Why are people crashing out on these forums about the changes being delayed?
There are literally hundreds of videos and thousands of posts demonstrating, with concrete evidence, why the current iteration was not good.
This wall of evidence was so thick that BHVR made a statement a couple of days into the PTB indicating as much.
Objectively, it should not be going live until these issues which, again, have hundreds of captured examples, are addressed.
The foot stomping and whining from some users is simply wild, particularly when no effort is made to refute the very real evidence that exists.
The system is going to be tweaked and brought back in a better form that presumably addresses its current issues - there is no need to be upset or descend into histrionics.
Comments
New clown changes are clear nerf his yellow delay before giving haste is 1,6 seconds, busted curent is 1 second and old version was 2 seconds with 10% haste now its 12% haste but the true nerf are his purple bottles from original 15% basekit hinder with 2 seconds lingering effect to curent 12% hinder with 1 second lingering effect and now when new patch hits live it will be hinder lingiring effect when survivor leaves purple gas 1,6 seconds but with 12% hinder. It looks to me that bhvr wants to unify hinder effects with freddy and clown but they nerfing his time survivor is slowed when leaving the gas which is kinda big its like base mft when you are effected by gas (purple one) and that 0,4 seconds that og clown had it should linger now atleast for 3 seconds 2,5 seconds minimaly.
Its abit of missplaced anger. Most everyone knew the changes couldn't go to live as is. Because of BHVR's horrible track record on time frames, ppl are willing to accept lighting the whole house on fire to warm themselves up knowing bhvr might take YEARS before trying another PTB that is maybe abit closer to reasonable. Instead of blaming BHVR for bothering putting something so obviously problematic on PTB, people would prefer to vent at anyone who pointed out the glaring issues for BHVR's all or nothing attitude.
They could've tried out a handful of their proposed changes to test it out. Instead they tried like 15 basekit changes at once knowing there's no way it would work.
At least from my experience the system was a little too restrictive for killers railroading them into a single playstyle and was a bit too forgiving for survivors by letting them just make bad plays. I think some things can be ported over to live like the hidden hook timer and delayed unhooking, that's the easiest to balance around but the anti-slug and anti-tunnel need more work. I can't say that I'm fond of having tenacity basekit because it enables cordinated players a little too well, personally I think the bigger issue overall is that we try to keep making perks basekit for both roles. I don't really like that but at the same time we can't just keep releasing more perks to bloat the pool anyway, admittedly I don't really know what the long term solution is for balance.
There already have been requests for real evidence, and I never actually saw anyone post the real evidence.
And if there was a lot of real evidence, I’m sure some of the people on these forums would have posted it by now.
It’s just not believable that these false positives are happening enough to be a problem.
I call BS on this.
Because, if tunneling was actually rare, then we should be able to implement the changes from the PTB as written, and have nearly zero impact for the downsides (again, because tunneling is rare).
And everyone gets a huge boost to other play styles because almost no one is tunneling.
Yet that's completely counter to the community meltdown that forced them to stop the ptb early and shut down the changes indefinitely.
So, either Scott is right and the community had a meltdown over nothing, or Scott is wrong and tunneling is way, way more common than his limited test shows. (Hint: it's the second one)
From what I saw peeking in at Reddit, the caliber of discussion points was about equal to these, yeah.
The PTB’s definition of “bad tunneling” was terrible and unrealistic. You forgot that option.
The issue is the stuff on the PTB wasn't just hitting tunneling people. You had alot of killers just trying to avoid getting hit my penalties knowing if they chase the "wrong" person off a gen, the game is going to screw them over. There was no timer keeping track of how long a survivor was off hook or anything when dealing with the punishments. Someone could have been working on gens for 2 minutes after unhook, and the game would recognize it as tunneling if the killer failed to get a hook on someone else before chasing them. If you really wanna see videos of games not involving tunneling that got hampered, ill link em. I thought by now ppl knew this was happening.
all of this was fixed by deleting the 6 hook states punishment and not blocking gens, they just deleted the entire update after 2 days they're not even trying… hiding hooks and unhook notification was interesting, elusive effect was good, basekit killer buffs are pretty good, it doesn't prevent tunneling but it helps a bit
The intangibility led to a lot of (ironically) bodyblocking, running interference (on pallet drops / window vaults), etc which is clearly not the intended outcome.
Agreed. I feel like people really weren't giving that stuff credit when discussing the issues with the punishments. The entire goal around anti-tunnel should be helping the survivor get away from the hook and maybe heal up, not provide extra benefits AFTER that if they get found later on. People on the forums acted like the punishments were the only anti-tunnel measures and if anyone found faults in those it means they just want to tunnel.
The problem is that these changes wouldn't just punish hard tunneling and were way too abusable creating loose loose situations for killer.
As an example: imagine game is at 2 gens and you hooked one survivor twice everyone else once and now that survivor that you hooked twice sits in front of you on a gen. What do you do? You have to get him of the gen but...
In this situation as a killer you lose not matter what you do even though you are not hard tunneling cause he is right there doing a gen in your face.
I personally agree that they need to change something to make survivor solo queue more bearable. But if you roll out changes that tip the balance too much in the other direction you will then have the problem that noone wants to play killer anymore and surv queues explode and the killers you get will mainly consist of blights, nurses and ghouls.
Given the downvotes, here are a couple of threads on the topic:
https://www.reddit.com/r/deadbydaylight/comments/1n89tcp/you_can_no_longer_punish_survivors_for_making/
https://www.reddit.com/r/deadbydaylight/comments/1n7nbfg/wow_who_would_have_guessed_that_the_antitunnel/
You just replied to yourself btw... not sure who you were trying to message there.
It was me, Raccoon!
Just wanted to make sure that anyone actually looking for information and examples regarding issues with the loss of collision had some material.
Hot take fun is the only thing that should matter.. know why dungeons and dragons still exists and is popular in the year of our Lord 2025? Because at any point rules and be back seated for fun. It's the only thing that matters for the health of the game.
Maybe the solution is just to start the game with 3 survivors at 3 gens so that killers don't lose there fun. It will still be a 4v1 game but the game starts with the killer sacrificing the 4th player (bot) making everyone happy.
Oh, lol. You could say ANYTHING and get downvoted into oblivion. I could say grass is green and someone will downvote it if they think im from the "otherside" and thus the enemy.
Weird take from someone who was worried about their own opinions being dismissed.
If you noticed, your rhetoric is the most juvenile in this thread.
Maybe step back and gave a few deep breaths - it's ok.
What a world!
I'd imagine most people don't even read the comments and just mash downvote on you as your posts in defense of the PTB also accrued similar downvotes :P
Because survivor Mains don't understand or don't want to understand or don't care how badly this patch would have been for the game. It didn't effect hard tunneling and toxic slugging only, it made the entire purpose of killer to be a good toy for surivors. They didn't watch any of the games against bully squads or comp squads pushing the ptb to the limits. They don't care they just want gibs right now. Rather that getting a more balanced and fair update (which killers would like too)
And comparing this to fog vials is dumb because the bugs in the ptb with them got brought over to main.
So you're saying there's evidence?!
Wild!
Insert "that never happened" from people here
I think the Forum would be better off without downvotes and upvotes honestly.
Can't disagree.
Yes. I experienced it, and there are videos made from people like quiet kills, hens, otz, and theMrheadache demonstrating this issue
I was noticing it on videos that weren't even TRYING to showcase it. Ppl would try out the new killer or the Myers change. Ppl who weren't returning to hook were still finding themselves getting the punishment for not keeping track of who they were suppose to pretend is invisible at any given time.
I'm talking about selfish fun. Would it be fun if survivors still had to suffer from first down Moris on any killer? No because first down mori's was downright unhealthy for the game. This PTB would have been disasterous for the games health as slightly slaps a couple killers and puts weaker killers in an EXTREMELY rough spot and the only thing they got back for it was… 10% haste for 10 seconds, 20% current regression pop (which isn't that good) and slightly watered down BBQ and chili. Weak killers simply cannot make good use out of these against good survivors.
This would have sacrificed so much of the enjoyment of killers that aren't even that good for making newer/casual players feel not as bad for dying in a game they're not even good at… Which makes me question if you ARE actually casual for dbd why do you care if you get tunneled? Slugging I can kinda get but chase is legit THE most interactive part of dbd. If you don't like being chased idk what to tell you. It just doesn't make sense. Also DBD is a Player versus Player game, its always gonna be competitive no matter what even if you want to deny that. If you want a horror experience with other people, there's plenty of co-op horror games out there that doesn't have the killer being an actual person.
Also DND isn't a fair comparison. You can legit make ANY scenario with DND as it's a sandbox.
Yeah but personally I would keep a very light version of this but only for 3 hook states, just to prevent the hardcore tunneling at 5 gens especially from blight/nurse these are legit unwinnable, all other forms of tunneling would still be possible just slightly nerfed I think it's reasonable. What do you think
devs just had to do a few tweaks… they fumbled so hard
Let's not sanewash the absolute meltdowns, doomposting, review bombing, and "histrionics" that happened when the PTB wasnt even up for 48 hours. Ive legit never seen anything like it. There's giving feedback, and then there's whatever the heck all that was.
People have just come from having mediocre fog vials nerfed into uselessness, so yeah, I can understand some folks have lost faith in any sort of proper update. As someone else mentioned, it absolutely needed tweaks and number changing. The entire thing being reverted doesn't bode well. Histrionics on both sides of the coin are unnecessary but it's perplexing to see a post like this now of all times lol
A lot of people believing something is not evidence its true.
If you want to argue that BHVR couldn't go through with it given their customer reaction, okay.
But that's not evidence of what is frequently being claimed.
Lots of the complaints, while common, where flat out wrong. Arguments that killers couldn't tunnel were absurd. Arguments that didn't mention killer buffs were avoiding the overall patch changes. Arguments like 'slugging gives no pressure' were such radical exaggerations that it was impossible to take them seriously.
So if I see/post how collision removal can be used aggressively with video examples that explain the point/issues, that's not true?
If it can happen in every instance of the status being applied, I'd certainly argue that it's true.
There's a stark differences in someone making a claim and someone being able to demonstrate it.
Any issues that I've seen people have with the PTB that gain any traction were usually backed up with video evidence and an explanation.
I'll agree that there were certainly some exaggerations/histrionics, but those statements fall apart under analysis and should be disregarded as such.
3 hooks would most likely only hit people who are tunneling in the extreme, so I doubt that would hit someone by accident unless the survivor is being obnoxious.
I AM always wary about how any basekit changes like this will affect player behavior. Basekit BT made it very common to see players running TOWARD the killer rather than running AWAY as soon as the unhook occurs for example. Was just watching some new Mikey gameplay and im seeing some of that different that normal behavior. Even though survivors can't be bodyblocked, they'll still try to cover their teammates knowing the killer doesnt want to double hook them. They'll also be fearless on gens knowing the killer has solid reason not to punish them for it.
https://youtu.be/Ibb2l9VS6CA?si=eszs_2C4OIuJ1TsqYou get to see abit of both in the first game here. Im only partway through the video so I dont know about the later games. The disgusting tunneler caught a penalty for game 1 at least, lol.
So if I see/post how collision removal can be used aggressively with video examples that explain the point/issues, that's not true?It's not a complete argument.
It is missing:
What is the overall impact when considering all the changes?
Is it bad if no the collision impact can be used aggressively?
Is BHVR's goal to completely remove no collision as an aggressive tool? (this one depends on the person because some people will argue within BHVR's stance on the game, others on what is the best overall game)
What other solutions, besides a complete delay of the patch, could have been implemented?
This follows into something else -
I'll agree that there were certainly some exaggerations/histrionics, but those statements fall apart under analysis and should be disregarded as such.If you argue there is ample evidence, but don't specify, but also agree that some of the things people are using as evidence is wrong, then its not really a discussion.
If I say Killer is brokenly strong, and someone disagrees and argues about Trapper facing a SWF, and I argue about a comp Nurse hitting soloq, we're discussing very different examples but trying to generalize it to the same thing.
We're in an amorphous space where anything can be true. You can bounce back and forth with someone talking about people's reactions while meaning completely different things.
In all fairness, the topic is centered around the 4 survivors and the things they'd be able to do with any killer/map/ect. Whether we say its against Trapper or Nurse is kind of a moot point. I dont think anyone here is arguing against a survivor being able to avoid being tunneled off hook. Its everything that occurs after that thats the focus. Should a survivor feel untouchable after being unhooked because its not their turn to be hooked again? We can give survivors opportunities to get away from the hook to recover, but we end up having cases where a protection for 1 person starts being used aggressively in multiple different ways to either act altruistic or to apply gen pressure.
"What is the overall impact when considering all the changes?"
The problem in question only occurs on the PTB and is therefore measured as such.
"Is it bad if no the collision impact can be used aggressively?"
I don't personally mind, but it certainly invites tunneling, which doesn't seem to be a good fit for a mechanic meant to prevent tunneling and punishes killers that do not wish to tunnel.
"Is BHVR's goal to completely remove no collision as an aggressive tool?"
I believe the new Elusive status off hook was stated to be used as a tool to give people a chance to escape the killer, but again, I'm PERSONALLY in favor of it being used aggressively but I can see the issues it presents despite this.
"What other solutions, besides a complete delay of the patch, could have been implemented?"
Who knows? Apparently none, hence the delay - no one has a full scope of the PTB process or coding.
"If you argue there is ample evidence, but don't specify, but also agree that some of the things people are using as evidence is wrong, then its not really a discussion."
No. I'm stating that claims made WITHOUT EVIDENCE do not hold up and should be disregarded - I'm pretty sure this is clear from my wording.
"If I say Killer is brokenly strong, and someone disagrees and argues about Trapper facing a SWF, and I argue about a comp Nurse hitting soloq, we're discussing very different examples but trying to generalize it to the same thing."
I'm directly talking about a tool on the PTB (in my example) that can be used the same way 100% of the time. In this instance, it's body blocking with Elusive. Any player on the PTB can emulate this tactic with zero practice.
"We're in an amorphous space where anything can be true. You can bounce back and forth with someone talking about people's reactions while meaning completely different things."
Reality is true. People's opinions can adhere to this or not, but there is always evidence of what is real and factual whether it lines up with someone's personal take. Not really sure what you're getting at.
With the stuff I'm reading, you'd think the PTB was a secret mode or something - it seems like many people don't understand or ignore the issues.
I get it to some extent. Alot of the arguments made for and against some of this stuff was a whole lot of "if the planets align just right while im standing on 1 foot, someone can abuse this to be a slight annoyance". The way BHVR set this up was overly complicated in some ways for seemingly no good reason. If the game can track that im chasing survivor A while survivor B hasn't been chased for the past minute after the unhook, wouldn't it be obvious from just that survivor B isn't being tunneled?
Alot of this stuff really feels like you can't avoid making a situation that'll get abused in SOME way though. If someone can gain extra benefits beyond the what the spirit of the change had in mind... that can easily be the new norm. Do you want a survivor you CAN hit tanking shots for his teammates or do you want a survivor you CANT hit following you around to make uncounterable pallet/flashlight saves? I'd really like to figure out a fair way to stop ppl from getting tunneled off hook, but people get VERY creative with these changes.
People will optimize gameplay/features to their advantage, and they absolutely should.
Balancing these around these features/tactics is the hard part :P
They certainly don't make it easy for the majority of their playerbase to test things.
Wonder whatever happened to the beta tab in the
It vanished like your sentence :P
they got me.
John Behavior strikes again.
Right now it's clear the current situation leaves killer with the advantage as tunneling and slugging is maximizing your advantages in game. I think adding protections survivors will use as leverage aggressively is always going to happen a survivor using it shouldn't be seen as abusing it or cause to destroy a system that can clearly work.
What you need to do after that is give the killer things he can maximize in other situations to balance it. I think the hook were the right direction just not enough for some killers.
What I think should happen is killers should get dynamic buffs depending on the killer for example the haste is kinda useless for some killers. But I think a fun albeit complicated one would be some killers get charged abilitie for hooking like trapper resets all his traps to plus gives him more. Nemesis getting permanent zombie speed increase with a cap being what the add on gives. Idk I'm no game designer with number tweaks and so many helpful buffs for killers to choose from there is definitely away to make it feel good and fun with our forcing some out of the game or to eat dirt all match.
The problem in question only occurs on the PTB and is therefore measured as such.I never said anything different.
I don't personally mind, but it certainly invites tunneling, which doesn't seem to be a good fit for a mechanic meant to prevent tunneling and punishes killers that do not wish to tunnel.This is two different things.
The first part is an issue of player enjoyment. Does this, or does this not make for a better game?
The second part is whether the design fits BHVR's goals.
I believe the first part is far more important, though trying to gauge overall player impressions can be incredibly difficult. I think the second requires guessing at BHVR's goals, which is also very difficult given their scattered communications, and I believe tend to get oversimplified by the community.
Broadly speaking, I think many people talked themselves into the idea that BHVR was forcing players to play in a certain way. I do not think it is their intention to completely remove tunneling or the possibility of an unhook acting as a defender, but to make those tactics less viable.
Who knows? Apparently none, hence the delay - no one has a full scope of the PTB process or codinPart of the issue is BHVR has been talking about anti-slugging coming for a long while. Both possibilities justify player anger:
1: They listened to bad arguments
2: They released an update so poorly designed they had to walk it back entirely.
There are lots of ways this anger could have been mitigated or anticipated (it should have been no surprise there was going to be massive backlash). I, and I think a lot of players, are past the point of giving them the benefit of the doubt.
No. I'm stating that claims made WITHOUT EVIDENCE do not hold up and should be disregarded - I'm pretty sure this is clear from my wording.This is axiomatic. It is a truism that could be probably be applied to the forums at any point and, as I'll get to later, I think you're doing the same thing.
I'm directly talking about a tool on the PTB (in my example) that can be used the same way 100% of the time. In this instance, it's body blocking with Elusive. Any player on the PTB can emulate this tactic with zero practice.Right now you are, but that didn't come up to the second page of the discussion. Until then the post could have been about anything.
Reality is true. People's opinions can adhere to this or not, but there is always evidence of what is real and factual whether it lines up with someone's personal take.But your posts don't do that.
Despite arguing about people not using evidence, you don't either. You're just relying on 'it's out there' and put the burden on people to disprove a potentially moving target. There are lots of arguments out there, absolutely, but which of them prove the issues you are talking about?
This also relates to my other point, one good argument that supports a position is worth far more than hundreds of arguments that do it poorly.
All traps beyond a certain distance from the hook resetting would be a perfect individualised buff for Trapper imo
I'm pretty sure @crogers271 was talking about the impact on the match, not the overall impact on DBD.
The fact that you just said this and still got downvoted goes to show people can’t think for themselves. 🤣
Nice chatGPT response. He doesn’t have to spoon feed you every example, they’re all over multiple platforms. You’ve proven you have no leg to stand on by pretentiously arguing semantics instead of engaging any actual points he brings up.
There’s a perspective bias that you’re not considering. There are hundreds of people who support the changes, or maybe they are mostly in support of it with some minor tweaks. The complete abandonment is the problem. Survivors are sick of Behaviour claiming that they have some kind of fix in the works, yet never delivering on it. Saying October to January means they may release some minor perk in 18 months. However, when that perk gets released, killer mains are going to pop off and say that the perk is broken. Criticisms get more views then support.
"Not ALL grass is green. Some people have dead grass. DOWNVOTE!!!"