vladspellbinder
vladspellbinder
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I didn't know Mike opened his hand when running Tombstone. I very rarely ever see The Shape at all as Survivor and when I do they tend to be either Tuft or extended T3 without Tombstone ones. Rarely Mirror Myers.
Not that this information is very helpful, as if I'm in a position to notice his hand it is probably soon to be around my neck anyways.
Speaking of hands, onto the subject matter at hand.
I'm all for there being "tells" on what add-ons Killers are running that an astute player can spot, but I'd rather they not be too obvious so as to be eastly seen. So instead of the doll being on the clear other side of the box, which is very obvious, maybe have the timer on the box read 66:66 instead of 88:88 like it normally does. This means you can't see the clue from just the box aura and have to look at the box itself to even notice it.
That said I'm the sort of person that when I'm up against a Pig and she gives me a party hat I take it off as soon as I can, ignoring everything else until it's gone. If it's not currently ticking I'll let myself be healed but if that icon is red I'm going for boxes, even bloody, and as such I don't really worry about Tampered Timer myself.
When I see other people doing gens(!) or bones or chests with a trap on their head all I can think is "They must not value their life."
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@BananaBlooD95 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2369742#Comment_2369742
You get more points for hitting survivor twice then you get for downing a survivor really fast with insta down in the chaser's category
Yes, I know, but my point is that insta down doesn't hurt Chaser as much as it hurts Malicious.
With Chaser you get three sets of points, finding a Survivor and starting chase (5 points, barely worth mentioning), hitting a Survivor to end a chase (flat 55), and then a number of points depending on how long the chase lasted (90 to 30) with the quicker the chase being the more points you get. So if you find and insta down someone right away, having the chase last less than ten seconds, you get 150 points (out of a needed 2,550). Yes you only get one chase and miss out on the potential for another 150 but your average chase is going to last closer to thirty-forty seconds depending on Killer mobility and player skill. I'd say most people will probably get around 220 points per down if they do double chase (5x2=10) lasting thirty to four-five second each (50x2=100) + two hits (55x2=110) (10+100+110=210). Now if you're really good at chase, or have high mobility and can get downs faster then, yes, you will be getting more Chaser points by doing two fast chases over one fast chase. But the base 65 points for finding and hitting a Survivor in chase for Chaser isn't as important over all as the base 2 points double hitting is towards Malicious because of point requirements.
As I said above Chaser needs at least 2,550 points for Iridescent. Two or three insta downs isn't going to hurt that too much as long as you don't stick around hooks, just ignore people if they try to loop you near the hook. Where insta down really hurts is Malicious. Malicious "only" needs 36 points for Iridescent, but is much more stingy giving out points than Chaser is. You only have two ways of getting points in Malicious, hitting Survivors (1) and hooking Survivors (2). So normal Killers get 4 points per hook, two hits and one hook. Insta down Killers only get 3. The biog problem here though is that if a Survivor heals a health state you loose 1 point. So really most of the time Killers are only getting 3 points per hook with insta down only getting 2. Now you can proxy camp the hook (so as to not hurt Chaser) and tunnel the first person so they can't be healed but then you're setting yourself up for danger when it comes to Devout in that the second person you get hooked probably won't be saved so you won't get enough hooks over all for Iridescent there.
Insta down is fine on Chaser if you use it right, but dangerous on Malicious is you're not really careful.
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@PanicSquid said:
I just got Adept Oni, and it was possibly the worst adept so far. You don't get any gen regression, tracking perks, or useful chase perks. None of his perks synergize well with his power and his power is an insta-down, so you can't use it too much or you don't get the chaser points you need.
Insta downs are actually really great for the Chaser Emblem, because the faster you end the chase the more points you get. You only short yourself the points from the second hit which you can make up for easily enough. Where you really get hurt with insta downs is in Malicious because one hit is 1 point and one heal is -1 point so you're only getting 2 points from the hook instead of (1+1+2-1=) 3 points like other Killers that have to hit twice to get downs. And it hurts even more if you slug and don't hook and they get back up as now you're net -1 when they heal to full instead of just neutral if you can't prevent the Injured -> Healthy heal.
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@DelsKibara said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2368208#Comment_2368208
Yeah sounds about right. It's equally as frustrating and jumps as much hoops as trying to get a Killer adept on a Killer that can instadown.
Thanks. I tried to hit that sweet spot of juuuuuust annoying enough to be doable but still also really tedious. Honestly I think the window vaulting is a bit much, as that has no real tangible Score Event or Emblem impact so maybe remove that part of things. Replace it with escaping two chases maybe. But it's easy enough to escape the same time you pallet stun so that's somewhat redundant... .
The thing about insta down Killers is you just don't have a power or have to be very stingy with it's use. It tended to be Gatekeeper, because no mobility or no pressure, or Devout, as you have to get a minimum of nine hooks AND hook everyone at least once, that got me more so than Malicious or Chaser. At least with insta down Killers you got great Chaser, you just had to balance it with the Malicious which takes some trial and error and knowing how the Emblem system actually works.
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@NerfedFreddy said:
Killer adepts are fine. Also they are optional. Some achievements are supposed to be challenging. Just 4k is too easy to be achievement
@DelsKibara said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2367969#Comment_2367969
And Survivors just escaping to get it is fine without doing anything?
How about this? Instead of making adepts easier, make it on par for Survivors in terms of how difficult it is.
To get Adept as Survivor you have to repair at least two and a half gens solo, no help from anyone. You have to unhook at least three other Survivors and can't be downed more than once yourself. You have to cleanse one set of the following; A) four Dull totems, B) two Hex Totems, or C) one Hex Totem and two Dull Totems. You have to open one chest by yourself, no completing one someone else started but didn't open. You have to vault at least four windows while in chase and have to pallet stun the Killer at least twice. You have to escape alive, doesn't matter if it's the Exit Gate or The Hatch. Then you get your Adept Survivor Achievement.
Instead of just being able to jog around the edges of the map to avoid crows and hiding the whole game waiting to get Hatch.
I think for Adepts. on both sides, it would be fine if you just had to reach four Golds, or an Iridescent, two Golds, and a Silver for a bit more leeway. However, Killer Emblems are just not balanced when it comes to some Killers so even that might be hard to not get a single Bronze.
(For the record I have all but three Adepts, those three being the three new characters because I have not bought the DLC. Some of the Adepts, both survivor and Killer, took me many attempts. As Survivor it was often because I was either tunnled or facecamped or just had a [bad word] team. As Killer it was often because I had little to no pressure and couldn't get Iridescent Gatekeeper and other times it was because the team I was against was just straight up better than me.)
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@Piruluk said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/266822/totem-spawns-really-need-to-be-adjusted
High risk, very high reward.
No need to change
I play both sides, but freely admit to being a Killer Main. It's something like 30-70. You sound like a Survivor Main who never plays Killer, from how flippantly you discard the conversation. That's fine, but you need to consider how what you say impacts the other side. If someone just said "Loop better. No need to change." if you complain about being facecamped does that in anyway help the discussion? No, it doesn't.
The theory is that Hex Totem are High Risk High Reward, but in practice they wind up being All Risk No Reward the majority of the time. It is the exception that Ruin stays up for more than one or two gens.
Survivors should never spawn with a Totem in their line of sight. Totems should never be out in the open, not even hidden from one side. Totems should never spawn right next to a generator. Survivors should actually be forced to either bring in a tool to find totems, be that a Perk or a Map that can track Totems, or spend time actually looking for them instead of just being given them for free. We've got three Perks now that help find Totems, the only good reason not to run at least one of them is that you don't have them because of the Bloodweb being the Bloodweb. "But my Meta build!" "But my second chance Perks!" are not good reasons. I always bring Small Game or Detective's Hunch when I can, and if I don't have either on the Survivor I'm playing I don't complain about Totems, I complain about not having the right tools to deal with the Totems.
When I get hit with a Hex Perk as Survivor I don't complain about the Perk itself, I complain about not being able to deal with the problem or that my "teammates" didn't deal with the problem. I'm one of those "Do bones" types of people, I try to end each match with them all cleansed. That is not to say I don't find some Hex Perks to be problematic to the game, NOED is a real issue that needs to be addressed in some way that doesn't cripple it for example*. But the same is true on the other side, Hex Perks and Totems in general are just in a really bad spot right now where they don't serve the purpose they were put into the game to serve: a second objective for Survivors. They are too easy to find right now and even then people still ignore then if they don't glow.
I have had games where Ruin stays up all five gens, but it was mostly because I was either going against a Low Pressure Killer, such as Trapper, or was playing a Low Pressure Killer and the Survivors didn't need to remove Ruin to get the gens done. I've also had games against High Pressure Killers like Nurse, Spirit, or a really good Blight with Ruin in play and they get a 4k before even a single gen is done because they could pressure people off gens to let Ruin do the work.
As it is right now Hex Totems are either No Risk All reward or All Risk No Reward with very little High Risk High Reward. There are some changes that could make them more what they were intended to be and probably the best option is changing the spawns so Survivors have to hunt for them at least a little bit instead of just having them be right out in the open next to gens.
Personally I like the idea that Hex Totems don't "light up" so a Survivor has no way of just knowing a Totem is powering the Hex or not and have to cleanse any Totem they see until the Hex they are under goes away. Or if the Killer is running even one Hex all Totems light up until all Hexes are removed.
*It's a bit to the side of the main discussion but the change I would make to NOED is that once the Exit Gates are powered all Survivors are just straight up told that NOED is in play without having to wait for someone to get hit first.
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My brain isn't running at full
blastspeed because I ONLY JUST A MOMENT AGO got that the title for this thread is a [bad word]ing PUN.AAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
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@MigrantTheGreat said:
Meanwhile I try to run a meme build just to get a crown
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/X0ZATVAQNEQI/movies-26-tv-7-1-2021-1-48-04-pm.png
"Meme build" Undying + Haunted Grounds is not a "meme build", it is inherent synergy and multiple insta-down. Shadowborn and BBQ are both meta perks, especially on Nurse, the strongest Killer in the game once you climb her steep learning curve. Heavy Panting and Fragile Wheeze are both really good add-ons, maybe not the go-to choice for most Nurse Mains that actually use add-ons instead of going without but by no means are they "meme" level. The only "meme" of this build is "Try hard Killer wanting an easy 4k."
Of course they probably DCed "Because Nurse" and didn't even get to see the double Haunted proc or anything else after your first blink.
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2320235#Comment_2320235
and the current system doesn't? In any hook system tunneling the weakest link will probably be a problem, this one at least mitigates it imo. Changing it to a shared pool wouldn't change much. But if the killer stick around to try and tunnel them the gens just get done. The current hook timer encourages tunneling more as they team has to come for them eventually or they just die, either way the killer profits just for sticking around.
The killer is encouraged to leave to get other hooks to actually progress rather than stand around for unlimited time. The only way they get tunneled is if the survivors pull off in front of the killer, which is a player problem. Yeah jerks will still tunnel but you cant really do anything about that.
The goal changes from "kill this person" to "get more hooks", thats a significant change I think.
Right now the main problem with camping is lack of knowledge on the Survivor side, both about what is going on in the game as well as the proper counter to the action. When not in a SWF and without Kindred Survivors have no way of knowing the Killer is camping, so they will come in for the save. Even Kindred only helps a little if the Killer is running Insidious, because if you are not looking in that direction when the hook happens you'll miss their Aura disappearing without them walking away. SWF can just tell everyone to not bother because the Killer is camping.
The way you counter a camper is just do gens. Three Survivors without toolboxes or Prove Thyself can easily do four gens by the time that person on hook dies. Yes, it sucks for everyone involved and is not fun but anything else would just reward the camper for their crappy gameplay. New people don't understand this, so of course they are going to try and save and hover around the hook while the Killer stands there. Right now the best thing is just spreading the knowledge to just do gens against a camper. At most they'll get two kills if you don't feed them. And depending on the Killer, Survivor Perks and if you do have toolboxes and slash or Prove Thyself you can get all five gens AND save the camped person before they die. I've seen it happen as Survivor, when we all knew to just do gens and for the person on the hook to make the Struggle Phrase last as long as possible.
I agree that something needs to be done about camping and tunneling, but I don't think a communal hook pool is a good idea. But sadly I don't have any ideas of my own to offer. that I haven't already elsewhere. (Reverse Camaraderie: If there is no other Survivor within 16 metres of the hooked Survivor but the Killer IS within that distance the hook timer is paused. This at least stops face camping but doesn't do much for proxy camping. And it prevents the "loop the Killer around the hooked person" thing that was done in the past when being near the person on hook AT ALL stopped the timer AND prevents the "I'm not chasseing you if I walk backwards" loophole that tying it to being in chase would have.)
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@MrPenguin said:
Points and rank are a good first step, but there also needs to be a substantial in game benefit to help with the actual match. That or a fundamental rework of the hook/death system.
Example: no more 3 hook = dead, survivor team in total has 8-10 hooks , once the killer get that amount everyone gets sacrificed via EGC entity if not on hook and normal animation if on hook, remove hook timers.
Killers are encouraged to go after other survivors and survivor get camped less and get to play the game more. Reducing hook amount to adjust for the fact there will always be 4 survivors.
But I heavily doubt that ever happening at all considering we cant even get a communication wheel in game to help with solos or just a functioning game.
The problem with a "Global Hook Pool" is it would just encourage tunneling of the weakest link. One Survivor can't loop you at all? Only go for them if they're off hook. And if their teammates wise up and just leave them on hook with no hook timer? Then that person isn't getting to play the game AND can't get better at looping so it doesn't happen next time AND the team is down a member so it'll be that much easier to snowball.
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Personally I'd rather everyone just leave right away. I will get more points in another game than I will from the pity hits so I just want to move on.
Also as others have said there are the less kind Survivor who will wait at the gate and then leave right as you go to hit them which is just rude and then you've got the toxic ones that will t-bag or clicky-clicky or fast vault near the exit to taunt that they have escaped.
If you just leave right away you show you respect the player behind the Killer by not wasting their time.
By all means stick around a bit to go for saves if needed but if every Survivor still in the Trial is at the gate everyone should just leave, no waiting for the Killer to come around and force you out.
Just. Leave. Please.
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I'm a Killer Main, I don't camp or tunnel because I don't find it fun to do or be the target of it so I just don't do it. Unless someone is toxic to me, then I'll camp and tunnel them because they started it. (Childish of me, I know. I don't care.)
Like others have said people won't care about their rank. What people care about is feeling that they've "won". For most Killer players that means a 4k, or a 3k and "giving" Hatch to the last person. The best way to get a 4k is to remove one Survivor early, best way of doing that is hard tunneling them out of the game. Until you make it so Killers either CAN'T do that or don't NEED to do that then no matter what else is changed it won't matter.
Making it so people can't be consecutively hooked is one way to make it so they CAN'T do that. It is a decent idea, would promote slugging a bit more and make DS need a change but could be done.
On the not NEEDING to do it side I'd like to see Survivors need another objective. I don't want gens to take longer per se or there needing to be six gens instead of five. I want something like needing to find a part of the gen before being able to repair it at all, with there being something like twelve or fourteen parts scattered about the map and when you interact with a gen that can't be repaired yet you see the Aura of the closest three or four parts. Brand New Part could count for this and instead of doing up-to 25% only do 20%, with that other 5 coming into play if not used as a 'found part'. Or maybe needing to go an hit one of four switches to apply the power to the Exit Gates once the gens are finished, the Aura of these switches being shown to everyone once the gens are done. Just SOMETHING that slows the game down just a little more without it being oppressive to the Survivors.
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@QwQw said:
Honestly? Just delete them entirely. Give their aura-reading add-on's to maps so that people might actually use them.
This also combo's into my proposed deletion of the hatch.
The Hatch was added for a reason, because it wasn't always in the game (I'm not sure how long you have been been playing and if you know this or not). I'm very new to the gem, been playing for less than a year now, but I understand why The Hatch is in the game. Without The Hatch a game can be prolonged to a ridiculous extent.
With only one Survivor left they can just ignore the doors and stay away from the Killer and the Killer's only choice is the either open a door to start EGC and camp that door with the possibility of them escaping out the other door or waste a lot of time looking around if they aren't running Whispers and let's be honest, as much as I personally love Whispers it is not a meta Perk and not run very often and this change wouldn't be enough to make it meta. The other side of that is the Killer can just camp doors and the Survivor has no means of escaping. The Hatch gives both sides something they need to do when it is down to the final 1v1 that is fair to both sides and gives them equal chances of winning.
I'm a Killer main and I am totally fine with The Hatch itself. The Hatch is not the problem. The conditions on spawning The Hatch are, but more on that later.
I am also fine with Keys, and the fact of the matter is that Keys are going to stay. I know they have removed things in the past, but those were Offerings and not Items. And just outright removing Keys from the game is not a good solution, Keys (and Hatch spawn) need to be reworked not removed. They serve a role in the game and that is to apply pressure on the Killer to do well in the Trial so The Key isn't a factor. This sucks for End Game Builds but that's just another problem running an End Game Build that you'll need to adjust for as the Killer.
My go-to answer for "How do we fix Keys?" is the first point in @glitchboi 's post, Make it so The Hatch only spawns when either ((There is only one Survivor alive in the Trial) OR (Five generators have been repaired)). None of this (Generators repaired = number of remaining Survivors + 1) nonsense. The main problem I personally have and think a lot of other Killer Mains have is that a Key allows two or three Survivors to escape while ignoring their objective; finishing gens. If those two or three Survivors were still forced to finish all five gens before they could leave I think a lot of complaints would stop, because now having a three gen is still viable against a Key. The three Survivors left alive can't just ignore your three gen and leave, they still have to interact with you. And then if they do manage to break your three gen it's a race for The Hatch, just now with two or three people instead of only one.
I partially like the second point glitchboi makes as well, making it not instantaneous. I'd say three seconds over five seconds, with it being an all or nothing interruptible action like cleaning a totem, either you get it open or you don't, no partial unlocking like chests. This means people can't jsut stand over a closed Hatch and wait for you to approach before they open it and dip, which is just rude and on a somewhat more relevant matter you could stop them from leaving when in the race to it.
The other main problem I, and I think a lot of other Killer Mains, have with Keys is the ability to find them in the middle of a Trial and the Killer has no way of really knowing that a Key is now a factor. The Survivor can just leave it in the chest or place it in a corner somewhere to come back for later so they are not seen carrying it. Also because a Key has no inherent use OTHER than opening The Hatch they don't help the Survivor do anything other than rob The Killer of one or more kills that they couldn't see coming. It is one thing to know that it is possible for two or more Survivors to escape via The Hatch when you start a match, it is another to have it happen in the middle of a Trial with no warning.
As such I really like @C3Tooth 's idea of changing the two not!Broken Key Items into Broken Key add-ons so there isn't any chance that a Key found in the middle of a Trial could open The Hatch, if there was no Key in the Lobby but there is a Key in the Trial it won't be able to open The Hatch so it's a non-factor. The other add-ons would have to be changed a bit but that's fine. I also agree with @Bluebird that the charges for the Broken Key would need to be buffed.
The Hatch isn't the problem. Keys are not the problem. People need to focus on what the problem actually is and that is Survivors being able to ignore their objective and just leave without interacting with the Killer any more or with no warning. As I said before this will hurt End Game Builds, which I love playing don't get me wrong, but if you don't have a "Surprise mother[bad word]er! We're out!" moment from a found Key you can adapt to the one in the Lobby. Last second swapping to a different character holding a Key is a whole other issue.
@gendoss said:
I like just having only 1 person be able to escape with a key, like the hatch would close right after one is used.
I am really tired of seeing this suggestion. There is an Achievement for all four Survivors getting out via The Hatch. If this change was made it would require three Keys which means that three Survivors couldn't bring in any other item to help with the Trial. I understand not everyone cares about Achievements but a lot of people do care about them. This Achievement is already hard enough to do as it is unless you're part of a really good team, the Killer is really bad or you get really lucky, it doesn't need another layer of complexity on it.
Also, as I say above, I don't think the real issue is that more than one person can escape via The Hatch because of a single Key. I think the real core issue is that as soon as one Survivor is dead the other three can ignore the final generator if they've already gout four finished and just leave.
I personally had one game as Survivor where the Killer was doing really well, they had one kill with me and another Survivor both on death hook but had a really bad three gen. I knew one of the other Survivor's had a Key and while I wasn't running around specifically looking for the Hatch I didn't know where two of the three gens where so I was looking for one of them. I happened to come across The Hatch first and then found the other two Survivors working on a gen together nearby. They had the gen at around seventy percent or so and I could have hopped on to help finish it but instead I waved for them to follow me and showed them where The Hatch was and we dipped. Had I been forced to finish the gen first I probably never would have found The Hatch because it was in the opposite direction of both Exit Gates from that gen, and finishing the gen would have shown the Killer were we were and given him the chance of downing at least one of us.
So, no, I don't agree that only one Survivor should be able to escape per Key but you need to have all five gens done for The Hatch to spawn. Can't be seen by Survivors or found my a Map until it spawns and it doesn't spawn until only one Survivor is alive or five gens are done.
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@TragicSolitude said:
The Emblem system tries to force people to play the game in a specific way. It wants matches drawn out, not fast and efficient. It's a band-aid fix because it's easier to devise a point system to encourage certain behavior than it is to change the actual gameplay to encourage that behavior. Survivors are supposed to be a jack-of-all-trades in every match and a large number of killers have to forgo using their power if they want that Merciless.
Survivors may be pushed into a specific role during the match and they may do an awesome job at whatever it is, but their emblem score could suffer because they didn't tick off enough checkboxes. For killers, the emblems really need to be updated so that killers' powers are taken into account. Even Trapper, their first killer, gets penalized for using his traps, something that can actually take a lot of skill to implement well. It's ridiculous.
The game is a confused mess. Killers get an overall hook counter, but they don't get to see how many times each individual survivor has been hooked. However, the Devout emblem doesn't really care about hooks, it cares about sacrifices. Make up your mind what you want from your players, BHVR. Getting 8 hooks and no kills can be way more challenging than getting 4 kills, but the emblem system is stupidly rigid with little room for nuance or context.
The joke is the game is run on spaghetti code and sometimes that really shows.
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@Laluzi said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2309096#Comment_2309096
Oof, I didn't realize that was the case. I knew there was a health state skipped in the process of coming off the hook, but I was under the impression Malicious filed 2 points for instadowns/grabs, not just the one. That does explain how Malicious so often creates net negatives, though.
That just makes it all the more absurd, honestly. What is the point of Malicious when the only points you can get that won't be erased (or worse, erased and then some) are either hook states or the damage people keep on their way out the door? It's just a clone of Devout that cares more about the number of hook stages than the number of survivors killed. The amount of damage you inflict on survivors over the course of the game has very little to do with it, despite the description.
The whole point of this thread is talking about how borked the Emblem system is and how it needs a change. The OP was more focused on Gatekeeper but really all of them need something of an update.
Survivor wise Lightbringer is sort of OK, could give full points to everyone co-op on a gen instead of dividing it up and could give more points to everyone alive when the fifth gen is finished. And give some points to everyone alive when a gate is opened, not just the one who opens it.
Unbroken is totally borked and right now straight up goes against Evader and incentivizes a totally immersed "Never interact with the Killer" playstyle because to get Iridescent Unbroken you have to never be put into the Dying state even once. It should be renamed to something like "Survivor" and just focus on making it out alive and not be so heavy on never being downed. As it is right now you can't really get four Iridescent Emblems as Survivor unless you are really, really good at looping and getting out of chases and even then if the Killer decides they want you down there isn't anything you can do if they find you. You'll get some Lightbringer but no Benevolent and only some Evader.
Benevolent is sort of OK, it could give out a few more points to everyone when someone is healed because one person can just be hogging all of the healing and not letting anyone else get points here. But for the most part like Lightbringer this one is fine, could use some more points here while in chase or being a diversion for someone else who had been in chase.
Evader is also fine the way it is, the main problem being that being seen by the Killer is anathema for Unbroken so if Unbroken got changed this problem would go away. And as said above you don't get any Benevolent points while in chase so kinda of eigh, more a problem with Benevolent than Evader.
With Survivor Emblems you've got a "Pick two" sort of deal. You can go for Lightbringer and Unbroken easy enough, just stealth around the whole game and never interact with anyone else. Maybe thrown in some Benevolent if an injured person finds you or you know exactly where the Killer is so you can get an unhook and remain unseen. You could go hard core Evader and always get into chases and hope people are on gens so you get the token Lightbringer points there but you're probably going to go down at some point, if only because you run out of delay resources and no one dives in to take a protection hit at the end so there goes Unbroken.
With Killer Emblems Gatekeeper is a bit too heavy on the early gens. Maybe if the numbers were bumped up by 1 each, expect for the "No gens" 0 one. 6 points every minuet at five gens and so on down the list. And the "Ended the trial with the gates closed" one could be 20 points instead of only 10. I'm not really sure if it should be a straight up Iridescent on that factor alone though because you can lose four gens and jsut snowball at the end and that shouldn't be Iridescent quality. But you shouldn't be punished so badly when you spawn on the furthest point away from a three sided gen that all four Survivors spawned at so not even a minute into the game one gen is finished. If Survivor spawns got changed this wouldn't be such an issue.
Devout is the one I've got the most problem with, personally, because I play Killer so everyone can have fun, because without a Killer other people can't play Survivor. I normally let everyone leave alive* and only kill the toxic ones. As such I often only ever get Bronze, because even if I've got 8 hooks because I never saced anyone I didn't get the major points. This is fine, it is about sacrifices after all, but I think it should reward hooks more than it does sacrifices. Right now you get NO POINTS AT ALL for a hook. You only get 1 point when everyone has been hooked once and then get another 1 point after reaching nine hooks. You get 2 points per sacrifice or kill, but 0 for someone bleeding out. So if you double hook everyone that's only eight hooks and ONLY 1 POINT. I went out of my way to ensure I got two hooks on everyone and I only have 1 POINT to show for it?! Just one more hook on someone gives me 3 more points and puts me in Silver. Also if I facecamp the first person I hook I get 2 points for them dying and can face camp the second person for another 2 and bam, 4 points for Silver. By making it so you get one point per hook and one point per sacrifice you'd make it better to go for more hooks instead of camping for sacs. Change the numbers a bit so it's not 10 points needed for Iridescent but 17 - three hooks on everyone (((hook + 1, hook +1, hook +1, sac +1) x4)) + 1 for hooking everyone at least once), or maybe only 15 for more leeway so you can do Killer Adepts (or just change Killer Adepts again to not be as rough). This would mean you're somewhat more at the mercy of the Depip Squads who leave people on first hook to go to second stage or even die to slam out gens even when you are not camping but there isn't much you can do about them. And you're also at the mercy of bad solo queue Survivors doing the same but, again, not much you can do there. But it'd hit the campers somewhat and I'm all for that.
*Right now I'm trying to hit Rank 1 for the Steam Achievement so I'm chasseing them double pips and as such I'm going for 4ks at the moment.
Malicious we've talked about. The only change here is that you get double points for hitting someone who is Exposed or otherwise downed in one hit. There could also be a special bit for Plague in that she gets two points for hitting a fully infected Survivor but I can understand not wanting to tie Emblem mechanics to Killers like they do the BP categories. Or maybe just lower the numbers needed for each rank so it isn't as punishing to get net 0 points from hits as an insta-down Killer and only the 2 points from hook states.
Chaser is just about perfect. The only change I'd make is that you are not docked points if you are near a hooked Survivor while in chase. I don't want to be here but why should I let this Survivor go when they either failed to hide or ran me to the hook and deliberately stay there while their buddy is struggling?
So, yeah, most of the Emblems are fine, just need minor tweaks, but I feel that Unbroken and Devout both need major overhauls.
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@Laluzi said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2306548#Comment_2306548
Huh, interesting about Gatekeeper. If I'm honest, though, the player that holds a 3gen for 30 minutes should get iri Gatekeeper. They kept those gates damn shut. It makes more sense than a Trapper barely getting gold gatekeeper even though he 4ked at one gen left because he was too busy setting up to defend the first three gens.
Malicious emblems do account for double damage states, actually; it's Chaser that suffers for instadowns because you only get half as many chases. Plague doesn't have a great Malicious game because survivors can recover health states so easily against her and killers lose more points for heals than they gain for damage, but she suffers more in Chaser because survivors being one-taps earns less points than survivors having two health states each chase. Also, yes, sickness damage doesn't count as a won chase or a damage state via Malicious. Legion has the strongest Malicious game, because deep wound hits are persistent - mending doesn't count as a heal.
Myers tombstoning people is all kinds of weird as far as interactions go - it doesn't count as a hostile interaction, no PWYF stacks lost. But you'd probably depip even if it did register properly for Chaser and Malicious. 4 chases total, 8 stages of damage, no hook states, gold Devout because you didn't 9-hook.
Malicious only takes into account one-hits if you actually hook the Survivor in question. One hit down is +1 point, them being healed is -1 point, while a New Hook Stage is +2 points.
So if you insta-down someone but slug them for one reason or another and the person is picked up off the ground you're net 0 (because going from Dying to Injured counts) and then you're actually -1 over all if they go back to Healthy before you get back to them.
So T3 Myers is kinda punished for not taking the time to hook someone he downs right away and instead trying to make the most out of his ability. Bubba and Billy are not hit as hard but if you catch two or three Survivors in a bad spot it's really tempting to down one and go for the other(s). Plague is indeed hurt a bit more in the Chaser emblem but also gets hurt in Malicious as well if she's not hooking to try and make the best use out of a Corrupt Purge.
So, yeah, the take away there is to not play any insta-down Killer of you're chasing Iridescent Emblems.
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I agree with @C3Tooth that the real value in his bag add-ons is the maximum carry amount and not the starting traps. I personally say it should only be max two at base, not max three, with the Trapper Sack giving one additional starting trap, Trapper Bag giving both one additional starting trap and one additional carry slot and finally Stitched Bag giving two additional starting traps and one additional carry slot.
I don't agree with the skill checks, sure some people will miss the first and second and even third ones but very good Survivors will be bale to hit the first one easy enough. I think the base self escape chances should stay as they are but Wax Brick and Fastening Tools make it so the first attempt will never succeed and if both are run together they haven chance of getting out until their third try. This would make the Wax Brick a decent add-on while not making either or both of them pretty much mandatory like having a Bag is right now.
The other change I would make is that Survivors are not wounded when they enter the trap but when leaving the trap and that they are always dealt a Health State. This means that if an Injured Survivor steps in a trap they will leave that trap in the dying state, even without Honing Stone and Honing Stone wouldn't even need to be changed, because it'd just skip over the "deal one Health state" code and go right to the "Put them into Dying State" code. Even if they are saved by someone else they get a Health State of damage. But, well, they have someone right there to heal them up from Dying.
Then I would worry about the number of traps on the map and where they spawn, making the max number of traps set per map based on their size with some exceptions. The smaller indoor maps would have fewer traps in them than an equally sized outdoor map while the various The MacMillan Estate maps would have one more trap in them than other equally sized maps for a "home field advantage" sort of thing. Trap spawn locations would still be somewhat randomized but have fewer possible locations and all of them are within a set distance from the location The Trapper himself starts at, this distance also based on map size. That way he doesn't have a trap right at his feet he can pick up but all of his traps are within a close area so it is easier for him to set-up control of that area.
I have a lot of fun with Trapper, but playing without a Bag is just so painful at times. Put one down, pick one up. Put one down, pick one up. Put one down, walk halfway across the map to pick on up... .
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I understand the devs are doing a decent job at making the game. I also understand that pushing out new content every three months to make more money off of "sale the new" might not be what the devs themselves want to do but are being forced to do by people higher up in the cooperate food chain. Because, yes, I understand it is a cooperation and its goal is to make money.
What I don't agree with is that what we have gotten is a quality product. It is still fun, yes, and it mostly works, yes but the amount of problems the game has that have been allowed to stick around for years is just mind blowing to me. I'm a computer programmer who has taken college level classes on both game design and game programming and am working towards being a game programmer. Looking at old and new patch logs, old and new bug reports, old and new customer complaints and just plain playing the game myself I am professionally astounded at some of the things that hasn't been fixed yet or are allowed to recur. Players, Killer or Survivor, should not be getting stuck in the environment at all any more. A new update shouldn't make the game unstable anymore. These are just two examples of problems they have fixed in the past but have now reoccurred because they didn't take the time to make sure all of their code interacts properly, which is also something that has happened in the past. They did not learn from their past mistakes and that doesn't fill me confidence they will do a better job in the future.
As I said above I am willing to believe it is not wholly the programmer's and developer's fault, that they are being pressured from above to keep pushing out new content because the higher ups don't trust that what they currently have will keep selling and have to always be providing new content. But if the developers themselves want to do a better job at their game they need to push back against that pressure and say "No. No, we are not going to make new content. We are going to fix what we have first and then we'll make new content."
I fully understand that New Player Acquisition is really important for any multiplayer game but at a certain point you need to prioritize Old Player Retention over it or all of the old players are going to leave and tell anyone and everyone to not bother becoming a New Player because of how they treat their Old Players. I'm a "New Player", I have been playing this game for less than a year and I really love it and enjoy it but I'm already jaded about how the player base is treated and didn't buy either of the latest two DLCs because of how the updates broke the game and how the devs reacted to player concerns.
I'm going to play in and try and enjoy the anniversary event myself. I'm going to keep playing the game and trying to have fun with it. (You know, when I can actually do so if the servers are working for me.) But until the devs actually fix their game instead of just pushing out new content I'm not going to be giving them any more of my money than I already have and I encourage more people to do the same. If we hit their bottom line hard enough whomever it is that is pushing for new content over fixing existing content will have to actually listen to us and fix what is broken.
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When Trickster first came out I thought the 115% buff was one of the things he need as well but after having played him for a bit longer I understand why they made him 110% instead. Now I think he is fine at 110% base, what I don't agree with is that he gets slowed down at all when using his power. It makes sense for Huntress, because she has a "one hit, one health state" Power but Trickster needs between 7, 8, or 9 (depending on add-ons) blades to hit and dropping down to 96.5% is painful, and let's not even talk about if you hit 92%. Added on top that Survivors still get a speed boost when you fill their Laceration Meter means it's often really hard to follow up on the first wound unless you are right on top of them, which sort of defeats the point of a ranged Killer.
So I don't want his base speed to change, he's fine as a 110 Killer. But he should just always be a 110 Killer, with no chance to his speed when using his power.
The next big change which would make him more viable is Main Event not being "use-it or lose-it". I've played more Trickster than is healthy for a person and while I can't tell you the amount of games I've actually played with him I can tell you the amount of times I've have felt like I've gotten real value out of Main Event an that is "six times". If we expand that out into some value it becomes fourteen.
It just always feels like I am being actively punished for using my base Power when I don't 99 Main Event for that "perfect moment" to use the endless knives. I still don't really understand why it is "use-it or lose-it". I guess because you can just constantly get it over and over again over the course of the game but it always feels bad when I get Main Event to proc but the Survivor I am chasing is in a very bad position to use it so it just...goes away. It makes playing an already frustrating Killer feel even worse.
That's really it. Other changes would be nice, yes, but I think those two changes would make him a lot more viable than he is right now.
Laceration not going down without a Mending like action would be nice but if I had to pick I'd rather have Main Event stick around. And if I did have to define the "Lower Laceration" action I'd say it takes two seconds to remove one Charge from your own Laceration Meter while another Survivor can remove them from you at one Charge per second, with the current Laceration Decay add-ons being swapped to make it take longer.
And a lot of people want the ricochet knives to be base-kit but personally I'd rather have the shatter knives. It is just too easy to aim at the ground at someone's feet as they run and bounce the knives up into them. It's a bit more fun to try and hit people around corners when they camp a pallet but eh. I'd rather have the shatter effect so you can still "shoot their feet" for easy Laceration but it rewards hitting direct shots and also punishes Survivors for grouping up.
One other change I'd make is that his Iridescent Photocard can't injure Healthy Survivors. The whole point of them being Exposed is that you can go from Healthy to Dying so why should I be able to accidentally not be able to use it? Having to throw knives one at a time to make sure I don't overfill the L:aceration Meter is just not worth it. I understand why they made the change, it never should have prevented knives from hurting Injured Survivors in the first place but instead of doing a proper buff they did the lazy "side-ways fix" on it so now it is just even more memey than it was before.
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@Beelzeboop said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2292342#Comment_2292342
I didn't have any BP saved when I got him, so I didn't get to play with his strongest add-ons or with any good perks.
I did have a little bit of fun with M&A and Dead Rabbit, though.
Yeah, he's not the best without some BP in him. As far as "First impressions" go you're not wrong. But I want people to be aware that The Shape is a niche Killer that has a different game play style to other Killers. I, personally, find him really super fun because of how different he plays when compared to other Killers. Playing The Shape is a nice refresh when I get tired of other Killers.
Dead Rabbit is super fun. People always panic about how close you are when they hear the TR, it's great.
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@Moundshroud said:
It should work exactly the same as the Killer Perk: Insidious, i.e. there are no tokens. The Survivor must remain immobile for three seconds. The aura will remain hidden until the Survivor moves again. That's it.
The problem here is that as Survivor you never really know when Aura reading is going to come into play. You can guess, but you never really know until that token goes away.
With Insidious the Killer picks their moment and location and waits in ambush while a Survivor standing still is an easy target so the two are not really comparable to one another.
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Maybe you're just playing The Shape wrong? Hear me out.
The Shape is really good for two play styles - Perma T1 via Scratched Mirror or End Game.
In Perma T1 you have constant wall hacks and no TR so it's easy to get grabs or surprise hits. Even in the more open maps once you learn how to navigate the areas to not be seen you can get hits and grabs on totally in-the-open generators. It's a hard playstyle to adjust to compared to other Killers, the slowness alone is often quite painful, but once you get it down it is very satisfying.
On an end game build your goal isn't to get to T3 as early and as often as you can, you use it sparingly. You want out of T1 as soon as possible though, yes. But once out of T1 you stalk to 99 and then wait, getting hits and downs as you go but don't pop T3 until either you have two Survivors together or you have someone healthy who has already been hooked once. In the first scenario you can often easily down one, slug them and chase the other. If they are in a dead zone you've got two people now and even if they are not in a dead zone they are going to make that area a dead zone pretty darn fast to try and slow you down. In the second scenario you get an easy down and will likely get a kill because most Survivors wait out the T3 instead of going for the save, even if you are not camping. If they don't wait it out you can often get a hook trade if you're feeling generous or just stop the unhook.
The Shape CAN be played aggressively, but it is not his strongest kit. His insta-down is not meant to be used like the other insta-down Killers. You need to be more strategic with it, because you have a limited use of it.
@SilentPill said:
The shape isn’t THAT bad but it is kinda hard to justify him over Bubba these days. You gotta mess around for ~20-30 seconds staring at people where Bubba just has a super strong 1 shot right off the bat.
At the end of the day he still has a 1 shot although Ghostface with Lethal Pursuer just spanks him cause he can get the stealth 1 shot off in the first 15~ seconds of the game.
The big issue that people overlook is that Stalking Survivors from a distance is really bad. You get less Evil Within the further away you are. If you can get right up next to a Survivor, which isn't all that hard in T1, then it only takes a few seconds to get out of T1 and into T2. And if you forego getting a hit you can easily get into your first T3 off of a single Survivor really early. This is without either of the two gain rate add-ons and with them it is even faster.
Another thing most people don't consider if that in T2 you only have a 16 meter TR, this makes it much easier to sneak up on people for Stalk or hits than with other M1 Killers. Also in T2 you vault ever so slightly faster than normal which can really throw off some Survivors if you time it right, especially in Shack. And never underestimate the power of a double vault at an L wall, this is often better than moonwalking because people rarely ever do it so no one really expects it.
The Shape does have an aggressive playstyle that can work when done right but they are better suited to a longer game play style. When playing The Shape you need to be willing to lose three or even all five gens before your first kill but he's a very heavy snowball Killer. Slap on Blood Warden and you can go from a 0k to a 4k out of no where. Won't win you any Gatekeeper points but The Shape is not the Killer to be playing if you want to pip. No insta-down Killer is who you want to be playing if you want to pip.
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As a Killer Main I agree that Distortion is a bit on the weaker side with only three tokens and no way of gaining them back once they are used.
I'd say remove scratchmarks bit and add in some method of regaining tokens, up-to a maximum of three. Just some idea on what can give tokens; whenever - a generator is finished (doesn't have to be finished by you), you cleanse a totem, you perform a safe unhook and slash or take a protection hit, you heal another Survivor a health state, you are hooked, someone else is hooked, you've been in the TR while not in chase for 15 seconds, you stun the Killer (pallet, flashlight, Head On, doesn't matter).
There are so many ways you could regain tokens. And it really does need some way of regaining tokens to be really viable.
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@Mooks said:
Doing gens alone doesn’t really bring many points.
Hook safes, healing, killer interactions or totems bring good amount of points.
Consider We Are Gonna Live Forever(David King teachable perk) to get bonus points for unhooking/protection hits and Prove Thyself (Dwight teachable perk) for getting faster repair points
I just want to note that Prove Thyself gives bonus points in Altruism if you are co-op healing, but doesn't make it faster. Co-op healing is very fast though so the boost is somewhat minor but can add up over time. Also, unlike We're Gonna Live Forever Prove Thyself only works up the normal 8k cap per category, it just makes it easier to get there. So together with WGLF you can easily get 16k BP from Objective alone and another 12-14k from Altruism easily by getting four Safe Unhooks and slash or Protection hits.
Another thing to take note of is that your POINT VALUE on the Final tab screen in the end game lobby will still only show what you got in the base categories and does not include WGLF or any offering bonuses. The score screen that covers how well you did in each category shows you how many actual Bloodpoints you got after taking into account WGLF stacks and your offering.
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It's The Pig's original daily all over again. But at least that one could be done in one Trial if you were a jerk about it and a bit lucky. This one that you literally can't even do in one Trial is just silly.
About as expected really.
I agree with you that it should be "Hit infected Survivors with your tentacle 4 time(s)" instead of what it is right now.
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I agree with everyone else here. The new map is better visually and navigation wise, I can not tell you how many times I got turned around and lost track of where I was and what direction I needed to move to get to where I wanted to go in the old map. It wasn't mostly because it was so hard to see anything in the old version but the floorplan and where the stairs were located wasn't also that clear.
The new version is a lot nicer looker, easier to find where you are and where the points of interest are so you don't get lost as often if ever. I think I've gotten "lost" on the new version three, maybe four times and that was only because of the breakable walls blocking my path to where I wanted to go at the time and not because I couldn't see where I wanted to go. The new map is very boring though, with nothing but pallets that offer very little in any actual gameplay because they are all very safe or obviously unsafe so you drop them and leave the tile, no chance for mindgames at semi-safe or fake-safe pallets. The amount of pallets is also a problem.
I'm sure a happy middle ground between the old version and the current version could be reached, but we'll never see that happen.
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@Milo said:
Well, after I saw it in tutorial I forgot it existed... So either it was useless or feels natural to me, take your pick.
I see it every single game as Killer unless no pallets get dropped, which happens but is very rare.
I just don't understand why they added a visual to this action. It didn't need one. It was perfectly fine as it was without it.
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I am not a fan of the "Add a Perk to fix it" solution. That's what the devs already do and it never works because you only have four Perk slots and often times there isn't any room for a "niche" Perk you might not even use in a game. The sad fact of it is that if you are not running either Ruin or Pop or BOTH then you have to be a Tier S or A Killer AND a very skilled player to stand a chance. If you are not that skilled or are playing one of the weaker Killers you really don't stand a chance without Undying Ruin or Pop and good mobility. So that's two Perk slots gone right there. Then you add in tracking and utility and so on and you just don't have the room for something that might be a "dead" Perk in the Trial.
I play Mirror Myers often, and Pig often as well. You just need to be more aware that someone has Spin Chill and look away to fool it. It's part of learning the meta game and is part of the overall skill cap of being a Killer. Doesn't make it any less annoying.
On another note there are no "doors", they are called breakable walls after all. They are literal boarded up doorways with no doors in them. So there is nothing to "open" to be sneaky through.
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@Onykron said:
I always wonder why killers have to justify killing survivors, you never see people questioning why people do gens or unhook.
Most survivors would rather put the weight of their misplay on the killer's shoulders instead of owning up to their mistakes, a huge part of playing killer is learning how to punish dumb plays but you will never get any sympathy. So just do what you want, you can let them roam free or destroy them, just remember no survivor will ever thank you for your kindness and they will be more than happy to teabag at exit gates .
Just want to say that the "no survivor will ever thank you" part is not right, it should be "most survivors will never thank you".
Because when I play Survivor I make sure to thank Killers for not camping or tunneling when they don't do so. I have also had Survivors do the same to me because I didn't camp or tunnel.
I had one game yesterday where the person playing Adam was so happy in after game chat because in his previous game he'd been camped by an Insidious Bubba but here I was a Fair Play "Based Blood Warden Myers" (in his words) who hadn't camped or tunneled at all all game and had him dead to rights at the end of the game. But I respected him coming back for the save on Meg who I had gotten thanks to Blood Warden. He came back for her even though Blood Warden was done so he could have dipped (both doors were open) and it was obvious I had a T3 ready to go (I'd very very obvious in my stalking of him after all) but I let him AND Meg out alive because I felt like respecting his play.
So, yeah, some people will thank you for the kindness. Beyond just giving last person Hatch, most people do thank you for that. Others will go beyond that to thank you for the smaller things.
But sadly the MAJORITY of Survivors will spit in your face for showing them kindness. And often times you won't know until it is too late to take your kindness back. (While at an open Exit Gate and they're tea-bagging more than a stereotypical British person.)
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I do like how you "nerf" some Perks, not many will even consider doing that when they want to "balance" things. But, yes, those Perks are very strong and to be balanced they need to be weakened.
So, let's get into some comments.
Balanced Landing - Have a passive 25% stagger reduction and when non-Exhausted you get an extra 50% stagger reduction and no grunts.
Desperate Measures - Either your suggested change OR make it "for each injured, hooked, dying, killed, or sacrificed Survivor" so you keep the current boost when others are out of the Trial.
Distortion - Also gain a token on a protection hit, but tokens are capped at 3.
Hope - Always moving at 107% is going to be really rough for Killers to deal with, especially if it is at the point the Exit Gates are powered. Maybe make it read "As soon as the Exit Gates are powered: (bullet point) You gain a 5/6/7 % Haste Status Effect for 120 seconds. (bullet point) You run 5% faster." So for that 120 seconds you're moving at 112% at a run but as soon as the Haste effect wears off you only run at 105%.
(Added after reading Streetwise) Leader - Make it 16 metres to match Streetwise (and Vigil).
Lucky Break - I had a full body shudder at seeing your suggestion. As a Killer Main I am so, so, SO happy more people don't run this Perk. Most everyone seems to be sleeping on it, which I am very fine with. Having it refresh over time just, no. Everyone would run it and Killers would never be able to find anyone when combined with something like (the buffed) Distortion and Quick & Quiet. As soon as the Survivor breaks line of sight and can get to an even half-way descent hiding spot they are gone. It refreshing over time is a nightmare. That said I do think it could use a small change, maybe something like adding 20 seconds to its timer each time you are Hooked? That would give you an extra 40 seconds total after your second Hook. Make it so this "extra time" can go above the "base time" of 60 seconds to make up for if you are just in a bad position and can't get away from the Killer after being hit. Or go with your suggestion of it "refreshing" but also go with @MadLordJack's bit of lowering the timer on it. Maybe have it read "Whenever you are in the Injured State Lucky Break activates: (bullet point) Bleeding and Scratch Marks are suppressed for 4/6/8 seconds after which Lucky Break deactivates and becomes disabled. (New line) @madkingcrow Lucky Break is reenabled if it is disabled if you have been in the Healthy State for 8 seconds after having recovered from the Injured State."
Repressed Alliance - Make it 50 seconds of interaction with gens, 40 is a bit low for being able to stop the Killer form interacting with a gen for 30 seconds but I agree that the current 60 is indeed too much.
Solidarity - One or the other. Either it works with a med-kit and does 50% of healing or it doesn't work with a med-kit and does 75%. It could even have both effects and read "When injured, healing another Survivor also heals you with a Conversion rate of: (bullet point) 65/70//75% without using a Med-Kit (bullet point) 40/45/50% while using a Med-Kit"
Stake Out - Max of 5 tokens.
Technician - Only take the normal 10% penalty, remove the extra based on Tier and instead of reducing the regression penalty instead reduce the normal 3 second non-interaction time to 1.5 at T3.
Tenacity - Uhh, Unbreakable at its best only gives you 35%, so 50% here is pretty crazy. 85% recovery when used together? Make Tenacity so you always crawl 50% faster at base and instead the Tier is recovery speed that matches Unbreakable at 25/30/35% so when combined you only have 70% faster recovery. This makes the two Perks almost identical expect for what they give you "at base" but they are already very similar so it doesn't matter too much. With so many Perks in the game you're bound to have overlapping Perks.
Vigil - Make it 30% and bump the range to 16 metres (to match Leader and Streetwise). Making Vigil 50% seems a bit much, especially when it comes to Exhaustion. Maybe up it to 35%, because 40% feels a bit iffy. I do agree that the current 20% isn't good enough though.
Wake Up! - 25% faster. Maybe up to 40% but anything more than that is pretty nuts. I agree that 15% is too low but opening an Exit Gate should be somewhat risky unless the Killer is on the other side of the map.
Anything I didn't mention that you did I agree with you one-hundred percent on.
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And below are ones you already though were balanced and thus didn't list yourself but I feel need a change.
Alert - Make it 8 seconds, because sometimes 5 seconds isn't enough time to even notice it triggers unless you are already looking that way.
For the People - Only 80 seconds of being broken.
Left Behind - See the Hatch within 64 meters.
Self-Care - 55%. Being 50% is a bit low and painful to see people using. If it was just a bit faster but still not as good as being healed by someone else I wouldn't mind my teammates using it so much when I play Survivor or feel so bad for the other Survivors when I see it as Killer.
This Is Not Happening - Also increases the odds of triggering Skill Checks while injured by 25%. What's the point of having larger Great zones if you never get any Skill checks?
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And special bound round! Kindred is removed from the game and all Survivors not on hooks see each other's Auras when anyone is on a Hook. The Killer's Aura is not revealed.
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I'm a Killer Main and am highly anti-tunnel anti-camp. That said if I see someone not making any attempt at stealth when I'm hooking someone else I won't give them the free unhook and will go after them. If they loop me near their teammate that's their problem. But unless the Survivor on the hook is toxic later I'll often give them one free "chase escape" because their teammate was so rude to them.
In the end you play how you want to play, I can only ask that you don't hard camp or hard tunnel, as neither are fun for the person on the receiving end. Hard camping is when you don't leave the hook at all, just standing there. Hard tunneling is when you find two people, one of whom just got unhooked and you go for the person just unhooked, not the other person right there. If you spot someone in the area of the person you just hooked and go into chase with them and they run you around the hook you're not camping. If you come back to the area someone just got unhooked in and find them alone with no one else around that's not tunneling, they just are very unlucky, have crap teammates or ran away from their teammate to go solo for some reason.
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@Freddo said:
The Executioner?
I blame the almost two AM.
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@Saltjar34 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2241447#Comment_2241447
But then the problem is, what about the No Mither player? Wouldn't their existence mean that a 4-man slug can't end the game because they can always recover?
Short answer: Yes.
Longer answer: Survivors with No Mither still bleed out on the ground, but you are right in that the game wouldn't just insta-end because they can pick themselves up. So, yes, when someone has No Mither this solution to prevent tiresome four man slugs doesn't work. But No Mither is not a meta-Perk and you only ever see it on 1) People doing Adept David, 2) People doing the No Mither Challenge, 3) People with a gimicky "while injured" build, and 4) Cheaters using lag switching. So it not like this would be happening every Trial or all that often.
If the Killer isn't wanting the long wait we have now on a four person slug they would have to actually Hook the No Mither player. As soon as that person is Hooked with everyone else on the ground with no way to Heal then the No Mither person is instantly Sacrificed and everyone else bleeds out faster than normal or just straight up dies after a bit of grace "Do you want to hook?" time. If The Killer does want the long wait for the Bleed Out then they just save the No Mither person for last and stand over them, knocking them back down whenever they get up.
On another note we can't just not do something because of edge cases, Perks already change the base rules of the game so it is not like there being one or two Perks that make it so something doesn't happen every time is a big deal.
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@ Antares2332 said:
True. It happens to me a lot lately, the only map that has well-hidden totems is Swamp.
It is funny you should mention that, because the Swamp maps are really the only maps I remember where Totems spawn. They tend to spawn in the corners near hooks and in the center in the boulder clusters near shack. There are some odd-ball spawns, like on the bottom floor of that one two-floor building that is near the boat or in the various random walls scattered about but for the most part they are the easiest ones for me to remember and find when I'm not running any Totem finding Perks.
Midwhich and Treatment Theatre are the two maps I think are best for Totems, most of the time. Every now and then in the Theatre you'll get a Totem just out in the open near a loop or the middle of the hall but often they are pretty well hidden. Even when they spawn near a gen they tend to be tucked into corners or behind loops instead of just right out in the open like in other maps. Midwhich is basically "Hope you have a map or Detective's" because Small Game won't be of much help when it doesn't care about what floor the Totem is on, just that you are looking in it's direction. Counterforce will help a bit with that, provided you can even find the first totem.
The Underground Complex is somewhat decent, but all of the spawn locations are kinda out in the open from at least one not-odd line of sight and all of the ones that are sort of hidden are easy enough to remember where to look, mostly in the little dead-end corners of various rooms.
But yeah, most of the maps just have really obvious Totems. And it really sucks.
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@Northener1907 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2242128#Comment_2242128
And i am really worried about Counterforce. It will be so op. You will get faster and faster when you cleanse totems. And when you clean one of them, next target's aura will shows you. For this perk you just need to find first totem, that's all.
I think hex totems will die. They were already dead so many times but after new chapter, we can say "good bye" to all hex totems except Haunted.
While I agree that Counterforce is going to cause a lot of Hex Builds problems it isn't as bad as you make it out. First off, the Survivor only gets faster for each Totem they cleanse, so if someone else is running Small Game or Detective's Hunch or Counterforce or has a Map and is also going after Totems then whoever has Counterforce won't be super fast on the last one. Second, Counterforce shows the furthest Totem from the one they just finished, which means it is going to be all the way across the map most of the time. Unless they head straight for it and don't get side tracked then someone else will cleanse it or they'll forget where it was.
So, it will be annoying yes, but not as bad as it could be. They could get faster for every Totem cleansed no matter who does it or always see the aura and so on. I think it should be one or the other, either you get faster for each one you do OR you see the next one but not both.
On the main issue of the thread though, I whole heartily agree. There are more than enough ways of finding Totems now that they don't need to have easy-to-find locations. I can see why it would have been a problem in the earlier days of the game when you didn't have any many options on finding Totems as you do now and how people just know where Totems spawn on the maps. I personally don't have the best memory in the world and there are certain maps that I just know where to go to find Totems even without some other means of finding them.
So, yes, Totems should not spawn right next to gens or on the top of a hill out in the open. And there should be a bit more randomness to where they do spawn so you can know "Hey, a Totem may spawn here" but there is less of a chance for one to do so at any given spot.
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@Saltjar34 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2233788#Comment_2233788
"It is only once all four people are down with no means of recovery is it a real problem. And that is where you want a shorter timer and not a longer one"
People have suggested that when all survivors don't have any means to recover themselves while everyone is slugged, they should get to press a button to bleed out faster
The game can check those things, so:
IF -> All Survivors are in Dying StateAND -> No Survivor has a means of moving themselves from Dying to InjuredTHEN -> All Survivors start bleeding out faster OR All Survivors Die in one/two minutesI mean, the game already checks for "No Injured or Dying Survivors -> All Survivors on Hook instantly Sacrificed" so having the same thing for people on the ground shouldn't be TOO hard to do. You don't want it to be instant, that way the Killer can get the hooks, but you also don't want the wait time to be too long so the Four Slugs doesn't take as long.
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@Chaoxide said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2232064#Comment_2232064
i just think it should be longer due to the very much disliked slug style becoming a major staple in the game and thus i wouldnt want it to get encouraged, its not fun to just lay on the ground. With a longer timer it means you still have to heal more but slugging isnt as strong as it could become.
With a longer Bleed Out timer slugging is even more annoying, because once all four people are down and no one has an unused Unbreakable or an active Soul Guard then your only two options are 1) Wait to bleed out or 2) DC and take the hit there.
One or two or even three slugs isn't too bad, the Survivors can recover from that. It is only once all four people are down with no means of recovery is it a real problem. And that is where you want a shorter timer and not a longer one. You have to keep in mind that if the Killer is already going to slug everyone they won't care if it takes twice as long, for a lot of them that would probably be even better than it is now. Because they don't care about killing all four Survivors, but making the players suffer. Killer players who do this won't care about how long it takes, because to them they can just get another game right away to do it again while they know Survivors have to wait in queue for another chance at having fun.
So while I think that if you're Bleeding Out while Injured the timer for such should indeed be longer than it is now but it should not take any longer than it already does to Bleed Out while Dying. So if you double the time we have now and make that the Bleed Out timer and you Bleed at 1x the current rate while Injured* and 2x the current rate while Dying then a full four slugs would actually take ever so slightly less time to fully bleed out because of the bit lost while Injured before the second hit. Unless insta-downed of course.
*Again, excluding Perks that would be changed alongside the base mechanics so they prevent Bleeding Out.
@Mat_Sella said:
so killer kills two people, last two survivors are injured.
Killer slugs one and auto wins because they're both going to bleed out eventually.
Also Doctor. If one survivor is madness III and he shocks them for the duration of the timer they're both still going to bleed out because there is no way to heal.
Would No Mither be immune to this timer? Is there any compensation for perks that apply the Broken status effect to yourself?
there's a lot of things that aren't being thought out here.
The "Two dead, one Dying, one Injured" isn't an auto-win for the Killer, unless they just camp the person on the ground so they can't be healed, and some Killers do that now anyways instead of playing Hatch Game with the final Survivor. As for Doctor, well, they can already just Madness Lock people and if they are doing that then everyone else should be doing gens and if it's only that one person left and they are being blocked in and EGC hasn't started then that's reportable for holding the game hostage. And if it's down to two people then it's no different from when someone just slugs all the remaining Survivors so what is your point? Killers already do stuff like this.
And, yes, various Perks would need to be updated as well, pretty much any Survivor Perk that makes you Broken prevents you from Bleeding Out while Broken. No Mither is the only one that you are forever Broken, all the others you'd need to get healed once Broken wears off as you will start Bleeding Out again once you are only Injured. I'd rather Broken not just straight up prevent Bleeding Out because that'd be bad for Plague and I'd rather Survivor have more reason to Cleanse than less.
And we are thinking of them, the whole point of a DISCUSSION thread it to work on the idea and go over everything that would be required. The goal isn't to make some perfect new mechanic that will solve everything for everyone but to have something that reasonably slows the game down a little but doesn't make it unplayable for Survivors.
Right now Survivors have very little reason to take the time to heal, especially at higher levels of skill where they can loop the Killer while injured and not be too worried about getting hit. If they had a reason to heal that would mean they would have to take the time to do so, and the only reason that would work is "If you don't do it you loose the game"**.
Even so, if the Survivors are good enough they can even still ignore healing and just pound on gens if they've got the right mix of Perks and items to get them done fast enough to not bleed out from it.
** "If you don't do this thing you can't win the game." is the only other reason that would work but that is more "can't fix gens or open an Exit Gate or leave through Hatch" than "you die if you don't". Not being able to win compared to outright losing are very close but not the same thing.
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I do like this suggestion, because it would make healing more of a priority and help slow down the game just a bit without being too oppressive. It'd also encourage people to cleanse more against Plague which is a bonus in my book.
I'd say just double the bleed out timer to 480 seconds and while you are Injured and Bleeding* you loose Blood at what is the current rate while Dying and change it so that while Dying you loose Blood at twice that rate. This would mean being slugged still takes the same amount of time while on the ground but takes twice as long if you just run around Injured and Bleeding* all the time.
The Haemorrhage status makes you Bleed Out at 1.5 times normal rate while Injured, and doesn't change the rate you Bleed Out while Dying. Not many people run Blood Echo or Sloppy Butcher for the Haemorrhage part of those Perks and it'd make all of the various Haemorrhage add-ons actually mean something more than just for tracking.
*Babysitter, Lucky Break, No Mither, and Self-Preservation all stop Bleeding and should also stop the Blood meter from going down while Injured. While Dying you still loose Blood at what will be the new rate, twice as fast as what it is now. Lucky Break doesn't really need another buff but we'll just have to take that hit, it's still only 60 seconds over all. And this would be the only way that No Nither would even be viable, and it might not really be a buff... In a better world I'd say that maybe a bit could be added onto No Mother that you only bleed at at half the normal rate while on the ground, so it'd take twice as long for you to Bleed Out while dying but we don't live in a better world and have to deal with cheaters who use No Mither in combination with hacks to avoid being slugged while they can't be hooked because of the hacks.
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@latinfla4 1) I understand English is not everyone first language and that you are probably working on getting better at it but right now you're English is a bit stilted and hard to understand.
2) Just stop. There is no "challenge". A lot of the community doesn't even check these forums. Some use these forms, others use Reddit, other use other places.
3) Again, just stop. Maybe this is a misunderstanding because of your not so good English but it sounds like you are being toxic to Killers who have done nothing to you because you got toxic Survivors while as Killer. Great job being toxic to someone who doesn't deserve it. That is sarcasm by the way.
4) Just don't eve be toxic as Survivor. Being toxic as Survivor is just counter to everything you claim you are trying to accomplish.
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@latinfla4 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2220613#Comment_2220613
So you are toxic as a killer if they are toxic to you but turn the other cheek when you play survivor and a killer is toxic to you? Why not turn the cheek in both instances?
Mainly because I know that Survivor is the actual power role of the game* and not Killer.
A lot of Killers need to camp and tunnel and slug to stand even a fraction of a chance of winning because they don't have the right Perks they need to slow the game down enough or they don't know the Killer they are playing as well enough or they are just playing a low class Killer like Trapper or Trickster. I personally don't have all Perks on all characters so I know the pain of playing someone without Ruin or Pop or any actually halfway decent Perk. There have been a lot of games where I might as well have played Perkless for all the good the Perks I did have did me.
That is the reason for both not being a toxic Survivor and for being a toxic Killer when the Survivors are toxic first. The Survivors are only toxic because they know they have a decent chance of getting away with it. So by being toxic they make themselves a target for me to Prove Them Wrong. If the game was actually Killer sided then there would be a lot less room for Survivors to be toxic in the first place.
But the key factor is I don't start as a toxic Killer. Even when I'm playing someone without Ruin or Pop or I'm playing someone like Clown or Trapper I don't camp and I try hard not to tunnel and if I do tunnel I'll let myself get hit with DS and if they don't have it I'll slug them instead of rehooking.
You say you want people in the community to be better, but you yourself ARE NOT being better. Don't be a toxic Survivor, at least to a Killer who doesn't deserve it. Sure, go full on biosafety level 5 on a Killer if they camp or tunnel someone first if you want, but don't just start being toxic to someone who hasn't been toxic to you first. THAT is how the cycle starts anew with someone and DOES. NOT. HELP.
*I'm talking at the higher levels of play, not even the top ranks but the skill you should be at in Purple Ranks, if the actual ranking system of the game worked right. If you have a team of four decent Survivors, even with no coms, then you'd need to be a Red Rank equivalent Killer to stand a chance with no slow-down Perks. At Red Ranks all across the board you basically can't win without slowdown unless you're Spirit or Nurse or really, really, really good with the Killer you are playing.
It is only at the lower ranks that Killer is the power role.
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@Haddix said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2220633#Comment_2220633
uh no, the wiki tells you numbers. hover over the "slightly increases" part. it tells you 10%.
the wiki has literally every number in the game for everything. it even has an entire movement speeds page where you're given every possible movement speed in the game, like when x killer is charging x power, canceling it, survivors under x effect while walking/running/crouching, Michael while stalking and passively stalking, etc.
don't be so confident with your answers at first. start asking questions before that.
@Alionis said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2220633#Comment_2220633
The wiki tells you on literally every add-on's page that you have to hover your mouse to reveal the values. What more do you need? Flashing arrows pointing you to that information text?
They could make it a bit more clear this is a thing the site uses, as I had no idea it was a thing. The words being bolded don't immediately tell me it's a scroll over link, I normally expect that to be an underline, as underline tends to mean "this is a link". Normally a hyperlink to another page yes but a scroll over pop-up link is not unexpected when you can't "click" the underlined part.
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@Samtar said:
While I agree this would be better, You can currently look this up on the wiki.
Which wiki? Because the wiki I use (https://deadbydaylight.fandom.com/wiki/) only tells you the in-game text of the add-ons and not what "slightly": et-all actually means. Like, how much movement speed do I get from using Tacky Earrings? What do I move at while stalking with them on? Without them? The wiki doesn't tell me the numbers, just what I've already been told in game. And what I've been told in game isn't as helpful as it should be.
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You make the game worse by not continuously being part of the solution.
I'm a Killer Main, no matter what my previous games have been like I don't start toxic to the Survivors, even if they had been toxic to me in a previous game. Every game is a fresh start. And I especially don't start toxic to people I've never played against before. But if someone is toxic to me then I'll tunnel and slug them for a bit and not feel too bad about it.
When I play Survivor I'm not toxic to the Killer, even if they are a face camper or tunneler. I don't clicky-clicky or t-bag or vault point or any of that. I don't show toxic behavior, even if they are themselves being toxic.
Being toxic to Killers because Survivors were toxic to you as Killer only keeps the cycle of toxicity going. You have to be better than it.
Being toxic to Survivors because Killers were toxic to you as Survivor only keeps the cycle of toxicity going. You have to be better than it.
You have to be the better person.
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I am still having this issue. At this point I wish it would just close out the game for me because whenever it happens I just have to reload so I can quit.
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Welcome to Dead By Daylight.
This is just how matchmaking is.
There is no answer, only Rainbow Ranks or All Reds vs a Green.
Either deal with it or stop playing. At this point I personally about to just stop playing but I'm chasing that high I got when I first started playing and was actually having fun with the game.
MMR is a not-funny joke so don't hold out any hope for that.
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You know what you get when Killers don't have any slow down Perks? Tunnled. And slugged. That's what you get.
Because if we (I'm a Killer Main) don't have any Perks that slow things down our only other option to slow things down is to remove people from the game ASAP and that means you tunnel* the first person you ever hook because they are the closest one to dying, or the second depending on how things work out. Because a Survivor can't work on gens.
The other option is to just slug two or three people at a time, because you save time by not having to take people to a hook and while they are laying bleeding on the ground guess what they are not doing? Repairing a generator. And while being a slug isn't as deadly as being on the hook, it won't make another Survivor get off a generator to go "save", it can still be a danger depending on how often or how long people get slugged.
If you want there to be fewer slow down Perks there needs to be something else that makes the game not be done in five minuets, something that gives the Killer a chance of winning. Because without slow down Perks you have to be a really damn good Killer to even stand a chance of winning against decent Survivors. And if you're up against good Survivors then you don't stand a chance of winning at all without slowdown.
*Even when I don't have Ruin or Pop or any slow down Perks I have chosen to not tunnel someone unless they are toxic to me, t-bagging at vaults or spam clicking their flashy. This has caused me a lot of really [bad word] short games because I have no gen pressure so everyone gets out fast. And in a lot of those end game chats the Survivors ask me why I didn't tunnel when I had a lot of chances to do so and if I had I would have snowballed and me the game. I don't because tunneling isn't fun, I also play Survivor sometimes and it's no fun to not have a chance to play because you got found first. But you know something else that's not fun? Standing no chance of winning without slowdown perks. I do wish we didn't have to use them. But we do. Because this game isn't balanced and isn't as skill based as a lot of people wish it was.
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@A_Skinny_Legend said:
Hopefully mmr will give you players on your skill level. I've never had it that bad tbh.
*chuckles at the funny joke, then realizes it's not a joke*
The joke is the devs ever getting MMR working right.
The other joke is thinking there are not SWF bully squads at every level of play. Some people with thousands of hours make smurf accounts just to bully low rank Killers. I'm a less than 1k hour player and I've run into Survivors as Killer who admitted to having done such and Killers as Survivor who also admitted to doing the same but reversed. Because some people are just [bad word]s who like to make other people suffer.
To the OP: I agree that after a certain point of no gen getting finished and no one being hooked the EGC should just automatically trigger, forcing the Survivors to finish the gens and get out or die. This would prevent both Killer and Survivors from holding the game hostage without having to DC.
I think fifteen minutes of no gen finished and no hook should be fine.
This would also help in those cases with that one Urban Evading immersed you just can't find when neither of you can find the hatch... .
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@Seraphor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2175811#Comment_2175811
"Unlock a Tier I perk of your choice" would be an amazing idea.
It wouldn't be so OP that you can jus select your best perks right away before level 15, because you still need to tier them up to III, but at least you get a rudimentary version of that perk to use if you need it. Plus they could always just not appear until level 40 or so.
It'd be really nice if it was all Tiers, not just the first one. But have it it something like "When you reach level 20 sometimes in the Bloodweb instead of a normal Perk to buy you'll see a Tier 1 Perk Wild Card, this can be used to buy any Perk that you could normally find in your Bloddweb* that you do not already have at Tier 1 or higher. At level 30 you know have a chance of seeing Tier 2 Perk Wild Cards and at level 40 Tier 3 Perk Wild Cards will spawn, these Wild Cards function like their Tier 1 counterpart but for their own respective Tiers. All Wild Cards will only spawn if you have not already gotten all Perks of their Tiers. If you only have Tier 1 Perks left to get on a character you will not see Tier 2 or 3 Wild Cards until you have a Perk at Tier 2, the same is true for the other Wild Cards."
*This means that if you haven't unlocked say, Bamboozle, you cannot buy Bamboozle on anyone other than The Clown with a Wild Card.
Though really I just wish they would do away with the Tiers all together. When picking my loadout I always feel bad for not taking all Tier 3s but sometimes I just have crap Tier 3s.
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@[Deleted User] said:
I can't imagine how terrible and overwhelming it must feel to new players. Would honestly love to hear from somebody who's just started, how they feel about it.
Some consideration should be given to rethinking all this, because it's really the new players they need to keep interested the most. Or maybe this long unlocking process IS what's keeping them interested as well? Some kind of business analysis of this would be great.
If anyone knows of some article or a video presentation on this topic, please let me know.
I started playing the game late November of 2020 so I'm still pretty "new" to the game, even though I've sunk way to many hours into the game in such a short amount of time.
Anyways.
I didn't have too much of a problem with the Bloodweb at first but then I worked out that items are not shared between the characters. This makes a bit of sense for the Killers because they all have different items but it really confused me when it came to the Survivors, because they all have the same items. I am including add-ons when I say "items".
Then I got just what the Perk Tiers were for, which is to say "Nothing more than making the grind take longer" so that made me a bit upset. I mean, yes, I can understand needing to unlock things on various characters, I am fine with that, but having to unlock the thing I want to use three times is a bit much, especially when there is so much to unlock.
I think the Bloodweb is an alright idea in theory, but fails in implementation. I don't mind things being somewhat random but I'd rather have something like 'Unlock a Tier 1 Perk of your choice' or 'Gain a green item of your choice' in some places. In addition to the "Mystery Boxes". Just something that ensures we can actually get what we want to get instead of it always be totally random.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2174105#Comment_2174105
This forum doesn't use BB code, you can italicise words by putting them in asterisks and then hitting enter, or just select what you want to format and you can choose from a pop up menu to bold, italicise or
strikethrough.So what you're saying is that it would be PC sided. I don't know if that's better or worse, seeing as SWFs can be cross platform.
Chat lobby is only available for PC players. So it shouldn't really be available at all.
I'm just so used to typing in the codes... .
I think X-box can also chat with X-box, I few players who say they are on "console" can chat with each other, just no anyone who is "cross-play". It may be the PlayStation people who can chat with each other, or maybe just those on Window Store which would again be PC but not Steam.
The whole issue with chat is just confusing to me. Like, I don't understand why it is so hard to have chat on all system and it work together. But then again I almost failed the one networking class I took so I really shouldn't be talking about networking.