jesterkind
jesterkind
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As a brief aside, the Knight can't use his power to camp because the patrolling guards vanish if the unhook action is started, even if it isn't finished.
It lets the Knight player know someone's coming for a save, maybe, but the guards themselves can't defend a hook. It's actually a smoother way of handling anti-camp than just disabling the power outright imo.
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I have to admit that I only care about maps if I'm playing Trapper, and then my response is something along the lines of "oh my god what are the chances".
Keys, I usually raise my eyebrows and mostly just keep an eye out for anyone who seems really really good at looping. Their other uses aren't something to be worried about from the killer's perspective, but you do gotta be aware of Blood Amber.
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If you want to help solo queue and want to avoid perks wasting time, Self-Care would need to be completely wrong. It was already a bad perk that wasted time prior to the big meta shakeup, so reverting it back there would only mitigate the problem slightly, not fix it.
Also, you can't change perks to fix bad decisions. Survivors, even solo queue survivors, have so many actually viable self-heal options, if people aren't using them now then they won't choose to use any new ones you add in.
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@almofan1001 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3254779#Comment_3254779
Man, you're really acting like swinging into a Dead Hard at a pallet is like, the end of the game and you've already lost. There are so many scenarios that's happened to me and I still get the down like ten seconds later because there's nothing for the survivor to run to, or where I just drop the chase and go down someone else. Seriously, it's not the same every time and it's not an automatic chase ender, it gives some value to survivors but it's far from overpowered.
Glad you can catch survivors after they use Dead Hard in 10 seconds now. Judging by this, that means that with old Dead hard you probably caught them in like 2-4 seconds tops. Old DH wasn't a problem at all, literally a 2-4 seconds chase extender, LOL!
As for your last points, insisting it be in the top five instead of where it is just seems arbitrary to me. Since it's the difference between it and the next few in line that matters, I don't see how that'd fix anything. As for it being picked as often as the other Exhaustion perks, in theory I agree, but not all the Exhaustion perks are actually equal. There's no universe where, even with DH completely removed from the game, people gravitate to Smash Hit or Head On to replace it, the Exhaustion perks need to be closer to one another before they can be used as a metric for comparing Dead Hard to.
If one exhaustion perk is still very much picked over exhaustion perks (for how many years now?), then yeah - it should be nerfed even more, especially when they rely on the same exhaustion mechanic. I don't think other exhaustion perks are bad, all of them are good and perfectly balanced - so why does DH still get very much preferred over all other exhaustion perks? I guess the community just has a fetish for Dead Hard - that's why it never cant gravitate towards the same pick rate.
Or MAYBE, going back to my decisive strike example... Decisive Strike is still a decent perk after the nerf but its pick rate probably plunged probably by 80 % and no one considers it meta anymore. It can still win you games and is a good perk, but it requires more thinking and pre-planning. They literally made Decisive Strike actually require some brain usage and not just "HOLD W for the next 10-20 seconds". This is a perk that actually requires significantly more skill compared to its older self, and we can see how quickly it has fallen out of the meta (even though it's still picked by skilful players from my experience). DH should've been the same, but arguably "it requires more skill to use now", so much more skill that it's still the most picked survivor perk.
If the argument against DS is that "it does nothing", then I can also see easily DH also "doing nothing" when they go down after the killer waits for it. Or MAYBE, just MAYBE, it does much more... The parallels with DS are undeniable, yet it's clear that something is still really wrong with DH as DS is out of the meta, and DH still is. Or should I say, DS is still meta at the top level, but DH is meta mostly everywhere.
...No, because old Dead Hard was used for distance, which is uncounterable and resets the chase because they make it to a new tile that they then start looping. That doesn't mean that it could be used literally anywhere on the map, but it could be used as a free chase extension with zero downsides or counters, that always gives value and required absolutely no thought or skill beyond making sure you're running towards a tile when using it.
New Dead Hard, by contrast, does let someone avoid dropping the pallet (not avoid going down, as we're discussing its use at a pallet), at the cost of Deep Wound, no stun for the killer, and potentially having absolutely nowhere for their speed boost to take them. It's a gamble now, because there are a lot of scenarios where the killer just shrugs and keeps chasing you, especially if they have a power that can handle Dead Hard- which a lot of killers, even a lot of the weaker ones, do.
As for the Exhaustion perks... you can't be telling me that you think Smash Hit is as powerful as Sprint Burst or Lithe, surely? I'd agree that they're all usable, but they're nowhere near the same levels of strength. People are going to pick the stronger ones more than they pick the weaker ones, that's what I mean. The weaker ones need to be stronger before we can go down the route of nerfing the most picked ones solely for being the most picked-- since again, "most picked" is irrelevant if it's only the most picked by a small percentage and overall there's reasonable variety.
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@almofan1001 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3254752#Comment_3254752
...Why can't you swing during the invulnerability period? Of course you can swing, you just have to understand and react to what happens next. From the killer's perspective, dropping chase is always a viable decision if you don't think you can secure a down, so dropping chase and getting a short Mend period out of the survivor is actually better for you than the survivor simply getting to run away.
Are you really saying that getting a deep wound + dropping a chase + not getting a pallet drop is somehow a good scenario for a killer? You really should stop with "deep wound value" stuff, Legion has that base kit and he's still one of the worst killers in the game. It doesn't do much to prolong the game, downs are everything.
(Also, brief side note, Bubba does not give a solitary damn about Dead Hard nor any other form of Endurance, nor does Blight or Nurse, but I will grant you some killers will be forced to hit it more often. Most of them have powers that let them get a follow up hit pretty easily, but still.)
Yes, they do. Any extra chase time against strong killers is valuable. It's true that they don't suffer as much as M1 killers from Dead Hard, but it still gives a second chance to get to a pallet or get to a different place. In a way, it's like the new DS, which can win you games at times, and can give you nothing. I think DS is a perfectly balanced perk now - it's what DH should've been
As for your final point, you're being misleading. Yes, it's the most used survivor perk, but it went from a 70% pickrate in high MMR lobbies to a 20% one. That is a giant drop and an absolute success. The killer perks look similar, if I recall correctly- because it doesn't matter what the most popular perk is if it's only the most picked by a small margin. It matters when perks absolutely dominate with huge differences in the pickrate between them and their closest competitors, which was the case with Dead Hard.
"A top survivor perk is still the top survivor perk even after rework". When DH has a similar pick rate as other exhaustion perks (+- 3-5 %), then we can talk that it's in line with other exhaustion perks. A perk which has been meta for 5+ years should not be compared to its absolute pick rate, but relative to other perks, and it's still predominantly meta (likely the most used perk).
DH rework would've been a success if:
1 At most it's the top 5 used perks, not the top 2, or even top 1
2 Its pick rate is very close to other exhaustion perks
Neither was achieved.
Man, you're really acting like swinging into a Dead Hard at a pallet is like, the end of the game and you've already lost. There are so many scenarios that's happened to me and I still get the down like ten seconds later because there's nothing for the survivor to run to, or where I just drop the chase and go down someone else. Seriously, it's not the same every time and it's not an automatic chase ender, it gives some value to survivors but it's far from overpowered.
As for the killers mentioned, no, they don't. Bubba chainsaws through Endurance all the time, it's why he doesn't care about Borrowed Time when basement camping, and Nurse and Blight recharge fast enough that they do not care about having to hit three times instead of two. The benefit of those chase extensions is miniscule, especially against Nurse. Add onto that killers that get to completely ignore Dead Hard like Legion, Deathslinger, and to a lesser extent killers like Trapper or anyone with an instadown, and its usefulness continues to drop compared to its old state.
As for your last points, insisting it be in the top five instead of where it is just seems arbitrary to me. Since it's the difference between it and the next few in line that matters, I don't see how that'd fix anything. As for it being picked as often as the other Exhaustion perks, in theory I agree, but not all the Exhaustion perks are actually equal. There's no universe where, even with DH completely removed from the game, people gravitate to Smash Hit or Head On to replace it, the Exhaustion perks need to be closer to one another before they can be used as a metric for comparing Dead Hard to.
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@almofan1001 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3254712#Comment_3254712
Except it is counterable. That's the entire reason you're wrong about it being a failure, in all scenarios except for over-committing at a pallet, you can counter Dead Hard by baiting it out. And in the scenarios where they're at a pallet... they aren't always at a pallet, they don't teleport there when you start a chase. You can get a hit in those scenarios, it's not an automatic thing where they're going to get value from Dead Hard in every single chase.
You underestimate how much "DH at pallet" scenario happens. It happens way more than you think and is not a niche use case anymore. The only relevant scenarios where we need to discuss DH are:
1 At a pallet (DH is stronger than before by all means)
2 When near windows (DH is weaker than before)
3 When countering by timing a near guaranteed upcoming hit from the killer - ex Nurse, Blight, Bubba, etc. (DH is stronger than before)
4 When predicting non-telegraphed attacks (DH is stronger than before)
Even your own arguments are backing this up, frankly. Even if we were to assume that DH at a pallet should be considered genuinely uncounterable, that's still massively less powerful than old Dead Hard which allowed you to get to a pallet that you otherwise would've been hit before you reached. For new Dead Hard, the survivor always has the option not to get hit because they can only use it the way you're describing in the same situations they could drop a pallet for a stun. You're basically arguing that a slightly better Smash Hit that also gives you Deep Wound is uncounterable, lol.
Do the maths and figure it out yourself. The invulnerability period is more or less the same with both old DH and new DH. Killers cannot swing because of that invulnerability period which either leads to a pallet drop/stun or a triggered DH. There is no "waiting it out" during this as you are forced into a lose-lose situation. You can use that invulnerability period just as well as you used the "gain distance" period, maybe there is 10-20 % off, but that difference is negligible from my experience.
There's no way around it. This version of the perk is weaker, and picked massively less often.
I like how we have overwhelmingly strong meta perk for 5 years, and it's still likely the most used survivor perk after so-called "REWORK" and this is apparently fine. Meanwhile, sh*t like Ruin gets nerfed to ground with the definition of a dead perk after it's been meta in the same way as DH.
...Why can't you swing during the invulnerability period? Of course you can swing, you just have to understand and react to what happens next. From the killer's perspective, dropping chase is always a viable decision if you don't think you can secure a down, so dropping chase and getting a short Mend period out of the survivor is actually better for you than the survivor simply getting to run away.
(Also, brief side note, Bubba does not give a solitary damn about Dead Hard nor any other form of Endurance, nor does Blight or Nurse, but I will grant you some killers will be forced to hit it more often. Most of them have powers that let them get a follow up hit pretty easily, but still.)
As for your final point, you're being misleading. Yes, it's the most used survivor perk, but it went from a 70% pickrate in high MMR lobbies to a 20% one. That is a giant drop and an absolute success. The killer perks look similar, if I recall correctly- because it doesn't matter what the most popular perk is if it's only the most picked by a small margin. It matters when perks absolutely dominate with huge differences in the pickrate between them and their closest competitors, which was the case with Dead Hard.
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@almofan1001 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3254687#Comment_3254687
For the first one, you're missing something pretty obvious: you get a speed boost if you time it right, and after you get that speed boost, you have to mend. No matter what way you slice it, that is weaker than instant free value with no downside other than Exhaustion.
You can shift W after you dead hard with sprint burst which inherently wastes 10+ sec more at least. Additionally, if you pull new dead hard everywhere else but pallet, you get massively more value compared to dead hard. Old DH baiting M1 would literally buy you max 2 seconds more, new DH gets you at least 10+ sec + ability to get to a pallet.
Mending is irrelevant, especially when mended by another person. Going down/staying in the same loop/dead zone is significantly worse than having to mend. Literally, no one makes the same argument about base kit BT mend time, everyone knows it's worth it lol.
For the second, I would say that at a pallet is definitely a strong place to use Dead Hard, but you're missing that the value it gives is saving a pallet- you can only use it that way if you can also get a pallet stun, so it's less dodging a hit and more saving the pallet for later, at the cost of Deep Wound.
Yes, it gives a saved pallet + sprint burst. It's massively stronger than the old DH and doesn't require much skill to use it like this. I also don't know what's your argument here. Are you agreeing with me and adding more to my points that it's overwhelmingly strong there? Thanks, I guess.
For the third, this is blatantly wrong. How the hell could you bait out someone using Dead Hard to make distance to a pallet/window they wouldn't otherwise reach? That was the entire problem with Dead Hard and by far the most common use for it, and that is now completely impossible. You cannot use it to reach tiles that were otherwise out of reach, which was absurdly strong, and thus the perk is now considerably weaker.
Yes, the distance uncounterable factor is gone. But the new uncounterable mechanic has been replaced by using DH at a pallet. We shuffled parts there and here, and in the end, the perk is not much different. Same, but different, i.e. rework failure. Effectively it's a third health state with an uncounterable mechanic which is what old DH always was.
Except it is counterable. That's the entire reason you're wrong about it being a failure, in all scenarios except for over-committing at a pallet, you can counter Dead Hard by baiting it out. And in the scenarios where they're at a pallet... they aren't always at a pallet, they don't teleport there when you start a chase. You can get a hit in those scenarios, it's not an automatic thing where they're going to get value from Dead Hard in every single chase.
Even your own arguments are backing this up, frankly. Even if we were to assume that DH at a pallet should be considered genuinely uncounterable, that's still massively less powerful than old Dead Hard which allowed you to get to a pallet that you otherwise would've been hit before you reached. For new Dead Hard, the survivor always has the option not to get hit because they can only use it the way you're describing in the same situations they could drop a pallet for a stun. You're basically arguing that a slightly better Smash Hit that also gives you Deep Wound is uncounterable, lol.
That's not even getting into all of the small killer-specific things DH used to do, even.
There's no way around it. This version of the perk is weaker, and picked massively less often.
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@almofan1001 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3254675#Comment_3254675
How can you say it's weaker when properly used it's even stronger than before.
Before:
You gain distance
Now:
You gain a sprint burst
So if dead hard gets triggered then it's ALWAYS stronger than old dead hard in value. So the question is - does it get triggered enough?
Let's see:
Before - Baiting out at pallet:
Does not work if the survivor is good (uncounterable)
After - Baiting out at pallet:
Does not work if the survivor is good (uncounterable)
Before - Baiting everywhere else:
It's easy (irrelevant point)
After - Baiting out everywhere else:
It's easy (irrelevant point)
The only argument you could make that DH is weaker is cause you can't use it on windows properly, but that gets offset by benefits in other areas.
Let's take a look at those examples!
For the first one, you're missing something pretty obvious: you get a speed boost if you time it right, and after you get that speed boost, you have to mend. No matter what way you slice it, that is weaker than instant free value with no downside other than Exhaustion.
For the second, I would say that at a pallet is definitely a strong place to use Dead Hard, but you're missing that the value it gives is saving a pallet- you can only use it that way if you can also get a pallet stun, so it's less dodging a hit and more saving the pallet for later, at the cost of Deep Wound.
For the third, this is blatantly wrong. How the hell could you bait out someone using Dead Hard to make distance to a pallet/window they wouldn't otherwise reach? That was the entire problem with Dead Hard and by far the most common use for it, and that is now completely impossible. You cannot use it to reach tiles that were otherwise out of reach, which was absurdly strong, and thus the perk is now considerably weaker.
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Dead Hard is so much weaker than it was before and its pickrate has gone down significantly. Your rundown of the before and after there misses the most important part of old DH- the distance. The distance is what made old DH so uncounterable on top of also being really good at dodging a hit. Now, not only can you not use it for distance at all, but using it to dodge a hit also has a downside in the form of Deep Wounds.
It's also significantly weaker against M1 killers than it used to be even for dodging a hit, because "bait it out" actually works now. It's killers that have windows to hit - like Nurse, for example - that DH is now most useful against, which isn't a bad spot to be in for a perk.
So, I don't see how the objective to rework Dead Hard has failed, personally. It's weaker than it was before, it has counterplay and is no longer free value, and its pickrate went down significantly. Those are all successes. Obviously it's still a good perk, probably in the top three Exhaustion perks still, but changing that wasn't ever the goal and shouldn't be expected.
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This still isn't great, but it's vastly preferable to the skins simply never being available again, or being available at a nebulous "maybe sometime" sort of date in the future, so I'm inclined to accept it.
Seasonal cosmetics are... not ideal, there's still FOMO there, but it's not so bad it's unacceptable.
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Oh thank god, that was always such a huge annoyance for me.
If they can also adjust the incredibly obnoxious hitboxes on environmental objects, the map's gonna be pretty alright in my book.
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@scenekiller said:
I don't understand why they don't just release them all together since they clearly paid for the work to be done already lol
These are only concept sketches, though, actually making them as skins would be more work + money.
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I feel like it's a little soon to expect another major meta overhaul.
There's going to be a meta for a while, that's just how games work.
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Goddamn, I love the designs in this trailer. New survivor looks super cool, I'm a huge fan so far!
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I don't really see killers camping very much in my games, personally speaking. It's still a stronger strat than it should be, but I don't know so much about it being prevalent, I think that depends on a lot of factors like region, MMR, time of day, how the mystical rat that governs matchmaking feels, etc etc.
Personally speaking, though, I don't see much of it. A little bit more tunnelling, but the basekit measures they added for that help a lot there.
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I strongly disagree with the notion that he should start with all traps, that opens up some unpleasant possibilities when it comes to locking down areas.
What I'd suggest is that his traps all spawn closer to the centre of the map instead spread all over the place, so he can start setting up much quicker. I'd also maybe suggest a slight buff to setting speed, just to again help him play more smoothly and keep up with the faster pace that DBD takes this days.
Additionally, remove his traps from the list of things that the Map item can reveal. I've toyed with the idea that you can make a trap shine briefly when you aim a flashlight at it, because I like flashlights interacting with powers, but that part isn't necessary.
Finally, make his traps a little bit translucent at basekit so they're slightly harder to spot on all maps, and rework the Tar Bottle to provide map-appropriate camouflage instead of making traps straight darker.
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Variety is the spice of life, and at least the daytime maps aren't going to be impossibly dark to see on.
To the name argument, day still hasn't come even on those maps. It isn't real, it's a half-understood patchwork of someone else's memories swallowed by perpetual fog and twisted to fit eldritch vision. A little light isn't the same as day, metaphorically speaking.
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You know, I don't hate this. It could definitely be tested, and it'd help Bloodlust fill its intended niche without making it too busted-- it has the same downsides as Bloodlust's walking speed boost, after all. If you've reached Bloodlust 3, you've already messed up enough that this isn't going to give you that much value overall.
I don't know about it being a necessary change, but it could be a fun thing to test for sure.
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I'd love to see more RE skins- I'm also championing the idea of a Moira Burton as a legendary skin for Rebecca, I'd love to see her make it to the game.
I'd also love to see more cosplay skins. I made a thread about it before the two we got were revealed, but I wanna see the OG four survivors as STARS members, with Claudette being the medic, I'd use those skins nonstop.
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@Roaroftime said:
Dev's don't seem to have a problem reworking perks when they're survivor perks, MoM? Blast mine? No one asked for these survivor perk changes but devs did it randomly anyway when nobody asked for them. So why can't they change a killer perk e.g. 1 second delay before the gen explodes for example, easy. Literally so many people have asked for this perk to be changed and they refuse yet they change survivor perks for no reason.
So many people asked for MoM changes, both times it was changed. Same with a lot of the other perk changes that get made.
This isn't an us vs them.
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I'm liking what I see, for sure. The flashlight changes both seem pretty good and frankly a little overdue, I like the graphical change looks, and I'll absolutely be making use of the bots myself for learning new killers and such.
I have to assume this update won't have much in the way of balance changes in its patch notes, but that's fine, there's plenty in here.
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Damn, a shame, I've liked seeing him around on the forums and in the livestreams. Well, I certainly wish him the best in his future endeavours, and may even be more inclined to check that Alien game out when it's out knowing he worked on it.
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@Mandy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3244264#Comment_3244264
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/2OGROT4GCQME/20it8uw-5b1-5d.png
If you click on points shop here, you can find them there.
Thank you! Much appreciated. Definitely gonna be sticking those obsession claws on my profile now.
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Ooh, these look cool- where do you get these? I've basically never messed with Steam's profile stuff like that, haha.
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@TeleportingTurkey said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3242982#Comment_3242982
Then you're just making populist statements that don't contribute to the discussion.
It's very clear people are meaning what I explained - compensatory buffs for killers that are going to get weaker due to the change, saying they shouldn't expect these buffs because the change is temporary/not final/yadayada is just harmful to the discussion because it sends a message that none compensatory changes needed.
If a big change like that is supposed to fix an issue and not change the balance, then there must be compensatory changes so that the balance remains the same.
That's not at all what OP meant, go look at their examples. They're talking about general killer buffs that aren't connected to the specific change to slugging, because they're talking about any generic survivor buff requiring a killer buff in any area to "compensate".
Discussion about how to better balance the proposed anti-slugging changes is obviously fine but that's not what this discussion was. At the very least, if that's what OP meant they chose their words very very poorly and accidentally gave the opposite impression.
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@TeleportingTurkey said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3241621#Comment_3241621
Cool, so what are killers that rely on slugging going to do?
Oni, Twins, most killers in general in specific situations have to resort to slugging one survivor and going after another in order to generate more pressure or punish survivors for a mistake.
This basekit unbreakable does not fix hardcore 4 man slugging, if anything, it incentivises it for killers who can go for quick slugs because they can end the game quickly if they manage to pull that off, meanwhile soft slugging that is incentivised by the design of killers' powers is getting butchered.
Apparently, they are supposed to suck it up and not get jealous over changes that directly decrease their strength and take away another opportunity at punishing missplays from survivors.
I really feel that people are missing the point here. I'm not defending the basekit Unbreakable, I am talking about its purpose and specifically why it's silly to start asking "what are killers going to get".
Like, I could answer you! I could talk about how slugging would still be possible, just not a permanent solution as you get the pressure of someone having to pick themselves up + then being injured afterwards instead of the pressure of them being down until they're picked up by someone else, if I had to. That argument has some weight, and it has some holes, but to start going down that road would be a mistake because it's not relevant to the actual point here.
So I'll say again: I'm not defending the basekit Unbreakable, I think its PTB iteration was heavily flawed and needs serious work before it'll be fit for live. That's not the point that's being made here. The point is that it isn't one to one, and survivors "getting something" doesn't mean killers must also "get something".
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@ChrissKenobi57 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3237702#Comment_3237702
Part of why I ask is in fact related to skill and I know it's not a progression ladder. But my issues with it are: it doesn't give you good enough feedback on your skill to make you understand what type of people you should be paired with and many more complex issues affect the way it works. And of course, there are more pressing matters to balance the game to a point where SBMM could work better and removing it entirely in favor of connection based matchmaking would lift a lot of weight from the backs of the devs. If matchmaking is just random, then the devs will be blamed for one less thing and that's one less thing for them to worry about. But let's get to more specific stuff.
Say a streamer gets sniped by hackers for many games in a row and loses. Where could they have showcased skill? Or say someone is utterly dominating in a game and a bug prevents them from winning. They had the skill, but at the end it didn't matter. Sometimes the randomness from DBD also screws you over. You might be a great survivor, but a map just came out and it won't stop showing up on the rotation and you keep dying due to not knowing the map well. Maps are also a big factor that led me to make this post - there's barely any that are balanced. They're either super killer sided or survivor sided. And of course, people who prefer playing a particular killer or are grinding with said killer and they keep getting bad maps will struggle far more than usual. Perks feel more varied and better balanced, but maps still have issues that they had years ago. Of course, reworking maps takes time, but it feels like the newer maps have the same or worse flaws compared to old ones and the map design philosophy hasn't changed much. Gen speeds are also a problem - a killer might make gens take over 3 minutes to complete or survivors can have a team that completes all gens in less than 40 seconds and the middle ground seems all but gone. When all these factors come into play, is the SBMM really pairing people because of skill or is it just all over the place? And of course, SWF can really make the matchmaking system go haywire. It feels all over the place when you stomp team after team/killer after killer or when you get stomped non-stop and you can't gauge your skill. And if you can't gauge your skill, how will you know if who you're facing are survivors/killers of your own caliber and give proper feedback on how it's working?
It doesn't give you any feedback, because it isn't meant to. It's not even capable of giving feedback, it's just a matchmaking system.
As for your other points, I'm struggling to see the relevance of any of those examples? A matchmaking system obviously can't be built on top of things that need to be fixed, or you'll end up with a matchmaking system that may not work after you've finished fixing whichever given thing you built it to accommodate for.
Like, I absolutely agree that those problems exist, but they'd need to be fixed even with a system that was built to keep them in mind. I'm assuming we're talking about crafting a system that keeps those in mind, because it's that or just purely random matchmaking, and I hope I don't need to explain why purely random matchmaking would be a horrendously terrible idea that far outstrips any issues our current SBMM might have.
Lastly, I don't know why people say things like "how are you meant to know it's working", because... you're not? That's not your job? You're just meant to play, the matchmaking isn't meant to be treated with such inherent suspicion that players demand glimpses into the inner workings of the machine.
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Before... what?
My enjoyment of the game has generally gone up either way, but it's a pretty vague question.
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@Mooks said:
i would prefer Moira Burton over Sherry (but both would be great to have)
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/99U3V636NII6/01150068-bd88-4183-973e-812518dee9a2.png
I was just coming here to say this! I've just recently been working through Revelations 2 and I'd love to see Moira make it into DBD.
She even has a flashlight blind mechanic in her game, she's perfect!
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@Jay_K said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3241621#Comment_3241621
But what problem is basekit unbreakable solving? Slugging..which is a legit strategy. What this basekit unbreakable will actually be doing is forcing killers to play a certain way or they get heavily punished for it.
Now yes it will stop 4 man slugs at 5 gens but if the whole team gets slugged like that the game is gonna be over regardless if you unbreakable or not.
However if i down someone and there are 1 or 2 other people around ongoing i'm going to be forced to pick up because otherwise they can pick themself up for free. This stops me making the sencible option of attacking multiple survivors at once. Not to mention if another survivor is around and someone is under a pallet its a lose lose for the killer. either pick up and pallet saved or they unbreakable and drop the pallet.
All this change would do is make it imposible to pick up a survivor as long as there is someone else around under a pallet. meaning all survivors will run in pairs to ensure no one ever gets hooked.
I agree with OP if base kit unbreakable becomes a thing there has to be a counter to it that killers get else your just unnessesarally buffing survivors and screwing over killers (even those who don't hardcore slug)
Slugging is a legitimate strategy, that is true. Following through from that statement, because it is a legitimate strategy there should probably be basekit answers to it. Additionally, we don't gain anything from ignoring the fact that slugging is supremely boring, lol.
Like I said, I'm not necessarily defending this specific change, it has very clear gaps and needs changes before it's ready for live, but it's the exact same deal as the Borrowed Time change. It's not a gift, it's not favouritism, it's just fixing a problem. Anything killers need should be done too, but they're not linked, one doesn't require an equal change on the other side.
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Not to defend the basekit Unbreakable necessarily (at least in its PTB form, it needs hefty tweaking), but there's no reason to assume a one-to-one trade where killers must get something if the survivor side gets something. We're not spoiled siblings, here, there's no need to get jealous.
The basekit Unbreakable is being pitched as the solution to a problem. It's not a gift, or a show of favouritism.
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I'm not actually totally sure what the survivor meta is right now, so forgive me if my picks stray too close to that, but...
Botany Knowledge/Streetwise/Kindred/Fourth slot open though I run Prove Thyself a fair amount there. Bring a medkit with it, and you've got Botany's insane speed boost with no downsides, you've got Kindred because it's necessary for solo queue, and a fourth slot for whatever utility you feel you're missing.
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@Edilibs said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3240654#Comment_3240654
Trapper can do the same thing she does but work much less and get better results! Sadako has a in game slowdown that is better than Pigs because of her overall kit!
Pig literally has nothing going for her! Her beartraps and getting them off at Jigsaw boxes occur from attempt 2-5 (in actuality rng is not a reliable thing in games as it is too inconsistent), shes slow and her "bad maps" are worse than other killers with the same bad maps! As i mentioned already her ability is only subpar as it gets countered by Spine Chill, Premonition and Stake Out so they're already off the gen and getting distance on you and her ability at loops (non stealth) is only okay at "certain" loops, usually the bad ones!
She is at D+ and not at D or C+! Pig is a joke man!
It's attempt 1-4, but getting all four traps off requires 12 total searches, as per the new update that smoothed out her RNG considerably and made her slowdown far more reliable. People are mechanically incapable of removing all their traps first try now, which means that you will get slowdown out of her traps if everyone has one put on.
I'm not gonna argue with you about the ambush because it is pretty bad, it's easily the worst part of her kit. The stealth itself is... fine, it's not amazing, but you can use it to sneak up on survivors, that isn't countered by Spine Chill anymore. Also, who uses Premonition, lol?
What does Trapper do better, exactly? They don't really do the same thing.
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@Edilibs said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3240629#Comment_3240629
Wrong Jester! You are incorrect! Her headpops made up for the fact that she is a weak "slow" killer! Ok "one" or "maybe" two survivors are off gens....ok, while another survivor is in chase (Pigs bigger issue) they are going to the jigsaw box and removing it and then "right back" on the gen so your so called "in game slowdown" did absolutely nothing! lol
So your wrong Pig "needs" headpops to be even viable bit due to the nerfs and current iteration of Pig she will mostly never get headpops! This killer is sad why are you trying to defend her as if shes not a bad killer?
In that scenario, while you're in chase with one survivor, those other two are going to Jigsaw boxes to remove the traps (taking between one and four boxes to do), and then they're back on gens.
For any other low tier killer, you're in a chase with one survivor, and the other three are all on generators.
It's not that I'm defending her, it's that I think you're wrong. The slowdown she brings bumps her up out of D tier, and it's at the bottom of C tier where she remains. It's not that good, she's still weak, but she's not literally the worst.
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@Edilibs said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3240610#Comment_3240610
Sadako is a strong killer you are bugging! "Amanda" is garbage dont ever bring up her and Sadako in the same sentence ever again! lol
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3240612#Comment_3240612
You know whats funny..the way you make it sound (in game slowdown etc) Pig is decent but she is not and the whole "she has her own in game slowdown" is an illusion bc she cant get headpops anymore and survivors are getting they're traps off tbe second or third box and boom "right" back on a gen! Trash!
...But that is game delay? What you're describing is game delay, they're spending enough time to run to two or three different boxes, and they're not on generators while they're doing that. If you're a good killer, and you have good map awareness + know what you're doing with Pig's kit, that's far more time than most other killer powers can give you.
She doesn't need headpops. She needs survivors to be scared of headpops so they stop working on generators and prevent the headpops.
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I disagree that she's the weakest. Her ambush is pretty rubbish, but she has some kinda-sorta reliable stealth (IE, you use it to sneak up, not to charge an ambush) and she has some really solid game delay. She isn't that great, I'd put her around low C tier, but there are killers that couldn't dream of delaying the game like Pig.
Pig's one of those killers that does have some value, you just have to really work for it. A killer like Clown, while definitely weaker than Pig, is a lot easier to approach- the bottles provide much less value but it provides that value much easier than Pig's bear traps and stealth. It's easier to just throw a bottle and get a hit than it is to really capitalise on the value that Pig provides.
Still, she is weaker than she needs to be, she could use some buffs.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3239090#Comment_3239090
I like how he calls it "changes I'd make to killers" then, even though he totally goes outside of that.
Viable to me means viable in tournament. I would hope that's not unique to me, because it's weird to talk about viability as a completely separate thing from how good they are in tournament. How could a killer be good in one competitive environment, but not in another? It's as if you're talking about viability vs bad survivors.
Nobody's asking for killer buffs right now, except maybe for Sadako, but those get shot down real quick because people justify her weakness by talking about that 1 niche build that needs a pink add-on to work. Everybody's saying every killer is fine; what rock are you living under? They just say, "Oh 6.1.0 happened, so now killers have nothing to complain about." Yep, suddenly Freddy and Pig win loads of chases I guess.
You are right about the perks. They weren't nerfed because they were strong; they were nerfed to appease baby survivors. "What? Killer gets 1/4 of a gen for hooking one person? Pop OP!" Even though there were games where the killer got like 7-8 hooks AND used Pop/Pain Res every time they could have, and still lost, not even playing badly. Ruin destroying itself after a survivors dies, and NOED revealing itself, are absolutely made for casual survivors.
You're just proving what I'm saying. "Pig's okay now because she's stronger." She used to have a smaller terror radius, quicker going into crouch, and more, and she still wasn't okay. So what big change did she get that made her strong? What did any killer get, besides attack cooldown buffs and kicking speed buffs that were years overdue? All I've seen is nerfs, to the most unviable killers at that, like with Wraith, Deathslinger, Clown, and Pinhead.
...What? He uses that angle to specifically stay in the lane of making changes to killers, he says that Wraith's changes would be very small because what he needs aren't changes to the killer.
Regarding viability, I'm not sure why it would be weird to talk about them as completely separate, since they are completely separate competitive environments. Tournaments are not the average game of DBD, and what's viable in one isn't necessarily viable in the other. This isn't unique to DBD, pick any game with a tournament/E-sport scene and it'll be a very different beast to most people's matches.
People are absolutely asking for killer buffs, I commented on a few posts talking about killers being weak just yesterday. I think you might have some selection bias happening over there, friend.
The perks were changed to shake up the stale meta, and it happened on both sides. It's not to "appease baby survivors", come on now.
Finally, where did I say Pig was fine? I didn't say that at all, I said she was buffed. You said she was nerfed, and that is objectively wrong, she was buffed. Is she fine? Eh, not really, she's still on the weaker side and I'd still like to see her get a few buffs, but that's irrelevant because neither I nor you were talking about that- we were talking about whether her most recent change was a nerf, which it wasn't.
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@MaTtRoSiTy said:
Yeah it is janky to say the least, I feel they should have at least had things like gens and skill checks be the same as DBD. I only played one survivor match as I just wanted the cosmetic but it was confusing how to even redeem that and I couldn't be bothered. I will fire up PUBG again and try to figure out how to actually get the cosmetic though... (cant say no to free stuff)
Short version: Open the browser tab for the event from PUBG's main menu and play a match, you'll then have the option to redeem the code for the Dwight skin.
It's kinda weird.
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It's pretty fun in a goofy way, but man, after the precedent set by For Honor's super cool zone defence Trapper mode, I was a little disappointed lol.
Ah well. Got the Dwight skin, I'm good.
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@danielmaster87 said:
I'm gonna be honest, I tuned out after I heard him say Wraith is fine. Just off of hearing that, I know his changes wouldn't be enough to make killers viable. We're still doing this as a community, operating on an outdated sense of balance. People think that killers are fine now, and so any killer buffs automatically will make the killers OP. In reality, our proposed buffs are something that should have happened years ago, and since they haven't, people have become accustomed to how weak killer is and they're afraid of that changing. It's why any recent killer buff is this huge radical thing. We're pushing for killers to become viable, while also pushing them to be at least playable, but most want to settle for them just being playable even though in their minds, that's viable.
Let's look at some examples, just so my word salad isn't so confusing. Most people agreed before Trapper got his buffs, he wasn't fine. Same with Clown. But now that they are where they are, people don't want to buff them anymore. They say, "They're fine" knowing full well, I hope, that those killers aren't even a sliver viable, seeing as how nobody plays them in tourney. "Most people don't play at tourney level." Maybe not, but I still think it's relevant that there's such a disparity between the power level of Trapper/Clown and Nurse/Blight that killer players don't even attempt to use them in tourney, because they know there's nowhere near enough potential to win with them.
Let's look at more, at perks specifically. Original Pop was fine by me. Those claims that you could go on a whole other chase and get down, and then still be able to kick a gen with it 100% of the time, were pure bogus. With 60-second Pop we struggled to kick gens before they were finished or to get there in time off of doing a 20-second chase. Now it's 45 seconds and does sub-20% to a gen. Not good at all, and neither is Corrupt. You get 1 down, you lose your early game slowdown. "But you still get insane value." Clearly we have different definitions of insane. Ruin/Undying wasn't that strong, and it definitely wouldn't have been with Counterforce and boons being introduced, but that got taken away as well.
The nerfs to killers specifically are the most unforgivable part. Spirit forces the survivors to mindgame and improvise, instead of the other way around? Nerf it! Freddy has 1 good slowdown add-on and a bit of anti-loop? Nerf it! Wraith has almost anti-loop as an M1? Nerf. Deathslinger has good aim? Nerf. Pinhead can actually interrupt getting his power taken away for 60 seconds? Nerf. Pig has 1 niche strat that can get kills? Nerf for like the third time. Hillbilly gets overheat for using his power. Twins has cooldowns and animations on everything. Nemesis takes so many hits with his power to get out of tier 1. It's crazy all the killer nerfs that have happened in just the past 2 years. I can't be the only one who notices it.
Killers need to be able to something to survivors at loops. If they can just drop the pallet early and not be mindgamed, we need to fix that. Gen speeds being quick as they are, we either need chases to end quicker or gen regression to be significant, but we have neither right now. We need perks and strategies that reward multiple chases and hooks to be incentivized, not punished or taken away. We can't take away things like Bloodlust or god forbid Entity Blocker without overhauling loops and whole maps in a significant way. We need survivors to be downable within reason, not being able to 1v1 any killer for 3+ gens. We need killers to be able to hook survivors. Unless Otz's killer changes addressed all this stuff, I literally don't want to hear it anymore.
I can back up all of this, also. Can't simply turn most of it into a numbers crunch, but I can tell you how I believe the game is from personal experience and watching others. Name any killer nerf, any survivor buff, any new map, any new perks, and I'll give my thoughts on it. Just don't be surprised when I'm pessimistic about any of it, as I'm someone who's played killer and played it well.
I'd say you probably shouldn't have tuned out at that point, because Otz goes on to make a good point; namely, that Wraith's problems do not stem from his basekit. When Wraith struggles - which he does, and Otz openly states that he does - it's because of unbalanced map design and other such external factors that would need to be changed anyway even if Wraith specifically got some tools to deal with them. From that angle, Wraith is fine-- or at the very least, the perspective that he is fine is a reasonable one, even if you don't agree with it.
To tackle some of your other points- I see where you're coming from with viability, but it's a very flawed metric you're using. Trapper and Clown could both be perfectly viable in standard play and you'd still never see them in a tournament, because tournaments are where you only bring the absolute best, not just whatever you have a good chance of winning with. As a brief side note- who's saying they're fine? I've seen multiple threads about buffing Trapper and I don't see many people speaking that favourably of Clown. I'm pretty sure most people do want them buffed.
As for the perk nerfs, those weren't done because the perks in question were too strong, so it's mostly irrelevant to this topic.
For the killer nerfs, it's obvious that most of those changes (especially ones like Spirit and Deathslinger) were done for good reason and not just because it made those killers more viable or whatever, but the thing I especially want to highlight is that it's kinda super disingenuous to frame Pig's five-box, trap removal buffs as a nerf simply because it removed the AFK Pig strat. Pig's better now than she was before those changes, she got buffed in that update.
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Massive vindication when his Nurse suggestions were almost verbatim the same as mine, haha.
Otherwise, I think most of his suggestions are good. There are some I think might be a little questionable, and I'd handle certain killers differently, but overall he's got a pretty decent perspective on how to change each killer. Most of the stuff I disagree with is when he suggests simply disabling powers near hook, I don't think that's the right call to tackle camping- though certain others like Trickster's knife damage not interrupting unhooks would be a good change, that I agree with.
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I installed to give it a shot, and I admire the effort but it's... really not great. Kinda janky, kinda clunky, I also don't think I've gotten a single full lobby in the five or so games I've played so far. I did get the Dwight skin though, so I got all that I need to out of the event for a DBD player.
Maybe I'll give PUBG's normal modes a try. Maybe that'll spur me to get the Nurse cosmetic for that game...
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I'm not sure I'm following the post here, could you elaborate?
The point of the SBMM system, as is the point of all MMR systems, is to sort you into general skill brackets to make the matches you get more fairly balanced than something purely random or, in DBD's case specifically, more fairly balanced than the emblem system. That's a low bar, so I'm not praising the system by saying it passes it, but it is the bar and it is passed.
Is this a longer version of the whole "wins don't indicate skill" misunderstanding? The last paragraph makes me think it is, so I can cover that briefly- the misconception there is that a single win or loss matters much for your MMR, and it doesn't. You have to win or lose consistently before your MMR changes all that much, because it's based on your overall performance, not how you play within one match. It's not a progression ladder, you aren't getting meaningful feedback (or any feedback at all for that matter) at the end of a match.
Let me know if I misunderstood your point, of course, but if I didn't- the system could absolutely use some improvements but it is better than the emblem system and the core design is extremely standard.
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@Darkest_Night said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3235565#Comment_3235565
His add ons got buffed. Not very well, but
So did his basekit. He got to carry two traps at once, the amount of traps that spawn in the trial was set instead of being randomised, and in a separate update a little before the big one he got the escape chance normalised so they're more consistent.
The addon changes were largely very good, too, he has far fewer useless addons and because he isn't forced to run a trap capacity addon he has far more varied builds too.
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I don't really see any reason to show it? I can't think of any other game that would show you the inner workings of its matchmaker like that, the only time you'd see a number in that general area would be in a ranked mode.
Besides, thinking about the knock-on effects that it'd have makes me shudder. "uhm actually my MMR is [x] so i know better than you" ad nauseum, eugh.
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@Bloodraven said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3235565#Comment_3235565
Good lord I'd love it if his traps spawned a bit closer to the middle, I never thought of that, ...would make Mother's Dwelling a shade more bearable 😂
For sure, there are some situations where a trap spawns so far away that you'll realistically never get to use it, and I think that could easily be improved.
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Trapper got some pretty respectable buffs relatively recently, so I imagine he's not on the radar for buffs for a little while. Still, it'd be nice to see some more love, he's still suffering in a few ways.
Personally, I'd love to see his traps spawn closer to the centre of the map so he doesn't have to go extremely out of his way to actually have access to all of his power.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3234601#Comment_3234601
Aren't you lucky? Survivors who know what they're doing though are bringing the best exhaustion perk, as before. And as before, it's still Dead Hard. No distance, but still free mindgames, option selects which are new, sprint burst from getting hit, and a mere 40s of exhaustion. I don't see the downgrade. Good luck beating 4 of them.
Again, my experience is only anecdotal, I bring it up to highlight that it is anecdotal. You're seeing four of them every game, I'm seeing much fewer than before. Neither of us have the full picture, because we're just one player, that's why it's relevant that we know its pickrate and we know it's gone down.
As for it still being Dead Hard... is it? It no longer has its most overpowered feature, the free distance and chase reset, and it now puts you in Deep Wound if it successfully works. I won't argue against it still being strong, of course it is, but it's not at all the same perk as it was before. The downgrade is pretty glaringly obvious.
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@danielmaster87 said:
Nope. Everyone still runs it. Is it shocking that matches where 3-4 people have brought Dead Hard are like 10 times harder than normal ones?
But everyone isn't still running it. We've seen the dev's stats, Dead Hard's overall usage went down by about half. This is also corroborated by that one stat-tracking site, as mentioned earlier in this thread.
Any one player's experience is anecdotal so mine is about as meaningless as yours, but for the record, I've absolutely seen fewer people bring it in my matches. Much more Lithe and Sprint Burst than before, and about the same amount of Balanced Landing or Head On.
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It did- it made the perk just "good" instead of overpowered, it made the perk take skill and timing to use instead of being a free chase extension, and it dropped the pickrate of the perk by a significant amount.
Dead Hard is still the most picked Exhaustion perk iirc because it is still genuinely good, but it's nowhere near its old pickrate nor its old strength.