An in depth post about the lack of counterplay to spirit, deathslinger, and pyramid head.
Alot of people believe these these three killers have counterplay so I decided to make a thread going in depth the reasons why they lack counterplay. If I am wrong and you they do have counter play feel free to provide it.
Spirit:
Spirit lack of counterplay comes from the fact that her power has no tell in a chase leaving the survivors mostly in the dark. This lack of tell leaves survivors to guess. This guess is very much in the spirits favor. Add stridor into the mix and you have a broken build more on that later.
The reason the guess is in the spirits favor is because she can stand still observe your moves and act accordingly. If you walk/run away she phrases to your location and hits you, if you walk towards her she hits you. Against a good spirit there isnt much you are able to do and you are pretty much choosing which way you prefer to die. If you are injured it doesnt matter because like I said a good spirit is immediately phasing towards you and downing you.
Stridor spirit is a dirty build and has really.no counterplay. This is because it counters iron will which is usually the reply to "how do I counter spirit." When you are injured you are counting down the seconds until your death. There isnt really much to say on this because the majority of spirits run this.
Deathslinger:
There isnt much to cover mostly his zoning and quick shots.
I'm gonna start with his quick shots. The quick shot shoots in less than a second it shoots very quickly you can not react to that. Because you can not react to his shot you have to guess when hes gonna shoot and dodge accordingly. This is the problem let's say you are dodging preemptively you are losing speed and distance, then he can get up close and m1. You either guess right and he misses. Or you dont guess right and he walks up and m1s you due to your constant dodging.
His zoning is insanely strong and oppressive in chases. He can ads in and out. So let's say you are running from a deathslinger and he aims then you dodge. You start losing speed and distance then be does this a couple more times and now he had caught up and m1'd. His zoning strength comes from the fear of being shot and the fact you have to guess.
Pyramid Head:
Pyramid Head is short and sweet his zoning is far to powerful for how easy it is to do. Let's say you are running towards a vault and a PH is behind you, you vault he hits you with his range if you fake he hits you with his m1. The problem is there is zero delay after cancelling his punishment of the damn to m1. I have footage of this if you want proof. That's really it for PH
Final:
One more thing before I go the usual answer for all of these is to rush gens but then gen rush is complained about kinda confused here but that's all for now. Until next time.
Comments
Yup, DS IS awful, it does almost nothing for survivors who would need every extra edge they could use and pushes survivors who are great at the game to unbeatable levels unless you play scummy too.
NOED amounts to 1 kill unless the survivors are overly altruistic while DS amounts to up to 120 seconds of not getting hooked as a survivor which is ridiculously much or into a hookstage. Mind you that killer perks SHOULD be either as powerful as survivor perks OR more powerful yet not many perks in the killer roster come close to dead hard, DS or BT. NOED is still better because as a solo I'm mostly unaffected by it and it only pisses me off because my SWF friends won't just leave and give the killer that 1k and instead turn it into a 3k with moí even tho I'm such a swell guy not being played with after because I "just left" instead of going for a trade when we couldnt find noed anyways.
There's no point in discussing with me tho, I'm way to smart for you but that's okay, I often donate to people who are not as gifted as myself.
Even if you take it as that, that NOED = 1 kill. Thats 1 perk for 1 kill. Imagine if killers had 4 perks that powerful, 4 perks for the 4k every game based on perks alone. Sounds balanced.
As for DS, 120 seconds? Are you just tunneling survivors off hook twice in a row? Take BBQ and go find other survivors and DS isnt an issue. Just a thought.
This is the most repeated “points” people use for spirit instead of providing objective reasons as to how her lack of feedback is good for the game.
When people break down reasons for more feedback, they say things as every single other killer bar none has some form of feedback for the survivor to use, how having to guess whether or not the killer is using their power does not lead to meaningfully outplaying people as you either guessed correctly or you didn’t, how looping is the only defense in a chase.
yet defenders of the anime killer can only say SUBJECTIVE things such as looping is bad (despite chases being designed around it) or that guessing is good (it’s been explained how it feels crap even if you guess correctly)
please come back with an actual, substantive argument instead of “you just want to be able to loop” aka play the game normally
"imagine if". They don't.
Imagine if survivors had 4 second chance perks that eliminate bad plays...oh wait they have. The only other actually viable build being one where a survivor is faster on gens and vaults so they don't need those second chances in the first place if they are very good, thrilling.
And by the way, that is coming from somebody who'd make a different version of DS and BT BASELINE to adress camping and ACTUAL tunneling since I'm not a fan of fixing gameplay issues through perks.
What you said about Spirit is literally how she was intended to play! This lack of "feedback" that you guys want so you can loop her into oblivion is how she is intended! I consider Spirit what a killer should be! Either rely on different tactics or not wanna deal with that killer at all! And since 80% of the survivor community has a problem with not being able to get feedback or loop her into oblivion than why did the devs do anything about that to her during her nerf and why are they encouraging her to fake phase?
Just to play devils advocate here your point to Pyramid head and DeathDingleBerry is to have good Reaction times. This could also be said with the Spirit. I mean you see her shell of a ghost standing there you could simply tell she is in chase then and either walk or vault a window and hope you reacted well enough to block her. I think they are all personally tough to go against but personally and I know it's dumb but I would rather go against any one of these than a Doctor any day. I mean at least with these ones they have to find you as with Doctor they just spam zap and you scream I AM HERE! lol......In the end it is always a learning game and thankfully each match is not the same.
Happy hunting or surviving and I hope you have good luck in your matches! <(^.^)>
"Spirit lack of counterplay comes from the fact that her power has no tell in a chase"
I stopped reading after this point because she absolutely does have tells:
1) She stops dead in her tracks, and stops rotating too
2) The environment still reacts around her (e.g. grass moves, birds fly, etc).
3) Something I only see good survivors do against Spirit is dropping pallets early. You can vault pallets, she can't. So drop them early to cut off the different routes she has to get you, it narrows down the possibilities of where she could be
There obviously needs to be more of a cooldown between how quickly DS can aim down his sights. I don't think him being able to shoot quickly is an issue, but spam aiming to get easy distance is really lame. Of course you need to then compensate it with a buff. Please don't just nerf him with nothing in return.
PH is similar. There needs to be a cooldown between pulling his sword out of the ground after leaving trails and being able to swing an M1 attack. Again, they need to make sure to buff to compensate if they go ahead and nerf this.
Their zoning is really unfun, imo DS is more of an issue with his M2 spams.
I had a Claudette DC on me last night when I kept dragging her out of pallets. Was it you? 🌚
You cannot force someone to make a mistake, only put them in a position where mistakes are possible. And in every scenario you suggested, it is 100% up to the player behind the survivor to avoid them. If you get mindgamed, you messed up. That's your mistake, that you need to own, and you could have avoided making it whether you like it or not.
And if you cannot put those killers into positions to make mistakes, why is it that "juking" is a term that exists? Why do survivors dodge and weave, why do they make unpredictable movements, why do they fast-vault pallets and slow-vault back, why do they start running only to double back, why do they do anything that they do when faced with those killers other than stand still and die? Because they are forcing the killer into positions where making a mistake is much easier.
But no, of course you are right, you didn't mess up when you got mindgamed at a jungle gym by Ghostface, you just... Got forced to mess up? Right. And it was totally the right play to run in a completely straight line away from the Deathslinger, thus giving him the easiest shot of his life.
Not being seen is a perfectly reasonable suggestion. Stealth play is insanely strong against every killer except Legion and Doc, and it's still a viable strat against Doc if you're good enough and have some handy lockers. Why do you think that Yamaoka's Estate and Dead Dawg Saloon are so hated? It lets all but the most neon characters hide with extreme ease and never even need to use the maps notoriously meh loops. And all of these killers do have counterplay, it's just an unreasonably small amount that gets trumped in every case by skill. Which is no reason not to attempt anything in the first place, because so very few people are actually good at any of these killers and can often be juked.
I still dont understand why the devs havent make yamoake estate brighter. Like the map is Just as dark as that bug of dead dawg saloon from the ptb at the chains of hate DLC.
Its litterly Just as dark but this map hasnt been fixed.
The counters you said for spirit are just completely stup*d.
Spine chill, wont prevent you from getting in a chase, and 99% of spirits use bbq/whispers so that perk is just a waste of slot against her.
Iron will doesn't work on her, she can use stridor and basically kill 1 of your perk slots.
Spirit doesn't move grass, and you can't hear her footsteps on maps like swamp, badham etc..
"Read her moves" literally you're saying we SHOULD guess where she is, THAT DOESN'T HAS COUNTERPLAY.
"Just waste her time", yeah, let me waste her time when she's using every god damn anti stealth perk with stridor, im sure I can waste her time
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOHy-NA2qaYWhile yeah they have great zoning ph and ds will still lose the game most likely because of lack of map pressure on spirit it’s common knowledge she has no real counterplay it’s a full guessing game but on the stridor thing it’s mostly used cuz iron will is bugged so you need it for that Iron will is only suppose to remove injure sounds but it removes breathing so you can’t hear anything and need something to bring that back also atm sounds are hard bugged so spirit usually sucks cuz you can’t hear any sounds
Spirit has counter play. Just run tiles and use windows. Stop trying to loop or mindgame her.
The problem I have with Deathslinger is that once he spears you then there is nothing you can do. Being able to aim and shoot immediately wouldn't be as overpowered if you could reliably escape if he spears you.
PH just puts you in an unwinnable 50/50. Either you vault the window/drop the pallet and he hits you with the tremor, or you move away from the pallet/window and he just m1's you. Simple solution here is to add a mild start up and cool down to activating his power. Nothing bad just a period where he can't attack which forces him to commit to an option which means you can bait him to lose the 50/50. I also think his cage mechanic needs a rework. It should just be a separate thing from hooks that survivors share. Instead of needing to cage each one 3 times, you need to do any survivor 4 times.
It would be more fine if the guess wasnt entirely in the killers favor that's the whole problem.
Nah didnt play much last night also I'm on xbox.
Go watch Scott's video about spirit myths debunked she does not move grass standing still does not mean shes phasing it could easily be a fake. Yeah dropping a pallet is cool but that's still guessing.
You dont know when or where you are guessing if you would finish my post you would see more of my points dont comment if you didnt read the entire thing.
This lack if feedback forces you into a guess that's in the spirits favor. If it was made a 50/50 guess I'm sure it wouldnt be as much as a problem.
Stop doing whataboutism not even what the thread is about go away.
If you can show me videos of you consistently countering both I'll believe that. Running away from the loop can be bad for a few reasons, there are no loops near by, the loops are short, and he has a ranged attack, and he can zone you. He can put his sword in the ground now you have to dodge and weave which makes you lose distance and he can catch up and m
Saying have a good reaction time isnt valid argument or counterplay for Deathslinger. I'm a mediocre deathslinger and already have found out how to force you away from the pallet and just enough to shoot you. The thing that makes it uncounterable is that his shot is too fast. I find it hard to believe you can react to a less than a second quick shot. Also if you do "react" they dont have to shoot then you get zoned.
To sum up your counter to spirit is to make distance and hide? As soon as a stridor spirit gets the first hit you are dead there is nothing you can do. Saying "plan accordingly" isnt valid counterplay either explain. Just like saying make distance that works against every killer but what about when you cant and shes chasing you.
Yeap this exactly what you need to do against Spirit.
https://youtu.be/rGXx8dhp3sMThis is not technique that counter Spirit. You need to know game aspects. In real 1v1 and tournaments runners just throw every pallet and try to outplay the opponent so that he wastes the ability in vain.
All you have to do is wait for the animation if not just cancel and m1 you went against BAD pyramid heads not good ones.
I can easily rerecord it if you want me to I dont mind it's not hard.
You mean 'stage another 100% fail' or 'claim the recording messed up and it will take some time'?
What severe nerf did she get? If it was so severe why is she still problematic.
I never staged a 100% fail or loss the file on purpose I play with my friend who has 3k hours. We could easily record this today if hes on stop making assumptions it makes you seem ignorant.
Walk your talk and just provide the vid if it's that easy to redo.
Ohh dude, do you seriously think im going to watch a 1 hour cherry picked matches vid that claims that's the counter to spirit, that it's going to repeat the same over and over which has been debunked a lot of times but you dont want to accept it?
I mean I can easily. Stop by my stream sometime. I have done all of this and more many times and will continue to do so because these killers are simply not as bad as people make them out to be.
Pyramid Head, when doing his range attack, has such a big tell. You always know when he's going to do it and it's so incredibly easy to dodge. Add to that, it's so hard for him to turn while doing it. And if he's just trying to get you tormented, staying and watching him do it or simply not leaving while he does it just invites him to put you in a cage at best or Mori you at worst.
Deathslinger may not have a huge tell (his gun just comes up to ADS) but it's still very easy to dodge. Easier to dodge than hatches for sure. It's only a real problem when you're very close but at that point, youre already taking a hit one way or another.
Spirit is not a problem at all. She can still be looped. She can still lose you in a chase. You can still vault windows/ pallets and still stun her with a pallet or flashlight. This isn't a 50/50 gamble. This is fact. If she is "too strong" for you, maybe you need to work on your abilities and skills.
I think an important angle that isn't being looked at in this discussion is that it's not the goal of Survivors to never get hit (although that's the ideal outcome).
The goal is to not get hit for as long as possible reducing the pressure the killer can put on the rest of the team.
You can continue to merge, running out on it and thinking that you are countering the Spirit.
Also, it won't be enough to play against Spirit in 1v1.
Good thing its a 4v1 game, then.
Your logic with PH and Slinger, by default, also means Clown has no counterplay. You realize this, right?
I don't mind spirit anymore since I run spine chill and iron will. I don't mind doc bc its very easy to loop them. Just dont throw the pallet early and make distance. You should only hate doc if you're extremely stealthy.
No clown has counterplay pre dropping pallets sure its uninteractive for both sides but its counterplay.
Then... why not predrop the pallet vs. Pyramidhead or Deathslinger? MonkaHmm
Spirit definitely is too strong. My first ever game with her resulted in my adept at rank 1.
I am also a killer main saying this.
Predropping doesnt work against those two as well as it does clown PH can shoot through and as slinger you can force them away from the pallet then shoot to pull them away it's not that difficult to do either as killer.
Yes I was playing her like 2 nights ago she isnt that difficult get a good headset get the first hit and enjoy.
the difference to deathslinger and LT walls is that, in LT walls, the killer also has to guess and mind game the survivor to get the hit/down. Against deathslinger, its a one way guess with lose lose rewards- to which any half decent deathslinger will know how to counter your guesses.
if you get downed at an LT wall, its because you didn’t predict the killer and they predicted you. if you get speared by Deathslinger its simply because he can aim well.
Camping Pallets/Regular Looping vs Spirit is a bad idea.
I do pretty good against her in most of my games taking chases to buildings/areas with lots of vaulting options (to limit/remove viable pathing for her power) to use if/when a pallet drop is forced.
I don't run Iron Will.
i guess you could call me a pyramid head main. I have like 100 anniversary cakes after P3’ing and max perks. I rarely kill anyone when I play PH (intentionally). He is too OP and I play with no add ons. It is far too easy to punish survivors. Especially when you cage them for “hook 2” instead of saving it to mori them
Also for the sake of “lore” PH in this game makes no sense and lacks the psychoanalytic aspect of Silent Hill
See I'm a killer main myself (rank one on both for whatever it's worth) and I still will say she's fine. It seems survivors wants to be able to play against all killers the same way and when something comes along that shakes up the meta, it's world breaking.
Spirit is fine where she's at. I look forward to going against anyone who plays her. It breaks up the monotony of going against Freddy every other game.
Kinda weird you preface defending Spirit by saying you're a killer main. Killers aren't the ones having a problem with Spirit...
Oh scottjund nice to have you here.
Why is it these killers always come up in the no counterplay discussion? Yet nobody talks about Legion?
It doesn’t matter if he can’t down you with his power, it’s the one that truly has no counterplay and he really is by far the most boring killer in the game.
Spirit, pyramid head, even deathslinger who I hate.....all are nothing in comparison to Legion, the killer that the community almost universally agrees ruins the game and needs a rework
Yes he has no counterplay to dodge his frenzy but he isnt really oppressive in chase rather than being annoying. I would like a flat rework.
Do you have any proof about that?