Firellius
Firellius
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@Ksekwlothreftis said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3055524#Comment_3055524
Despite the irony around it, have u failed to notice this update is a "meta shake up"? They gutted every meta perk and replaced them with others. U are asking for a nerfed meta perk to get even more meta while in the same time have another soon to be meta perk stack with it. Why are ppl allowed to post such dumb ideas with no basis on reality? Like ######### man u want to get chased, get hit, use dh, get downed, get hooked and unhooked, have bt, have otr, have ds, use otr, use dh, get downed, use ds, and then get downed again and then repeat the same exact sequence 1 more time. Not even factoring bodyblocking and any loops u choose to use. How can u see this massive time waste for killer and say, Oh yes lad that seems fair and totally not broken. Fcking daydreamers out here
DS is literally the most counterplayable perk. In order to get hit with it, you need to chase down a target that has just been unhooked, down them within a minute, without them doing anything to help the survivors, and then you need to pick them up.
So you have the following counterplay options:
1) Go for someone else.
2) Stalk them until they do something that disables DS.
3) Don't press spacebar.
DS requires an astronomical amount of work from the killer to fire. What you are arguing here is that the killer has zero accountability, and should be able to hard tunnel into a build with two or three anti-tunnel perks, without being punished.
Guess what? 90% of your problem goes away if you just go for the unhooker, instead of the unhooked.
Now, OTR is absolutely worse for both killer and survivor gameplay, but DS deserved some serious buffs to offset the EGC nerf. It's one of the worst perks in the game already, and it's up for a double nerf. There'll be zero reason to run it, even if OTR didn't exist.
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@_VTK_ said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3053601#Comment_3053601
There's no reason to propose it because DEVs won't go back to this idea, not because that ideas makes no sense.
Non-camping Killers feel would feel no difference from increased hook timers. As soon as someone is hooked most survivors swarm the hook and a hooked survivor almost never reaches the next hook stage unless the killer camps. On top of that the longer a survivor is hooked, the longer there's one survivor less in the game doing gens, repairing, healing, destructing the killer. So this argument is invalid.
There's no reason to propose it because DEVs won't go back to this idea, not because that ideas makes no sense.
The devs are infallible, and the feedback section is a hoax.
Dev opinion is not an argument.
Non-camping Killers feel would feel no difference from increased hook timers. As soon as someone is hooked most survivors swarm the hook and a hooked survivor almost never reaches the next hook stage unless the killer camps. On top of that the longer a survivor is hooked, the longer there's one survivor less in the game doing gens, repairing, healing, destructing the killer. So this argument is invalid.
I disagree. Especially in the case of Hex Ruin, a shorter hook timer may force a survivor to let go of a gen before they're able to finish it, if they don't want to risk their teammate losing a hookstate. Additionally, if the killer is attempting to juggle multiple survivors, they don't need to hold on to that state for as long with shorter hook timers.
I can just see some collateral damage to non-camping killers if the hook timers are increased.
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@_VTK_ said:
Slowing down the sacrifice timer based on killer proximity won't be implemented again, it failed in a test, so there's no reason to propose it again.
The first idea that comes to mind is making hook timers longer. This won't prevent camping entirely, but if a killer decides to camp, he should only get a single survivor.
Another ideas is to give survivors more information. DEVs announced more HUD icons already, but not for this year.
Here's an example: if each survivor had a heartbeat (a beating heart icon)/repairing a gen/being chased (knife)/healing indicators, that would already be enough. If the hooked person hears heartbeat and other survivors are repairing gens or healing, that means the killer is camping. You can go on repairing gens to hurt the camping killer. If someone suddenly stopped doing a gen, he probably went for the unhook, other survivors can continue repairing gens. If it's an insidious Bubba, it would still help, it would prevent all survivors rushing for the save and as soon as Bubba starts moving, the heart icon for the hooked survivor and for the unhooker will start beating, signaling other survivors about a camping killer.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/E7F5T7Q018QM/untitled-1.jpg
Firstly, that test ran five years ago. There's every reason to test it again, with all the changes that have been made in the meantime.
Secondly, I don't think hook timer increases are a good idea, since that'd nerf non-camping killers too, lowering the pressure on the survivors.
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@BrokenSouI said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3036768#Comment_3036768
But it's NOT a free win. That's what you're failing to realize. YOU and your team messed up to all be in a close proximity at the same time. You messed up. The killer earned that by downing 4 people entirely...Nothing about it is free. Other then you thinking it should be free to get back up.
It's not an error for survivors to help their teammates. Slugging ends up with the same problem as camping. In fact, slugging usually comes from a killer camping a slug.
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With DbD's netcode?
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OTR is worse for both killers and survivors, in comparison to DS. It's quite impressive, really.
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@adamkad1 said:
This sounds like a load of bull but whatever. People didnt care what WGLF or BBQ did. They only took it because it gave BP. And thats bad design. Having people take a perk just because it offers a very specific boost that doesnt help you in a match whatsoever
BBQ & Chili is a serviceable perk without the BP boost. WGLF I'll grant you.
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@DaddyMyers_Mori said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3042505#Comment_3042505
not really, they want to use DS, so I let them. I am such a nice killer. Then killed them for it.
When I try to actively choose other survivor, they are trying to stop me, because they know I can't do anything about it, so I prove them wrong by killing them first.
I feel like you forgot your original argument, because now you're openly stating that you are intentionally triggering DS.
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@Veinslay said:
The devs should definitely release stats showing how many 3 - 4 stack SWFs there are what their escape rates are. I'm assuming 75%+ escape rate
I believe the devs stated that, across the various MMR levels, the highest escape rate gap between solo and swiffer was 15%.
This may have increased or decreased with certain changes since.
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@DaddyMyers_Mori said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3042065#Comment_3042065
But they did have DS, so I killed them for it.
You are saying I 100% had to tunnel when I get DS, which is just not true.
There are two ways how I am going to get DS and both are based on survivor's actions. Either hiding inside locker in front of me, or bodyblocking me while I am trying to chase someone else.
But in both cases, you are actively choosing to eat the DS by focusing on a survivor that was unhooked less than 60 seconds ago, before they could do anything else. You are choosing to take that DS, instead of going for someone who cannot have DS.
Taking that DS is entirely -your- fault.
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@DaddyMyers_Mori said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3041775#Comment_3041775
Really?
I am Legion main. I just want to use frenzy to find other survivors, if they would let me hit them I would just run away, but they hide inside a locker with DS, what else am I supposed to do?
I just open the locker and then use the fact that they don't have DS anymore.
Then it doesn't make a difference if they have DS or not, they could still end your power by hiding in a locker so you have to end the Frenzy to pick them up.
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@DaddyMyers_Mori said:
So basically, if they don't nerf off the record, then we should wait those 5 seconds and hit a survivor to find out if he has off the record.
If he does, then I am going to tunnel the hell out of him, for using that perk.
I have done same with DS, if you force me to eat DS by going inside a locker, you are dead.
They absolutely cannot force you to eat DS by going into a locker. If you get hit by DS, outside of end-game, you are tunnelling and you deserve to be hit with DS.
That said, OTR is poised to make things worse for both sides of the aisle. It can be used offensively, and can be circumvented if a killer tunnels hard enough.
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@Tricksters_30thBlade said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3039070#Comment_3039070
Yes it punishes tunnelers but survivors that like to jump in a locker or force a grab, or go down on purpose later on in the match while ds is still active is unfair to the killer
You can keep track of who you hooked last, and that will generally be enough to know who you should not be picking up if they actively try to force a grab. If they're going down on purpose, leave them and continue your hunt, they're wasting their own time far more than yours.
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@Tricksters_30thBlade said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3039060#Comment_3039060
They need to put work into it. 5 seconds is not fair to a killer like nemisis or hag, or even trickster
How is it not fair? It's the single most avoidable perk in the game. Or at least it will be once it gets excluded from end-game.
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@Phantom_ said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3037165#Comment_3037165
How about just don't tunnel? Go for the unhooker.
How is that concept so foreign for so many killers?!
The problem is that, in end-game, the killer doesn't really have much of a choice, they have to take what they can get.
So the EGC nerf is fine. Hell, it should break on fifth gen completion, IMO. But the stun nerf is just to drop the perk out of the game so the devs can say 'we shook up the meta'.
DS should've been baselined after the end-game nerf.
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That would be a positive change, which is unlikely.
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@Wondertainment said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3035286#Comment_3035286
Ultimately it doesn't matter what I believe (or perceive). It only matters what the DEV think and what their internal metrics show them.
So since the players cannot voice any disagreement with the devs, the feedback section can just be scrapped, right?
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@Wondertainment said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3035077#Comment_3035077
Uh-huh. :) I think it is clear that we will have to agree to disagree. I will point out that NOED has been around a long time, doesn't appear to be departing, and even the change to it they are testing does not support your views. The numbers, which are more the purview of the DEV, tell them a story which has consistently left NOED as it stands. They have STATED clearly that they like NOED the way it is designed to encourage, strongly, Survivors to go after those secondary objectives. I know you don't like that, but that is its purpose. It exists not so much because everyone uses it (they don't) but because the threat of its mere existence gives people a reason to go after those Totems.
So you can spew whatever you want about why you think it is a problem. I would point you towards doing a search of this Forum and be ready to read a NOVEL length of combined posts made by people just like you. They have been hating on the NOED for all six years with no result. The only reason it is even getting a tweak now is because the DEV are interested in shaking up the game a touch and only because beginner Survivors and new Killers need some nudging on it.
"I think it is clear that we will have to agree to disagree."
Yes, because if you still think that NOED encourages survivors to do totems, you haven't read anything I wrote, and you are not going to.
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@Wondertainment said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3034758#Comment_3034758
No, with all due respect, I'm not the one missing the point. A gamble is a choice; the two are synonymous with each other. All choices we make are gambled based on outcomes we expect. You do one thing expecting a cause and effect. There is nothing wrong with NOED. Actual metrics have shown this time and time again. My only complaint about NOED is how many sniveling posts I have to read where people whine about something they themselves have the power to mitigate. The change being tested right now seems fine to me. It seemed fine to me to leave it as it stood too. Survivors decide whether NOED goes off. That is a cold, hard fact. They have all the power in that respect. There are no excuses you can make otherwise. If NOED goes off the Survivors simply did not put in the effort to prevent it.
A gamble is a choice; the two are synonymous with each other.
They're as synonymous as 'Pledged' and 'Donated'. That is to say; not at all.
There is nothing wrong with NOED. Actual metrics have shown this time and time again.
No they haven't. I don't even know if we've had any metrics regarding NOED in particular, let alone 'time and time again', but I believe the only thing that is suggested by anecdata from some forumers is that NOED doesn't disproportionately boost kill rates at higher ranks. Which is a very, very far cry from 'there is nothing wrong with NOED'.
I doubt DS was associated with a disproportionate escape rate increase, but that doesn't make the EGC nerf any less justified. Bad design is really hard to grasp in metrics. The only 'metric' we have to go off in terms of design quality is the amount of 'snivelling posts' you have to read. And since there's this many complaints about NOED, maybe there's something wrong with it.
Survivors decide whether NOED goes off.
A) That's not just up to them, there's a killer in the mix too.
B) It's also not in the individual survivor's power to do this without tanking the match.
C) You can stop the proc, but doing so costs you so much time that it's a stronger slowdown than Thanatophobia against a full No Mither team. That makes the perk unavoidable, per se.
Unless you want to count 'the perk popped up in my face the moment the fifth gen got completed', but that's entirely RNG and completely outside survivor control.
If NOED goes off the Survivors simply did not put in the effort to prevent it.
I used to run DetHunch and Inner Strength. I have shut down four NOEDs by not doing totems. I have shut down... I think 1 NOED by doing totems.
'Doing bones' is not the counter to NOED. It is the opposite of the counter to NOED. It is the literal worst thing you can do to try and stop NOED. Even if you perfectly wipe all five against a killer who has NOED, it was still less efficient than clearing it when it comes up.
And NONE of this is taking into account the role NOED plays in the camping problem, where survivors do not have the time they need to cleanse all five totems.
NOED is, by a country mile, the worst designed perk in the entire game.
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@Wondertainment said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3034648#Comment_3034648
All your comments do is prove that the Totems can be cleansed without issue if you choose to spend the time doing so. It does act, as you point out, as a slow down Perk if you take the time to kill them. You are not required to do so. You are gambling on whether they took NOED or not. :) That is a CHOICE. You can avoid it or not. You can hope they didn't bring it and make bank if you are right.
That... Misses the point in its entirety.
All your comments do is prove that the Totems can be cleansed without issue if you choose to spend the time doing so.
No, they don't. I have not spoken about the attainability of each of these situations, because that would paint NOED in a far, FAR worse light, since it disproportionately disadvantages solo players and new players.
It does act, as you point out, as a slow down Perk if you take the time to kill them.
Thereby the perk becomes unavoidable, contrary to what you said.
You are not required to do so. You are gambling on whether they took NOED or not. :) That is a CHOICE. You can avoid it or not. You can hope they didn't bring it and make bank if you are right.
It is not a choice, it is a gamble with a heavy up-front investment. Its existence in the game creates a loss-loss-loss scenario for survivors, where almost nothing they do is actually correct. And again, this disproportionately hinders solo players and newbies.
From basically every angle, NOED is a terribly designed perk, and needs a rework.
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@Wondertainment said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/331595/show-me-the-noed-stats
If you know, why aren't you doing Bones? NOED is the single MOST avoidable Killer Perk in the game. All it requires is that your Team do Bones, either by destroying Dull Totems, and/or putting a Boon on some so that when that last Generator powers (or the hatch is slammed) NOED cannot spawn. The DEV are not removing NOED because it exists for ONE MAIN PURPOSE. It is there to create an optional secondary objective. Survivors are gambling when they decide whether or not to do Bones. You can choose not to do them and thus finish Generators faster, or you can do them and do Generators slower but be safer when they are done. That is all there is to the matter.
There are lots of Stats that I would like to see and could easily demonstrate why NOED is so aggravating. These would be the Stats of how many people clear a Totem in a match and how consistently. There are five Totems and lots of ways to easily locate them available. Even without add-ons and Perks, it doesn't take long to develop the kills to sniff them out like truffles and put them down. There are simply NO EXCUSES left other than, "I decided to gamble on not needing to do them." So the blame clearly rests with Survivors who:
1. Know NOED exist and is a possibility.
2. Have the option to neutralize the Totems before doing the final Generator.
3. Have lots of things they can take to make said secondary objectives easier.
Do you see where I'm going with this? If you aren't finding your games fun because of NOED the blame rests solely with you and your teammates. It is not the fault of a Perk which by in large is to the Killers disadvantage to run. It puts them down a Perk all game, gambling on some big finish that might amount to NOTHING.
I'll quote to you what I wrote in the topic I made about specifically this aspect of NOED, and the claim that it encourages survivors to 'do bones':
It doesn't. You may want to pre-emptively cleanse a godspawn totem if you come across it, but you definitely don't want to pre-emptively cleanse anything else unless you have strong indicators that NOED is in play.
Let me just lay the situations out...
Situation A: 5 totems cleansed, killer has NOED = NOED disabled, killer loses one perk. Does also mean a loss of 70 seconds of work, so it still worked as a slowdown.
Situation B: 5 totems cleansed, killer does not have NOED = Survivors wasted 70 seconds for no gain, making it work as slowdown without taking up a perk slot.
Situation C: 1-4 totems cleansed, killer does have NOED = NOED activates in full force, survivors wasted 14-56 seconds for no gain. Survivors still have to hunt down NOED totem in post-game.
Situation D: 1-4 totems cleansed, killer does not have NOED = Survivors wasted 14-56 seconds for no gain.
Situation E: 0 totems cleansed, killer has NOED = NOED activates full force, survivors have to hunt down NOED totem in post-game, same as situation C. however this time they did not waste 14-56 seconds.
Situation F: 0 totems cleansed, killer has NOED = No time wasted, no NOED in play.
Legitimately, pre-emptively cleansing totems is the wrong move in 90% of cases. I've broken more NOEDs by leaving totems up than I have by taking them down. The way NOED is currently constructed, it just makes it a mistake to try and cleanse totems, unless the killer is practically guaranteed to have NOED.
It is a risky gamble with a 14 seconds time investment to cleanse a non-hex totem. You are more likely to lose out than to gain.
This is not a comment on NOED balance-wise, but an explanation of something the devs seem to misunderstand.
So no, NOED is absolutely not the most avoidable killer perk, not by a country mile. It is honestly the least avoidable perk in the game because it either activates full force, works as a really solid slow-down perk, or both. The only way NOED doesn't get value is if it gets cleansed the moment it pops.
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Control.
Survivor: Jesse Faden. At least one of her perks has to be the Hotline, the bakelite phone with a direct connection to the astral plane and the Board. Probably some conditional perk where, if you complete the right actions, the Hotline starts ringing. If you can answer it before the killer does, you gain a substantial buff of some kind while the Board is directly assisting you.
Killer: The Hiss. Various bodies are suspended around the map. The killer can assume control of a body to hunt survivors, and can switch at will, though there will be a small delay. Perhaps something can be done with the chant, too, like a slow build up of a negative effect, allowing the Hiss to passively pressure certain locations.
Map: The Oldest House. A sprawling, Escher-like office complex. Wider, open spaces broken up by cubicles, and a few staircases and drops.
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@SuzuKR said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3030507#Comment_3030507
The skill check exists because it is not meant to be guaranteed. You are intended to have the ability to mess up and miss, and thus not get it.
It is once per game, because it is not meant to stop or counter tunneling. It is meant to be a one-time disincentive to discourage reckless tunneling. Against good survivors, it will be punished hard already, as you have just lost your down and must do an entirely new chase to get them again. In which time the survivors will crank out gens against you. And the time you spent chasing for the down up till now will have been rendered mostly useless. It does not need a buff.
It does not work in endgame because expecting the killer to not tunnel in endgame is nonsensical.
The skill check exists because it is not meant to be guaranteed. You are intended to have the ability to mess up and miss, and thus not get it.
That may be the intention, but an intention is not a justification. You can intentionally make a bad decision, but that doesn't make it -not- a bad decision. An additional hindrance here is that there can be errors that are outside the player's control that cause this extremely conditional perk to inadvertently shut down. I think I've seen multiple complaints about DS being unfairly harder to use on Console due to framedrops and lagspikes.
I do think the skill check should stay, but it should be changed to 100% of the skill check bar, so that it essentially becomes unmissable. The reason it should stay is so that the survivor has a clear visual indicator of the time they have to use the perk, before it becomes inaccessible until they're next picked up.
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So they fixed one of DS's issues, didn't fix the other one, and then reworked OTR to be in the exact same spot DS was before the patch, warts and all.
Except OTR is slightly worse for game health.
This has to be one of the dumbest things BHVR's ever done.
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Terror radius perks are fun in general, I feel. I wanna do more with them.
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@HexPleaseLetMeSpeak said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3032161#Comment_3032161
Literally where am I advocating for survivors nerfs???? I'm literally asking for killer buffs, hello? It's like you didn't even read.
DS, OTR, AND BT are not GOOD reasons to go for someone else. Killing the camping / tunneling strat does not make going for someone else suddenly better. All it does is kill the only viable strat killers have to stay competitive. Tunneling is not an issue for survivors to solve with perks and base kit changes. It's literally the fact that going for multiple people is a disadvantage across the board. There are literally ZERO positives to going for multiple hooks on multiple people, outside of token perks and even then, the effects of the token perks aren't even good enough to WARRANT going for someone else.
Nerfing survivors and buffing killers have practically identical outcomes.
Killing the camping / tunneling strat does not make going for someone else suddenly better.
No, but that's not the point.
There are literally ZERO positives to going for multiple hooks on multiple people
But here's the thing: Even if you had a 100% success rate with 12-hooking, it'd still be MORE efficient and effective to tunnel, camp and slug. Those three strats break the fundamental bases of the game, and they will continue to do so until they are burdened with so many countermeasures that they are no longer the better option.
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@kaskader said:
I have no clue how many years it still needs to pass until the devs understand that giving killer a purpose to not stay under the hook and not to tunnel is a good idea? As it is right now they are only nerfing those incentives thus FORCING killer to camp and tunnel. Lets explain it by examples:
POP: pop goes the weasel is probably the healthiest and the most balanced perk in the game. It rewards killer for hooking a survivor (thus for winning chases, thus for the killer's skill) and its strong effect is appealing enough to give killer a purpose to leave the hook, Its a win-win situation, killer is rewarded for getting hooks and actually feels like he achieved something and hooked survivor is ''Happy'' that killer not eating marshmallows in front of him. After the nerf pop will be so incredibly bad (if the gen is on 50% it will only remove 10%) that killers no longer gonna feel like its worth to leave the hook and kick the gen. So nerfing pop is a lose-lose situation, killer it forced to camp because there is no logical reason to go and kick the gen and survivor is pissed off that killer is camping. ALL THANKS TO THE DEVS. Pop should be base kit if anything.
Ruin: Another healthy perk that rewards the killer for applying the pressure and not staying under the hook. I don't really know what to say. Nerfing a perk that already is getting destroyed in 30 seconds is just a cringe. Hexes are DEAD. I would be okay with the nerf if the perk wasn't a hex or at least we could see some buffs to undying.
Corrupt: That change is really good. Tho i was expecting corrupt to be made a base kit. still good for killers that need it the most. Good change.
Pain res: I can believe the change is motivated only to remove pain res and DMS combo. What's going to happen after the nerf is that killers will just simply stay under the hook and camp the survivor because there will be no information to work with. Remove the scream so it no longer works with DMS and let the information stay. ITS ONLY HEALTHY FOR THE GAME DEVS.
So that's my take on those perk changes i really wanna believe that someday devs will realize the obvious fact that the killer needs to rewarded for not camping. If NOT tunneling and camping meta is here to stay :) making the game unfun for both sides.
Ruin: Another healthy perk that rewards the killer for applying the pressure and not staying under the hook. I don't really know what to say. Nerfing a perk that already is getting destroyed in 30 seconds is just a cringe. Hexes are DEAD. I would be okay with the nerf if the perk wasn't a hex or at least we could see some buffs to undying.
The only part of the Ruin nerf I can agree with is the 'disables upon first death'. Honestly, if the killer gets their first hook in before Ruin is found, it's pretty easy to snowball that into a victory. So getting a full on kill before it's found would just guarantee death for the other three. This gives them at least a fighting chance.
But halving the regression rate!? What the heck is up with that!?
@[Deleted User] said:
It's not really clear why they haven't done more to address camping. Camping in and of itself is fine if survivors have the information to effectively play around it. It's pretty bad game design when you're relying on perks and teammate loadouts (that you can't communicate) to balance the mechanic, while at the same time survivors can be in VC in a SWF.
I don't think SWF is broken or OP, I just think solo queue is poorly designed. The lack of information adds nothing fun in 2022. It's not a survival horror game anymore. It's a pvp game and one side gets completely screwed if they're solo and didn't happen to bring Kindred.
Give survivors the information to make decisions and force killers to camp intelligently if they're going to do it. You shouldn't be able to brainlessly camp to victory because 2 survivors left gens to save and you snowballed. If the survivors are dumb, that's one thing. But neither side should win or lose based on poorly designed mechanics
The lack of information adds nothing fun in 2022.
I think it still add something fun. A bit of uncertainty. Not having that info changes your decision-making process and not having full knowledge of the killer is good for tension.
The problem is just that Swiffer vs. Solo creates two massively distinct balancing plateaus that make balancing impossible, and it just has to go.
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If you want killers to tunnel less, add an actual reason for them to go for hooks on someone else.
But DS, OTR and BT ARE reasons to go for someone else.
It's less about tunneling being too strong and more about the fact that going for multiple hooks is too weak of a strat and just doesn't work.
No, it's not, and I'm tired of this argument being tossed around the forums to advocate for some hefty survivor nerfs. Even if killers were at a consistent 4K rate, with 100% 4K chance, it'd STILL be better for the killers to tunnel, camp and slug. You can keep nerfing survivors, but every nerf you slap on them is going to make those three strats stronger.
You know how the gap between solo and swiffer is so big that it makes balancing impossible? The same goes for 12-hooking versus tunnel/camp/slug. You can't nerf killers to account for solos without massively boosting swiffers. Similarly, you can't nerf survivors to account for 12-hooking without massively boosting T/C/S.
T/C/S simply have to go. They have to be nerfed down to match 12-hooking, much like solo needs to be brought up to swiffer, and then you can take those two balance levels and even them out.
None of this 'nerf the survivors down to knives but let killers keep their guns on the promise they'll use them less'.
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@Mandy said:
You can still hook trade, it's a bit more difficult to pull off successfully but it's doable.
We will be watching the feedback to all these changes very intently and things can be adjusted prior to the PTB going Live - so please test things and let us know.
So... Are you saying you made camping stronger?
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If OTR only activates once, it just adds to the absolute stupidity of the DS/OTR redesigns.
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@PrincessVers said:
As the title says.
Can't even play the killer with any other build aside from meta.
Always a 4man sweat face every game.
10 seconds added to gen time is nothing and completely stupid if they think that'll fix the game.
SWFS need their own matchmaking.
Solo-Mode needs to be a thing.
It's not just ten seconds of gen time though, is it?
It's also 10% faster kicking of gens, pallets and walls, and 2.5% innate regression on every kick, and faster bloodlust stacking, and shorter injury sprints, and a shorter attack cooldown.
Don't just single out one buff and say 'that's not enough'.
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Doesn't Prove Thyself technically not bring any kind of value? Most you can get out of a survivor is 1 charge per second. Prove Thyself doesn't change that.
I think @Jarky is right, and the only real value in Prove Thyself is targeting a specific, high value gen to smash it out a bit faster than you normally could. Prove Thyself doesn't actually decrease game time by that much.
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@Viridyan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3027828#Comment_3027828
You have to be trolling. Let me put it this way: If Otz went up against people at his level, do you really think he would 4k with Trapper? There are bad killers. There's no way around it. There are multiple tier lists saying Trapper is a bad killer. Don't believe me? Here's your boy literally D-listing Trapper. End of story.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/ZRU29YXK4H9S/otz-trapper.png
'If Otz went up against people at his level'?
How does that work? Does he get matched down? But if he can't get kills at his own level, wouldn't his level decrease anyway?
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@Nathan13 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3029311#Comment_3029311
I feel like BHVR made OTR this strong as a compensation to the DS nerf. And the DS nerf was kinda harsh.
It may well be that way, but it's a really dumb way to go about it, especially if the one fair nerf they gave DS is reverted in OTR.
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Honestly, the OTR rework should go back to the drawing board, while DS should get its stun duration back up to 5 seconds, and should work off both unhooks, while moving the end-game deactivation trigger from EGC to 5th gen completion.
OTR might be an interesting anti-tunnel perk if it erased scratch marks, bloodstains and injury sounds, but lasting until a conspicuous action is taken, like an informational equivalent of DS, that can make chases near impossible to sustain.
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@Souplet said:
Its adressed in a way
If gens take longer and survivors odnt have 3 health state anymore, there wont be 2 gens pop 1st chase then 1.5 second chase
Thats the issue right now. Thats why killers camp and defend gens around hook. Try to play killer at a decent mmr and see gens fly, you will understand that camping and tunneling is the only way to win a game nowadays
If gen speed problem is adressed, i think camping will be less frequent
Conversely, a direct buff to camping would increase its frequency.
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@VonCrow said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3028855#Comment_3028855
To be honest if you are facecamped at 5 gens the other 3 survivors can do minimum 3 gens (up to maybe more with prove+toolboxes). So its not an effective strategy if survivors work on gens.
It is against premades that tend to be altruistic and they spin around the killer wasting time.
No, it's effective against solo players who have no in-built way of telling the killer is camping, so when the facecamp target isn't getting unhooked, they each check, wasting a ton of time crossing the map to the hook and back.
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@VonCrow said:
If the "surivors" leave the game because of this patch it means they are accepting that the game was busted for them and they can't win properly.
Camping is quite a weak strategy against good survivors. 10 seconds more on gens is not going to make gens impossible to complete. The problem with camping is survivors standing still in front of the killer instead of doing gens.
Punish the killer and work on gens (the only problem is the hooked one killing himself, in that case its not killer's fault tbh).
I've been facecamped at 5 gens before and no one was coming for my rescue at all. It still wound up a 4K because it got paired with NOED and hook timers are too short, so he was free to roam with NOED before the gates were open.
Camping is absolutely OP and is the lynch pin for the game's abhorrent balance.
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@thrawn3054 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3026743#Comment_3026743
Honestly I wouldn't call Otr a mistake. If you don't tunnel it won't effect you. The only part I think needs changed is it still being active during end game.
That's actually a critical difference between OTR and DS: OTR -will- affect you if you're not tunnelling. You can't bodyblock safely with DS, but you -can- with OTR. But the fact that OTR works during end-game when it's only just been fixed on DS does show that the devs just completely blanked out while designing the OTR rework. It is absolutely, 100% a mistake.
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There's, what, six baseline killer buffs? Out of the three slowdown perks that were nerfed, one wasn't nerfed in its slowdown. There's 5 slowdown perks that were buffed, some getting really strong buffs.
Outside of the OTR #########-up, the patch is overwhelmingly in favour of killers. Yet here we are, with more 'Do what I want or I'll camp!'. Camping didn't even get addressed, despite being the absolute biggest balancing problem.
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@Laluzi said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3015417#Comment_3015417
It's really not. You can elect to ignore a survivor that keeps baiting you in lockers. You can't ignore the Jill that keeps getting in your face and blocking doorways while you're trying to chase the Meg.
It was super easy to tell when a survivor was baiting DS and you could ignore or slug depending on how they played it. Survivors with 80 seconds of Endurance can harass you until you're forced to give them what they want for no value to you whatsoever and give your target the chance to disappear.
Exactly. This is why OTR is going to be an actual problem, compared to DS, outside of EGC.
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@Nos37 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3026560#Comment_3026560
If they are doing gens while the killer wastes 40+ seconds getting a down, and then spend 4 seconds running over and getting a flashlight rescue, that is not in the killer's favor. The killer's time is 4x more valuable, not 10x less.
Just give the killer a perk that exposes survivors who blind killer locked in an animation, and make the clicking only audible to other survivors
If they spend as little as 4 seconds getting off the gen to secure a flashlight save, they're a freaking god at the game anyway, and they deserve to be rewarded.
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@TurboTOne said:
maybe they change it so getting healed by any Means deactivates it.
Because if you're healed, you're probably not getting tunneled.
The thing is, you can't control being healed. Someone slapping an instaheal on you can be out of your control, and your perks shouldn't disable over that.
Though in general, DS needs to get the stun nerf reverted and work off both unhooks, while OTR must absolutely go back to the drawing board. DS is way healthier than OTR.
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@Exxodus21 said:
DS is overly relied on. It's not so much used as an anti-tunneling perk as it is an "I can bodyblock with DS/BT/Unbreakable and be invincible and there's nothing you can do about it" perk. Not to mention it's basically a guaranteed escape during endgame if the gates are either opened or 99%.
Things that reduce chase times are what the game needs. No one wants longer gen times and we've been repeatedly told there will not be a secondary objective. Even with NOED complained about so much, people still refuse to break totems because they just want to do gens and escape. So this is where we are.
The real problems are with Nurse and Blight. They are what needs to be looked at. If they need to lose their charges when DS'd then so be it, but this change is healthy for the game and the majority of the killer roster.
DS is overly relied on. It's not so much used as an anti-tunneling perk as it is an "I can bodyblock with DS/BT/Unbreakable and be invincible and there's nothing you can do about it" perk.
Bodyblocking only works with BT. If you try to bodyblock with DS, you're gonna get slugged out and lose more time than you gain.
The end-game nerf to DS is very fair. I'd even say it's undertuned to what it needs to be, which is triggering after 5th gen, rather than only EGC, because 99ing exit gates is a thing. But the stun nerf to DS is an absolutely baffling one, and that's because DS is the perk with the absolute highest killer participation requirement. I mean, think about it, in order to get hit with DS, the killer needs to:
1) Engage the survivor before they performed a conspicuous action
2) Ignore any other viable target
3) Knock down the recently unhooked survivor
4) Actually pick them up
Every single step of the way, you have ample opportunity to not do this. You can NOT run back to the hook the moment there's an unhook and focus on a different target. You can go for the unhooker rather than the unhooked. You can simply slug the unhooked survivor and leave them to rot while you continue pressuring or chasing.
As much as some people on these forums like to argue the opposite, Killers do also carry some responsibility for their own play. If you faceplant THIS HARD into a perk that is specifically designed to counter only this exact scenario, you deserve a five second stun. Hell, you deserve a ten second stun with how terribly you misplayed that scene. I once had a 2E from falling for a DS bait and I had no one to blame but myself, and since then, I've had DS trigger against me literally never, and that's not for lack of trying by some survivors.
Probably the only other perk that is quite as tragically dependent on the killer's compliance is Power Struggle, and that thing's on a zero percent pickrate for a very good reason.
Even with NOED complained about so much, people still refuse to break totems because they just want to do gens and escape.
Breaking totems is statistically a really bad counter to NOED.
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Because the game heavily favours 'toxicity'.
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@ermsy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3024643#Comment_3024643
people ran enduring back then specifically for ds because taking the stun was not worth taking. and I doubt you could find any posts from back then complaining about the stun duration pre-buff. also the 3 second stun is enough for head on so logically it should be enough ds. even after the buff to 5 seconds, enduring would bring it below 3 seconds and it was still enough back then.
Head-on isn't really comparable to DS. DS's purpose it to make the killer stop chasing someone who was just unhooked. Head-on is to interrupt the killer when they're chasing someone else, and possibly make them change target.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3024543#Comment_3024543
Depending on where the survivor gets downed. It can start a complete new chase. Another 30+ seconds of chase make a huge difference. That could mean enough time to repair the last gen, or reach said survivor for a body block.
The killer doesn't lose much time to a DS bodyblock, because it's just the hit cooldown. Yes, if that three second delay is enough for the actual target to reach a new loop, that can make a difference, but that is garbage levels of situational, and it still lays out another survivor for a minute, leaving them unable to contribute.
Hit cooldown's also been reduced, so that nerfs the only use for the perk that doesn't rely on full killer cooperation.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3023638#Comment_3023638
DS is not a strong perk?
Yeah, this totally explains why it was meta... even after several "nerfs".
Outside of end-game, it won't fire against a competent killer. It won't do anything for you. The killer will just chase the other person or slug you out. It doesn't save you and your team any time.
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@Chewy102 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3022861#Comment_3022861
DS has always been a low value perk. What the ######### are you talking about?
Ever since DS came out it has solidified itself into Survivor meta and it's simple existence has also forced Killers to 2nd guess any action they take when dealing with a recently unhooked Survivor. Even today a Killer HAS to play around the idea of every single Survivor having DS if they do so or not.
How the hell is that considered a "low value" perk?
Because the 'playing around it' part is simply not pressing spacebar. DS, outside of end-game, doesn't work against any killer that's been hit by DS once. It is the most avoidable perk in the game, with a zero effort counterplay.
Though I should correct one thing: DS has been low value since the nerf that made it disable on conspicuous actions. Before that, it was busted.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3023461#Comment_3023461
Which justifies, that they now toogle it down to 3 seconds again.
It doesn't. DS is not a strong perk, since it requires active cooperation from the killer which can't be forced outside of the post 5th gen situation. That's getting addressed (Though poorly), so DS is in a considerably worse state than it was when it was buffed to 5 seconds. But now it's focused much more tightly on just punishing an early tunnelling killer, but then the punishment got cut by 40%.
It was already bad, now it got a fair nerf and should've gotten a fair buff to compensate. Instead it got a second nerf, and is now basically trash tier, even if OTR didn't get reworked into a more broken version of current DS.