Firellius
Firellius
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- Firellius
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@adderalladmirals said:
It's the second way, the 35% is only for the missing part, not the entire part
Oh wow, so it's even worse than it already sounded.
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
If it's meta we may finally see a bandaid to camping be effective
Inb4 "the pickrate for reassurance is too high for our liking, so we're adjusting it a little bit. It now requires two safe unhooks to use."
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@ExcelSword said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3124305#Comment_3124305
You are imagining Tunnelling and Camping as its current state in the game. In this hypothetical scenario it might be actually become impossible to camp hooks and tunnel off hooks. Again, if 12 hooking become the best way to win, then there is nothing stopping the devs from going nuclear on camping and tunnelling.
12-hooking being the best strategy is always going to be skill-dependent. Since last patch, killers got a massive collection of buffs and the camping/tunnelling issue didn't budge, I'm not keen on negotiating more killer buffs until people are ready to let go of camping/tunnelling.
So let's reverse it. First go nuclear on camping/tunnelling, and 12-hooking becomes the most reliable way to win.
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I feel like this is a PTB problem, I recall a similar complaint coming up the last few PTBs.
Might be compressed matchmaking allowing these bully squads to more easily find inexperienced killers to bully.
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Because it would counter camping.
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@kidcowboy111 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3029454#Comment_3029454
it does though. literally every game now goes by like 300x faster. i cant play a single game without seeing pt and toolboxes
But that isn't PT's problem, since that doesn't increase gen speeds.
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@Nathan13 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3123784#Comment_3123784
It’s not that we want camping to be powerful, it’s hard to fix camping without making it so OP for survivors. Killers should camp if they need a kill like if it’s at endgame.
Yeah, but any discussion about it will be met with 'just learn to play', 'anti-camp was tried once, six years ago, therefor it can never work', or dead silence.
Any brainstorming about a solution gets shut down. So I'm not really buying the idea that forum killers don't want camping to stay powerful.
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They should just be nerfed to a point where they almost guarantee a solid loss. Camping should not get you anything more than a 1K, and tunnelling should be less efficient than spreading hooks.
Not gonna happen though. Forum killers want these tactics to stay powerful.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3122725#Comment_3122725
So I guess I drop chase to go for someone else? Even when they're right next to the hook?
No, you just finish the chase. Unless you've been swinging like a madman, you're at bloodlust 3 and you don't need to even play intelligently anymore.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3122711#Comment_3122711
"And if you are getting looped close to a hooked survivor for ages, that's a you problem."
https://sayingimages.com/wp-content/uploads/jackie-chan-wait-what-meme.jpg
Survivors literally dictate the path of a chase dude. I can't chase someone somewhere they're not already going.
For ages. For. Ages.
It's the duration that's the problem, not the location. If they're using one or two cells for over a minute, YOU are doing something wrong as killer.
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@Tactrix said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3121645#Comment_3121645
I'm ok with it being an RNG issue, with RNG you're a hit and miss, and that's fine, because in a hit and miss its 50/50. However right now there's a 100% chance that if a killer wants to tunnel and camp they can and will. I'd rather have the 50/50.
Oh, I'm not concerned about the impact on camping killers. I'm concerned about the impact on non-camping killers! I don't want them to get nerfed by the countermeasures.
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@Tactrix said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3120716#Comment_3120716
I get what you're saying, and you're right it will take some time off the pressure end, but a time reduction is a small price to pay for no camping and tunneling. And if worst comes to worst and they really feel it's a HUGE time difference they can up the gen time again. But honestly I don't think it will be enough to offset it.
I played against a nurse today that made it abundantly clear how bad this game became. Check this out she was running COULROPHOBIA and THANTOPHOBIA, and this was at the meat plant. So imagine this, at no point in time are you actually far enough out of range of her for her abilities not to be a problem. Now with SELF-CARE and BOTANY, it still takes over a minute to heal with those 2 killer perks on. SELF-CARE is only 35% speed now but with BOTANY its 85% now which is not bad, but the true benefit is the 50% increased speed to your teammates, however with just those 2 perks the healing was reduced so heavily that it was almost impossible to heal them up. And then she also had DISTRESSING and SLOPPY BUTCHER on.
So picture this. She hits you, now the entire team is slowed on gens and healing. And you're bleeding, but now when people go to heal you, they get a 50% faster skill check, that they miss a good deal of the time. When they miss it because of SLOPPY BUTCHER you bleed and lose more healing. And because of DISTRESSING combined with COULROPHOBIA you are always in her terror radius, so you get people who bleed out none stop, and the healing is so slow via getting healed by another person that it's not even worth doing, it would be faster to do a gen.
I get what you're saying, and you're right it will take some time off the pressure end, but a time reduction is a small price to pay for no camping and tunneling. And if worst comes to worst and they really feel it's a HUGE time difference they can up the gen time again. But honestly I don't think it will be enough to offset it.
The problem is that you're dealing with huge swings in scenarios. If the survivor is teleported to some corner of the map where no other survivor is currently present, that is a massive benefit to the killer. If the survivor is teleported to another survivor, that's a massive benefit to the survivors. The value of a hook becomes an RNG problem, and that can't be dealt with outside of RNG amelioration, but at that point you'd have to introduce a logic to it that can be exploited.
@Bran said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3120716#Comment_3120716
Desperation: basekit DS. Not a big fan of it
OTF: not a fan of this perk anyways.
Disrupted: disabling killer powers? I don't think I need to explain why I wouldn't agree with that point.
Frustration: slowing the hook if a killers power is close to the hook and survs are doing gens? Also, don't need to say much, but no. That's eliminates some killers way of actually getting pressure.
Desperation: basekit DS. Not a big fan of it
But why not? By the end of its lifespan, DS was almost perfectly tailored to the purpose of being an anti-tunnel perk. The only thing getting in the way of it truly being a fair anti-tunnel effect was the EGC activation, but that's already been trimmed out. At that point, anyone that complains about DS is someone that hardcore played into the perk's one and only function and has no one but themselves to blame.
Disrupted: disabling killer powers? I don't think I need to explain why I wouldn't agree with that point.
I think you do need to explain. Again, this is tied to DS, a perk that ONLY activates under a very specific circumstance that requires a LOT of killer input. If this perk bothers you, just don't hit spacebar on someone that was unhooked in the last minute.
Besides, the only one that Disruption would really cripple is Nurse. All the others just turn into M1s, no different from a Trapper who hasn't set anything up.
Frustration: slowing the hook if a killers power is close to the hook and survs are doing gens? Also, don't need to say much, but no. That's eliminates some killers way of actually getting pressure.
You're not getting pressure if the survs are ignoring the hooked target anyway. Just don't facecamp, and don't proxy camp. Which is the point of this suggestion.
@Araphex said:
Can we get some anti-bully squad stuff for killer then too? Or you all can just learn to counter tunneling and camping since there are tutorials and streamers out there who have literally shared tactics to counter these things.
Can we get some anti-bully squad stuff for killer then too?
Absolutely fine with anti-bully squad measures being implemented too. Innate lightborn for X seconds after being blinded for example, to get rid of flashlight stacking.
Or you all can just learn to counter tunneling and camping since there are tutorials and streamers out there who have literally shared tactics to counter these things.
Only thing you linked that is relevant to this is Scott's video, and his video's just for tips about builds that may be able to help you if you can get an unhook. That's a really flimsy counter tactic against a strategy that is specifically intended to deny unhooks.
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@Tactrix said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3119843#Comment_3119843
I play as killer half the time and talked to a lot of killers who were tier 1 they absolutely play around DS. Now as far as CoA is concerned you're not building up healthy pressure when you sit on a hook as a killer. You're camping, like there is no other word for it. That's what's you're doing if you sit on a hook as a killer. And that is exactly what CoA is designed to prevent, see you don't need that kind of pressure buildup, because by caging someone you're forcing the other survivors to get off a gen and go get them. But let's play those 2 scenarios out to their natural conclusion shall we?
Scenario #1: Survivors go for the unhook, if the killer sees them he gives chase, they get the survivor out of the cage, he retains his 5 second BT(which is the only BT still in the game at that point) and the killer either chases the survivor down who's hurt wasting some more time(but mildly tunneling) or he chases the unhooker and tries to go for the down. Now that is a very unlikely scenario as the way CoA works it doesn't just disappear across the map from everyone it typically lands near other survivors, so it's FAR more likely that they will get a straight unhook without ever being seen. And during this time the gens are either being done by the other 2 survivors, or more likely most will go for the unhook and only 1 is being done.
Scenario #2: Survivors ignore the caged and stay on gens, and the killer manages to find the cage. In that scenario you might say "well he's camping", but see he isn't. Camping only applies when you were NOT given the opportunity to unhook in the first place. And if you were, and you ignore it, YOU are the reason why the killer can camp, therefore you cannot blame him for camping if you ignored the survivor in the cage.
In either scenario gen pressure can stay on or be taken off just like it works right now based on your group. It wouldn't take away any pressure from the killer, because once he hooked someone he would immediately either start going gen to gen, or run across the map looking for the cages survivor, in either scenario it still plays out very similar to the game right now.
I don't think you get what I'm talking about.
Current scenario, if the killer gets a hook, a survivor needs to go in for the rescue. Let's assume this survivor didn't stalk the killer and is working on a gen that is currently safe to pressure. They need to get off that gen, carefully approach the hook, get the unhook, and then make their way to a gen to resume working. That's going to cost, what, 20-30 seconds at best to get the unhook, and another 5-10 seconds to get back to a gen?
Now imagine the killer gets a hook, and the survivor is teleported to a hook next to a safe gen that is being worked on. That survivor now has to let go for only 5 seconds to get the unhook, and is then back on the gen in another 5 seconds.
Yes, it's a worst case scenario, but you have to account for those when you play with randomised mechanisms. A killer could get screwed over that badly, losing effectively 30 seconds of a gen -not- being worked on, on a whim.
@Bran said:
I don't even need a drawn out explanation to say "no."
You don't, but you also don't need to say anything if you're not going to contribute anything meaningful. You could've just scrolled on by if you're not interested in looking for a camping/tunnelling solution.
In fact, why'd you even click on this topic?
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@Tactrix said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3118479#Comment_3118479
You made an incorrect assumption there, it was a big problem. And if you asked killers DS was such a huge problem that they literally had to plan games around it.
As far as CoA goes, it wouldn't turn the game unwinnable at all. As it stands right now if a killer is playing without camping or tunneling he's playing exactly the same way as he would with CoA except now it would be better for him, because now he might get a chance of getting 2 survivors in 1 spot instead of just 1. So it literally gets rid of camping and tunneling and doesn't hurt the killer pressure. The only person that would see it as a problem is a killer who camps and tunnels because it takes those abilities away. Which is not pressure, it's just garbage. And 2 of the main reasons why this game sucks so much.
You made an incorrect assumption there, it was a big problem. And if you asked killers DS was such a huge problem that they literally had to plan games around it.
Do ask. Because I don't think many killers actually cared about DS outside of the EGC, with how counterable the perk is.
As far as CoA goes, it wouldn't turn the game unwinnable at all. As it stands right now if a killer is playing without camping or tunneling he's playing exactly the same way as he would with CoA except now it would be better for him, because now he might get a chance of getting 2 survivors in 1 spot instead of just 1.
No, it's not quite. Yeah, you have two survivors in one spot, but you currently get that too if someone goes for the unhook. That's not necessarily a camping thing either, if the killer catches someone going for the unhook, it's entirely fair for them to target that survivor.
If you hook someone, if there's someone near you, they still have to contest you in some way. They have to be stealthy enough to slip past you unnoticed, and they need to carefully time it. They need to also have moved into position while you were getting the hook set up. That's time taken off of a gen, and that is part of the pressure you build up as killer.
That would be gone with randomised hooking. Once you slap a survivor onto a hook, they can immediately be freed by another survivor at almost no time loss, if you're unlucky enough. I don't think that kind of RNG is healthy for the game, and I think it'll lead to some very unfair losses for killers.
@squbax said:
Ok what can stop a recently hooked survivor from just running and activating all hags traps, deactivating trapppers traps, sealing demos portals etc since they are not conspicuous actions and the survivor is ending all killer set-up while being at zero risk.
Well, according to Murgleis...
@Murgleïs said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3119405#Comment_3119405
Nothing. Also the new meta will be slugging.
Ironically, you lead with 'Nothing', and then point out that, actually, it's slugging. Yes, you can go around and try to break the set-up, but that's one difference that makes me prefer the design of DS over OTR: The survivor pays up if they try to use it offensively. They cannot be hooked, but they can still be incapacitated.
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@Tactrix said:
Ok as someone who hates both tunneling and camping I can tell you right now these won't fly. First what you're talking about is a built in DS. That's a no-go right from the start. Because if you have a killer who has to worry about DS every single time he hooks someone this game will suck for killers. And no one in the world will accept that as a genuine suggestion.
Now as far as gen speeding up goes, we've talked about it for some time, it's not a thing that would incentivise the killer to leave the hook or to stop tunneling. Yes some people might get out, but for the vast majority it will still result in at least 1 death which makes it not worth doing.
Now if you want to know what I suggested and they still should do is I suggested they make every hook work like cage of atonement. Where you hook someone, they disappear into a random location of the map that the killer doesn't see, and then when the other survivors unhook them the killer sees the explosion. And in tandem removing all anti-camping/tunneling perks, as they will no longer be necessary.
Ok as someone who hates both tunneling and camping I can tell you right now these won't fly. First what you're talking about is a built in DS. That's a no-go right from the start. Because if you have a killer who has to worry about DS every single time he hooks someone this game will suck for killers. And no one in the world will accept that as a genuine suggestion.
This would physically be no different from what DS used to be before the last patch, minus the end-game activation. It wasn't a problem then, why would it be a problem now?
Now as far as gen speeding up goes, we've talked about it for some time, it's not a thing that would incentivise the killer to leave the hook or to stop tunneling. Yes some people might get out, but for the vast majority it will still result in at least 1 death which makes it not worth doing.
Now if you want to know what I suggested and they still should do is I suggested they make every hook work like cage of atonement. Where you hook someone, they disappear into a random location of the map that the killer doesn't see, and then when the other survivors unhook them the killer sees the explosion. And in tandem removing all anti-camping/tunneling perks, as they will no longer be necessary.
Unfortunately, I don't agree with the random hook assignment either. It'd be unfair if the killer hooks a survivor and they randomly get moved to a hook right by a generator that another survivor is working on. The killer would instantly lose all accumulated pressure just on pure chance, and it might turn the game near unwinnable off a dice roll.
And I'm not sure why you brought up gen speeding up. That's not in this suggestion.
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This got snowed in really fast, so I'm just gonna give it a bump and see if there'll be any response.
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BT buffed, but only encouraging risky hook saves which actually leads to faster killer kills;
BT -always- encouraged risky saves, which is why I would've preferred baseline DS over BT.
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@Wewantjason said:
I'm sorry friend but no. I am a killer main and as much as I despise seeing that perk it isn't as busted as you think
Many survivors don't realize you take an overall action economy debuff when you do gens together. It makes that ONE gen go faster, but it's still going slower than if you did two gens separately.
Prove thyself simply removes that penalty and adds the tiniest of buff. That 15% buff includes making up for the (I believe 8-10% debuff? I forget the exact number) that survivors receive for doing the gen together
If they actually did three separate gens while you were in chase you would be seeing things go even faster depending on your mmr and skill bracket.
Tl;dr prove thyself is a decent perk at best. Depending on the survivor communications and gen spawns it can both help and actually even hurt them so no it doesn't really need a nerf. It's fine where it is.
Then again as a killer main sure get rid of it Lmao. I can be honest about how it works but I still want to win lol
"That 15% buff includes making up for the (I believe 8-10% debuff? I forget the exact number) that survivors receive for doing the gen together"
It's 15%. Prove thyself just removes the co-op penalty, it doesn't make gens go faster at all.
As mentioned earlier in this thread, it's only good for securing hotly contested gens.
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@Gorgonia said:
Survivors should play without perks.
Nah, they can keep Autodidact, No Mither and the new Calm Spirit.
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@Garboface said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3106974#Comment_3106974
By buffing killers, yes. Most of the tunneling is due to overpowered mic players. Stronger killers will eventually make it so tunneling is unnecessary, although some will never get it as they play exclusively to make people mad.
Well, that was already tried, and it didn't do jack to reduce tunnelling and it certainly didn't nerf tunnelling!
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1 surv injured = 2%
2 surv injured = 4%
3 surv injured = 6%
4 surv injured = 20% (12 + 8)
So basically, the perk that was a problem on Legion and Plague is nerfed in a way that strongly deters other killers from using it, but doesn't really affect Legion and Plague.
The exact opposite of the intended goal, then.
This is so silly as well, since a better solution is right around the corner from this. Just invert it.
1 surv injured: 12%
2 surv injured: 14%
3 surv injured: 16%
4 surv injured: 18%
Now it's MORE effective on killers that ordinarily wouldn't get value out of it, and LESS effective on Legion and Plague.
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I don't think Thana was originally a problem. It seemed to rarely get picked, and it didn't seem too oppressive. But then it got a double buff with the value per stack being increased, on top of the gen time increase. The multiplicative factor of those buffs swung it out of the park.
Just put Thana's value per stack back to what it was, first. If it's still oppressive then, adjust from there.
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@Garboface said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3104399#Comment_3104399
Mostly due to tunneling, no doubt. Nerfing killers creates more tunneling.
Sounds like we need to nerf tunnelling, huh?
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3105873#Comment_3105873
You've missed my point. I don't want to have to camp and tunnel to win. I literally felt ill when I tried to play for fun and intentionally not camp/tunnel because I've been conditioned so long to do it, and I felt I gave up a match I could have won. I'm tired of killers being pressured into playing in a way that causes them to lose.
You're not really saying why stuff that helps going for hooks makes tunneling and camping "worse". Those would stay about the same, no? But you didn't get Pop, Pain Resonance, Ruin, or Dead Man's Switch value if you were camping or tunneling; there's no time to pressure gens AND tunnel/camp. So how would buffing Dying Light or Grim Embrace make tunneling worse?
Many killers have been willing to let things go for balance, like NOED and moris and even Spirit. The rest was robbed from us: Freddy nerf, Wraith nerf, Deathslinger nerf, Pinhead nerf (#########?). Those, among other nerfs, didn't need to happen, because they weren't too strong, and now there's less killer diversity than ever.
Survivors on the other hand have fought tooth and nail to keep every last tool that they had, even when they were blatantly broken. They're always claiming that entity blocker, removing infinites, Bloodlust, removing 5-feet-apart pallets were all JUST killer buffs. Those were done "because the devs cater to baby killers". In reality those were done for, what you said, game health. And the fact that we're even arguing the removal of endgame DS, hatch, and Endurance stacking shows crazy survivor bias.
I feel that survivors don't appreciate their buffs, compared to when killers get theirs, because killers have traditionally sucked and survivors were the power role. Killers got a few qol buffs, a few minor perk buffs, and suddenly the game is "broken" and "killer favored". Survivors got their "free escape in endgame" stuff nerfed, rightfully so, but they got BT for free now. They got a mere 10 seconds added onto gens, whilst toolboxes and Prove Thyself we're left untouched, and perks like Deja Vu and Overzealous were buffed. Gens do not take "forever".
Maybe tunneling and camping can't be fixed. If you make it to where killers can't do it, then we've simply transitioned from endgame perks leading to free escapes, to someone being on hook leading to a free escape. And don't even start with saying that killers camp and tunnel in response to bad balance. They do it to win. Whereas survivors always mass DC on hook, like they're doing now, when killers get a buff. "That's too strong! Rage quit!"
At some point killers are gonna get nerfed again, and it's probably gonna be unfair. If it's a nerf to tunneling or camping, I can guarantee you the devs are gonna mess it up, and give killers nothing in return. I don't like talking about nerfs and buffs like this, the idea that there has to be a trade-off to one side when something happens to the other. But when we're talking about killer, you've got to make them feel like they can win. This is common sense on the most basic of levels. Make the 1 in the 1v4 stronger; make the killer/monster feel like a threat!
You've missed my point. I don't want to have to camp and tunnel to win. I literally felt ill when I tried to play for fun and intentionally not camp/tunnel because I've been conditioned so long to do it, and I felt I gave up a match I could have won. I'm tired of killers being pressured into playing in a way that causes them to lose.
Forum killers dug that hole for themselves. You wanna keep tunnelling and camping in? Then those are the baseline. You can't win without them? Well, we can't fix that, because we can't balance for 12-hooking if killers just get the option to camp and especially tunnel, since those are more effective strategies.
You can't have your cake and eat it too.
You're not really saying why stuff that helps going for hooks makes tunneling and camping "worse". Those would stay about the same, no? But you didn't get Pop, Pain Resonance, Ruin, or Dead Man's Switch value if you were camping or tunneling; there's no time to pressure gens AND tunnel/camp. So how would buffing Dying Light or Grim Embrace make tunneling worse?
The only one that doesn't get value from camping is Pop, the others all work and will aid when camping. DMS can be argued to not work if none of the survivors ever let go of a gen, ever, but hey, since survivors have no baseline way to determine when a killer is camping, one of them is bound to let go of their gen to try and go for the unhook, thus losing time and locking the gen.
I feel that survivors don't appreciate their buffs, compared to when killers get theirs, because killers have traditionally sucked and survivors were the power role.
Survivors were never the power role. That parroted line has no basis in reality. I know everyone likes to trot out 'oh, but tournament play!', while disregarding that 95% of the playerbase doesn't play on that level. Back when I first saw this story being spread around, the kill rate at red ranks was 68%.
I also like that you say 'survivors don't appreciate their buffs, compared to killers', and then you subsequently describe half a dozen stacking baseline killer buffs as
a few qol buffs, a few minor perk buffs
This in the wake of a new trend of forum killers disregarding any criticism of the new patch with 'Survivors mad because DH got nerfed'.
They got a mere 10 seconds added onto gens
Which is a minimum of 50 extra seconds of manpower, not counting the extra space for pressure given to the killer, nor is it counting the multiplicative interaction this has with slowdown perks like Thanatophobia.
And don't even start with saying that killers camp and tunnel in response to bad balance.
There've been plenty of comments and a couple of threads.
But when we're talking about killer, you've got to make them feel like they can win.
They could always win. Otz strung together a win on every killer, perkless, add-on-less, and with 30 seconds spent AFK. It's perfectly feasible. Not every match is going to be you getting outmatched by a team pulling all the stops and showing skill outstripping your own.
But this:
I don't want to have to camp and tunnel to win.
This mentality as a way to shut down criticism of camping and tunnelling is the entire problem. Because it's essentially saying that this issue's resolution is directly dependent on your individual competence.
Which means that if you play worse, you feel you deserve to tunnel and camp.
If survivors can be held to tournament standards, so can you.
Stop defending camping and tunnelling.
Play better.
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@Alphasoul05 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3105873#Comment_3105873
The game is specifically designed in a way that you'll never really be able to stop people from camping or tunneling, it just isn't possible on a fundamental level. The developers themselves have chosen on their own that kills are more important than hooks, despite plenty of people championing the idea that the health of the game would be better if it were balanced around hooks. The keyword here is balanced, because you have to balance the game around an entirely different way and statistics that are completely different than kills/escapes, and it will never happen.
All this said I dislike the idea that camping and tunneling shouldn't be allowed. I think if a game is spiraling out of your control because the survivors are very good, then your literal best option to win is to tunnel someone or play smart. Well, if losing is so irrelevant, why bother doing gens? I think if you've got 3 survivors injured all doing gens, one on the hook, and they greed to do those 3 gens, then a killer shouldn't be punished for planting their ass in front of that hook to force a hook state/death, because those survivors chose to do gens rather than heal.
I mean what do we do here? Give every unhooked survivor, without the use of perks, 100% immunity until full healed, where they also can't touch a gen? Obviously you would have to give them 0 collision. Do we give any survivor in x radius to a hook damage immunity until they unhook another survivor, and then give them immunity to one shots after the unhook for x time? Just give people free saves, free escapes? And then do we say "Well, good killers don't camp and tunnel, so this should be fine anyway" or something?
The game is specifically designed in a way that you'll never really be able to stop people from camping or tunneling
Sure, you can never completely stop it.
But you can introduce drawbacks. DS was almost perfect before its most recent double nerf. It just needed to be disabled post fifth-gen, and work off both hooks, but instead we got an EGC disable and, for whatever reason, 40% off the stun timer.
Baseline DS would work to make tunnelling not unconditionally the best option. And slowing the hook timer exponentially for every survivor on a gen would force the killer to go out and pressure gens rather than camp, unless survivors are doing a stand-off at the hook.
But any discussion, -any- discussion about doing something about camping/tunnelling will always be met with 'can't be done', 'they're valid strats', 'they only work on low level', 'if the game was easier for killers, they wouldn't camp/tunnel as much!', or some unholy amalgamation of the four.
They need to be nerfed. And until they are, survivors should stop having to make concessions, because there's no reciprocity.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3104688#Comment_3104688
Yes, the new player experience is important. But it's not important for balancing. From the time that players learn to play the game onward, there's gonna be camping and gen rushing, and there's nothing that the other side can do about it because they don't know what to do, and even if they do they lack the experience to execute the counterplay. So this whole new spin on "face camping is getting worse" "tunneling is getting worse" is BS. It always has and always will be a thing. You just see it complained about more now because killer got a recent buff, and I'll also bet there's a new generation of survivor mains who just hit the forums. So if we're just talking about this experiment to show off how annoying face camping is for new players, it's fine. But I believe it was the OP's intention, and the intention of many people who have replied to this post, to use this as a basis for balancing. "We need to revert the killer buffs OR introduce a new game mechanic that punishes killers for camping/tunneling!" is what I'm hearing.
I'm hearing people complain about the state of the game, especially in regards to new killer builds, as if it's the most unhealthy we've had. It isn't. I think the last meta we had for killers was unhealthy (for the killers!) because it was Corrupt/Deadlock/No Way Out, which was guaranteed slowdown that survivors actually couldn't do anything against. People said the meta was Pop/Ruin or Pain Res/DMS. It wasn't (except for mid MMR), because every time I used those builds at high MMR I lost, and every time I used Corrupt/Deadlock/No Way Out I at least felt I had a chance of winning no matter the circumstances. Even back then, the way to win was tunneling and 2-hooking. Deviate from it and lose.
Gens are still too fast. Call Of Brine/Overcharge actually does nothing if the survivors simply come behind you and gen tap. The only time gens feel normal is when Thana/Pentimento is up; there's time for multiple chases! But even still, at the highest MMR or with SWF or with the right gen speed tools, survivors can still push through. That forces killers to camp and tunnel just to play it safe. So we're still dealing with the issue of killers needing to tunnel, camp, and use gen slowdown to win, which is too much for solos and people unprepared for the killer to play dirty (which he's allowed to do), and everyone points the finger at the killer like they're a bad person for trying to win.
So the real problem is, "How do we allow killers to tunnel and camp without it being oppressive, while also making sure killers have a chance to win without those strategies?" My stance was, and still is, to make going for hooks over kills viable. That means not nerfing perks like Pain Res and Pop, and that means making perks like Dying Light and Grim Embrace viable.
So the real problem is, "How do we allow killers to tunnel and camp without it being oppressive, while also making sure killers have a chance to win without those strategies?" My stance was, and still is, to make going for hooks over kills viable. That means not nerfing perks like Pain Res and Pop, and that means making perks like Dying Light and Grim Embrace viable.
This is the problem I have with how forum killers approach camping/tunnelling. This is a very oft repeated argument: Just make going for hooks more effective.
And then they do. And tunnelling and camping become a bigger problem, and we're still on this argument.
Killers have been completely unwilling to concede anything for game health, at all. We've had loads of survivor nerfs over time, and a ton of them were accepted. Hatch is gone? Fine, it wasn't fun. DS getting its EGC usage clipped? Fine, that wasn't fun either. Removed Endurance stacking? Yeah, that wasn't fun either. Gen speeds are getting slowed? Risky, but if it helps killers have a better time...
Yet throughout everything that has been demanded to get removed from survivors, everything survivors agreed to give up to improve killer gameplay, throughout all of it, forum killers have been utterly unwilling to budge on the issue of camping and tunnelling.
Let me ask you: Why on earth do you want to keep tunnelling and camping?
According to you, and many others who defend this stuff, it's a bad tactic that doesn't work against competent survivors. If that is the case, then nerfing those tactics would ONLY improve the new player experience, and have zero effect on the higher ranks of play where these tactics are supposedly untenable.
In reality, camping and tunnelling are used as beatsticks and empty promises. If the devs do anything we don't like, we'll camp and tunnel more. If they do stuff we want, we'll totally tunnel and camp less.
And five nerfs later, camping and tunnelling will still be in the game. And they'll continue to be in the game, no matter how much survivors get nerfed or killers get buffed. They'll continue to be problems, and forum killers will continue to defend it with more 'maybe if the game was a bit easier for kilers, we'd camp less'.
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Starstruck would thematically not really benefit from this interaction though. It projects a limited duration Exposed status, so when it triggers, you want it to be close to you, not the obsession.
But Coulrophobia could be a real problem for the survivors, as could Overwhelming Presence and Unnerving Presence. Could be fun to saddle the obsession with a triple debuff aura, making them heal slower, increasing skill check chances and difficulty, and making their items run out faster.
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@mustdogen said:
They buff Bt, rework a new op NT tunnel perk, make an in game bt and speed boost.
Why you stillcomplaing?
TBF, the new anti-tunnel perk is worse for both sides. It can be disabled if the killer tunnels hard enough, and it's more effective when used offensively against non-tunnelling killers.
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@Clockwork_Enigma said:
And it's not because the developers decided to just nerf the perk without reason.
Those of you whom take just a few seconds to look up the history of the perk's changes will clearly see that Decisive Strike was buffed to 5 seconds simply due to the fact that Enduring was able to work against the Perk.
Then Enduring got changed to where it cannot work with said perk anymore, and the change ultimately remained despite the promise it would eventually get reverted.
Now, as of 6.1.0, the change was reverted and thus Decisive Strike lasts 3 seconds like it originally did.
So to those of you whom are complaining that this Perk is now useless against tunneling, do realize that this change was meant to happen back in 2019 at the very least, but was belated for reasons unclear.
The 5 seconds to 3 seconds change was always meant to happen for years. It finally happened, so don't be complaining about it. Instead, if you're going to use Decisive Strike, pay attention to where you intend to go, and maybe it'll save your ass.
Just don't rely on the perk as a crutch at this point and you'll be able to make use out of it still.
And?
This was in version 2.6.3, before the conspicuous action nerf. Yes, the five second stun would've been a problem at that point, DS legitimately made survivors untouchable while they worked on gens.
But in 4.6, it was nerfed to only work if the survivor hadn't contributed to the team since the last unhook. That was a gargantuan nerf.
Yes, a five second stun is a problem on a perk that is either going to fire, or going to produce, effectively, up to 60 seconds of gen progress that the killer can't contest.
It is not a problem on a perk that only ever functions if the killer deliberately chooses to make it.
'It was supposed to go back to 3 seconds!' is just complete blindness to the actual balance and design of the perk. 3 second DS with the conspicuous action limitation and EGC ban is a joke. It'll hardly ever fire, and now when it does, it'll carry no value. Who would use a perk like that?
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@Killer_BeeYT said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3104841#Comment_3104841
Oh good god the good old "just don't tunnel 4head" argument. My dude there's a reason both perks are top tier. They buy time. Sometimes you have no choice but to tunnel. Survivors can FORCE that. The only reason dead hard came above them was the amount of times it could be used. But DS unbreakable alone bought so much time. Every second chance perk forced you to alter your objective so you didn't get punished.
How did it force you to do that?
The only way you're going to get a survivor with DS is if you tunnel off-hook, or they wasted a ton of their time keeping DS up. All it takes is pulling off the unhooked and going for the unhooker. The moment-to-moment pressure will be roughly the same.
But DS unbreakable alone bought so much time.
And even with all that, tunnelling still proved extremely effective. Even with DS, people would still insist that it's a valid strategy and more effective than 12-hooking, which is what the game is designed around.
If you want to tunnel, tunnel. But don't whinge about DS, a perk whose ONLY purpose is to punish tunnelling, punishing your tunnelling. And if your opinion is that tunnelling needs to be completely unrestricted in its application, and its counterperks should be removed, then survivors will need colossal buffs to accommodate for this drastic shift in balance-point.
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@Killer_BeeYT said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3104816#Comment_3104816
Dead hard + Unbreakable + DS made a nearly game breaking combo that an infant could beat killers with. I'm sorry but if you think survivors NEEDED that many second chances then you are not the best. I don't wanna say rude stuff like that but that's simply the truth.
How much are Unbreakable and DS going to do for any given survivor if you just counterplay either? DS cannot fire if you don't tunnel. Unbreakable can't fire if you just pick up whoever you downed. If there's other survivors trying to distract you from picking up the UB user, good: It's a one use perk, and you've got at least half the survivors unable to work on gens for a prolonged period of time.
Dead Hard was a problem, sure, but after the conspicuous action nerf, DS purely functions as a counter to tunnelling, and Unbreakable functioned in support of that. If you're complaining about DS after the conspicuous action nerf, YOU are the problem, not DS.
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@Grigerbest said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3104802#Comment_3104802
Do you play high mmr soloq, or you never got there by any chance?=)
Killer was INSANELY stressfull before update on high mmr. Every single soloq survivors were running second chance perks, killer just couldn't phisically keep up with gen speed.
Are you sure about killer is easier than soloq? xD
All the killer was: Hoping for survivors to mess up, just for killer to have a chance of winning.
Killer was INSANELY stressfull before update on high mmr.
That's a game design issue too though, not necessarily just a balance issue. The killer is ALWAYS on the clock, and it's always an uphill battle unless you are absolutely demolishing the survivors. This also runs the risk of making many wins feel like losses because they're just frustrating to attain.
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@Killer_BeeYT said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3104531#Comment_3104531
Other than dead hard? Holding W heal speeds (which still are busted), the amount of second chances that survivors had, medkits (which are still busted), gen speeds,decisive being able to be used at end game. There are plenty I can list. Also how am I being not mature? The get good argument is exactly the right call here. A lot of survivors are now saying to revert the patch because of killers being too strong.
the amount of second chances that survivors had
The game, at base, gives survivors three hookstates, and thus three chances. If you take issue with them having a second chance, that's very much a -you- problem.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3104615#Comment_3104615
So you mean you should tunnel every survivor form the start of the game?
If forum killers are going to jump high and low to defend tunnelling and camping, you might as well use it and refer to it as a balancing baseline.
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@ThatOneDemoPlayer said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3104528#Comment_3104528
Old DS during end-game? Please tell
What do you mean 'during end-game'? Just get it out beforehand.
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@ThatOneDemoPlayer said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3104409#Comment_3104409
Again, camping is counterable, and only works if the team has 1 or more weak-links
So is DS.
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@ThatOneDemoPlayer said:
Free Escapes are a strategy?
As much as free second and third hookstates are.
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@Killer_BeeYT said:
To put things to rest immediately, I play both sides equally. I have nearly 3K hours (yeah not as much as you 15K monsters) but I can safely say that this patch shows just how much survivors relied on being overall busted for 6 years straight. There are so many players just not playing the game because they can't get gens done and bully the killer at the same time now and seeing so many people complain about it is honestly awful to see. The reason the kill rates were so low was that survivor was busted for 6 long years. Thinking otherwise is just... Showing how blind you are. The devs finally said "Alright, we're gonna make changes for the better." And now this game is actually balanced! Yet so many players are literally trying to change the stats so they revert it. Unfortunately the only thing to say to these survivors is... Get good lmao. It's as simple as that. Stop being childish and complaining over huge changes that were bound to happen if the devs cared about the game.
The reason the kill rates were so low was that survivor was busted for 6 long years.
Last time stats were released, kill rate was at 55%. The time before that, 68%.
Very low kill rates, yes.
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@EternalSinOfCain said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3103424#Comment_3103424
Getting better at the game? If you can't have a good time getting your ass kicked by better players, than that's a you problem.
Coming home after a long day at work, and firing up MKX or MK11, then getting smacked around by the likes of Sonic Fox or the #1 Best Shao Khan player in the world was the highlight of my day. It let me know I WAS good enough of a Sub-Zero to get matched with them.
I'm sick of it it Hunt : Showdown where they reward players who can't aim worth a crap. The ones who rely on sitting in a corner with 15 traps at every entrance and exit, camping a corner with a shotgun. I'm sick of the crap players who can't do anything but spam a bunch of bullets and hope RNG carries them.
I'm so sick and tired of everyone trying to celebrate and reward mediocracy. Everyone wanting their "participation trophies", wanting to win when they don't deserve it.
So survivors have to constantly keep getting better at the game, and you are using that to justify the killer AFKing next to a hook as a strat?
Why does it always seem to be 'Survivors win = Survivors OP, killer wins = survivors bad'?
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@Killing_Time said:
Dude, the only major nerf really was dead hard and 10s on gens. Git gud
You don't think the baseline kick regression, improved action speed, shortened on-hit cooldown and shortened on-hit sprint burst were relevant?
Are we going to have to remind people every day for another week to get another of the plethora of killer buffs added to forum killer memories? First it was only Dead Hard, now it's Dead Hard and 10 seconds on gens, maybe if we keep pointing out how wrong that reductionist stuff is for another week or two, we'll bump it up to Dead Hard, 10 seconds, and the kick regression.
Maybe this time next year, forum killers will finally be honest and mention ALL the buffs.
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Exhaustion stacking would be extremely busted. Enduring DS was extremely busted. Multi-Endurance was extremely busted.
All of these are fair nerfs. Don't argue against those, argue in favour of a Forever-build nerf.
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It's like DH became a bigger problem with its removal, I've never seen such a concentration of complaints about it before.
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@AnchorTea said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3101555#Comment_3101555
Would making gens 85 seconds instead of 90 fix these problems?
We already know it wouldn't, this was a problem with 80 second gens too.
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@Huge_Bush said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3099805#Comment_3099805
By your reasoning, we could say that survivors got free escapes when they had the original Dead Hard and the devs did the right thing and nerfed it so now, survivors have to earn their escapes rather then get easy escapes.
I think that's missing what semblance of a point Gindaen was making.
But basically, there's no way to prove that the shift in game state is due to DH, or even how much of it is due to DH, because there were half a dozen other nerfs alongside it.
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@Starrseed said:
the biggest plague this community has is the whole fun argument. for one side playing a fair round is fun for another side its only fun if you win and then you got people that only have fun when they can harress the enemy and toy with them.
so there is no clear that is fun to play side and then you get people that say they only play scummy because the other side playes scummy. for example i am a killer main that doesnt camp or tunnel am i now entitelt to only get face survivor that act nice and polite? do i get a little flag in the lobby so people see im a nice guy and they need to act acordingly. i give hatch to the last surv when i have a 3k does this mean when i lose one surv has to offer themself to me.
these examples are ofcourse a bit over the top but what i want to say is we need to stop bringing fun as a weapon to arguments. stuff like camping sucks and needs to go because one thing that is 100% not fun is hanging on a hook all game just like it wasnt fun that you coulnd do anything about dh for distance. otherwise i think we cant use fun as a metric for balance because we have so many diffrent people playing this game that get there fun from so many diffrent things that it is impossible to make it fun for everyone.
what do you people think about that?
Fun isn't a metric for balance, but things can be balanced in a fun way and in a non-fun way.
If you get a killer that starts the trial with the ability to instantly kill two survivors, but that subsequently is completely unable to interact with the remaining two, that would be immaculately balanced, and absolutely zero fun for both parties.
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@Barbarossa2020 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3095200#Comment_3095200
How is it different from any other business?
A Business sets it's own K.P.I's, just because you as a customer diagree with it doesn't mean it's wrong or right.
And like any other business if you're not happy with it the best thing you can do is to use your feet or your wallet in this case and not support them.
Then that's skewing things for economic incentive, but it's not -balance-. This has been a long-standing argument for why the game was supposedly survivor-sided: It was economically more advantageous to just give survivors whatever they want, since there's more of them and thus they pay more.
But that's not -balance-.
@Kalinikta said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3095200#Comment_3095200
Yes, if that is where they determine it to be based on the data.
Such an arbitrary single digit doesn't actually reflect balance. If 1000 players with less than 150 hours all get 4ks all the time but the 250 players with over 150 hours gets 0 the overall killrate is still extremely high, is that balanced? That is what you ignore, it isn't a single factor that determines how balanced the game is. The devs look at way more to determine where they want those values to be and if they state kill rates were to low that is simply the case. Additionally when a player dies the chances more die increase exponential, so... That is also a factor.
You clearly don't know how game balance is determined. In the end Devs set the bar, so what they want is literally the definition of the balance.
No, what they want is what they want. If they want the game to heavily favour survivors, that's not balance, that's just the devs heavily favouring survivors.
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@Kalinikta said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3095152#Comment_3095152
Actually the devs are the ones that determine how they want it balanced and where that line is. Balance is not a uniform single definition, as skill levels, coordination, experience are factors. So... Actually yes what the devs want is actually where that balance point is defined.
Balance isn't really that subjective. If the devs say the game is balanced if killers average 3.5 kills, would that actually be balanced?
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3095053#Comment_3095053
The devs own words: kill rates are too low. You can’t argue against that, devs aren’t happy with kill rates.
That's all well and good, but last we saw, there was a 55% kill rate. Whatever the devs want isn't necessarily the definition of balance.
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@ausanimal said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3094987#Comment_3094987
The first sign that killers might be the power role and survivors have to work to escape and they quit, but survivors were very happy to run old DS+UB+DH for how many years and lets not forget the classic i used my DS at 55 sec after spend 45sec on a gen the killer was tunneling me, lets not bring up the mori nerf and how killers had to sit though lobby after lobby of people bringing in keys but i guess it was killer sided back then and getting out the hatch with 2-3 gens left was fair.
The killer has always been the power role. But if you're talking about balance, it hasn't been survivor sided in a very long time.
After CoH's release, kill rates were around 55%. Before CoH, the kill rates averaged around 67%. In both of these scenarios, the forums held an unshakeable mentality where the game's survivor sided. But 'forum killers' have always refused to consider their own skill in the equation.
Killers win? Survivors bad. Survivors win? Killers UP.
The game's survivor sided, because look at tournament level play!
The game's not killer sided, Otz getting consistent wins on every single killer without any perks or add-ons and with the first 30 seconds spent AFK is not an indicator because Otz plays this game for a living and is way too high level a killer.
The game has been varying degrees of killer sided for years, killers just aren't as good as they think they are, and/or just aren't having fun and are confusing that for unbalanced gameplay.
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@Dunkinspunkin said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3091571#Comment_3091571
LOL imagine a bunch of miserable people logging in and spending their free time doing something they hate.
The numbers drop when people aren't having fun, genius.
I don't think it's that far fetched. I think League of Legends is notorious for not being fun to play, but also being highly addictive. They actually stopped doing derivative gamemodes because people would play those modes, but then quit the game, rather than go back to playing the normal mode when the gamemode gets removed again. I think that's because when you get used to playing something, it can be hard to recognise when you stop having fun with it.
So yeah, I think it's entirely possible that there's people that don't like DBD that still play it religiously.