Firellius
Firellius
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@SuzuKR said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2908492#Comment_2908492
Uh, no. Oni can do stuff like 540° flicks by default. Also, 90° flicks are literally intended.
It had a turn rate limitation back when I played. Unless you're talking about the wind-up before the dash, in which case, yeah, he can adjust as fast as he can move his cursor. But once he's dashing, he can only veer, not hook or flick, IIRC.
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If you were up against an Oni making a hard 90 degree turn, you were up against a hacker.
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I'll never stop singing Fixated's praises as a stealth perk, but I also absolutely love the playmaking potential of For the People.
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- Run NOED
- Teabag the killer
- Tunnel
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@NemmyMan3000 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2905791#Comment_2905791
Killers side gets nerfed more than Surv side
They also get buffed more. There's more mechanical content there, so it's going to attract more balance changes.
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@HisLilGuppy said:
Couldn't the same be said for both sides? Honestly killer and survivor mains both cry and complain and keep getting each side nerfed and it's getting ridiculous I play both so I've noticed it on both sides getting stupid at this point
Unfortunately, both sides are getting nerfed, but not in the way they need. The game is still really cut-throat, making players optimise the fun out of the gameplay.
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Basically, while people still love the concept of DbD, they just don't want to play it anymore in its current state.
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@Murgleïs said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2904557#Comment_2904557
No, validation is not meant to compensate lag on the survivor side.
That is incorrect. The game used to only consider the killer's input, now it checks which of the two came in first. This means killer lag is being compensated for. Survivor lag still hinders them just the same, since it means their input is received later by the server.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2904834#Comment_2904834
Sucking at the game and/or being a newcomer is not an argument it's emotive. New killers can't deal with pallets, vaults, or chases so should we remove stun and block windows? No? Are some newcomers more special than others?
If you can't hit the check you don't get the strike just like if you don't hit the check on an overcharged gen you take the additional progression loss, just like if you don't hit the check you notify the killer of where you are repairing.
You can be as adamant to the contrary as you care to be, I'm certainly not going to expend further energy going back and forth with you. You will deal with the objective reality whether you want to or not.
Cope.
Sucking at the game and/or being a newcomer is not an argument it's emotive.
So is the rest of game design.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2904702#Comment_2904702
No I'm not. You're trying to use semantics because you really want the skill check from DS gone, it to be automatic and always successful, and you know that you don't have an argument to support it.
I and many others have an "actual founded objection" to DS being made easy and that would be that the entirety of survivor gameplay is already easy and that you do not deserve nor have an entitlement to equipping a perk and be allowed to walk out of the exit gates with no potential for failure.
Yes, you are. And you are doing it again.
There is an argument to support it, as has been mentioned multiple times in the thread already: It makes the perk more accessible to newcomers and it alleviates the impact performance issues have on the perk's functionality.
Meanwhile, the counterargument has amounted to little more than 'but that makes it easier!', which isn't an argument. You're proposing jank for jank's sake. At least Angy still manages to eke out an 'it's a killer nerf', which, while it is an -incredibly- feeble argument in this particular context, is still an argument.
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@AngyKiller said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2904702#Comment_2904702
Bottom line: No one has any actual founded objection to the skill check on DS being made easy.
Ah yes; the old 'If I ignore the valid arguments, I can say no one has made valid arguments'. 🤦♂️
Yes, they have. It's nothing but a transparent attempt to make DS a get out of hooks free perk. It does nothing except handhold Survivors while making the game that much harder for Killers.
There is 0 valid reason to do it, other than 'Survivors want it'. People who can't hit skillchecks learn to get better by hitting them. You don't remove it for everyone 'for the newbies'. Which, by the way, is a laughable excuse. This is not 'for the newbies'; that is a smoke screen for just wanting an 'I win' escape clause with 0 input by Survivors.
New players need to git gud and learn to hit skillchecks. There has been 0 valid arguments for this change. See how it works in reverse?
Ah yes; the old 'If I ignore the valid arguments, I can say no one has made valid arguments'
Thanks, mr. 'DS is free because a perk slot isn't a real cost, though I will just quietly ignore the other cost points you mentioned'.
Seriously though, you and the other one arguing against this skill check being made easier are talking about a version of DS that hasn't been in the game for years. That's not relevant argumentation.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2904571#Comment_2904571
Claiming that losing a hook state before use means it's a risk is like saying Wake Up is risky because you have to wait until the gens are done and so happen to be the first to the gate. Those aren't risks.
Killers aren't upset for not being able to go for 12 hooks. They have no problem with you dying on the first hook I'm quite sure. But if the devs want the killers to play for 12 hooks then they should stop implementing things that make that unfeasible.
You being caught and hooked is not the killer's fault, it's yours. The killer has one job and that is to kill you. It isn't to make sure you enjoy your game or exit with a pile of blood points.
First you were talking about condition, now you're back to talking about risk, when in reality the discussion was about cost. You're flipping through different arguments so fast, I can't keep up.
Bottom line: No one has any actual founded objection to the skill check on DS being made easy.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2904530#Comment_2904530
Being hooked is not a condition you met it's a consequence of poor play. Not using a perk is not a risk. If you didn't use it you simply didn't need it.
You are not a victim because you weren't given an easy rescue. You failed to play safely and were downed. You have no entitlement to a save and if you do get one you have to accept it however it comes. Safe or unsafe. DS offers you a potential out from a quick rehook and is not meant to be a protection from a second or third hook, or a get out of jail free card at the end game.
Time is the only thing that matters to a killer. Survivors can take 2 hours to do gens if need be a killer can not do the same in return. Having to wait a full minute to rehook you can be 1-3 gens done and/or the gates opened.
Being hooked is not a condition you met it's a consequence of poor play.
It is still a condition, but more than that, it's a COST. You have to have lost a hookstate in order to use DS. DS is not 'free' like you and Angy like to cry out. It's got the steepest price a survivor can pay.
You are not a victim because you weren't given an easy rescue. You failed to play safely and were downed. You have no entitlement to a save and if you do get one you have to accept it however it comes. Safe or unsafe.
You can tell that to all the killers that are rightfully upset with the game not allowing them to go for a 12-hook strategy, because that is the fault of exactly this attitude.
DS offers you a potential out from a quick rehook and is not meant to be a protection from a second or third hook, or a get out of jail free card at the end game.
So it protects from a quick rehook and is not meant to protect against rehooking. So basically, in your vision, DS should do literally nothing. Even if the killer opts to chase down a survivor that was just pulled off the hook, even if they actively decide to pick them up within 60 seconds of being hooked, even if the killer does everything in their power to make one of the most conditional perks in the game proc, it's somehow still not the killer's fault.
God these forums are a mess.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2904483#Comment_2904483
That's not a risk. That's like saying Boon:COH or Self-Care is a risk because you might not ever be hit but in the event you should be hit you would have the ability to reset the encounter. A risk would be taking Slippery Meat that only applies on the hook and with each use brings you closer to sacrifice upon failure.
Killer players know all about playing with three perks. It's called a hex totem and frequently they are gone within 30 seconds or long before they ever offer a single crumb of value. You take your chances.
Those are still risks. They're extremely diminutive risks, but they are still risks.
But what you're consistently missing is that it takes more than just being hooked (Which also immediately invalidates the 'it's free!' argument. A hookstate isn't 'free'). You run the risk of coming up against a killer who isn't a complete idiot and doesn't just bullrush you off-hook and then immediately picks you up. DS is extremely unlikely to ever fire because it requires the killer to be really bad at the game.
DS is a trash-tier perk, it's just that if you don't have it, it can set up an immediate loss.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2904431#Comment_2904431
Nope. Everything has a consequence and it's why you won't get it. There are no free escapes and something as critical as escaping the killers grasp will never come consequence and risk-free. That consequence is equipping a perk for it and hitting a skill check. Anything less and the end game becomes a matter of opening the door and watching the guy with D-strike walk out. We've had that meta before even with the skill check and you will for sure have it again if it became automatic and always successful.
'You won't get it', he says, after calling DS 'risk-free', despite initially responding to a post that outlined how conditional DS is and how unlikely it is to fire unless the killer is making a string of mistakes.
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@Dionysus42 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2904459#Comment_2904459
It's an easy strategic choice if you have DS, and especially if you have Unbreakable as well. In that case, it's a loss for the killer no matter what.
If they just keep going for the other person, at the very least you bought them time and distance with the hit, and you just pick yourself up
If they pick up, you DS them
If it was really meant to be an anti-tunneling perk and nothing else, it would deactivate when somebody else gets hooked, since in that case the killer is obviously not tunneling
It's an easy strategic choice if you have DS
Is it, though? I mean, in the situation you describe, you've not contributed to your team -at all- since you were pulled off the hook, and now you're going to spend a lot of extra time and a one-time use perk to buy another survivor a bit of time and distance.
That doesn't look like a good trade to me, at least from a survivor's perspective. It's great for the killer when someone tries this, because it means that he's got half the survivors unable to progress the game, at minimum.
If it was really meant to be an anti-tunneling perk and nothing else, it would deactivate when somebody else gets hooked, since in that case the killer is obviously not tunneling
How would this change the 'offensive use'?
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Anyway, the skill check can just be made easier without consequence.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2904237#Comment_2904237
No, the skill check is to have some gameplay in what should be a survivor hooking and the most integral part of killer gameplay. Just like Boilover and the wiggle meter requires skill checks so too does Decisive Strike.
There is no entitlement to a free, easy, or safe escape from the hook. It doesn't matter whether you are camped or tunneled. If you were entitled to that you would simply respawn somewhere randomly on the map after being hooked nor would there be a sacrifice timer.
A culture in DBD developed that demands the first hook to be without threat from an assumption that because you can be hooked 3 times before sacrifice means you have an entitlement to three hooks. You do not have that entitlement.
There is no entitlement to a free, easy, or safe escape from the hook.
Read.
Just. Read.
A culture in DBD developed that demands the first hook to be without threat from an assumption that because you can be hooked 3 times before sacrifice means you have an entitlement to three hooks. You do not have that entitlement.
Your attitude is precisely why the game is in such an awful state at the moment. I could elaborate, but you're probably not going to read anything I write anyway, since you didn't do that for the post you responded to.
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They've been looked at, and there's no way to slow them down without handing free victories to anyone who chooses to camp and/or tunnel. They have to be this fast in order to not break the game further.
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@AngyKiller said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2903915#Comment_2903915
And it's 1 of 16 perks to the Killer's 4 per match.
There's been 0 valid argument as to why it should activate with no chance to miss other than 'Survivors want more hand holding and effortless escapes'.
No perk, bar none, should ever, ever give Survivors a 100% free and guaranteed escape with 0 input required. This is a change that has 0 reasoning behind it other than 'Survivors don't want to fail DS' and 'Survivors want a guaranteed escape'.
Again, AGAIN, every single killer has every single opportunity, five times up and down the line, to NOT let DS trigger. If DS triggers, that is entirely YOUR fault. You have a plethora of counterplay options, if you actively choose to employ NONE of them, you deserve to have this perk triggered on you.
DS ISN'T 'FREE'. You single out ONLY the perk slot requirement but waltz completely over the hook state requirement, the non-participation requirement AND the required misplays from the killer.
The skill check is an old left-over from when DS WAS free. But it no longer is. So it deserves to be reconsidered in its current form.
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@AngyKiller said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2903807#Comment_2903807
Except those few times someone misses it can be the difference between winning and losing. Living and dying.
People want it removed and that basically is taking away a chance for the Killer to get a kill by saying 'I want my hand held and to never risk failing a DS skillcheck.'
It CAN be failed, which means it IS failed, which is the point; it's not a 'Get out of hook free' button, which is what this thread wants to turn it into; they want to NEVER fail DS again with a 'Think of the NEWBIES!' argument meant to hide that it's a direct nerf to Killers by removing any and all risk of failure.
Edit: I HATE this bleeping cloudflare sometimes! Every second post; a little window pops up that basically means 'You can't post, and you can't save this draft. Enjoy losing it as you are forced to refresh before you can post again.'
Free? It requires a perk slot, a hook state, non-participation and a series of misplays on the killer's part before it does anything.
How is that 'free'?
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@AngyKiller said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2903582#Comment_2903582
The difference being the Killer's goal is to stop Survivors via killing them.
The Survivor's goal is to escape. Not to stop Killers. That's the difference, and why Survivors should not have perks that punish Killers.
Instead, Survivors get to punish camping, punish slugging, punish tunneling. And now they think it's not only normal, but expected to do it more, and want perks changed to literally auto-DS and reward them if they do it better.
That's why this game barely has any Killers left. Because it's so Survivor-sided that Survivors think 'Let me have Auto-DS, and reward me with bonus stun if I hit the skillcheck' is a good idea. Because they have been conditioned to think 'I punish Killers' instead of 'I try to escape'.
And with DS, they escape the killer's grasp!
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@SuzuKR said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2903390#Comment_2903390
And not tunneling, like I said, is a dumb decision in several scenarios. I think DS is fine as is. It does not need any more help. I agree DS in its current state is good and healthy design.
NOED doesn’t need team coordination, you can do it yourself. You are oversimplifying the argument. Yeah, you can just choose not to go after the person off hook. It’s also still a stupid decision in multiple scenarios to not chase that person. Totems spawn off a few rules for their possible locations. Check them while playing normally and going around the map, and check them later or just leave. NOED is not that strong despite its bad design (since it can activate without the killer doing anything).
And not tunneling, like I said, is a dumb decision in several scenarios.
The problem is that not tunnelling is a dumb decision in pretty much every scenario, if you take DS out of the picture. It is just way too effective a tactic due to the way the game is set up.
But seriously, the skill check being made easy is not going to do any harm to the killers but it will improve the accessibility of the perk to anyone with sub-par hardware performance.
@Aven_Fallen said:
Killer Mains will be against every Survivor Buff. Even if it does not really affect them, because DS-Skill Checks (at least on PC) are rarely missed IMO. (But on the other hand, tunneling Killers are swinging when picking up a Survivor who might have DS...as if that will make them miss, lel).
Personally, I think the Skill Check can be removed. It is a relict from a time where DS did not have an activation requirement other than just being picked up. And with Ds being that strong back in the day, a Skill Check was justified. Nowadays the Killer can decide if they want to deal with DS or not, it has an activation requirement and gets deactivated by basically doing anything.
I would rather see a Buff in the Anti-Tunnel aspect, but we know that BHVR will not do that. So, yeah... Skill Check can go, it is outdated.
Skill Check can go, it is outdated.
I want to hit the brakes there: The skill check should be made very easy, not removed. The way the skillcheck functions also forces survivors to use it very shortly after being picked up, and it is critical that that aspect is maintained. Yes, you could create a whole new system where it has a limited activation window, but it'd be more development hassle than simply expanding the hit bar.
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@SuzuKR said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2903322#Comment_2903322
Flashlights can be easily baited and avoided/turned into a kill on the person with it instead. Pallet drops can be baited out to dodge the stun. The one and only way for the killer to avoid DS of their effort is to forfeit the down they earned for 60s or redo the entire chase after a 5s stun. Furthermore, tunneling is a strategy with specific situations where it is stupid to not tunnel.
NOED doesn’t punish doing the objective. It punishes not remembering (NOT not doing) the secondary objectives. Remember totem spawns and any totems you see along the way. Re-check and destroy NOED if it appears, or just leave. NOED is simple to play around and get rid of, and is not that problematic unless someone was already death hook.
Flashlights can be easily baited and avoided/turned into a kill on the person with it instead. Pallet drops can be baited out to dodge the stun. The one and only way for the killer to avoid DS of their effort is to forfeit the down they earned for 60s or redo the entire chase after a 5s stun. Furthermore, tunneling is a strategy with specific situations where it is stupid to not tunnel.
No, you can avoid DS by simply not chasing down a person who was unhooked within the last 60 seconds, unless you catch them disabling their own DS. You can also avoid DS by waiting out its remainder, which will not be 60 seconds unless the person literally got slapped down the moment they were pulled off the hook, in which case you have already been handed the entire game on a silver platter and that 5 second stun won't stop you.
Yes, Tunnelling is a strategy. So is running DS.
NOED doesn’t punish doing the objective. It punishes not remembering (NOT not doing) the secondary objectives. Remember totem spawns and any totems you see along the way. Re-check and destroy NOED if it appears, or just leave. NOED is simple to play around and get rid of, and is not that problematic unless someone was already death hook.
So NOED, which requires you to memorise all totem spawns and/or active totem locations while coordinating that with a team with which you cannot communicate, is 'simple to play around and get rid of', but it's hard for you to not go after a person who was just unhooked, or just refuse to hit spacebar once they're down?
There is a limit to accommodations.
Yes, there is. But this sure as hell ain't where it's at.
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@AngyKiller said:
Yes, it does need a very hard skillcheck.
The idea is that you're literally preventing the Killer from progressing his sole objective of killing you, after a chase, after 4 or 5 pallets, and after Dead Hard and another 50 second chance perks, plus bodyblocking, flashlight saves, pallet saves... It needs to be hard to pull off and easy to mess up.
Regardless of how some Survivors think the game should play out; the Killer is supposed to get a kill now and then.
If you hit 4 or 5 pallets in that chase, you're not hitting DS. Not to mention that all of this can be avoided if the target you're going after is -not- the one that just got pulled off the hook.
@AngyKiller said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2903162#Comment_2903162
Tunneling is a tactic. If someone is the weak link; why should the Killer get punished for removing them in order to slow down gens in order to buy more time to kill?
All making DS easier to do does is buff a side that already has 5000 different ways to avoid being hooked.
why should the Killer get punished for removing them in order to slow down gens in order to buy more time to kill?
Because the killer is the one that decided to faceplant directly into the opponent's perk. The same way a killer gets punished for actively staring directly into a flashlight, or chasing under a pallet when the survivor drops it.
You have the option to counterplay it, and it's not hard, either. It's one of the most avoidable perks in the entire game.
Let's draw an analogy to the other side: If the survivors genrush the killer down and then NOED pops, should the survivors get punished for doing their objective?
Or would you say that the survivors
decided to faceplant directly into the opponent's perk
?
EDIT: To answer the topic at hand, the skill check is a remnant of DS's original form, which I believe could be used without requiring being hooked first. It needed more drawbacks back then, this was one of them. Now that DS has settled into its new role, it can definitely afford to be made unmissably easy. It should still stay as a skillcheck, just because it's a neatly tied up way to ensure that DS is used very shortly after being picked up, to save killers having to walk all the way up to the hook and then having the survivor jump off last second.
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I think a CoD comparison might be even wilder than the hockey one.
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Keys and their add-ons should be reversed. Currently keys open the hatch and their add-ons give aura reading. Instead, the system should be changed to bangles that can be used to read auras (Lowest tier sees allies, mid tier sees windows/pallets, high tier sees killer aura) with an add-on key that allows you to open the hatch.
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One idea I had is to have a number of lifeless objects around the map that the killer can swap control to. Like the map being littered with mannequins that could spring to life at any second.
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2897405#Comment_2897405
Whether you agree or not, the dev’s logic was clear: overused things get nerfed. OP is right to point that out
Except if the overused thing wasn't nerfed, but buffed, the devs' logic can't really have been 'overused things get nerfed', can it?
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Pig.
The bulk of her power is stuffed into a fully RNG autokill mechanism. There is no way to redeem that. It's trash for Pig if the thing comes off on first box, it's trash for survivors if it comes off on the last box. And as a result, her stealth has to be garbage to compensate for how overpowered her RBTs -can- be.
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Streetwise, Ace in the Hole, Plunderer's Instinct, Appraisal.
Go full on dumpster diver. It'll absolutely lose you the game, but you can shower your teammates with gifts.
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Killer gameplay, at base, is incredibly flat.
Survivors have a variety of tasks that need to be accomplished. Find gens, do gens, keep an eye out for the killer. Find totems, find items, dodge the killer while going for an unhook. Try to help your teammates, open doors, hide from the killer. And of course, there's the all important chase. There's dynamism and variety, one second you're in a heart-pounding chase, the next you're taking a breather as you work on a gen.
Killers, in comparison, have almost no elements to their gameplay. Find survivor, chase survivor, hook survivor. From there, you either rinse and repeat, or camp. You are -always- on the clock.
Put simply: The gameplay design for survivor is a TON more involved than for killers. I think that's also leading to killers complaining about survivors being OP, then posting a screenshot of them getting 3K+: Killer gameplay isn't fun unless you are in full control of the match, which is generally only going to happen if you're stomping the survivors.
So I think that a lot of balance complaints also stem from killer gameplay being flat.
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@JeanCharpentier said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2892809#Comment_2892809
If a killer plays optimally why should he/she lose ?
Fact is killer playing optimally vs swf playing optimally will result in a win for the survivors 100% of the time on any map. That is the main problem. The game is not balance and favor heavily the survivors.
The only way to make it fairer would be to remove some windows and at least 30 to 40% of the pallets (70% on the game map). Then we would get a 50/50% chance of winning for both sides but many survivors would cry as most of them rely on broken perks abuse and many strong loops to win.
If a killer plays optimally why should he/she lose ?
That's where the 2K comes in. Maybe a 3-hook and EGC camp one match, or a double camp kill, or whatever the case may be. Yes, it probably won't be a 10-hook match, but since no one wants to give up camping or tunnelling, the game has to be balanced towards camping and tunnelling being employed literally all the time.
So leaving the game as it is where survivors can do all gens + open the doors under 7 minutes is okay for you ?
People aren't okay with this, but it's a necessity because killer players don't want to let go of the methods THEY use to put these kinds of time constraints out.
You say people camp and tunnel because gens go so fast, but conversely, gens go that fast -because people can camp and tunnel-.
Fact that most killers need to use 3 to 4 slow down perks to have a fairer match (but still favoring the survivor) is a joke. Killers cannot use perks that help them, they are forced to use corrupt/pop/No way out... it leaves 1 free slot, awesome.
Do you not see the irony of complaining about this after highlighting DS, BT AND UB in the survivor loadouts? Your opening screenshot alone shows you with only one of the perks you say you need, but shows 3 out of 4 survivors with at least 2 of the band-aid perks.
Corrupt/Pop/No Way Out are all perks that also help the killer, that are part of their core power set, whereas the survivor perks are things that simply hinder the killer but do literally zero for survivors unless the killer plays into them. (Again, with the exception of the BT bodyblock which needs to be removed)
The survivor meta is far more set-in-stone than that of killers. Hoarder is meta on Pinhead. Agitation + Iron Grasp makes Basement Bubba. Distressing is a serious option for the Doctor. Stridor is a good pick for Nurse.
Yes, most killers will gravitate towards slowdown or gen defence perks, but even within that, there is variety. Pop, Corrupt, Ruin, Call of Brine are four perks that are all directed to the same process but do it in different ways.
Flipside: DS is the ONLY anti-tunnel perk.
Both sides are treated like trash by the game right now. The cut-throat, competitive attitude that SBMM introduced screwed up the game's core premise and brought all of its worst problems boiling to the surface. But until we can reach a consensus that is more than just 'survivors should just get shafted while killers get to keep their sweatlord-isms as a back-up plan in case they happen to lose', nothing is going to change.
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Power-wise, I think we kind of hit that mark with the Oni.
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@JeanCharpentier said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2892680#Comment_2892680
Otz would never win a single game against a good SWF playing optimally, not a single one.
He wouldn't deserve to. If survivors play optimally, why should they lose?
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@StarLost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2891933#Comment_2891933
It's absolutely not a waste of time. Time it right and you can bodyblock without fear, then hop into a locker forcing the killer to eat a DS.
So...what? You want to make a rule against tunneling or something? Make it so that a killer has to 2 hook everyone before killing someone? Make it so that you have to ignore people even if they run directly into you?
That's going to get silly fast.
You cannot make a rule about something when nobody can even agree with what it is, for starters.
It's absolutely not a waste of time. Time it right and you can bodyblock without fear, then hop into a locker forcing the killer to eat a DS.
How? How are you going to -force- the killer to make the active decision to chase you down after hitting you and then open the locker? What if the killer sees your obvious DS bait and goes /ignore on your behind and just resumes what he was doing before you slowed him down by 3 seconds?
And keep in mind that this requires 8-16 seconds of investment from another survivor on top of your own time sunk in order to heal up. Effort which is immediately wasted because you don't give the killer a chase, but a bodyblock.
Also keep in mind that after moving away so the killer doesn't interrupt your heal, then healing 8-16 seconds, then finding the killer again, you will have spent probably upwards of half your DS timer, so a smart killer might just sit out the other half and take the free, chase-less hook on you. Which is going to be your second hook at best.
A DS bait can only work if the killer lets it. I've been hit with it before, when I was just starting out, and it was very frustrating, but it was -very- obviously -my- fault for falling for it.
So...what? You want to make a rule against tunneling or something? Make it so that a killer has to 2 hook everyone before killing someone? Make it so that you have to ignore people even if they run directly into you?
No need to make a rule about it. We've got the band-aid solution to kneecap DS. Problem is, it takes up a perk slot.
DS should just be moved to baseline to weaken tunnelling. It can be tweaked from there (Giving killers a HUD indicator for which survivor was unhooked last so they can more easily keep track between four identical Claudettes, randomising duration so it can't be timed as easily, increasing/decreasing stun duration, adding a short burst of untraceable) if it needs to be made stronger or weaker, but it gives a baseline system to prevent killers from just hard focusing one target out ASAP.
A similar sort of mechanical change could be used to weaken camping, pushing for more of a chase oriented gameplay style and taking away the motivation for gens going as fast as they do.
Ultimately, we can't just let killers keep super sweaty, overpowered tactics while balancing the game around killer players that refuse to do everything they can. As long as people respond to tunnelling/camping complaints with 'it's a valid strategy', it's valid for any survivor to demand that killers sweat harder if they want their win, and to disregard any 'survivors OP' complaint coming from people who 'don't want to tunnel/camp'.
And that is the cesspool that is current day DBD.
Given enough time, players will optimise the fun out of a game. And that is exactly what happened here.
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@StarLost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2890865#Comment_2890865
DS used defensively - no issue.
DS used offensively - annoying.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2891040#Comment_2891040
'Tunneling' isn't 'playing dirty'. There is no rule against it.
Tunneling itself is totally fine - it's not the killer's responsibility to distribute damage evenly.
The only situation where it's a problem is when a teammate unhooks you in the killer's face, or tunnels you right off the hook, and that's probably a camper.
'Survivors' aren't OP. Certain elements of the game, however - ranging from map design (Eyrie, Badham) to SWF mean that at the upper end of things, it's very stacked against the killer. You can go and watch Otzdarva doing his killer tier tests recently, if you want to see what I mean. Particularly his Iri Myers games. He didn't make any significant mistakes, survivors played sloppy at times - and he could barely get a down, because several incredibly strong tiles spawned together and could be chained.
DS used offensively - annoying.
Also a general waste of time for the survivors, so not something to complain about.
'Tunneling' isn't 'playing dirty'. There is no rule against it.
Tunneling itself is totally fine - it's not the killer's responsibility to distribute damage evenly.
And this is why the game won't move away from the super sweaty gameplay.
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@Kurri said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2891453#Comment_2891453
You were bad enough at the game you got hooked in the first place. I am not going to argue about this when there is literally millions of videos proving the current state of the game. I literally don't even run second chance perks myself, because it's pointless when I am good enough at the game I don't need them.
All right then, let's balance around survivors never getting hooked once, if that's what you wanna go for! Can't imagine any other killers will want to see that, but you know... You do you, I suppose.
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@Kurri said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2891260#Comment_2891260
Yeah when you don't know how to run to safe tiles, or escape the killer you take Decisive Strike, and Dead Hard (etc) to fix your mistake.
Killers have to take regression perks (etc) to slow the game down just to have a balanced match.
Survivors can win just fine without the use of Perks. Most killers have to take perks or are ultimately useless.
How is DS going to help you out there? It doesn't do anything except under the very specific circumstance that you
A) didn't do anything to help the survivors since you
B) last got unhooked
and
C) you get downed and picked up in under 60 seconds.
All of which is 100% circumvented by the killer hunting down literally anyone else.
DS is extremely conditional. You take too long on a chase against someone with DS, that's your fault. You get hit with DS, that is, again, your fault.
Survivors can win just fine without the use of Perks. Most killers have to take perks or are ultimately useless.
Well Otz managed to win with every single killer, without perks, and while sitting still for the first 30 seconds of the match. Sure, he tunnelled and camped his ass off to get there, but as long as those are options that killers can go for, they need to be considered when talking about balance.
You may not want to tunnel, but as long as you are choosing not to do so, you are not playing optimally and you can expect to be beaten by those that do.
@Winchester89 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2890865#Comment_2890865
Why? DS is also a problem for someone who doesn't want to tunnel. If survs want to use ds to bodyblock, then it's their own fault if they get tunnelled. the problem is not the killer then.
It's still the killer's problem, because that bodyblock comes from someone who has done nothing to help their team and is, at minimum, going to eat up about 30 seconds of the survivors' manpower by getting slugged out. All you have to do is not pick up a survivor that was pulled off the hook in the last 60 seconds. They throw themselves at you? Slug 'em and focus on your intended target.
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@Kurri said:
Might be good to mention that Survivors take perks to gain advantage, and fix possible mistakes. Killers take perks to balance the game. "Meta" perks for Survivor are not the same as "Meta" perks for Killer.
This is a result of trying to balance the game around the use of "band-aid" perks.
I think you've got that backwards.
Every 'meta' killer perk is designed to give them some sort of advantage. The survivors' meta perks, by and large, are the band-aids that are meant to diminish the power of specific killer tactics. If the killer doesn't tunnel, DS does nothing. If the killer doesn't slug, UB does nothing. If the killer doesn't guard the hook, BT does nothing*.
The survivor meta has been plagued by band-aids that react to how oppressive the killer is playing. Killer perks support the killer in disregard of how the survivors are playing.
*With the exception of BT bodyblocking, which should obviously be removed.
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@MrPeanutbutter said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2890919#Comment_2890919
This would work if the SBMM system worked properly, but it doesn’t. Because there are so few killers most of the time, the system will match a given survivor group with the next available killer regardless of the killer’s MMR
Then I think that that is the problem we should solve first and foremost, as opposed to demolishing the rest of the game to make things bearable under terrible matchmaking.
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@JeanCharpentier said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2890988#Comment_2890988
Then why did you highlight DS as if it is some kind of problem? If you're not tunnelling, it's only helping you out by taking up a perk slot without doing -anything- whatsoever!DS is a problem because it prevents the killer to use the only viable strategy at high MMR if he wants to use it.
Then why do you make this out to be some kind of 'Survivors OP' problem when your issue is with the matchmaking?Because the survivors are OP, plain and simple. You are serious to think that the game is balanced ? OMG ppl on this forum... 2022 we are still here discussing a fact proven for 5 years now...
DS is a problem because it prevents the killer to use the only viable strategy at high MMR if he wants to use it.
A) No it doesn't
B) That strategy is evidently objectively more powerful than other strategies and thus needs to have a counterweight to bring it in line. Unless you want to get all survivors buffed baseline to make them on par with a dirty playing tunneller, at which point every single killer will be forced to always play dirty.
Because the survivors are OP, plain and simple. You are serious to think that the game is balanced ? OMG ppl on this forum... 2022 we are still here discussing a fact proven for 5 years now...
Average kill rate is 50.2%. Two years ago, at higher ranks, it was 67%.
You use the word 'proven' when there is literally not a single shred of data to support your claim. Every single bit of non-anecdotal data we have, as trashy as that data is, is pointing away from the conclusion you bullrush into.
Yes, we're still going with this discussion, because the idea that 'survivors are OP' is little more than mob mentality. As is somewhat indicated by how you have yet to say anything more than 'if you disagree with me, it's because you're stupid and don't know the game'.
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@JeanCharpentier said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2890919#Comment_2890919
I would like to drop out but i cannot thanks to the system design. I don't even try hard and never tunnel, i just camp the hooked guy if all gens are done and still not everytime.
Fact is i loose, i drop out then i win without even trying and go up again... there is no in-between. I suspect that the MMR score is moving too much after a win or loss. Also, there is a soft cap so even if you are average MMR, if a high MMR SWF doesn't find a killer, the matchmaking will connect you with them...
I don't even try hard and never tunnel
Then why did you highlight DS as if it is some kind of problem? If you're not tunnelling, it's only helping you out by taking up a perk slot without doing -anything- whatsoever!
Fact is i loose, i drop out then i win without even trying and go up again... there is no in-between. I suspect that the MMR score is moving too much after a win or loss.
Then why do you make this out to be some kind of 'Survivors OP' problem when your issue is with the matchmaking?
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@JeanCharpentier said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2890900#Comment_2890900
It is impossible to win at high MMR without tunneling.
Telling a killer to play better proves you haven't understand how the game is working, what are the game mechanics because you cannot catch a survivor who knows how to properly loop without an anti-loop killer.
But you do not play killer, it is obvious and you are a survivor main seeing your biased opinion.
Good killer vs good swf = killer loose 90% of the time.
If you deny it, you know nothing about the game.
It is impossible to win at high MMR without tunneling.
Then don't. Drop out of that MMR. Let them escape and face more laid-back survivors. You are actively trying to go up against the best of the best and then you complain about them making things hard on you?
If you don't want to have to tunnel, don't tunnel. If you do want to tunnel, do tunnel. But don't complain when people pick the one perk that counters it and you just try to either run yourself head-first into it, or circumvent it with absolutely zero effort, leaving them with a blank perk slot.
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@JeanCharpentier said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2890865#Comment_2890865
- maps layout, number of pallets, gen speed force the killer to tunnel at high SBMM
- BT, DH and DS are 3 perks that can partly counter the tunnel
Firellius think it is normal to punish even more the killer for doing the only thing it can do to win. Okay, tell me, do you even play tier B and lower tier killers ?
But i love how unbiased you are to point the DS but not talking about the SWF, all other meta perks, the map offering... 😂
Maybe it's not the only thing the killer can do to win. You could also just play better. And even then, if you are that dead set on hard tunnelling, you can absolutely afford to eat a DS.
You're sitting here moping about the fact that you can't just point at a player and say 'You don't get to play the game now', once that player has dropped a perk slot on countering specifically that.
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If you still have a problem with DS in its current form, YOU are the problem.
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The problem is that the game treats both sides like trash, and their issues sustain one another.
And the devs don't even want to fix it, since they personally like the issues.
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Why is this so surprisingly common? Someone complaining how unfairly hard the game is on killer, then putting up a screenshot showing they got 3+ kills.
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@Chordyceps said:
Honestly I think the main change that needs to be made to Boons in general is removing the aura of boon totems. They already have particles that can be seen from a decent distance to tell you where you are. The auras turn boons into kinda intel perks too, essentially saying, "hey, come to this location for safety". I feel like you wouldnt have to worry about people running directly to CoH to heal up as often if they didn't know its exact location at all times.
I don't think that's necessarily a good idea, since that would widen the solo/swiffer divide again, which would make things harder to balance.
@Kurri said:
They could of just put a 100% cap on healing speed. Wow, suddenly stacking healing bonuses past 100% isn't a problem anymore.
I don't think that was ever truly the problem with CoH, and there's no need to brick funny heal meme builds over CoH.
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For killer, I think Lethal Pursuer. That early start can make all the difference.
For survivor: Fixated. One of the best stealth perks in the game.