jesterkind
jesterkind
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Thankfully, that's being fixed in the next hotfix, according to their twitter thread on bugfixes and the like.
It is very annoying, though.
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@daniel_owenz said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3285083#Comment_3285083
Nope those are also perks, the cannibal has a unique perk, we're talking about unique add ons, perks give killers side abilities, add ons are mainly used to BOOST the killers main ability or compliment it, not give it a brand new perk like ability.
I would strongly recommend going and reading the addon descriptions on the wiki, because the effects I'm describing are ALSO on several addons. The Twins can equip Franklin's Demise to make survivors drop their items when Charlotte hits them, AND the Spinning Top addon to make survivors drop their items when Victor hits them. One is a perk, one is an addon.
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@daniel_owenz said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3285071#Comment_3285071
Buddy those are PERKS not add ons, you just proved my point lol. An add on is next to the offering section, it isn't part of the perks section. 😂
Did you... did you read what I wrote...?
There are killers who have addons which give the same effect as those two perks. For example, Cannibal and Twins both have an addon that causes survivors to drop their items when hit by the chainsaw and Victor respectively, which is the effect of Franklin's Demise. Killers also have addons that inflict Mangled and Haemorrhage with their power, the effect of Sloppy Butcher.
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...Tons of killers have perks for addons? The effects of Sloppy Butcher and Franklin's Demise are extremely common for addons, for example, and Freddy also has a Blood Warden addon which is the exact same "perk as addon" thing you're complaining about here.
Also, you don't have to pay to know about this, you just have to go against it once and read the addon description. Or, if you really don't want to risk losing to it even once, go read the addons on the wiki. Plenty of killers have addons way stronger and way more impactful than this, so as a survivor you really need to know what to look out for in general.
Finally I'd be remiss not to mention that this really wouldn't be a problem if you just left. Survivors waiting at the exit gates just to teabag is a bad thing, punishing it with addons and perks is good.
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@TAG said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3284642#Comment_3284642
I was only referring to the characters you mentioned. I know Deathslinger hard counters the snowman. As far as the killers that barely lose time as a result, those are the killers that are already considered good to begin with. The killers that already struggle are hurt that much more by that additional bubble. As by my standards, if the Survivor is taking a hit, not going down, and slowing the Killer down while they are able to run at normal speed, that is effectively a third health state. If baiting with old DH was able to count, this definitely does.
The first two examples you mention are bad gameplay, and the third won't happen if they successfully tank the hit. I repeat, bad players being bad doesn't make the unbalanced tool balanced. It's like saying new DH sucks because the Survivors can't time it right. The better you are, the more you'll be able to abuse it.
Yes, a few killers were hit unfairly by the snowmen, that much I'll agree with. Pure M1 killers also had to do a little bit of positional work before they could render the snowmen borderline useless, and I wouldn't mind further disincentivising using them in chase, since that's already not what they're for. Something like not putting the killer into the cooldown wipe would be fine- not necessary, but fine, to make it more clear the snowmen aren't for chases.
As for bad players playing badly, sure. But the problem is trying to use them in chase at all was already using them badly, because they don't actually provide value in a majority of scenarios. The stars have to align that you're playing against an M1 killer that isn't using STBFL and doesn't know the trick about standing in front of the snowman, and it's only at that point which you get... the amount of distance you get running normally from a killer's weapon wipe animation, without any guarantee about what else you have around to run to. IE... a free protection hit, not a third health state, when the stars align to let you get it.
Not a bad place for an event gimmick that clearly was designed for other uses, eh?
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@TAG said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3284633#Comment_3284633
Fair point on Cannibal, but for the rest (including Trickster), that still means they have to deal with effectively a third health state.
How is it not a tool for chase-based gameplay? You get chased, you run into a snowman/pallet, you jump in/drop it before getting hit, you survive, you keep running.
Deathslinger doesn't either. As for the others, "third health state" only matters if it actually adds noticeable time to a chase, which it does not for the killers on that list. It's also still deeply misleading to use the phrase "third health state" when there is no speed boost. What people are arguing isn't actually that the snowmen are a third health state, it's that they're a free protection hit, which is a different thing. Nemesis, for instance, actually does have to deal with a third health state, because infection gives a speed boost.
You get chased, you run into a snowman, you jump in- oops, you got hit during the animation. Okay, next chase, you run into a snowman, you're far enough away that you finish the animation- oops, the killer's power says no. Next game, you run into a snowman, you're far enough away that you finish the animation, the killer uses an M1- oops, you go down/get injured a few seconds later because you got no distance. They're not designed for chases and the stars have to align before you even get any value from trying to use them that way.
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@TAG said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3284626#Comment_3284626
From what I am reading, Cannibal, Trickster, Huntress, Demo, Nurse, and Pyramid Head all only pop the snowman.
I stand by what I said about the rest of STBFL.
We are talking about an in-trial object that grants a Survivor immunity from a single hit from most attacks in exchange for being slowed down and being unable to do anything else while the shield is up. That is objectively what we are discussing.
Cannibal and Trickster pop the snowman without ending their power, so they can both just keep going and damage the survivor too. Cannibal and Deathslinger are the best picks if you really want to just ignore the snowmen entirely, but the others all pop the snowman and can ready up another hit very quickly, given the lack of distance and randomised placement.
Yep. But that shield isn't a tool given to survivors for chase-based gameplay, it's a gimmick for an event that is geared towards either goofing off or stealthing. That context doesn't go away and can't be ignored, it's just as important as every other element of this discussion.
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@ByeByeQ said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3284479#Comment_3284479
Yes, they do care about it. But certainly not in a way to be considered even slightly for the Labor of Love award.
If BHVR clearly cared about DbD and were passionate about making it great, an actual labor of love, then hacking would have been addressed years ago not just recently put on a roadmap after having their hands forced by top Fog Whisperers. Also they would have made QoL a priority and not an afterthought. Doing bloodwebs and finding perks is painful because the UI is still stuck in 2017. DbD is clearly on the back burner while they work on other projects like Meet Your Maker.
That's why some players can get angry about it, because for them it is plain as day and they feel like they love DbD more than the developers do.
Then don't vote for it, if you don't think the quality warrants it.
That doesn't translate to it somehow being disqualified even though it clearly meets the criteria for being nominated.
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@TAG said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3284620#Comment_3284620
From what I am reading, most powers do not beat the snowman. As far as STBFL, that is only reasonable once it is at high stacks. It also means the obsession has free reign over the snowmen. Even if it were a viable answer, not everyone has it, and they certainly shouldn't feel obligated to get it to not be at the mercy of a seasonal event.
Bad players making bad use of an unbalanced tool does not make that tool balanced. :P
Off the top of my head- Doctor, Deathslinger, Cannibal, Trickster, Huntress, and Pyramid Head all directly prevent snowmen from being useful in some way or another. Demogorgon, Nemesis, Nurse, and I'd imagine Wesker all make getting that extra hit so trivial with the lack of distance that they functionally also do the same.
Yes, STBFL needs high stacks. You also get high stacks by hitting snowmen.
Certainly, but we aren't talking about an unbalanced tool. We're not talking about a tool at all, we're talking about an event gimmick, and it's balanced enough to be presented for a brief window with the intent of either goofy fun or hide and seek.
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@TAG said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3284600#Comment_3284600
Again, not much different from pallets that they have no control over where they spawn. They are occasionally scattered throughout the map, and they enable a Survivor to jump in to avoid being downed. As far as DH for distance, I specifically said DH for bait becaus obviously the real power of old DH was DH for distance. The snowmen were still better than DH for bait.
I'm looking one or two videos right now, and I'm seeing Survivors making good distance from a tank hit. Obviously not to the same extent as a god pallet, but it ain't just a few seconds from running from a weapon wipe animation.
As far as M1s and STBFL, only a handful of M2s beat the snowmen, and as you said, not reasonable to assume the Killer does or does not have that perk, so injecting it into the convo doesn't seem reasonable on either end.
I said the opposite- it's not reasonable to assume no killer will have STBFL in an event where it will be much stronger. If nothing else, if we're talking about survivors who insist on trying to use snowmen in chase and we're acting as though their minimal value is still too much, then circumventing it with STBFL and the many powers that either directly eliminate the snowmen or diminish their effectiveness even further are pretty much the only fair thing to start talking about.
I remember the old event. I remember how many survivors were hit during the enter animation, and I remember how many survivors went down a handful of seconds after the snowman they hid in was hit. I remember how many powers just did not care about the snowmen, too. It was a massively overblown and frankly embarrassing reaction then, and I'm not looking forward to it picking back up again when this event hits.
Of course, I still hope they made some changes to let the three or so specific killers who were harmed by the event flourish, but even if they didn't... it's no huge burden to just not play those killers for two weeks or so.
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@TAG said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3284572#Comment_3284572
The time extended is definitely going to be longer than five seconds, considering the Survivor gets to move at normal speed after tanking the hit but the Killer still has to go through the hitstun animation. So yeah, at minimum, it is creating more distance than a successful bait using old DH.
Right, but they have to move through the killer and they have absolutely zero control over where the snowman is, so it's dramatically different than old Dead Hard. Old DH gave you more distance at the specific point where distance gets you to a loop, but the snowmen spawn randomly and you'd need to be pretty lucky for that smaller distance to be anywhere near as impactful as old DH.
The weapon-wipe animation isn't actually that long if you don't have the speed boost from being injured. Once again, we're also assuming it is an M1 and that the killer isn't bringing STBFL, which are both pretty huge assumptions to make during an event where doing the opposite of that is a better idea.
(We're also assuming both parties are stubbornly refusing to engage with the event as intended, but that's a more fair assumption for this type of conversation. Just should be acknowledged.)
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@TAG said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3284557#Comment_3284557
1) No, I'm aware of the animation. To me, that's not much different from getting hit during the pallet drop animation.
2) It doesn't matter if you get zero boost because you still extend the chase longer than you would have by just going down.
It's very different, it's more like being hit during the window vault animation. It's more than long enough that a survivor needs a head start before jumping in a snowman is even remotely viable, which leads us to the second point again.
It matters a lot, actually. Yes, you can say that extending the chase by five seconds is strictly longer than it would've been otherwise, but to say that's unbalanced and an "objective buff" for survivors would be laughable. It'd be like getting mad at being spun.
This is all, again, giving the extremely charitable assumption that it's an M1 hit that we're talking about, and not a power.
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@TAG said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3284520#Comment_3284520
My understanding and watching of videos indicated to me that it was a third health state, though. Jump into the snowman before the Killer landed a hit, and they'd tank the hit. The slowdown did not matter because Killer either accepted the free health state or ended the chase. Lose/lose for Killer. What am I missing?
Two things- you are missing that jumping into the snowman had an animation that you could still be damaged during, and you are missing that you got zero speed boost from the snowman being hit. You get precisely the distance you'd get during the killer's weapon-wipe animation, if they hit you with an M1 and not one of the many powers that just completely invalidates the snowman.
Assuming they did hit you with an M1, they could also further minimise the distance you got by hitting the front of the snowman, as the survivor always jumps out facing forward, meaning they jump into the killer and have to run further away.
The snowmen did screw over a handful of powers, though, so there are valid criticisms to be had of the event, but it wasn't an "objective buff" for survivors like some are claiming.
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We're back to this before the event even begins?
It wasn't a third health state last year, so if it remains the same in the important areas, it won't be this year either. Survivors could be hit going in so they couldn't be used in chase, and survivors were slow as balls + couldn't perform actions while inside the snowmen so they couldn't be pre-entered without serious downsides. They had no tactical use unless you were playing against specific killers, and even then it was situational.
Hopefully, they fixed specific killers being screwed over, like Ghostface and Twins. But for the majority, snowmen provided zero tactical use for survivors and were only fun goofy nonsense.
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I have never understood this anger. Of course DBD deserves to be nominated for this award, it's been consistently updated for six years and its developers clearly care about it.
I certainly understand not wanting to vote for it if you aren't happy with the changes being made, but incredulously repeating the phrase "labour of love" makes no sense because... yeah. It is. That part isn't incorrect.
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I do hope that they adjusted some of the specific killer power interactions that could be a little unfun. The last Bone Chill was fantastic, but you basically couldn't play Twins or Ghostface, and the snowmen interacted a little oddly with a few other powers like Doctor's shock ability, which would break the snowman but not unlock any cosmetics for some reason.
If they've tweaked a few of those interactions, I'll be ecstatic.
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The pickrate is significantly lower. I forget the exact numbers but its overall pickrate was reduced by about half, that's much lower.
That's also not the only reason Dead Hard was nerfed. It was included in the meta shakeup patch, but it was also overpowered. Since it's no longer overpowered, and it has a much lower pickrate, I don't really think anything needs to be done with it?
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@Nathan13 said:
I thought small game didn’t trigger if you were near a boon??
It does, it'll do its little ping sound and go on cooldown if you look in the direction of an active boon.
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@kingcarl2012 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/356555/small-game-boons
If your blind I'm pretty sure you cant see the boon totem aura, like on a gen when the killer uses fearmonger.
Hmm, true, but you can still see the boon totem overlay, like the blue fireflies looking thing in the air. I can't think of any scenarios you'd need to know specifically where the totem itself is, if it's already lit.
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I don't know that I necessarily have a top five, but I can definitely say I dislike Nurse because the fatigue mechanic frustrates me, I dislike Spirit because I have super bad hearing, and I dislike Ghostface because I'm bad at him lol
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To be fair, that addon was his absolute strongest for a long time. It's only since they started adding light maps with no grass that bringing the Tar Bottle started becoming a lot less useful, and you start running the risk of harming yourself if you bring it on Eyrie or Coldwind.
So, it's not a "many years" situation. It was incredible, and it's recently become pretty weak.
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...If this is the RE3 flavour, is there an RE2 flavour called the Tea-Series?
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I'd rather they fix the lack of information in SoloQ first, before adding gimmick stuff like this. I'm not against it, but there'd be a heavy temptation to act like this feature would fix SoloQ, which couldn't be further from the truth.
Also I'd disable it permanently, personally speaking.
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@ByeByeQ said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3279430#Comment_3279430
That isn't the point. 6.1.0 was hailed as a "Balance" patch. The regression perks should have been balanced with each other. Instead they did overtuned changes that did change the meta, but the game is still brutally unbalanced.
Ruin would be in the perfect place in the balance right now if they only added the effect of deactivation on a survivor's death. It would be at a comparable strength to other regression perks rather than being a dead perk.
I miss the Undying Ruin meta. Searching for totems is much more fun that being incapacitated.
I think more regression perks should deactivate once a survivor is dead. Then killers running massive regression builds would at least have a disincentive not to tunnel. (But then they'll slug... sigh.)
6.1.0 was hailed as a meta shakeup patch, specifically. That's what the posts explaining the changes kept saying, that it was to shake up the meta by changing a bunch of perks. The intent then is clearly to change the meta, which means the perks that used to be meta need to be much less useful, otherwise nobody would ever swap off them.
I'd agree about other regression perks having the deactivation requirement, though. Definitely something worth exploring.
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@WorthlessBeing said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3279418#Comment_3279418
They're touchy because you're not supposed to have fun.
Clearly lol
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That is the point, to be fair. You're supposed to run other slowdown perks, because Ruin was in the meta for far too long.
I'm sure it and a few others can be buffed again much later on down the line, but the point right now is not to run Hex: Ruin unless you're trying a build that specifically involves it somehow.
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The part that I don't understand is when a team tries these absurdly reckless moves, fails, and then gets mad at me in the post-game chat. Really feels like they're only having fun with the game when they're winning...
Don't get me wrong, I love going against hyper-altruistic "bully" squads who try bodyblocking and flashlight saves more than they try doing generators, I find those the most fun matches DBD has to offer. It just seems like those squads get super touchy and mad about losing even though they're clearly throwing the match for a laugh.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3278393#Comment_3278393
Survivors don’t have constant aura reading with Fogwise. It isn’t Object of Obsession.
They don't have constant aura reading with OoO, either, it's a slight embellishment.
What they have with Fogwise is very consistent aura reading, as it's only held back by how frequently skill checks spawn. One guy hugging generators can give pretty consistent information as to where the killer is at basically all times if they're good enough at hitting skill checks, which isn't that hard.
Personally speaking I think Fogwise is probably fine. I just don't think it's absurd to question its design, since the more consistently you can read the killer's aura, the stronger that effect is.
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If by "boon totems" you specifically mean Circle of Healing, that actually was OP.
As for Fogwise and Potential Energy, I think you're probably right that anyone complaining about the latter is being a little touchy. It seems strong, but by no means overpowered. Fogwise might be different, though- I've been meaning to test it myself but on paper it sounds very strong.
Constant aura reading on the killer is a very strong effect, especially when you're on comms with people. It's worth investigating, at least.
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They are not, no.
BHVR seem to understand that they need to look at the game as a whole, and that the idea of them being "[x] sided" is a silly and unhelpful way of looking at game balance, so that's why you get decisions like giving the Knight lots of telegraphed tells and decisions like the massive killer buffs in 6.1.0.
There's a wider picture than two "sides", which is why anyone arguing that they're one-sided has to cherrypick certain decisions while ignoring others.
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I've noticed the same thing, but I guess to be fair you do need that space. The orb projects forwards, and the guards can't phase through those objects, so you need to actually have the free air in front of you for the guards to spawn.
Though, not being able to enter the power to break pallets without stepping away is a lot more annoying. Then again, I just wish you could command guards to break things without going into orb mode anyway...
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Damn, is that what it is? That's definitely way too excessive. Five wouldn't be a bad number if it were just starting Hunts, but the Guards getting the hits themselves is way less in your control, especially for five.
Would love to see that lowered too.
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Outside of the bugged interaction with Make Your Choice and Devour Hope, the Knight's built-in anti camp measures are enough, in my opinion.
Since even beginning the unhook animation causes the guard to disappear, they can't really be used to interrupt or prevent an unhook. It's a much smoother and more intuitive method of preventing camping, I much prefer it to the power simply being disabled.
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I don't think the unhook notification is necessarily a bad thing. There is the argument that it lets the killer know to circle back around and tunnel the unhooked survivor, but the equally valid counterargument is that it tells the killer to circle back around and chase the unhooker instead.
More pressing than that, though, I think it's worth mentioning that if we did decide the unhook notification made it too easy to tunnel, it can't just be removed. It'd have to be very carefully adjusted with compensatory changes elsewhere so as to not just deprive killers of relevant information while they're going about fair and above-board games. It's a little too entrenched in how the game operates to be a fair change on its own.
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What's wrong with it? I played a match on it yesterday and nothing immediately jumped out at me as broken.
Granted, that match didn't go normally because one guy DCed at five gens, but still.
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There's nothing actually wrong with thirst bait, though...?
Like, I certainly get not personally enjoying it - shirtless dude skins aren't my thing either - but "lore skins" and "shirtless/thirst bait skins" are on wholly equal levels, one isn't better than the other. Horror as a genre is built on horniness, so these skins fit seamlessly into the vibe of the game.
Heck, Vittorio does have other skins for purchase too. I'd like to see some more medieval garb too, but the existence of the shirtless skins isn't taking their place or anything, they're all valid types of cosmetics.
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@TeabaggingGhostface said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3271973#Comment_3271973
The dlc isn't out for ps4 yet sadly, I'll probably nab it when it releases, are any of the new items extremely nutty at large numbers?
I'll get re2 soon, mr x probably my favourite enemy from what ive seen
Delicate Watch increases your base damage by a flat 20% per stack (but it breaks if you fall below a certain threshold of health), and that can get pretty wild. It's mostly Void items you'll be wanting to keep an eye out for, most of them are really strong- including the corrupted Bungus which is unironically really good.
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@TeabaggingGhostface said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3271949#Comment_3271949
Ds3 is fun, though unfortunately has too many twinks in the low level areas running disgusting stuff, its still fun to mess about on, currently 1/3 (including dlcs) through a ds2 run with a buddy, just got to dragon aerie, will fight the horse when i have 900 fire defense
Risk of rain 2 is pretty good, i like using huntress for aerial attacking, is the dlc any good?
I still need to play both resident evil and silent hill games
The DLC is worth it for Railgunner alone, who I adore and will call my favourite survivor for at least a little while. The new items are usually pretty useful, the new stages are pretty, Void Fiend is pretty fun and Simulacrum is... fine. All in all I'd say the DLC is worth it for sure, but maybe check out the stuff that's in it through videos or something first.
I can also recommend most of the main RE games! The remakes especially are utterly fantastic.
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I've been getting back into Dark Souls 3 myself, it's the only one in the series I own and have played. (I also play it with mouse and keyboard, a fact I like mentioning occasionally to make Souls fans recoil in horror)
Other than that, I play a lot of roguelikes- I recently got 100% achievements in Risk of Rain 2, which is one of the best games in the genre imo. Really good game, highly recommend.
Oh, and I adore the Resident Evil franchise, been playing it through for the first time this year. Extremely good overall, with some quite bad games peppered in there lol.
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@Terion said:
The knight is indeed special! He is not only an anti loop killer he is also good at CAMPING! you can camp with his guards. I will totally play him to cut off survivors paths and camp hooked survs with the guards because why not? its effective.
i find it sad how survivors can so easyly predict his power because of visiuals, leaving a killer with no much choice to use the power any way diffrent than mentioned above. Also you cant just switch the guards how clown can switch his bottles, nullifying every tactical decision with them.
If a survivor starts the unhoook animation, even if that animation is cancelled, the guards disappear. With that in mind I don't think it's fair to say he's going to be especially good at camping, considering his guards can't contest or prevent unhooks.
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I actually have noticed that, from the killer perspective- not sure why the sudden uptick in survivors deciding to get their teammates killed, it's kind of a problem.
Granted, it's not too bad if the unhooker is still there to try and body block and take aggro, then it's more of a regular ballsy play instead of just a terrible decision.
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I'm certainly hoping for more legendary cosmetics to flesh out the roster. Personally speaking I'd hold out for Moira Burton as a legendary skin for Rebecca, and maybe Alex Wesker as a legendary skin for Albert.
Revelations 2 deserves some love and attention, just in general.
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@Little_Kitten said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3264512#Comment_3264512
The nurse can only know the identity of the exposed survivor with Flood of range, and its aura detection. And she has to be at 32 meters, moreover.
Regarding NOED, as I said, I agree that it is too powerful a perk on the nurse. I also think that NOED is a perk that could totally disappear from the game without being problematic, because sometimes it carries killers that get dominated during the whole game (not very logical in itself).
As for Haunted Ground, the malus can be avoided by hiding until it passes; that's exactly what happened to me, with my survival team and a nurse who had it. Luckily, nobody was chasing us, so we stayed hidden for the duration of the malus, and then we resumed the game as normal.
Obviously if it is triggered while someone is chasing, the latter can be accelerated, but the 3 others can still hide and resume the game.
As for Starstruck, the solution is quite simple: just decrease the TR of the nurse when she carries a survivor.
As for Devour Hope, it is indeed a very powerful skill on the nurse; but does it justify preventing her from using it? No, it doesn't.
Concerning the "future advantages" you're talking about, it's up to the developers to think about these advantages, before implementing them, and to think about the synergies they will have with this or that killer.
You don't change a killer AFTER a new perk gives him too much power, it's the perk that needs to be redesigned.
Let's say a new perk is created for the survivors:
"Last opportunity.
If you are in good health, and you lose a segment of health following a basic attack, you will run at 200% of your speed for 30s."
Now imagine players complaining and saying, "This perk is too powerful because survivors become absolutely unstoppable! We need to nerf the survivors!", we agree that we would reply, "No, we just need to nerf the perk, not the survivors."
It's the same thing with the nurse and the new benefits that are coming.
And regarding turning perks into addons, it's a bad idea, simply because there's no reason why a nurse can't use Sloopy Butcher if she feels like it, for example, or Knocked Out, if it makes her happy.
We're falling into the trap of discussing specific perks again, when the problem is the ability to use Exposed at all with a power that travels through walls.
But, to continue for a moment- Make Your Choice causes the affected survivor to scream, so unless there are duplicates of a specific survivor in the match (which, to be fair, does happen sometimes) the Nurse will know who it is that's affected. No comment on NOED, but Haunted Grounds is often paired with Retribution, and there's no waiting it out when your location is visible through walls.
Devour Hope is the one I most want to comment on, though, because of course it justifies the Nurse not being able to use it. The problem is that being able to instadown people through walls is too strong, so any perk that allows her to do that is a problem-- that's why I tried to steer away from discussing the specific perks, because the ability to do it at all presents balance problems.
It's also why the perks themselves aren't too strong. Unlike survivor perks, killer perks have a range of strengths depending on which killer uses them, and I don't think a single killer should have such a chokehold on an entire genre of perks when changing that single killer is a much more appropriate call. None of the perks we're discussing are overpowered or obnoxious on any other killer for the most part, it's just Nurse.
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Oh that's quite nice, I like that one. I play Legion a fair amount, I might actually use this one.
First one I've really gone out of my way to use since the Meg skin, actually.
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@Little_Kitten said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3264375#Comment_3264375
Make your choice can be avoided if the person who picked it up remains hidden and inconspicuous until the end of the malus; the only time this perk becomes really dangerous is when it is coupled with Flood of rage.
And even taking this combo into account, if the nurse is in the middle of a chase when Make Your Choice activates, there's not much point in stopping the chase altogether to go to the other end of the map.
"Not using basic attack perks is a tiny price to pay for the strongest and most oppressive power in the game."
I don't see why a nurse should be deprived of a whole bunch of perks, because of the fact that some other perks like NOED or Starstruck are a problem.
If I want to play Sloopy Butcher on my nurse, there's no reason why I can't.
Removing NOED, and preventing her from using Starstruck by reducing her TR when carrying a survivor, but leaving her K.O., Sloopy Butcher, etc. as well as the other perks that any killer can use makes much more sense to me.
Even if I were to agree that MYC is not a problem (which I don't agree, the Nurse knows who is Exposed and knows they have to be nearby), that still leaves NOED, Haunted Grounds, Devour Hope, and Starstruck.
None of these perks are problematic on other killers, just her, so none of them should be removed or nerfed, and reducing her terror radius doesn't fix the other three on that list. It also, again, does nothing to protect against future perks being busted on her.
For the handful of perks that she would want to use and that aren't OP on her like Sloppy, I still maintain giving her addons with those effects is a better call.
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@Starrseed said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3264375#Comment_3264375
That's not the way to go cause every killer should be able to use every perk. Sure some killer are better with perk x the other killer but they can still use them. Nurse with m2 blinks can't use any m1 perks cause she is to slow. And I think that will start a very unpleasant chain reaction cause it's bound to start why can killer x use perk x why can he use perk y bla bla bla you know what will happen. At that point we can just get rid of perks that's ctually do something. I can already see how the very next thing would be people wanting the same for hag after teleport
While I empathise with that position, there has to be a line. The Nurse shoudln't get to ignore all the fundamental rules of the game without giving something up, and even beyond that, the ability to instadown through walls is too much.
Either the Nurse needs to be completely overhauled from the ground up with a wholly new power, or she needs to have her ability to use Exposed perks taken away. She can't have any version of her current power concept and basic attacks without being in the same spot she is now; overwhelmingly the strongest killer and miserably oppressive.
As I mentioned a few posts ago, too, the Nurse has an addon that speeds her up. Make that her brown meme addon and this problem disappears, because the Nurse will have a way of getting M1 attacks.
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@Little_Kitten said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3264291#Comment_3264291
The only real problem is Starstruck and eventually NOED, the latter being a perk that all killers could honestly do without.
It is very easy to prevent the nurse from using Starstruck, by changing her TR when transporting a survivor. No need to touch her basic attack.
However, a modification could allow some killers to be up without affecting the nurse, and that, however, would be interesting.
Let's take the example of Jolt, who has a range of 32 meters.
Now let's imagine that we create, in addition to basic attacks and special attacks, a third type of attack (which already exist somewhere), teleported attacks, which would only be specific to post-blink attacks. Let's call this new type of attack "M3".
This would allow Jolt to be up for all the other killers, while keeping him as he is for the nurse; example :
- Jolt caused by an M1: 40m range
- Jolt caused by an M3 : 32m range
As for NOED, in order for the nurse not to be able to use it anymore, it would be enough to code the status "Exposed" as follows:
AS LONG AS [exposed status] occurs when there are 3+ unrepaired generators left on the map
THEN [exposed status] can be triggered by an M1 or an M3
IF [exposed status] occurs when there are 2- unrepaired generators left on the map
THEN [exposed status] can be triggered by an M1 only
I disagree that those two are the only problems, as Make Your Choice and Haunted Grounds (+ Retribution) are both very strong on Nurse, but even assuming that it is only Starstruck-- even after you fix that perk, you still have the problem that no Exposed perk can ever be very good or it'll be broken on Nurse.
Returning back to at least five of the Exposed perks (MYC, Haunted, Devour, Starstruck, kinda-sorta NOED) being a problem on top of future Exposed perks also being a concern, is it not just much simpler to make the Blink attacks Special Attacks? That neatly solves the current problem and future-proofs Nurse against problematic perk synergy in the future.
There is the mild potential issue of perk synergy, but realistically, only a handful of basic attack perks are any good and at least two of them have already been translated into standard addons for many killers - Sloppy Butcher and Franklin's Demise - so there's no reason Nurse can't get the same treatment there.
You don't have to overcomplicate this with a third type of attack, you can just tweak Nurse to be in line with every other killer. Not using basic attack perks is a tiny price to pay for the strongest and most oppressive power in the game.
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@Little_Kitten said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3264265#Comment_3264265
"Regarding Blinks for a second, I'm not sure why so many people respond to that by saying she'd have no way of using Basic Attack perks with that change, because... yeah? That's the goal?"
There is no problem with the nurse being able to use Sloopy Butcher, Gold K.O., etc. These are not perks that turn her into a weapon of mass destruction.
Only NOED becomes abused when in her hands (but generally speaking, it is NOED himself who should leave the game).
Regarding the "Exposed" status, there is no need to deprive the nurse from using the perks that include it.
Except for Starstruck (but the solution is simple: TR of 0 when carrying a survivor), the Exposed status does not really need to be removed from the nurse's possibilities.
There are 9 skills that work with the Exposed status.
If we remove NOED and Starstruck, which I agree with (but whose problem could be solved without changing the nurse's attack), there are 7 left.
Out of these 7, only Devour Hope is really dangerous, because it affects everyone, in addition to generating a totem that is sometimes very well hidden.
Dragon's Grip / Make your choice / Haunted Ground can be avoided by hiding until the malus disappears.
Hubris requires to knock out the nurse with a paddle, so it happens very rarely (or on baby nurses who don't know the maps).
Iron Maiden : besides the fact that, technically, once the first survivor is exposed, everyone can potentially have the information, and thus avoid going into a locker, this skill is only moderately effective with the nurse, as it is extremely situational, even if it can surprise survivors who are used to hiding in a locker to avoid the teleported attack and get out of the locker while the nurse is tired
Rancor: if the nurse has already killed the obsession during the game, the skill becomes useless (unless coupled with others allowing to change the obsession); and if the obsession is still alive, she had the whole game to understand that it is Rancor and therefore sneak in endgame.
Make your choice can become very dangerous if coupled with Floods of Rage, but this is only one of hundreds of combos.
Going through the list of perks makes it easy to lose sight of a very core concept- that being, it is too strong for a killer to be able to instadown you through walls. Yes, a few of the Exposed perks aren't very good in general and thus the Nurse has a hard time using them, but the ones that she can use become too strong by the very nature of how the Nurse's power functions.
You also have to consider that it's not just the Exposed perks we have now, it's any Exposed perks the developers want to add in the future. Current perk design is hamstrung by the fact that the Nurse might make any new perk completely busted; that's what happened with Starstruck, which is an only pretty okay perk on most of the roster and a nightmare on the Nurse.
As for the other basic attack perks that don't inflict Exposed, they are acceptable collateral damage. One thing that might be fair would be to retool the Nurse's addons to give her back some of those perk effects, where applicable- one for giving Sloppy Butcher's effects, one for giving Franklin's Demise's effects, and so on. Some of them aren't a problem, but enough are that the Nurse's Blinks should be special attacks.
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I definitely agree with the first two- making her attacks Special Attacks is a no-brainer that I'll touch on more in a second, and I think losing her tokens when she's stunned gives the survivor some more options for dealing with the most oppressive power in the game. I don't think pallets are really the most impactful stuns though- wiggle-off stuns, Head On, and Decisive Strike should also drain her tokens, because those are straight useless against her in the current state.
For the third, though, I don't think that's as good an idea. Since her Blinks should be Special Attacks anyway, reducing her TR isn't going to be necessary. If anything, she should probably have a bigger Terror Radius like Wesker does, so survivors have more advance warning. Though, I don't think that's necessary so much as one option that could be explored, I don't think her TR needs messing with personally.
Regarding Blinks for a second, I'm not sure why so many people respond to that by saying she'd have no way of using Basic Attack perks with that change, because... yeah? That's the goal? It's the whole idea, to stop her from using Exposed and other impactful perks. Still, it's not actually true- she currently has a gimmick addon that makes her 115% in exchange for disabling her Blinks after she lands a successful attack, so just retool that addon into a brown with slightly different parameters and it can allow for builds where Nurse uses Basic Attack perks.
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I'm inclined to let it hit live and see where it settles. I could definitely see it being particularly irritating when playing as the killers you mentioned, but at the same time, giving Fearmonger more value (+ blindness in general) isn't a terrible thing to happen. Sometimes perk diversity comes from counterpicks as much as it does buffs and nerfs.
Honestly, I'll probably use it myself. I think it's actually going to be more useful for Solo-Q than SWF.