Lexilogo
Lexilogo
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I'm not against implementing a universal mechanic to punish deadweight teammates, along the lines of AFK crows. A system that doesn't get false positives very often but can still catch out extreme circumstances.
However, I don't think blocking the Hatch is the right way to go about this, for two reasons:
- Sole Survivors (not to be confused with the perk, I mean people who go into the game with the purpose of never touching gens and just waiting for the team to die while immersed) don't JUST rely on the hatch. They have Exit Gate opening after the Hatch has closed as a backup.
- If the Hatch is blocked like this, it'd result in softlock/game held hostage scenarios where the Survivor is just hiding and the Killer either looks aimlessly or triggers the EDC.
I would prefer something like a debuff that increases in potency as hook states/generators advance, and decreases massively if you get hook rescues/repair gens/break hex totems, decreases slowly while you're in chase with the Killer/healing others/looting chests, and pauses while you're in the Killer's TR. If the debuff increases to seriously large amounts (I would say going ~2 and a half generators' worth of progress without doing any of these decreasing actions) then the game starts feeding the Killer free information on your position like the AFK crows do.
Something like that, I think, could force these Survivors to at least pretend like they care about objectives.
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As a possible idea: Whenever the Killer Grabs a Survivor, they can press some button (eg. secondary power) to throw the Survivor to the floor, slugging them instead of picking them up. Maybe this animation takes longer or something, like the Killer stamping on their leg for a couple of seconds before stopping to leave.
I'm split on that or some idea like it, because on one hand Survivors going into locker midchase for tactical plays is kinda neat, but on the other hand it's a very obnoxious mechanic when it's used in ways like this.
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If a Survivor runs a Killer for 5 gens, it's because the Killer messed up, not because the Survivor played well. When I watch Survivor gameplay of looping Killers for long stretches of time, I see how the Killers make several mistakes on every tile. They try mindgames that aren't working, they fail to hide their red stain, they straight up whiff M1s, they refuse to break safe pallets, they over-respect undropped pallets allowing the Survivor to get away with not dropping them, they lose track of the Survivor entirely, they fall for 360s, so on and so forth.
Even in the worst case scenario (a killer is being looped while the rest of the survivors are all on gens with x3 BNPs) a good enough Killer has a high chance of being able to end the chase before the gens actually pop, depending on Killer selection and the nearby tiles.
The idea that you think 5-gen chases are reasonable against decent Killers really demonstrates you're just mad cuz bad. I don't like throwing out conjecture like that, but it's either that, or you're some kind of salt quarry that's somehow gained the ability to create forum posts.
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@GoshJosh said:
I already don’t like the current effect of the perk. Having perks like this and Sole Survivor (where you benefit from other survivors being dead) is unhealthy for the game, in my opinion. You’ll just have even more teammates waiting out their fellow survivors’ deaths for a more guaranteed escape with a change like this. It’s ironic, because Bill instead was “left behind” as a sacrifice for the good of his friends.
As for an alternative? I’m not really sure honestly. I wouldn’t mind if he got an insane amount of speed boost again. What if it applied a 200% boost to all actions as the last living survivor?
This mostly comes down to subjective visions of what the game should be like, but I personally think that Survivors sometimes deciding to ditch teamplay in exchange for playing selfishly is part of DbD's intended design and probably for the best.
A scenario like Survivors camping the Exit Gates for the whole duration of the game can be more frustrating, but I think that's a question best left for universal mechanics rather than Perk balance. To my understanding it's also a pretty fringe scenario, as most people who play like that will usually at least try to win the game the traditional way first, and give up if it goes poorly.
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While the idea of replenishing Hatchets via hits is lovely, I think it's a concept that would work best as a second Ultra Rare, which Huntress currently lacks.
Iri Head's ability to instadown is fine IMO, and actually kinda cool, it just needs limitation, like requiring hatchets to travel a certain distance before becoming instadown hatchets, or only working on fully charged Hatchet throws.
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0.5s would be a bit long but it'd be more than possible to implement a lock like this to stop macros.
Alternatively, they could just have steadily building Battery drain penalties as you click your flashlight. A second of a human clicking wouldn't drain much but a macro or doing it for several seconds would result in the flashlight running dry.
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@Weeb_H_Toast said:
There must be greater skill-play.
More specifically, in killers.
Trapper: Allow him to frisbee set traps, not far, but enough to be able to throw it over a pallet.
Wraith: Allow for attacks out of cloak with a 6-second stun if the attack is missed. Making his growling louder.
Hillbilly: Change the speed curve from the chainsaw to allow full turning control during the first 0.5 seconds rather than dividing the turn-speed reduction. To make curving more consistent and less reliant on mouse hardware.
Nurse: She's good as is.
Myers: Increase base movement speed 120% T2/T3, reduce T3 Time. to 30 seconds, extend the time by 10 seconds for every successful hit. Survivors know how much evil has been absorbed off of themselves and their teammates (the hud update is delayed.)
Hag: Reduce the number of traps, allow her to return to where she Teleport from with 4 seconds of Teleporting. Allow her to channel for 4 seconds to Teleport to any untriggered trap within range. Trappes cannot be placed within 12 meters of hooked survivors.
Doctor: Reduce base movement speed to 110%, Madness will cause skillchecks to occur when performing all-actions, in cases where the action does not have a progress bar, the survivor will self-inflict on health state of damage if the skill check is failed.
Huntress: She's alright as is.
Fred Boi: Bring back 100% of his old power, let him TP between lockers (60-second cooldown), and survivors automatically fall asleep when within 16 meters of open Exit Gates or open Hatch.
Letherdaddy: He gains a 15% speed boost for 10 seconds after hooking a survivor.
Ms. Piggy: Increase her speed while ambushing. Make Rule Set No. 2 base kit. RBT's now activate on unhooking, rather than generator finish. RBT timer is slowed by 50% during the EGC. Attempting to leave through the hatch with an activated RBT will trigger it. Survivors with activated RBT's gaIn 1 hit of the enduring effect to reduce the viability of tunneling (this does not put them into bleed out, and take priority over perks.)
Clown: Power named changed to Afterpiece Alchemist, Antidote does not invigorate survivors anymore and lasts for 10 seconds (it will still cure effects.). New bottle: Laughing gas: Causes survivors who enter it to laugh uncontrollably, the effects 5 seconds after leaving it, the reduces the survivors turning rate and increase visual distortion and physical slowing effects of the Afterpiece Tonic.
Spirit: The spirit flickers in and out of view while channeling her phase walk. This allows for her and the survivor to get glimpses of each other. Phase lunge has reduced turning control.
Legen: Movement speed is reduced to 105%, Feral Fezeny works the same except it doesn't place them into deep wound, and cannot put survivors into the dying state. Now you need a friend to queue with. 1 Additional exit gate is generated with the trial. (Perks global perks can affect both of you, addons increase base states like lunge distance, movement etc.)
Plague: Sick survivors will go into the dying state should they fail a skill check while broken.
Ghost Face: Fix his hitbox. The speed and duration of his lunge are increased while stealthed.
Demi: His lunge is now a channel, when fully channeled, he does it (you can feather it like chainsaws). The lunge distance is increased,
Oni: He is no longer slowed while absorbing blood. Bloodfury activates automatically once the gage power is full and is always moving with demon dash. He retains full movement control during this (strafing and running backward at 195%.) All attacks during this time are demon dash strikes (the over swing that he does now during demon dash when attacking.)
Dedslinger: Max range is increased to 36 meters, movement speed is increased to 115%. The death slinger now holds 3 shells on his person, which must be replenished at lockers (both a reload and replenish.). The speargun's duribilty charges are now 175 (75% more time to break chain).
gtg ill do pyrmiad head nad twins in a bit
Trapper's change would just mean they'd throw traps at Survivors to instadown them.
Wraith's change is unnecessary because they can already make crazy plays with their super-lunge after uncloaking. And no, hitting an M1 is not "skill based", even below average Killers can easily go entire matches without missing a single M1. That stun could be 5 years long and it really wouldn't matter too much.
Myers' aren't much better. A 120% Killer is IMHO a bad can of worms to open, the T3 timer change just limits his snowballing potential unnecessarily, and I don't think Survivors need to/should be able to keep track of Evil levels.
Hag's changes would make her much more oppressive and capable of area lockdowns, even if she had less traps to work with overall and can't place them near hooks.
Doctor's idea is TERRIBLE, 110% is a huge nerf to his overall consistency in exchange for... Skillcheck gimmicks? Terrible idea, this kind of stuff shouldn't be reliant on Survivors failing Skillchecks, it should be reliant on Killer performance.
I understand missing Old Freddy, and I want BHVR to try the idea of a high information, bad chaser Killer again. But Old Freddy's "if you're asleep and outside my TR, I've got perfect aura reading on you" design was not the right way to do it.
LF's changes are unnecessary, but harmless, I guess?
Pig's are bad. Increased ambush speed is well-intentioned, but I don't think it'd change much as the audio cues are the real issue with her ambushing. You say you're trying to buff RBTs, but I don't really see it. The only serious buff to them is the activation upon unhook, but IMO it's a bad idea, it discourages Survivor counterplay, totally removes most of RBT's incentives to get Survivors off gens (which is the whole reason Pig uses them in the first place) and also creates more potential for guarenteed death RBT scenarios, which are supposed to be impossible in a perfect Pig design.
Clown's are also bad. Making the Antidote not affect Survivors doesn't change anything for good Clown players, and giving him a THIRD bottle to throw and manage... Seriously, I don't get why you'd say the current Clown rework was a "joke", but then submit that giving him a third bottle type would be the right move.
Legion would be utterly busted. Facecamp half the Survivor team at the same time, or 3-gen camp like never before! Also, on a player satisfaction note, chasing Survivors at 105% is painful even if Feral Frenzy's there to get the first hit in, and I'm pretty sure moving at 105% means many infinite loops are possible even in today's maps.
Plague is another skillcheck gimmick that isn't really ideal. Half decent Survivors practically never fail them.
Demo... Why? He can already hold the charge, why implement feathering? Hell, I strongly disagree with this as Demo being able to hold and release Shred at will, especially with Rat Liver, is part of his bread and butter for what makes him subtly unique at looping.
Oni really, really doesn't need these kind of major balance adjustments, he's already quite strong but not unfair. Allowing him to move at 195% during Demon Dash with ZERO movement restrictions is completely incomprehensible in how OP it would be.
Finally for Deathslinger, you really should've specified that you're changing his TR to 32, as just saying he'd be at 115 does not inherently imply that. Anyway, I don't think it's a necessary buff, giving his chains 75% more durability makes them effectively unbreakable for decent Deathslinger players, and a range increase on top of this is nuts. I'm okay with buffing DS as I think he's undeniably weaker than Huntress, but I really don't think this'd be the right way to go about it, as it not only makes him more generic but also lowers Survivor counterplay (on a Killer that many Survivors feel has too little counterplay already) by making the chains have more health.
Don't take this feedback personally, you're spitballing so many large, gamechanging reworks that the majority of them being bad ideas is to be expected.
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A character that creates portals, like, well, in Portal, that both themselves and Survivors can end up using.
These portals link in pairs by default (so A to B, then C to D) but the Killer can manually rewire them from a distance with the Secondary Power function. (Portals that are left without a link will automatically link themselves to the nearest unlinked portal, if none exist it'll just delete itself) On top of this, while Portals can visually be seen through, the Killer can't percieve Survivors on the other end of an open portal.
The portals are invisible to Survivors until the Killer uses it (nor will the Killer be able to use it to see through until then), but Survivors can still end up using the portals if they move into them. These portals can be placed in thin air, or on surfaces, and the Secondary Power button while placing portals changes the portal between vertical and horizontal alignments, so the Killer can have Survivors fall through the floor, then out of the air onto the ground nearby in order to inflict falling stagger and slow them down.
Of course, the main use for these would be disabling loops (eg. survivor teabags behind safe pallet, but you've already created a portal right next to it letting you essentially walk through the wall and get a down) and for moving around the map quickly, but there'd be lots of room to get creative. Would still require advance setup though, and if a Survivor discovers the portal they aren't going to fall for it.
Obviously, the Killer would have a limited number of Portals they could have at once. The Survivors should also have a mechanic to close Portals off, much like Demogorgon or Trapper's counters, to avoid scenarios like the Killer camping every gen at once. A cleanse that lasts a few seconds that only works on revealed portals would work. (as well as potentially a cooldown on going back through the same portal twice, or some kind of "portal sickness" that bars you from using them for a little bit if you run through 3 in the same ~15 second interval?)
Killer designing probably takes a lot of prototyping, and this would almost certainly require waaaaay more bugtesting and map polish than BHVR are capable of, but that's my 5 minute concept.
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Making the game scary is nothing more than a fantasy, I'm sorry to say.
There are some mechanics that make the game scarier, like Terror Radius negating effects, but ultimately it is impossible to preserve a scary atmosphere in a multiplayer environment forever. Fear in general is fleeting when you re-experience the same thing over and over, and that just gets mulitiplied when it's being controlled by somebody else and you're playing in a genre designed to produce lots of replaying of the same gameplay loop.
Also "are you really scared in games like silent hill"... Yes? FPP and TPP games are both 1000% capable of being scary and saying that Outlast/Alien Isolation are scary because of their camera perspective does both games a great disservice. (especially when Alien Isolation goes from a scary game to losing its fear factor, without changing the camera angle)
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Okay, I understand this is supposed to be a positive thread, but I'm pretty sure "Maybe you discovered it one day and got hooked?" is an illegally bad joke in several countries.
Anyway, I really like gamesense and mindgames. DbD is a remarkably accessible way to get that without too many mechanical barriers.
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Not very, but it depends on what one exactly means by "stealth".
If we define "stealth" really liberally as just hiding in general, then of course it has a current place in the game. Survivors never want to give unnecessary info to the Killer if they can help it, even if getting stuff done fast outweighs being unseen.
But if we define "stealth" as playstyles focused around it, then it's fairly underpowered. "Immersive survivors" aren't really a thing in optimised play. Having Survivors that are stealthy-looking is essentially free in a build of course, Iron Will is a good Perk, and if you can chance a Killer not noticing you it's worth at least trying, but generally the match will just come down to looping, gen completion times, and hook pressure.
And that's also not even getting into juking setups, which are debatable as to if they fall under "stealth" or not.
IMO, aside from obvious perk buffs (eg. something like Lucky Break could become a viable Iron Will sidegrade if BHVR gave it some big buffs), would be adding a stealth-centric Exhaustion Perk. (Head On is already kind of a hybrid) If that managed to be good enough to contend with alternatives, it'd go a long way.
Though notably, it's pretty arguable how many people even want stealth to be viable in DbD. I'm definitely in the minority in enjoying hide and seek PvP, but a lot of people in this game and other ones like Evolve have said they don't enjoy it fundamentally.
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"Oh? You're approaching me? Instead of sprinting away, you're walking right to me?"
"I can't pebble the ######### out of you without staying in your TR"
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I think this sounds like a fine concept.
My only potential concerns:
-How this would interact with Deep Wounds, hopefully the Deep Wound timer is paused during the hex progress bar
-How this would interact with gen regression, because I'm unsure whether or not the hex progress should/would halt generators if they're regressing.
That kind of stuff could be worked out via playtesting, though. Fundamentally, I think the concept's solid!
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Frank West would be a very fun Survivor, but I think it's more likely they'd make his outfit a skin for Dwight or someone else, as a cameo in a Resident Evil chapter, like how they got a Galaga charm alongside Silent Hill.
Of course, I use the term "likely" quite loosely, Resident Evil would be a tough license to grab especially in the middle of its renaissance.
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I don't really agree considering Balanced Landing already, in a lot of situations, effectively gets a bigger speedboost than 3 seconds. Specifically, if you've vaulted in order to get your airtime instead of just running off a ledge. There's also the fact that Balanced Landing already has a unique bonus compared to other Exhaustion Perks (negating landing sounds).
I would prefer map changes to make its use more consistent (eg. I don't see why small inclines/ledges can't be more commonplace in maps) and/or other buffs that wouldn't give Balanced Landing extra raw distance to work with over other Exhaustion Perks.
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Oni's story wouldn't exactly make a horror movie, but I'd be down for a fall from grace samurai bloodbath.
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Sure thing, I don't see how an issue could really emerge from Clown switching bottle types "too quickly".
As a sidenote, maybe Clown should have some small audio cue on bottle switches? I don't think that's currently a thing and it might help provide some nice subconscious assurance.
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To plug a post I made just under a week ago about this very topic (I'd advise not necroing it! it's just an analysis on why breakable walls suck and how I'd overhaul them, read if you're interested):
@Lexilogo said:
Today marks the first anniversary of breakable walls' implementation, the day Chains of Hate went live. I think BHVR implementing them was an interesting way to change up maps a little, it's a natural fit for the game, and I even applaud their bravery with Dead Dawg Saloon, going so far as to even experiment with the Killer Shack. This kind of experimentation is genuinely a good thing.
With that said, I think especially with these reworks to old maps such as The Game, it's been demonstrated that breakable walls, in their current state, are hurting the game. Breakable walls were met with somewhat neutral/mixed reactions at first, but as time as gone on, the community's sentiment appears to have soured, and many people actively dread breakable walls being added to maps via reworks.
The problems
- Breakable walls are supposed to create interesting decisionmaking. They don't. Survivors have precisely 0 decisionmaking with breakable walls except keeping track of their destruction. Killers largely ignore breakable walls if they don't create powerful loops/infinites, and are forced to destroy them if they do.
- They're supposed to create secondary objectives for the Killer. They don't. A Killer might pre-destroy an extremely powerful breakable wall if they feel like they have time, such as if every Survivor seems to be immersed and not on gens or right at the start of a match, but if a Killer is ever giving up on Survivor chasing in to go destroy a wall, they simply aren't making a good decision. It's not like a Survivor's interaction with secondary objectives, where they have to weigh up continuing to repair this Generator or going to cleanse Ruin, or deciding if they should be the one to go rescue that hooked Survivor.
- They're supposed to make maps more interesting, varied, and healthier. They don't. At best, these changes have been fairly neutral (eg. the macmillan estate maps), at worst, they have made maps like Dead Dawg Saloon much more polarising for loop locations which usually hurts Survivors unfairly.
My Solution
Killers no longer use the Break Action to break walls. Instead, Killers break walls by moving directly into them, which destroys the wall in the process. This doesn't apply a slowdown or anything of the sort, they fluidly move through the wall Baker-style and it collapses with the destruction FX already present.
The only restriction on this is that Killers cannot do it while engaged in other animations, they must be doing their normal walk. So, you can't break walls while recovering from Basic Attacks, nor can you Lunge through them. If you chainsaw into it, it'll do the break animation, stopping the charge and destroying the wall. If you try to Phase Walk into it, you can't break through and it'll be treated like a regular wall. If you Blink through it, the wall will be unharmed. Pig can't Ambush through walls, or walk through them while crouching. Pyramid Head can't move through the wall while his knife's in the ground. Wraith would be able to walk through while cloaked (it should probably do a temporary uncloak like when breaking pallets), but not while ringing the bell. So on and so forth.
That, of course, is just the default. Exceptions can easily be implemented via perks, addons, ecetera, such as Lopro Chains.
Why this?
First, this creates an environmental prop that directly benefits the Killer, an element that doesn't currently exist in looping and I think could make it more interesting. It automatically creates more potential for mindgaming and skill on both sides, with Survivors being able to try and bait out Killers to consume their walls without getting value, and Killers having an expendable resource of their own in loops they'll have to consider using.
Second, this makes Breakable Walls MUCH easier to balance for, implement in, and account for in maps, as they are no longer a Killer timesink factor- BHVR can go back to the simpler measurements of map size and safe/unsafe pallet numbers to keep track of that. Breakable walls will be usable for mindgame shenanigans, but they will almost never be capable of making or breaking a map's balance. It'll be much harder for BHVR's map designers to mess up a breakable wall, and many if not ALL the walls already in the game will gel with this setup. Walls that are currently pointless now, because they don't benefit Survivors by staying up and will benefit Survivors if they're destroyed, will at least have some level of utility with this change, if Killers spot an opportunity to potentially gain ground in a chase.
Third, this helps better accomplish what breakable walls are supposed to do in horror. Antagonists smashing through walls and doors isn't new, but what Dead By Daylight goes for seems better suited to something like Clock Tower or The Shining, where the Survivor has locked themselves in a room and now must find an escape or hiding spot. That's not what's happening in DbD's chases, where breakable walls are a reprieve for Survivors, not something that heightens the tension and makes things scarier. I won't pretend like maintaining genuine terror in a PvP game is a realistic objective, BUT I think it can't be denied that current breakable walls aren't working with DbD's horror fantasy, because they are designed to make Killers stop chasing Survivors to break the wall they just ran past. These breakable walls should enforce the idea that the Survivor is in danger, but right now, they're exactly backwards.
Fourth, this would provide more potential for Perk/Addon design. Current breakable walls just give break action Perks an extra interaction. THIS version of them would have far more possibilities due to their differences, such as a perk that causes breakable walls to be reconstructed by The Entity after enough time has passed. Or, addons that allow specific Killers to move through Breakable Walls under more circumstances, like Myers being able to lunge through them for example. Of course, none of these would really be practical until breakable walls are added to every map- But I already brought up how I think this rework would also make that process faster and easier.
Finally, I think this or a change like it would make breakable walls more exciting to play with. At present, the best thing I can say in terms of impact of Breakable Walls is that the unique Killer destruction animations are neat. However, much like eating a pallet, dealing with these is a chore. Sometimes chores, like breaking pallets or repairing gens, are necessary to make the game work, but breakable walls are not a necessary feature of the game, so I think it's fair to argue that they should be more fun.
The concerns
"What about Dead Dawg?" It would need to be rebalanced, and it already does. However, I actually think this change making the Saloon less powerful for Survivors will make balancing the map easier, by allowing for the map to be more consistent in looping potential, instead of relying on feast/famine tile balancing. If BHVR don't want to do a larger map rework yet, they could easily cut down on the breakable walls in the ruined buildings to act as a quick, short-term rebalancing.
"What about [insert other map concern here]?" To be honest, I'm actually not sure what maps besides Dead Dawg would be influenced in a bad way by this change. Perhaps Coal Tower? A PTB testing this would definitely be able to discover issues like this though, and hey, if worst comes to worst, some of the walls can just be removed or this change can be scrapped.
"What about BHVR's animation work?" They just canned the majority of their old animation sets for Survivors, this would pale in comparison and doesn't even need new animations, just old ones going unused. And, said old animations could potentially be repurposed later down the line. I will be sad to see these animations go unused too, as I very much appreciate them, but gameplay has to come first.
"Would this be difficult to implement?" No. I can totally imagine some bugs resulting from this, like walls breaking when they shouldn't, but nothing gamebreaking and nothing that can't be sorted out in a PTB. More importantly, this wouldn't require BHVR to develop a SINGLE new asset for the game if they don't want to.
"Would this make Killers too strong?" Hardly. Breakable walls aren't even present on every map yet, which really makes now the perfect time to try a change.
"I'm not so sure I trust BHVR to do this kind of thing..." I'm not sure how they'd mess it up, and if it's any consolation, the last time they reworked a map prop, it was The Hatch, which I think a lot of people underestimate in how much its rework improved the game's health.
"I don't like your rework concept, I have a better one." Great! Reply to this post with it. Though, I'll list one concept I've already heard, and why I don't agree with it:
"Why not have Survivors build breakable walls?" Aside from it being straight out of a Scooby-Doo cartoon? Well, it's hard for me to imagine this optional objective really being worth it effort-wise, unless it was very simple like simply requiring a Toolbox/the Saboteur Perk. Ideas like gathering boards do not seem worth the time investment. Even then however, I'm not entirely sold on the concept, seeing how it doesn't solve the issue of many breakable walls being more advantageous to Survivors while they're destroyed, or how breakable walls are tough to correctly implement in map design.
"But couldn't breakable walls be fixed by changing map design, instead of the walls themselves?" Yes. I believe breakable walls in their current form CAN be okay, if they are used correctly in maps. My issue is more so that BHVR's map designers haven't managed it, and even IF they get it right, they can't work fast enough to fix these problems. If the mechanic is changed in this way, I think it'll make their jobs a lot easier, make them fundamentally more fun, and make the community much happier with the results.
TL:DR: Breakable walls can easily, with this idea, be more fun to play with and against, easier to implement in maps, and stop the community' collective groans whenever breakable walls are added to a new map. This change would also be extremely realistic for BHVR to at least try a PTB for in the next mid-chapter patch, as long as there is enough community desire to have it happen.
Of course, though, I'm not the community. You are, and I'd quite like to hear what others think about this.
The TL:DR of that thread is that Killers should be able to walk directly through walls (as long as they're not in the middle of any animation/action) and immediately destroy them with no slowdown.
Some rework along those lines IMO would allow breakable walls to be used as a Killer-oriented looping resource (like how Pallets are an expendable looping resource for Survivors) which is immediately more interesting than current Breakable Walls, which are essentially Pallets, with less decisionmaking.
The Survivor doesn't get to decide when it drops because it's pre-dropped, nor can they Vault through it, and meanwhile the Killer doesn't really get to decide when to break it in practice, because in practice, it's "does this wall create an infinite, Y/N". If N, the wall might as well not exist, if Y, then the chase must stop so the Killer can go do some housekeeping, instead of how Pallets usually create some genuine mindgames even behind many safe pallets.
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Unnerving Presence can be pretty oppressive with Doctor, while you're still in the presence of Survivors who are realistically capable of failing skillchecks. It'll age like milk, but is a cheeky perk while it works.
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@CryptFriend said:
I see both sides represented--not equally, but I do see both sides being pissy about things with their side backing them up and the other vilifying them.
Sorry you feel burnt-out on it, though. Try having some good old-fashioned hang-out time with your friends and come back to this mess later, yeah?
In terms of thread-making I don't think there's a massive difference, you get Killer complaints and Survivor complaint threads, but in terms of replies/upvotes, it's salty Killers all the way down.
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@TheClownIsKing said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2023532#Comment_2023532
Except there have been plenty of streams showcasing how survivors go from healthy to down within seconds when the ricochet add on is equipped...
The ricochet addon increased (of course that's being changed in the patch) Laceration whenever you bounced. Ricochet doesn't inherently increase Trickster's damage output. If you combo it with the pierce addon, you could get +50% laceration out of every knife, but ricochet itself isn't really the culprit there.
In any case, IF that combo is/was overpowered, what exactly would making it basekit change? It'd just free up an extra addon slot. It's not like Trickster has zero access to ricochets and this is a hypothetical discussion, it's just something he can already do through addons.
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Making 1 ricochet basekit is not a gospel idea BHVR HAVE to follow, but it would be a really easy way people pointed out for BHVR to give Trickster:
- A significant buff
- A unique skill curve that seperates him from other Killers
- A unique selling point that seperates him from other Killers
BHVR didn't grant an alternative idea that helped with any of those issues people brought up, and if they did, they'd be riding the hype train right now. They made some QoL changes to Main Event and modified his Trick Knives addon. It's not about doing THIS specific solution, it's about attempting to fix THESE specific problems.
This isn't anything new, it's not the end of Dead By Daylight, and I have reasonable hope ricochets WILL become basekit anyway, as BHVR don't seem to think PTB feedback warrants significant change and appear to use it more for bugfixing feedback and tuning.
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Basing any Perk's reliability on BP ratings, especially Deviousness, is a slippery slope IMO as those things aren't supposed to impact Trial gameplay. It essentially makes every Score Event value a true balance issue, which is a bad can of worms to open. (Plus, BP score events are just a bad way to measure if a player is performing well. it's more like a measure of how long the match has gone on for)
Even if Insidious gave you a flat minute of Undetectable when the Exit Gates get powered, which is already a massive buff over your suggestion, it'd still be utterly terrible. I would much prefer an idea that riffs on Insidious' current concept whilst removing facecamping potential, such as the ability to stand still in chase to activate it, but having it preserve the Undetectable status for a few seconds while allowing you to continue moving.
I want both these Perks to get reworked, but these are terrible ways to go about it.
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This is an extremely inaccurate whitewashing of the brutal decades of Emperor Dwight's tyranny. I'm ashamed and disappointed.
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@Pirate said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2018293#Comment_2018293
Diversity? You mean not anymore 90% Claudette/Meg/Nea?
That's a massive extaggeration. Even among Survivors who only care about SFX and size, there's numerous solid picks like Ace.
The problem with the "survivors should be more than skins" mindset is if we were having this discussion in 2015, it'd be fine, but this is 2021, when people have used Survivors AS skins for the longest time. Reverting that philosophy would mean two primary consequences:
- Numerous people would be booted off their mains because they're now terrible in comparison to other Survivors
- Numerous people would be stuck with essentially useless cosmetics they bought with real money
Plain and simply, if you want to add gameplay changes to something that was previously cosmetic, it's NOT something you can do after release and certainly not years after release. There is simply no way to reverse that vehicle without running lots of people over.
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Hackers definitely suck.
In regards to camping, there are some Survivor perks that can combat it. Kindred is a notable one that's not linked to any specific characters or DLC, as it's an informational perk relating to hooks. Aside from Perks, you should practice "hook gymnastics" if you don't do it already. Repeatedly spamming the self-escape so a Survivor is wiggling their hands up and down signals to the other Survivors that the Killer is nearby (because all Survivors can see hooked Survivor's auras) while remaining stationary is a signal that the coast is clear.
Re. Changing camping, I definitely feel like more could be done. A few fairly conservative suggestions I'd throw out would be:
- Making some aspects of Kindred basekit + buffing Kindred to compensate
- Reworking the Killer Perk Insidious to gut its camping potential and hopefully give it more genuine viability
- Giving Survivors BP rewards if they tough out hook timers instead of suiciding/failing self escapes, especially if they died on their first hook
Thanatophobia feels worse than it actually is. It's not really an overpowered Perk. It's true that the Killer keeping everyone injured isn't a massively tall order (especially for Killers like Legion) but even on those Killers, it's still a conditional effect they have to actively keep up + maintain, and it's not too harsh even while it's maxed out.
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@chadbeastofprey said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2019246#Comment_2019246
are you aware that there are perks and add ons in the game that make the killer's terror radius fluctuate?
also yeah i'm aware if they make it range based that depending on the range/killer i will still hear the terror radius sometimes, what is your point? my whole point is that currently i cannot determine where i should be to not scream. if it's a set range then i have more of an idea.
IIRC the only way for a Killer's TR to fluctuate and grow larger is via Monitor & Abuse, which doesn't apply to Infectious that much if at all? (EDIT: I forgot Agitation, but that definitely doesn't work for an Infectious Fright surprise) Unless there's a case where a Killer very briefly enters chase and ends with with a quick down.
Anyway, I definitely disagree with this thread. I'm more sympathetic to this kind of rework with Borrowed Time or something, but Infectious Fright being linked to the TR is an important synergy and more Perks should be actively building on TR synergies/setups in my opinion.
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I know there's "no reason at all for this" but I'm genuinely interested as to why such an out of left field suggestion would enter one's head like this.
IMO it would make more sense as an Addon (because it's an extremely odd thing to throw onto a Killer's base kit) and if it did something aside from Haste, like temporarily doubling the range his Shocks go.
I think that'd be alright, allowing him to kick a gen he's chased some Survivors off, then immediately transition into Madness buildup on the escaping Survivor despite the new distance.
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3 minutes does feel like a lot, and I think it would be a little too much.
With that said, I DO really like the idea of totem brightness changing over the course of the match, and if you just removed the "totems cannot be cleansed until radiant" clause I'd really like this concept. If Hex totems were visually indistinguishable from Dulls for the first 45 seconds, it would enrich Survivor decisionmaking and give Killers a bit of a bulwark against bad RNG. And, it'd give an extra little bit of Survivor skill in recognising if a Totem's actually a Hex Totem for that 2:15 gap where the Hex totems aren't 100% clear. (though ideally, totem locations and survivor spawnpoints are the real culprits, survivors should IMO never spawn with any totem in their immediate view)
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Doctor is fairly middle of the road, balance/power wise.
He doesn't snowball, but that's because he's like Pig, based on steady pressure instead of getting multiple downs. You use his Power to shorten chases on the whole (either forcing survivors to use pallets inefficiently, or ideally shocking them in order to deny their use of environmental props and getting free hits) and combine it with Madness' free information to move between individual chases much faster.
Ideally, you want your game to start NOT with "Oh, here's a survivor, imma chase them" but instead with "Let's try static blast here. Oh hey, two/three Survivors, I'll pick this one and see if I can predict where the other one's going to go so I can follow up immediately once I'm finished."
And the Exhaustion Perks thing seems more like a "you" problem, with all due respect? Doc isn't any more vulnerable to them than any other Killer, aside from really good Dead Hard users being able to dash through a shock. Survivors gaining distance on you is annoying, sure, but you can easily make up for that distance by crushing their loops fast.
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Correction: "The Shinning" is part of The Simpson's Treehouse of Horror V special (Season 6, Episode 6). I don't normally nitpick spelling errors, but that specific thing makes this thread kinda funny.
Also, while The Shining is a really iconic and fantastic horror film, Jack Nicholson's likeness might be tough to get, Jack Torrance isn't really himself if he isn't allowed to be screaming and doesn't lend himself well to a Killer Power concept, and unless they did the adult Doctor Sleep version of Danny he'd be a child Survivor which is essentially unworkable.
I'm also skeptical about the Overlook Hotel becoming a DbD map due to its size and scope. Too many iconic areas to squish into one map, I think, plus the issue of kinda needing non-Euclidian geometry to properly represent the place's true atmosphere.
Don't want to be too much of a downer though. The Shining WOULD be a very hype licensed chapter.
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We've finally found a counter to Hag: Public stoning.
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The first thought that comes to mind is activating your power, then taking your hand off the mouse/stick so if it does move involuntarily, it won't screw up your camera orientation. For Pyramid Head especially, that might help.
Unfortunately, DbD doesn't have secondary binds so if you were to reassign the Use Power button to make this easier instead of keeping a finger on M2, you'd have to fully adapt and commit to using the new option.
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Give every Killer a backpack they can use to carry a pile of 7 generators on top of each other, Death Stranding style.
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@apathyinc said:
Survivors need a door breaching charge item that blows up the wall and blinds everyone who looks at it.
Dead By Daylight: Rainbow Six, starring Thermite as a Survivor and Tachanka as the Killer.
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I think I'll have to pick Save The Best For Last.
It's powerful without being too overpowered, and having lots of stacks feels so good.
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I believe it's simply The Entity tormenting him, as the cutscene's preceded by a shadow grabbing him by the leg and pulling him presumably towards the tower he investigates.
The Observer's tried to kill himself in Arcus logs and it doesn't work, he just wakes back up in his tower. That IMO confirms this can't be a genuine vision of the future.
I also don't think there were multiple Observers before him. This of course depends on how DbD's multiverse works, and frankly I don't think BHVR's writing team have one consistent model for it, but the Observer comes from Terra Primus, which was one of the first and most advanced worlds in discovering their place in the multiverse and categorising other universes. The Observer body he discovers is also pretty clearly him, not someone else fufilling the same role.
So, unless there's lots of different variations of Terra Primus, with lots of different Observers who all went through the same character arc and had access to the same resources, which the Observer never really acknowledges as possible in his Arcus logs, it's also not an alternate Observer. He doesn't muse on whether or not another version of himself or another version of Terra Primus might have a better chance against The Entity, and seems to mourn Terra Primus as relatively unique.
This probably happened towards the middle of his story when he was exploring the other realms, which was a thing The Entity was most likely enabling so he could show him stuff like this and screw with his mind as much as possible. This manifestation is most likely trying to send the message that THIS is going to be what happens to the Observer, he's going to lie in his chair, drink whiskey, and listen to memories forever.
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If you have Borrowed Time, you're healthy, and the Killer can't instadown or cheese BT with a Terror Radius influencing effect, you can reliably at least have a chance to leave the Basement itself.
There's also some other fringe scenarios, like being able to use Head On to get a killer stun or timing a really good Dead Hard.
However, usually if the Killer has seen you going towards a hooked teammate and is following you, a hook trade at minimum is probably inevitable. That holds true even outside The Basement, and The Basement is supposed to be an advantageous area for the Killer.
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I think the issue with this is that it lowers the one perk interaction/synergy No Mither is supposed to have with Resilience and etc, starting the trial Injured to activate those Perks from the getgo.
I would prefer something like "Killers will always percieve you as Healthy and unbroken on their HUD."
Neither of these ideas would truly make No Mither practical, of course. But, it'd certainly go some distance in at least making it a little better.
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I don't think Yumi was anybody special in particular. She's shrugged off as "a victim" with her only notable trait being the fact that her screams got worked into a popular track of his. He most likely has/had an entire library of screams he was working and experimenting with.
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I don't think this is worth a proper breakdown, seeing as the overwhelming majority of Killers, discounting their actions in the Trials and just assuming they were sent straight to Hell instead of being abducted by The Entity... It's not that interesting, considering most of them would end up in Level #7, Violence. Sure, characters like Deathslinger are motivated by wrath, but their violent actions would presumably override their wrathful nature and they'd go straight down to the seventh level.
I'll just list all the Killers I consider exceptions:
Demogorgon and Pyramid Head aren't people. N/A.
Hag would probably end up in level #6 for Heresy.
Plague definitely gets off light, as I think she'd end up in level #1, Limbo, which is where "unbaptised pagans" go if they lived virtuously, which I think it's fair to say Adiris did as far as we're aware.
Spirit would presumably fall under Wrath, because she didn't actually commit that much violence before entering her current state. Probably level #5, Wrath.
Freddy would probably end up in either level #2, Lust, or maybe Wrath, had he died normally. As the Dream Demon, he'd qualify for Violence, but frankly Freddy's pretty at home in hell and could probably go wherever he wants.
Blight is actually kinda hard to suss out, but I think even pre-abduction, Talbot Grimes could qualify as "addicted" to his craft of chemistry at the expense of other people's wellbeing, and so could end up in level #3, Gluttony.
Doctor probably qualifies for Level #9, Treachery, thanks to the content of his Tome lore, knocking out his research assistant while his back was turned. Trapper might also fall under this too, if he indeed locked his dad in the basement to starve. One could argue Hillbilly goes in this category too, for killing his family. And finally, as a member of the samurai class, Oni would most likely also classify as a "traitor to his lord and benefactors", and thus recieve the second-harshest punishment possible in hell.
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Devour Hope's fine. All of its current issues are problems with the Totems system in general.
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I think a better ranking would look something like:
I based this primarily off what would need to happen to the Killers in order to make them "perfect" in whatever way.
Trapper or Myers have amazing Powers that have aged better than most realize, they'd be able to get a lot done with some simple tune-ups.
Characters like Leatherface or Demogorgon aren't perfect, but a rework would probably be more trouble than it's worth and in their current state, they're alright.
Meanwhile, a character like Legion would need a massive reimagining to make their power work well. At present Legion is reasonably balanced, but the core issues with Feral Frenzy are still present, BHVR just covered up the problem by preventing Feral Frenzy from downing.
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Charms are a lot better when they're unique models instead of wood blocks with different textures. It'd be a lot better if perhaps the texturing on the blocks/coins could be used for other stuff too, like engravings or something. Just hanging off hooks or your survivor's butt isn't very impressive.
@Phasmamain said:
If they need to fill out the free tiers I have an idea. Loading screens
These could be old concept art and art from cosmetic collections
This is definitely a solid idea and it's not unprecedented. Don't Starve Together does it pretty decently.
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I said this on a different post, but there isn't actually any evidence Victor is biologically male beyond the pronouns used, and in life the Deshayes wouldn't have had any indication Victor was male or female because his lower half was, you know.
So, I think it's reasonably likely that Madeline simply had "Charlotte" in mind for a girl and "Victor" in mind for a boy, hence the naming scheme.
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Well, we can't know precisely, but:
- We know he extracts compounds from other plants as confirmed by some of his addons, much like how Claudette gathers plants for medicine
- He uses elements extracted from Killers, such as the plague's bile, as confirmed by his addons
- He uses "soul chemical" (DMT) extracted from human pineal glands (The Doctor was also interested in it. it's a real and very powerful hallucinogen, though IRL you'd have to be really silly to do brain surgery to try and get a dose, it's naturally occurring in plants)
- There are also mentioned "chemical treatments" in some of his addons, so The Fog is most likely providing him with other generic lab chemicals to treat and preserve his serums.
Though, in the present, Blight is probably too busy tripping out of his mind to get any serious chemistry experimentation done. Compound #33 is defined as his "penultimate serum", so #34 is probably the last serious one he finished and tried on himself before entering his current state.
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Haste is a powerful status effect, but frankly if it's a few-second buff after being revived from the Dying State I don't think it'll do much of anything.
Re. Gearhead I think Chili_man sums up the issues with your proposed rework. IMO this would be a better rework for Gearhead:
Scrap its overly confusing and underwhelming nonsense in exchange for: Whenever a Survivor performs a Great Skill Check on a Generator, that Survivor's aura is revealed to you for 10/12/15 seconds. When Gearhead reveals a Survivor's aura to you, it informs the Survivor on their Perk HUD.
This keeps the Perk's skillcheck mechanics without making it completely useless if Survivors are playing perfectly. With this, even if Survivors play perfectly with the skillcheck system, they're still having to choose between gen progression speed and revealing their auras.
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I've seen no shortage of these discussions in regards to reworking the cost/allocation of Perks, but frankly I don't see why it would, in any way, be a superior solution to just buffing or reworking the Perks in question.
If anything, it just creates more potential for imbalances.
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Let me break down the situation in a different way. If you choose to chase the survivor to the hook, one of these three things could happen:
- You down them and now have 2 simultaneous hooks. If that pressure doesn't win you the game outright, it will certainly stall all generators to a halt and will be potentially 2 devour stacks already.
- You trade them off the hook or interrupt an unsafe hook rescue, which is still an overall good thing for you. You don't get a stack right now, but you have a stack you could claim later.
- You screw up monumentally and somehow allow both Survivors to get away despite them performing a hook rescue in front of your face. This is a terrible outcome, but it'll only really happen if you get horribly outplayed.
I like those odds, and I really don't see the problem with Devour in that situation.
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@romones848484 said:
Listen wether you like it or not,you just arnt a good killer,get better
Did you seriously just necro a thread so you could tell somebody to git gud? Did you LOOK UP "undying" so you could find people salty about Undying's nerf, specifically for that purpose?
With that said, this thread has aged like milk now that Decisive Strike is actually getting nerfed. Hopefully the OP has since gotten their head out of their partisan butt.