe 25 days playtime, recently some of the survivor teams I've dunked on have had players with 300 DAYs solid play time. Surv requires a extreme amount of technical skill and game knowledge to play well. And even with all that they still barely broke even against deathslinger of all killers, a killer that's been notoriously nerfed and is D tier if I remember correctly? And that was when all restrictions were removed interestingly.
And, much as I love this game, I don't play it as much anymore, because my regular swf mates eventually lost patience with it because they are fed up with dying all the time as survivors. I have tried to get new people into the game and they have either refused to try the game at all because the learning curve is reputedly brutal, or tried it and given up after 48 hours playtime because they died 20 games in a row. That is not a trend that should be encouraged. What the Devs should focus on is making the game more accessible for new players. Improve the tutorials to let newer players know things like how to loop, ones that explain each killer power, killer instinct etc.
If you read my post above, let me know what your changes will be to nerf sadako and bring her more in line with balanced killers like spirit, and which ways you are going to buff the nurse who is by far the worst killer in the game, and blight as well who is pretty far down there with trapper.
You may think i am joking, but if you truly believe we should balance around average players, the data shows this very thing. So if you believe this, then stick to it.
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@C3Tooth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3401909#Comment_3401909
Should be balanced around average skill players.
Because Im sure you and I are average skill players, which you and I should have more benefits from.
Alright then, so we balance around and for average skill players. Based on that, we need to take a look at the statistics for the AVERAGE player base and see which killers need buffs and nerfs based on that. And if you believe this statement that we should balance around and for the average skill players, that means, that based on the latest statistics we have for kill rates, we need to:
The following killers are slightly overtuned and need to be nerfed:
- Cenobite
- Sadako
- Wesker
- Freddy
The following killers are REALLY underpowered and need MASSIVE buffs:
- Nurse (by far the worst killer in the game)
- Trickster
- Hillbilly
- Demogorgon
- Doctor
The following killers are slightly underpowered and need some slight buffs:
- Trapper
- Blight
- Twins
- Deathslinger
- Huntress
And the rest are probably fine within a +/- 2% kill rate.
So, what major buffs do you think we need to do to pump up the numbers of nurse and blight so they have a higher kill rate. And what changes do you think should be made to Sadako to bring her more in line with some of the more balanced killers like spirit?
All joking aside, by now you are probably realizing my point right?
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3401909#Comment_3401909
Balanced AROUND or balanced FOR?
I see both statements as mostly the same. Let's imagine 2 scenarios.
1) Something is super OP when playing in low MMR, but really weak when playing in high MMR. If you balance around high level players, you should buff this thing. If you balance around low level players, you should nerf this thing
2) The opposite, something is really weak in low MMR games, but really OP in high MMR games. If you balance around low level players, you should buff this thing, if you balance around high level players, you should nerf this thing.
Obviously there are some nuances there. I think generally we can all agree that you should at the very least try to do a bit of both. In the first scenario, there may be things you can do that make it better in high level play, while weakening it in low level play. For example, you could buff that thing, but maybe make it harder to use effectively.
But for this i'm talking about in the broad sense. If you can't balance that way, and you had to make a choice, which choice do you make for each scenario?
Basically, if you HAVE to make a change to improve gameplay for high level players, but doing so will make the game worse for average players, do you still do it. What about vice versa? Making the gameplay experience better for average players, but it would make it worse for high level players. Do you do it?
You can imagine that in those scenarios all the players are equal MMr
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@HoodedWildKard said:
These are some of the best survivors in the world, who incidentally knew what killer they were going up against beforehand. Against 2 mechanically weak killers.That's not a good thing to base game balance on.
99.99% of the player base does not and cannot play like this.
So i'll present to you the same question that i asked earlier that has yet to be answered by anyone so far.
Simple.
Do you think the game should be balanced around average skill players, or top tier high skill players?
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I'll take a look at that when i get some time, but already reading it i see:
One counter-argument against previous tournament stats is that there are various loadout restrictions in place for both roles.
But, i'm willing to watch and listen to the argument where its stated they generally are using the same things you see in regular matches. Do you have videos of the matches somewhere?
I think actually seeing the matches would help me get a better grasp of it. Additionally its mentioned that basically most matches were nurse spirit and blight. So that brings into point my main thing is that those are really the only viable killers. I'm assuming this was before the spirit nerfs as well, so i'd imagine if such a tournament were run today you wouldn't see her nearly as much as the other 2.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3401830#Comment_3401830
Pretty sure they compete in tournaments where Killers DO win.
Show me a tournament that:
- Plays the standard rules of the game (kills vs escapes) and not some point system
- That doesn't heavily handicap the survivors in some way (no duplicate perks, items etc.)
- Survivors are a 4 man team that regularly play/practice together (no randoms)
- The killer actually wins the game by killer 3 or 4 survivors.
- The survivors are at least nearly as good as these guys (top 100 for example)
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@Pulsar said:
These are literally the best Survivors in the entire world.
Comparing them to anyone else is actual lunacy.
You will not find anyone even CLOSE to their level in public games.
Match them against the top killer in the world, and the match will likely go similar. Even in the video, they specifically went out of their way to find other top tier players.
@Halloulle said:
... bro uses the top 0.0001% as baseline. pog. When's the last time Eternal even lost a set?
But seriously, do you really think there are more than a handful of other players among the entire playerbase who can even compete with Eternal?
@CatnipLove said:
Yeah, this thread is pretty misleading. Most Killer players will never even play against a professional team. Let alone one of, if not the strongest team in the world.
Let me ask you a question here, and it is a simple 1 or 2 word answer.
Do you think this game should be balance around average skilled players, or top tier players?
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3401301#Comment_3401301
Well, I agree with you. But rarely does this lead to anything resembling introspection of their own gameplay.
The same thing happens when killers overly rely on camping/tunneling/3 genning to win a lot of games. They certainly will inflate their own mmr and post here about struggling or sweating every match because of it.
But a lot of them will just use that to claim 'you have to play like that to even have a chance', 'killer needs to be buffed', and/or 'survivors need nerfed'.
While i could get behind the argument about the bug, saying:"
Camping/Tunneling/3 genning "inflates" your MMR. That isn't actually accurate. If using those strategies "inflates" your MMR. Then the would imply that those strategies are the most effective to be using
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@jesterkind said:
For the record, the dev update said you get activations of Dead Hard via being unhooked Instead of getting unhooks, not in addition. So based on the wording, there is a hard limit of two Dead Hard uses per survivor, and they have to be staggered between hook states instead of used at the survivor's discretion. It's a huge nerf.
Similarly, it's worth mentioning that CoB and OC weren't chosen frequently "because killers have no other perks", but because they enabled the 3-gen camping strategy, which was obviously unhealthy and warranted being nerfed. Pain Resonance is a different story, I'll grant you that, but CoB and OC did need to be nerfed. It wasn't arbitrary.
+100% speed on CoH is slightly concerning, but that's really the only thing to be concerned about in this patch. It still can't be used to self heal or chain with medkits, and medkits themselves are substantially weaker, so at bare minimum the self-heal problem has been fixed.
There's very few good gen regression/defense perks left. And the couple that are left are already starting to see complaints.
Lets look at the perks for gen defense at this point:
- Call of Brine
- Corrupt Intervention
- Dead Man's Switch
- Deadlock
- Eruption
- Grim Embrace
- Hex: Huntress Lullaby
- Hex: Pentimento
- Hex: Ruin
- Jolt
- Merciless Storm
- Oppression
- Overcharge
- Pop goes the Weasel
- Scourge Hook: Gift of Pain
- Scourge Hook: Pain Resonance
- Thanatophobia
Now lets look at the ones that are, after the next patch, are useless, or going to be useless, and why.
- Call of Brine - Default gen regression is 0.25 charges per second (a gen is 90 charges) CoB makes that 0.3125 charges per second. Which means to have a full 89 second gen regress basekit takes 356 seconds. And with CoB will now take 284.8 seconds. What a complete joke of a perk now.
- Eruption - Keeping eruption at 10 % total was a good change, but the reason eruption used to be strong, was because landing it, meant you downed a survivor, and if you hit survivors with it, you block them from repairing for around how long it would take you to hook the survivor you just downed, and start running over to the gen you are on. Now all it does is save you 9 seconds off the gen they were on, and show their aura. Meaning if you go for the downed survivor, you they will regain that 9 seconds before you even hook them, and the aura reading is useless. It only encourages slugging builds really, and the setup for it is too long for it to be useful now.
- Grim Embrace - What a complete joke of a perk, after hooking each survivor, you block every gen for 40 seconds and get to see where the obsession is. All this does, when it even actually activates in a situation that you want it to (I.E. The last survivor you chased isn't your obsession) it is super short and easy to just hide it out. Because you are blocking every single gen, so what else are survivors going to do? It technically saves you time, but it saves you time in a way that doesn't really benefit you and is easily countered. At BEST the perk is going to let you chase and down a single survivor without having gen progress happen which isn't really going to make much of a difference in a 12 hook game.
- Hex: Huntress Lullaby - Another complete joke of a perk, all it does is hurt low tier survivors. But even then, it takes so long to build up to being powerful, that by the time you do, the perk is already gone anyway. Compare the build up of this perk, with the build up of devour hope and you'll realize how useless this perk is.
- Hex: Ruin - Similar to CoB, base regression is simply too weak, maybe if base regression was stronger this would be good, but its too weak for what little power it gives, and on top of that, it can be cleansed. MAYBE if this wasn't a Hex perk, it might be decent for some passive regression, but that's still a big maybe.
- Merciless Storm - Completely joke of a perk, any decent survivor is hitting those skill checks, and even then if they don't the punishment is basically nothing, you get barely enough time to walk over to the gen and chase them off, but again, they can just hide out the perk, and now you either spend time looking for them, and the other 3 survivors finish gens, or you leave, and the survivor finishes the gen anyway.
- Oppression - This perk is another one that MIGHT be decent, if it didn't have some massive cooldown. Why does this perk even HAVE a cooldown at all? At most the cooldown for this thing should be 30 seconds, but even that is pushing it IMO. In general though, good survivors are hitting that skill check anyway, and as mentioned before, base regression sucks anyway, so the only real benefit is the skill check.
- Overcharge - Base regression sucks, and you are making it suck even more? And then its barely as good as the new CoB. The skill check again, will be hit easily by good survivors, and the worst part is, it doesn't even counter gen tapping because the skill check will "follow" the survivor, and allow them to hit it while they are getting chased off the gen, meaning you can't even use it to counter gen tapping. MAYBE if the skill check didn't follow the survivor, and it didn't start at < 100% regression it might be DECENT.
- Scourge Hook: Gift of Pain - With these new changes, survivors are more likely to just stay injured anyway. But this perk is so easily countered. As soon as you realize the killer has it, you just heal up, and then force the killer to hit you by body blocking for someone, and now it is gone. Even then, 16% penalty makes a 90 second gen take 107 seconds, or 17 seconds longer, which in the grand scheme of things, isn't that much longer, especially when there is an easy way to avoid it and remove it.
- Thanatophobia - Complete joke of a perk since its nerf. It is only good on really 1 killer, and the only reason it is good on that 1 killer (plague) is to basically force survivors to cleanse and actually give you a power. It is damn near required on her otherwise you are just an m1 killer with 4 injured survivors the whole game and then what is the point. Even with 3 survivors injured though, it gives 6% penalty to repairs, which makes a 90 second gen take 95.75 seconds. What a complete joke of a perk, all for 3 injured survivors? And if you get the 4th, all it does is make one of them heal really quick and you lose the big penalty.
So now the completely useless ones are removed, what does that leave us with:
- Corrupt Intervention
- Dead Man's Switch
- Deadlock
- Hex: Pentimento
- Jolt
- Pop goes the Weasel
- Scourge Hook: Pain Resonance
Now of those, which ones are simply DECENT or SITUATIONAL:
- Corrupt Intervention - The problem with corrupt is the same as it has always been, all it does is make it so you won't lose 3 gens at the end of your first chase, now you'll only lose 1 or 2, then the perk is completely gone and you have no perk for the rest of the game. If it had some other effect, maybe like lethal pursuer where it increased the duration of gen blocking perks by some number of seconds, it might get a bit more value. Additionally, it isn't actually as good as lethal pursuer because good survivors can hide out a significant portion of the timer, or sneak by the killer and start doing gens. If you run to the blocked gens, where the survivors probably are, good chance is they'll sneak by you. If you defend the unblocked gens, good change they'll just wait out the timer, and you basically bought "2 extra minutes" of game time, but with no progress happening on either side.
- Dead Man's Switch - Dead man's switch is really only good when paired with Pain Res, it COULD be good when paired with oppression if that didn't have a 6 year cooldown. But the main problem is, getting survivors off gens when you aren't a handful of specific killers isn't easy when you are probably on the other side of the map. And on top of that, the gen blocking starts taking effect immediately after you hook the person, meaning that, by the time you walk to another gen a survivor is repairing, you probably spend 10-15 of the 30 seconds. Then in blocks the gen, now what, good job, you just blocked a gen that nobody was working on anyway. So the value there is pretty minimal.
- Hex: Pentimento - Boons hard counter this, because it really is only good when paired with Hex: Plaything. Which, good players will often just completely ignore, because they know you will have pentimento with it, but even with that perk, activating pentimento is actually quite hard. You have to: Hook a survivor, then THEY have to cleanse the totem after they get unhooked, or some other survivor has to after 90 seconds, assuming anyone even sees it (plaything has a low impact against good players generally since most killers are loud AF anyway) and then you have to walk back to the totem and activate it. That is assuming that the survivors don't have a boon to make it so you can't activate it. THEN when you activate it, survivors will know where the totem is because they see the giant blob that shows them where the Hex was at when it was cleansed anyway, so it likely won't last long.
- Jolt - Jolt is highly map and killer dependent. If you are playing a killer who generally downs survivors with their ability you will get no value from this perk. Generally this is good on the "weaker" killers, but then those killers are already having to 3 gen anyway, so giving a 7.2 second gen regression on a few gens near you when you down someone isn't going to be adding any tremendous value. Because similar to eruption, all you did was buy yourself a few seconds to pick up the survivor you just downed and hook them.
- Pop goes the Weasel - This perk was heavily nerfed to be "current progress" what a complete joke, but this is where we are at. This perk is only decent when you factor in the fact that you get the 2.5% from the base kit plus the 20% current progress (no idea which applies first, but lets say it gives you the best version) that means that a gen at 45 seconds, is going to lose 11.25 seconds of progress. So really, the perk is still kind of a joke when compared to what we have had in the past.
So where does that leave us with "good" gen defense perks that are actually viable to use:
- Deadlock - This is really the only REALLY good one left, it gives you a full 120 seconds of gen defense, or 1.3 gens worth for a total game, and blocks gens with the most progress, allowing you to get the next gen that is going to pop. But similar to dead man's, this perk still isn't really THAT much stronger than it. Because it doesn't really offer much in the way of "gen defense" but it is more of a "gen rush" protection. But even then, 30 seconds is an extremely short amount of time for this perk to be nearly as good as old eruption, or Pain res/Dead man's
- Scourge Hook: Pain Resonance - This perk will still be decent, but not nearly as powerful as before. You'll still basically have to pair it with dead man's switch to be good. But given that you get 4 uses, all this does is help you when you want to "play nice". You'll get a solid 90 seconds or 1 gen of regression out of it, if you use it to it's fullest potential. And that is generally where i draw the line. If the perk can give you a full gen of defense, it is probably viable.
The problem with this game is time efficiency. Base regression is SOOOO slow compared to survivors PROgression. Taking nearly 360 seconds to regress a gen from 99% is so dumb, and most gen perks only shave off maybe 10 seconds if you are lucky of gen time. 10 seconds is not even enough time to pick up a survivor, wait for the animation, walk to a hook, and the hook them, then wait for the animation. That by itself is going to take 2.5 + ~8 + 1.5 = 12 seconds. So, while you might have just shaved off 12 second of gen time from some of the weaker perks. Hooking that survivor costs you 12 seconds. Meanwhile 3 survivors are working on gens, meaning they still gained 25% of a gens worth of progress between the 3 of them despite your 12 second reduction.
The only viable perks are the one that, over the course of a game, can save at least a full gen's worth of progress. And even then, they are only really useful if they offer some major BURST regression/defense. Because you always have to be thinking that, you have 4 survivors. So even saving 25 SECONDS, when you hook a survivor with pain res, you are still only GAINING a SINGLEsecond of time in your favor as the killer there. 12 seconds to hook the survivor, but 36 seconds of gen progress and 25 seconds of burst regession = 36 seconds - 12 seconds - 25 seconds = -1 second of PROgression on gens.
Once you look at the math, you can see how ridiculous it is. With how long chases can be, god pallets and such, a single pallet break in a chase, increases the length of that chase by a full 20 seconds AT MINIMUM. That doesn't even factor in if the survivor wins a mindgame, which probably adds another 20-30 seconds of chase time depending on the mindgame. This is why you lose 3 gens in the first chase, and why a single mistake in a chase often will cost you the entire game. And now you see why 3genning, camping, and tunneling is pretty much all you can do.
And if you are going to say: "i don't use gen defense perks and i do fine as *insert low tier killer here*" then post the receipts on youtube, so we can watch how terrible the survivors that you are going against are.
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@stvnhthr said:
With 6000 hours in it is so obvious the game is unbalanced and killer sided. If you don't believe that, you do not play solo queue survivor. I've played both sides and there is no comparison. Killer mains who believe it is their right to always get a 4k disagree.
What are some of the best suggestions (which are routinely ignored by developers) you have heard by playersto balance the game?
I came to this conclusion after watching the futility of four survivors with a combined experience time of over 16000 hours be destroyed by a killer with 230 hours of play leads me to believe it is a glaring and obvious unbalanced game.
So I am hoping to collect in one post the most often repeated good ideas which have been ignored.
I'll start it off:
1.) Certain perk combinations are not permitted. For instance, place all perks into categories like gen regression, or aura reading, etc. Only one perk from a category can be used in a game so you do not have multiple perks which make a particular activity impossible. So no instant gen regression combos which make doing gens impossible. Or only one perk which effects heal times. Or no multiple aura reading combinations.
2.) Balanced perks, for every positive there is an equal negative. Too often DLC releases with a new perk selection which gives one side a great perk and the other side gets three new perks which do bupkiss.
I would do a bunch of things for both sides. My goals would be to make the game more fun and balanced for low level survivor players to have a good time, completely remove camping as a strategy, and completely remove tunneling as a strategy. I would also make sure to balance the game in general around high level players, so SWF kill squads don't roll killers constantly. Depending on how the data works out after the changes are made, i may consider creating a separate queue for SWF and solo that actually balances the game differently (different gen times, different killer/survivor tweaks etc.)
So, keeping those goals in mind, basically eliminating as much of the unfun elements (for both sides) and balancing the game for high level players while keeping in mind the fun for low level players, here are the changes i would make (i'll go into detail later):
- Rework Totems (Hexes and boons)
- 5th perk slot for both sides
- Remove camping from the game
- Remove tunneling from the game.
- Rework Mori system
- Rework Generator repair mechanics
- Rework God Pallets
- Rework Bloodlust
- Buff/rework weaker killers
- Rework nurse
- Rework Freddy
- Rework problematic addons (tombstone etc)
1. Rework Totems
There are basically 3 problems with totems (both hexes and boons) right now.
- Hex totems are either completely useless, or too powerful due to RNG and totem placement.
- Boons are permanent
- Many boons and hexes aren't worth the perk slot
I would fix this in several ways.
- Hex totems are completely reworked. When the killer equips a Hex perk. ALL Dull totems become "Hex" totems. Every Hex perk is reworked to be on a token system that increases the power of the totem based on how many tokens the killer has. The tokens are equal to the number of Totems still on the map. This will do a couple of things. Basically, if survivors spawn on top of a totem, or a totem is in a bad spot, you aren't completely gutted by RNG with a useless perk slot. Additionally, if the survivors now survivors can do a totem and weaken the hex perk significantly, meaning before, they had to find a single totem and the rest were useless. Now, you can at least cleanse any totem you see, and weaken the killer's power.
- This would obviously need to come with heavy changes to every hex perk, as well as probably total reworks of NOED, Haunted Ground, Plaything, pentimento etc.
- Boons now work off a token system. Survivors start with 3 tokens and can spend them to boon a totem, once they are out of tokens they can't boon anymore.
- Now that boons aren't permanent, you can go and buff a bunch of the useless (most of them) ones.
2. 5th perk slot for both sides
This one would come with a big balance change to a bunch of perks as well, but basically, i think they should create a 5th perk that can only hold what we might call a "super perk" or "ultimate perk" or something like that, both sides would have access to this.
Then, we go and rework a ton of gen regression perks for the killers to be really strong and ultimate perks. Generally a gen regression perk should, on average, increase the amount of time on gens by 1.5 gens.
For survivors, this could be where exhaustion perks go along with some others, and a few buffs to them.
3. Remove camping from the game
This would actually be done at the same time as tunneling and would involve the same mechanic. So read #4.
4. Remove tunneling from the game
Removing camping and tunneling is done the same way, and would require some changes.
- Kobe is no longer a thing (except for deliverance, and then rework the luck mechanic).
- Survivors can no longer let themselves die on second stage, failing a skill check now gives you a generator repair "debt" of 5% for each skill check missed. This means that when you repair the generator, you won't actually add any progress until this debt is paid off. (could switch it to some other mechanic, but basically should have a decent punishment for missing the skillchecks that isn't killing your team.
- Survivors now share the 1st hook state with their team. This means that if you hard tunnel out a single survivor, you would have to hook them 4 times (to get through the teams shared hook states) and 2 more times to get through the survivors own hook states. This will do a couple of things.
- tunneling is no longer an effective strategy, because you will leave 3 other survivors time to gens for 6 full hook states.
- Camping is no longer an effective strategy, for the same reason.
- Survivors who aren't as good at the game will get more chances.
- Survivors won't feel cheated out of a "chance" if their team "wastes" all of their hook states, because only 1 hook state is shared, and the rest are unique to that survivor.
5. Rework the mori system
This is more for a fun thing but, just make the yellow mori offering base kit, you can mori the last living survivor. Then you can start selling mori cosmetics to get new mori animations. Would have almost 0 impact on gameplay, because if you down that last living survivor you are almost certainly in 99.99% of cases going to kill them anyway, and i think the fun aspect outweighs the 0.01% of the time it would give the killer a kill that they wouldn't have before.
6. Rework Generator repair mechanics
Basically, i think they got generator repair speeds backwards. Right now, survivors repair a gen at 90 seconds, or 1 charge per second, where generators have 90 charges. But when 2 survivors repair a generator, they both receive a 15% penalty to their gen repair times. This means that:
1 survivor: 90 seconds
2 survivors: (0.85 + 0.85 charges per second) 52.9 seconds
and so on.
The reality is, they have this backwards, this actually encourages survivors to spread out, instead of group up, which makes it hard on the killer. Also, newer players tend to group up on instinct, meaning they will actually be doing the less efficient thing. I think we should flip this on its head by doing the following:
Generators now take 180 seconds to repair (just hear me out for a second).
Every survivor working on a generator, will increase their repair speed by 10% each. Meaning:
1 Survivor: 180 seconds
2 Survivors: 80 seconds
3 Survivors: 50 seconds
4 Survivors: 35 seconds
THEN
We add a "generator part" mechanic, where gen parts will be scattered around the map, and if you find a generator part, the furthest generator from your current location is highlighted, when repairing that generator, a few things happen:
- Your repair speed while working on that specific generator is increased by: 100% (generator will take 90 seconds)
- Other survivors will be unable to repair the generator with you.
- Rework gen progression perks, like prove thyself and toolboxes/brand new parts
This would do several things.
- Survivors would no longer be punished for grouping up, and actually would be incentivized to do so.
- If a survivor wanted to go off on their own, they can, but need to find a generator part first.
- This creates an interesting gameplay mechanic where if you are playing against a killer you'd want to group up against for some reason, you can, or you can split up, but both require some thought.
- You could start designing new perks for both sides around this mechanic.
7. Rework God Pallets
God pallets should not exist, every pallet should be mindgameable by an m1 killer, and we should increase the number of pallets on every map by probably around 50%.
8. Rework Bloodlust
Now that God pallets are gone, killers could force a down with bloodlust much easier, so the mechanic should be completely reworked. My proposal would be to make it so:
- Every time you injure a survivor without downing them, you gain a stack of bloodlust.
- At 3 stacks of bloodlust, the next time you would injure a survivor, down them instead.
- Downing a survivor by any means will remove bloodlust.
- Bloodlust can be removed by stunning or blinding the killer.
This would increase lethality if survivors spend a bunch of time grouping up and encourage you to split pressure instead of tunnel one guy out. Additionally, it counters the healing meta without completely destroying every perk. It specifically is designed to happen on "injure" so it works with killer's powers. But some rework to legion would likely be needed, along with some potential changes to killers like wraith.
9. Buff/Rework weaker killers.
This one is mostly self-explanatory, but i would make the changes above, then start doing balance changes to killers, prioritizing reworking the really OP ones, and the really UP ones and squish into the middle over time.
10. Rework Nurse.
Self-explanatory, as a nurse main, she needs a total rework to be balanced.
11. Rework Freddy.
One of the more boring killers, bring back old freddy and just balance him better.
12. Rework problematic addons (tombstone etc)
Again, self-explanatory.
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@HugTechLover said:
I can’t think of a single hook that only has one entrance to it. Where is this supposed hook at?
One of the RPD maps has the upstairs room the sometimes spawns with the gen. Sometimes a hook can spawn in there, and survivors only have 1 way in, but multiple ways out.
This room right here, it only spawns that way if that side of the map is the closed off part:
I'm sure there are others, but is the first one that comes to mind.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3397665#Comment_3397665
Read the second half of the sentence.
I did, but the perk is literally designed to be for slugging, and then you complain about slugging. This would be like complaining that survivors using sprint burst is griefing because it lets them get away faster.
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@Bot_Salvo88 said:
To make it fair, killer should be able to equip a fifth perk but it has to be a universal one
Actually i think they should do this for both sides.
Killer gets a perk slot that can only have gen defense perks and only gen defense perks can go in this slot (no more stacking gen defense). Then buff every gen defense perk to "on average" add 1.5-2 gens to the game, just differently depending on the perk..
Survivor gets a perk slot for only exhaustion perks.
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@[Deleted User] said:
Perfectly legit way to build pressure when a killer is slugging selectively with good reason. It's straight up griefing if they're running Knock Out or something and slugging to bleed out with the gens up. There's no other reason for that playstyle.
Using a perk is not griefing.