AVoiceOfReason
AVoiceOfReason
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@MonsterInMyMind said:
You quote on quote said
- Is the rating started counting now, or already set from past performance?
Ratings are initially based on your performance over the last few months, while the system has been collecting data in the background.
If this is true then explain how im being matched with borderline babies if i preformed well against good players how is this possible how am i slaughtering these poor babies and your system is still matching me with them not gonna lie im not buying it.
I don't believe it was capturing our gameplay stats. It was just trying to predict if we'll win or not so when they did launch it, it would be able to tell who is skilled and who is not before putting us in a bracket after awhile. If it WAS, well, they dropped the ball on this but I doubt that's the case. I honestly think its gathering stats now.
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@[Deleted User] said:
They’re getting to that. They said so. They thought it best have the new algorithm go live now, rather than wait until the new UI related to new rankings were ready.
Ah, I didn't know. Thank you.
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@DisappointedUser said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1511139#Comment_1511139
If it takes a week for the MMR to settle then it’s... drum roll... broken. It takes 5 games or so for an MMR system to settle your score. It’s why most games have the Match Games that are used to calculate your MMR. They’re usually 5-10 games.
It is entirely possible it will take weeks to settle. But that means it’s broken. It shouldn’t take weeks.
MMR uses a point system. The better you do, the more points you get, the higher your skill. The more you die, you lose points. 5 games isn't enough to take thousands of players and put them together since some are different than others due to rng (maps, suicides, dc's) that can affect it. We start out with almost the same amount of MMR. It's why everyone is clumped together. There is no more dc penalties either so that affects MMR since it'll count that as a lost. If I DC 10 times as killer, I can almost guarantee that Ill get rank 20s.
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@DisappointedUser said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1511122#Comment_1511122
No. It wasn’t used for matching but it was being recalculated in the background. These even released a FAQ that says this in black and white. People who have been playing for the past two months are not starting at the default MMR
Alright. See you in a week. I'm tired of explaining it over and over again. Can't wait for a week to hear the complaints about how hard it is. I've already said why the old use doesn't matter. I won't parrot. Check the other forum posts and you'll see my explanation about that. Take care.
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@DisappointedUser said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1510323#Comment_1510323
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1510323#Comment_1510323
You do realize how much he’s played right? Not to mention they already said his MMR had been calculating for months because he plays all the time. It’s clearly broken.
It was not used for matchmaking, it was region specific (Xbox only) and you still have to play games afterwards. Switching killers doesn't help settle your MMR since each killer has a different MMR. His play time matters not to MMR since it was only used for matchmaking yesterday.
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@Chett said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1510764#Comment_1510764
Eww ? First: they said they have been collecting data for while. Second: they said Surv MMR is for all ur Survs and takes place after 10 Games. What are u talking 'bout ?
To see if MMR would work. It wasn't actively used for matchmaking. It was used to see if it would improve and it took months to test, not 1 single day. I said the killer's MMR is all individual. I never said survivors were. If a killer has no or small amount of MMR, they will face survivors with equal, slightly higher or lower than that to gauge it. The more you play that killer, the better matched you will be. It's not hard. You play 1 match as Hag, don't expect god survivors afterwards.
Finally, I don't know what your survivor thing is about but if you die or win, your MMR will even out after a few days.
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@wisdomwielder said:
MMR be damned.
If you have less than one hundred hours in this game, this system should NEVER match you against people with thousands of hours. There needs to be a gently sloping scale of increasing difficulty and gradually increasing upper limit to what ratings you are matched with depending on your performance. This system seems to just drop you in the ring with Muhammad Ali "to see how well you perform." Wow amazing! You got destroyed!
This game is already very unfriendly towards newcomers. If this continues, I can only forsee a great drop-off in new player retention. People don't play videogames to get frustrated (sane people anyways).
I've also noticed that the system seems to think that having one high rank player in a lobby will balance things out against a good killer. I'm sorry but one person cannot carry an entire team in a game like this. A decent killer will just focus on the weak links. One or two dead without gens completed is almost a guaranteed win for the killer, and chances are, the high rank is going to find the hatch. The only people that suffer in this arrangement are the low ranks.
(I also really want to know how these matchups are determined; is it seriously just the average rating of four survivors vs the rating of the killer?? If so, that's incredibly myopic and negligent!!)
After a month, MMR will have settled down and you won't have to worry about that.
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@Chett said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1510735#Comment_1510735
But i am Surv and have 19 Matches (R1, 2k+ hours). Doesnt work. Still getting very ######### up games.
Enlight me MR. Knowitall.
MMR is affected by the killers. Its been out not even a full day and you're expecting instant results on every match, ignoring other player's habits on how they play and who they play. If they swap killers a lot, you'll get an influx of godlike killers and potato killers. Same with Survivors. You might get godlike survivors or survivors who UE in the middle of nowhere. Also, if you insult someone, don't always expect a reply.
MMR was stated to be individual for killers. You can't be great at Trapper then expect godlike survivors when you start playing as Hag. Yes, it takes a week to a month if you constantly swap killers because each have their own MMR. If they didn't, there would be no point in an MMR. After a week or a month of everyone playing, everything will even out and you'll get mass people complaining on how matchmaking is too hard and unfun.
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It's simple logic. Play the same killer multiple times to get an MMR ranking. The ranking isn't shared. If you switch killers, it'll take weeks to get an estimate on all of them. If people don't understand how MMR works, they should educate themselves. Using 1 person who's constantly switching to make it apparent that he's not trying to adjust his MMR to correctly show his skill should not be used to question the MMR system. Simple.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1510551#Comment_1510551
Look at the edit timestamps. I edited them withing 2 minutes of posting for grammar errors. You can base your opinion on anything you want, IDC. Don't tell me what I should be basing my opinion on.
Right... over 5000 people watching him right now... Most watched and followed DBD streamer on twitch... LOL, not that good? Go troll somewhere else. I'm not wasting any more time on your blatant troll bites.
Yeah, I'm a troll who's posting pics of a streamer and using it as a way to say MMR isn't working then editing my comments shortly after someone says something about it. Yet, I'm the troll. Alright. You think whatever. I won't bother replying to anything you say but I will to others. Finally, if Ortz has followers that act like this, I'll be glad to unsub from him. Take care. I speak facts, not feelings.
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@Xbob42 said:
How the ######### you gonna have 20,000 hours in a game that's only been out 4 years?! Even a full-time job (excluding overtime and weekends) will be less than 10k hours in 4 years!
You use to be able to mod your game time on DBD. Probably a modded account.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1510532#Comment_1510532
I do not have an argument. I'm posting my OPINION, as well as justification for it. I'm not trying to "prove" anything. Opinion do not require any proof. Enough with the strawman. Educate yourself what opinion is.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion
"An opinion is a judgment, viewpoint, or statement that is not conclusive, rather than facts which are true statements."
Yet you keep going on about MMR :) It seems you've edited a few post also since we've talked. Around the time I started to add my proof, your comments are edited now. I guess if we can't see the initial comment, we can easily say something else, I suppose. Ortz doesn't seem to be that good. Honestly, basing something on a single individual is a waste of time. I guess if he's STILL getting Rank 20's and MMR is working, he's not a real Rank 1. Just plays a lot. Take care and don't edit posts to make someone look bad.
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@slim0b said:
Just went against my first tournament squad lmao managed to 2k
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/OJ3T336X1LLG/sweat2-png.png
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/IZ8W970J944E/sweat-png.png
I would censor names just incase but congrats!
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@Todgeweiht said:
Eh, I would recommend losing some matches after a while. I seriously doubt you want to go against sweaty SWF every match.
This is the point of your MMR. To put you with your skillful counterpart. If you die on purpose to get easier games, you're literally ignoring the reason to have MMR.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1510513#Comment_1510513
What am I claiming as a FACT? I'm posting screenshots of what I'm seeing in the stream right now and telling my OPINION about it. You are free to form your own opinion. Am I not allowed to have my opinion and write about it? Where did I say I have "proof" of anything?
Using a picture to valid your argument that MMR is not working is what you call proof. Your argument was that MMR isn't working. Here's pics of Ortz to prove that it's not. MMR is working as intended. It's simple as that. It doesn't matter that a streamer who plays 3 hours a day isn't playing enough or using the same character enough to get a valid MMR.
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@slim0b said:
Yup, So far I played around 22 matches or so with oni today. Difficulty starting going up from the 9th match.
Now all I'm getting is 4-man full rank1/2 SWFs and I'm not overexaggerating, the past 8 matches I had were all SWFs, posting screenshots soon.
I'm probably just gonna main spirit or hag from now on cause I really never sweat so much, but the point is guys the system eventually will work so don't worry.
Same with me as Leatherface. Started easy and got harder and harder but I'm enjoying it. I feel like my skill matters now.
Edit: Spelling mistake
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1510487#Comment_1510487
That's not a prof of anything. You posted proof that he had 1 game where matchmaking actually worked. He only posts highlights on youtube. Obviously clubbing yellow ranks 10 times in a row is not a highlight. Watch his twitch stream.
What false information am I posting in my screenshots? Do you think I'm making them in Photoshop? They are factual results of his matches.
Claiming something as FACT when the person is switching to different killers and getting low lobbies KNOWING that it requires multiple matches with the same KILLER to get an accurate score for that specific KILLER then saying MMR is not working is FALSE. You showed that he switches killer a lot. It's already known that it requires multiple games with the same killer and each KILLER will have it's own MMR.
It was known for awhile now. That's why your proof isn't proof. It just shows that he's playing different killers without giving MMR a chance to work like intended.
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@luvcraft said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1508318#Comment_1508318
"working in the background" implies that they were populating the data in the system, so that when it launched it would already be balanced.
It wasn't being used for matchmaking. That was already stated. You need fresh games after launch without switching killers to get an accurate MMR.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1510469#Comment_1510469
You don't know one of the most famous DBD streamers? Have you heard of this obscure website twitch.tv ? He has 5,469 viewers watching him right this moment. How many viewers do you have right now?
I know from your screenshots that he's switching killers instead of playing the same one to get his actual MMR rank to settle :) I provided proof and I was not condescending :) This was his newest video. Stop spreading a false narrative. If you don't understand how an MMR works, don't talk about it then. Switching killers over and over again will keep giving him new players. Until you've done a certain amount with the same killer, you won't have an accurate MMR.
Edit: Spelling mistake.
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@[Deleted User] said:
Just when I thought it can't get any worse... Actual rank 20... 2 of them... Holy [bad word that starts with S]
Edit: 0 gens done obviously.
I don't know where you're getting your vids from but his last video was today.
This was literally today. MMR is working.
Edit: Removed the files and figured out how to upload the pics xD
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@Pulsar said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1508372#Comment_1508372
I play on NA East, if that helps.
I don't believe they released the region but I have already started to notice a change in my MMR by playing as Leatherface only.
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@JFrank6294 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1510264#Comment_1510264
Yeah I know they’ve said this. And I’ve done it too on occasion. We’ve all played against “that survivor”. I also run BT, almost all the time. But the face camp only to watch them tunnel the survivor is just weak. They should have a speed reduction penalty or something.
Or just do gens and let the killer try to kill.
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@[Deleted User] said:
He is streaming right now and it's comically sad to see him getting matched with lobbies full of green and yellow survivors. For anyone who doesn't know who he is... Are there such people? He is one of the best killers in game and he is rank 1.
He needs to play the same killer and dominate multiple times to get enough points for a higher game. Switching killers, letting survivors have hatch or survivors living affects your MMR. Win every match with the same killer and you'll see him get harder opponents.
Update: Ortz just had a Trapper game with 3 level 2's and a Rank 3 who all probably depipped and went down a Rank. It fluctuates until the points are settled.
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@Impermanent said:
I had to stop playing yesterday because all my games were with Brown rank teammates vs Red Rank killers.
Today - exactly the same. 2 games with immediate DCs by teammates who are brown ranks. Last Game was Me (Rank 2 now), a Rank 6 and two Rank 20s vs a Rank 3 killer.
This is almost 20 games in.
Not only this... but on PS4 SWF isn't working properly. We don't get each other's invites. And we can't even back out of our own lobby to go to the main menu where you can choose to play killer. We're just stuck solo in a lobby and can't SWF.
This game would be so great with some quality devs.
I've been getting Rank 1-3's today, regularly as Leatherface. I'm Rank 1. I've been playing Leatherface only and it went from 20's and 7's yesterday to straight Rank 1's-3's today. It's already starting to work for me. I switched to Freddy and got a few Rank 17's for a few matches but it's slowly going down so just plow through them for 2-3 days and see what happens.
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@Raccoon said:
Will you be stuck in place forever as Survivor and X Killer?
I believe it reduces a certain amount after a time but never goes back to 0. Not decay, per say, but a decrease in points for the MMR system after a period of time.
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@JFrank6294 said:
Is anyone having a real issue with other killers face camping the crap out of survivors? Is BHVR doing any sorry of penalty for camping like this? It’s really hurting game play and most importantly the fun of the game.
Fun is subjective. Never use "fun" as a point in an argument or discussion. Fun for you might not be fun for another and if both parties are not having fun, you can't balance for that, otherwise it becomes a split. Use BT, learn tiles and do gens quickly. It's the killer's job to kill you, not to befriend you. BHVR has already said many times that camping is a legit strategy.
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I've made my points.
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@TruffleTurtle said:
What I mean by this is I feel its unfair that his traps can become invisible and be clipped underneath through floor boards like you have no idea that they were there. Like how am I suppose to know they are there? Check every possible tile that a trap can possibly be at. And before anybody says anything, no this is not a "nerf trapper he too OP". More like a "this just happened to me so Im going to the forums to complain because I have nothing else better to do with my life"
That is a bug. Record it and report it so it can be fixed.
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@Leonardo1ita said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1508292#Comment_1508292
Well the "realistic" argument doesn't really stand in a not realistic videogame like dbd where everything is controlled by the entity, so.
One of the reasons clown is trash is even because of that, hitbox bigger than other killers, so less anti loop capabilities at regular pallets
All killers have the same hitboxes, if I'm not mistaken except short killers that have slightly shorter hitboxes. Clown has the same hitbox as Hag and everyone else. Its a placebo effect. Smaller killers look like they have smaller hitboxes but that isn't the case.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1508318#Comment_1508318
As an Xbox player, I can confirm that I have been facing all Rank 15-20's since the Killer Lock Update.
Not sure which region on Xbox it was introduced but I'm giving it a week before saying anything.
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Give it a week.
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@MeatBycicle said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1508307#Comment_1508307
Apparently MMR has been working in the background since the Killer Lock update. How much more time do they need? Majority of players MMR should have already been established, there should by no means ever be games were red ranks are going against new players.
It was in the background, yes. It wasn't in full effect. Until a week passes now that it's active, I will wait. Until then, I'll repeat what I said. It was also said by the same dev that MMR was only on XBOX. So take everything with a grain of salt. Give it a week.
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@Momentosis said:
Give it a week
I literally said the exact same thing in another thread about the exact same thing. People really need to learn patience.
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@Venoxxie said:
So as we've all seen, the new matchmaking is even worse than before. It's pairing fresh babies with people over thousands of hours more often than before. Yet all I kept seeing on twitter and a bit here is "just read the update, you'd know why matchmaking ranks are all screwed" and stuff along those lines.
I'm already sick of it... I did read it and the way they had made it sound (whether it was in their update post or before this) was like it was gonna have a new UI and we were gonna reset or whatever maybe so we could tell what "skill level" we were at and they discussed not using ranks in the same way and probably just using it for a reward system. I figured we might all go back to 'level 0' or 'rank 20' or whatever but there's no way to tell because we are still. using. RANKS. We are still using the rank pips, the system should have been redone entirely. Not just one part of it.
I've seen people get 4 rank 20s as a rank 1 killer or all red rank survivors with a baby killer. So you're telling me either A) brand new players have the same skill as someone with 1k+ hours or B) people with 1k+ hours are god awful at the game and are basically rank 20. Even though in these matches all the new players lose to those who are in the red ranks. So how is this "skill" matchmaking any better?
And don't tell anyone who thinks this way to "just read the update" because we did. You cannot tell us that either we're just THAT awful at the game or the new player is THAT amazing within 1-5 hours of playtime.
Give it a week. It'll settle.
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@Leonardo1ita said:
So I've been playing with the new reworked leatherface for 2 days, and it feels I'm bumping into objects much more than I used to when I prestiged old bubba.
Even when turning corners of shack for example it seems I have a bigger hitbox larger than normal, and I'm constantly scared of bumping into objects with bubba.
Anyone confirming?
The hitbox are the same as before but I do believe the chainsaw swing is slightly wider than the original version due to the animation change. That could be causing you trouble.
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@Name_Unavailable said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1506953#Comment_1506953
Hello again. Im not asking how to beat these kind of teams, im asking "Was it fun?" would you spend your free time against this kind of teams? I know i don't same to survivors who face tunnelers every match.
About infinite i could say the same as you, (its NOT 0 chance to win). because the window will be blocked after survivor vaulting it 3 times, or i could tell you use bamboozle, and its your fault not using this perk to counter it? No. that thing was broken and can be abused thats why it got removed thank god same goes with tunnling its broken thing that being abused by killers. and IT IS unfair to get down after your feet bearly touched the floor from the hook.
I face teams like that all the time. You said "Infinite". An Infinite was something you could not stop. Saying to use Bamboozle against an infinite would not be an Infinite then. It would just be a normal loop so I'm not understanding your defense. As for my fun, I enjoy trying to take everyone out as efficiently possible. I've also been the one tunneled all match. I've gotten plenty of videos of that too but you never hear me complaining because I enjoy the chase.
My fun is being attacked and trying to outplay the killer and being the center of attention but as killer, my fun is destroying teams as fast as possible to show my skill. It's why I'm excited about the new MMR. Hell, I got crushed by 4 Rank 1 SWFs literally 40 minutes ago while I played Trapper that I rarely play as on the Swamp.
I took a pounding, got 1 kill and guess what? I got called names and best part? I didn't even tunnel or camp. I caught someone in my trap at end game and refused to let anyone grab him after they tried making my life hell by disarming my traps then repeatedly vault a pallet then teabag when I went near. Did I have fun? No. Did I cuss them out? No. I told them gg as they berated me for killing 1 person. It's a game. I got outplayed.
Seeing people lose their ######### on the forums daily over a match because it wasn't a 4-Man Escape or Kill needs to learn a valuable lesson. This is a PVP game. You will not win every match. Their fun was not fun for me but I took it because I follow what I preach.
Anything else? Also, there is a reason why I ALWAYS run BT for my teammates. I don't use it for unsafe unhooks. I use it to save them from killer's who need to learn that just because you want to win doesn't mean I'm gonna give you an easy match. Welcome to PVP. I'm gonna do my best as a survivor to wreck you and make sure you NEVER forget my name or disrespect it in-game or those ankles and them saves will be mine.
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@Reinami said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1507729#Comment_1507729
Yeah, but there's nothing wrong with blueprints. It is fully possible to make a good game in blueprints. Try following a tutorial sometime, UE4 is free unless you sell your product. Blueprints are also extendable with your own code, i think it uses C++ in the background, might be C# i don't remember exactly.
Ah, got it. I just want the devs to succeed. If fixing the game becomes too hard, I hope they can make a second DBD without Blueprints and make it great from the get go with all the current improvements and such and licenses.
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@Kumnut768 said:
this game is primarily coded using blueprints which is what causes so many bugs to happen which stay in the game for months or years
but making an entirely new game would have its flaws as well and would take a lot of time and resources that i dont think the developers have atm
Ah, thank you.
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@Reinami said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1507668#Comment_1507668
That's how UE4 works though, i'd bet most of the game is blueprints.
That's it! Blueprints. Wasn't sure how hard it would be to switch from that to pure C++.
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@Brhoom said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1507645#Comment_1507645
Did I say not to kill survivors? I said tunneling a survivor early on to do a 3vs1 is unfortunately a very effective start that doesn't have a counter, and is no way similar to survivors doing gens.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1507575#Comment_1507575
Nice way to put words into my mouth, read what I said in this post.
You said to not tunnel a.k.a. the easiest target who is already hurt but rather someone is who healthy while they can go on gens. It's the same thing except more words. Efficiency.
Note: How did I put words in your mouth by asking a question?
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@JesusOnWheels said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1507664#Comment_1507664
and what did you see
I edited what I said previously and explained. I was going to be lazy.
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@Reinami said:
As a software engineer (not in games) i can say that this is not really done for this type of thing. Generally you only rework/scrap the old thing and completely rebuild it if there is some fundamental design flaw in the core system. Dead by daylight is build in UE4, because of that, it seems unlikely that there is some core fundamental problem with how it is designed. It also probably isn't as "spaghetti" as you think it is. It is likely that there are certain pieces that need work, but generally it is going to be much easier to rework those pieces, then try to completely rework the game.
On top of that, even if they were to do this, it would likely result in it's own new types of problems that the new system would have. Software engineering is a complicated field.
It's using an IF system box. Its all linked and I believe that's where the problems derive from. Not actual coding but a plug-in style.
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@JesusOnWheels said:
Have you personally seen the code?
I have. I believe McLean showed us a version of it years back on a Dev Stream to explain why they referred their coding to spaghetti code. It's literal boxes of IF statements that link together.
Note: I almost didn't explain but I decided to say why.
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@Veen said:
Well it is possible, but you can also squeeze money out of a game until it last and move to another.
Thats how businesses works, DbD probably wasen't expecting such a success which explain so much issues when it came to the bugs nowadays.
I know that they wasn't that great with initial coding due to their group size but they've grown. They could do a full C++ game so they wouldn't run into so many issues every update. They do care, otherwise they wouldn't bother updating at all.
Note: They have all the assets already to go. It wouldn't take much, I don't believe. The animations and assets are the majority of the legwork but I'm not a programmer so I don't know how true that rings.
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@Brhoom said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1507422#Comment_1507422
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1507437#Comment_1507437
Abusing the game to have a huge advantage that guarantees victory for the killers most of the time is not fair nor healthy for the game.
How is being near a hook waiting to jump into another chase with an injured survivor is the same as doing gens?
And don't you dare use the excuse of ''killer's objective is to kill'' to justify this behaviour.
Wait, are you seriously saying to not go for the easier target while you do gens? O.o
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Dead Hard: Bacon Saver
NOED: Entitys' Body Regimen
DS: One Hit Wonder/ K-O
Unrelenting: Practice Mode
Leader: Don't Make Me Do Stuff!
Deliverance: The Second Coming
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@RakimSockem said:
When you play against a Freddy running Swing Chains, Jump Ropes, Thanataphobia, Dying Light, and a Mori.
And a Mori.
Gross. Disgusting. Would not recommend
@RakimSockem said:
Forgot to mention he also had PGTW and Surveillance
Sounds like he had a fun match.
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@Dehitay said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1507024#Comment_1507024
A honey pot trap is when you use sex to lure somebody into a trap of some sort. It's most commonly used by agencies sending an attractive woman to use sex to get a man to reveal sensitive information or steal actual resources from him. The OP is just using a fancy word because he thinks it makes him look intelligent when it actually accomplishes quite the opposite unless he's actually implying that he was luring survivors with seductive tactics to kill them which has absolutely nothing to do with camping.
There are different versions of honey-potting.
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Attracting others by using bait. Putting honey out to trap flies.
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MMR takes time to work