Firellius
Firellius
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@Akumakaji said:
Question: what if the new DH would just count hits in its 1s window as a miss, and don't give neither a deepwound effect, nor a speed boost? Maybe without a DH animation. It would allow to counter a hit, gain a bit of distance and reach that pallet or vault savely, but you couldn't just zoom off to a new tile set, and it would require some skill.
Thoughts?
You would get so little distance out of it that it'd probably drop to a near 0 pickrate. I think Overcome would just overtake it at that point.
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@Bot_Salvo88 said:
the way you're wording it seems like a 1v1 situation
It does not.
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@DrDeepwound said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3022034#Comment_3022034
this
I am guessing most people weren't around back then, I ran enduring back then. The fact the increase was tied to Enduring and then they made Enduring no longer affect that particular stun, it is time to revert it back to 3.
Why?
Just because Enduring no longer reduces the stun from it, doesn't mean the stun itself should be made negligible. DS has always been a low value perk outside of EGC, as it is one of the easiest to counterplay perks in the entire game. Now it loses the one thing that kept its value up and gave it consistency, and on top of that, it's getting a 40% nerf to its efficacy within the now much more limited scope it works in.
DS was a trash anti-tunnel perk, but it was the only anti-tunnel perk, which is why it had a high pick rate. Honestly, with the EGC (Or rather, post 5th gen) activation removed, it could've been made baseline and used as an in-built anti-tunnel measure.
Now the perk is an extremely niche and probably overall really bad pick, except against completely new killer players who've never once been DS-baited, and with the OTR changes, it has 0 reason to exist.
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@CosmicParagon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3019410#Comment_3019410
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3019066#Comment_3019066
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3019756#Comment_3019756
One word for all of you: Counterforce. Pop one totem, and you can chain all of them within two minutes. Best part is you nearly max out boldness without even encountering the Killer
That would depend on the map, wouldn't it? Heck, even on the most generous maps, I doubt you'd be able to pop them all within 2 minutes, and that's even assuming the killer is never encountering you once after your quadruple cross-country trek. And that's a perk slot and a bunch of time investment to counter a perk the killer might not even have.
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@D3spair said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3022268#Comment_3022268
If being fully healed doesn't make Endurance go away then. It's either go for the Broken injured Survivor or keep chasing the Now Healthy Survivor that still has endurance because of the 80 Secs duration.
Okay, but if it did make Endurance go away, you'd still have a fully healthy survivor you're chasing, over one that is broken and is guaranteed to not have DS or OTR.
There's a certain limit to how much you need to be protected from making a series of really egregious mistakes. You go after that full health survivor that might have DS/OTR, instead of the broken, injured survivor that is guaranteed to have neither is -your- error.
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It was high risk, high reward. Getting first hook before the totem's found would often swing a game heavily in the killer's favour, but otherwise, the perk was largely harmless.
Now it got double-nerfed and I don't see it getting much/any usage. Maybe the deactivation upon survivor death was fair, but the regression rate nerf was not.
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Post-patch OTR fills the same role as pre-patch DS, even bringing back the EGC problem they tried to fix for DS here.
OTR is slightly worse though, because an OTR bait can't be punished like a DS bait can.
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We don't know if BT and OTR stack.
Also, if you're tunnelling that hard, you deserve having all countermeasures sprung on you. All of these are extremely counterplayable, with the exception of DH, which will be decently counterplayable.
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@D3spair said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3022123#Comment_3022123
Extremely situational. I don't see this being a negative though, the current problem is Off the Record giving essentially a 3rd health state.
If someone swoops in and Uses For the People on Survivor mid chase, who do you think the Killer will go for? The Healthy Survivor probably with DS or an injured Broken Survivor?
Uh... that's an argument against your suggestion. If the killer will go for the FTP person anyway, OTR won't make a difference.
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@jesterkind said:
I'll have to test it in action on the PTB, but that change does feel questionable to me too.
Maybe it's to further incentivise other anti-tunnel perks? Still, I think DS would be fine and its pickrate would still drop even with the five second stun.
The problem is, there'll be only one other anti-tunnel perk, and it's going to blow DS out of the water with the cut-down stun. OTR will activate off both unhooks, last longer, and work during EGC.
DS was meta because it was the -only- anti-tunnel perk, so nerfing it to incentivise other anti-tunnel perks makes no sense.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
I agree with everything you wrote and i wanna add these things:
- Killers have early game issues, they nerfed best early game without fixing issue.
- Survivors have camping issues, they did not add anything for it. And no, basekit BT is anti-tunnel, it is not fixing issues with camping.
- Survivors have tunnelling issues, they nerfed best anti-tunnel perk for no reason. End game part okey but why stun time nerfed?
- Kicking generators is still pointless for killers, 2,5% is another joke.
- All general killer buffs will make Nurse stronger, while she is strongest killer in game. Because her blink hits are m1.
- OTR buffed from useless to busted level. This perk can not make to live, it should not.
I don't think new OTR is going to be busted, it's just going to be old DS. Which includes the activation during EGC part, which was only just fixed on DS.
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@Huge_Bush said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3019785#Comment_3019785
It is healthy because without something as threatening as NoeD, survivors will never cleanse totems unless it’s for a challenge or for Inner Strength.
And the skilled part is getting the survivor to death hook in order to kill them. NoeD only removes one health state, it doesn’t magically reduce hook states.
That haste effect as well as the instant down are rewards for playing the majority of the match with three perks, making the game easier for survivors. The fact that the perk can be disabled before it comes into play is plenty of counter to it. With the upcoming change to it, it’ll now glow like a beacon in the dark, making it easier for survivors to nuke it. Only the death hook survivors would have anything to fear and should just avoid the killer during endgame.
Really, the only time NoED is a problem is when it’s a camping Bubbi, only it’s not really NoeD that’s the problem, but Bubbis camping ability, which should have been what the devs looked into. But I guess his sales are too good and they don’t want to risk nerfing him.
It is healthy because without something as threatening as NoeD, survivors will never cleanse totems unless it’s for a challenge or for Inner Strength.
The point of this thread is that NOED, in its current form, doesn't encourage survivors to cleanse totems. Inner Strength and BP are basically the only reasons to do it. NOED is a good reason -not- to cleanse totems.
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@Phasmamain said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3018989#Comment_3018989
Yeah I don’t see any case where DS is better than OTR now. Killer attack cooldown is 2.7 seconds and add the speed boost you can actually get more distance with OTR than DS plus it lasts for 20 seconds longer and doesn’t have the potential of missing a skill check
And OTR works off both unhooks, and, more stupidly, works during EGC.
So they 'fixed' DS, and then reintroduced the problem with OTR.
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I think most people agreed that removing its use during EGC was fair enough, but prior to the announcement, most of those people also agreed to have it trigger off both unhooks, rather than just one, as compensation.
Now it got its EGC usage removed, which is fine, but then it got another nerf dumped on top of it, so now it's more situational, and worse in the more limited situation in which it occurs. OTR is going to massively outperform it until it gets nerfed to crap and we get tunnelling meta back.
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@Adjatha said:
I also like how they removed the BP bonus from BBQ and WGLF, but only WGLF got a buff to compensate. Hey, how about some P A R I T Y
WGLF was absolutely trash outside of the BP booster. BBQ & Chili was quite valuable outside the BP booster. Scrap the BP boosters, and only one perk will have a pickrate above 0%.
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@Carth said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3014413#Comment_3014413
Because kill rates have probably dropped to below 50%. They aren't releasing stats but have stated 50% is their goal, and in the past few years kill rates across the board have trended down to 50, if the trend continues we might well be in the ~40s atm(or even lower). Also 20 seconds of 7% haste and endurance? That's insane, I can already picture the ridiculous body block shenanigans as well as what you can pull off with a green medkit + healing speed buffs.
The problem lies in trying to tone down or scrap anti-tunnelling/anti-camping measures on account of them being too punishing if the killer tunnels/camps.
That's the point of these measures. They are supposed to be rough and inconvenient for the killer in those specific scenarios.
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@Krazzik said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/329884/they-actually-nerfed-self-care
Self Care was one of the most popular survivor perks so why would they buff it?
Just because something is picked a lot doesn't mean it's good.
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@anarchy753 said:
Off the Record is the new BT.
You have to run it because nobody will run BT any more, because having 4 OTR is infinitely stronger than having 4 BTs now.
If the whole team has it, everyone essentially has BT for 4 times the duration it has now. No more waiting out BT to hit the obnoxious player bodyblocking you after they've been unhooked, because they're protected for 80 SECONDS. It completely takes away the killer's agency in countering off-the-hook bodyblockers because now you're forced to hit them or they're a pain for a minute and a half.
I hadn't even thought about this, but you're right: If they don't implement 'Endurance = no killer collision', then OTR is going to massively exacerbate the BT bodyblock.
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Pretty sure these changes fix nothing. Camping might be exacerbated. Tunnelling does get a bit of a nerf because new OTR is current DS, but slightly better.
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@Sepex said:
Is there any link or url to perk change descriptions?
You'll find it here: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/kb/articles/337
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@Steel_Eyed said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3015269#Comment_3015269
I disagree on a couple fronts. What you described is exactly what they’re trying to do: Knock players off the most used perks and entice to new ones.
Plus, I think the chase is the most fun aspect of the game. Making a tunneled player being chased a longer duration is a punishment and also keeps the fun going. Much better, much preferred to the current five second bop on the nose that DS represents.
But if the new one is functionally identical to the old one, just with a new name and a new flair, it doesn't accomplish anything. It's just a waste of dev resources. Old DS made the killer waste extra chase time if they tunnelled someone off hook. New OTR makes the killer waste extra chase time if they tunnelled someone off hook. They both last 60 seconds (OTR going up to 80), activate off being unhooked. There's some subtle changes, but really, OTR serves the exact same function as DS, with some minor changes.
But most egregious of all is that OTR reintroduces the problem that DS is getting nerfed for.
It's just baffling to me.
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@StarLost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3015269#Comment_3015269
It has a bit of a different usage.
What makes OTR attractive is that you can bring it yourself, and won't have to rely on the chumbawumbas in your group to bring BT.
I predict a lot of OTR survivors teabagging for minutes in the exit gates is going to be a thing though.
I'm not talking about OTR replacing BT, I'm talking about it replacing DS.
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@Steel_Eyed said:
Reminder that they buffed killer base mechanics too. They get a small STBFL base and survivors sprint for less time. Yes this is an extra health state but killer recovers faster and survivors do not get as much distance.
I'm not worried about Off the Record being OP, but it's just dumb to double nerf an already bad perk, only to then mega-buff another perk to exactly take its place.
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The stun duration nerf and the Off the Record changes are the dumbest thing I've seen in DbD patchnotes yet. Why fix one problem with DS, then nerf it outright without fixing the other problem, then introduce a new perk that doesn't have the DS problem you left intact, and reintroduces the DS problem you fixed!?
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DS, possibly the most counterplayable perk in the entire game, got a double nerf with no compensation.
-Clearly-, the devs want Off The Record to simply take its spot, since it now serves roughly the same function, but for a little longer, and it works off every hook, including EGC unhooks.
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@The_best_killer_main said:
Ok this event is the WORST thing ever it's unfair .
I was in a match and 5 gen's where done in less than 3 minutes. That is not acceptable , what's the point of playing then . Your just going to get gen rushed anyway. Even if you bring strong perks like blood Warden and ruin you still can't do anything. Either they get rid of ruin In 30 seconds or you cant even catch anyone to hang them to activate blood warden. You stand no chance as killer in this event.
I'm a bit slow, but I just now realised...
If you're complaining about gens being done too quickly, why are you saying 'even when you bring Blood Warden'? What's Blood Warden got to do with that?
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@Grandpa_Crack_Pipe said:
Genrushing because of tunneling because of genrushing because of camping because of genrushing because of
This is basically the crux of DbD's biggest issues, and they're all sustaining each other.
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DS, minus EGC
UB, but only at gens and much slower
Corrupt Intervention.
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With all the complaining about 'second chance' perks, why wouldn't you DC on first hook? According to these forums, you only get one chance, and that was it.
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@DyingWish92 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3007691#Comment_3007691
They used FTP while I was in my attack cooldown, that's not getting outplayed. The game wouldn't allow me to react in time to stop it. Only way I could have avoided that was to have 8 stacks of STBFL.
That means they timed it -perfectly-. You got outplayed.
Unless they were both running together without bumping into each other, in which case they played -that- perfectly.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3008187#Comment_3008187
You can see your team mates when you're hooked, you'll be able to make that call.
Yes, but that makes it -more- situational, making it weaker overall.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3008180#Comment_3008180
You would use it when camped. That automatically means the killer won't be at the hook you teleport to, and chances are another survivor will be closer. Could even make it guaranteed to be further than 40m away or something, increasing the odds even further.
Just as situational as Unbreakable, etc. only used when slugged.
It'd suffer from the same problem as Deliverance though, where if your teammates are actively trying to rescue you, this perk wastes their time. And if you teleport off to another hook, they still have to get to you. What if you teleport to the other side of the map and no one can get to you before you lose a hook state?
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@Seraphor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3008147#Comment_3008147
Teleporting closer to a survivor and further from a killer, is significantly better than Deliverance. You get a free hook rescue and no chance of being tunnelled off the hook.
You didn't specify that it would be closer to another survivor, you just said 'another hook'.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3008109#Comment_3008109
Like every other situational perk then?
Deliverance already has a cost to it, because of how powerful it is, the drawback is you need to have the killer leave the hook to use it.
This would arguably be even more powerful than Deliverance.
Unless you're well co-ordinated, Deliverance is a trash perk. The perk you're suggesting would be directly worse than Deliverance, since it doesn't actually do anything for you, in and of itself. If you then heap on additional costs, it's just going to be an unfeasible pick despite supposedly being a counter only to a specific tactic.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3008053#Comment_3008053
This would be a good idea for a survivor perk if you ask me. Similar to Deliverance, you use an escape attempt to move to another hook. Providing it comes with a decent cost like unhooking another survivor prior, and consuming all 3 unhook attempts in one go, or something.
The cost would be taking up a perk slot for a very situational perk. No need to add a couple dozen more drawbacks to it.
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@SleepyWillo said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3007693#Comment_3007693
just make gens faster when a killer is near the hook and no survivors are near.
this way it only really effects early game camping and end game remains uneffected
Define 'near', though. Because if the killer can just stand on the edge of that area, they could circumvent the countermeasure without giving up camping.
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@Tostapane said:
what about genrush? this is one of the causes of killers camping... if you want resolve camping, you have to resolve how fast gens will pop 1st (i bet that the numbers of players camping will be greatly reduced in that way)
Slowing gens down is a direct and unmitigable buff to camping, so no, you do not first slow down gens. These issues are inextricably linked and should be dealt with at the same time.
Don't utterly ruin the game on a feeble promise from 'killers' that 'they'll be good, I promise!'.
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@Advorsus said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3007540#Comment_3007540
I don't think it's For the People by itself. As a perk itself, it's not bad and isn't crazy strong, it's fine. The problem, and their main point, is the amount of second chance perk stacking that can be done. You can stack 5-6+ seconds chance perks in the span of 45-60 seconds and do it quite often. It sucks and it's unfun to have played well, better in fact then your opposition, and not only do you not get a reward for it, you actually get punished for it and could actually lose the match because of it. Not their skills, but of poorly balanced perks and game mechanics.
"It sucks and it's unfun to have played well, better in fact then your opposition"
The issue is that you did not, in fact, play better than your opposition.
Ghostface is an M1 killer. Which means you were on top of the downed survivor. Somehow, the other survivor managed to get in without getting hit themselves, use FTP, and get out without getting hit as well. Either they timed it perfectly and got them up during the swing cooldown, or they had a stand-off with the GF which they somehow won. Either way, the OP got outplayed outside of perk usage.
FTP is the perk in the game with the absolute highest skill ceiling. You didn't get 'second chanced', you just got outplayed.
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@Cancan71 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3005841#Comment_3005841
Same here. It should guarantee a skill check after 8 seconds of continuous healing if no skill check appeared during that time.
Bam, this perk is now usable, while still being worse overall than Circle of Healing, so no one can complain about it being overpowered.
I don't think that'd be enough to save it, but it's hard to fix without also undermining what's so fun about the perk.
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Autodidact. It's fun, but it's more likely to help the killer than the survivors.
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@gatsby said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3005392#Comment_3005392
I still feel like the Survivors could abuse that. Sorta like how two downed Survivors can stack on top of each other to prevent the Killer from choosing which Survivor to pick up and cause an accidental Decisive Strike.
That's why it's specifically survivor-killer colission, not colission in general.
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@gatsby said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3005371#Comment_3005371
If a Survivor is healthy, the hit wouldn't count as a protection hit. And maybe the description could be reworked to say hit within 2m of an injured Survivor to be more strict than a protection hit.
That's still fumbling the purpose of the perk and narrowing it down dramatically when the only problem with it is BT bodyblocking.
A much, much more tailored solution with no collateral damage is to have Endurance remove survivor-killer collision for the duration.
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Borrowed Time - (nerf) - if a Survivor takes a protection hit with endurance, the endurance effect is ignored.
This would be a crippling nerf that would demote Borrowed Time to F tier, mostly because it's very unlikely for Borrowed Time to proc without the unhooker still being nearby, thus qualifying any hit taken as a protection hit. It'd narrow the usability of this perk down so badly that the only perks that would be worse than it would be No Mither and Autodidact, which are both actively detrimental.
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No reason to do that, since there's no way the game will live if Swiffer is removed.
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@pseudechis said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3003751#Comment_3003751
So what you are saying is not being caught doesn't help you complete your objective as survivor?
What are you doing in chases if you aren't avoiding being caught?
Even if your goal is to waste the killers time by distracting them so your team can get gens done that involves not getting caught.
The whole premise of survivors is to escape by completing gens and opening gates, participating in this means not being slugged or hooked which means not being caught by the killer.
Its pretty clear what the game is about in fact I'd say its blaringly obvious.
The only part of that that make any sense is "It's fine if there's consequences to being caught. It's not fine if the consequence is that queue + load time < actually playable time." That is a player population/match making issue not a gameplay issue.
I mean 'not getting caught' as in 'not being found'. Which isn't feasible in the game, most of the time.
And no, it's not a matchmaking/server population issue. Or rather, it's not just down to that. It is absolutely a gameplay issue that camping, tunnelling and slugging exist -at all-, all of those being able to cut gameplay time down tremendously. In my view, camping in particular is a lynch pin for a ton of very egregious balancing issues, and a lot of the game's more glaring problems can't be solved as long as camping exists.
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It's getting changed, it hasn't been specified whether it's a nerf or a buff.
But yeah, a straight up nerf at this point would be unjustifiable. But with the devs saying they know why it's being picked up, who knows, maybe some of its functionality is being moved to the baseline with some additional adjustments.
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@pseudechis said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3001204#Comment_3001204
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3001378#Comment_3001378
Define strong then because it sounds like strong killers are those who can catch and eliminate you but then the reply is Myers is annoying because he is strong and can eliminate you. Add to that anti loop is annoying, stacked slowdown is annoying, slugging and bleeding out is annoying, global effects and triggers like nightfall are annoying, anything that threatens players ability to progress the game as they please is apparently annoying.
Lets face it what people want is a strong killer that can’t actually prevent you from playing or eliminate you, in that scenario what makes the killer strong?
Then after all that you have to play fair because it’s not fun to be eliminated so there is one way to play which is largely detrimental to the killer objective.
So what is it about killers that people want to be strong because anything that’s strong appears to be unfair and annoying.
So you’d rather be afraid of the killer because he’s powerful and threatening… I don’t believe you.
Sounds like the “powerful” killer you want is as unthreatening as they come because there is zero game consequences to being caught.
The game isn't built around 'not being caught'.
The problem is that the game doesn't know what it's supposed to be about. If it's about not getting caught, why do killers get aura reading perks and abilities? Those fully negate the idea of hiding from killers. Generators also can't get done if all everyone does is just hide.
So then it becomes about running the killer. But then there's killers that specifically try to counter that by making loops harder or impossible to do.
Additionally, the game was built from the ground up to give every survivor THREE chances. Slugging, camping, tunnelling all break that core concept down. It's fine if a killer can put you on the hook, but it's not fine if you then stay on that hook until you die. It's also not fine if you get off the hook and immediately get downed again and go back on it. It's also not fine if you get slugged and spend the next two minutes lying on the floor, unable to act.
It's fine if there's consequences to being caught. It's not fine if the consequence is that queue + load time < actually playable time.
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@[Deleted User] said:
What exactly was fun in ending the game earlier? Or being tunneled because of a key?
Honestly, outside of swiffer, it had its appeal. Trying to guide a rando to a hatch you can open up was its own kind of mini-quest. I've got some fond memories of hatch plays.
Trouble is that the damage to the other side's gameplay was too extensive, and I can't really think of a way to bring it back without that, so it's best left where it is.
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@DrDeepwound said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2996877#Comment_2996877
Exactly, so Devs made "Swivel Hooks" to make sure that survivors can get unhooks now.
Which highlights my point, devs wont change hooks to allow killers to hook if being bodyblocked by 3 survivors and no, you cannot hit all 3 unless you run Mad Grit so stop with that. You proved my point for me.
Survs want to be able to bodyblock hook prompts but oh no, a killer is standing too close to a hook.
The game is about denying the opposing side unhooks and hooks, thats what the game boils down to so it is the EXACT same thing imo. Survs would be able unhook from back too, but you dont want that, you want to bodyblock unhooks, as I said, imagine the irony.
Which highlights my point, devs wont change hooks to allow killers to hook if being bodyblocked by 3 survivors and no, you cannot hit all 3 unless you run Mad Grit so stop with that. You proved my point for me.
But then you've also got literally no progress being made on the survivors' objective. They're not coming out ahead on this.
The game is about denying the opposing side unhooks and hooks
No it isn't. Those are side points. And killers are still perfectly able to deny unhooks. Just not by just AFKing on top of a hook. Now they actually have to put in effort.
And before you try to go in with a 'well the survivors can AFK on hook!', again, no they can't. Because they'll get smacked down and then the killer has free access to the hook again. That's the critical difference.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2996854#Comment_2996854
Of course i´m using my own perception. Just like everyone else uses his own perception. I give you the benefit of the doubt in regard of the undying and camping threads.
Now, what is your opinion on gen speeds?
I think they're a necessary evil since they're underpinned by the threat of camping. You can't slow gen speeds down, since that'd be a direct buff to camping. So until camping is addressed, they have to stay as they are.
On the flipside, BNPs can get Fd. Those were a terrible idea and are the real equivalent of early moris, though slightly less drastic.
I also think that a direct nerf to gen speeds would hurt the gameplay loop a bit, but there's creative solutions for that.