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@Orionbash said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1125739#Comment_1125739
I don't believe a single thing in your post. If you can apparently loop Freddy for days, but not a decent Doctor, I call bullshit. Doctor is a joke to loop compared to Freddy as long as you have a bit of starting distance to make sure you're in a good position to loop. You can also mindgame pallets to make the doc believe you're going to throw it down one way as he's shocking you and just move to the other and drop it so he's on the other side. Freddy just has to drop snares at every loopable area and its a free hit. The only difference between Doc and Freddy is that decent Doctors are much more skilled players than a, "Good Freddy".
A decent doctor will shock places where you can vault, preventing you from vaulting and dropping pallets for multiple seconds. If he is close enough, he can get a hit out of it too without getting a stun. Freddy takes about 1 second to place a trap and 1 second for that trap to activate. He has a very distinct animation and sound for it. Once he does, you move on, just as you should run to another vault if doctor shocks the pallet or window. And again, Freddy has a LIMITED amount of traps. He cant drop snares at every loopable area. At most, Freddy has 8 placable traps, and just like Trapper, Freddy cannot afford keeping traps randomly activated, because people can preventively trigger them.
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@TheMidnightRidr said:
Funny. The VAST majority of people DCing in my games are survivors who are upset the game isn't going their way, most of which are when survivors who think they're hot stuff get knocked down. It's people like that who ruin games for the rest of the survivors and for killers who care about pipping.
Not to mention the losers who DC so another survivor can get hatch.
The largest reason I DC'd before was because the death animations took forever and I was losing a pip anyway. Especially when getting an early game mori, seriously, its disgusting you have to wait 20 minutes for a match, only to be tunneled early game, get hooked once with the killer staying close enough to be there before you're fully unhooked but far enough to not trigger BT, down me again and Mori me in the first 4 minutes of the game, having to wait that stupid 10 seconds of Mori before I can join matchmaking again. Let alone the fact that if I dc'd, the hatch instantly opens and I could join another game.
If the devs allow me to leave the match once im dead(due to mori or dead hook) without forcing me to wait for the animation to finish and actually open the hatch once someone is put on the final hook rather than waiting for the animation to finish. Then I'd never really have a reason to DC at all. Heck, often killers actually do get a bonus if you DC during a death animation, so I honestly dont know why they would punish that type of DC. There is literally no downside for anyone to dc during the death animation.
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@Orionbash said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1123798#Comment_1123798
You can loop Doctor quite easily. You can mindgame a nurse. And I love looping Bubba. You can't loop Freddy. All he has to do is place a snare and you're down. He needs a nerf and anyone that says otherwise either 1) Is fortunate enough to be on servers where nobody plays him. 2) Is a Freddy main. 3) Doesn't play enough of the game to provide proper input.
No, you cant loop a decent doctor. One shock and its a free hit unless its a big structure. Freddy's traps only work if you're in the dreamworld. And you can get out by failing a skill check.
Besides:
1) I do face enough Freddy's, always been able to loop. Better even than you can loop Doctors or Clowns, as Freddy's traps do not garantuee a hit unless he already could get a hit from you.
2) Not a Freddy main either.
3) I have owned this game since 2017, I am pretty certain I have enough input.
So really, gonna whine some more on how a relatively well balanced killer needs a nerf because he has a counter to looping? How about you stop looping the same pallet and start moving from structure to structure. Freddy can only place down a few traps. Sure, he can place down one fairly quick, but then you should simply stop looping that structure and move on. If the only way you can loop is running around 1 pallet, drop it and move on to the next one, you suck at looping. Sometimes you need to give up and move to the next obstacle.
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@Nakedwildman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1123814#Comment_1123814
You did make me laugh for a second... absolutely not survivor biased lmao XD
i did quit killer, not even thinking to play it again, because survivor is so much fun and easyier
I agree that being a survivor in general is more fun, because you're not playing alone. So even if you face a toxic player, you still average out having more fun because there are simply more oppertunities. Currently, it seems like people only think a game is fun, if they get a 2K garantuee. If killing 2 survivors is a requirement for you having fun, then you're simply not having fun.
I play a lot of killer nowadays, 4 times as many games a day than I play survivor, and honestly, its rare to have a truly unfun game. The only times the game ends up not being fun is if people genrush. Which happens every 5-6 games on average. But considering survivors NEED altruistic and chase points to even gain a pip, if they rush too fast, they try getting my attention so I tunnel them. People need to ignore that urge to tunnel and games end up a lot more fun in general.
So no, I am not survivor biased, the game is not survivor biased. Putting all numbers next to each other, the mechanics are not survivor biased. The only thing that is survivor biased, is that survivors play together. And playing together, by default, will ALWAYS be more fun than playing alone. And I agree that there should be some changes to make genrushing more punishable for survivors. I even made a post for a Ebony Mori rework that makes the game both more fair early game for survivors, while a lot more fair for killers in the long run. Hell, they might even add a mechanic that the faster gens are being fixed, the harder it is to open gates.
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@Rezblaze said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1123865#Comment_1123865
Stating the current State of "counters" in this game is a non-argument.
No, its not. Someone proclaimed "if I need a perk to counter something, its not a counter". Which is a bs argument, it implies that those perks should be basic mechanics. I mean, really. I could argue that if I need to run decisive strike or boil over to actually be able to counter being picked up doesnt count as a counter. Would you really be fine if desicive strike was implemented as a regular mechanic rather than being a perk?
Point being, there are counters to OoO, quite a few even. If you think there is gonna be an OoO and you refuse to counter it because you feel like it shouldnt require an add-on or perk to counter, then you deserve all the free aura readings someone gets from you.
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@NullEXE said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1120949#Comment_1120949
He got the 4k because obviously those survivors were not red rank survivors. Obviously they got anywhere's in the ranking system because the perks carried them alone. Averagly survivors don't make this many mistakes in red ranks, and most pro players in Dead By Daylight all say the same thing, you can't profit off the survivors mistakes because they have too many second chance perks that just nulify every mistake they make. If this was a team of red ranks, with a fully outfitted sets of meta perks, Otz wouldn't have even gotten one hook, let alone any downs.
Okay, lets be real here:
Otz uses a killer who has decent weaknesses and decent strengths(he is not the most balanced killer, but having faced all killers quite equally, Bubba is one of the few that I think does not deserve the instadown as a base ability)
Then Otz uses the worst addons and perks that are practically survivor perks, except for a few specific builds(doctor with distressing is quite useful, for example).
Then a 4 man SWF with communication, using the strongest survivor perks, but their skill level is obviously lower than Otz.
How do people think this is an issue? Otz practically gave survivors 8 perks, and gave them second chances by running speed limiter himself. He literally handicapped himself negatively as much as possible(I mean, using survivor friendly perks is worse than using no perks) and STILL won, and the more you negatively handicap yourself, the larger the consequences of your mistakes are, losing bloodlust with good perks isnt really a big of an issue, but losing bloodlust with that amount of handicap could snowball very hard.
These survivors were running multiple perks that are top tier perks, which practically gives them the largest possible positive handicap, let alone the additional positive handicap they gained from Otz' perks and addons, basically, any mistake they could make was reduced because of that. Yet a terrible team, with all those positives, STILL lost from a skilled killer.
I mean, yeah, if Otz were to run this build against a top tier survivor team, then yeah, he would have gotten 0K. Personally, this match shows me that the game is a lot more balanced than people think it is. A lot of killer mains proclaim Bubba to be the weakest(I disagree heavily on that, he isnt the strongest for a whole team, but he is one of the strongest if you look for 1v1 plays). So here we have the weakest, of the weakest killer builds, according to killer mains, vs a team using the strongest of the strongest. And the killer still won. No matter the skill of the team, if they were the absolute worst team of survivors and the perks actually were as strong as killers proclaim them to be, Otz wouldnt have had a 4k.
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@fleshbox said:
Against good teams and a looper that has OoO you have nex tto no chance as killer. The OoO will tell their mates by means of coms where i at all times. Seen it time and time again.
Now, i just dont even bother and pull the plug. I am not their points pinata. I will take the penalty. And then go and play wow.
Against good teams and loopers? You mean, teams that already have OoO? Let alone that OoO also gives the killer information on where the obsession is, while also having perks available like Discordance, Surveillance and BBQ that all give information on survivors across the entire map. OoO is pretty much the only survivor perk that gives information. The only reason its strong, is because of 3rd party programs. You'd really need a full SWF to truly use OoO in the first place. Let alone that there are Blindness addons and even The Third Seal, which, I agree is indeed a very situational perk, but if you truly fear OoO, its quite a useful counter to it, especially since hunting hex totems isnt really done much early game unless absolutely necessary. The fact that Hex mechanics need changing is a whole different issue. Personally, I think that Hexes should be reapplied to dull totems(with the exception of NOED and Haunted Grounds), perhaps even giving the killer the option to rebuild destroyed totems, as many of the hex totems arent really worth the risk of running. Having the capability of spending 5 seconds reapplying a hex to a totem and 5 seconds rebuilding a totem(meaning you'd need to spend 10 seconds total if all totems are destroyed), while having the effects last(meaning if you have 5 stacks on devour hope, you can reinstate it on another totem to your own choosing). With the only real counter to that being destroying all totems and following the killer if you think he/she will rebuild a totem.
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@DeKillerKiller said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/808717#Comment_808717
I thought it was agreed that counters that requires perks/addons are not legitimate counters?
Counters that require perks or addons are not legitimate counters? Really? So 50% of the perks that exist are not counters in your opinion?
So sloppy butcher is not a legitimate counter to healing? This Is Not Happening is not a legitimate counter to Unnerving Presence? Face it, some things need a perk or addon slot to counter.
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@Spooky13 said:
Give it a watch. In short, he goes in as Bubba with Speed Limiter and Award Winning Chili, possibly the worst killer in the game with an addon that takes away his one positive of instadowns. Surprisingly, he nearly wins before 2 gens can get done. Survivors have made a bunch of mistakes, and naturally he is profiting off of them like a killer should.
But then Otz makes one tiny mistake, not assuming the Nancy had Unbreakable. This tiny little mistake nearly cost him the game. How can survivors go from being curb stomped after making dozens of mistakes, to bouncing back completely? Same for killer, how can he be in the winning position, but one tiny mistake can nearly cost him the game.?
Survivors have so many second chances it's insane, and by comparison, killers have next to none. Making tons of mistakes as survivor apparently doesn't matter, when you can bounce completely back when the killer makes one tiny mistake.
Killers have next to none?
Iron Maiden, Make Your Choice, NOED, Devour Hope, Rancor, all perks that grant killers an instant down, making quite some survivor perks entirely useless. Let alone that Bubba, even though having his weaknesses, isnt that weak(before you jump on that: yes, he does need changing, but his strong suit needs to be weaker while his weak suits need to be stronger). Having 5 swoops of instadown potential while gaining movement speed and being able to turn 360 degrees is very strong in a chase. Bubba is far from being the worst killer in the game. Besides, deciding to slug 4 people and forgetting about unbreakable is not a tiny mistake. It's a massive mistake. Slugging is extremely powerful with only 1 real early game counter, ignoring the only early game counter to a single move is a massive mistake. I mean, lets say you have a massive castle, and ignore Big Bertha being build right outside your door. Would you really call it a tiny mistake if Big Bertha blows a massive hole in your wall allowing the castle to be taken over? No, thats a huge ass mistake.
Now to other "second" chance perks:
Decisive Strike, not really a second chance, as wiggling pretty much isnt considered a chance. Remember, Wiggling is a mechanic that exists and supposedly should be able to free a survivor while being annoying to the killer. Yet what do we see? Barely any effect given to the killer, regardless of how fast you wiggle, and practically never being able to free yourself. Decisive Strike is used due to the uselessness of Wiggling in the first place. Not really a second chance.
Borrowed Time, again, not really a second chance, as you dont have a choice when you're being unhooked in the first place. You could have an ######### survivor that unhooks you just to recieve the points and then just letting you die. You do not have a chance in the first place. Not even including the fact that quite a lot of killers face camp, thus making the only possible chance you can get to be unhooked is someone else using Borrowed Time. Not really a second chance perk.
Adrenaline+Hope and NOED are literally perks that are bound to each other. They all only work with the final gen being done and they all grant quite a powerful boost to the players. Most players even end up wasting Adrenaline, only recieving the speedboost during a time they might not want the speedboost, leaving them exhausted when they might not want to be exhausted. It literally only works when you're injured and being chased by a killer, or have been slugged(as this is the only real counter to slugging so far, especially with instaheals removed). And its odd how people think Adrenaline is a second chance perk, when Hope isnt, even though the movement speed Hope ends up giving, is far more significant than the speedboost that adrenaline gives. Especially since Hope doesnt give you exhaustion. So really, Adrenaline only works in a very specific situation.
Then other perks that also are not considered "second chance" perks, even though they do something very similar:
Second Wind, Mettle of Man, Any Means Neccesary, Inner Strength, Flip Flop, Deliverance, No Mither(really, why is unbreakable considered second chance when No Mither isnt. Is it because you can see No Mither and actually pick them up instead of leaving them slugged on the ground?), Self Care.
It's almost if those perks dont matter as much because there is a killer perk or in-game mechanic that counters them.
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Feeling like you were trying to say something? Unless I am missing a forum meme or something to specifically at me.
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@sekkima said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1123741#Comment_1123741
I would say that the real problem is that you don't need to know how to play to defeat someone with thousands of hours.
At this time a survivor with less than 50 hours can beat someone with thousands of hours because the game allows them to.
They pamper the easy source of money.
Not true, you're forgetting the fact that a lot of toxic people actually do recieve bans. And what do those people do? Simply make a new steam account. Meaning you have a seemingly low hour player with the experience of thousands of hours.
Besides, I see tons of killers with relatively low hours do the same to survivors with thousands of hours. Both sides have it easier than they think. One side only focusses too much on winning while the other side tends to focus on having fun with friends. You have killers who decide to tunnel 1 survivor just to get an early kill, actively ruining the fun of that player, regardless of the hours that player has made, because the game allows them to. I've had 5 minute games, because the killer ran Iron Maiden and I tried using a locker to dodge a basic attack, then get out and be instadowned and practically facecamped. I've had games where I tried being slightly balsy with the killer grabbing me off the gen and facecamping me with insidious and instadowning the random player that tried saving me, slugging that player and going after me again. I've had games with infinite T3 Myers facecamping a survivor he had been slugging all game while having 3 generators in his vision, when he could have easily gone for a survivor that actually had time to finish gens, actively depipping a survivor.
Trust me, they do not nerf killers to pamper survivors. Its people heavily exploiting certain mechanics to ruin the game for many people, why things get nerfed in the first place. Those mechanics were fine on their own, but the combination of their existance allowed 1 player to ruin the game for 4 players. If 1 player can ruin the fun for 4 players, there is a problem. I mean, imagine if survivors were able to have an addon that gave their flashlight infinite charge and make it immune to franklins demise while being able to stack blinding. You wouldnt recieve any points at all, let alone have any fun at all. If you've ever played survivor to rank 1 and encountered the plethora of killers who actively ruin games by exploiting fun destroying game mechanics(like slugging people from the first second they entered the match, every single match they play), you'd realize why certain things get nerfed or altered. The amount of survivors who actively try to ruin killer games are far less than the amount of survivors that are actively having their games ruined. I mean, you have killers who use Mori, hook 1 survivor, then tunnel that survivor instantly to Mori them and when people call them out on their bullshit, their reply is basically "im good, you're bad, git gud". So we're talking 20 minutes waiting for matchmaking to find a game, only to have 5 minutes of game play having the killer tunnel you and instantly kill you, only giving you about 1k-5k points and repeat. Why do you think survivors want Mori to have a higher requirement than 1 hook? Because people are heavily exploiting that ######### to ruin games. And the worst part? 90% of the time, the survivor they Mori first, is the survivor that affects the game the least. Meaning that overall, the killer only saved 1 minute of chasing survivors, while there is a survivor out there that does 80% of the work on his own and a much bigger threat. So really, if you really think they try to pamper survivors. Go ahead, play survivors, tell me how fun those games are to play. When I play killer, I often dont even care if I end up having 0-2K because I always end up finding a way to enjoy the game for myself. And if I find out im actively ruining the game for others because I obviously outclass a certain survivor, I leave that specific survivor alone for 3 minutes, as they are not a thread to the speed of generators being done anyway. I rather go for the survivor that obviously will be the biggest influence on game speed, because that is being sportmanlike. Would you really punch a child as hard as you would an adult in a boxing match? Ofcourse not. You'd be sportsmanlike towards whatever punch you throw the kid and end up aiming the rest at the adult instead. Especially since Rank is purely cosmetic. There is literally no competitive reason to punch the kid as hard as the adult. So the things dealing damage the most are getting nerfed. So really, blame toxic killers for abusing certain mechanics, rather than the survivors.
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@Orionbash said:
If there's perhaps one thing survivors and killers can agree on it's that Freddy is seriously overpowered. There's nothing really balanced about him. You've created a killer that can shut down looping making for short chases, can teleport to survivor objectives and immediately shut them down with perks like BBQ/Pop, and the only form of counterplay survivors have against him is to run to the opposite side of the map and remove ourselves from the dream world. Which, most often, by the time Freddy gets to you again you're already back in the Dream World. And if not, he'll just smack you once and put you right back in. So what's the point?
Now I understand that when Freddy was released a lot of people were excited to play him, but he was OP, and was nerfed into the hole. And I understand that a lot of people ignored him afterwords because he was just incredibly underpowered. Which is why I suspect you've yet to touch him aside from a small percentage nerf. But you need to do something. I, admittedly, used to just D/C upon Freddy games as there's just no point to playing them. The only time I'd D/C mind you aside to give a fellow survivor hatch in a game where the killer stalled by constantly slugging to ensure a 4k. But now I'm forced to play against him and just watch as my teammates, who lately have been newer players with fewer perk choices get stomped on. The only times I win against Freddy is when I'm in a highly co-ordinated SWF group or my teammates happen to be SWF. And I don't think I'm alone in that sentiment as stats show that Freddy has an almost perfect kill streak as per your latest stats release. With the ruin nerf he's been played more too because killers know that he's basically God-tier and has no barriers to usage I like solo queue. It adds another dimension to the game. I shouldn't have to play SWF all the the time for one overused, overperforming killer.
Anyway, it's time. Please nerf him. I know you guys know that he's insanely OP, even despite that little nerf to his add-ons. I'm just surprised it hasn't been done yet.
Doctor could always shut down looping. Nurse has way stronger teleports and most killers can quite quickly go to the generator, PGTW and repeat. As a survivor main, new freddy is not overpowered at all. Hell, personally, I find Bubba a bit too strong in a lot of situations, as he can turn 180 degrees while getting a movement speed, instadowning everyone on his path while his recovering is short enough to easily catch up if he never hit people. I think Bubba's biggest strenghts need a nerf, but his biggest weaknesses need a buff. But that is a whole topic on its own, which shortened down would end up in the following statement: Bubba's m2 ability stops instadowning players on first hit, but almost doubles his movementspeed. So that he can still hit his intended target with the 3rd or 4th swoop. Which I guess players might hate, but in all honesty, I think this, on average, would be a bigger buff than its a nerf. The only real place where it will hurt current players, is that Bubba can no longer instadown players through a window(which I honestly already find ridiculous that that even is possible). And then we have doctor, who's looping intervention can be a bit too strong as players are unable to drop pallets or vault for a solid 3-5 seconds, which is an eternity in a fast paced game. While wraith needs a fix to the flashlight spam keeping him perma cloaked, perhaps the ability to grab survivors from vaults or gens while still in cloaked form. Or how Pig only has access to 4 traps and people can escape with it in the hatch, making any key pretty much make her core ability useless, especially since its up to survivors to actually start the trap in the first place and there is no way to make survivors blind to the boxes. Where I personally feel like those traps should activate on being altruistically helped by another player(aka, being healed from the ground or being unhooked), making the only counter to not starting them by using No Mither or Unbreakable. This way you can still activate the traps even if all gens have been fixed. All in all, currently, no single killer needs an active nerf, nor an active buff. But a lot of killers need alterations that slightly nerf one aspect while buffing another aspect.
What we really do need, tho, is having a bit more diversity with survivors by adding something very niche to each of them. For example: Ace having an 8% base unhook chance instead of a 4%. Bill being able to heal up to 99% instead of 95% while on the ground. Meg vaulting 0.5% faster than other survivors. Dwight hiding 100% faster in lockers but taking 75% longer to get out. Jake giving hooks a 5-10 second longer respawn time. Claudette turning invisible if she doesnt move for 30 seconds(with a similar fashion to wraith, allowing her still to be seen) but instantly turns visible even if she moves her mouse. David being able to take an additional protection hit when injured(only a protection hit) while recieving a 5-10 second timer that cannot be stopped(even if he heals himself), things that make people pick certain survivors based on their ability rather than how they look. 9/10 times, I just end up being matched up with Blendettes because that is seriously the only survivor that gives an advantage. The rest of the survivors do not add anything advantageous. Its time to change that. It should not be big enough to have a massive alteration in the game, but noticable enough to change the current survivor meta. Maybe even introducing abilities that work well with relatively unused perks. Or perhaps even make things very simple, by making survivor specific perks work 1%-10% better(depending on perk strength ofcourse) when used by the survivor they are specific to. Meaning that if you have Botany Knowledge on Claudette, that you end up having 34% healing speed instead of 33%. Or that if your current perks consist mainly out of borrowed time and unbreakable, you might want to start using loud coughing, tall Bill to get a 5% faster rate of picking yourself up or a 3 second longer Borrowed Time.
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@thrawn3054 said:
This is honestly not too far off in my opinion. I'd say a bit too harsh towards the killers though. I think alot of the shall we say hostility from the killer side comes from the feeling they have that the devs ignore them. I get why they are frustrated. But if the devs listen to even a third of the ideas I see from killers. Survivor would be absolutely miserable to play. Honestly I wish both sides would just have calm civil discussions.
Eh, its a bit both. I understand that some survivor perks and items are pretty harsh to recieve. Especially since there is 4 of them. But if we look theoretically, most survivor perks are actually relatively balanced, you cant nerf them as they instantly become too weak and its near impossible to alter them slightly without having to do an overhaul of all perks in the first place. There are also killer perks that are in this zone. Let alone the fact that killers technically have a 5th perkslot if they use a mori. While none of the survivors have any offerings that compare. Even if you 4-stack Vigo's Salty Lips. It doesnt apply to items found and you still only reach a 20%(base 4+16) unhook rate. You'd have to have a 4 stack of up the ante to gain another 12%, having a total of 32%. But then you have a perk slot AND an offering, while you also simply have 1 single perk that grants 100% unhook rate overall. If the Salty Lips would stack up to 50-75%, then you have a competitor for Mori for a theoretical 5th perk slot.
So its a bit understandable that when there are toxic killers that spam mori's will breed toxicity in survivors, that will end up lashing out to killers, that end up recieving a total of 4 toxic players. Meaning that 1 toxic killer almost garantuees the spreading of toxicity to other killers, which multiplies the effect. And survivors end up remaining less toxic overall, because they are playing with friends so they end up maybe being toxic to 1-2 killers and calm down, while solo playing killers end up having to deal with their own toxicity and only truly calming down by having lashed out to other players which can last 5 games, thus 20 potential survivors that get a bit toxic because of that, which will end up making 5-10 killers a bit toxic.
Personally, I believe that pink mori, slugging and facecamping, on killer side, needs a bit of alteration. Like, if a player is slugged to the ground for prolonged time, they should gain points from that in either the Evader or Survival catagories. And if a player is facecamped, they should get points in the same catagory as being slugged. That way, a survivor wont necessarily depip from toxic killer playstyles. And the same would apply to killers being spam-blinded and perhaps even recieving points for each t-bag at the end of the game(I mean, why not). Those things are pretty much the largest non-perk issues that are exploited for toxic behaviour.
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Eh, depends. Survivor is often just as unfun to play as killer is. Both sides have amassed very toxic players that spread toxicity. I tend to be pretty cool about a loss if the killer genuinely outplays the survivors or if the killer decides to facecamp me during the end game to ensure that 1k. But its just too often that I see killers get 1 person in the basement and semi-camp them in a way that the killer knows they can get both players while also being able to ensure the survivors cannot pop that last gen. You end up having at least 2 people hooked in the basement and being unable to gain a pip, as you cant unhook your fellow survivors, nor can you finish the gens. And to top it all off? They often add in a Mori just to ensure that kill and give every single survivor less than 10k points and ensuring the entire team loses a pip.
I mean, if killers are entitled to slugging and facecamping, then survivors are entitled to genrushing and flashlight spams.
Then the ruin. Well. Old ruin didnt really slow down the match as much as current ruin does. You'd think it's not, because you could actively see the effect of old ruin. But really, 2 people fixing 1 generator and 1 person taking down ruin within the first minute only saved you 1 minute of time. The current ruin? If you patrol even decently, it can add a total of 5 minutes to the game. Especially since you dont need to waste time kicking the generators to start the regression. For every 2 seconds a survivor leaves the generator, they have to spend 1 extra second fixing it. The best thing about it? Currently, a lot of survivors dont rush out to seek ruin. They tend to take it down if they still encounter it, but they dont actively will seek for it. So if they leave to save a teammate, they would have to spend about 10 seconds going for the save, a possible 20 extra seconds for the heal and the generator has regressed 15 seconds. 15 seconds they need to spend extra on generators just to unhook someone, especially if they end up having 2 people to unhook, that adds up to 30 seconds extra. The current ruin has much more snowballing potential than the old one, especially since hitting great skill checks on old ruin wasnt that hard anyway.
I mean, why do you think Haunted Grounds is a lot less effective nowadays? For the exact same reason that new ruin is more effective than the old.
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@Raccoon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/888024#Comment_888024
Resilience has a cost / condition.
Giving healthy survivors Lithe's effect with an additional 10% vault speed that isn't tied to Exhaustion would make it the best Exhaustion perk, hands down (IMHO, of course).
Being injured isnt really a cost for survivors tho. Especially since pretty much the main killers used either already cause people to go to their dying state(ghostface, myers, leatherface, billy, oni), or have a lot of other ways to expose survivors. Exposing has been the main meta for killers nowadays. So there is literally no difference between being injured and being healthy other than grunts of pain, which is why a lot of people tend to use iron will.
Compared to Lithe: it's literally sprintburst with the CONDITION that you need to use a rushed vault speed. If you already need to do a rushed vault speed, that 10% isnt going to matter that much.
Let alone that I think that Sprintburst, like Dead Hard actually should have a trigger button rather than just using it. Especially now that exhaustion doesnt go down while running anymore(which im not really complaining about, but the only reason sprintburst was more useful than other exhaustion perks was that you could trigger it twice or thrice during a chase, while for BL and Lithe you needed to look for a place to use it in the first place).
Honestly, if they released a survivor perk that has the old passive as a better version(aka, 80%-95% stagger reduction, which still is worse than the 100% stagger reduction that killers get) in a similar way to how No Mither also is a worse Iron Will. Then I'd be fine with that. But the whole reason why Balanced Landing has the passive, is because its one of the most specific requirements in the game. There were practically no maps where you could drop far enough to trigger the speed boost in general. In fact, the movementspeed boost wasnt part of the perk untill tier 3. There are some spots where you can cheese the movementspeed out of it, but overall, its the hardest exhaustion perk to pull off during or right before a chase.
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@Pumpkin_King said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1030100#Comment_1030100
Ruin really did not control the whole map. Ruin was really only good for slowing the game down a little bit. Of course newbies weren't too good at dealing with this perk, but it can be easily outplayed if you just learn how to deal with it. The big concern that I just had was that my team wouldn't do anything while I sit at the gen outplaying the Ruin. ; But it really wasn't that strong, most of the time people didn't hit great skill checks because of a delay, it's the same thing with hitboxes.
And only because a perk is used a lot doesn't mean it needs changing, there was problem killers saw and a perk that solved it most of the times, but instead of changing the solution it would have made more sense to apply an overall solution and change the perk after that.
The less survivors work together, the easier the killer has it.
That's not completely true; If survivors work together on a gen , it plays right into Discordance, which makes it way easier for the killer because you can disrupt two survivors at the same time, if everyone would do their own gen they would be way more efficient. It's really not about working together than more playing efficiently. ; Survivors staying together and working together makes the game way easier for the killer. Unless they really know how to outplay the killer, but even then it's not as efficient as it could be and probably gives the killer more time.
Survivors need some balancing here and there, personally, some situations, its practically impossible for a survivor to do anything.
You know the same applies for the killer. There are some loops if run perfectly you can't do anything at all. If they all bring toolboxes with speed addons and gen perks, there is nothing you can do. Except maybe "Franklins" but you know it's not going to help you if they finish the gens before you get them. ; But overall this game has a lot of situations where you just can't do anything. Insta chainsaw Bubba , there is nothing you can do.The same goes for insta chainsaw Billy. Iri Head Huntress , Unlimited insta Kill Myers. Facecamping, ; Same goes for the Killer, strong Loops , DS , Adrenaline , The buttdancing flashlight Squad, Borrowed Time , Insta Heal Med Kit.
It was a map control tho. The only real thing a Killer needs to keep track of, is generator progression, the longer a game lasts, the less obstacles a survivor can use to escape a chase. A single perk slowing down generator progression is a map control. And sure, hitting great skill checks over and over again doesnt affect it, but even hitting good skill check slowed down progression. Let alone the killer coming with Pop goes the Weasel and/or Overcharge. You could theoretically stall the game forever, the smaller the map, the easier it was. Yet perks shouldnt get stronger or weaker based on map size, if it does, it's a map control.
"And only because a perk is used a lot doesn't mean it needs changing"
Like I said, either the perk needs changing, or all other things need changing. The dev's have been changing a lot already. Closing the hatch, being able to choose to open a gate to speed up the endgame, other perks were being changed to be more viable and overall relative to today's meta. Ruin was the only thing that stuck out like a sore thumb. Taking Ruin basically garantueed you a silver emblem for not doing anything. Not a single other perk can garantuee a silver emblem, they all require you to do something. For survivors: you need to fix generators, you need to escape and survive, you need to heal and unhook fellow players and you need to be able to run away. For killers: you need to make sure to stop generator progression as long as possible(ruin did it for you). you need to sacrifice survivors, you need to hook survivors and you need to chase and hit survivors.
"That's not completely true; If survivors work together on a gen"
You misunderstood my "work together" part. I meant survivors working together as a team, not working together on the same generator. In fact, fixing 4 generators seperately at the same time is faster than 4 people fixing 4 generators together. My whole point was about if the survivors cant really cooperate well together, the killer has it easy. I mean, if 3 survivors all think that someone else will unhook the survivor that's on a hook and decide to finish a generator instead, it garantuees the person on the hook to die and gives the killer an easy time. But if 1 survivor distracts the killer while 1 goes to save and the final one works on a generator, then the killer is having a much harder time.
"There are some loops if run perfectly you can't do anything at all."
Well, not really. Window blocks are a thing, the only things that dont recieve blocks are pallets and if you decide to keep a pallet unbroken after survivors drop it, you pretty much allow them to loop you perfectly in the first place. And I agree that sometimes its easier to fake a charge(and honestly, I believe canceling a basic attack should be a thing for killers) to have the survivor jump over a pallet and hit them, but 90% of the time, you're wasting your time with mindgames when you can break a pallet within 2 seconds and not spend 1 minute on mindgames instead. And instaheal medkits arent a thing anymore, Adrenaline is honestly not that much of a bad situation considering it wastes a whole perk for 90% of the game, Borrowed Time was needed because, on the hook, you cannot choose when and how you're saved. It's really unfair to a player to have someone basically ######### them over directly. It used to be really unfair with both parties gaining protection, but personally, I'd even say that if a survivor is cabable of unhooking himself, he or she should gain a similar protection by default(even though people disagreed with me there, but seriously, its only a 4% chance in the first place and the reward for it is quite #########, especially if a killer decides to tunnel you again), flashlights are annoying, but if flashlights affect that much of your own game, there is a perk for that(personally, I never really get bothered by flashlights as a killer. The only situation its impossible to avoid is with a pallet), DS is a one-use only perk, and the only reason people use it a lot is because wiggling is practically useless unless someone actively is taking down hooks. So its either DS or Saboteur and I personally rather have DS as it already requires them to get hooked in the first place, while Saboteur might actually remove the possibility of hooking a person.
Now ofcourse, I need to adress the killers too, because otherwise people are going to complain that I only find excuses for survivors, which isnt true, because personally, I believe that during the End Game after opening the gate yourself, it should be a lot easier to spot or hear survivors(giving an actual reason to open the gate yourself). Closing the hatch being the only exception for that(because its already a near impossible situation for the survivor when the hatch is being closed). But anyhow: iri head huntress, its not really an impossible situation. The hitbox of the hatchets arent that large and can easily be avoided by a simple side-step, the longer the distance, the easier it is to avoid. Machinegun huntress was worse because you could nearly instantly hit a survivor before they could react. Unlimited instakill Myers requires a LOT of stalking. You almost need to stalk everyone fully(I think its about 3,3 survivors being stalked) before you can even activate it, and if survivors are that oblivious to a Myers stalking them, then they got themselves into that situation. Facecamping is kinda countered by Borrowed Time, and personally, I feel that if a survivor requires the killer to be very close, they deserve a similar amount of survival points as if they were to escape through the gate. Not because they really survived, but because its the only point slot that's free to recieve points. Insta chainsaw Billy requires quite some skill to pull off accurately, because again, the longer the distance, the easier it is to side-step. If a Billy got close enough to decide to chainsaw instead, you could have gotten hit twice in the first place.
Now, Bubba, I agree with, for different reasons. Personally, I believe Bubba shouldnt be able to insta-down players as a base in the first place. He should hit one stage to multiple people at once, and since his movement speed increases once he releases, he can still down a single survivor if he wishes to. The whole downing multiple survivors was a mistake IMO in the first place. Maybe with an addon, but not a single other killer can down 4 people that quickly even if they are standing side by side.
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@Feleas said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1030406#Comment_1030406
Lol no #########. It's just ridiculous that we need to take TWO perk slots to make it viable to work with. Was better when we just used one perk slot. Because as you noticed, Monto uses Surveillance almost all the time with the new Hex: Ruin. Two perk slots, just saying.
Oh, so because you need 2 perks now to have even better control, its bad? So you're saying if you need 2 perks to make something viable its not a good perk? Well, do I have bad news for you, because most survivor perks require a second one to be viable. Lightweight isnt really super good on its own unless you use Quick and Quiet. Spinechill isnt too great if you dont use Sprintburst or Urban Evasion. Ruin on its own had too much overall control. No single perk should allow that much control. I agree that they should look to other perks and buff some of them aswell, because a lot of them were viable only because there were 3 perk slots left next to Ruin. Personally, I feel like Whispers should be directional in a similar way as an injured survivor would be, but with 5/4/3 seconds interval, with maybe something like Iron Will being able to fully silence it and No Mither reducing the sound. Or how Thanatophobia should last even after someone got sacrificed(not bleeding out or Mori'd), because as a survivor, I rather let someone die late game than try to save them because it lowers Thanatophobia's penalty. I know they do that because some people are afk etc, but if you can death hook an afk person(instead of just hitting them once, which also gives a permanent debuff), non-afk people can finish 1-2 generators.
So TL;DR: Ruin needed a rework, but other perks need a rework or a buff too.
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@Feleas said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1030100#Comment_1030100
I don't mean to sound rude but you, like the devs, completely ignored WHY 80% of Killers were using Hex: Ruin before it's change. Monto always gave a pretty ____ing good hint; "To slow the game down.... just a little bit."
No, I didnt ignore it. Besides, the game is about earning pips. I'm aware of how a highly skilled SWF can make a game very frustrating, and there should be a game mechanic for killers that have a much higher skillcap. Cus right now, there isnt much of a skill cap. Just moving around, hitting things, relying on perks. Killers have a very low skill cap, which is why they are extremely easy to master, but why survivors end up winning overall. Its why Nurse and Huntress are considered the only real viable killers on higher ranks. Because they have much higher skillcaps than the other killers. Killer mechanics in general need an increased skillcap. Things that are more choice related, like being able to charge, but the longer you charge, the larger the punishment is.
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@WastelandSociety said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1030229#Comment_1030229
Isn’t there survivor perks that increases speed of opening the gates?
In my opinion. Gates shouldn’t be placed so close together where the killer can simply stand there and spin around.
True, but its only 15% on your own(maybe 25% extra for 15 seconds if there was a person with Leader on a hook right next to you). So its only 3 seconds faster, which is nice, but not that much all things considered.
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@Feelsbadnan said:
I’m not paying 7,000 bloodpoints to hook someone twice just to kill them. The idea some of you people have on here I’d dumb
Well, you could say the same about vigo's salty lips. Using 4 of them(costing 24000 bloodpoints in total), you would expect the survivors being able to unhook themselves 100%.
If 24000 points dont garantuee at least 1 survivor getting off the hook, then no one cares about those measily 7000 points.
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Eh, NOED is fine as the odds of being injured when the hatch gets closed is already quite large, so realistically, NOED doesnt make that much of a difference other than the movement speed, which isnt that much. However, what I want is that in the endgame, one of the doors should be easier to open. The closer they are, the easier one of them should open. To give a survivor actually a chance to escape when the killer can easily patrol the doors using nothing but mindgames, rather than relying on luck.
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Not a dev, but sure as hell know 1 thing for sure.
If 1 perk is used in every single build, that perk needs changing or all other perks need changing. The biggest reason for the change in ruin, by my guess would be to give killers more reason to actually keep patrolling, rather than tunneling people and using a perk to control the rest of the game. If 1 perk can control the entire map, its too strong.
Swf genrushing has already been nerfed a bit, because the more people fix 1 generator, the slower each of them fixes it.
A good perk to counter gen rushing is discordance. If you need more than discordance to counter an swf or a gen-rush, you should stop tunneling people. Swf is fine as it is, if survivors play perfectly and the killer plays perfectly, the survivors should be escaping. That is the whole schtick of the game in the first place: work together to escape. The less survivors work together, the easier the killer has it.
Survivors need some balancing here and there, personally, some situations, its practically impossible for a survivor to do anything. Examples: hatch closing with 2 doors too close to actually open them, all survivors being on the hook because one person ######### up so much with no chance of getting off, wiggling being basically false hope, the hook on the secondfloor of the thompson house being practically a second basement with only 1 way out, making face camping all the more easier(at least add a place you can jump down from).
While I also believe bloodlust should be easier to achieve the more generators are fixed, with a slight nerf for early game bloodlust(taking 20-25 seconds for each level of bloodlust instead of 15 seconds), but with 5 generators fixed being a very big buff(taking 5 seconds for each level instead of 15 seconds).
Changing Ruin was needed, because it was broken and too strong as a single perk. They need to focus on the core gameplay. Stop complaining about ruin, and start looking for other aspects of the game that are obviously lacking in the current meta. Bloodlust is lacking, Killer offerings are lacking, some killers have addons that are practically useless unless in a very specific build, but that specific build isnt good enough to even consider, so making those specific builds more viable also helps.
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@Feelsbadnan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1029699#Comment_1029699
Don’t have a way of ruining the game. Soooo gen rushing doesn’t exist huh
Gen rushing can be countered by patrolling. There isnt really a counter to face camping.
I disagree with no counter to tunneling tho. The counter to tunnelling is as easy as genrushing or just stop running too predictably.