Moundshroud
Moundshroud
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@DemoFrog said:
I've seen a lot of people trash on him for being underpowered, but he doesn't feel that way, even with non-meta perks. Is he good?
Demo is actually very well balanced. The key to him, in my opinion, is Shred. You have to get good at it, even if it means playing some games where you pretty much attack with it over and over again, taking your lumps until you get it down. Properly timed, Shred can break a lot of safe, longer loops. It is particularly good at ending loops at the Killer Shack early. The key thing is not to get too enticed by his teleport ability. He isn't the same kind of high mobility Killer as a Freddy, Nurse, or Spirit. He has to be tactical.
I like to do the following:
- At the start of the match I quickly go to the hidden side of one gate (the ones where the Survivor not opening the gate likes to hide) and put one of my portals there. It is for later.
- During the match when I pass the other gate I do the same. I'm setting these up for the end game (if I can't prevent it). The point is being able to traverse the entire map gate to gate.
- I'm a big fan of the Add-On(s) that allow him to remain undetectable when he emerges for longer.
- I'm a big fan of Tinkerer and of Trail of Torment for him.
- In short, I play him as a modified Stealth Killer with one HELL of a lunge (Shred).
All that being said, it took a lot of hard knocks to get Shred down. Now I can switch to shred at will while looping to great effect, destroy the pallet they drop, and so on. An interesting thing about Shred is if you hit someone with a basic attack, and then start trailing to make up the ground, you can very shortly Shred and make it all up with a hit.
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@Regulus47 said:
Need I say any more? This build is used in almost every game at the higher ranks due to how simple it makes defending the generators. There's no skill or (real) counterplay to this combo. There is counterplay to BBQ, hiding in lockers, but doing that when repairing a generator just wastes precious time. That means there's more chance the killer will get to the generator before it's repaired and ruin all your hard work and effort for no effort or investment at all.
The killer just hooks a survivor (easy enough) and sees everyone's aura, and then they can go to generators being worked on and instantly get rid of 30-40 or more seconds of a generator repair progression, counting the fact it applies normal regression ON TOP OF the massive gen progress decrease. There's nothing the survivor can do about it. It doesn't even have a cool down, so if someone tries to repair the generator to make up for the unavoidable regression loss, the killer can just do it again with no penalty. It literally punishes you for playing well, and I don't know if that's healthy.
I realise this will probably be seen as a joke or bait by the people of this forum, but I'm being serious. This build is used in almost every high rank game - even the Decisive Strike + Unbreakable combo isn't used that often, yet the BBQ+Pop combo is the one ignored. It reeks of hypocrisy to me. Both combos are uncounterable without literally stopping doing your objective. Killers should face the same stigma for running these brainless combos that survivors are given, and I'm sick of this community giving them a free pass.
Tl;dr: Killers are hypocrites for complaining about good survivor perk combos when they use an overpowered and uncounterable perk combo every game. It's the small PP build for killer.
I know you are being serious, more is the pity. Your understanding of this game is clearly still in its infancy. Your manners do need a bit improvement too. Your title is basically an insult to any Killer using those Perks. I don't see this as a joke, but rather as a rude deficiency in your knowledge. Let me explain a few things:
- Barbecue & Chili is probably the BEST Perk for Survivors because it vastly reduces the amount of camping that would be taking place. Killers leave the vicinity of the hook because they seem some DISTANT potential targets. Remember, it doesn't show them anyone close, only far away. That means they are going to leave to cash in on those sweet extra Blood Points and thus someone has the opportunity for a safe rescue. The people on the Generators, far away, have plenty of time (if they are paying attention) to either counter the Perk or depart for safety. Will your Generator get kicked? Probably. But Generators get kicked all the time; it isn't the end of the world. Moreover, for this Perk to work, the Killer is engaging in chases to get that down and hook. Chases mean the other Survivors could have been finishing Generators. See where that is going?
- Pop only works if the Killer is getting hooks. It isn't passive like Ruin. It means you have an active Killer chasing around the map. This means Survivors can coordinate, move through different Generators getting all of them going to different stages if need be, and earn their own BP in chases (Generators only give you so much). Pop means the Killer will actually take time to go kick a Generator, which is more time to the Survivors to do other things, and depending on how far away they go to kick one, gives more chances for safe rescues. Without Pop, many Killers don't even bother to kick Generators; they just keep running you down.
You need to be careful about confusing insults with accuracy. Not all Killers take this combination, and I assure you that the potent Ranks have a very wide variety of builds. I, myself, run Corrupt Intervention, Ruin, Surveillance, and Play With Your Food. The synergy for me is that any Generator they work goes white when I run them off it, and then gives me a big YELLOW signal when they come back. Information is power, and it is far more effective and nuanced than Barbecue & Chili. Am I braindead for this combination? I certainly waste very little time on searching for my prey. And what about Tinkerer combined with ANY high mobility Killer? What about Pop+Oppression? Killers run different builds to compliment personal play style and there are a lot of different play styles.
If you are suffering badly against Barbecue & Chili + Pop, you clearly need to up your game. It means you aren't taking any of the MANY counters to the Barbecue & Chili, and you and yours are way to reliant on teaming on one Generator rather than spreading out and getting many of them going at once. Stop blaming other people for your personal failings.
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@Zixology said:
So... we can't even run away anymore unless the killer is close to us? This is what killer main YouTubers/Streamers seem to be saying. And I know how much the community likes to worship these people. But come on... I'm running out of options here guys. I already finished my Killer challenges. I need to work on my survivor challenges too. I just want to make sure I do everything the right way without being toxic.
Let me see if I got this right...
- No perks, that's toxic.
- No Keys. That's toxic.
- No Toolboxes, because "genrush".
- No Medkits, because healing shouldn't be "fast".
- No Flashlights, because that's toxic.
- Do not touch totems. Those belong to the killer. But, if there's NOED, I can't complain because I didn't "do bones".
- If the killer has started chasing someone, I must stop working on generators and stand still until the chase is over to avoid "genrush".
- I am not allowed to play with friends in public lobbies. Having friends is toxic.
- No pallet looping. That's toxic. All pallets must be thrown immediately BUT not on the killer because that's toxic too.
- Windows can only be used if they don't impede the killer. Otherwise they're toxic.
- Do not attempt to rescue someone off a hook unless they've already hit stage 2. You also have to be injured while doing it so that the killer doesn't lose any pressure.
- If the killer hits me when I'm hooked, that means I've been toxic and should kill myself immediately as I have ruined the killer's match.
- In the post game chat, I must thank the killer for killing me because it's always fun for me every game no matter what.
- If I ever escape, I must send a recording of it to the devs to show them how OP survivors are and they they must be nerfed and that I must be banned for exploiting.
- ((NEW!)) If I see the killer, I can't start running away unless they are already within lunge range. Running away too early is toxic.
Did I miss anything?
You missed the fact that we don't care about this silly, rant of questionable veracity. I watch a number of the more famous (or infamous) Youtubers/Streamers and I haven't heard anything of the sort. In fact, I'm going to go one further; I don't believe you. Some of these obvious fabrications. Moreover, the less obvious fabrications/exaggerations on your list sounds like rather obvious bait.
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@Dragonshensi said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2025483#Comment_2025483
Cause while I don’t do it I don’t really see a problem with it. They are gaining an advantage outside the game with being on comms. If someone wants to stream snipe in this sense I honestly don’t see a problem with it.
<shrugs> I've a big advocate of having Teams and Solo ques separate, so that the game can be balanced better for everyone involved. A 5th Perk Slot could be opened for Killers when they fight SWF. If that was enough to balance it, then they wouldn't have to keep trying to do it with Perks which has a poor track record. The SWF's 5th Perk (Comms) isn't something I really approve of either. Stream Sniping takes it to a whole new level. If you think Stream Sniping is ok, do you think a SWF using Comms with 1+ of them Stream Sniping the Killer is fine too?
We all have to look at ourselves in the mirror. None of the people on this Forum or in the end game chat are anything more than nameless, faceless voices squawking on the internet. Winning a game (that they don't know you got unfair advantage in) means nothing. YOU will always know you only managed that win by going outside the game. It is ultimately ourselves we answer to, measure against, and seek to better. You wouldn't have asked the question if you didn't already know it was wrong.
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@Dragonshensi said:
Hear me out, anytime I play killer and I have twitch streamer in my lobby I check them out beforehand. See how they are acting on their stream. If they are obnoxious and being a jerk I don’t play that lobby. If they seem nice and whatnot I’ll drop a comment saying let’s have fun and this is the killer here. What I find laughable is one time after I dropped that comment before a match the streamer said “don’t stream snipe now!” Even though she was in a 4 man SWF team on comms. I wasn’t thinking about doing that. True I leave the stream on while playing on my PS4 but only to listen to their comments and reactions to me as killer. I’m not watching where they are going. Just find it funny that they had no problem being on a 4 man SWF team and were constantly updating their team on where I was and what I was doing but me stream sniping is going too far? It seems like a double standard.
No. Why would you even have to ask this question?
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@Nobsyde said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2023805#Comment_2023805
I don't trust negi but I trust you, so I'll take the bet:
assuming there won't be any other changes, I bet a twitch sub that trickster will be in the bottom 3 tier list.
If it changes... well, it depends on how it does. I've put my 1 month timer 🥕
P.S. obviously, to make things as objectively as possible, the tier list will be decided by a panel of trusted DbD players: me, my sister and somebody else I just made up anyway.
Fair enough. And I'm a Halloween spirit of my word. I'm prepared to eat crow when the time comes if... and if... he does indeed end up at the bottom.
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Why try to pull the poor Moderators into this endless screed? They have nothing to do with game balance or design, and I expect couldn't comment on any insider information they glean anyway.
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@Zixology said:
We all know it. Despite most people not wanting to admit it.
If literally anything pro-survivor comes up in these forums, it gets absolutely ransacked by the forums majority.
If something related to both sides comes up, the survivor part gets ignored and the killer side gets praised.
This whole site is just one big circle jerking echo chamber now. The mentality is "Killer = Good, Survivor = Bad".
No ideas can be shared and nothing can be said unless it's pro-killer and anti-survivor.
Hell, I bet 99% of you didn't even read this far. The second you read "pro-survivor", you tuned out, tightened your big boy pants, pushed up your glasses, cracked your fingers and were ready to tell off the "toxic survivor main" who posted this.
Ffs... It's like I'm not even allowed to play both sides anymore.
You clearly only hear what you want to hear. By all means wallow in your essence. In my experience, there are long, ranting posts by people complaining from the viewpoint of both roles, and all get jumped on with equal vigor. That is the nature of the internet. Me, I play both roles, and think any "us versus them" nonsense is a waste of our time. When I hear a post like yours, I know to just ignore you because you have no context or perspective on the actual game.
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@Negi said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2023776#Comment_2023776
I can save you a month and tell you he's the worst killer in the game without a doubt now.
Ok. :) I'll put a reminder on this thread so I don't forget about it. I'll be happy to eat crow if/when the time comes. I trust you will also be ready on the off chance, the crazy improbability that he doesn't turn out to be the worst Killer?
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@Blindninja said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2023477#Comment_2023477
Going against garbage teams does not make him strong
You have no idea what quality teams of Survivors I went up against, so I would remind you of the old saying about assumptions. Either way, I've gone on the record as to my experiences with the Killer. We will see him in general play with EVERYONE soon enough and it will take about a month to truly know where he stands. We can look back on this thread and compare notes at that time.
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@AChaoticKiller said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2023530#Comment_2023530
I mean considering that deathslinger isn't that competitive and trickster as said is basically the same as him but easier he wont be strong or at least he isn't viable.
You can play whoever you want but it's painfully obvious that this killer just isn't that good in his current state.
And I'm ceding that the conventional wisdom here is against me. :) It may well prove to be the case shortly too. I'm just saying that I did very well with him, surprisingly well which is sad because I didn't enjoy playing him at all.
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@AChaoticKiller said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2023495#Comment_2023495
I mean if you can aim why not just play deathslinger he literally does what trickster does but better.
That isn't a joke, trickster is just a deathslinger that is slower at ending chases but can deal with body blocking.
Deathslinger doesn't shut down Looping as effectively for me. But I'm not here to argue with any of you. I'm just stating the simple, honest truth; I didn't find him weak, nor do I think he will be at the bottom.
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@CLAUDETTEINABUSH said:
So, I wanted to talk about why noed is so hated by the community. As many people will say, noed has a lot of counters, do totems, stay stealthy and go for gates, cleanse it and loop normally whilst always expecting it, to name a few. So it's well established that it's not op or underpowered, then why so much hate around it?
Because it feels like the survivors get punished for doing their main objective and the killer gets rewarded for not patrolling. With noed a killer can easily 4k if the survivors decide to try and save the unfortunate first victim. Also, there is no timer or how many exposed swings you have, you can do it forever if noed is well hidden or trapped. For example, I played against a deathslinger that sticked with me almost for the entire game. Last gen popped and a teammate tanks a hit on shack for some reason. The urban evading claud also get cought. Both of them downed and hooked on shack, the totem was also near that area and the gates were on the same side of the map so we had no way of escaping or getting a safe rescue, whilst being unable to cleanse the totem since it's in his patrol area. I had to lure him away from the doors so at least one of us escapes.
In that situation I felt punished for playing well and looping the killer, but the killer was then rewarded for throwing the game just to get me, because a 1 in 1000 situation occured.
And that's the exact reason it's so hated. The community believes it's used by bad killers who don't know the game/character or their tactics consist of throwing the game and get rewarded in the end with noed, which isn't always the case. Endgame builds do exist, and the devs keep adding endgame perks to make em a bit more interesting. Personally, I believe that noed is simply a second chance perk for bad/mediocre killers that don't have access to good slowdown perks or can't keep pressuring gens. But at the same time I believe it's an enchantment for endgame builds.
Tldr; it just feels punishing for the survivors doing their objective and promotes not patrolling/caring about gens.
You are kind of illustrating the problem yourself with the bias built into your OP. Generators are ONE objective, and the one which isn't optional. Totems, however, are the OTHER objective, and they still want you to do them. They give you agency, however, and allow you to gamble on whether or not you think it is important in a given match. Killers GAMBLE when they put NOED in:
- It might never go off and they kill you all before the gates are powered; hence playing the match a Perk down.
- It might never go off because the Survivors cleanse all the dull Totems.
- It might not matter because having NOED go off doesn't guarantee you will find, intercept, or down anyone.
- It might not matter because even though it goes off someone finds it now lit and turns it off.
Everything about this Perk is a big WHAT IF that the Killer is taking a chance on. More to the point every Survivor knows NOED is out there, particularly the ones that complain about it endlessly. So Survivors are taking almost the same gamble when they choose to ignore Totems. The solution to NOED is doing Bones.
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@OniWantsYourMacaroni said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2023444#Comment_2023444
Please tell me what is he doing better than any other killer we got so far?
He shuts down loopers. Since I am not the strongest Looper myself, and thus not the best at countering them, I found Trickster's power to be extremely effective FOR ME. I'm good at mind games. I'm good at finding people. I have a knack for situational awareness. These are all reasons I'm good at Spooky Myers. My inadequate Looping ability (which I work on constantly) is why I'm terrible at some other Killers. Trickster covers MY greatest weakness, and thus for me he was extremely potent. People who are already good at looping and shutting those things down probably wanted more out of the power as far as damage output.
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@Zaytex said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2023444#Comment_2023444
This has to be bait, no one seriously thinks he's anything above D tier.
It isn't bait. My experiences with him were not negative. In fact, I did really well with him. I just found him dull. But remember, I'm also the guy who will take Spooky Myers out into big, outdoor maps and do well with him. Personal play style might have something to do with it. It might just be that I looked at him, decided what was most efficient, and only play that way.
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@Dragonshensi said:
Just got into the Shrine map. So huge map. Literally in the first couple of seconds into the match before I even found someone or really move three gens popped. I was instantly done after that. Just went AFK and let them leave. No way to even get a 1k after that unless I camped and tunneled. That 3 gen rush instantly killed my mood for playing the match. I couldn’t even gen patrol cause the map was so huge. Not only that but I’m rank 10 and can’t depip at all. I didn’t kill anyone in my other matches just hooked. I should be down to at least 12 by now but I can’t depip. I don’t want to face off against these level of survivors. They are out of my league.
Define a couple of seconds? Normally that would mean two seconds, but clearly that isn't possible short of hacking. So what you really mean is two Generators came up probably between (45) seconds to a minute or so? And then you go on to indicate they got the third one before you even found someone, so you gave up.
I'm sure (although I have not read all the responses to you yet) that someone has pointed out that the game is never over until it is over. I can't tell you how many games I've lost the first four Generators early and then fought for the last one for 5-10 minutes (and won). So....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNLUS0o69wQBesides, even if you do lose you will learn more from losses than you ever do from win. That is my experience.
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@Tillablerhino44 said:
Dear killers do you like to troll I hate tunneling and camping until cheating is no longer allowed n dbd this sucks cause it is my favorite game but until cheaters are sorted I'm done tunneling n camping is not a stragey it's lazy and unskillful the worst at this are rank 8 I'm sick of this I been talking about it for three years and until killers can't go to hooks why a player is actively on it I quit
Happy Trails?
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@hardtimefun said:
MANY post saying he is weak, MANY videos saying he is weak, MANY saying ricochet should be base kit
MANY MANY MANY of everything, hey ricochet now ricochet twice.
MANY gived suggestions about how to improve the killer, gave ideas and suggestions to make the killer more unique and viable, it all got ignored ONCE AGAIN
I am done giving feedback to this game, or bug reports, I lost all faith in the devs, the fact they ignored feedback on this weak killer crushed the very little I had left.
He isn't weak, and that is certainly not the feedback I gave.
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So, I've read the changes and all the replies here. I'm afraid I have TWO unpopular opinions, so I won't make the DEV happy or most of you. It goes as follows:
- I'm not enthusiastic about the Trickster. I think he is boring, one-dimensional and encourages one type of play.
- I don't think he is near as weak as the rest of you do. I played him and didn't have that experience.
A lot of it depends on mindset, i.e. how you approached playing with him. Most people threw a lot of knives, and I mean a LOT of knives and only used the baseball bat as a second choice. I found this application underwhelming too. However, when I swapped the order, i.e. making my first attack with the baseball bat and then ran down the now injured Survivor with knives, the Trickster became a lot more potent.
By in large his knives do one thing well; they make looping him impossible. He is perfectly happy to follow you around any terrain (which might normally be safe) and bleed the Survivor out. In fact, most classic loops end in one third the time (often half) if you do a basic melee attack and then switch over to the blades. Play him like a classic M1 Killer and land that first hit. The Survivor takes off with the speed boost granted by the injury and then you launch after them and immediately start chucking blades. This totally overcomes the distance between you and the target, and starts wearing them down. It only takes eight hits.
I know this is kind of boring way to approach it but the Trickster is, by in large, boring. That doesn't mean he isn't effective, nor is he going to be anywhere NEAR the bottom of the barrel. People will quickly unlock all his Perks and start playing him with their own favorite other Perks, like say Play With Your Food (which I found devastating on him). I don't like being negative, nor in this case a double negative, but I suspect some of the concern about his ability to down Survivors has more to do with "how" people were playing him rather than who they COULD have been playing him. I can only speak for my own experiences, but I did not find him to be weak in the slightest.
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@SilentHillOnDvD said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/FUFS9NOTRZL9/ps-app-20210314-060132-7e2.jpeg
Past 3 days it's been nothing but haddonsfield, corn maps, gideon meat plant, and 2nd chance perks. How are killers supposed to have fun when the survivors want full control at all times? Let me pick freddy and slap on a dead dawg saloon offering, I'll get called trash and boring.
Survivors are not responsible for your fun, nor you theirs. You bring your fun or not.
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Color and cost should be changed if they are going to remain the hot garbage they are now.
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@Ruma said:
Can you make this with every new chapter please? @Moundshroud
I can't promise anything, but I might. I feel almost like going back to the start and working my way forward until now. Really depends on time... might keep me busy and away from doing long-winded, overly opinionated arguments for awhile.
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@SleepyWillo said:
Dbd homages to pitch meetings are tight!
Shoot; I knew I forgot something in the format.... I so should have worked "tight" in. :)
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All that person did was cost themselves everything they had earned up to that point. It didn't inconvenience the other Survivors or the Killer. So, I suppose if someone WANTS to lose what they have earned and get a Ban, power to them.
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I think that a cool "look" alone isn't going to be enough. A Slenderman-like Killer would need to play entirely different. He would be ambush and a slow stealth Killer. I think the ability to go into lockers (despite his weird size) would create cool animations of it somehow squeezing in and then teleporting to emerge from another Locker. I think it could be cool.
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@Giuliano1020_Twitch said:
I ve had so much fun as an experienced killer, facing noob red rank survivors, and letting them "long chase" me just to see how they would mess up thousand times, or even learn with smart survivors, trying to outsmart them but not trying to "win" the game. The 4k is not healthy for the game.
You do you; I'll stay a tryhard. :)
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@Luciferr_2nd said:
I have been having non stop bad matches as killer today and i actually want to tear my eyes out.
How am i supposed to get better at the game when im only up against really good survivors.
Rank doesnt mean anything, im red ranks but im ######### at the game. I cant wait for mmr my matches have been painful.
Matches are literally less than 10 minutes long, survivors loop me and teabag.
Just had a match as blight (on console btw) where they managed to escape in 7 minutes and cleansed all dull totems and the absolute coordination i cannot deal with.
Killer is fun it really is, but i cant handle the stress, games go so quick and i dont have corrupt intervention on all killers.
The matchmaking sucks, the grind for perks sucks, the shortness of games sucks, the map reliability on some killers (like blight) sucks, the unfair maps sucks, the gen speeds suck (maps should be smaller), and i just cant.
This was a rant please move on, i hope that BHVR will recognise all the problems with the game but yknow probably not.
My main concern is mmr, every game im just depipping and getting 0-1k, not balanced, the ranking system just doesn't work why am i in red ranks :(
I hate to say it but the only way to get REALLY good is to get thrown into the deep end of the pool and take your lumps while those toxic Survivors curb-stomp you. Revenge is a dish best served cold, and I assure you that you will get better FASTER playing against them and then dish it back out to them.
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@MadLordJack said:
Do you have any idea how easy it is to pull off any form of juke right now? The survivors literally teleport around the killers screen. Turning left is a near-instant 90° jolt. It's insane. The current patch broke movement again and no-one really talks about it. Tracking through a lunge is sheer luck, which is why you don't see good killers lunging, but that's kind of beside the point: movement is broken, you don't even have to 360 to juke.
Also, don't try and pretend one arsehat is every killer in existence.
I was wondering. I thought I was just entirely losing it, as I never used to get juked and now it seems like it happens all the time.
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@Rizer said:
Killers: Kill Survivors
Survivors: K I L L yourself and your team mates, do this once per match for the next 20 hours.
How would this challenge be new for some Survivors? I know many that have been doing this since they started playing. :)
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@SaintDorks said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2017994#Comment_2017994
Well, no one wants to watch a boring movie which is dragged out either.
The game is measured in minutes. I think the longest I made one game last was about half an hour. For better or for worst, the DEV are engaged in a balancing act. On one end of the see-saw is agency, i.e. your free will to do what you want. On the other end are the behaviors they would like people to engage in to try and make the game fun for everyone. Thus, they tend to let you have your agency, but it comes at a price. Killing too quick and without style, means less Blood Points, and slower Emblem advancement. They want you to be more like the horror movie monsters, and toy with your victims.
When opponents are properly matched (a rarity these days), this comes naturally. The Killer really is going to have to work hard and by default will earn more Blood Points and Emblem advancement. Longer games tends to make more points for everyone. When you are unequally matched, the Killer has the option to make a game last as long as he/she desires. Let me put it this way, if I've hooked three people before the first Generator is up, I back the heck off and wait for the unhooks to happen. The following reasoning applies:
- These Survivors should NOT be in the match with me. I need to take it down a few notches. Why should they suffer because matchmaking is this bad? They can't learn anything if I put two to the back of their head.
- If they all die on the first hook I'm only cheating myself. It is only a step above disconnecting in so far as the loss of potential points and advancement. It is simply leaving money on the table.
- If I could do that so easily, what risk am I really at by letting the match go longer? Besides, I also put in Add-on(s), and offerings and they go to waste if I don't get my full fun out of the game.
If I were to play every match I enter into at maximum efficiency, I would be playing very differently than I do right now. The most effective play for me against the Red Rank squads I face is to take a 4v1 to a 3v1 as rapidly as possible and make the game impossible for them by attrition. Am I capable of that? Absolutely. I have a metric ton of Tombstone Pieces as well as overpriced Mori to use. I could be dirty and simply juice up, minus one and then they have very little chance. I could likewise hook one (using the Mori) play just enough keep away for them to go to 2nd Stage and then allow the unhook and then Mori. It provides the same result. Why am I not doing this? Well, it would get kind of boring to me. If money were on the line or this was a tournament, that would be different. But I'm playing for fun here.
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@Botiz said:
Thought this would be an interesting discussion to start, but killers, when do you decide to camp or tunnel?
I may tunnel if:
- Someone is trying to purposely bodyblock and take a hit with BT (though if they hit me with DS after i'll leave them)
- It's early on in the game and I can potentially get a DS out of the way
- I'm in a bad position in the game where 3 or 4 gens are complete and I haven't had many hooks
- Maybe in end-game if I know they've used or don't have DS although it's risky considering BT
I may proxy camp if:
- I've hooked the survivor in the middle of or around a three-gen
- I've hooked a survivor close to one or more gens that are close to being finished
- If I need to push someone into second stage, or from second stage to death if I haven't had many hooks
- If i'm in end-game and the gates are far away or I know I can't down another survivor nearby.
I'd like to say I have all this fancy criteria, but that would be a lie. I will Herd, Camp, Tunnel, Slug, or Mori whenever it seems prudent in a specific match. Aside from almost always choosing to Herd, I never go into a match expecting to do any of the above. Those are things that get done based entirely on the situation, i.e. niche. I don't have time to think about whether or not these particular Survivors have checked some box of annoyance; I'm playing to win and the only things going through my mind are (and in this order):
- Current best known location of all Survivors.
- Generator situation.
- Hook count, i.e. who have I hit and how many times.
Information is power in this game, and time is the most precious resource. I suppose if you wanted to break it down intellectually, you could apply the old Who, What, When, Where, and How approach but that would be giving too much credit. Situational awareness combined with a ticking clock is all it boils down to being.
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@ttvbardberd said:
Don't worry, I'm not here to tell people how to play or calling people bad for playing a certain way
But Holy ######### is this the worst rank reset I've ever played in my 3000+ hours on the game
As I'm writing this the time is 12:36am UTC, and I started playing today at 11pm, and the amount of killers tunnelling, proxy camping, slugging and playing plain unfairly is outstanding. I'm not being a entitled survivor by pointing this out, as I understand these things are game mechanic, but I've played 5 games tonight and have already just been absolutely distraught from playing for the rest of tonight, which sucks because I love playing this game and honestly rarely have anything bad to say about it, other than maybe the connection issues and kill rates for certain characters.
I played a game against a Wraith who tunnelled everyone out of the game, (First two games were SWF but not try-hardy, we just like playing together) and at rank 5, I think it's fair to say that at this rank it's just not a viable strat to camp or tunnel, especially with the amount of Unbreakables and DS's people use. We don't run meta perks because they're not very fun to play and we like testing out different builds.
I had another game with a rank 16 spirit (Yeah I know, Matchmaking in this game is literally so god awful it's insane), tunnelled everyone out of the game, which is fair enough considering when you're that low of a rank, you just play to play, you don't play and actually consider how the other players must feel when you're being toxic and not playing fairly. Bu then in the post game chat I tried to tell them about how tunnelling and proxy camping aren't viable strats if you're trying to rank up, they instead of taking the tip decided to defend their actions, which is to be expected from a brown rank because of what I said before^.
Just incase you're a brown rank and reading this: Tunnelling, Proxy camping, the whole ordeal, they're not viable strategies. Yeah, sure, you might win the occasional game here and there doing them, but most games you'll lose, and you can't argue that if you're good at the game and do them that those players will win, because good killers on this game can win without doing these things (Like I'm a rank 1 hag, and don't ever tunnel, proxy camp or slug, with the exception to the latter being if someone sets of one of my traps, and because I spam the action key I'[m not going to let you off of the hook because you ran over one of my traps), they also understand that this game isn't just about you, you're trying to make the game enjoyable for everyone, which is why good players don't need to tunnel or proxy camp at higher ranks, (With the exception maybe being end-game collapse).
I'm not complaining, just trying to share my experiences during this specific rank reset. This doesn't happen all the time and usually I just accept it, and you can't sit there on your keyboard and say "git gud" when you've probably also had a situation similar to this and wanted to punch a hole into your desk, so lets try and have an actual discussion instead of a bunch of people telling me to "Git gud" or whatever -
So to keep this as an actual discussion, let me know - What was the worst game you played during a rank reset? (Lets keep it civil in the replies!).
Three thousand hours in this game and you only just now got around to coming to the Forum? :) I haven't noticed a damn thing different about this reset as opposed to any I've gone through before.
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@Raze_snep said:
I think this is the first time and the last time i quit a match as killer and actually saying sorry to the survivors that i cant be arsed to deal with this game anymore and they actually understood where i was coming from between the game on the verge of effecting my mental state or health with the amount of toxic BS i deal with as a killer or survivor or between the fact i play casual and chill to wind then have to go full mega sweaty and the fact matchmaking is just a massive mess that i cant get any were as survivor because im always against rank 1 killers same goes for killer im just done i actually had uninstalled this game i used to enjoy playing this game then it slowly became worse and worse to the point i just wanted to grind out challenges and that just became hopeless to do and with the new killer and survivor coming this month i just wanted to casually chill while doing getting blood points not having to bash my head into my desk
Other people have said it well above, the Moderator in particular. I'm in a video mood on Saturdays so I'm giving you an appropriate one to this game and your situation. Just bear in mind this isn't me being snide or trying to trigger you. In this case I think you KNOW what is best for you, so just do it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQGXP_5wN5E -
@CanWeGetANewMap said:
Why is this in the game? Just had a match where I got a 3k within the first 2 minutes of the game. I let the last guy ds me and get hatch for points but guess what, de-pip. Why is this a thing? Even a 4k probably would've gotten me a de-pip to. Lets hope this MMR is better.
Because nobody goes to a horror movie to watch it end in the first two minutes? :) Here, watch this little scene... the main character explains it far better than I can:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_hsjTExzbw -
@Sluzzy said:
Killer has been buffed so much it is too easy for sure. The thing is 4K is actually the norm. Watch any killer main and they'll 4K like every game. Then complain about borrowed time or DS while getting a 4K.
A 4K should be a rarity, not common.
I'd love to have Sluzzy-vision for a day. It must be very interesting seeing the world the way you do. However do you manage to survive?
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@YourNightmare said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2015284#Comment_2015284
It is on :). They activated it by mistake with the last hotfix.
Really? If so, I'm sad to say... it still doesn't work then. :)
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@YourNightmare said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2015231#Comment_2015231
Wrong. Stats are few months old and the new matchmaking wasn't on. Red rank killers were matched against red rank survivors. You take extra events and consider them as a general case so :
- no red rank killers aren't often matched against purple and lower rank survivors
- even if this happens, the hundred of thousands trials used to calculate the stats make those extra events insignificant as it might be 5 to 10% of hundred of thousand games
Statistics are the most accurate data you can get to study anything. When the population is big enough (here hundreds of thousands trials), you can admit scientifically that the stats have a 99.9% accuracy and totally represent the state of the game.
I won't loose my time to explain how statistics work, you can google it if you want to learn more about them.
1 year ago devs have released more complete stats with DC rate, suicide rate etc and a guy on the forum took those stats and excluded all suicide+DC trials. Results were the same with a kill rate around 68% in red rank games. But ye you will still find something to say it's worng blabla.
Sorry champ, but I'm not wrong. Officially the new matchmaking isn't even on NOW. I say "officially" because I suspect that it has been turned on and off for testing purposes regularly since it was turned off last Fall. "Taste the Rainbow" is a very real thing, which happens to me (at least) every other day. About the only time I don't see it show up in a reliable pattern is during events.
PS: I find your trying to explain statistics to me very entertaining considering what my Degree is in, but to each their own.
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@Toblerone007 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2015155#Comment_2015155
There was also a red rank statistic published too.
It showed trends that were indicative of correct data. ie Nurse kill rate increased dramatically.
What I don't understand is this see-saw effect when all the data was an upward trend for kill rate as ranks increased. Do you mean the smaller sample size 4 man SWF games as ranks increase?
Of course it's not solid enough to determine game balance but there are statistics BHVR could publish to us that is. 4 man SWF, very experienced player statistics etc. etc.
As I mentioned to another commentator in this thread, it is the context that matter. Red Rank Killers ideally would face all Red Rank (or with some Purple) slates of Survivors. When we do, matches are not 4K slaughters. I can assure you of that. I'm fighting for my very sanity against all Red Rank Survivors; it is a bloody, hard fought mess. That is as it should be. I track all my games and lots of different markers. While I wish it was better, my average against all Red Rank Survivors is (gasp) averaging out to about 2K per match overall. In some games I get none, and some games I get all four, but the overall average does round back down. The Bell Curve is a harsh mistress. Someday I hope to be a Superstar like Otz and be able to 4K in a reliable way, but the game is not balanced around people like Otz (thank God).
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@Curveballer said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2015155#Comment_2015155
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/L5AV6UKK8HCL/kill-rates-and-pick-rates.png
So, then explain why the kill rates at red ranks are so high too
That is easy, because I am a Red Rank Killer. Matchmaking is awful. Some days I play against all Red Rank Survivors (or with some Purple thrown in) which is as it SHOULD be. On those days I have a hell of a fight in every match. It can go either way, and often does.
On other days (when I suspect they are testing out MMR or their Ques are backing up) I get to "Taste the Rainbow" and every match has one Red Rank, some Yellow, Brown, and perhaps a Green. It is really random, and devastating to that poor slate of Survivors. One Red Rank cannot carry a team against a Red Rank Killer. Moreover, Red Rank Killers have to go into every match giving 110%, sweaty as hell because if they don't they will lose. Things are solidly tilted in Red Rank Survivor territory. As such, when we don't get matched correctly, those ill-suited Survivors are totally rolled before we even realize we should take our foot off the gas.
Killers, in most regions, are desperately needed. Ques determine who you get matched against more than skill (sadly). That means whenever the lines start backing up, Survivors are thrown to Red Rank wolves that they are not prepared to face. That also skews the numbers.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2015176#Comment_2015176
I very rarely see hook suicides. Saying that those are common is a blatant lie.
I have nothing but respect for you, and have always found your posts pretty on the beam. However, here I have to disagree with you. I don't doubt that your personal experiences are truthful, but I would suggest that you have simply been luckier than most or play in a grouping and ranking where the behavior is less common.
Sadly, I see suicides on the hook all the time. It is so rampant that it regularly impacts whether or not I earn a Pip. I track all of my games (record them too) and right now the averages of suicides in my, personal experience are high. Moreover, if you go look at any of the threads where people discuss this issue, you will found an astounding number of people participating that feel the behavior is alright, and should be done more often.
Terms like "common" are very subjective, so it is hard to know what page we are all on.
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@ClarityOfWill said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2015124#Comment_2015124
Rank 1 SWF's (EU Region) with 3/4 DS's as well. However, those aren't the types of squads I'm talking about since put bluntly I rarely lose to them. I'm talking about the optimized squads bringing every gen perk/toolbox they can and who are competent enough loopers they don't need DS (even if they choose to take it because reasons). Sure, it will help limit the damage that bully squads can do as well, but often they don't give a ######### about gens in the first place.
The point I'm making is that while DS needed changing, there's going to be unintended side effects that will buff the toxic aspects of gameplay and weaken soloq more than it already is. This change, like keys, should have come as part of a wider review into game length and unhealthy playstyles.
I feel everything you said here is true, to an extent. I don't fully agree with the notion that Survivors achieve a level of Looping which makes them untouchable, but I will agree that DS isn't actually necessary and some Survivors know it. I, myself, never run DS; I have more pressing Perks I need. However, for those people who do take DS heavily, I don't think this change is going to alter their habits much at all. DS for MOST people (in or out of a SWF) is like Dumbo's Magic Feather. It provides them a sense of well-being, a placebo effect. The proposed changes don't have any effect on that whatsoever, and thus I don't think it will have any effect on the rates at which the Perk is taken. The SWF that are selective or minimalist about taking it are insignificant and won't show up in Stats or be noticed by Players. The group that might use it less are a specific type of SWF that abused objective tactics. Let's be honest, the word is that there aren't that many of them (although I'm dubious about that notion) so this change should be minimal impact there too.
I completely agree that there will be unintended consequences of the change. There are ALWAYS unintended consequences. I disagree with you that the change will have a greater impact on Solo than SWF in this instance, because Solo never used DS in the same manner as SWF. In fact, Solo have always used it the way the new design encourages, i.e. run away to safety. Unintended consequences are just as likely to be positive as they are to be negative. We just don't know yet. Every doomsayer I've listened to on this topic SAYS there will be toxic side-effects, but they never state WHAT those will be. If it is this clear to you that there is a consequence coming, you should be able to go out on a limb and make more than a vague prediction. If you can't (or won't) then we are really just spitting in the wind. So again, I agree there will be ripple effects in the META, but I also think they could be positive. In fact, I am will to go out on that limb and predict they will be positive. I think DS in some rarified, abusive circles will be taken less. That is a good thing. That Perk slot will be filled with something else, perhaps something that helps them find and cleanse totems. A wider variety of Perk selection across all levels of play means a more diverse game. That is a good thing.
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@Kebek said:
Lately we keep on seeing discussions that constatly beat over the fact that kill rates are above 50% which they consider too high, ignoring all the context, pushing the idea that survivors are weak, killers too strong and should all be nerfed it seems.
So, let's make something clear. Even if I ignore the facts like DCs, hook suicides, new players boosting the kill rates, etc all which drastically increases kill rates, what actually makes them so high.
Simply said, it's the fact that 1 player will overall make less mistakes than 4 players, in other words coordination and skill disparity is what's causing survivors to die so much.
By that I want to say that killer is only 1 person, they only need to rely on their own ability to play the game, they don't need anyone else to do well. Solo survivors heavily suffer from the need to have all 4 players play well as even 1 weak survivor can be enough to dramatically shift the odds in killer's favor. That applies even if killer never actually chases said weaker survivor since they'll just be inefficient. They'll take long time to do gens if even, slowly walk around, won't do proper saves not even talking about their chase duration or how they waste resources.
Even if survivors were drastically buffed and killers nerfed the issue would remain, bad uncoordinated players would continue on increasing the kill rate and even the good ones would suffer from lack of coordination making them waste time.
The only way to adress the kill rate issues is first to make proper matchmaking that will not allow mediocre players to get into highest ranks and add more tools for survivors to communicate or get information in some way to lower the gap between 4 SWFs and 4 solos then balance both sides accordingly.
That is at least my take on the reasoning behind the high kill rates.
Kill rates are high for a much more simple reason that nobody really talks about much. There is a bias built into reading these Stats flat. Like a lot of video games, there tends to be a lot more Newbie Players than seasoned ones. New people come and try it out, play for a while, and then move on. While in the so-called Potato Ranks, things are definitely Killer-sided, because the main strength of Survivors is teamwork. Thus, as Players become more seasoned, the balance of power shifts away from the Killer (like a see-saw) to the Survivors.
So, if more people come, dabble and move on before truly becoming seasoned, it creates a situation where Kill rates are higher, but that doesn't mean the game is poorly balanced. It just means the statistics are flawed from the get-go when you look at flat Kills because it isn't taking into account the tides of Players flowing in and out. The DEV do understand this, however, and don't think it is their job to try and explain it to the rabble (and I don't mean that in a negative way). Most people don't understand statistics and read numbers entirely out of context, or only in the context that appears to support the argument they constructed.
Kill rates are fine. If the data was published broken down in a way that delineated Players by "hours in the game" you would see a very different story, graphs that could tell a much more accurate tale indeed. The problem of balance, in this game, is the sheer volume of variables. We all want perfect balance, but that is a utopian ideal, and not possible. What they have achieved is remarkable all things considered. Things could be done better, but it would require a fundamental change in how people are matched up, one that is at odds with their desire to keep Ques as quick as possible. Better matching, by default, means slower Ques. We can clearly see (and feel) which priority they have chosen.
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@BeardedScrub said:
For this game to be "balanced" most killer mains are asking to be able to kill 4 survivors most matches...
Even if you get 4 kills HALF of your matches and 2 kills your other matches, that averages out to 3 kills per match. That means 3 out of every 4 survivors won't make it!!!
In what world is that "balanced"?
In solo q, I don't know if our squad makes it out alive even 10% of the time. And in a full squad we maybe make it out 20% of the time.
When you get a killer with certain perks and add-ons, like Freddy, Spirit, even the Hag with her traps, these killers can be virtually impossible to beat.
Then we have killer mains on here whining all day because they are getting t-bagged...
If you aren't getting 2 to 4 kills every match (meaning the game is balanced towards killer) then you absolutely suck.
Of course we should nerf DS, and if we keep the game in the state it's in, n I'm okay, but please, if you are going to nerf anything survivor, nerf the traps of the Hag, nerf Freddy or the Spirit.
Yes we have a problem with q times. That's the only reason why they cater so much to killers. They have to or the game won't survive so I'm okay with it. But killers: a successful match isn't 4k or bust, and again, if you aren't getting 2k or more in most matches, you suck, even my friend who's new to the game can play underpowered killers and get 2 kills each match
Heh. I was going to give you a more thorough treatment but I decided against it. Other people can respond to your arguments. I'm just going to respond to the title of your thread this time. Killers don't "expect" anything. Like anyone else we seek to EARN a 4K. That isn't the game catering to us, nor random luck. A 4K comes from the Killer working hard to get it, and/or the Survivors screwing up and giving it away.
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@ClarityOfWill said:
I'm in two minds about the DS nerf. As a killer it's great because it can no longer be abused, but I can't help feeling that people are missing the bigger picture here. Coordinated SWF's aren't going to care since most of them only bring 1 DS to ensure there is an obsession and then just feed information / smash out generators like it's going out of fashion. What is going to suffer once again will be the soloq experience (as if that wasn't miserable enough). People will either do one of two things:
1) They'll refuse to take any action that will deactivate DS, so people won't get unhooked, gens won't get done, totems being ignored, players with active DS's refusing to heal each other. Face camping will be even stronger as a result since trading and using DS to try and break the deadlock won't be viable (I know, you can slug the trader but it still had some success if the killer got greedy).
2) People will perceive DS to be worthless now and refuse to take it. Tunneling will become even more viable and kill rates will increase as a general trend. If that happens, expect BHVR to start nerfing across the board (hell it's part of the justification they're giving for the Freddy nerfs - not that I'm against it because ######### Freddy).
Nerfing DS is all well and good, but this should have been done in line with looking at tunneling as well as game length in general.
What SWFs do you face? :) I fight Red Rank SWFs every day, and DS is usually in 3+ of the Survivor Builds. They don't just take it once to ensure there is an Obsession. If that is all they wanted, they would just take OoO (and often do have one person take that Perk too).
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I've been working on a write up of some suggestions for a rework, not necessarily a buff and plan on sending it off at some point.
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@Dwigtht said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2011642#Comment_2011642
Spooky -- is definitely not a S-tier build and depends on the map; on Mother's Dwelling it won't do good because of the size of the map, like any other Myers build, but it is really strong in general. I really thought Myers is a weak killer playing some standard builds, like stalk + t3 duration.
I did not perform well.
With scratched mirror -- wow, I have started getting 4k - 3k almost every game. Since then, I've tried multiple different builds on Myers, and I think Spooky is the strongest one for me. Of course there is a tombstone piece, which is also very strong, but for me this one is on the second place.
Then you may have found your personal jam. I also like Spooky better than the other Myers builds. You can play him on larger maps, you just have a very narrow margin of error. I'm glad to know you are out there, we few, we proud, we Haddonfield hitters.
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I want to echo what Aven_Fallen said above. Are you comfortable with Spine Chill getting a rework so that the range at which functions against Stealth Killers is quartered? :) For the record, I already think Undetectable Killers should half the range at which Spine Chill triggers. Doing what you are suggesting just means all four Survivors would have Spine Chill (as it currently stands) in every match against a Stealth Killer.
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@GravyRobbers85 said:
The majority of them just take it for granted you're gonna heal them there, and few use their brains to think to run off and seek cover. Healing the hook in most cases ends up in another needed hook rescue or a farm. This mentality only ends up adding more pressure to survivors and needs to stop.
It depends. Sometimes at the hook, against a Killer that doesn't tunnel, the hook is the safest place to be. They don't assume you are going to hang out there. More to the point, many Survivors (and I mean MANY) take Spine Chill so they know the Killer isn't on the way. Moreover, if you can see from the HUD that someone else is in a chase, you also have time. Where you heal is dependent on a lot of factors.
Also consider what you just said, "few use their brains to think to RUN off and seek cover." The problem with that is if the Killer is the kind coming right back to the hook, he/she will simply see the red marks and home in on the healers anyway. So if you decide moving off is prudent, walking off is generally the best course of action. Otherwise you undo any good you thought you were going to get out of it.
*In short, healing at the Hook is sometimes the best option, but when it isn't... it is painfully clear.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2012370#Comment_2012370
And it wont be used as much, therefore while the obsession mechanic is as it is tunnelling will increase in games with no obsession, if they change the obsession mechanic so that there's always an obsession and its still used less or falls off in terms of popularity like how adrenalin has became a lot less prominent not so much its not used but now I don't account for it every game as I would have use to in the past. The fact of the matter is its not about the one game it hits its its relevance in games as a whole and the anti tunnel aspect applies also to players not using DS if you have ever played killer you would know sometimes you will slug people on the basis they may have DS.
Its unfortunate but perks have often been used as band aids to problems within the game like how realistically you will not be running a killer build without ruin or pop if you dont have the potential to just slug and roll survivors and decisive strikes potential existence not just its use in game is a massive band aid over a reasonably important issue.
And you base this on what exactly? :) The only people using DS to do objectives in the Killer's face, effectively, were coordinated SWF. This tactic was part of 3+ person teams who spammed certain Perks. As has been pointed out many time, in many threads, the super coordinated SWF are not the bulk of matches. Most people take DS as an anti-tunnel Perk, nothing more. Those same people will continue to take it. I don't expect there to be a significant drop (if any) in the number of people taking the Perk. You and I have the benefit of getting to see who is right and who is wrong in VERY short order. There is no reason to try and whine or complain about the change; it is happening. We might as well strap in and see how it goes. If a problem arises outside Perk Spamming SWF, I'm sure it will get addressed. However, I'm pretty confident in my opinion here.
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@Baby_Victor said:
- Learn a top tier killer
- End game build (NOED)
- Lobby dodge if you feel they are try hards. Like, avoid P3 Claudette, Jester Dwight or Legacy clothes.
- Lobby dodge names that are similar or groups of 3-4 or people that mostly bring all same character (IE clones).
- Pay attention to last second switch groups or people and close game prior to you loading into the map. You won’t get punished by disconnect. Or you’ll be dealing with keys.
- Same strat if the burn offerings you can’t deal with, like specific maps.
- Lastly, you could watch killer help videos and learn to be a better killer.
Just some ideas until you get more comfortable and confident, but some killers will never be able to deal. Another option that some people choose is to derank back down to the fun ranks.
And ignore all of this advice utterly, except for perhaps the Killer Help Videos. More knowledge is always good.