thesuicidefox
thesuicidefox
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@Eguzky said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/513888#Comment_513888
Except The Pig can remove her terror radius and red stain at will, and the Survivors can't break it by looking at her.
So why would people think this would be broken on Ghostface?
Yea but she can't inflict Exposed.
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Pipping is a win.
As survivor, pipping shows you did a lot of work that game. You need to do gens, make saves, run from the killer, and survive a certain amount of time or escape. It gets harder as you rank up.
As killer, pipping shows you did your job as killer. It is possible to pip without killing anyone, you just have to make the game last a really long time and make sure you get at least 1 hook on everyone.
Survivors that play only to escape or killers that only play for the 4k are fools honestly, because that is a very unrealistic goal to have all the time. Sometimes you will die as survivor, and you have no control over it. Sometimes survivors get away and you have no control over it. It happens, let it go, learn from your mistakes, and move on.
Pipping is also the only win condition the game considers. You can 4k and still depip, so would that really be a win? No, not really.
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@TheShape78 said:
I disagree. It just seems too gimmicky in my opinion . The best solution is to just remove the entire spotting aspect altogether.
I think the reason they did it is because otherwise Ghostface would be like T2 Myers always just about ready to pop T3. So having the ability to break out makes sense to me, it just seems like the way they chose to do it doesn't work.
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IMHO killer mains need to play survivor... SOLO SURVIVOR... up to rank 1 (not red ranks, RANK 1) if they want to be a better killer. It seems to me that a lot of killers complain about things survivors do and don't get how to counter them or generate pressure properly. They might THINK that they do, but unless you have the ability to think like a survivor you will have a hard time. Tracking, chasing, objectives, you have to know how the survivor thinks and plays before you can really be a threat.
Likewise playing killer to red ranks will make you a better survivor. Just to understand the killer's perspective is enough to make you a better survivor. But then knowing what the killer is thinking at any given time helps a lot too. And it would give survivors a better understanding of the game as a whole, because sometimes things just happen a certain way it's not explicitly the killer being toxic with camping/tunneling.
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The reason developers don't do stuff like this is because even the best players at a game do not offer good solutions to problems. In fact many have very stupid ideas that would never work in the game. They can help devs identify the issues, but that's about it.
I worked in game dev for a short time. It's not like you think it is. 5 years ago I would have agreed with everything Scott said, but today no. Devs should DEFINITELY not let any players in on the concept design process. That's honestly a very stupid idea, as it just creates a risk of leaks for them and won't do anything to make the game better.
What they SHOULD do is bring in top players to play the current state of the game and give feedback on the issues. Then look at the biggest issues, look at the games they played to see exactly what is happening, then come up with solutions themselves. We need a game health check more than we need "pros" deciding what should and shouldn't be in the game.
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@Peanits said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/511457#Comment_511457
Those fake pallets disappear when you get near them. Freddy is able to place pallets that look and act just like regular pallets, only they explode into blood when dropped (and do not stun the killer). This means that a survivor could end up looping a pallet that isn't actually there, making it very easy to get a hit.
The new meme for Freddy will be Spirit Fury/Enduring but respect pallets, even the fake ones.
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Change extra blink add-ons to increase base movement speed.
Change range add-ons to not stack and make the accuracy penalty a real thing.
That's all she needs.
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Because she pulls double duty as surv and killer.
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@GrootDude said:
If this is true, three protection hits would definitely kill it.
It should be 2 protection hits, and they have to fix how protection hits are registered by the game to make it more consistent.
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The only change I would like to see for pink mori is that you can't mori someone until ALL survivors are hooked once or EGC is triggered. And yes DC should count as a hook in this case.
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There are differences due to the platform, but in terms of the balance or design of the game everything is the game.
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@ClogWench said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/510968#Comment_510968
Limiting it to 3 random killers is an awful way to do it. Survivors don't even need SWF to outmatch most killers, and they also all play the same with only minor differences through perks. Killers play drastically different and if you're a Billy or Hag main but get let's say Spirit, Leatherface and Legion, you're already playing a losing game because your options are either weak or something you're unfamiliar with. And that's just one point that's already flawed.
Hence why survivors are limited the way they are.
What you are asking for is basically to make 4k's a common thing, which means the win comes down to killer NOT survivor. You can't put the burden of the win is on killer, BECAUSE IT IS INHERENTLY UNFAIR. If we have a rule set where 4k's were less common then the burden of the win is ALWAYS on the survivors and killers play against that. We don't want every game to be a 4k or a 4e.
You guys are arguing because you think it's unfair to killer. IT IS. Which is why you can't use them as a metric for winning. Remember guys this is a team vs team rule set. It's not about how good is your killer, it's about how good are your survivors. Only when all the survivors SUCK and it's no longer a reliable metric do we go "okay how good was your killer then".
Killer doesn't have to win for the team to win. Survivors have to win. Killer just has to make it harder for them to win. What you want is for killer to be the one that "wins" the match, but it's just not feasible to use that metric because it's unfair.
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I don't see why his speed would need a change. If he was slowed that wouldn't make sense because he is still an m1 killer that has to deal with loops. The only thing that would really help in a chase is the gen teleport, but I doubt that will be on a fast cooldown.
And when they changed Legion, on of the first points they made was that he went from 110 to 115. I'm pretty sure they would have mentioned it when they talked about Freddy rework.
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@popoles said:
I think it's not the best idea to present your tournament rules in such a arrogant way.
"I hope you guys see this because this is what you should promote to the community as official tournament rules. They are fair to both survivors and killers, allow for a good meta to develop, would be entertaining for spectators, and showcase the game at the highest skill level possible."
Who acknowledged these facts?
Only you. Your only argument is "I ran tournaments for 10 years now." Which, although probably true, does not mean anything.
Okay maybe I was a bit brash with that statement. I'll give you that. BUT I still stand by it. My goal with this was exactly all that.
- fair to both sides
- allow for meta to develop
- entertaining for spectators
- showcase the game at the highest skill level possible
My rules should achieve each of these points is what I was trying to convey. Obviously it needs testing AS I HAVE STATED BEFORE but this would be the starting point for sure. I have enough experience playing the game to at least visualize how games would go with these rules. There is a lot of room for different strategies on both sides, and it fits the basic premise of the game; survivors want to escape, killers want to kill.
Take for example Tyde's tournament. Now I will give credit where credit is due, Tyde's rule set made for a very exciting and varied game. It was also relatively balanced, though some killers got shafted by the "must use their perks" rule, but for the most part it worked. The problem came from his metric of the win condition. He went by Bloodpoints, which resulted in a finals where one teams killer got a 4k and the other a 2k but the 2k killer's team won because they earned more BP. IDK about you, but a situation like that is just stupid. It was pretty clear the other killer was better and/or the survivors he faced were not as good as the others, yet they lost. This was a situation I actively tried to avoid with my rules, hence why so many if>then statements, because it should be that the team that displayed the most amount of skill wins, not the team that was best at farming BP.
Now yes, I do use BP as a tiebreaker, but it's so deep in there that the game would have to be very even otherwise (and even then it's just as a means to avoid playing a new set of trials, which trust me you would never want to do that).
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@ClogWench said:
Dude this might shock you but most tournaments for games have little variety because theres always that one combo that's better than the rest. That's just how it is. If you want players competing at their highest skill you don't restrict things in the way you're trying to. All you get then is players using the second best perks with little variety. As it stands most killers would just use Nurse or Billy anyway. A lot of your rules are restrictive, and you fail to realize DbD just doesn't work as a fully competitive game.
"As it stands most killers would just use Nurse or Billy anyway"
Yes which is why they are limited to a selection of 3. And then why survivors are limited because 4 stack SWF >> Killer.
It's one thing when you have a fighting game where only maybe 7 characters are viable, or this one combo is the best, or this one weapon is the best. It's another thing when there would only be exactly one way to play the game in a tournament setting.
The difference is that DBD with no limits would have ZERO variety. You want enough variety in tournaments that it's good for spectators, but you don't want that variety to hurt the competitive nature of the game. Smash allows the stages that WORK. There was a time when people discussed the idea of FD only, and it fell out of favor because no one wants to play or watch games on only 1 map. That, and it was realized that some character match ups actually change dynamically when you allow stages with platforms.
All I'm trying to do is avoid the obvious outcome of what a no limits rule set would allow. Limits are necessary, if only to balance SWF against killer. Again none of you would disagree with that, so the fact you push for a no limits style tournament baffles me.
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@Orion said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/510863#Comment_510863
That's not what you're doing. You're saying that if your idea, once implemented, is proven to be a failure, the problem can't be that the idea is bad, but rather that the players themselves are to blame for its failure.
SMH
Dude I said before that things would need testing. Obviously I can't hit it out of the park without playing it first. But based on my EXPERIENCE running tournaments and playing the game, this would be a good starting point.
If this version of the game is balanced and competitive, then we could relax some of the restrictions. Let killers use both add-on slots. Allow purple add-ons. Allow keys. This sort of thing. Or we go in the other direction towards a bare bones approach. You want to start somewhere in the middle because that's where it will most likely be for DBD, not on the extreme ends.
The problem IS the community. Because you don't seem to want to even give it a chance. Scott just flat out says don't bother. How many of you would even compete in a DBD tournament with ANY rule set? Exactly.
Maybe I should have just suggested the timer rules, but I wrote this out as if I was running the tournament. I like to be thorough, so I just did an entire rule set.
And one thing about community rule sets is that you aren't exactly obligated to play by them. You can run a tournament with any rules you want. The idea behind a community rule set is to establish a baseline for what DBD tournaments would be. I'm not here to tell you that you HAVE to play with my rules. I'm saying, if you run a tournament and you want it to be balanced, exciting to watch, skillful, and fun to play, you would want something LIKE my rules.
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I personally would have preferred some QOL buffs and some adjustments for survivors over a full rework. I like the way Freddy plays right now, it's just sometimes he's in a situation where he just can't do anything to stop survivors which is lame. If transition blocked repair and healing he would be amazing.
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@RoKrueger said:
I would lose every match because of "407", I just can't help myself ;-) I also like to continuosly hit the last hooked survivor, especially with Freddy and frenzied Legion :-D
So one thing about this rule, it would be enforced at the discretion of tournament officials. I should add that clause, but basically it means that you can't let someone bleed out to add time to the survivor team. If you know where they are you have to just pick them up and hook them to end the game. And you can't mori spam to extend their death, if you have them dead to rights you need to just kill them. BUT it doesn't mean you can't attempt like a Doc 3 gen strat and try to make the game last as long as possible. THAT IS STILL ALLOWED, even if it would be harder because no Iri King and no Game, it is still an option because you aren't wasting time "when the game is effectively over". If you want to gen stall go for it, because you are still playing the game.
This rule would be one that TO's might give a warning for at first if it looks like the killer is trying to stall when the game is over. Again testing is needed to iron out these details.
EDIT: Also there is no rule against hitting the hooked survivor. Do what you want, but if other survivors are alive I wouldn't advise wasting your time like that.
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@Orion said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/510227#Comment_510227
The fact that you're already blaming the community for the hypothetical failure of your idea is a red flag. You're not even willing to consider the possibility that your idea is just bad. It doesn't matter how much effort you put into it, some ideas are just bad, period.
Or you guys are just super critical of literally everything on the forums. Just look at this place dude. Like yea any idea can be bad, but you guys aren't even giving it a chance. It's just, always immediately negative responses unless someone says something like "buff this killer".
@ClogWench said:
This is hilariously bad and a lot of your rules are arbitrary and unnecessary based on your personal opinions of what's OP and whats not. You were so confident in suggesting the Devs use these officially that I was expecting something at least remotely reasonable but clearly I expected too much.
Explain what is arbitrary? I ban the stuff that is ridiculously powerful and limit survivors so they have to make up TEAM builds. If you let anything goes people will always just pick Omega Blink Nurse with NOED/Ruin and a pink mori, or MOM/DS/Adren/BT with purple instaheal medkit and purple myst. There would literally be no variety to the game at the highest level. And like, literally all of you would agree if I say "4 stack SWF > killer", so we obviously need rules in place to limit AT LEAST survivors. Then all things considered, it's only fair to limit killers slightly to keep things fair.
Everything I limit is either to balance the game or to make it impossible to cheese the timers. I didn't just arbitrarily pick stuff to be in the rules. I sat and thought "what is a good metric to use as a win for a tournament"... Time... "Okay how would we set up rules to make time the metric"..."okay now how can someone cheese the rules?"...then..."okay so what would the average tournament match look like"..."oh all Nurse's and survivors with full OP meta builds, that's bad because there is no variety, how can we add variety"..."let's limit each side a bit at a time and see what would happen". Rinse repeat until you have something that allows variety in the meta without making it unfair for either side.
Like I'm not putting "No Ruin + NOED" because I don't like it, I put it because with all other rules considered this would potentially be way too powerful for killers AND AS SUCH every killer will run this combo every single game. No variety and it unbalances the game for tournaments. Better to just take it out.
@weirdkid5 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/509452#Comment_509452
Suggest I actually play in tournaments? What exceptions are there? Halo 5 tournaments don't disallow anything. There are official made playlists that have a wide selection of maps, and nearly every weapon is eventually represented on one of the maps, even if no one decides to use it. Overwatch pro league is literally just the game. Rainbow Six Siege, nothing is disallowed in pro matches as far as operators, weapons, or gadget use. Quake literally has everything and allows all tactics INCLUDING spawn killing, something SUPER CHEAP. Nothing is disallowed in terms of gameplay. Literally every fighting game is like this. Where are your exceptions?
Big tournaments that make up arbitrary rules are typically made by 3rd parties and honestly ruin the game by forcing playstyles. Your rules ultimately force certain playstyles instead of allowing true player freedom, including extremely cheap tactics that do NOT break the rules of the game at all. Just because something is cheap doesn't mean it shouldn't be allowed. This is like disallowing time outs in a fighting game. It's absolutely stupid my man. That's exactly what your OOOF rule is, disallowing a win through a time out. You clearly have no idea how to run a proper tournmanet. Even barbarian sports like football have cheap tactics like time outs. It's a strategy, get over it. You clearly get angry any time you lose to a timer. News flash, it means you aren't proactive enough in your gameplay and you need to improve.
Did you miss the part where I said they need to make the whole game balanced before they make pro leagues? The fact you acknowledge everyone would pick Omega Nurse proves this game is unbalanced as ######### and needs complete reworking before ANYONE even thinks of making pro league rules. This is what makes your rule proposals an absolute joke, because you acknowledge the game is unbalanced to the point only one Killer is viable and that you need to come up with stupid crap to make everything else viable. If you have to do that, THE GAME ISN'T READY FOR ESPORTS.
I'm not going to rebuttal your disagreements about what I would find appropriate for eSports rules, because of the fact not a single person upvoted your rules and mine has 4. Yes, I'm absolutely going to adhere to ad populum fallacy here because EVERYONE here knows your rules are useless and completely ruin the game. Sorry, they do.
And the fact you won't admit it and instead blame the community for your bad ideas is just icing on the cake. This game will never be ready for eSports until BHVR starts taking the balance seriously.
Oh, and for the record, I have played in tournaments. I've played in Halo 5, Smash, Killer Instinct, and various other games at the tournament level. Don't even start that nonsense. Your custom made rule sets that force playstyles would never gain a single attendee and your downvotes prove it.
Halo 5 is the first game to really be just the base game since CE. Every other Halo had to change the game settings and have rules in place to make it tournament viable. Halo Reach is the biggest one here, they had to change almost every setting to make the game competitive.
Like I won't deny that having a developer put the time in to make the game balanced for competition would help, but not having that doesn't automatically exclude the game from being played in tournaments competitively. You can make it work by changing game settings and having certain rules in place. It might not be ideal but it's playable.
Cheap tactics ruin eSports. Any time something excessively cheap is found they make a rule to address it, specifically when it comes to time out or stalling. NO ONE wants to sit and watch a game where nothing happens for 30 minutes.
And it's pretty clear you didn't even read the rules, because OOOF isn't there to disallow a win through time out, it's there to prevent survivors from cheesing the killer's timer in situations where they know it will end in a 4k so they just hide all game. You really want to sit and watch a 30 minute game where a killer just searches the map looking for a survivor the entire time? It's not even something that could happen often, the rule is there for those fringe cases where it could even happen in the first place. It discourages survivors from dragging out the game, but doesn't explicitly punish them for doing it. They CAN trigger OOOF and it would mean nothing if they escape. It puts the pressure of winning on the survivors not the killer because the metric we have (time) is mainly focused on survivors not on the killer.
And it's funny you bring up Smash because that game actually does change the rules a LOT. The normal game is a free-for-all with items and every stage and in time mode. Tournaments (Melee) play 4 stock 8 minutes, no items, 1v1, all but 7 stages BANNED, Dave's Stupid Rule (if they still call it that), and hell they have had rules or considered rules to BAN STALLING. You try to defend time outs then mention a game that actively tried to ban them, BECAUSE IT RUINS THE GAME. I'm OG Smash Melee, I was part of the back room that made the community rule set. Stalling was a serious concern but it was ultimately decided that any rule we came up with was too arbitrary to enforce*. It wasn't much of a problem in Melee, only Peach could do it on Fountain of Dreams, but in Brawl it was a big problem because a lot of characters could do it with ledge stalling. I left the community after Brawl came out, so I honestly don't know the details of how they resolved it, but it was something that was definitely talked about a LOT in the back room. The thing was, unlike the DBD community, most of the Smash community hated cheesey tactics and as such no one would really try to do it, so it became this sort of unspoken rule to not do it because it's lame.
*This is why I don't have rules that say "no tunneling or camping" or "no looping" because you can't enforce that. I can however enforce "no keys" because I could see a key in someone's hand and if they open the hatch with anything more than 1 survivor left it's obvious a key was used. I can enforce perks/add-on/offering pick limits.
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Guys the key part is "outside your terror radius". That means if you are a killer with a small TR or 0TR (Myers, Wraith) and someone fast vaults a window when they see you, then you can see their aura for 6 seconds. Like yea, this won't be good for some killers but for others it can be pretty strong.
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@ScottJund said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/510227#Comment_510227
Nothing against your rules. Im just saying making rules for a game like this is pointless. You could have the best rules in the world and the simple RNG layout of a map can completely negate any fairness, making it a joke. It would be like having a MOBA tournament with a chance that your towers dont spawn.
I agree to an extent, but we have enough control over the starting parameters to minimize or nullify RNG.
That's why we have a limited selection of relatively balanced maps that both trials of the round are played on. That's why we have rules against the use of keys because it's basically RNG that gives an instant win to one side. That's why we limit the character selection. Limit it enough and it can add variety to the game without negatively impacting results.
Poker is random but there is still balance in the game and it can still be played competitively, and it's BECAUSE of the rules. So I don't see why we couldn't do it here.
And full disclosure, I KNOW that my rules need improvement. I'm not sitting here saying everything is perfect, because it needs testing. Most communities develop tournament rules over time. They naturally progress from just using the random nonsense in a tournament setting and eventually rules get made and changed until you have a very solid set of rules that make the game work competitively.
DBD needs a bit of a booster to get to that point, because no one runs tournaments (or at least, there's no consistency to it). Hence why I wanted to make this post, I'm dumping my tournament experience into a rule set for a game that has potential, especially if we have more content and positive changes in the future.
One reason I didn't release this like 2 months ago was because of hatch. It's just very difficult to come up with a fair way to resolve hatch standoff. I originally had a rule that was basically Olly Olly Oxen Free but for hatch, and it wasn't ideal at all. OOOF isn't ideal at all, but as I point out above you need a rule like this to deter survivors cheesing the timers. But if we get something that prevents survivors from just hiding for long periods of time we don't need the OOOF rule either.
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@ItsYourBoyGuzma said:
Imagine wasting months making this and literally no one is happy with it.
#FeelsLikeLegionRelease
IKR? Not sure why I bother. Scott said the game wouldn't work, it definitely will. What would make it not work is the community and the way they react to things.
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@Niitosky said:
you organizes tournaments for 10 years, you say you've thought about this regulation for months, and then you make me a rule where the maps are chosen randomly? and where would the challenge be in challenging a team that only for a matter of luck happens on the most favorable map and the other team on a more difficult one? lol
Both teams would play on the same map, and the maps are pretty much universally considered the most balanced in the game for both sides. The point here is to take out the broken maps and even the playing field. There is also no reasonable way to let players choose the map, so it makes the most sense to pick from a random selection, and as long as both trials are on the same map RNG impacts are minimized.
I did come up with an alternative idea but I think the random selection is better. Basically the other idea is to add more maps to the official list then teams take turns striking maps until only 1 is left. The problem with this is that most maps will get a strike every time. Shelter Woods is considered the most balanced map, and therefore survivors will always strike that first. Corn maps will always get strikes from killers. You end up with a situation where only like 2-3 maps ever get played. Random selection adds more variety, but limited selection keeps it fair.
Trust me, I thought long and hard about what would happen, and random map selection from a limited list where both trials use the same map is ultimately the easiest and most fair way to do it.
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@xmidnitejokerx said:
i also just wanted to chime in about how you said NOED killer’s wouldn’t be allowed to close the hatch because it gurantees a 4K. That doesn’t make any sense to me, it’s a mechanic of the game. Survivors could easily just cleanse the totem(also a core mechanic of the game). But NOED isn’t indicative of skill in anyway whatsoever, so why allow it at all?
Because we want the burden of winning to be on survivors that means we want to limit 4k's wherever possible. As it stands, if a killer with NOED closes the hatch they will almost definitely get the 4k. It MIGHT be possible to still escape, but it will be rare. You make a killer reconsider using NOED for this reason, and as such more options become available.
NOED, Ruin and BBQ are all the top killer perks in the game, and with the way survivors are limited according to the rules it only makes sense to put some risk on these perks. Ruin is most reliable and likely to be included in every killer's build, so to say you can't use it with NOED adds risk since now survivors will KNOW you do not have a NOED. If you bring NOED, you are more limited in your options when hatch spawns. If you bring BBQ you run the risk of giving the survivors bounty time if you never get a hook on them. Outside of Ruin + NOED there are no other perk restrictions on killers, only risks for some.
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@xmidnitejokerx said:
Also: hey you’re the guy that’s always in Boston’s streams lol
Yes.
@xmidnitejokerx said:
The fact there are this many rules, proves it will not work. Either make it barebones, no perks or something, or like someone above mentioned above, let everyone go full meta and judge based off emblems. If killers wanna pink mori/camp/tunnel then there emblems will reflect that negatively. You say everyone will run MoM/adrenaline/etc. but that’s what this game is. It isn’t broken at its core to have a true tournament scene. Tournaments should only be for shits and giggles.
There are games out there with a lot of rules also. This is actually pretty straightforward... 100's are for basic tournament formats and such, 200's are the timer rules and win conditions based on timer rules, 300 is survivor rules mostly penalty/bounty times, and 400 is killer rules which mostly say the limits of playing killer and forbid specific things in specific context.
And YOU CANNOT USE EMBLEMS IN KYF. That immediately takes it off the table. Beyond that, even if you could see emblems in KYF it is actually a very poor metric when it comes to competition. TIME is the ultimate factor in this game, which is why my rules are based on time as it's the core of the gameplay.
Barebones could also work, but the problem there is that it's BORING. It's boring to play and even more boring to watch. If you want people to watch your eSport and be interested, there has to be variety. That means allowing perks and such. But since there is a lot of OP stuff you need rules in place to trim that stuff out to make it more skillful.
It's possible. You also need to keep in mind that some of the finer details would need testing in actual tournaments. It might turn out we could allow keys, or allow 2 add-ons, or that we need MORE restrictions on survivors or killers. I tried to visualize scenarios where someone could cheese a rule or do something that was completely unfair to the other side, and this is the rule set I came up with.
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@holywhitetrash said:
@thesuicidefox on your answer to time wasting in that scenario wouldn't it make more sense to just note the time the player was downed and then if the player dies use the noted time if they somehow escape use the full time? decisive strike is a thing and even if only one player can bring it the killer still has to worry about it existing and that is 60 seconds that they can't touch a downed survivor
we will have to agree to disagree on the NOED/ruin parts
If the player has DS the TO can see this and if a killer decides to slug it's not wasting time, it's wasting DS. The rule is there to enforce at the TO's discretion. So in this case the TO can let the killer slug. BUT if the killer slugs for an extra 30 seconds, the TO can enforce the rule because now it's wasting time. This rule is there to discourage killers from attempting to cheese the timer, it's not there to limit killer actions deemed acceptable play.
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@Mister_Holdout said:
I can appreciate you taking the time to develop this rule list. But I have one question.
Have you ever played this game on PC before? If so, how many hours? Just curious because I recall you saying that you're an Xbox player.
I play on Xbox. But I don't see a problem with how this would work for PC. I understand the meta and I watch streamers/YT'ers that play on PC, there isn't much difference in terms of what is balanced and what is skillful.
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@ScottJund said:
Please stop even encouraging tournaments for this game. It is way too badly balanced and far too RNG heavy to come even remotely close to having s respectable tournament. Its a silly jumbled mess, just have fun with it and take it lightly. No idea why you'd spend so much time on this.
It can be done Scott. The problem is really what metric do we want to measure tournament results, and then how much of the current game do we have to limit in order for it to be balanced and skillful.
I feel like I've accomplished this with my rules, and it's honestly a tad disappointing people aren't supportive of it.
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@holywhitetrash "did i read the killer part right in that killers can only put up a mist offering? but survivors can drop 4 petrified oaks"
What? No. Survivors can offer 1 yellow coin FOR THE WHOLE TEAM. So the offering screen will show 1 coin and 1 myst whatever the killer chooses.
"killers who brought NOED cant close the hatch what is the possible reasoning behind this, the killer closes the hatch and finds you before you open the exit gate, it doesn't matter if he can instant down you or not."
We want to avoid 4k's as much as possible because it puts the burden of the win on survivors and not killers. As such, since NOED procs when killer closes hatch it means that if killer has NOED and closes hatch, with the rest of the rules the way they are that will almost always be a 4k. So if you have NOED you can't close hatch unless gates are powered (at which point NOED is already proc'd so it doesn't matter) or if the final survivor is the obsession (to punish players that play as the obsession and give the killer the option to close it with NOED if they play their cards right and save the obsession for last).
"trapper just straight up isn't playable, gets 1 add on that can't be pink or purple (this probably makes a lot of killers not playable)"
So certain things need testing, the add-on bit is one of them. I just made a general rule and then limited Nurse and Billy a bit more to make it more fair. It might turn out that some killers should be allowed 2 add-ons, we need tournaments to happen before this exact detail can be worked out. But the way I see it, with all other rules considered, it seems most fair to limit killers to 1 add-on green or lower. It allows for variety but not OP combinations.
"ruin and NOED are some how a forbidden combo what ?"
If you let killers do this, it will be meta for pretty much every game at top 8 most likely because the combination is very powerful, specifically more so if the killer is also powerful (Nurse, Spirit). By saying you can't have both means that you don't get the auto-pick scenarios where killers just always use this exact thing and nothing else.
"are survivors allowed to bring in a key but not allowed to use that key for anything?"
No survivors can bring 1 sport flashlight (as in 1 for the team not 1 each), because if you don't allow this then flashlight saves are RNG based, which is bad for competition. So allow both teams a single flashlight so they can ALWAYS save and it becomes more fair.
And no survivors cannot bring a key. If you find a key just leave it in the chest. We don't want RNG to influence ESCAPE time or number or escapes, and keys are way too powerful to allow them to bring it.
Otherwise anything found in a chest is allowed. Just no keys.
"why does we're gonna live forever give a time bounty? because it it does nothing , then why doesn't left behind or slippery meat give a bounty?"
More perks could be added to the bounty list, but as it stands WGLF is the only perk that does literally nothing in the context of the tournament. It's just basically an empty perk slot, so putting a bounty on it and allowing all survivors to use it means you can get games where a team wants to pressure the other team's timer so they all equip WGLF. If they 4e, it takes off 4 minutes from their time, which would almost force the other team to also all equip WGLF. Left Behind is useless in general, but there will probably come a time when that gets changed, however unless they add some actual function to WGLF it will always be useless in a tournament not based on Bloodpoints.
"why are killers forbidden to "waste time", kill time is their literal condition for victory? so "wasting" time is just throwing their ability to win away"
Yes technically. If the game is looking to be a 4k then it is in their best interest to kill fast and not waste time. HOWEVER, there can be an instance where say 1 survivor has already escaped, 2 are dead, and the last is slugged. Killer could let them crawl to 1 tick then pick them up to hook adding to the survivors' ESCAPE time. Or purposely do nothing and let the Entity take them, which also adds time. This rule is in place to avoid that and force killer to just do what they are supposed to do and not try and cheese the timers.
ATTENTION EVERYONE IN THIS THREAD!
A lot of these rules are anti-cheese. The timers are the main component of the rule set, wins are best on times THEN on escapes THEN on kills THEN on tiebreaker stuff. Stuff like 405 and 407 are to stop killers from cheesing the survivor ESCAPE timer. Stuff like 205 are there so survivors can't cheese the killer's KILL timer.
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@weirdkid5 said:
I have a way easier way of doing this. Here's how it works.
People can use whatever perks, items, addons, offerings, etc that they want. Let people go all out, like pretty much all other competitive games do.
Two teams of 5. One Killer to each team, 4 survivors to each team. Each survivor group faces the opposite Killer.
The team that gets the overall better Emblem quality is the winner. It's simple, let's people play how they want, and uses a scoring system within the game that isn't an arbitrary made up one.
Universal rules for a tournament should simply be how the game is. This is how all fighting games are, they don't tell you that you aren't allowed to use infinite combos for instance if you happen to find one. Or doing cheap tactics such as corner pressure or projectile spamming. The thing is, my idea could also easily be applied to a team ranked mode within the game itself.
As soon as I read your "Olly olly oxen free" stuff, I was like, this is just too much. Going this deep is absolutely painful and unnecessary. Besides, this game is way too unbalanced for it to ever be competitive anyway. Until all Killers are viable at the competitive level, this game will never be able to live in a tournament. Even then, all tournaments I've ever witnessed are a disaster. This really isn't the kind of game that is meant to be eSports and that's ok. Not every game needs to have a Pro League or whatever.
Your rules could be cheesed so hard by teams though. Let's break it down...
"People can use whatever perks, items, addons, offerings, etc that they want. Let people go all out, like pretty much all other competitive games do."
First, competitive games DO NOT allow anything goes. All the serious ones have very strict rules. I suggest you actually play in some tournaments and see this. There are EXCEPTIONS, like most fighting games are just the base game. But look at any shooter or sports game tournament and you will see that there are a lot of rules taking out the dumb stuff.
Second, if you do this killers will ALWAYS pick Omega Blink Nurse RUIN NOED pink mori. Like literally nothing else will be viable. Every survivor will pick MOM/DS/Adren and then probably some mix of BT, Deliverance, and Dead Hard. Every one will take a purple medkit with a pink needle, and every one will offer purple myst. That is going to be every game for your tournament finals. This is what we want to avoid, by limiting the super OP stuff you allow for more meta to develop. More killers become viable, more builds become viable, some survivor tactics become viable, etc.
"Two teams of 5. One Killer to each team, 4 survivors to each team. Each survivor group faces the opposite Killer."
This is how you would kill DBD esports. Spectators are a big deal, you want to make sure people are entertained by watching the game at a high level. Do you know what happens when one team has ALL the best players? They dominate the game, leading to very boring eSport scene. "Oh Team Red won again, what a surprise [confetti]". This would just let the 4 best survivors in the world team up with the best killer in the world and BOOM. Unbeatable team. Yes it's happened before. But say teams are 4 players and people have to play both sides, now you open up the door to more variety of players in the top ranks. You can't just have THE BEST on your team, at least not as easily (could still happen but if you are best killer and top 4 survivors in the world kinda earned it at that point).
"The team that gets the overall better Emblem quality is the winner. It's simple, let's people play how they want, and uses a scoring system within the game that isn't an arbitrary made up one."
This is just an awful metric to use. Besides the fact that KYF does not track Emblems, even if they did it's not a measure of skill in a truly competitive setting. We need another metric, which is why time is used. Time is the ultimate factor in this game, and the way the rules are designed is to put the burden of the win on survivors ability to best use their time. Most of the rules apply to survivors time, the only thing that doesn't is killer's time, and the burden of the win is only on the killers when BOTH get a 4k because you have to do it that way.
"As soon as I read your "Olly olly oxen free" stuff, I was like, this is just too much. "
You need the Olly Olly Oxen Free rule or else a survivor who's killer got a 4k in the previous game can just hide and stall the killers timer resulting in a guaranteed win. It's to prevent survivors from cheesing the rules, they should always be playing to escape not to stall the game. This rule does not punish survivors either, they can enact this rule to no detriment to them. It's just there to protect killers from getting cheesed through the timer rules because a survivor just hides the whole game. People WILL do this if you don't say that doing it doesn't hurt your opponent.
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@Orion said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/509389#Comment_509389
That's what you would do, but you would not be a TO. Players have no guarantee that 101 wouldn't be enforced in such a way that it invalidates the result of a trial. 101's very existence makes trials irrelevant because the results can be retroactively changed.
I'd also like to note that limiting playstyles is literally the opposite of playing the game at the highest possible skill level. People who play at the highest possible skill level don't handicap themselves with such arbitrary rules as "don't equip more than one add-on" or "don't equip this perk". They use every single tool available, combine them with their skill, and the result is the highest possible skill level.
Then that's on that TO. People will just stop playing in their tournaments if they do that. If BHVR officially sponsors a tournament, they would want people LIKE ME who have experience doing these things and wouldn't screw over players like that. It's called trust.
The point of the post is to establish a universal tournament rules. Joe Shmoe could run a tournament with whatever rules he wants, and nothing is stopping him from doing this there too. It's there to allow TO's the ability to make calls that would otherwise be impossible, even if the likelihood of a specific event happening that is not cover by rules is incredibly small you want this because something WILL eventually happen. It's to cover TO's, not to let people do whatever they want (which in theory they can do anyway), and if a TO does stuff like that they should be shamed by the community and no one will go to their events.
Trust me when I say that it's not there to screw over anyone, it's there to protect TO's, the HONEST ones.
Regarding your second point, no that's not correct. The amount of OP nonsense in this game is astounding. And you above all people aren't arguing that a killer can take on a coordinated SWF with perks? That's why there are limits, to make the game more fair, otherwise you get a very boring spectator event. If killers could mori, or survivors could stack MOM/DS/Adren/BT every game then the outcome would be VERY predictable, on top of not exactly taking a lot of skill.
But to do well as survivors when you can't share perks and have a timer takes skill. To 4k as a killer using 1 add-on that is not pink/purple is skill. These rules are competitive and fair, but you aren't limited in your strategical options. Killers can go for slug builds, game slowing, or anti-heal, or end game. Survivors can play risky with obsession perks or slow and immersed. There is a wide variety here, the only things off limits are the super powerful stuff. Not to mention, most killers builds with top add-ons are meme builds that wouldn't work in a tournament setting. Scratched Mirror Myers would NEVER do well in a tournament, even on Lery's (which isn't allowed here anyway). He just wouldn't, against good survivors working together he would get crushed. And body block Hag? No one will use that because it would be an auto-loss at this level, so the fact it cannot be used is irrelevant.
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@HavelmomDaS1 said:
Imo all DbD tournaments I watched were absolute garbage because it was forcing the players to much how they play. Never found it appealing to participate or even watch.
I did not read ur rules, buts it's a lot and it's probably the same: forcing certain playstyles.
You should read them then, because they actually are not forcing players to do anything. It limits the upper stupid OP things in the game and balances it out for killer v SWF but you can do anything you want on either side.
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@Orion said:
What's the logic behind changing rules on the fly and enforcing them retroactively?
This is a rule I included in all my tournaments.
First you don't change a rule and enforce it retroactively. The point of the rule is to allow a TO to add or change a rule if someone finds a loophole. The retroactively part just means that a TO can let a match finish and decide after if a rule was broken to prevent false terminations of legit matches. See previous comment.
The rule is there IF YOU NEED IT, which you shouldn't 99.9999% of the time. It's for fringe cases, because sometimes things happen you didn't expect and it's easier to make a rule about it than to just pick the winner.
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@GrootDude said:
Rule “105” is dumb since you often have no control over that bug.(Rarely happens now though)
I have an answer for that one ;)
Rules can be enforced retroactively. Basically what I would do as TO is let the match continue until it's natural end, then decide later if breaking collision would have significantly changed the game. The rule is the to deter people from abusing obvious bugs, but since a TO can enforce the rule after-the-fact because 101 you can decide if someone did something on purpose or not.
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A more accurate title would be ....
This Forum is Just People Complaining
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@Peanits said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/504647#Comment_504647
This is basically it. They're just meant to give you a way to try the different killers without needing to own them.
@Peanits Are you guy aware that some people who own the content still get splinters? I purchased Myers and Laurie with Auric Cells and I still get Black Splinters for Myers on all my killers.
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I suggested in another thread that if you are 100% infected then you get rapid fire skill checks and failed penalty is tripled. That would encourage survivors to cleanse but still allow the option to NOT do it if you are good enough to do those skill checks, for those times when time is of the essence maybe but not for the entire game.
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Obsessions should always spawn away from the group and by themselves. Change killer's shroud offering to make the obsession spawn closest to them. Then the survivor shroud offerings will actually be useful, because obsession players will use it to protect themselves. Killer will not know which they used, but will know at the offering screen that there is likely going to be an obsession. Survivors could also use it to protect themselves in case they are chosen as the obsession, since killer perks would and DS choose someone at random.
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@Dwight_Fairfield said:
If any killer player is constantly finding DS an issue then that means they are constantly tunneling. Zero sympathy or understanding towards their plight in that case.
Or they just mindlessly pick up everyone they down right away.
When I get DS'd I don't get mad I say "oh I hooked this guy less then 60s ago". Then I either let them go, or if I'm Spirit just eat it, chase them, and down them again 10s later.
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@MegMain98 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/503233#Comment_503233
@thesuicidefox MYC is amazing Spirit. I think MYC is more useful on Hag and Nurse but it is very useful on Spirit as well. I ran it for a while but I typically don’t make my way back to the hook unless I can’t find another survivor or the survivors are super altruistic. I swapped MYC for Surveillance. I wouldn’t definitely recommend Surveillance for a Spirit build.
I also ran Brutal Strength for a while as well but it isn’t that great on Spirit due to the fact that if they are trying to flashlight blind you through a pallet it’ll never work on Spirit regardless if you have BS or not. Spirit cannot he blinded while breaking a pallet. I’ve had so many DC’s because I’ve downed survivors after an unsuccessful flashlight blind followed by me shaking my head at them XD.
The thing about MYC on Spirit is that it is the overall best one shot perk for her.
Haunted Ground is on a timer and it often goes wasted if it gets done while you chase the first survivor, who will generally already be injured.
NOED is strong but is IMO a lame perk to use and can also be removed from the game by survivors.
Devour Hope is in a similar spot as NOED, but even more likely to be removed from the game.
Rancor only works on the obsession at the end of the game.
MYC can't ever be taken away from you. The only counter is to basically make an unsafe rescue. You can also use it to your advantage, as I have had instances where I hook someone out in the open and sort of camp from a distance, using my phase walk to get the MYC guy when the save happens.
IDK about Brutal Strength, but Lightborn is actually pretty nice for her. One counter to the stand still mind game is to flashlight her, since it either 1) blinds her and blocks her use of phase walk, or 2) reveals that she is actually phase walking because you can't blind the husk. Lightborn lets you sponge that and phase walk after them, the beam will still shrink making them think you are standing still when really you stood still for a moment then phase walked over.
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@mcNuggets said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/65828/why-is-everyone-trying-to-get-ds-butchered
Maybe because mid tier killers need to tunnel :O
They really don't. If you think this then you are a bad killer.
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@Eninya said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/502617#Comment_502617
You're right, I keep getting them mixed up.
I was gonna say "why amulet?!?"
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@Visionmaker said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/502466#Comment_502466
@Poweas It is exceptional with Spirit. Your husk counts toward MYC's activation range. Using maxed Distressing or Prayer Beads with it guarantees a silent Haunting and an easy MYC proc if timed properly.
So if you hook a survivor, walk away 32m (MYC will light up), then use your power to fly back to the hook and wait using your power until they are picked up, the unhooker will be exposed even though you appear right at the hook.
It works great against survivors that are greedy to pick each other up and SWF to dissuade them from saving each other.
edit: Maxed Distressing is only 30m so it's not perfect for MYC depending on the angle. :-(
I use MYC on Spirit in my main build and I'm pretty sure that the husk does not count, the perk only relies on you being 32m away.
MYC is excellent on Spirit because it helps both in a chase and as a way to slow the game. Spirit is already super strong in a chase, so getting a one shot on someone makes her that much better. And even if you don't find the guy, since you are Spirit and can pop up almost anywhere at anytime it forces survivors to be immersed for 60s and not take any risks. That means they likely won't go do a gen, and if they hear or see you they will hide which is wasted time for them. Also, it discourages survivors from healing at the hook, so you end up with a bunch of injured survivors after a while because people are scared to heal you right away.
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@Condorloco_26 said:
Because you get hit by it after hooking 2 other people. That's not tunneling. That's just dumb.
If you hooked 2 other people, slug the guy and count to 20. Problem solved!
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Because Freddy OP.
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@SunderMun "It's supposed to be a team game..."
No it's not. You are not a team, you are a group of survivors. Yes, it's generally in your best interest to play to keep everyone alive as long as possible, because the longer the entire group is alive the greater the chance any individual survivor will escape. But you are not bound to save them, and in some cases you are better off leaving them to die or playing selfishly to save yourself.
Like if push comes to shove, I would rather you die than I die. So if we are in a situation where it's just the two of us and there is no way we are going to finish the gens, I'm going to play selfishly and let you die if you get caught. Or I will lead the killer to you if I get caught and hope they go after you.
People need to stop saying this is a team game. It isn't. The moment you realize that is the moment you will start to be a better survivor. If you want to sacrifice yourself so that someone else has a chance to escape, that's fine too, but you are not obligated to do that. I tend to only do that if I know that I have no chance to escape and the other guy does. But I'm not doing it to help a "teammate" I'm doing it because I know my fate is sealed, so might as well spite the killer and deny them more kills.
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Claudettes that hide all the time suck in a chase usually. Yea they are tough to find but once found they go down fast and easy. Also a lot of them try to pull stupid ######### that only works against bad killers. Running around an object then trying to crouch walk away with Iron Will and Urban Evasion. Newsflash, if you are injured you leave puddles of blood that any smart killer will see and still find you. If scratch marks just disappear I know you are nearby and can't have gone far because you aren't running. Oh and they always ALWAYS forget about the crows. I find so many survivors because of crows. One guy asked "how did you know where I was"... well I heard a crow go off on the tile behind me, I know it wasn't me sooo had to be a survivor. Turn around and search the area to find you.
And the fact I use Stridor on my Spirit makes it impossible, IM-#########-POSSIBLE, for you to pull those crouch walk jukes on me. I will hear you and just smack your ass out of phase walk. EZ PZ lemon squeezy.
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@MrDardon said:
At the moment I use
Ruin: Gen slowdown
Thanatophobia: Someone mentioned it, Survivors sometimes don't cleanse, but if they cleanse always it's a wasted perk. Otherwise it's pretty good.
Monitor and Abuse: Just to sneak up easier on them so they have less time to react
Discordance: To get information which gen is being worked on
You equip Thana to force survivors to cleanse. Not cleansing right now is the biggest counter tactic to Plague, and Thana punishes that. Yes, if they cleanse often it's not going to make a difference, but if they cleanse you get Corrupt which is INSANELY powerful and makes up for the loss of a perk honestly.
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Red Devil outfit for Rin. (Red skin, horns, tail, little wings, maybe hooved feet?)