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@OpenX said:
I have recently attempted to explain the toxicity of DBD to multiple people who have not been exposed to the community. DBD is hands down the most toxic game I have ever played. And I have played pretty much all of them. So trying to explain it to someone totally new brought up a lot of interesting thoughts to me.
How would I do it? I want to say there is the overall layer of toxicity that comes with a mutiplayer game. But then there is the added layer of toxicity of people who shame the killer for playing to win.
No other game I have played is anyone shamed for playing to win. But DBD? You are. It is an anomaly. And I think the root cause is that people assume the killer is actually the power role and has the decision of life, death, and if the survivors are allowed to have fun during a game. And I will say, that is only true if the killer is facing unskilled opponents.
The graphic depictions of violence against baby survivors almost traumatize me. It is just murder simulator against unarmed opponents. SBMM was supposed to solve that but obviously it is not there yet. People still assume the killer can do whatever they want, when in reality the killer has to scramble for kills against equally matched opponents.
I mean, same applies to the opposite, survivors are not toxic for getting a 4 man escape. I've been called toxic 3 times today for rescuing a teammate and bodyblocking for their safety.
Survivors are not your pawns.
As for killer scrambling for kills against equally matched opponents: No. They dont. If you're scrambling for kills, you're not equally matched. Here's why:
- your opponents brought overall stronger perks than you did, that's not equally matched.
- your opponents prepared for a certain map while you prepared for a generic one, that's not equally matched.
- your opponents on average have similar skill, but that doesnt mean you're equally matched, because the weakest survivor could be doing gens while you're chasing the strongest one, and you dont realize it untill it's too late.
- you're assuming you're equally matched, but in reality got mismatched.
The same is true if you get 4 kills very easily, odds are that your opponents are equal in skill, but that you overall brought stronger perks, or that its a mixed lobby and you found the 2 weakest survivors very early on, cripping the stronger ones.
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@Emeal said:
Seems Dowsey does not know what averages are. Seems most of the Community don't either.
If you are so god like, you will escape the majority of your matches anyway, so you will get higher MMR.
This Community is just depressing. Demanding a system that takes potentially an unlimited possibilities into account, while averages do the job.
You dont seem to know what a negative confirmation spiral is. Basically, you loop for 5 gens, taking 6 minutes, NOED, get facecamped, die, lose a lot of MMR, face worse killers BUT also get worse teammates. So you loop for 5 gens again, this time for 8 minutes, NOED, get facecamped, die again, even worse killer, but also even worse teammates, loop 5 gens for 10 minutes, at which point pallets run out, killer doesnt even need NOED at this point because he can trigger bloodlust 3 like 8 times anyway, get facecamped, teammates too scared to rescue or dont even have BT to rescue, die first again, face an even worse killer, and even worse teammates, loop only 3 gens for 10 minutes because teammates dont even work on gens anymore.
You can see why this is an issue, right? You should never, EVER create a negative loop in MMR.
Then you also have the reverse, where because of this loop, lower MMR killers still GAIN MMR while they lost the game. Because a good survivor with 1900 MMR got backfilled in a 900 MMR lobby, but the killer with 800 MMR also got backfilled, now this killer kills the good survivor after chasing for 5 gens, and the killer doesnt lose as much MMR because the 900 MMR survivors are higher, so he loses less MMR when they escape, but because the good survivor had a ton of MMR, he gains a lot of MMR for killing that survivor first, and since its the first survivor to die, he might gain 40 MMR from killing that good survivor, and lose 10 MMR per survivor that escaped. Meaning a nett gain of 10 MMR in a game that was lost. This is ofcourse a bit of an extreme, but that shouldnt happen.
Patrick is right, if one side wins, the other side is supposed to lose. But sacrificing yourself on hook for a 3 man escape is still a viable tactic. So why do you lose MMR if it causes you to win?
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@WesCravenFan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2762537#Comment_2762537
They are more skilled at doing the objective of escaping, yes.
The problem with the whole "But I ran the Killer for 5 gens" argument is that if you managed to run a killer for 5 gens, they were a bad killer. And if they are a bad killer that means you likely had LOTS of chances to evade the killer. But no, the 5 gen runners do not WANT to evade the killer. They want to stay in chase the whole game "because gens are boring".
So yes, if you want to willfully ignore the objective on purpose because all you want to do is stay in chase, you are ignoring the objective. What you really mean is you want to get rewarded for chases. Which are not an objective.
What? If you ran the killer for 5 gens, odds are that the killer refused to let you go. I have never had a 5 gen loop with a killer I could have avoided. Seriously.
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@Junylar said:
On their Q&A stream they showed they don't intend to change MMR system ever in the future, because the lead game designer thinks the current system is perfect and flawless, and not a single change can ever make it better. So you are suggesting ideas to the wall.
You're wrong in interpretation there. They dont want to change the MMR system, that being, to another system. That doesnt mean they dont want to improve the current system here.
Context matters. When talking about not wanting to change the system, they used the hockey teams as an analogy for why they think endresults matter more than chases and hooks. Which is true, a killer getting 4 kills in 4 hooks often means that survivors heavily misplayed or the killer did really good. Either way, its an indication of difference in skill regardless of the hooks. As for survivors, it doesnt matter if 1 player got chased for 5 gens, if 3 survivors die, they still lost.
The problem with their MMR system, is that it doesnt take asymmetry in consideration. Where 1 survivor could be mismatched for whatever reason, and losing a lot of MMR because his teammates dont help. This is where the MMR system fails.
You could argue more hooks equals more skill, which could very well be true, but in either scenario, if you were able to get 8 hooks, but no kills, you clearly werent skilled enough to kill someone, or you didnt kill someone on purpose.
So no, my suggestion isnt to a wall, as their biggest issue with MMR is players leaving the match because they died early and MMR currently being coded to update once you leave the match. Because there is a chance that 1 player finishes 3 matches, loses 2 very early and wins 1 quickly, while the 2 losses havent finished their game yet. Making matchmaking a literal clusterf*ck if you apply it like that. So applying MMR changes later, or at a set time, wouldnt really screw with it.
So to reiterate again: My suggestion doesnt change the MMR system, it is just meant to improve the current one.
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@fblurbg said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2761702#Comment_2761702
Did you not read anything in my original post? My issue with the addon nerfs is that the addons aren't the problem. Camping is. That's why the changes won't do anything, because it doesn't address the issue. Yes, weakening their addons counts as a nerf. But it's not a meaningful nerf. Sure, their kill rate might go down by 1 or 2 percent. But nerfing those addons doesn't address the core issue.
They have also stated they can't instantly fix some issues. Reworking/addressing killers takes time, and you need people to have the time to work on it. Even if you hire an entire studio just on reworking/addressing killers, some killers will have less priority.
Its faster and easier to simply nerf the strongest add-ons to buy survivors more time to avoid such a scenario, than it is to keep the scenario the same for what could be a few months. Ghostface and Legion have been on the list for longer and are played more often. They quite simply have priority over Twins.
If you're gonna use info against the Devs, at least use ALL the given info. There simply isn't enough people to keep all killers updated. Heck, even games like League of Legends, they just adjust the numbers if a character is too strong in higher ELO untill they have time to rework their most powerful ability. No one really shits on that.
DBD has a community with heavy double standards, pointing to other games when certain things could be done better, but ignoring other games when they do the exact same thing.
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@Peanits said:
To answer that for you quickly, it's still something that's up for discussion. As you've mentioned, it would reduce some confusion, but there are also folks who absolutely do not want to see them removed.
In a perfect world, they'd stay there as some small form of bragging rights, like "Hey, look how far I've climbed this month." But since ranks have historically been used for matchmaking, that naturally causes some confusion for anyone who missed the memo. At the end of the day, there is no single right answer here.
Isn't there a middle ground for it? Where you could have a hover-over option for the grades? So you could still check the grades of teammates and opponents if you want to, but they originally are hidden
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@AcridPyre said:
The point isn't to make things "balanced" as if this is an achievable goal for this game. It's to make the killer side more appealing and to add back some horror elements to the game. We have plenty of survivors as is but not enough killers willing to play when they play three matches with with new players who don't know what they're doing to be against survivors with 1000 plus hours in the next game.
You act as if the current system isn't just as easily exploitable just as the one before that was. As long as rank is a basis for matchmaking then a way to exploit it exists. You clearly didn't take time to read very well because I explained how any other means of death gives a base amount of points which means if a survivor dies then you steadily rise in rank. The only way you can Smurf is to not kill any survivors in your matches which, surprise surprise, is exactly how people Smurf the current system and the previous one.
The point is to make the killer side more appealing so that more of them stick around. The point is to go back to showcasing the killers and their horrors, make small victories for casual players more enjoyable. You say 4ks are easy to get as is but what you don't take into consideration is that's your personal experience. Not everyone wants to only use the strongest possible killers with the strongest possible add ONS, not everyone wants to be competitive or sweat. I clearly stated that I don't have any idea on the state of gens or giving the killer more time to spare. If you aren't here to have a constructive conversation and take the time to read what is written then why come to just be opposition? How about instead of being combative you actually add something to the topic?
Thing is, adding another gen means adding another full 80 seconds. The last time genspeeds were addressed was only 50 additional seconds.
That 50 second increase was big enough to turn a 1k into a 2k against death squads. Then the toolbox, prove thyself and leader nerf came, and then came the 3k era.
Killer mains have grown too accustomed to the 3k era. Where 70% of matches were wins and they'd only lose to optimal players or death squads. And even then, people complained that survivors were too strong. You win 70% of matches yet your opponent is too strong? Doesn't make sense.
Mmr brought it back to a 2k era, in a frustrating way(I really hope they make chase matter for solo survivors), but it's overall more fair. You win some, you lose some, literally.
Essentially, people who grew too accustomed to the 3k era, are literally entitled. If you think killer is frustrating, imagine being a solo survivor. At least as a killer, if you do badly, you gain at least 15k BP. As a survivor, even if you did great in chase, you could die with just 8k BP, and that's the good version. I've seen people die with only 1k BP.
At least you can end the match, buy something from your bloodweb that might make your future games better and improve yourself as a killer. It sucks, sure, but you'd forget about that match soon, just like you forgot about all your good matches. As a survivor, you pretty much end up remembering those times you got less than 3k from a match and can't even purchase that escape cake that finally appeared in your bloodweb after refreshing it 5 times.
Killer really isn't that frustrating. Killer is frustrating at high MMR. But on mid-low MMR? Killer is fine.
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@ThiccBudhha said:
Remove Decisive Strike and watch the survivors crumble. They won't be calling it useless once it is gone, no. They will cry and beg, threaten to quit the game. It would be beautiful.
Remove BBQ just to piss off every killer out there.
I mean, honestly, DS only really works if you actually waste time tunneling a survivor.
As for an equal exchange, well, I'd actually say NOED would need to be removed to piss them all off. I am actually surprised that like 60% of my games contained NOED. and 90% of those games would have been 4 man escapes without NOED.
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Thing is, there is a very good argument to be made that a specific killer is capable of camping so well because those addons give them a slight edge. They said they didnt want to nerf Twins, because they feel Twins would be too weak otherwise. There are some adjustments to be made to maps themselves(like, consider the entirety of the basement, including it's staircase as a hook, so Twins cant stand on the stairs and camp), but changing Twins' basekit is only gonna be bad.
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@Peanits said:
Heyo, opening this up for feedback and adding some context: The reason why we end up with a lot of "Soon" answers is because we take the most upvoted questions. In the past, we've cut questions that we aren't able to definitively answer, but we received a lot of complaints about skipping and dodging questions. Of course, like you've mentioned, some things either aren't planned or aren't slated to be released any time soon.
Our POV is that even if we aren't able to give the most satisfying answer, it's better to acknowledge the things people want us to talk about most than stay silent on them.
Genuinely, if you (or anyone else) have any suggestions for how this could be done better, please let us know. I'd be happy to change the way we do things for next time, but it's a tricky situation since there's a balance between taking the questions people want to know the answers to and picking the questions we're able to answer to.
I honestly think you could do a "I dont know" segment to include questions that cannot be answered. Or heck, maybe even a "soon" section and have such questions there, since people are gonna make a meme out of it anyway, might aswell join that ride.
Being able to joke around with things you know are gonna be scrutinized whether you cut them out or cant properly answer currently is arguably the best solution. Right now, I have got to say that I think that all "soon" answers are gonna be taken with the same value, which means that if 1 doesnt happen, the community is gonna jump on it and proclaim nothing will happen, and if 1 thing will happen, they will assume all of it is gonna happen, and then scrutinize when one thing doesnt happen.
Having a section of questions that could go either way depending on future development would simply be a way of communicating "hey we like ideas/have these ideas too, and we're even working on some right now, but we dont know if they will ever enter the game" without making any promises, making any actual addition a pleasant surprise while also giving the feeling the people working on the game actually care and that some ideas actually get a chance rather than being mentioned and shelved away forever. Right now, it's a very weird grey area where people arent sure.
You could even sift through some of your personal favourite questions for a spotlight moment, as long as you declare there are personal opinions involved and that you cant promise anything about it.
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@Smoe said:
I think what could be considered toxic elitism from having your MMR revealed is the scenario where people with higher mmr starts to dismiss or disregard the opinions of people with less mmr because only the opinions those with higher mmr should be considered valid.
you already have that with hours, ranks and even amount of killers.
I've had a 150 hour survivor tell me that going for me wasnt gonna work out. The guy had 0 hooks, everyone else was hooked 3 times. He could have tanked at least 1 hookstate and save a teammate.
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@beatddb said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2761409#Comment_2761409
If you expect for me to be pleased on an extra 4 seconds to a perk that lets the whole team heal when they want to, and across floors. Then no, nothing pleases me.
4 seconds is a lot of time. That's 18 meters of movement for killers. So if you see someone heal with Nurses Calling, you can stop them before they finish. That's quite a big difference.
I mean, I agree that having boon area be based on map size(or perk tiers in general, like they said, they arent gonna get rid of 3 tiers, but they CAN dedicate perk tiers to mapsize), but dont make 4 seconds in this game seem like nothing.
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@sir_goat_ said:
i would like to get a reward for my hard work of getting all the masks for bubba. the 6k shards are nice, but are given to everyone that played bubba ever, 1 match and bam u get 6k shards after when those masks get removed. that way, it basically ignores the fact i worked so hard to get all those masks. a cool idea i thought is maybe get like 250k bp for each mask i got, i would say more bp but i doubt bhvr will do it at all so 250k is the minimum. another idea is maybe a cool charm for only bubba for each mask u got, just please, SOMETHING, don't completely ignore the fact i worked so hard to get all those masks, that does not feel nice :(
I mean, back in the early days, you could get all masks within 1 day.
Giving newer players more rewards while older players didnt really have to do ######### and getting the same rewards is also a bit odd. You could have been a bubba main for 1 year now and still not have all the masks(Jake is especially hard to find nowadays, but you can get Claudette or Meg within 3 days).
So really calling it "having to work" when you can literally tunnel 1 survivor all game and facecamp them if they are one of the original 4, isnt exactly "work".
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What I wish that survivors had, was either having a minor passive effect or adding a minor buff to 1 of their own perks(the most obscure one), so that you can pretty much deduce what perk a survivor is running based on who they play OR know what style of perks they are using to get the most benefit out of that minor passive.
An example, Ace is arguably the only survivor who has a minor passive, which is a somewhat built in T1/T2 Iron Will. I'm not saying survivors have to have 1 t1 perk each as a basekit(altho, could be in quite a lot of cases tbh), but minor things like 3% larger scratchmarks, screams outside 64 meters are more silent. It would effectively make specific survivors more interesting to actually spend BP on and require different perks.
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@Leachy_Jr said:
Oh no instead of healing in 8 seconds everyone can self care in 10 seconds with a medkit.
The 2 main issues: Stacking with medkits and the absurd self care heal speed aren't addressed so no not a big enough nerf.
50% would be fine.
Then medkits are your problem, not the perk. 50% is far too little to be restricted by a relatively small area on the map.
Medkits need a nerf, pretty sure many survivors would agree with that statement.
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Yeah, the biggest issue I had was that he compared it to a football game and how it would be weird to consider.
However, football isnt asymmetrical.
For survivors, the number 1 decider that buys the survivors time, aka, the most important skill, is chasing. Without good chases, you're never gonna win.
For killers, the number 1 decider that buys the killer time, is killing off survivors.
It should be Chase VS Kills. Hooks and escapes could add an amplifier to it, maybe. But chasing definitely needs to be the go-to decider for survivors.
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@KateDunson said:
Since sbmm came out did u change approach to the game? Do you like it more? Or don't play at all?
My personal experience is that i don't take the game seriously anymore, it effects my mental sanity especially when it comes to sweaty games over and over again. I was used to play a lot before it came out, around 90h in the last 2 weeks according to steam, now i have 10h the last 2 weeks which is a huge difference and says a lot of it.
How's your experience with it? Share your thoughts.
Another thing I see is that they are slowly losing players and hopefully something will be done about it.
My biggest issue with SBMM that I am a self-proclaimed good player on both sides. I am very good at buying time for teammates as survivor, and I am quite efficient at killing people. Both in a manner that I would consider "fair". I play "fair" untill I feel my teammates don't. As an example: I had a game as T1 myers on The Game for example, as soon as the team found out they camped every pallet and tried getting flashlight blinds while 3 of them were on gens and pre-dropping everything. I ended up catching one in the basement(later a second one) and because I know Myers mechanics well, I kept the pressure above the staircase where there were no pallets left. They tried to bodyblock me(can't block Myers) to protect their injured survivors. So I blocked back. They ended up calling me toxic because I camped and bodyblocked basement after all gens were done within 4 minutes, all 4 had Adrenaline and DS and called me unfair. Well, ofcourse I'm gonna play "unfair" if you are playing "unfair".
Anyway, back to the prior thing. Because I am quite efficient at killing, that means that even if I play completely "fair" and only play "unfair" in response to "unfair" gameplay, I can still climb quite high. Even though my playstyle is not as competitive as high MMR players. Where as a survivor, even if I carry 10 games in a row, I could still be dropping MMR every single game because my teammates leave me to die.
I am still heavily of the opinion, that MMR is a shitstorm as long as survivor MMR is escape based. You don't really need to do anything major to escape. You just need 1-2 teammates that are good at being chased and then decide to sacrifice those teammates for your own good. I am facing killers that are worse and worse at chase, purely because being chased so long often leads to a kill.
I have no clue why survivor MMR has to be escape based. It simply doesn't make sense. Survivor skill mainly lays in chasing, where killer skill mainly lays in getting hooks and kills(yes, both matter. Kills being primary, hooks secondary. Being able to get 12 hooks means you basically steamrolled your opponents the entire game, where 4 hooks still is difficult, but you'd still win).
Effectively, being able to loop the killer for 5 gens and then dying on hook because teammates leave you to die without even attempting a rescue, should result in those teammates losing MMR and gaining the killed survivor MMR. It would be an incentive for players to play more altruistic if they want to gain MMR.
And yeah, there would be cases where both the entire survivor team and the killer gain MMR. But I'd argue that such a scenario is far more rare than 1 teammate being left on hook to die after carrying a team.
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@FriendlyBubba said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2757671#Comment_2757671
Didn't they use data to nerf some of the add-ons because it was mostly used by the killers?
Not really how that works. They look at the average end result of those add-ons. If all add-ons give a killer a 65% winrate on average, and survivors on average escape 35%, then either the killer or the add-ons are overtuned.
You might be like "but that is using statistics wrong", when, it really isn't. There are only 3 things you can do if the statistics go that way:
1. Make maps more survivor sided, which will apply to all killers.
2. Nerf the add-ons or the killer, which are gonna make those killer mains lash out.
3. Buff survivor basekit, which applies to all killers.
The reverse would apply if the killer would be underperforming.
What would you be in favour of in this scenario? How would you make the overall end results more fair(aka, on average closer to a 50% killrate), without pointing out the obvious? If Nemesis wins about 43% of his games with Shattered STARS badge, but 62% with Marvin's Blood. Why would you not nerf Marvin's Blood? Why would you not buff the STARS badge? "Because it's his only good add-on?" Well, sometimes good things have to be nerfed for the long term health of the game. The kind of backlash that people give on add-ons, is exactly why perks like DH, Ruin, Pop and Circle are left untouched for so long. Even though all these perks force other perks to either join the powercreep, or into obscurity.
Do you want the Devs to nerf survivor meta? Then also be willing for Devs to nerf killer meta.
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@Pandamonium31 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2758302#Comment_2758302
Yeah, did that thanks. Basically, just play killer like a killer, and forget your conscience, as you can't rely on others to have a conscience. Gotcha
You've already gave the biggest reason: competitiveness.
Your opponents clearly play competitive too, and in their eyes it could have been an insult from the game to be matched up against a killer, especially Blight(yes, even on Lery's), to barely give them a challenge.
Playing competitive means being able to taunt your opponents, and through taunting have them make mistakes or even lose. If you lost because of taunting, people are gonna taunt that you lost because of that post-game too.
This is generally why I purposely decrease my MMR on killers that I am good with, and why my survivor MMR never reaches too high(I play altruistic, that alone prevents me from reaching the higher MMR) so I avoid being matched up with the sweatiest of people who don't respect my time for the sake of a meaningless endresult.
If highest 1000 players received a secondary award every month, I would somewhat understand being so competitive in public games. But you don't. People literally pretend like they are constantly in a tournament for no reason.
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@Steel_Eyed said:
The map is so bright and his traps stick out so badly. Especially with darkened traps. No grass. Just obvious traps.
Trapper's power consists of 3 elements:
1. Blocking off loops.
2. Taking people by surprise by preplanning.
3. Guarding an area.
Trapper can still do 1 and 3 quite successfully. Even if survivors don't step in the traps because they see it, they are heavily avoiding quite a lot of the stronger loops out of risk that they might have missed 1.
Trapper isn't powerless. Just that his surprise catching(which, arguably is the most fun part of his kit), is very hard to actually use. There are some places still, and it is satisfying to catch people there. But to say he has no power is quite an extreme claim. Hag is worse off than Trapper, and Hag can still use her traps successfully.
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@FriendlyBubba said:
You buffed a yellow add-on, Long Guide Bar, that increases the chainsaw revving threshold to +2 seconds but this has the same number as the green add-on, The Grease.
Wouldn't it make more sense for you to buff The Grease to +4 seconds? Because now they'll have the same threshold as the green add-on and it's more expensive than the yellow add-on.
For those of you who don't know what I'm talking about, here is some info:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/kb/articles/309-5-5-0-ptb
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/KUPDPXFQXKGF/image.png
Here's a good reason:
Perhaps the Devs want the stacked effect to be 4 seconds instead of 3, but 2.5 for any single add-on would be too much.
So they effectively turned the green add-on into a support add-on of the yellow one, making the 2 second bonus cheaper and easier to access for all combinations, but if you specifically want to stack both, you'd need to use the green one.
Honestly, I'd like to see more add-ons work like this. It's much better than the 3-tiered grey/yellow/green version they have of some where the grey one is useless because the yellow and green versions exist. What if more grey add-ons had actually similar, if not the same value of a more expensive add-on, but since you'd only use the more expensive add-on to stack effects, you don't need to rely on random chance.
Because remember, the green add-on is in the biggest pool thanks to map offerings. It's gonna be substantially harder to keep your greens filled than any other catagory. Green add-ons being basically stacking the same add-on twice would be nice on a lot of killers. Imagine finally being able to use that 200 stacked add-on that's grey rather than barely having enough to get more than 5 consistently since you use it so often.
As for the price difference, I mean, it's really not that much. Only 1000 more BP from yellow to green, not like that amount requires a game changing difference anyway.
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@Oiry said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2759431#Comment_2759431
I would argue that BT and DS, while being very essential, they are not needed to do well on high MMR for survivors, because you can rush gens and not unhook in the first place. +don't go down quickly.
Also even with the best perks in the game Pig struggles. Basically still at 3.5 escapes.
Also, you can do well as a Nurse on High MMR without perks. You can end chases quickly. Perks do make you stronger, but I don't see how she is depends on them.
I am assuming solo surv/2 man swf, not 3-4 man SWF(who tend to rely on items more actually)
And Nurse, well, if she doesnt run 2 of 4 possible addons, she is extremely reliant on perks. Without Ruin, Pop or Pain Resonance, she is forced to slug people, which everyone pretty much agrees is extremely boring, and why Exponential is almost required on high MMR(Blight has similar tactics, so a way for survivors to pick themselves up is essential, while in lower MMR, it doesnt really do much).
Add in SWF, and it gets even worse, since survivors spread out weaknesses over multiple survivors. So you'd have to find out who runs Exponential because otherwise you're forced to hook, at which point you're required to deduce who has Kinship, because otherwise second hooking any survivor is gonna cost you 1-2 more gens. And to prevent totems from being placed early, you're pretty much required to run Lethal Pursuer just so you can target the right survivor and potentially snuff the totem while they are downed. And that's on Nurse.
The top 10 perks on both sides need a nerf for skill to actually be a factor in this game. Especially those that stack with other oppressive perks/items/addons.
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They arent necessarily useless at high mmr. Being perk dependend isnt even bad at high MMR. Literally everyone is perk dependend in high MMR. Not running BT? Well, cant really unhook your teammates untill the killer is like 28 meters away. Not running DS? As soon as the killer decides to eat it and ntice you dont have it, you're dead, especially if your teammate doesnt run BT. No DH or SB? Well, gonna be quite a problem as you are very unlikely to reach a decent loop without losing a healthstate/getting downed, especially later in the game. No Self-Care or Circle of Healing? Better hope your teammates are easy to find, otherwise you're gonna be injured for quite some time. Not running Camaraderie/Kinship? Good luck getting unhooked from second stage.
Without specific perks in high MMR, you're not gonna make it. Even Nurse is very perk dependend in the highest of mmr.
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@jesterkind said:
I'm really not sure where the idea that NOED is an easy win came from. Maybe my experience is just flawed in some way, but every time I've ever tried to use it, the perk is useful for at most one down before it's cleansed or people just leave.
Which, by the way, is why it's not OP and doesn't need a nerf. You can, if you really want to, stop it from ever activating... or you can cleanse it after it activates, or you can just leave. The killer has to have done very well throughout the match for that to not work, and if so, they already earned the kills they got before the perk activated, so it's not as though NOED gave them an unfair win.
"You can, if you really want to, stop it from ever activating... or you can cleanse it after it activates, or you can just leave. The killer has to have done very well throughout the match for that to not work, and if so, they already earned the kills they got before the perk activated, so it's not as though NOED gave them an unfair win."
These statements contradict each other. NOED would give a killer who already did well too much extra pressure on top of survivors that would have needed to fight to get that final generator done. That alone makes NOED unfair. It's like hooking 1 survivor for the first time after all gens are done and they simply can crawl out of the exit gate before you can even hook them again. It's a bit unfair for DS to linger that long during the EGC, just as its a bit unfair for NOED to give an already good killer even more pressure after fighting for the last gen.
It's a moment of overkill that doesnt need to exist. You can make NOED more fair by making it work like Pentimento, give the killer control on where and when NOED actually activates. You can disable DS once the gates are opened, no one getting tunneled early during the EGC.
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@lauraa said:
Had a ttv lobby so I decided to put on my Sunday Best. I had a feeling I'd get out gamered with Iron Will so I took preventative measures and slapped on Dried Cherry Blossom even though I suck with that addon.
Sure enough, a Claudette tries to make cheeky Iron Will plays. She was a good looper but she relied too much on her perk to carry her which is the reason she died.
I watch the stream and Claud was L I V I D the whole match. The Feng streamer was all like " This Spirits a decent looper! I sure wish I knew how to play against Spirit!" but Mr. Iron Will is just going on and on saying "addons. Addons. ADDONS. SHES RUNNING THE ADDONS" and said "This Spirit is cringeworthy at best"
I feel like this kind of a double standard here. I dont fault anybody for running IW, but why is it ok to have a crucial part of my kit invalidated, but when I choose to do the same thing, I am Hitler Reborn?
You weren't meant to spend the whole game injured with Dead Hard ready to go, but that exists so I just have to deal with it.
The only reason I feel compelled to use this addon is specifically for Iron Will. If people didnt run IW, I would never consider this addon. Spirits kit was designed around audio tracking, so all this addon does is force you to loop me normally. And plenty of people do just fine looping me with no Iron Will.
I'm not saying Survivor Bad, I'm just tired of constant double standards.
This addon does tremendously change how Spirit functions, but why do people obsess over this addon and say its busted, broken and shouldn't exist when the other side can just flip the script on you and do the same thing?
If knowing where people in Phase is is such a huge deal, then let's remove all Survivor audio and visual cues in Phase so all survivors are equal and perks are irrelevant during the phase.
To be fair, both sides are full of double standards
"dead hard is too broken" while running blight with alchemist ring
"ruin too OP" while running BNP
"camping too strong" while 3 people rushed gens with commodius
"circle of healing too powerful" while facecamping with insidious bubba
Ruin, Pop, Dead Hard, Circle of Healing, Alchemist Ring and Commodius are all things that simply need to be changed(aka, nerfed) so other perks can be compensated more. This game would be more fun if Pop was 15% so that Surge/Jolt can be 12%, or Eruption can be 10% easily then too.
Pain Resonance and Pop together are already a pain in the ass to deal with together, especially in public matches. Pain Resonance gives free info on where you need to go, slap it on a high mobility killer and no matter where it is, you can Pop it too. Thats 40% gone for just hooking 1 survivor. Let alone that it can still stack with Surge/Jolt and Eruption. As long as Pop exists in the state that it exists in now, Pain Resonance can never remain at 15% on the long run.
The other pairing obviously being Dead Hard and Iron Will. Iron Will is fine, but it amplifies the strength of Dead Hard. As it stands now, perks like Flip Flop cant really be buffed without DH recieving a nerf(that might not seem logical at first, but why do you think wiggling out is nearly impossible without 2 survivors running very specific perks? it would be fine to wiggle out more often if DH wasnt as strong as it currently is)
I am honestly hoping that the strongest perks on both sides either be nerfed or recieve a negative consequence, like DS deactivating if the player progresses the game, before the end of this year. I think DH is too difficult to nerf without obliterating it into uselessness(it's meant as a dodge, just the i-frames is very weak, just the dash is practically useless against half the roster), so I'd say DH could do well with a negative consequence where it either keeps exhaustion upon being hooked, or has double exhaustion so it has practically 0 chance to be used twice in 1 chase on bigger maps. Either that, or give more perks an exhaustion clause to it. Like Sloppy Butcher giving a 2 second exhaustion(or haemorrhage in general).
For survivors, random teammates make a lot of killer perks very overwhelming, for killers, some perks make it very hard to face SWF. Both sets of perks simply need adjustments for the future health of the game. It's not fun being forced to run the most broken ######### just so you can keep facing opponents that are actually somewhat of your own skill level.
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@BrokenSouI said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2753697#Comment_2753697
Not really. They keep taking and taking from killers. And giving and giving to survivors. Within the last year-ish ? They buffed and nerfed wraith. Nerfed slinger. Nerfed twins. Nerfed Freddy. Added dead hard and pallet validation.
What nerfs have survivors recieved in that time ? None that comes to mind. They got boons. Validation. More maps that are survivor sided
To say it's a stretch. Isnt really
How many decent perks do survivors have. Like, ACTUALLY decent perks? Fixing gens doesnt really power up a perk, hooks kinda do, but its a very mediocre perk unless multiple people run it, and by the time it has a nice effect you either already won or already lost anyway. Going for chests, even with perks, is barely worth it since any item you can equip is better(the exception being getting a commodius with double Wire Spool addons, yes, this is possible).
Killers get all the fun addons and perks already. You have so many perks and addons that amplify a specific playstyle that forces survivors to play different. While there are barely any perks, except maybe 4, that somewhat affect killer gameplay, and you can bait/eat most of them.
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@DrBrain said:
Im a Nemesis Main killer and I generally have at least 200 hours on nemesis at this point as a red ranked killer. Nemesis is not a “weak” killer but he’s not that very good either. This is my suggestion on balancing Nemesis into being a more fair killer overall.
- Make tentacle whip hitboxing a tad bit wider. there are just too many examples of whipping a survivor with your M2 ability as nemesis only to see it go through the survivor or “clip” through there bodies because there hitbox is alittle off by the way they moved. Increasing the width of the tentacle whip by a tad bit would tremendously fix this frustrating situation that occurs every single game a minimum of 2 times. I cannot stress how frustrating it is when you watch you M2 a survivor in the face and because of hitbox fuckery they now get a 30 second lead which can equal 1 to 2 generators completed by the time you down them. Its too much of a deadhard tier of a choice when it occurs.
- make Tier 3 Tentacle whip do damage regardless of infected with virus or not. Okay this seemed like a general no brainer to me and is kind of weird that it doesn’t already do this. If you are able to get to Tier 3 mutation you should not only get the extra meter but the ability to infect AND damage in 1 strike meaning it takes only 2 whips to down rather than the normal 3 whips. Would make nemesis so much better over all.
- give zombies better pathing. After a certain amount of time, the zombie AI just gets stuck in walls or weird stairways/odd corners. There pathing seems predetermined for a certain time frame then they just go afk in a corner. Id be preferred to see them more actively engaging with a longer period of time of pathing before they just find a corner and fall asleep.
- make virus chests important to search for. I generally do not know what could be changed to make being infected actually matter besides nemesis able to hurt you with his tentacle. Most red rank survivor sweats will just ignore all virus chests and this makes most of Nemesis Add-ons kind of useless or niche to use. Personally the speed zombie perks and increased mutation rate from survivors is much more useful than any Red Add-ons.
I think these changes would overall make Nemesis a decent killer and feel more like you should as a Mediocre killer.
thoughts?
Thoughts:
- no, he doesnt need a wider hitbox. The fact that you can start closing distance while a pallet is broken in t2 and t3 already compensate for the hitbox being smaller.
- Also, no. If you could do damage without infection in t3. then you should be able to get out of t3 too. The whip is very powerful in loops, there is a reason why it takes 3 hits with a whip. You cant drop a pallet without getting whipped, you cant vault a window without getting whipped. A huntress can injure in the same scenario, but a huntress needs to reload her power too, not including the fact that huntress cant break pallets with her hatchets.
- Yeah, this is pretty much the only thing Nemesis really needs.
- They are already important, it means turning a 2 hit down into a 3 hit down. Thing is, you need to give survivors a reason to do so. Survivors only have 4 vaccins. So if you want survivors to use the chests more, the vaccins need to be replenished. They are a very limited resource, you'd want to use it as late as possible. Making them more important early game would also go back to point 2 where Nemesis would need to be forced out of T3. Making him basically the pallet version of Myers, and I dont think that will really help much.
Buffing him one way without nerfing him the other way would make him consume resources even faster than Bubba can, while hitting survivors whenever Huntress can. While being 115% and barely being slowed down. You can see how you're trying to pretty much take the best parts of certain killers while having barely any of their weaknesses is gonna be a hot mess of imbalance.
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2751355#Comment_2751355
when i say that ive faced more spirits and alch ring/crow all with ruin/dying/tink today than i have within the past 3 months i wouldnt even be exaggerating
neither would i be with the amount of prove thyselves
it's so ######### bad
i really cant be asked to play
i appreciate the sentiment but they better fix the grind in other ways because this is really not it.
that or have the community grow up for once but thatll never happen
At least Prove Thyself is logical, 2x BP while cooperative healing and doing gens. Means you can do less gens and less heals and instead be in chase longer.
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@ThatOneDemoPlayer said:
Nurse can't get nerfed. That's her problem. Any nerf to her Power would kill her
idk, her recharge addons can recieve somewhat of a nerf, heck, I actually would love Nurse to have more creative playstyles like Spasmodic Breath, where survivors basically are forced to figure out what addons you run before they can counterplay.
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@jesterkind said:
In my opinion, that's completely backwards- the problem with Dead Hard is that it has two strong effects; dodging a hit, and making distance to a loop. Having both is far too strong, so one should be removed (or, y'know, toned way the heck down). The question is, which one?
Well, DH to dodge a hit is counterable. Sure, if they use it after failing a mindgame it's rough, but if they're trying to react to your swing it's possible to bait it out and exercise patience- especially if you're playing, say, Wraith, who has a power-fake that can force the DH out.
How does one counter DH for distance? You don't. There's nothing you can do about it.
I'd rather it have the fair, strong but counterable effect, personally.
I dont think I would mind DH having a certain activation period, where during an X-amount of time(12 seconds maybe, it still has a 40 second cooldown that pauses if you run, yknow), you automatically dodge the hit(hackers do this anyway, might aswell make it a feature), but have a 3 second interfall where it needs to charge up(so hackers cant abuse it).
But you dodge the hit in the direction you're looking at. So if you're vaulting, you dont get any distance, just a dodged hit, no distance gained(the vault is the distance). If you're looking the wrong way, you are now out of position. Killers could even reduce distance gained by bodyblocking etc in that scenario.
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@StarLost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2741881#Comment_2741881
He's still boring for survivors. He's just bad now - boring kit, awful, dog-poop tier addons.
Oh yeah, he's in an awful state. I would reallly like OG Freddy back with some minor adjustments from Rework Freddy.
OG Freddy had aura reading if you were outside 8 meters and asleep, this should be changed to 16 meters instead for the following adjustment:
Asleep survivors are exposed, aka, they would either need to stay injured, or wake up ASAP. Freddy can see you, and you know he's coming.
Keep the generator teleportation.
It would basically give some meaning to the clocks in the game. Because right now, and even before the nerf, the clocks are quite useless.
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@throwaway79465468797 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2741833#Comment_2741833
You're saying that as if it's true... I'm new to the game and barely bought any killers before I stopped playing. I have no sweaty strategies to think of. Trickster was the last killer I bought. I doubt I have any meaningful meta perks to speak of. Maybe if I leveled up Billy, I could get Tinkerer for my other killers...
but that's not what this is about. Killer perks don't usually make or break the game... it's the survivor perks. The combined effort of stacking survivor perks are what make the game relentless for killers. Meta killer perks won't have any effect on the combination of certain perks in the game.
So that needs to be fixed before killers can really compete with SWFs at a higher level. If what I'm seeing is true then solo queue survivors won't be affected by this at all because they should all be running their own unique builds anyway.
It is, if you 4k too much, you're playing too sweaty for your own good and are facing players that are willing to play equally as sweaty.
As for killer perks making or breaking the game? They literally are the only perks that can. Survivor perks are there to stall for time, Killer perks are there potentially flip the stakes.
Haunted Grounds can win you the game in 60 seconds time. Noed can finish the game in 30 seconds time. Bloodwarden literally ends the game and is just a 60 second countdown without any counter. Devour Hope flips the switches of the game. Pop can prevent a 3-gen from being broken(especially in combination with Pain Resonance).
Killers have the power to potentially end the game at any moment, survivors have the power to stall for the time that they need. Sometimes, the power of stalling is unbeatable, sometimes the potential to end the game happens at the start of the game and no amount of stalling is countering that. The perks reflect these abilities.
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@zarr said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2741794#Comment_2741794
For 1., and 2., these restrictions shouldn't really hurt much. People playing in SWF have various advantages, even without voice comms, and taking away the ability to stack the best stuff or coordinate some broken combinations on top of that is only sensible, even for SWFs that are not looking to arm themselves to the teeth (who of course will be less affected to begin with by restrictions to the ability to do so).
Your argument would have to be that it's actually fine to have a group with 4 DH, DS, BT, UB, BNP and whatnot. I think that's an imbalanced set of loadouts regardless, and SWFs are the only groups that can actually consistently put together loadouts like that.
For 3., I don't think I agree. I think there are much fewer killers that currently can compete with the SWF performance ceiling than killers that cannot. So if we close the solo/SWF gap by nerfing the SWF ceiling, we only have to adjust those few killers to account for this. If we close it by bringing solo closer to the SWF ceiling on the other hand, we of course have to adjust those many killers that currently cannot compete with that ceiling.
Except, it does hurt a LOT. Not being able to run certain combinations for fun is quite harmful and makes the game boring. You would have to neuter combinations like Ruin/Undying/Tinkerer/Pop too.
"People playing in SWF have various advantages, even without voice comms, and taking away the ability to stack the best stuff or coordinate some broken combinations on top of that is only sensible, even for SWFs that are not looking to arm themselves to the teeth (who of course will be less affected to begin with by restrictions to the ability to do so)."
This entire sentence is true, for solo Q. You can still stack everything and coordinate very broken combinations in the pre-game lobby. That's why there is a chatbox in the lobby.
"Your argument would have to be that it's actually fine to have a group with 4 DH, DS, BT, UB, BNP and whatnot. I think that's an imbalanced set of loadouts regardless, and SWFs are the only groups that can actually consistently put together loadouts like that."
If 4 solo q people can play it without many issues, then 4 people in a SWF lobby can too. The average 4 man solo q(assuming matchmaking didnt replace someone with a potato) is more threatening than a 4 man SWF, because 4 man solo lacks the incentive to play altruistic. Altruism is your best friend as killer.
"I think there are much fewer killers that currently can compete with the SWF performance ceiling than killers that cannot. So if we close the solo/SWF gap by nerfing the SWF ceiling, we only have to adjust those few killers to account for this. If we close it by bringing solo closer to the SWF ceiling on the other hand, we of course have to adjust those many killers that currently cannot compete with that ceiling."
Or, yknow, maybe something silly: ADD SOMETHING TO THE KILLER BASEKIT THAT DOESNT AFFECT THE HIGHER RANGE.
Like Fire-Up. Fire-Up being basekit helps all lower rank killers quite significantly, while it barely even helps higer ranked killers. Blight, Nurse, Spirit, Hag, Artist and even Huntress barely really need to increase pallet breaking or window vaulting speeds, while killers like Myers, Ghostface, Clown, Pig and Trapper would massively benefit from even the slightest increase in both, especially later in the game.
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Survivors. And yeah, you might be like "but X is boring too". Thing is, so far, either people have been neutral towards it or actually had fun against it. Freddy was unanimously boring to face.
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@LoneSlinger said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2741803#Comment_2741803
No trying to be rude but I've worked on games before and in order for them to change the value they would've had to actually look at the old value before they changed it
So in order for him to say that he either did the change blind or just straight up didn't look and idk which is worse
"No trying to be rude but I've worked on games before and in order for them to change the value they would've had to actually look at the old value before they changed it"
There is actually a quick oversight for this tho: accidentally clearing the field, quickly calculating what % would make her 115% while holding her puke and filling that % back into the slot.
Again, if you assume that killers never walk faster while holding their power, this is quite an easy mistake to make.
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@Starrseed said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2741724#Comment_2741724
OH well maybe then we get more then 3 twins players ^^ but if we look at it the biggest problem is artist and maybe Freddy but that's it no reason to srcap a good perk for the rest
It could do with a cooldown after an unhook, so you cant camp for 45 seconds, rinse and repeat. Maybe add a 30-45 additional cooldown after an unhook.
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@Akumakaji said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2741601#Comment_2741601
You are right on nearly everything you said, but I am also talking about the meta implications of DS. A few days ago I had a match on the game map, were the last two survivors were a Laurie and a Yui. I had hooked the Laurie and actually wanted to let the Yui go, so I cornered her and she did the surrender t-bag and I thought I had communicated to her that she was free to go. But then she blinded me and unhooked Laurie. Seconds later both were on the floor, Yui went on the hook, and then the three of us waited one full minuten until I could be sure that it was save to pick up and hook Laurie. I mean its just a minute, but three people wasted it for no gain at all. And this happens a lot with DS, or DS prevention measures, ie a lot of innocent people get slugged for a minuten, because they could be running DS. And there is probably no real solution to this, but I find it quite frustrating.
But yeah, you are right, if I get hit by a DS that protected an unhooking from 50s ago, thats a gain for me. Still, one minute is still pretty long and eating such an "old" DS feels undeserved? I mean I didnt tunnel at all, that player just desperately tried to get value out of DS.
I mean, you could have picked Laurie up and continue the chase and make it a lot shorter.
"Still, one minute is still pretty long and eating such an "old" DS feels undeserved? I mean I didnt tunnel at all, that player just desperately tried to get value out of DS."
It's just as valuable as baiting someone into a Head-On stun, or even a DS+Head-On combo. It's somewhat frustrating, but having a gen at 99% only for a teammate to miss a skillcheck and the killer being able to Pop the gen. Or for Tinkerer to go of 1 million times on the same gen because it keeps slightly going under 70%(I personally believe the gen needs to regress below 50% before it can retrigger at 70%), NOED spawning next to a hook.
All frustrating moments that dont really feel deserved. But they kinda happen by design. You cant have survivors hog all the fun, nor can you have killers hog all the fun. And sometimes, something fun comes at the cost of frustration of the opposite side. I had a Wraith today, called us tryhards, he chased me for 7 minutes without being able to hit me(he was trying to mindgame so hard, I stood still for 30 seconds and he was still running around the same loop before he finally saw me) and there were quite some hilarious moments from our perspective that, from his perspective must have been super frustrating. We were mismatched due to an oversight in the MMR matchmaking(if a player, any player, leaves the lobby, the lobby will fill with the player who has the longest queue time instead, even if their MMR is twice as low as yours).
Honestly, I dont see DS getting changed further. There is a slight clause around the EGC(deactivate DS if the EGC starts through exitgates, keep DS activated if EGC starts due to the hatch), but other than that, it's fine. I honestly feel like Guardian/Babysitter could even be buffed further by matching the time of the sprint with BT(making them roughly equals and a very good anti-tunnel perk), after which, perks like DH dont need to be as powerful. And after that, match perk tiers up with mapsize. Where something like exhaustion perks are 60 seconds cooldown on small maps and 40 seconds cooldown on big maps, and suddenly, you've made the game a lot less frustrating.
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@bm33 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2736124#Comment_2736124
Instead of masks why not make his weapon out of things from the survivors? Kill bunch of Megs get a hammer made out of sneakers, bunch of Claudettes get hammer made out of flower pots, bunch of Kate's get a guitar to hit people with, bunch of Bills get a giant cigarette. 😂
Cus that's not how Bubba works. Bubba kills people, and wears their face.
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@BenihimeWrath said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2736124#Comment_2736124
This is how I know you are a troll. You provide an argument that counters your own previous argument. That means there was no reason for you to bring up the 50 auric cell cost at all since BHVR has to treat all players equally anyway.
6,000 iri shards isn't even enough shards to get 1 'good' cosmetic. Like yeah, I guess its 450k BP, whoop-dee-doo.
Personally I think BHVR should have doubled down on the original survivor masks and have it just be one of those things that comes out with every survivor like their twitch shirt/ugly sweater. From my view, them removing the masks is an admittance that the purpose of smartface was to be black face instead of owning that it was just a thematic cosmetic decision and that anyone who says otherwise is blowing everything out of proportion.
Oh, the reason I brought up the 50 auric cells, is that they would have to assume EVERYONE has been able to buy the dlc for something worth 50 auric cells. It would be unfair if someone spend 5$ on 500 auric cells to buy Bubba when someone else bought it for 50 cents, and then the guy with 50 cents essentially getting a 5$ refund. Treating all players equally here, would mean refunding everyone 50 auric cells.
"Personally I think BHVR should have doubled down on the original survivor masks and have it just be one of those things that comes out with every survivor like their twitch shirt/ugly sweater. From my view, them removing the masks is an admittance that the purpose of smartface was to be black face instead of owning that it was just a thematic cosmetic decision and that anyone who says otherwise is blowing everything out of proportion."
BHVR was doubling down on this, for 4 years. Its not untill the past 6 months that people have increasingly been using the face to harass people. And its not even about blackface, its literally that people make it very clear to harass people by streamsniping people, paying for programs to massively increase the timing of matchmaking to match up with the streamer(yes, this software exists, and yes, people pay for it).
Its basically as if you were burning a cross in someone's lawn. You wouldnt need to be wearing a KKK uniform to show you were racist, all you needed to do was burn a cross in their lawn. It's not about blackface. That is a complete misconception.
Also, 6k shards for free cosmetics is quite a lot, the survivor masks werent even really good either. It does limit the customization options for Bubba mains who dont really have the money for it, sure, but the faces were just recolors.
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@throwaway79465468797 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2736128#Comment_2736128
I had consistent 4ks every game until I finally hit high MMR. Not hard to miss.
So you're playing at too high of an MMR, point proven. You've been playing the same kind of sweaty strategies and perks untill you found opponents that do the same.
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@foxsansbox said:
Nurse, Blight, Pre-nerf Freddy, Pre-Nerf Billy, Plague, Post-Shred Buff Demo (That's still a thing, right?)
They have good powers, counterplay, and are just overall nice.
Edit: AND MOST IMPORTANTLY OF ALL PRE-NERF DEATHSLINGER. You filthy savages.
Freddy was super boring tho. Fun is a very important aspect when it comes to playing games.
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@OceanMan said:
Pre-nerf Billy. He was almost perfect before overheat was added. Maybe one op add on. He was popular and fair, since the nerf I have not even played against a single Billy. Very sad.
Overheat has barely affected Billy's gameplay tho. Animations being changed and his flick being reduced(and thus his wallgrinds being mostly removed) has affected Billy much more.
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Neither:
Reduce the range, make the range map based. The healing speed with 2-3 people doesnt really matter much if they all have to run to a specific part of the map(and thus waste time).
For every 4 meters, it takes survivors 1 extra second. On a map like Mothers Dwelling, 24 meters range is fine. If you have it in the main building and you're hooked on the outskirts, 2 people would need to run to the boon for 6 seconds, heal up in 8, then run back 6 seconds to a gen, when they could have healed up under the hook and run 2 seconds to the gen. That's 2 seconds lost.
The boon should simply be 16 meters on small maps, 20 meters on medium maps and 24 meters on big maps.
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@DeadArsenal said:
The game was fun before the meta became so firmly entrenched that every single round had to be as sweaty as possible.
Gotta lower your MMR then. It sucks, but it's the sure fire way to not face meta perks. Just make sure you dont consistently run meta perks either.
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@Kiridus said:
I am a gay asexual man (I only have romantic feelings towards men but I am not for the idea of having sex) and, yeah, I can understand the troubles people went through with people using Bubba's Claudette mask. I do not think face-camping was ever a part of the problem or a problem in its own right though -- it happens to be the thing many shitlord Leatherface players do, rather than something racially-motivated like the Claudette Mask. So while face-camping is something is an annoyance, I would not consider it a tool in the same level as the Claudette mask.
Claudettes mask originally wasnt even the problem. I'd actually say it would be racist to exclude Claudettes face when Bubba simply wears any face.
The problem came that started about 1 year ago when DBD started rising in popularity again, it also started rising attention to more closeminded communities. If you compare the pride event from 2020 with the one from 2021 and just look at the amount of homophobic slurs, I'd say it had tripled.
Heck, I even had people disconnect because I had a pride flag hanging on the hook. I'm not even part of LGBT, but they assumed I was and just DC'd and then spammed my steam profile full with homophobic slurs.
It's the increase of popularity that created a growth in players specifically using the mask with hateful intent. Heck, I've even had someone tell me(I couldnt confirm it, but I would honestly not be surprised), that someone picked Adam, just to run into the killer and suicide on hook multiple games in a row because they thought that it was funny to see Adam die over and over again.
More people means bigger chance of racist players. You cant really detect them, so you'd have to take away their toys instead.
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@hillbilly_is_pog said:
i still fail to understand why billy was nerfed, the only problem with billy was insta saw and cool-down addons. there was absolutely nothing wrong with his base kit.
who remembers in 2019 how you would literally verse a billy every 2-3 games? now you verse one every 2-3 days.
i don’t mind his new animations too much as the old ones looked pretty outdated but his new animations caused his hitbox to not line up and look/feel super janky.
do this day, nearly a year and a half later, people still complain about these nerfs (rightfully so) which should just absolutely show you how unnecessary this was.
(assuming no insta saw) billy was the most balanced killer in the game, he was literally a fan favourite and now he is in a complete mess. #revivebilly
Billy wasnt really nerfed too much, even Overheat barely affects his gameplay at all, it's his animations from the killer perspective that make a massive difference, let alone that he suffers the same thing as cloaked Wraith: he's very loud to the point where you dont hear survivor footsteps.
Thing was, the Ruin change affected Billy more than his basekit changes did. Having less good results, combined with horrible user experience, makes Billy not a fun killer to play. If they revisited his animations on the player's POV and gave him some slight QoL changes, he'd be fine.
@LoneSlinger said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2741717#Comment_2741717
Not saying it's ok to attack almo
But when they reworked plague they shadow nerfed one of her add ons
And McLean said and I qoute
"I didn't even know we were nerfing it I thought it was always 4-5%"
If that tells you anything about the dev team and how much they play the game
Plague's addon really was quite a niche one. It was made more popular by Otz, but devs dont always watch videos. Considering most killers that have an increased movementspeed with their addons while charging their power dont cross their basekit movementspeed, it's quite natural to assume that Plague also followed this rule.
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@zarr said:
I have talked about this fairly often, but I figured I would shoot my shot and open a dedicated thread for this suggestion, because I think it is something that would be very beneficial for the game. This ended up a quite wordy submission, but I feel like everything I say here is important for the central idea. I have still decided to highlight some of the main statements in bold, so as to give more of an overview and orientation within the text and its topics.
The problem SWF poses is obvious: There is a tremendous difference in performance potentials between solo and SWF groups, and this gap makes it impossible to balance the game well for both scenarios - balance killers for the potential of SWF groups and solo survivors stand less chances to succeed against them; balance killers for the potential of solo survivors and killers stand less chances to succeed against SWF groups.
I know the devs' desired direction is to lessen this gap by buffing solo survivors, and then buffing killers to compensate. Specifically, they aim to provide solo survivors with more game info such that they are in a better position to coordinate and make decisions based on the group, in short to improve teamwork.
However, I see a few issues with this approach.
First, voice communications provide SWF teams with a degree of teamwork that no amount of info the game could feed solo survivors could ever match. Voice communications not only allow players to relay all types of game info across the entire team at any moment, but also for them to give commands, and thereby to truly make decisions and strategize as a team based on discrete timings and everyone's input and understanding. Plus the game info being communicated can even be selectively "filtered", such as by importance or priority, since it is players deciding what kind of information to communicate. Voice comms can also be used to give advice, directly helping players make better plays and decisions they themselves might not have even known or thought about, let alone in that moment.
Yet matching even just the amount and type of information being communicated via voice chats without voice chats seems sheer impossible. Take a simple bit of info like "I dropped shack pallet". Now everyone on the team, no matter where they are or what they are doing, knows to plan their chases with the absence of shack pallet in mind. To attempt to match even just this simple, benign call-out in a solo scenario would mean to show all survivors the auras of all pallets that are being dropped. And even then players might very well not be paying attention or just happen to look elsewhere during that moment, so you would also need a notification of some sort. It's obvious that this would get fairly ridiculous even just with simple stuff, and there is of course much more advanced info that can be communicated, such as the perks and add-ons a killer is using, chase patterns of theirs one might identify, and on and on.
Beyond the degree and type of coordination that voice comms provide with regards to plays and decisions, there is the loadout coordination SWF teams have. Premade groups can finetune and optimize their entire 16-perk, 4-item, 8-add-on, 4-offering loadouts down to the last slot, and they can also coordinate their use of these things perfectly ("Hey, activate my Kinship, and then use that time to get some more gen progress in!"; "Hey, you have Borrowed Time, you should be the one going for the hook save right now - and then none of us will have to spend time unhooking you, because you have Deliverance!"). Solo survivors on the other hand most of the time do not even merely know which perks anyone else might be using.
And then beyond the obvious in-game differences, there is the fact that premade groups can and regularly are players that know each other, play together frequently, and can all be advanced or even veteran players. This not only leads to SWFs not seldomly being stacked in experience and skill levels across all players in a way solo groups even with DbD's MMR system almost never are, but it also leads to a level of team cohesion that solos absolutely will never have, knowing each other's playstyles, having natural and intuitive coordination based on experiences as a team together, having set strategies, even having sort of dedicated "roles" for different players in different game situations.
All of this is to say that I believe the gap between solo and SWF potential is just too large to reasonably attempt to close it by buffing solos. I also believe the SWF potential is simply too great to leave it as is.
The next issue is that buffing killers to compensate will be a rather tricky and lengthy undertaking, because you are first having to gauge the impact of any changes to the solo experience, then come up with sensible and tangible buffs for a whole bunch of killers, and then again check how that fits in with the new situation for all of them. All the while also having to constantly gauge whether this does actually put those respective killers in good enough a spot in SWF scenarios. And if there are general, non-character-specific killer buffs, you have to check whether it won't make the stronger characters overshoot their target again. And this all is supposedly with months of letting things settle and evaluating between every notable change.
I just can't see that this is the way to go; it will take many months if not years, and it will be tricky throughout to strike the right balance between all of these aspects - and we would still be left with a peak performance potential of SWF that is quite frankly bonkers.
My suggestion is to instead bring the SWF potential down. With this, you obviously solve the issue of the SWF ceiling being too high. You also lessen the gap between solo and SWF, at least as much as buffing solo would. Nerfs are also much easier to come up with, to ship, and to potentially undo. And finally, you won't have to continually buff various killers to compensate, as we know that many of them are already in a good spot against solo groups. You would instead simply look at which of them are still having issues competing with SWFs and apply specific buffs accordingly. You could then also better nerf the killers that are overperforming against solos, because their performances against SWFs won't suffer as much as a result.
Here is my idea for an SWF adjustment that might already do the trick entirely on its own: Restrict SWF groups to only be able to equip any perk, item and add-on at most 1 time between them. So any member of a premade group (2, 3, 4 players) will have to have a unique loadout. Different items of like item categories may still be used (e. g. an Alex's toolbox on one survivor and a Commodious toolbox on another).
This simple change solves a lot of issues. First of all, it obviously decreases the performance potential of SWF groups a whole lot. Only having 1 copy of key perks such as Borrowed Time and Decisive Strike is a significant decrease in power levels of SWF groups. And it also automatically accounts for the issue that not every SWF is actually a 4-player SWF: in 2 and 3-player lobbies, only 2 or 3 players of the 4 are subject to the loadout restrictions of course, meaning that you can have up to 3 copies of any perk in duo lobbies (or 2 in double-duo lobbies), and still up to 2 copies in trio lobbies.
Next, it solves the issue that complete loadout coordination is just not something the game has been balanced in mind with or designed around, similar to voice communications. Having stuff like 4 Dead Hards, 4 Decisive Strikes, 4 Brand New Parts is completely overtuned. What's particularly problematic about this is that many perks and items that on their own and/or in uncoordinated loadout and group contexts are perfectly alright and if anything just about powerful enough to be worthwhile, turn into something completely unsensible in coordinated SWFs. And that doesn't only go for the meta perks either. 4 Power Struggles + 4 Flip-Flops can be downright oppressive: simply have survivors go down under pallets in their chases with another survivor shadowing them to prevent the killer from being able to pick them up, and once the downed survivor is recovered enough to have their Power Struggle primed, the other survivor can leave. And two survivors can still be on generators during this. Or what about 4 Streetwise with 4 toolboxes, 4 Built To Last and 2 Prove Thyself. Or 4 Vigil with 4 Sprint Burst. 4 Soul Guard with 4 For The People, as well as Exponential and Circle Of Healing, and perhaps throw in some Mettle Of Mans and 4 Styptics and Syringes of course. Solo groups practically never put together ridiculous stuff like this, they cannot really, and let alone then use it in coordinated and effective ways. SWF groups can do this whenever they so desire.
With restricting SWFs in their ability to equip multiple copies of perks and items/add-ons, you not only solve the issue of the ridiculous power levels coordinated loadouts can get to and do so without having to nerf the individual perks and items themselves most of which again are perfectly fine on their own or in solo groups, but you also open up much more design space because now you won't have to think about how a new or changed perk, item or add-on performs in a setting where there's 4 instances of it and being used in coordinated manners. It'll allow individual things to be more impactful while also being much easier to balance, without that caveat of them needing to still be balanced when present 4 times in a match.
Even more: With SWF loadout restrictions, you bring about a huge shift and diversification in the meta. When people won't be able to just bring 4 instances of the most powerful things, they will have to think about viable alternatives. Especially in full 4-player SWFs this will lead to the utilization of a much wider variety of perks, items and add-ons, likewise leading to a wider variety of playstyles and strategies, in turn then of course to more diverse gameplay experiences as well. In tournaments where teams actually are regularly limited to 1 copy per perk, some really interesting loadout choices can be observed. Lucky Break, Quick & Quiet, Wake Up, Balanced Landing, Smash Hit, We'll Make It, Mettle Of Man, Breakout, Dance With Me, Hope - these and more perks are all things you wouldn't expect to see yet do see appear in these tournaments.
You hand killers an important new tool in competing with the information advantage SWFs have: against SWFs, the killer if they are clever and aware enough can keep track of which survivor is using which perks, and they can then make decisions based on that knowledge as well as the knowledge that nobody else can be using those perks. (For this reason, I would like for the game to tell killers which survivors are grouped up in SWFs - however, it should only tell them this once in the trial, such as on the match details overlay, not already in the lobby.) And as a neat little side effect of this, individual survivors in SWFs will also become more distinct, because they will have unique loadouts and playstyles as a result. This gives survivor players more "personality", both from the perspective of the killer and from their own perspective of fulfilling certain "roles" within the team.
You implement this by showing survivors each other's loadouts in lobbies and highlighting any instance of a perk, item or add-on appearing more than once between them (if they are in an SWF). If they do load into a trial without resolving those instances, all copies of the loadout item in question but one are automatically disabled for the trial. This way SWF groups can easily adjust their loadouts, but they also do not necessarily have to. This would likewise help solo survivors a lot since they would also be able see each other's loadouts in the lobbies.
To make this even more comfortable for SWF players, loadout presets that people have been wanting for a while anyway would help. That way players that play together frequently could simply select their preset "SWF build" and not have to adjust their loadouts again if they were playing solo games inbetween or whatnot.
On top of all of this, I believe that buffing solo groups with regards to the amount and sort of information they have available will significantly change the character of the game. The quality of not knowing everything and having to make decisions in a more chaotic and dangerous environment is precisely one of the most appealing qualities of DbD's gameplay, and intrinsic part of its personality as a horror-type game experience. The SWF experience on the other hand is something rather different a lot of the time, revolving more around overcoming a more clearly defined challenge as a team. I personally do very much enjoy the team aspect of the game as well as its competitive aspects, but even I would mourn the loss of the more "thematic" and crazy game mode that is the solo experience (which, sure, can be crazy in a bad way too, but also in a good way, of being thrilling).
If you bring down SWF's power instead of lifting up the amount of available information and coordination in solo scenarios, you close the gap between them for balance purposes without making them more alike experiences - you get to keep the different, distinct game "modes" that are both so appealing in their own unique ways, but you also make them decidedly less disparate conditions to face for killers.
Oh, and I found another reason why this could be the more sensible approach: Every buff to "solo" could and in practice likely would collaterally buff SWF, to some extent or another. Whereas SWF nerfs would strictly only affect SWFs, without a ripple into solo.
I didnt read it all, since I already spotted too many issues with the suggestion, so here's all the counter arguments:
- what about SWF's who dont use comms and just play together?
- what about SWF's who are just screwing around a bit with random builds?
- nerfing SWF is only going to make balancing killers harder.
What you really want to do, is buff Solo Q up to the potential of SWF.
If you do nerf SWF closer towards solo q, you're going to have the following issue:
Lets say optimal SWF is a solid 10 and a full Solo Q squad is a 6. If you were to design any killer right now, they would need to fit between 7-10. Meaning any killer has still somewhat room for nerfs and buffs, even if the numbers are already small.
If you were to drop SWF to 8, you would need to drop all killers that are between 8-10 back to 8. This would mean Nurse, Hag, Spirit, Artist and Blight too. But how are you going to nerf those to now compensate for the lack of potential power on SWF without absolutely gutting those killers?
The smaller the number already is, the harder it is to adjust. If something is 0.5% too fast, 10% is easier to nerf to 9.5% with less impact, than 1% has to 0.5%. You would want to buff survivors, so you can make balancing killers a lot easier.
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@Feegs said:
I feel like there should be bloodweb buffs to increase the time it takes for the laceration meter to start decreasing, but an overall nerf needs to be applied to how long it takes for the laceration meter to start going down.
IMO, Laceration should simply decrease faster if you break the chase and stick around longer if he can keep the chase.
Right now, it doesnt matter, making it a bit too oppressive on some maps, especially when playing solo. But I think a Trickster should be rewarded for maintaining a chase while throwing his knives and punished for losing a chase because he focussed too much on throwing knives.
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Thing is, Bubba has a weird mix where he is 99% fine and 1% straight up broken.
- Overall, his chasing capabilities are fine. I'd say 3 stacks is a bit much considering he already gains distance with 1.5 charges, meaning 2 charges roughly equals the same distance as a lunge and 3 stacks is effectively a lunge+coup de grace but being an instadown.
- The fact that it's very easy to avoid his tantrum in close quarters by simply turning your camera slightly away from the wall is a bit odd, especially considering its an instadown and you can move equally fast in all angles. You'd expect that close quarters, its harder for Bubba to instadown. Making number 1 slightly an issue.
- The fact that he can facecamp no problem with no real reprocussions in public games(yeah, against SWF or if he happened to hook someone with Kindred, there are reprocussions, otherwise, its a free kill that might lead into a free multikill).
1 would be completely fine if it wasnt for 2. And 3 isnt ever really fine except for the EGC.
If Bubba was faster if he runs straight ahead and (slightly) slower if he runs somewhat sideways, 2 would also be fine, making only 3 an issue.
Overall, if you have a Bubba that uses his chainsaw to eat pallets quickly in close quarters and doesnt facecamp with insidious, he's a really rewarding killer, but it's pretty much 2 scenario's that are used too often and too easily that are not. The fact that other killers who had a similar capability has had those capabilities addressed, while Bubba and Billy both didnt have a revisit to iron out the things that were too weak or too strong, is mindboggling at this point.
And you might argue that on average he's fine since he averages 2k's. But if you can freely facecamp and guarantuee 1 kill in public games without any indication to teammates that you are being camped, let alone that people are often so bored of being facecamped that they suicide and effectively punish their entire team because of a Bubba facecamping. That's not the way this game was intended to be played. Being hooked first should never mean death. Yet Bubba can make it mean death.
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@Starrseed said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2732457#Comment_2732457
If that's really how artist can make the perk work then artist needs to change cause we have 26 killers and many weaker killers could make good use of dms so I think it would be pathetic to don't bring dms as planed just cause one or maybe two killer could be problematic
Twins can somewhat do it too.