DBDVulture
DBDVulture
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@Audiophile said:
Just curious as to who will go on record as saying the game is survivor sided at this point. You can feel free to distinguish between vs solo or swf.
Game is still SWF sided. Many of the maps are still favoring survivors. Most of the M1 killers are still not worth playing.
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@Deathstroke said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3076630#Comment_3076630
Ds should be 10s stun to make tunneling bad stragedy and that should be basekit.
I really hope you are not serious. This is a team game. The last time I tunneled someone in a SWF they got everyone to come to the hook for stage three. Everyone knew that they needed to keep that person alive.
DS is a chance to let an ally save you.
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@KayTwoAyy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3082947#Comment_3082947
You and two survivors can play perfectly and have a potato that throws the game. That totally sucks - but this is a match making problem.
I would equally consider this a design problem. There is a limit to the accuracy of match-making, when trying to find a compromise with queue times. Therefore, the game itself should be designed with the understanding that every lobby will contain a varying degree of skill and experience.
The skill-gap needn't been an issue, however, if DBD was designed without this moral quandry that it's been imposing upon killers.
It should not be the responsibility of the killer to facilitate a fun an exciting match--rather the means in which they go about achieving their goals should naturally be fun, exciting, tense, etc. In so much that the less-skilled player may experience frustration and humility, while the experienced survivors are presented an opportunity to play the hero (or anti-hero). All the while, the killer can play the role of the big scary unstoppable force from beginning to end.
But alas, here I am, asking killers to recognize when they've met their win condition, and to stop beating a dead horse.
I just had a game on one of the largest maps where I hooked someone next to the last 4 gens. Explain to me why I should leave "my first hook".
A good SWF can still slam the generators. I got either two or three hooks before the gens were completed but I also had to wait about 5 minutes for the match to start.
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@KayTwoAyy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3080654#Comment_3080654
It is a false equivalence.
When survivors complete their objective as fast as possible, the killer still has agency in the trial and the ability to interact with the survivors. When the killer completes their objective as fast as possible, the survivor(s) lose agency and their ability to interact with the killer.
In the former example, the opposing side loses nothing. In the latter example, the opposing side loses their ability to play the game.
Your argument is comparing apples and oranges.
Your math is also incorrect.
First Chase: 1 survivor in chase & 3 survivors on gens.
Second Chase: 1 survivor in chase, 1 survivor on hook, 1 rescuing/healing, & 1 survivor on a generator.
After First Sacrifice: 1 survivor in chase, 1 survivor on hook, 1 rescuing/healing
After your first chase, unless you are unable to down survivors as fast as they are being saved & healed, the survivors' ability to advance their objective is reduced to a third of what it was during your first chase. As soon as you sacrifice one survivor, the survivor's ability to advance their objective is effectively removed.
And when you can easily remove a single survivor from the game it begs the question "why play the game at all?"
What kind of person do you need to be to feel accomplishment in something so mathmatically unimpressive? Or are their other motivating factors? Because you're not beating 4 survivors, you're beating 1 survivor, and the remaining 3 just lose by default. A game intended to be played by 5 people is now suddenly reduced to a 1v1 (in which one side is designed to catch the other), and you've single-handedly ruined the experience for all (but yourself, presumably).
It is selfish behavior, if nothing else.
This game definitely has a "get good" component. You have to learn how killer powers modify their ability to chase. You and two survivors can play perfectly and have a potato that throws the game. That totally sucks - but this is a match making problem.
Several of the killers have a "build up" mechanic where they get stronger over time. But every map starts in "perfect" condition with all the pallets intact. If you as a survivor are not able to make the first chase last one generator then you are doing something wrong. But it also matters how many resources you use up in a chase.
Yesterday I was playing infinite T3 MM and a Bill let me get all of his juice very quickly. I hit him and then chased him for the duration of my corrupt. I chose not to down him quickly because he was kind enough to throw every pallet on one side of the map. It was a good game for me and a horrible one for my opponents because of that Bill's actions. They got about 2.5 gens done that chase but Bill made a nearly"untouchable" 4 gen setup.
@Nikatara69 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3080515#Comment_3080515
That is the moment what scares the most. And usually they are worst and toxic killers on top. Seems no one cares, and this games regreet toxic killers and support cry baby killers. This game is not fun any more.
It sucks that the game design forces killers to tunnel to compete with the survivor's objective unless the survivors are much lower in skill than the killer (at which point he can go for hooks).
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3079871#Comment_3079871
You walnut, it is directed at BHVR why else would I waste my time on these forums? to talk to you? lmfao
Killers frequently use the talking point that second chance perks are OP and unskilled and unhealthy for the game when survivors use them, but somehow when killers use second chance perks its not? So they lead bhvr to "shaking up the meta" for survivors only. Its hypocrisy.
Killer's dont have second chance perks. There isn't a perk to undo an unbreakalble.
There isn't a sprint burst.
They have a very limited pool of perks to detect, help in chase, slow gens or general utility.
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@GannTM said:
Yeah I don’t really see the fun killers have in tunneling one survivor out at 5 gens. I’m not judging, I just don’t understand why they do it because it’s not fun for anyone.
Anyway, my day’s been ok, just long. Can’t wait to get home, get on DBD, and play as the love of my life. How’s your day?
"Yeah I don’t really see the fun killers have in tunneling one survivor out at 5 gens. I’m not judging, I just don’t understand why they do it because it’s not fun for anyone."
When was the last time as a survivor you got all the gens to 20% before you got any generator to 40%? That happened exactly never because it's not efficient. If I hook Jake three times then generator repair potential has been reduced by 25% forever. That's why you get out one player.
Also with one player dead the dynamic changes. If I have one dead, one hooked and I am chasing one survivor then there is one person who must go for the save. This forces a loop where the survivors just keep playing whack a mole with their rescues/heals instead of cranking out generators.
I'll stop proxy camping/tunneling the day that generators don't get permanently eliminated.
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@Lecruidant said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3079858#Comment_3079858
First off, then dont' lose chase. Second. Self Care wasn't a "High Speed" healing perk for yourself. It literally was double the amount of time somebody else healing was. Your logic is flawed. If you're going to complain about SC you might as well complain and whine about green med kits as well
"Self Care wasn't a "High Speed" healing perk"
Let's consider time as a function of action economy; it is important to to note that the survivors have 4x the time economy of the killer.. One person at 32 seconds is the same as two people at 16 seconds. Either action makes you lose 32 seconds not spent on generators.
Up until great checks got changed (they were 2.4 seconds per and were reduced to 1.2 each last year) you could often get 2-3 great checks and heal at near the same speed as someone healing you. The increased frequency of skill checks was of course triggered by Spine Chill - RIP.
If someone needs to run for 10 seconds over to you to heal then the 16 second heal just became a 26 second heal. Wow look at how the efficiency changes. However if you both teleported to the same location then travel time becomes zero.
Also if you had Iron Will you were at zero risk for the killer to hear you healing from super far away. If you had spine Chill there was zero chance a killer could sneak up on you with Nurse's Calling.
So while on a surface level, IW, SC and SC looked like a noob build it was incredibly synergistic.
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Healing indefinitely at high speed made getting hit nearly irrelevant.
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I don't bring gen defense perks anymore because they are all trash now. Overall I had more gen defense before the patch. Yes gens are longer but they were easier to defend last patch with the superior gen defense perks.
I still tunnel just as hard every game. If you want tunneling to stop you need to give me a reason not to do it or make the survivor objective slower (SWF were not really affected by this patch). Alternatively you need to completely change the game ; an example would be letting killers turn off competed gens.
As long as survivors eliminate generators the killer's goal will be to eliminate the survivors one by one.
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@MrMori said:
If set A wins I'm uninstalling.
I like the Set A costumes though.
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@Shirtless_Myers said:
Since the update has released, I've yet to lose a single match as the killer. For the past two days, I've only had a single match end in a 2k at worse. This patch feels too tilted toward killers. I expect some nerfs in the coming months or buffs to survivors.
Once they took off the matchmaking blood point incentives for survivors, my queues jumped fairly drastically to 5-10 minute wait times.
Queue times are pretty long because I think most of the survivors who were at higher MMR have been "deranked" quite a bit.
I have lost only on farm maps/crow map/RPD - but I mean come on those maps are too big. Every time was also vs a 3 or 4 man swf.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3076008#Comment_3076008
You did very good against baby Blight. Congrats.
He wasnt a baby. He knew how to hug tech.
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Zombies get stuck on this part of the map Every single game. Survivors know the zombies get stuck here so they lure them to this spot
20220720202931_1.jpg -
@foxsansbox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3076638#Comment_3076638
My thought is to go full alphachad and drop the exhaustion now that the best option is gone and just 4 perk slammajam into one objective.
Iron Will, Alert, urban evasion, quick and quiet
What killer in their right mind would ever anticipate FOUR stealth perks? The brilliance is how madlad it is.
Urban Evasion is not necessary - the only time it really is helpful is against Hag. If you insist on Q&Q then put in dance with me. The two together work but one by itself? Nope.
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@Nathan13 said:
I like this perk a lot, it can help me out by not getting tunneled early out of the match.
It seems ok when you consider that a killer can counter this perk if they use STBFL.
Also it means you aren't doing anything productive if you are staying protected.
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I removed Sprint and Spine Chill from my build but I kept Iron Will and Self Care (slipped in botany).
Iron Will is still very good in chases and makes stealth a possibility. Without it the killer literally has to decide that chasing someone else is more important.
Obviously SB+IW was better than new IW but that's not an option. The Exhaustion perks sometimes are a "crutch" where people use them to create distance when they don't know how to make distance through good use of terrain and mind games.
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@Emeal said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3076208#Comment_3076208
Nobody should be punished for playing the game, tunneling is a legitimate strategy, perks are not designed to help you with everything.
One might ask, Why was the Killer not successfully occupied? Why were you unhooked within reach of the Killer?
Old DS was too much a get out of jail free card, perks are not meant to ensure your survival, your teammates are.
This right here is your answer.
DS is enough of a window so that a team member can come to body block. Or they can get in range for a flashlight save. Or maybe they can sabotage the nearest hook.
Survivors were used to 1v1 the killer as if they were taking their dog for a walk; those days are over.
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@BubbleBuster said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3076324#Comment_3076324
nurse and blight need nerfs, that is out of the question
again, if that happens, the team messed up.
it is very hard for huntress to do that + she literally just cant do it if survivors dont mess up
not an issue
No it's more of a the player is very skilled and has a full aura reading build.
Huntress Blight and Nurse would be more fair with these changes.
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@lauraa said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3076343#Comment_3076343
I dont careabout Exhaust, I only cared about the 100%. The 75 isstill powerful, but Icant do the same Special Forces shenanigans I could at 100%
Try ducking. What people wanted was to go back to no noises in chase- that's over.
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@vanhoya said:
Since the patch dropped i have been running a good number of perks that make me difficult to find: Distortion, off the record, kindred (to get a heads up on the killer incase they come in my direction after hook), lightweight, iron will (even after the patch), lucky break, etc etc.
I propose that survivors that are "hard to find" can now, on average, waste more killer time than looping. What are your thoughts and opinions?
Small note: I do run Lithe in case I end up in chase.
Once upon a time in 2016 stealth was the best option too. Back then however the game had mist.
@lauraa said:
Stealth is a ton of fun and I'm glad it's stillviable with Iron Will being dead.
The job of a chased survivor is to BUY TIME. It just so happens that the way I enjoy doing so is by aggressively power walking with Fixated Haha
when a God Nurse/Blight who downs survs in 10 seconds gets absolutely stumped by Going Dark, to me that is ecstasy.
Iron Will is hardly dead. You just cant use it with an exhaustion perk. Old IW with sprint was better but thats not an option. I do better with IW and no sprint than I do with sprint and no IW.
But then again I am an OG stealther.
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@GrimReaperJr1232 said:
Okay. A couple things.
1. Nurse and Blight both fatigue after a power hit. Blight for 3 seconds (unchanged in patch), and Nurse for 3 ~ 4 seconds (depending on number of blinks used) AND THEN recharge her blinks when she's slower than survivors. Both of which are longer than the default weapon wipe (2.7 seconds)
"Is it good for balance that a killer can damage three or four survivors in a 10-12 second period without using a chainsaw? No it really isn't"
2) Unless the killer is Legion, that should not even be physically possible. If that happened, the team as a whole has screwed up.
"Huntress for example is very overtuned when you can be 5 feet from a survivor and hit them with a hatchet and hit them again literally 2 seconds later. The Huntress main CoconutRTS said huntress would still be a strong killer with this change."
3) I hate Huntress but I'm defending her here. You eat a 2 second cooldown (without add-ons, granted] and then AT MINIMUM a 1.5 second windup, but realistically a 3 second one to fully charge your hatchet. That's 3.5 - 5 seconds to run away and/or dodge.
If you mean melee hatchets, then you let a 4.4 killer get within melee range. You screwed up. Period.
Nurse and Blight move so fast that the extra cooldown time would make them "about the same" as a regular move speed killer's cooldown.
Go watch CoconutRTS play huntress. He will often hit 3 people in a 10 second time period (if you count the time starting at the first hit). Sorry but that can't be fun to play against. And by his own admission he could play huntress with that change.
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@Marigoria said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3076008#Comment_3076008
Did you record it? I'd love to see you loop a blight that long without exhaustion perks, must have been a really good chase
No I didn't because I only record games where I think someone will cheat or someone is cheating. The game was on Haddonfield and he didn't have Bamboozle. He wanted to use his power to hit me but I know how he would have to bounce in the houses so that made his power mostly pointless except to get the first hit.
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@Alcuin said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3076008#Comment_3076008
I run Kindred, Bond, Open Handed, and Sprint Burst. Didn't say I suck, I'm saying that killer is not hard. 300 consecutive wins attest to that. As far as the Blight you looped for 2.5 gens, maybe he sucked.
No I'm a killer main so I know the limits of his power set. Killers playing survivor usually have a huge advantage compared to just survivor mains unless they have 9k hrs.
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@zumer said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3076021#Comment_3076021
I never relied on perks. first they made less pallets, then they removed the "New Moon Bouquet", then they removed the fog and brightened the maps, then they made destructible walls, now they increased the rate of pallet and wall breakage, and strengthened "Bloodlust". It's not a soloq game anymore. I don't want to play this game anymore.
The game I mentioned looping blight was a solo game friend. The only people I know that still play DBD are friends I made in 2022. Everyone else on my steam friend list moved on a long time ago. To be fair I have taken long breaks myself.
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@zumer said:
A soloq survivor has 45 deaths out of 50 matches. Thanks BHVR. Play your game yourself. I delete the game.
I looped a blight for 2.5 gens in my first game after patch. Gen was completed before I got rescued.
Maybe you were depending on crutch perks instead of developing true skill?
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@Alcuin said:
The killer has to actively self-sabotage in order to not 4k now. Killer is easy mode. Get aboard the SupaAlf train, onward to 300 straight 4ks. lol
My first game as survivor I looped a Blight for 2.5 gens with no exhaustion perk. The third gen got completed before I was rescued. I owe my ability to loop well entirely for chasing very top notch survivors for thousands of hours.
If you were "good" before this patch and "suck" now then that is a clear example of being carried by perks. I miss my Spine Chill but I am adapting.
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@CluelessWanderer said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3075279#Comment_3075279
First of all, it's ridiculous to think Solo Q was "cruising along" because of ONE perk. A perk I, and many Solo Q survivors never even used.
Anyone with 2 brain cells to rub together, who is also honest, will acknowledge that Solo Q survivors have been entirely shafted and left behind with this update. The Devs are balancing for Killers vs SWF.
I'll be the first survivor main to admit as always, that SWF was completely unfair to Killers.
Making Solo Q even more miserable, while only slightly inconveniencing SWF wasn't the epic balance BHVR advertises.
You need to realize it wasn't just one perk that let to survivor handholding.
As innocent as it might seem Spine Chill was in part to blame. So were perks like Iron Will, DH, DS and many of the "Crutch perks" that got obliterated.
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@RichardCarter said:
I complained about how miserable the game has felt yesterday and the general consensus was "just keep trying, it'll eventually get better" and... Well, yeah.
The old Survivor meta was essentially having their hands held at being able to extend chases and having multiple chances to escape the trial, while Killer (unless against boosted Survivors and the Killer is just really good) needed to stay afloat most of the time by bringing perks to slow down generator progress. I personally tried to avoid multiple second chance perks (most of my Survivor builds were really built around their teachables; Dwight my main was built around what challenges I had to do.) Essentially, the meta was for Survivors to reduce mistakes and stay alive while the meta for Killers was to prevent progression. Which y'know, makes sense imo, that's their ultimate goal.
Unfortunately as this update has shown, a good chunk of Survivor players have used and relied on this meta so much that they generally stopped caring about looping or hiding properly and just used the perks as a scapegoat. Now that this meta is gone, Survivors are struggling and that's totally fine. It isn't just the perks of course, the whole baseline changes of Killer has made Survivor gameplay tremendously more difficult than it was before. Survivors no longer have their hands held.
Are the Killers hands being held? I don't know. Right now Killers have their meta seemingly planned out; I think a general meta consensus is Save the Best for Last, Brutal Strength, Overcharge and Call of Brine. I've seen that combination in approx. 40% of my games, the others were slight variations with Call of Brine and/or Overcharge being in 80% of my games.
There is no Survivor meta yet. No one knows what is their best chance of survival and no one has given me a good consensus on what is the meta for Survivors. A bunch of Endurance/Unhooking/Speed Boost perks? Sprint Burst and Overcome seems popular now.
So I still feel valid in believing that Survivor has become tremendously difficult as of right now, but I think if we just get accustomed to the changes, Survivors can manage to figure a way to make their games just a bit better.
What do you guys think?
"The old Survivor meta was essentially having their hands held at being able to extend chases and having multiple chances to escape the trial, while Killer (unless against boosted Survivors and the Killer is just really good) needed to stay afloat most of the time by bringing perks to slow down generator progress"
"a good chunk of Survivor players have used and relied on this meta so much that they generally stopped caring about looping or hiding properly and just used the perks as a scapegoat. Now that this meta is gone, Survivors are struggling and that's totally fine"
All of this is very true. Survivors are upset that their easy wins that took all options away from the killer are gone. They cant loop a super long time with DH - good. They can't DS the killer on their first hook at the end game collapse - good.
"So I still feel valid in believing that Survivor has become tremendously difficult as of right now"
In one sense if you played killer at high MMR you were training to run a marathon up hill. Meanwhile the survivors were being carried by meta perks/broken mechanics were on top of the mountain riding down the opposite side in a cart with wheels. But suddenly the patch came along and made all those carts come to a full stop; in the process it made the survivors start rolling and scraping down that same hill.
Survivors who understand the game mechanics well can still loop. Those who were having their hand held to victory are floundering.
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I hate that it took 6 years for killers to get a patch that brought balance to the game. The last time we had this was the 1.02 patch that nerfed Self Care and Sprint Burst among other things.
They actually did something right for once. DBD might no longer be a scooby doo style montage chase game.
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@Sadako_Best_Girl said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3073504#Comment_3073504
Yeah, it causes a tiny slowdown within the speed boost. It lasts like a quarter of a second and slows them down 20%, which only makes them lose like 1 meter of distance. Not much but it can be really gamechanging in some niche scenarios.
What you mean is : whipping a survivor gives a lesser speed boost compared to when you attack them normally.
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I just want to say as someone who remembers infinite loop nonsense back in 2016 - this patch is wonderful. I thought this patch would be a huge buff to survivor but in reality it has brought balance to the game. Much like the Jedi in star wars the survivor crowd was not ready to accept that "balancing the game" meant making it more fair to killer.
@VcatoV86 said:
How are SWF thr majority? I have been playing killer for years and rarely encounter it
From the devs statistics years ago we learned that 75% of all games include SWF. About 50% of people are in a 2 man swf and something like 8% of players are in a 4 man SWF so the remainder is for 3 man games.
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@Sadako_Best_Girl said:
No, it's only for basic attacks. Shred and Nemesus whip are not affected, however, you can consider them kind of buffed given how the speed boost after hit was reduced to 1.8 seconds. It is REALLY noticeable, especially with Nemesis' whip causing a tiny slowdown.
I played ~500 games of Nemesis during the cake event. I can tell you that the whip does not cause a tiny slowdown. It gives survivors a mini speed boost. The funny thing is that most people get outpositioned on a loop when you whip them. Since it is not a full speed boost many people go right back to the loop (most of which just get whipped again in round two). What makes being whipped hard for people to manage is that quite often they do not expect to be whipped when you "sling" your whip around corners/pallets.
Just for the sake of clarity - imagine if whipping a survivor made them move at 3.8m/s for 1/4th of a second. That would be a slowdown.
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@solidhex said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3073361#Comment_3073361
Sry but if killers need 20 minutes games and 2 minutes chases every time to get a 4k then this is not skill. Many killers did fine before. Either give us strong anti camp and tunnel mechanics so the killer is FORCED to go for 12 hooks or revert some of the changes, especially the training wheels like bloodlust or the forever m1 perks
"Many killers did fine before."
If you want to define Many as Nurse and Blight then sure - those two killers did fine but they are insanely more powerful than the rest of the killer cast.
@feng_min_main2003 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3073391#Comment_3073391
The game was never heavily survivor sided, the fact you call the game slightly killer sided shows you don't know what you're talking about.
"The game was never heavily survivor sided"
You want to check your facts? Let's take a poll from all of the largest big name DBD streamers who play both killer and Survivor well. Know what they will ALL tell you? DBD is survivor sided and always has been (/insert astronaut meme here). I'm guessing you didn't play in 2016 when there were infinite loops? Did you know that there are old clips on youtube where killers were chasing a sole survivor around the cow tree for 5-20 minutes?
@Dead_Harder said:
Game went from 2nd chance perk fest to skill based you mean <3
Before today survivor skill was based on how well your SWF communicated information, how well you could loop pallets and how much time you could get in a chase by using DH to make it to a new pallet.
Some people play solo so they can't use SWF info. Some people never learned how to "read" how to gain frames on a killer during chase. Some people only knew how to press "E" to make chases take 20-60 extra seconds when they made a mistake.
I had a lot of games today that were 4k but I had one game that was a 1k. To be fair it was the most unfair map in the game and the spawns were all separated which is the literal worst case scenario. Also they were a very efficient SWF team.
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As someone who used Spine Chill in 99% of my games since 2016 I have to say : nope.
You always knew what the killer was doing based on your light activity. Most of the time I never looked behind me in chases because SC was looking for me.
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@TheArbiter said:
Well then infectious fright must be nerfed to the ground because it's god tier on Oni. Seriously just because a perk is better on one killer vs the other doesn't mean it needs a nerf.
The only perk I think that might need adjusting on a killer to killer basis is Nurse. Blinking into a starstruck is kinda BS.
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@Kira4Evr said:
Okay, let's pretend to be adults here. I'm one of those stinkies that doesn't think Nurse needs a nerf. But since there are some people that want her to get one, I decided to try to come up with something because I find it really enjoyable.
So to all of you who want her to get nerfed. Would this be enough?
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/FL2M27P8DR4S/screenshot-37.png
Nurse needs to lose the ability to "blink cancel" by blinking into the floor when she is on "ground level". Attempting to blink cancel should make the nurse just zoom off for a full blink with no down collision.
This would make her not be able to pre-emt survivors and punish for holding a blink too long. It would prevent her from being able to hold survivors in a catch 22 state where they lose if they run and lose if they dont run.
All killers except Tarpper/Trickster should have built in "damage delay" so that when you damage a survivor you have an animation that plays. Namely this would affect Huntress and Nurse. Hitting a survivor makes you clean your weapon or whatever for 3 seconds. Huntress could maybe juggle her hatchet for a moment. Nurse would be required to wipe her weapon and then go into fatigue.
Change these two things and remove her busted addons.... and then we nerf SWF into oblivion and reduce all maps to 9000m².
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@Archvile said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3068303#Comment_3068303
The way you begin this argument is disingenuous. The three survivors not on a hook could have left and escaped with their points. That's a "tournament win attitude" that a lot of SWF people play by. If as True suggests we start looking at when hooks happen it will show that most of the "action" happens after the survivor objective is usually complete. This makes for one sided gameplay for the survivors.
I'm not sure what you mean. It seems we agree to some extent? Most of the action happened after the gens were completed because the survivors decided to not just leave the game and have some interaction instead. This isn't a situation where survivors try to turn a 2k into a 1k and get punished for it, it's just them being overly altruistic towards their friend because both them and True knew the game was, for all intents and purposes, over. It's the same thing when killers chase a survivor, down them, and then still carry them to the hatch. It means "I won, you lost, we both know it, so there's no point in not giving you five thousand bloodpoints."
Repair speeds on Coal Tower and Mother's Dwelling are extremely different. Know why? If you try to shift+w on Coal Tower you have a very high chance of running into someone on a generator in about 15 seconds. The same thing won't happen on Mother's Dwelling in most cases until you've been running for about 60 seconds due to the size difference. A map like Coal Tower has a chance to be fair to all killers because you can potentially pressure two people during one chase. All the old maps used to work like this but were eventually resized so it just stopped happening.
That's my point. Even though the gen speeds may be mathematically the same, in the sense that a survivor that spends one second on a generator will always complete one charge, the effective gen speeds are different because of the way the map is designed. It's nice that you found an additional way in which this is true but, again, we're not disagreeing.
The funny thing about Mother's Dwelling is that it makes the faster killers better because they can zoom around the map and survivors have to "walk" by comparison. Hooking someone in a far corner on a large map takes a large portion of the hook timer just to get close. The only thing that might make large maps fair would be to reduce the pallet counts for large maps. Maps larger than Coal Tower could have fewer tiles and more dead zones so that you have far fewer pallets per map surface area. That could potentially be an interesting way to make large maps fair to all killers.
I don't doubt this would make the map more bearable, but I'd prefer if they just gave up on making huge maps. A gigantic map with no pallets may be less stacked against the killer, but who would want to play on that? It would just more of a press-shift-and-w simulator. All the fun gameplay happens at loops and pallets. I'd rather have maps that have a decent amount of pallets but that are also small enough that throwing them down is something of a commitment from the survivor's part, and you can't just prethrow every single pallet and still complete five gens with more to spare.
Glad to know we are mostly in agreement- but at first I totally read that a different way.
I have been asking for a long time for all DBD maps to be 9000m² or smaller.
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3067415#Comment_3067415
The survivors were in control of that match for its entirety due to their efficiency. Even if he left the hook and pressured with that meme indoor map build they still would have been able to get all the gens done nearly as quick, clown can't pressure 4 survivors at once. If ones on a hook and ones trying to unhook or being chased, there are still 2 on gens. That said, their greed 100% caused the 4k, which is why a lot of people don't like using kills as a metric for how the match went. Games like this completely pollute the data, and many SWFs die by being overly altruistic instead of because they got outplayed the whole match.
He's discussed this a lot, but he feels that killers have less time/chances to adapt to survivor playstyles than vice versa. Its harder to go for hooks and then switch to lame tactics if you're falling behind, because survivor agency in matches is front loaded. Their efficiency and strength is highest at the start of the match, and shifts toward favoring the killer with each interaction (downs/hooks/pallets used/doors kicked/etc.) When he's using user submitted builds he generally tries to adapt them to win since people are literally paying him to do so.
"That said, their greed 100% caused the 4k, which is why a lot of people don't like using kills as a metric for how the match went. Games like this completely pollute the data, and many SWFs die by being overly altruistic instead of because they got outplayed the whole match."
This is what any rational minded person will see when they watch this video. The survivors died as a result of misplays and Hubris. I doubt very many people if they had played this match and had it go exactly the same way would have had fun ( 1 chase, camp, tunnel, pressure, game over).
"Acting as if he didn't lose the match is extremely disingenuous. The survivors threw the game in order to try and get some fun out of an otherwise dull match, or because they felt bad about feeling the poor camped survivor behind. True would have lost the game had it been a more goal-oriented group of people."
The way you begin this argument is disingenuous. The three survivors not on a hook could have left and escaped with their points. That's a "tournament win attitude" that a lot of SWF people play by. If as True suggests we start looking at when hooks happen it will show that most of the "action" happens after the survivor objective is usually complete. This makes for one sided gameplay for the survivors.
"even if he didn't camp, I don't see the match going much differently"
Clown without the pinky finger is weak and that map is complete garbage for any killer to play besides Nurse/Blight. I think you're right and that's why he camped to go for an expected "safety" of potentially two kills.
"The thing is, talking about "gen speeds" is not really that useful in itself, because repair speeds may be the same on Coal Tower map and Mother's Dwelling from a purely mathematical standpoint, but that doesn't matter when it takes twice times as long to reach a gen on the latter than it does on the former. No amount of generator charges that feels fair on Mother's Dwelling is going to be also fair on other maps, because the problem isn't the gens, it's the design."
Repair speeds on Coal Tower and Mother's Dwelling are extremely different. Know why? If you try to shift+w on Coal Tower you have a very high chance of running into someone on a generator in about 15 seconds. The same thing won't happen on Mother's Dwelling in most cases until you've been running for about 60 seconds due to the size difference. A map like Coal Tower has a chance to be fair to all killers because you can potentially pressure two people during one chase. All the old maps used to work like this but were eventually resized so it just stopped happening.
The funny thing about Mother's Dwelling is that it makes the faster killers better because they can zoom around the map and survivors have to "walk" by comparison. Hooking someone in a far corner on a large map takes a large portion of the hook timer just to get close. The only thing that might make large maps fair would be to reduce the pallet counts for large maps. Maps larger than Coal Tower could have fewer tiles and more dead zones so that you have far fewer pallets per map surface area. That could potentially be an interesting way to make large maps fair to all killers.
The game is an outlier in that it is a small map but has 25 pallets. If we changed 80% of those pallets to be unsafe (translation : fair pallets that can be mindgamed - in other words throwing the pallet does not create a "mini infinite" that the killer has to break to resume chase) then it would be a much more fair map to all killers.
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@HectorBrando said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3067254#Comment_3067254
Imagine if the Survivors had shotguns and could get rid of the Killer...
Developers said they want more kills, thats why they are giving a huge chunk of base buffs to Killers and massive nerf to almost every perk except OTR and Lightweight and if the Survivors are doing this and getting away its because you didnt earn the kill period, down them before they get that far into the opened Exit Gates and you wont have this problem, better yet, down them before the gates get powered.
The fact Killers cant interact with stuff the Survivors are already interacting with is a game mechanic that has been since forever its not an exploit and probably intended.
"Developers said they want more kills, thats why they are giving a huge chunk of base buffs to Killers and massive nerf to almost every perk except OTR and Lightweight"
The problem with this thought is that the Gen defense perks are absolutely destroyed. Kicking a generator doesn't make any sense unless you have some "end game" scenario where one person is dead, one person is down/hooked and you are chasing another survivor. At that point everyone is "busy" and no one can take a moment to kick a generator. The only problem is that base kit regression is 1/4th of survivor repair - which is mathematically backwards.
If we look back at patch : 1.5.3 we can see that hook timers were increased to make it take 30 seconds longer for survivors to die on a hook. This means the killer objective was increased by 15 seconds for each hook state. As a result survivors started using this time to focus on generators above rescuing other survivors.
If you consider a game is supposed to be 2 kills (with no tunneling) that works out to everyone hooked at least once and two survivors hooked three times. That's a minimum of +90 seconds for survivors to complete their objectives (120 seconds in a worst case scenario). Killers are getting +50 seconds back this patch but overall chases are longer than generators take to complete (especially early game when all the pallets are up and killers need to "build up".
How long does a chase take? Generally speaking you have 20 seconds to walk over to start a chase. If they were AFK until being attacked it would take you 20 seconds to chase after them in a straight line using no pallets or map features. The second hit to down them with your weapon will require another 3 seconds (already factored into the other chase). Then you need anywhere between 10-15 seconds to pick them up and hook them. Let's add all that up : 20+20+3+10= 53 seconds. That leaves you with 17 seconds to travel across map and pop a generator before it gets completed. See the problem?
Depending on the survivor's skill and the number of available pallets they can stall each hit phase by anywhere between 10-30 seconds. If the time now becomes 20+20+3+10+20 that comes out to 73 seconds. Now you have 7 seconds to walk across map and stop two survivors simultaneously on different generators.
The devs have an expectation that the game favors the killer once the gens are all powered. That might have been the case in the early days where NOED wasn't a totem and lasted forever with a 9% speed boost.
At the very least we could have seen a change to the bloodwarden perk where that perk specifically got changed to include a change to the game where crawling survivors cannot leave the trial.
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@deKlaw_04 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/334608/with-the-new-meta-will-you-continue-to-swf
Swf is what makes this game fun on the survivor side so yes.
It's also what breaks the game for every killer except Nurse/Blight.
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@GannTM said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3067245#Comment_3067245
You realize my comment was a joke right?
Yes but I was explaining why she got changed. The devs are hyper focused on the low/middle rank player experience.
@TAG said:
Not saying yes or no with regards to whether this will be problematic down the line, but with all due respect, this was a very unconvincing video. This guy got three Traps on by the time the first gen popped (technically two, but the third was put on very shortly after the first gen went) on THE GAME. With one person getting a free hit from being AFK and then going down while wasting a pallet in the process. One person tried to hide despite having a blood trail leading right to them. Good Survivors these were not.
Otz is quite often guilty of "cherry picking" for his videos. It makes sense as he runs an entertainment channel. From what I seen as a comparison - Otz often plays against "the bottom of the barrel" compared to many other streamers. Does he have a lot of skill? Yes. But more so than any other killer main DBD channel he has people that look as if they are paid actors who were hired to fail. The sad part is that it's just some random person playing the game the best they can.
If you're not playing Nurse/Blight and you play against a SWF it's pretty much hook 1 person lose 2 generators. You can only avoid this pattern if you hook someone right next to a generator that was being worked and you use Pop/Pain res on it. Then you patrol a bit and tunnel the person when they get unhooked. Now there are 2 generators showing but in reality it's more like one and a half. You catch the same person kill them and one generator is left. You have about one and a half more chases (or one long chase) before the last gen is finished.
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@HectorBrando said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3066710#Comment_3066710
Is the Survivor hooked and in the dying animation when you down them at the Exit Gates? If no then the Killer has not earned a kill yet.
I can argue the Survivor has earned an escape since he was downed at the Exit Gates opened after all gens were completed but since he isnt in the escaping animation he hasnt earned anything yet.
Imagine if the developers decided that Survivors can no longer crawl out of the gate. That would fix the problem.
The reality is that there are already too many things survivors can do to deny kills. Looking at the developer notes they say the game needs more kills not fewer kills. Therefore maybe we should "fix" heal tech by making it so survivors can't leave the trial if they are on the ground - except through the hatch.
To make things fair we should allow survivors to open a hatch if they carrying a non broken key while crawling.
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@GannTM said:
But she was OP? She needed a nerf.
It is important to remember that killers usually get nerfed because of how they make low/middle tier players feel oppressed. Things like AFK pig were very oppressive to the low/middle tier crowd. Wraith had the same problem when he got his rework and that's why he got nerfed.
The sad part is the devs completely ignore any attempts to balance high tier play. I understand why as it's very clear when you watch them play their own game.
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@fulltonon said:
I'm pretty sure you aren't really on majority side, most isn't THAT good at her.
While this is true - the killers who only play twins are usually incredibly good and will stomp most teams (even really strong SWFs).
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@Tryharder said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3066979#Comment_3066979
Yeah there completely different. Killer have no way to counter a coordinated gen rusher. Perks are just a bandaid for killers and most average casual killers don’t have unlimited blood points to have tier 3 meta perks.
if the killer ends the game in 3 mins because survivors are potato is really nothing to complain about. It is what it is, just a skill issue on you and your team. Survivors have way more ways to stop a killer for killing them .
"Killer have no way to counter a coordinated gen rusher. Perks are just a bandaid for killers"
When one side can finish 4/5 of their objective in under 3 minutes it forces the other side to try and do the same. That means tunneling. Against a SWF it's just gross how quickly you can finish all 5 generators (Coconut lost them in 2:43 in a recent match).
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@Marik1987 said:
Hello devs,
the new patch is coming and I am really looking forward to it. Especially with the Deadhard-Change, the games should become more balanced.
But: With a lot of changes ahead, there are unfortunately even more Nerfs for Freddy coming.
Allow me to explain my sight of things:
Freddy is a killer, which has abilities, when survivors are asleep (and only if they are asleep). Therefore, he has, for example, a lullaby instead of a Terror-Radius.
Perk-Issue
This in mind, you will propably be well aware, that he cant use a lot of perks, because this perks are only available if u have a Terror Radius. For example the new Dissolution, Septic Touch, Coulrophobia, Distressing, Infectious Fright or Starstruck.
This are some "Chase-Perks/Anti-Healing-Perks", who arent usable as The Nightmare.
Whats left is Gen-Protection and Gen-Regression. Well, Gen-Protection like Corrupt Intervention, Deadlock etc. is what he has left (what every killer has by the way, so no speciality), while Gen-Regression like Pop goes the Weasel (with works perfectly with his teleport in combination with Pain Resonance at the moment), Overcharge (what will become useless with a start less than a regular kick) or Hex:Ruin are getting nerfed or even completely unplayable (Hex:Ruin).
So at the end he cannot use a lot a perks by default, his only strengh, which is the Dream Projection, becomes more useless because u cannot combine it with good Gen-Regression-Perks (well, besides Call of Brine for now) and his antiloop is doing nothing at most tiles. Well, u can outplay some tiles with the snares, but for the most part, they cannot help.
Dreamworld
In addition to this problems Ive counted here, he has a major weakness, which is the Dreamworld itself. If u take a look at The Dredge, which is well designed, thanks for that, you will see, that the Dreamworld is, compared to Nightfall, doing almost nothing. I dont want Slowdown-Addons like old Jumping Rope back, dont get me wrong, but what reason should a survivor have to walk to an alarmclock, when Dreamworld is literally doing nothing?
What is the Dreamworld doing? Well, you replace the Terror-Radius with a lullaby and survivors can interact with Dream Snares and Dream Pallets plus you get your Dream Projection a little bit (1-2 seconds at best) faster back. Thats it, unfortunately. So there is no danger and therefore no reason to waste time for waking.
Lets compare this with Nightfall: While Dredge has his antiloop at any time, he can teleport 3 times in a row MUCH faster and has decent addons to reload it a lot faster than Freddy with Nancys Masterpiece or Sketch in their current state.
Addons
Now lets move on and look at his addons. He has one addon, the Red Paint Brush, which gives survivors at least 1 time they actually need to use a clock (at least 1 of them) for staying awake (if they want to). Besides this addon, I think everyone in the community will agree, he has nothing in his addon-pass. Hearing things louder is, sorry, not worth running, inflicting hemmorhage only when several parameters are in place (being asleep AND interact with a trap) or Blindness isnt really good. Besides that, he has 3 4%-Penalty-Addons for failing skill-checks. But: when survivors fail a skill-check, they wake up, if u dont use Red Paint Brush and the addon is doing nothing. In my games, I can say, the survivors trigger the penaly once per game AT MOST.
Last but not least: Fake-Pallets (3 addons)
A fun part of his kit, but I think 1 addon would be more than enough, you dont need to use 3 of them just with different aura-reading. The aura-reading means absolutely nothing, because when(!) they interact, they are in front of you in a chase. I dont have to say, that in higher skilled games, literally no one falls for them anyway.
Conclusion
In my conclusion, Freddy is nothing but a very weak Dredge-Copy (or Dredge is a better version of him), having no power at all when survivors are not asleep, he cant defend clocks or anything, because he cant see their auras (compared to pig for example) and besides that his antiloop is too weak to be a real problem for survivors or being respected at all.
The extremely low pick-rate compared to high kill-rates (january-official-announcement) comes, because you will see Freddys most of the time in low MMR I assume, but u will very rarely see him in higher mmr. I would be wondering if thats not the case what I wrote down here.
Im really begging (yes, Im at this state now) you to rework him once more or at least giving him decent addons. His Dreamworld needs, in my opinion, a look too.
Thanks for your attention!
Freddy had a 4% higher kill rate and got nerfed. Did he deserve what he got? No. The weakening of his snares was way too much in my opinion. They could have just nerfed the teleport timer (making it much longer - and punish teleport "faking").
The Dreamworld is not to debuff survivors but rather just a visual indicator that they are vulnerable to his powers. The rework is somewhat punishing in that using an alarm clock makes you immune to being asleep for 30 seconds.
Freddy is still an "ok" killer. He will however get worse when Tinkerer gets nerfed as that perk absolutely carries him right now.
Overall the dream pallets are dumb and it's worse that you have to use an addon to make your power worse.
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@Ink_Eyes said:
That video just proves that gen speeds are trivial, you can do 5 gens in 3 minutes and the killer can still end up killing the entire team basically meaning that the killer still won the match, not only that but the player also makes a difference, OTZ is a good example, not only he has 50 win streak videos with ''X'' killer with a lot of those matches ending before all the gens are done, he also has the ''going AFK for 30 seconds at the start of the match challenge'' and he still goes on winning streaks despite the fact that that he puts himself at a massive disadvantage.
Other streamers who tried the Afk 30 second challenge got much more robust survivors. Otz had noobs in at least 7 of his games that threw the game very hard. He also forgot to AFK two of the games and didn't bother to replay them. In one of those games he moved on top of a gen being worked on and then went AFK. In another game he was chasing a survivor who was in a corner and then went AFK. That survivor basically didn't have 30 seconds of AFK time - throwing the experiment.
He completed an artist 50 kill streak by getting the last ~20 games during a day when the MMR was turned off. That's not very honest if you ask me.
Gen speeds are only going to get better if you are not using gen defense perks. The only way you can pull that off is by playing Nurse/Blight with very strong addons and other meta perks to speed up chases (starstruck for nurse) or delay the end game with perks like Remember me/No way out.
"That video just proves that gen speeds are trivial"
I think you missed the point. What is the point in trying to defend generators if you lose 4/5 in 2:22? That's just stupid. The video shows the survivor objective is way too fast. If the other three survivors had just left it would have been an easy escape.
If it was just accepted that three survivors would leave the fourth to die then escape rates would soar to new heights.
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@akaTheBARON said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3065291#Comment_3065291
How is this game not going through a lot of big changes? What has this past month of announcements been about then? And what exactly did you want them to do about survivors pre-dropping pallets?
Killer will still not be the power role after the patch - SWF will keep that title.
M1 killers will not be viable.
Bloodlust is still removed when breaking a pallet which means most loops are "safe".
There are too many pallets in too close proximity.
@Seanzu said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3065291#Comment_3065291
and just like survivors can pre drop, killers can camp all game (psst, they don't though so what's your point) I bet in your last 50 matches you haven't played someone dropping pallets as hard as Spooky does in that video because most survivors enjoy trying to mind game and actually play loops, if you're just going to come up with "but look at what x COULD do every game" knowing full well 99% of matches don't go that way then it is pointless conversing with you because you're already determined to play the woe is me killer is too hard yada yada gens too fast yada yada.
"I bet in your last 50 matches you haven't played someone dropping pallets as hard as Spooky does in that video because most survivors enjoy trying to mind game and actually play loops"
Most of the people I play against are way better than Spooky. I occasionally have people try to pre drop pallets against me as Nemesis (probably because someone told them it was a good idea). The problem there is that most "safe" loops are not safe against him. And then as soon as I get T2 a pre-drop literally only gains you about a second or two of distance.
But look at the results of predropping pallets (which we both know to be sub optimal). In every game in that video he leads the killer around for very long chases and the team wins easily. That's exactly the kind of safe looping that makes the game one sided.
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How do you make Flip Flop Work?
You need Flip Flop, tenacity and probably power struggle.
This leaves room for one perk slot.
If you go for an exhausiton perk then you have no DS.
If you go for DS then you have no way to make distance on the killer where none would otherwise exist.
Furthermore a killer paying attention will either immediately pick you up the second time or just intend to slug you to death.
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@Seanzu said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3065250#Comment_3065250
I would say it's a common trend at this point but I genuinely haven't seen anyone post a Tru3 video in a long time, gens will be longer and some actions shorter next patch, I feel like posting videos like this right now are entirely pointless when the game is about to change massively.
The game isn't about to change massively.Maps aren't getting smaller. M1 killers wont be viable. Pallet counts are not changing. The power of Shift W and pallet pre-drops will not change.
All the gen defense perks will be massacred; with that in mind gens will take less time overall. Looking just at Pop - it is easy to get about 5-6 Pops per game if you are not playing a super organized team. That means you make gens take 110 seconds longer.
If you lose 3 gens in the first chase that means those three gens take 10 seconds longer and the other two gens take 7 seconds longer each. The last time I checked 44-110 is a negative number. This is only considering a single perk being changed.