Firellius
Firellius
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- Firellius
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It's unnatural. Take it away.
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There's some good points in there, but I also think he's missing some things.
1) The survivor's game is not solely divided between doing gens and getting chased. Sometimes there'll be totems to wipe out, there'll be people to pull off hooks and heal, and sometimes you'll have to stealth your way around a killer. Gameplay is more varied than gens and chases, at least for survivors.
2) While it's true that a killer that wants you dead will be able to kill you if he tunnels hard enough, the problem with tunnelling is that it is both boring/frustrating to go up against *and unbelievably powerful*. The same goes for camping. These methods are so popular because they are almost always the best/easiest way to win.
3) This also means that, while removing tunnelling isn't possible (Without fundamentally breaking something, as he says), it is possible to burden it with countermeasures to the point where it becomes less viable. That is the entire reason why DS was so popular, and why OTR is going to have to take over from it. The point of these perks isn't to make tunnelling impossible, but to make it less brutally efficient. To that end, I honestly think that DS should be made baseline.
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@Rizzo said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3090014#Comment_3090014
That report screen has never been updated, the game rules are what you should refer to when discussing what is reportable or not.
That report screen has never been updated
Imma be honest, this is pretty emblematic of BHVR.
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@Murgleïs said:
Tunneling is not a "problem" it’s a strat.
Tunnelling is just as much 'not a problem' as boil over + Eyrie offering + hook distance offering and just running to the unhookable spot every single time.
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@Mekochi said:
Note: This thread is not directed at killers who made meaningful arguments, you guys are nice to conversate with even if we don't always see eye to eye
Blah blah blah, we get it, DH was nerfed, not every survivor used the damn perk, stop using that as your one excuse. Because believe it or not, not every survivor and their dog used DH. Time and time again a see specific killers (you know who you are) saying survivors are only mad about DH, but they don't even read the post, they see the title and go "Yep, keep crying cuz your precious DH is gone, gg ez bozo!"
There are valid complaints from the survivor side and it mainly has to do with solo-queue, not even the actual nerfs survivors got. So please, thake the time to read their posts instead of jumping to conclusions, because guess what.
Everyone knows Dead Hard was nerfed. But guess what? Quite a few people didn't use the god forsaken perk.
Everyone knows Dead Hard was nerfed. But guess what? Quite a few people didn't use the god forsaken perk.
That's not even my biggest issue with the asinine 'SurVivOrS caN'T plAy wIthOut DEad HarD!'.
It's that the plethora of other buffs killers got are completely ignored just to make some whiny statement about Dead Hard.
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@WesCravenFan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3087498#Comment_3087498
The game is designed around TRYING not to. The game is designed around making an effort to avoid being killed, and you do that PRIMARILY with stealth and looping as a LAST RESORT.
But people got real cozy with saying to heck with stealth, I'm gonna go get into a chase right now! And now their precious E key got dismantled, their Ninja perk got dismantled, and they can't do it as well anymore, so clearly the game is "broken" because of that.
It's not designed around not being spotted. That's the point.
I replied to you calling 'you got spotted' a mistake, when the game is designed in a way that all but guarantees that someone is going to get spotted. You're laying that at the survivors' feet as if they screwed up somehow, when in reality, in most cases, there's nothing survivors can do to prevent being spotted if they actually want to have a chance at winning.
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@WesCravenFan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3087473#Comment_3087473
To what? The fact you think hiding from the killer is literally impossible? Because you hate doctor's blast? WEAK.
No, to the fact that the game isn't designed around 'never being spotted'.
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@WesCravenFan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3087165#Comment_3087165
I cannot believe there are nigh-30 Killers in this game and Herman is living in your head rent free.
Again, keep sticking your head in the sand.
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@WesCravenFan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3087160#Comment_3087160
Do you just face NOTHING but Doctor players? On maps with no lockers?
YOU say the game is hide and seek.
How do you play hide and seek against a Doctor who isn't hardcore throwing?
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@WesCravenFan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3087142#Comment_3087142
I have gone entire games and escaped without the killer laying eyes on me. This "impossible" claim is complete bullcrap.
Did you ever get four people all avoiding the killer, none of them being spotted once, against a Doctor or someone with aura reading perks?
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@WesCravenFan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3087081#Comment_3087081
There is that "impossible" word again....
Hyperbole much?
Do you have an actual argument or are you just gonna keep sticking your head in the sand?
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@WesCravenFan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3087049#Comment_3087049
So... you are comparing.... what? Doctor Shocks to.... glue?
I'm comparing something that makes it impossible to hide in a game that you allege is about hiding, to something that makes it impossible to get away in a game that's about getting away.
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3084458#Comment_3084458
Of course it would, its a hyperbolic projection you made trying to make me sound like a lunatic. All i'm trying to do is get you to understand a different mindset.
Yeah, and I was pointing out that it's not bias to not talk about BMing survivors when the subject of discussion is tunnelling and camping.
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@WesCravenFan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3087028#Comment_3087028
Then what are you blithering about?
You bring up Tag: "You're not supposed to be caught in Tag either, but if it doesn't happen, you don't really have a game"
To which I reply that Tag wouldn't work if the tagger can just glue people down.
And your response is to bring up freeze tag. Where you get frozen -AFTER- getting tagged. That part of the game doesn't interfere with the 'don't get caught' part, and you know it.
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@WesCravenFan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3085287#Comment_3085287
.... you literally just described Freeze Tag. Sooo uhh.... yes, it does.
Yeah, freeze tag allows them to glue them to the ground -after- tagging. Stop misrepresenting.
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@WesCravenFan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3084767#Comment_3084767
Okay? Just because you screw up at some point doesn't change the design intent. You are not supposed to be caught in a game of Tag either, but if it doesn't happen you don't really have a game.
Yeah, but Tag doesn't give some players the ability to glue others to the ground.
Because that would defeat the point of the game.
Much like having intel perks and powers defeats the point of hide and seek.
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@WeaverReaver42 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3084779#Comment_3084779
I do think it was overnerfed, but that doesn't change the fact that before it was unfair also. I feel like a 1-2 second endurance effect would be fine, and I think it's silly they undid that. However if I had to choose between 10 back to back survivor games in the new meta or going back to dealing with old dead hard- you'd catch me tryharding as survivor before you could say "game balance". If I were a survivor main, I'd feel about dead hard the way I feel about camping as a killer. It's unfair for the other players to have all their effort negated by one thing, and that doesn't sit well with me.
Oh, old DH was certainly unfair. I don't think a 2 second endurance would be fair either, since it'd fall into the same trap of old DH, where it offers too much distance. I just, in general, don't think there's much that can be done with the perk to prevent it from being a problem. Although a 1 second endurance, as opposed to .5 seconds, might actually be okay. Or else a happy middle at .75.
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@WeaverReaver42 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3084357#Comment_3084357
Suprisingly yes, I have found some people who use it. I don't know why, but there will be the occasional person who uses it. Although this wasn't what that was about, I'm talking about people who complain about deadhard on the forums where people also say that killers implying that the only reason why survivors are upset is because deadhard is nerfed (which is rude, don't get me wrong, but isn't out of nowhere like some people are saying).
Every perk should be at least usable. If you are looking at someone using Dead Hard and you think to yourself "Why would you pick that perk up?", you apparently think that it is overnerfed.
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@WesCravenFan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3084712#Comment_3084712
The same way you do any other Killer. Victor grunts like a little snot, and the Doctor is really only going to find you with one power on a very long cooldown that you can hear the charge up for.
Yes. But he IS going to find you. And a strategically positioned Victor will ping you too.
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@TrustyJoat said:
Jesus, I love this update; it's really pulled back the curtain and shows just how many Survivors have no idea how to do basic things like Loop, Kite, etc. and were just relying on second chance perks to bully Killers.
"I don't want to play matches where effectively the game is over for us in the first couple of minutes because we have little chance of coming back from a mistake due to [STUPID REASON]"
Now put yourself in the Killers shoes before the patch. Do you think people wanted to play matches that were 'over in the first couple of minutes" because the SWF has perfect comms and is plowing 3 gens in the first 2 minutes of the match before the killer can even get a hook?
Now that the shoe is on the other foot, you're going to uninstall and come to the DBD forums to complain about a game you apparently aren't playing anymore. 😂
For anyone who needs a TLDR for the OP: ""Killers are having too much fun. I'm taking my ball and going home."
Mm, yes, because second chance perks were the only thing that got changed. It's definitive proof that UB, DS, BT and DH were the sole reason survivors were able to beat you.
Thankfully, UB got massively nerfed, BT got massively nerfed, DS didn't get replaced by a more egregious perk.
And of course, there's no other changes muddying the data. Killers didn't get increased action speeds, baseline gen regression, faster bloodlust stacking, shorter attack cooldowns. Survivors didn't get their on-hit speed boost reduced. None of that.
It couldn't possibly be that survivors start a match off in perfect fighting condition and things then slow down dramatically after first down. It's not at all an option that you just didn't manage to capitalise on anything you accomplish to take the momentum out of the survivors' sails.
It's never your fault. You are the killer. You are the power role. Which means you are infallible! You are the best player in every trial! Survivors winning is purely a product of an unbalanced game that heavily favours survivors, and you losing couldn't possibly be because -you- didn't play well enough. It couldn't be because -you- made mistakes.
It's those gosh darn second chance perks, I tell you hwat.
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@Tostapane said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3082174#Comment_3082174
be serious or don't wrote anything at all...
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3082201#Comment_3082201
technically it is because that game wasn't thinked with SWF in mind... but as i said before it's not that you can't play with your friends anymore, it will be limited only to custom matches... i don't get why people become so upset when you mention that regular matches shouldn't have that feature... ah yes, because usually they'll abuse it in one way or another probably...
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3082213#Comment_3082213
it won't stop cause it's one of the best strategies that a killer can do in certain situations... i doubt that camping and tunneling would be so popular if it would be counterproductive for the killer, the devs should gave incentives to leave the hook and not to camp, instead they erased the few things that serve that purpose (bbq bonus bp erased, pain resonance informations lost and pop reduced to a meme perk)
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3084319#Comment_3084319
lmao, if you say so... guess you are here to watch every match that i did then... fine then, i'll tell you a little anedocte: in the past (1 year ago) i tried to do an experiment, i did 2 matches aganist the same team of survivor, in the same map and with the same killer and addons... the difference between those 2 matches were the playstyle, the 1st one i didn't camped or tunneled, yet my chases were quickly, but that wasn't enough anyway to keep their pace (2 survivors were always on gens if you consider that one of them was always on the hook and the other one being chased/rescuing the hooked survivor)... the match ended with a 0/4. the 2nd i tunneled from the start and guess what? i won. now you can say that tunneling and camping are boring and unfunny to go aganist, i won't deny that and i will probably agree with you, but don't a hypocrite and say that it won't require skill or that will make you a worse killer because this is simply false (after all the killer's goal is to kill and this is the quickest way to achieve your goal, not to mention that certain maps will literally force you to play mean despite you won't do it for the simple fact that they are too much safe or you have a killer without a valid antiloop power). only survivor main will tell you this because they want force you to play by their rules
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3084452#Comment_3084452
when someone will go full white knight and defend something that even him/her will probably know that's broken for various reasons this is what happen. denying that SWF give benefits when EVEN the devs aknowledge that is simply being too much biased
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3084502#Comment_3084502
i strongly disagree, this game would be more easier to balance (i'm not saying that would be easy since it's almost impossible to balance an asymmetrical game, but easier than now for sure) if SWF wouldn't be available in normal matches.
so for you the previous dead hard wasn't a problem (i would say even the new one since the infamous auto dead hard is still present) despite everyone complained about that perk, borrowed time being exploited for tanking a hit that was deserved to someone else wasn't (isn't) a problem, completely recover from the dying state when you did a bad play alongside with your team isn't a problem, the automatic healing and the speed boost that you get once the gens are done isn't a problem, the fact that you can blind the killer when he caught someone into a locker isn't a problem, people that exploit boil over with purple toolboxes (just for precaution) with the hook offerings alongside maps like rpd or badham isn't a problem... yep definetely not a problem winning 100th times in order to hooking someone/winning a match as killer (add that all this stuff it's even more awful when you are aganist a sweaty SWF and you'll get the picture of why i'm aganist that feature)
i strongly disagree, this game would be more easier to balance (i'm not saying that would be easy since it's almost impossible to balance an asymmetrical game, but easier than now for sure) if SWF wouldn't be available in normal matches.
You mentioned in your opening post:
whenever i look at the forum i see always the same things: survivors who complain about killers being buffed/tunneling/camping/etc etc and killers complain about survivors who genrush/abuse 2nd chances perks/bully squads with flashlights/etc etc. Both problems have something in common: swf.
I point out that that is incorrect. Tunnelling and camping have NOTHING to do with swiffers. Genrush and second chance perks have NOTHING to do with swiffers. The link with killer buffs is strenuous. The only thing that's properly a swiffer problem is bully squads.
And then we get to second chance perks:
so for you the previous dead hard wasn't a problem
Which is already a misreading of my post, since I mention, specifically:
The only ones that can be argued about are the bodyblocking potential of BT/OTR and Dead Hard
I also don't see the relevance in talking about old Dead Hard because it's no longer in the game, and as incompetent as BHVR may seem in their balance decisions, I am pretty confident they are not stupid enough to put it back in.
borrowed time being exploited for tanking a hit that was deserved to someone else wasn't (isn't) a problem
Again, I specifically mention bodyblocking potential of BT/OTR as being arguable problems. And I, myself, have in fact argued for them being problems in the past. Especially OTR, which I believe is less healthy for the game than DS was.
completely recover from the dying state when you did a bad play alongside with your team isn't a problem
The killer has to leave you alone for an extended period of time to enable this perk to trigger once and never again, and it still takes that survivor out of commission for an equally long time. UB is not a problem. Exponential has too many hooks and eyes to be a problem. The only one you could try to argue for is Soul Guard, but that requires an active hex to work.
the automatic healing and the speed boost that you get once the gens are done isn't a problem
Adrenaline fires once, once all gens are done. How is that a swiffer problem, exactly?
the fact that you can blind the killer when he caught someone into a locker isn't a problem
Not a perk, let alone a second chance perk.
people that exploit boil over with purple toolboxes, with the hook offerings alongside maps like rpd or badham isn't a problem...
None of this is second chance perks.
yep definetely not a problem winning 100th times in order to hooking someone/winning a match as killer (add that all this stuff it's even more awful when you are aganist a sweaty SWF and you'll get the picture of why i'm aganist that feature)
You have argued the completely wrong thing here. I never argued in favour of bully tactics. You are replying here to something I said about second chance perks and you completely switched tracks into an all out rant about bully tactics and survivors just having perks in general.
I get that you're frustrated, but you're not arguing properly. You can't counter 'second chance perks aren't a problem' with 'Flashlight saves are a problem'. That doesn't suddenly make second chance perks a problem.
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@WesCravenFan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3084458#Comment_3084458
Developer's last comment about it being a game of hide and seek is less than one year old.
Again, how're you hiding against Victor or the Doctor?
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@Tostapane said:
... and people still think that SWF isn't the main issue of the game. whenever i look at the forum i see always the same things: survivors who complain about killers being buffed/tunneling/camping/etc etc and killers complain about survivors who genrush/abuse 2nd chances perks/bully squads with flashlights/etc etc. Both problems have something in common: swf. you are probably wondering how... well, killers wouldn't probably feel the need to play in certain (unfunny) way if swf wouldn't exist (mainly due to the HUGE amount of toxicity and disadvantages that they must endure when aganist those kind of teams) and survivors would have probably be buffed accordingly since swf wouldn't screw up the statistics... imo SWF shouldn't be in the game (or to be more precise... it should be available ONLY in custom matches)
The only thing that's a swiffer problem there is bully squads, and -maybe- killer buffs. Everything else has nothing to do with swiffer teams.
@Tostapane said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3081059#Comment_3081059
you are missing the point... 2nd chances perks COULD be fine IF survivors aren't in a swf imo, but we aren't talking about 2nd chances perks/gen defense perks, we are talking about WHY those things are abused literally in most games
Second chance perks aren't a problem, period, because the game is designed to give survivors THREE chances. You aren't supposed to be able to kill a survivor in one down. None of the associated perks do ANYTHING if the killer doesn't hardcore faceplant into it. The only ones that can be argued about are the bodyblocking potential of BT/OTR and Dead Hard, but the latter has already been nerfed down to a point where it might need to be re-evaluated as a problem.
Especially the hate against DS is a clear indicator some killers just want a one-down, extremely easy game.
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@WesCravenFan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3081644#Comment_3081644
The game IS designed around hide and seek. The developers have said so.
And the only time it is not your vault for being spotted is if the killer is Undetectable. The terror radius exists for a reason. If you are on a gen, and you hear the terror radius getting louder, and you don't leave or hide, that is on you.
It originally was, but emergent gameplay tossed that out of the window. How are you going to hide against a Doctor, or Victor? The game has very clearly moved on from that style.
All right, so we've already established that being spotted isn't necessarily the survivor's fault, but how are you going to move away from that gen fast enough without running and leaving a glowing red trail pointing out your location?
@Ryuhi said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3081168#Comment_3081168
you went immediately to bully squads, I didn't. Solos can and do also make killer miserable just as well, its often the first defense BMing players give that they're "not even swf." Also its not "a revenge mentality" in most cases, but a defensive one: A lot of people who play killer less often will do it to reduce the liklihood of having to deal with 4 people refusing to leave and bming in the exit gate. Can't be a sore winner if you don't win.
You said 'sweaty', not 'BMing'. And what do you propose is done about BMing survivors? Take away the ability to crouch? Or just laser focus on that last line of yours and make sure no survivors (including the perfectly fair ones) can ever win, so you don't have to deal with someone squatting at the exit gate?
Because I can tell you that that would be -really- bad for the game.
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Did -any- bully tactic actually get touched on this patch?
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@Jago said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3082437#Comment_3082437
Bt + haste = go to a safe spot.
Oh, so now we need another perk to scaffold it into something resembling function. This is almost as bad as Power Struggle now!
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@Jago said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3082397#Comment_3082397
Yes and ? Thats the purpose of this perk. Anti tunnel. If you re not tunneled you re fine.
And now, if you are tunnelled, this perk won't do jack for you.
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@Jago said:
It's a deadzone, so it's a down.
New DS requires strategy and to think where to go down / hide in a locker to avoid... What you just showed.
It also requires you to get downed and picked up within 60 seconds of being unhooked, without first having done anything to help your team, and before EGC.
Should we add another two or three conditions? Why don't we make it require two safe unhooks and a gen before it can work, or maybe it only works on a full moon on a sunday night in november!
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@CluelessWanderer said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3081681#Comment_3081681
Botany was a buff for SWF (surprise surprise) and a nerf for Solo Q. I used to bring BK all the time. Now it's pointless because of the reduced item efficiency. If I pull a brown med kit from a chest I can't heal myself if I bring BK. It was a perfectly balanced perk before, but it got BHVR'd.
On topic, old Decisive was way better than OTR imo. I actually haven't seen many survivors bring in OTR, many (including myself) opting for BT. One thing I haven't read anywhere- does Borrowed Time also deactivate at end game now? Seems like they're discouraging all end game saves. I find in Solo Q, the rare match the Exit gates are powered, no one tries to save a hooked survivor anymore and just run out the door.
Yeah, I think DS is way healthier for the game than OTR, for both sides of the fence. But then it got absolutely gutted.
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@Nathan13 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3076411#Comment_3076411
the only mistake was the ds stun nerf.
I'd say the self-care nerf and the Botany buff were also solid oopsies.
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@WesCravenFan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3081168#Comment_3081168
"Out of position" is a term the community has had for over 5 years. This is not new.
And yes, you are supposed to go down in chase. You are not supposed to get seen in the first place. There are perks to help you find Survivors, but no perk is perfect and you only get four slots. For all the whining about "gen regression" perks you are now worried about location perks? How many perk slots do you think killers get?
Camping and tunnelling are the Killer doing their job to kill you. You are not ENTITLED to an unhook.
Yes, out of position is a legitimate term, but you're tossing it into a hypothetical where it has no business being.
You are not supposed to get seen in the first place. There are perks to help you find Survivors, but no perk is perfect and you only get four slots. For all the whining about "gen regression" perks you are now worried about location perks? How many perk slots do you think killers get?
Aside from dodging the whole 'survivors have to be on gens' argument, you're also dodging the actual meat of the argument: It isn't always the survivor's fault they're spotted. And you can't deflect with 'well, killers won't run them anyway', because that is patently untrue. BBQ & Chili had a pretty solid pick-rate before its nerf, and there'll be other perks that offer intel too.
If the game were built around hide-and-seek, killers wouldn't have ANY intel perks. So this idea that a survivor getting spotted is their 'mistake' is nonsense in almost any situation. Sure, there'll be cases where a survivor may get caught because they're careless, but if a survivor wants to get objectives done, they are going to have to risk being spotted. And if a killer brings the right load-out (Or the right killer, IE Hag or Doctor) there's no way to avoid it.
Camping and tunnelling are the Killer doing their job to kill you. You are not ENTITLED to an unhook.
Can you stick to a single argument, please? First you're arguing about survivors getting hooked at all, and then when that flops, you retreat to 'you're not entitled to an unhook'.
Which is fine, in and of itself.
But it does mean gens need to be made way, WAY quicker to compensate for survivors having only one hookstate. Pick your poison.
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@WesCravenFan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3066064#Comment_3066064
Interactions are SUPPOSED to be a lost cause. You are SUPPOSED to go down. Chases are meant to be delayment of the inevitable. This whole "I wanna be chased!" thing comes to a grinding halt when it smashes into the reality wall of the Killer shoving you on a hook.
If you are getting downed in the first minute, congratulations. You got a chase and lost. Here are the consequences of your actions. You manged to get seen (mistake), get caught out of position (mistake again), lose the first chase (mistake yet again), get hit and then get hit a second time to get downed (mistake YET AGAIN!)....
.... and now you are sitting on the hook crying foul?
Are you kidding me?
You consider getting seen a mistake? You do realise that there's a small trove of killer perks that make it impossible to avoid getting found, right? And you know that, if the survivors want to have any chance of finishing their objective, they have to risk being seen?
Then you pull some 'out of position' thing out of god knows where, once again disregarding the fact that survivors are forced to move into certain locations by merit of the objectives, and then you somehow split 'losing the chase' into two separate items. And you mark 'got downed' as a mistake despite the previous paragraph of your own post declaring, loudly: "You are SUPPOSED to go down!". So how is that the survivor's mistake!?
And that is on top of a gross misrepresentation of the actual issue. The problem isn't that once a killer starts chasing you, it's virtually impossible to lose them, the problem is that survivor gameplay is supposed to be more than constantly getting chased down and nothing else (Tunnelling), or only getting one single chase and 2 minutes of incapacitation (Camping, slugging).
Literally no one complains about getting hooked. People complain about the game mechanism of unhooking getting sidelined by campers.
@Ryuhi said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3066085#Comment_3066085
I'm sorry but the bias is palpable. While you could easily argue sweaty killers make playing survivor (especially solo) much less fun and interactive, what do you have to say about sweaty survivors making killer just as miserable? What if half the time a killer is tunnelling or camping its preemptively avoiding getting steamrolled? Its very easy to require a higher onus of skill from your opponent when making balance considerations, but you have to apply the same to your own side as well.
Killers can't really escape from bad matches, while survivors are practically forced to. Many killers would rather remove the chances of a bad match ASAP than risk having to endure it. Camping and tunnelling will always exist (even if nerfed into the ground,) but in many cases its seen as a defense mechanism vs absolutely busted matches they've experienced, and the mental fatigue/insults/etc that often come with those.
Making other playstyles more viable is the best way to reduce camping and tunnelling. full stop.
what do you have to say about sweaty survivors making killer just as miserable?
I am absolutely in favour of nerfing bully squad tactics to the ground. In-built flashlight immunity for X seconds after being blinded for example. BNP removal. Removing the ability to deny pick-ups by healing.
But bully squads require a ton of skill and intensive coordination from multiple people to pull off, whereas camping just requires the killer to play for a bit and then AFK. Which do you think is going to be more common?
I also don't think -anyone- on the forums has ever argued in favour of bully squads and their tactics. But the pushback against any criticism on tunnelling and camping is pretty hefty. There's always, -always- going to be someone popping up going 'Well killers don't have to make the game fun!' when I can't think of a single time a complaint about bully squads was ever dismissed like that.
Everyone hates bully squads. But there's a lot of people stuck in a sort of revenge mentality that'll jump high and low to justify camping, tunnelling and slugging.
That's why no one bothers to point out how annoying bully squads are. We know. Everyone knows. There's no discussion to be had. It's just going to be 'I hate bully squads', 'I agree'. There's no point.
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How about 3 second DS baseline, and DS itself adds 2 seconds?
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3077815#Comment_3077815
Where do they find you guys? Pre-nerf DS was a bad perk?
The killer has to actively play into it -really hard-. It is, far and away, the single most counterplayable perk. It takes zero effort to shut down.
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@Murgleïs said:
DS ain’t gone. It’s still a decent perk.
It was a bad perk already, aside from the EGC usage. Now that has been removed, and it got an additional nerf on top to ensure you really don't want to ever pick it up. It now not only requires extensive cooperation from the killer to function, but when it does function, it's way, way worse than it used to be.
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@scenekiller said:
One thing I'll never understand: why, when killers complained, was "get good" "learn to play without crutch perks", "training wheels" etc. not valid then, but it is now that solo survivors are complaining?
The truth is, there are plenty of bad solo survivors. But there are also plenty of good solo survivors who are at the mercy of the bad ones. It isn't an issue of "lol your crutch is gone, get good" - some perks absolutely WERE necessary for GOOD solo survivors to offset the downside of terrible teammates.
RNG is such that it doesn't matter how good you are, and "get good" is a disingenuous, borderline condescending retort with absolutely no nuance or thought behind it other than pettiness for the (very real) issues killers previously had to deal with.
The forums have always had a tendency to disregard the killer's effort input. If a survivor wins, the game's unbalanced. If a killer wins, the survivors just need to git gud.
The game's survivor sided because tournaments.
Otz winning decisively with every killer, without add-ons or perks and while going AFK the first thirty seconds is met with "well Otz is one of the best killer players so he doesn't count"
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As much fun as Autodidact is, it doesn't play well with a ton of other perks and elements, and it is generally more of a killer perk than a survivor perk.
It is very fun though. As is For The People!
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@KayTwoAyy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3073084#Comment_3073084
There is nothing I can do about it, which is why I advocate for a more challenging game (for survivors). Making the survivor role more challenging is the only way that players will learn to improve.
And what is the goal of this improvement?
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@Devilishly_Rowdy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3071774#Comment_3071774
Yeah and that's why people were lining up to play killer right? And kill rates were low according to devs? Dead hard was probably fine too, just bait it out.
Player engagement is more than just balance, you know? It's also about how fun something is to play. And killer, by virtue of its fundamental design, is not very fun to play. You're just always feeling like you're behind, unless you're grotesquely stomping the survivors, because you have no downtime. Survivors can take a breather when they're working on a gen or totem, or when they're healing up somewhere, while they have to play stealthy to get safe unhooks, and have to loop when the killer's on them.
Killer gameplay is flat and stressful. And the unfortunate impact this has on discussions about balance is that killers will feel short-changed even when the game is balanced. Prior to the release of CoH, for example, there were lots of complaints about the game being brutally survivor-sided, despite the average kill-rate at red rank being, IIRC, 64%, indicating that killers were at an advantage.
And keep in mind: Kill rates weren't low, they were 'lower than we'd like'. Which, keeping the above in mind, doesn't necessarily translate to an actual, sub-50% kill rate. Last details we had still showed an over 50% killrate, after all.
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@Nathan13 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3061660#Comment_3061660
no it's not, this is the update that's gonna bring a lot more perk and killer variety. This is the update that's gonna save DBD you can count on that.
Maybe it's going to slightly up killer variety, but it won't do anything for survivors. They'll still be bringing an anti-camp, anti-tunnel and anti-slug perk since those problems weren't addressed at all, and camping even got buffed. That leaves just one open slot which is going to be CoH or one of the exhaustion perks.
This won't fix anything for killers either, since the core gameplay for killers is just flat-out terrible and trying to solve it via balancing wouldn't fix it until survivors have a 0% chance to escape. This patch might increase the winrate for killers, but it's not going to make playing killer more enjoyable or less stressful.
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The hitbox doesn't contort, it gets left behind. When a survivor starts healing their ally, they take a step forward and bend over, but their hitbox stays upright, where they were when they started it.
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@TheLastHook said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3066524#Comment_3066524
The devs set the rules of the gameIn code. Do you see voice comms in the base game? no. You use Discord.
SWF using voice comms is cheating, SWF is just unfair but not totally broken, can be tolerated. Voice comms is cheating.
People already tune nvidia settings, also "stretched resolution" was a thing too. Clearly nothing to do with "The Rules of The Game".
DBD's spaghetti code being tasked with handling VoIP is basically asking for the servers to commit sudoku. Voice comms are an entirely different beast in regards to both netcode and moderation, because let me tell you: no one wants voice comms with a community as wildly toxic as DBD's.
Nah, it's much easier to just set up a discord and refer players to that, if they want to use voice comms. And I think they've already done that.
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Perk band-aiding, especially for survivors.
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No one should be able to use map offerings. It's mostly used for bully tactics.
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@GamerEzra said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3061734#Comment_3061734
That's your opinion. Camping and tunneling are legit strategies, like it or not. Killers don't have to play by the survivors rules. If survivors can gen rush, why can't killers secure their kills?
Unfortunately, what you're advocating for is a game state where survivors always have to gen rush, and killers should always tunnel/camp.
That way, both sides are getting shafted.
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DS will turn into OTR, that'll be the only change.
Survivor meta mostly consisted of perks that weren't strong, they were just the only option against three extremely powerful killer strategies that disable survivor play. None of the underlying issues have been addressed, so OTR, BT, UB, those'll still be extremely prevalent. Only Dead Hard is lined up to be swapped.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
A survivor with DS can attempt to bodyblock the killer, but if they get smacked down but not picked up, they'll be left slugged out.
Survivors can use unbreakable to pick themselves up to avoid penalty of being slugged when using decisive strike offensively.
That way, OTR becomes an alternative to DS, but one that is more reliant on skill, and one that cannot be used offensively in any way.
the problem is that it doesn't work if the killer has clear line of sight on the survivor. Those bonus only help when the killer has lost sight of the survivor and the survivor is not in a chase.
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If bodyblocking off the record becomes a problem, The solution would be to grant survivors intangible such that the killer can walk through the survivor similar to how certain killers powers such as Myer's stalking allow the survivor to walk through the killer. There is no evidence currently to suggest that this is a problem, as such there is no reason to fix it.
Survivors can use unbreakable to pick themselves up to avoid penalty of being slugged when using decisive strike offensively.
That's not an issue though, since that expends another perk, which is single-use at that, plus it still wastes a lot of time for the survivor to be able to get themselves up.
the problem is that it doesn't work if the killer has clear line of sight on the survivor. Those bonus only help when the killer has lost sight of the survivor and the survivor is not in a chase.
It would work in a chase, and could work under many different circumstances. It would require the killer to lose line of sight, certainly, but that's why it could be considered a more high risk, high reward kind of anti-tunnel perk.
The solution would be to grant survivors intangible such that the killer can walk through the survivor similar to how certain killers powers such as Myer's stalking allow the survivor to walk through the killer.
At that point, I'd still rather go back to DS being the only anti-tunnel perk, since it won't risk interacting poorly with other endurance perks.
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@itsHammyyy said:
besides the DS and bloodlust changes, this update really isn't that bad for survivors. not *nearly* as bad as people are making it out to be.
i find the dead hard outcry especially funny because sprint burst and overcome still exist. they are just as strong (arguably stronger) as current DH. neither of those perks were touched during the update and survivors can just move on to using them.
I think the problem for survivors is that nothing really changed. DS is gone, but OTR came in its place. BT is still there. UB is still there. Those will still be borderline mandatory picks. Only real upset is DH being reined in, which'll probably see it replaced with Lithe or Sprint-burst.
Other than that, and the absolutely WILD buff to Botany Knowledge, there's a lot of flopping about with sub-par perks that doesn't really make any of them particularly usable.
So we go from a meta of one anti-camp, one anti-tunnel, one anti-slug and exhaust to anti-camp, anti-tunnel, anti-slug and exhaust. Nothing really changes.
DS, after the EGC change, honestly should probably just have been baselined. Maybe even giving the killer an indicator, so they know they aren't supposed to touch a specific survivor. It's the most counterplayable perk and probably the best tailored one to dealing with that specific issue.
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DS should trigger off both unhooks, regain its five second stun, the skillcheck should be made extremely easy, and then OTR's rework should be scrapped.
OTR is less healthy as an anti-tunnel design than DS. For survivors, because the innate BT can now allow killers to disable OTR (supposed to be anti-tunnel) by tunnelling hard enough. For killers, because OTR is much more effective when used offensively to bodyblock. You bodyblock with DS, you get slugged. You bodyblock with OTR, you can just run off.
It's literally worse for everyone, which is an achievement in and of itself.
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I don't understand why Botany Knowledge was touched on in the first place. It was honestly one of those perks that seemed perfectly fine, not OP nor UP. A perfectly serviceable, general perk.
But then it suddenly needed a really weighty buff for some reason?