jesterkind
jesterkind
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@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3304565#Comment_3304565
Bear in mind that pre-rework Dead Hard was still the meta perk in a meta where Lithe, Sprint Burst and Balanced Landing all consistently outperformed it in terms of gaining distance. Post-rework Dead Hard can easily outperform them all now, despite also being the most versatile Exhaustion perk, same as before. 150% for 3 seconds is chump change compared to a perk that can set the Killer's speed to 14% for that timeframe.
Most Killers still have to deal with 2.7 seconds of cooldown per hit, whether with their power or their M1. The ones who don't are pretty unusual for it, and are usually even more susceptible to getting Dead Harded as a side effect. Artist, Knight, Trickster, Pyramid Head, Corrupt Plague and Huntress. Incidentally, this means killers like Wesker can't get that much mileage out of STBFL, because it doesn't reduce the cooldown of their M2. So if you NEED a perk that not every Killer can use in order to counter Dead Hard, then Dead Hard also has the side effect of unjustly making certain Killers weaker by existing.
Plus, STBFL only really comes into play in the mid-late game. In that first chase where the Killer has no pressure and every second counts, Dead Hard hits a STBFL user as hard as anybody.
And here is, again, what makes me think you're just trolling. Dead Hard is META. When you get into a no-restrictions comp match, you're expecting to see 3-4 Dead Hards. By every metric available, it is the most useful and powerful perk for any Survivor who knows how to use it.
Yes, it was the meta perk then even though it underperformed in raw distance, but that has never been what Dead Hard is good at. It wasn't good at pure distance before, and it isn't good at pure distance now; before, it was used to lunge a short distance, to a pallet or window. Now, it's used to tank a hit and get less, but still decent, distance compared to using something like Lithe in exchange for it saving you from a deadzone, which the others can't do.
And yes, it's meta now too, or so it would seem; less so than before, but it does seem to have a higher pickrate than the others. That doesn't mean it's overpowered, though- hell, it doesn't even mean it's good, in the last stats we got to see Self-Care was in the top three survivor perks and that perk is often the weakest self heal perk available. Other perks that people run a lot are just "good", not "need to go" levels of overpowered. There are more things that go into pickrate than just strength- consistency, ease of use, how comfortable players have gotten using something that only got slightly weaker, things like that. If someone were to say DH is the most consistent Exhaustion perk and that's why it has such a high pickrate, I'd be inclined to agree; the risk that you'll not get to use it because the killer's good at baiting you is pretty easy to justify in the face of potentially saving yourself from deadzones. Does that make it OP? No, it doesn't even make it the most powerful tool available, it just makes it easier and more comfortable to use than the others.
I'm not trolling you just because we disagree, dude.
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@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3304547#Comment_3304547
Again, your math is failing to take into account the Killer's cooldown time for a hit, which slows their movement to a pitiful 14% for 2.7 seconds, according to the wiki.
You get caught in a dead zone and start running away. Sprint Burst gives you 150% speed for 3 seconds, while the Killer is chasing you at 115% speed.
You get caught in a dead zone and start running away. Dead Hard gives you 165% speed for 1.8 seconds, while the Killer is chasing you at 14% speed for 2.7 seconds before returning to normal speed.
The cases where other exhaustion perks will give you more distance are a rarity at best. Not only giving yourself a speed boost but absolutely crippling the Killer's speed (And for Lithe's case, making them unable to vault the god-window you just vaulted) is absolutely incredible in terms of gaining distance. There's a reason it can take so long for the Killer to get the second hit even if a surv isn't using any Exhaustion perks. And Dead Hard forces the Killer to get a third.
Sure, in a dead zone Dead Hard is more useful- that's why it's more versatile. But the maps aren't majority dead zone, and having a drop or vault to proc Balanced or Lithe is not exactly an uncommon thing-- it doesn't have to be a god window, it can be literally any window. I think you're dramatically overstating just how much the weapon-wipe slowdown makes a difference here, especially since it only applies to an M1 hit and a lot of killers at this point have other ways of damaging someone. Hell, maybe they've got STBFL! It's not as though that perk is horrendously uncommon at the moment.
It is not rare for the other Exhaustion perks to give more raw distance than Dead Hard, it's the norm. They're meant to give more raw distance, and they do- making distance isn't even the best way to use current Dead Hard, you're better off using it while close to a loop you're confident in.
It's more raw distance, and it's guaranteed distance, not distance that's dependent on having good timing and not being baited into using your perk too early. Dead Hard is good, it's a powerful perk, but it's no longer even objectively the most useful Exhaustion perk at this point, let alone OP.
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@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3304529#Comment_3304529
You seem to be switching constantly between "normal matches" (Whatever that means, given that near-optimal 4-man SWFs are hardly unheard-of in normal matches) and competitive play to defend Dead Hard. Pick one and stick with it. Either way though, saying that it's easy to counter or avoid is patently false if even comp-level Killers can't do it with any kind of consistency.
I'm beginning to think you're trolling at this point. No, you do not get more distance when you aren't close to the Killer. Dead Hard gives you more distance overall whether you got a head start on the Killer or not.
And saying that a successful use is far less damaging to the Killer is hilariously false. The best-case scenario for pre-rework Dead Hard was making the Killer miss a swing and reaching a pallet/window you otherwise wouldn't. The best-case scenario for post-rework Dead Hard is putting the Killer in cooldown for a hit (Rather than the shorter cooldown for a miss), getting a big speed boost for free, and making it to a whole nother, much stronger loop.
I've been talking about normal matches this whole time, you're the one bringing up tournaments and comp teams.
Okay, so, I think I've done a poor job explaining what I mean by the distance thing and that's on me, so I just went to the wiki to reconfirm a few numbers so I can explain it a little bit more in depth. When you get hit, the on-hit sprint burst effect lasts for 1.8 seconds as of patch 6.1.0, down from 2 seconds. This is the movement speed increase you get when you get hit during the Endurance window for Dead Hard; 1.8 seconds of distance, while the killer is slowed.
Lithe, by contrast, gives you 3 seconds of a sprint burst. If you activate Lithe from further away than basic attack distance, you get a longer speed boost that starts further away, so you get more distance from Lithe if you're a little bit away from the killer than you would from an activation of Dead Hard. The only difference that could make up that lost distance is that the killer moves normally, but bearing in mind you proc Lithe off windows, there's a good chance they'd have to walk around that anyway, so that basically doesn't affect anything.
I'm no maths whiz here, but we're operating on pretty basic number concepts here for the whole thread. This is what I mean when I say that Lithe gives you more distance than Dead Hard because you are further away from the killer when you activate it. Lithe here is more comparable to old Dead Hard, where you wouldn't bother using it to dodge a hit and would instead use it to get to a tile and reset the chase entirely, because you got a dash while further away from the killer than M1 range. Old DH was just stronger because it was on demand, which Lithe isn't- but new DH has no distance inherently, making Lithe the better pick specifically for making distance without trading anything other than Exhaustion.
Just to be clear, Lithe is an example, the other Exhaustion perks we've talked about work the same way so shuffle them in to applicable scenarios for the same overall point. This isn't to say Dead Hard is bad, far from it, the reason it's still comparably powerful to these is that it's more versatile, but that versatility comes at the cost of much less distance and having to trade in Deep Wounds for avoiding the hit.
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@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3304515#Comment_3304515
My source is Hens, and his various scrim matches against the likes of SupaAlf. Decisive Strike sucks if the Killer and Survivors play suboptimally, which they don't in comp. The meta has barely changed since 6.1.0..
Needing to be next to the Killer to activate an exhaustion perk is not a drawback, at least not when that perk is a third health state. The onus is on the Killer to get within striking distance of you, so if you're caught in a deadzone, sprinting away at normal speed and then hitting Dead Hard will still get you more distance than Sprint Burst.
I mean, scrim matches between the top players in the world are not going to be representative of how the meta actually exists in the regular game. In the majority of matches there's a lot more perk variety.
I didn't say it was a drawback. I said that because you aren't close to the killer, you get more distance. At no point have I argued, or will I argue, that Dead Hard isn't good- it is. It's one of the best Exhaustion perks even now. It's just not OP anymore because it can almost always be avoided and even a successful use is far less damaging to the killer than it used to be.
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@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3304507#Comment_3304507
No, the meta at the highest skill level is Off the Record, Decisive Strike, Adrenaline and Dead Hard, with a Deliverance and 1-2 Unbreakables thrown in for good measure. Which incidentally, is almost identical to the pre-6.1.0 meta. Really feeling that rework.
The Killer's movespeed is reduced to a crawl if they hit you in Dead Hard, it literally DOES give you more distance than any other Exhaustion perk. Find a friend, go test it yourself. Compare how long it takes to close the distance to a Survivor who took a hit with a Survivor who used Sprint Burst. The former wins out every time.
Decisive? Really? I don't know how you're ascertaining this info but if that's accurate that's extremely surprising, Decisive lowkey sucks now. I actually went against two people who tried using DS aggressively against me as Clown and they got absolutely zero value or distance, that's shocking if it's apparently the meta pick at highest skill level. I'd love to know where you're getting that info from to check if it's true.
Anyway, we went over that. The person using Lithe or Balanced doesn't need to be directly next to the killer, which gives them noticeably more distance than a random in-the-open Dead Hard.
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@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3304485#Comment_3304485
Tournaments ban duplicates because of perks like Dead Hard, and you know it.
See, the difference is that you can't really control when Sprint Burst, Lithe, or Balanced Landing activate. Starting to sprint, taking a window vault, or dropping down usually isn't optional when the opportunity presents itself. And thus, activating it at the most opportune moment, when the Killer's already invested a huge amount of time in the chase, you're injured and the Killer is closing in for the second hit, is almost impossible. And even then, because they don't buy you as much distance as Dead Hard, you're much less likely to actually get enough distance to lose the Killer.
Having to drop the chase is not unique to Dead Hard, but Dead Hard forces you to drop the chase far more consistently than any other perk. Getting caught on a wall or in a deadzone is not unique to Dead Hard, either, but with just how much distance it buys you by effectively stunning the Killer, you have a much better chance of getting out of a deadzone, making it to a strong loop.
...I don't know that at all. I'm pretty sure it's to reign in all the strong perks and to prevent stacking healing + gen speed increases, personally, that'd be my assumption. It is hardly just for Dead Hard.
And sure, but you can't control when the most opportune moment for Dead Hard is either. You can't use DH to teleport to a pallet to start doing that little mindgame, so sometimes you're forced to use it in the open or in a deadzone, where the speed boost barely takes you anywhere. Is that more distance than you'd get without Dead Hard? Obviously. Is it more distance than you'd get from the average use of Lithe, Sprint Burst, or Balanced Landing? No.
The bottom line is, the average use of Dead Hard outside of using it at a pallet is not OP. It's something that killer players can adapt to after they see it and that they can outright counter before the match even starts with their perk or killer selection, if they choose to.
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@th3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3304479#Comment_3304479
I break a maximum of 4 walls on that map maybe 5 while I’m in the area of one, no idea why he would say breaking all the walls except to help his bad faith argument
Not to mention that as Trapper specifically, I've found there are certain breakable walls you want to keep up, because it can funnel survivors into bear traps.
Definitely a poor decision, I think, to try and break even some before laying traps or starting chases.
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@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3304465#Comment_3304465
No, they won't. Such things, the range addons especially, are often banned in tournaments. It's common for Nurse herself to be banned in tournaments now, in fact. Nurse was banned from every round except the Quarter-Finals in the DBD community cup. And Nurse was in the game long before Starstruck and was still the undisputed best Killer in the game, still had the exact same gameplay and with the same problems, so your point on Exposed is pretty moot.
"This perk is so powerful that tournament rules ban Survivors from using more than one of it at a time, therefore it's not OP." Brilliant logic.
The difference is the number of hits the Killer has gotten. Good survivors will make you fight hard for every single one, so having to abandon the chase after scoring not one, but TWO hits is devastating to your momentum.
Regardless, this conversation is not about Nurse or about tournaments, it's about the balance of Dead Hard in regular matches. Though, brief aside, your attempt at scathing sarcasm is cute, but my point was about tournaments banning duplicates of the same perk in general and not them banning Dead Hard specifically.
Moving on, right, I do see the distinction you're trying to draw there. Still, that's only if you do have to abandon chase, and there's absolutely nothing preventing survivors from using other Exhaustion perks or just busted setups in general to make you abandon the chase after chasing an injured survivor for a while. If you get right up on someone you've already chased to injured and swing into Dead Hard, that's meaningfully the same as if that person used Lithe to rocket off to the other side of the map after you've chased them long enough to almost catch up. The time investment and harm to your momentum is the same... except for that in the first example, you at least get Deep Wounds. In the second, you get nothing.
Not to mention the numerous times you might swing at a Dead Hard - even if you swing into it - and the survivor gets caught on a wall or doesn't have anywhere to go because they're in a deadzone. You don't always have to drop chase, it's just that when you do, it's not unique to DH.
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Not to detract too much from Trapper being weak but I feel like breaking all the breakable walls on Dead Dawg is a gigantic waste of time no matter what killer you're playing.
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I've noticed this too, last night I had a game with insane rubberbanding but my internet was fine and even the in-game thing only occasionally showed a yellow indicator.
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There's a great list up there which already goes over a lot of the things that BHVR have changed based on community feedback, so I'll take the other arm of the possible answers to your post and point out that just because BHVR listen doesn't mean they're obligated to act on every passing whim the community starts shaking around like a dog with a chew toy.
They're constantly listening. There's a feedback section on this forum, there are pretty regular satisfaction surveys, there are fairly regular QnA streams... if you want to criticise BHVR for something, a far more fair criticism is that they've historically been slow to change things, not that they ignore the community.
Oh, and just to add a few because I remember them personally-- a lot of the big 6.1 midchapter, especially the perk grind elements, were changed from their initial PTB because of community feedback. Every single killer released this year also had popular community feedback changes implemented between PTB and live, with the only real exception being the Knight kind of? But to be fair they were clearly listening there too.
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@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3304429#Comment_3304429
Evidently you haven't seen comp-level Nurses in action. When you take a hit is for the Nurse to decide, not you, regardless of addons or perks.
I've seen Killers with thousands of hours wait out Dead Hard for over a minute. Try to bait it multiple times in quick succession, to no avail. Or Survivors can always just use it at pallets or use it against one of any number of Killers with a power that inflicts damage at a predictable time to force lose-lose situations for the Killer. And if you use Exposed, then Survivors just stay injured and get a second health state anyway.
Then where are all the Lithes, Sprint Bursts, and Balanced Landings in high MMR and tournaments? What advantage does Dead Hard give, if not the distance you gain by getting a free injured speed boost AND forcing the Killer into cooldown?
Why is breaking chase with DH different to breaking chase from a strong tile, or another Exhaustion perk? Because with Dead Hard, you traded a health state for 12 seconds of one survivor Mending. Dropping a chase is relatively safe after putting a survivor in Injured, because they need to find someone else to heal them, and then both spend 16 seconds healing. But after a Dead Hard? 12 seconds of Mending is a pittance of what the Survivor costed you if they forced you to drop the chance.
Yes, if you look at comp-level and tournaments, you will see a very different story. Also, won't those Nurses be using the things I talked about? The range/recharge addons, Exposed perks, and such? Because if so that doesn't disprove my point even slightly, if anything it bolsters my argument.
You also do see those other perks in tournaments, don't you? I admit to not really caring about the tournament scene, but I'm given to understand most of them have perk restrictions that ensure not every survivor can bring Dead Hard, and most of them are still going to want one of the other (still very strong) Exhaustion perks. Either way, tournaments are largely irrelevant when talking about general balance, and I think you're trying to respond to an argument I'm not making with that part about what value DH brings. Of course it brings that value, it's a strong perk- it's just not OP anymore.
I admit to not understanding your last paragraph there. In both scenarios, you're breaking chase after chasing an injured person for a while, so there's not much difference. And you're trading the health state for 12 seconds of Mending and however long it takes them to heal, if they want to be healthy again. If they don't, they only have two health states and it's basically normal.
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@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3304406#Comment_3304406
That's what "On paper" means. In theory, Nurse can be countered, but in practice, not really. And that's Dead Hard in a nutshell, as well. In theory, there's lots of stuff you can do to counter it, but in practice, most of it is either too wasteful to be of much practical use, or can be rendered null by a good enough Survivor.
Do Lithe, Sprint Burst, and Balanced Landing reduce the Killer's movespeed to almost nothing for 2.7 seconds? Because Dead Hard does. Simple math, dude.
You talk like someone who barely plays Killer. I've seen many instances of Killer mains dropping a chase, hoping to catch another survivor, and it almost costing them the game or actually costing them the game because they couldn't find the gen the rest of the survivors were working on, or in the time it takes them to cross the map, too many gens pop.
I think you missed my point- the counters that Nurse has in theory do bear out in practice, except for specific elements of her kit that people want nerfed. It's not that her counterplay is only theoretical, it's that it's undercut by specific things- whereas your argument here is that Dead Hard in its entirety is overpowered and its counterplay is only theoretical, when it's not. Waiting it out works, baiting it works, inflicting Deep Wound yourself works, using Exposed works, inflicting Exhaustion works, and so on. None of them fail in practice.
No, but you don't need to be directly on top of the killer to use those other Exhaustion perks, so it's more distance in practice.
That sucks for those killers but you shouldn't jump to Dead Hard being the problem there. if nothing else, the thing that actually caused them to start losing there is that they dropped chase, and Dead Hard is not the only reason they'd have to do that. If the same scenario bears out when they drop chase for other reasons, doesn't that hint that something else might be wrong, either with the game itself or with their gameplay? And if it doesn't... why not? Why is breaking chase from DH different to breaking chase from a strong tile, or another Exhaustion perk?
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@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3304392#Comment_3304392
Nurse can be outplayed too, on paper. Does that make her balanced or good for the game?
You don't play Killer much, do you? Dropping the chase usually costs you even more time, both from chasing a Survivor that's healthy and most likely on fresh hook, and from the time you need to waste looking for someone else to chase. And heaven help you if the Survivors are on comms and call you out so they can start running early.
And the sheer distance Dead Hard gives you is unparalleled among Exhaustion perks, as it not only gives you the free speed boost from being injured but forces the Killer into cooldown. Again, for the sheer amount of time it buys a Survivor, you'd need a LOT more mending time than it currently has.
I play killer far more than survivor, I would advise not going down that route.
Moving on, let's first address Nurse. She can be outplayed too, on paper, but... can she? Because the parts of her that I see most people wanting nerfed are the parts of her that don't have counterplay, or where counterplay is unfeasibly difficult or up to RNG. Her use of Exposed perks, for instance, or the elements that make gauging exactly how to counter her mid-trial harder like the range and recharge addons. Compared to the wide breadth of things that counter Dead Hard, from adjusting how you play to specific killer powers to anti-Exhaustion perks to any other source of Deep Wound, it's not exactly a great example to draw.
As for the distance it gives being unparalleled, no, it isn't. I honestly don't even have that much to say to that, it's blatantly not true- Lithe, Balanced Landing, and Sprint Burst all give at minimum comparable distance and none of them impart Deep Wounds or guarantee that the survivor using it is at least injured, wherever they end up. Overcome gives more distance, though at least that survivor will be injured, I suppose.
Finally... I dunno man, finding survivors isn't that hard, especially if you bring some tracking tools. There are definitely times dropping chase is a bad idea even if it's forced, but those aren't every chase and they're never enough to literally lose you the game right there.
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@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3304369#Comment_3304369
For the hundredth time, if countering Dead Hard is so easy, how do tournament-level Killers still get hit by it regularly? I mean, if countering Dead Hard was just a skill issue, usage of Dead Hard would fall off at high MMR and in tournaments, but it doesn't.
Deep Wounds and Exhaustion are a fraction of what a third health state costs the Killer. Extending the chase by another 30+ seconds can be devastating to a Killer's momentum. That's 30 more seconds where the rest of the Survivors are free to do objectives instead of worrying about unhooks. 12 seconds of one survivor Mending is nothing compared to that. Even an injury requires two survivors to spend 16 seconds healing. To balance out the amount of time you buy for the rest of your team, Mending from Dead Hard would need to take 60 seconds minimum, and that's being generous.
No idea. Maybe they decided that swinging into DH would save more time than waiting it out, or maybe they got flustered, or maybe the survivor using it had a really clutch timing. Skill goes into both sides of this, it's not that skilled killers will never swing into DH, it's that you can outplay it.
Sure, okay, if you think the chase would take another 30 seconds, drop it. Go chase someone else. The way that you would if a skilled looper got to a really good tile or used another Exhaustion perk to make a ton of distance on you. None of that is unique to Dead Hard, it's just how this game works.
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Dead Hard is fine. It's no longer "press E to win", it's no longer uncounterable and can always be avoided, and it has far more counters on top of waiting it out.
At most, the pallet thing could be adjusted, but it's by no means a foregone conclusion that it needs to be. I think what these conversations always seem to forget is that successfully using Dead Hard is no longer an instant chase win for the survivor, it's a phyrric victory where they trade postponing the down for Deep Wound and Exhaustion. Obviously that still breaks in their favour, it's a survivor perk, but the killer gets something if they need to drop the chase- which, it should be noted, is an if, not a guarantee.
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...Purple?
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@jajay119 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3302702#Comment_3302702
So... basically any survivor perk with a moderately decent effect is busted?
Nah, some of the perks on this list legitimately were busted. Pretty much anything with "old" prefacing it was legit pretty busted.
Definitely some odd choices here, though. OtR, WoO, new DH, and Adrenaline are pretty darn questionable on this list lol
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I'd rather see keys reworked/buffed to be more useful, especially without addons. Though, that comes from the same central concern that they're basically useless unless you're making a mad dash for unlocking the hatch.
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@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3303083#Comment_3303083
So the issue is presentation, then? Well then, by all means, add a message or an effect that makes it clear the Killer forfeited. Because aesthetically, that's the only difference between pressing "Concede" in Hearthstone and pressing "Leave Match" in Dead by Daylight.
You'd have to go significantly further than that to make it come across as a concede and not a ragequit. You'd have to make it take longer, so it's not a jarring change from gameplay to end screen, among a few other changes too.
Even after that you'd have to ask, what is the difference between this and a ragequit? The answer being, this one takes longer. It's still ending the match early because you don't feel like playing any longer, and it still robs all four other players of gameplay. That is, no matter what way you slice it, a ragequit, and not something that should be encouraged at all.
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@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3303076#Comment_3303076
Really? Because no one seemed to get upset when I said "I concede" at the last Magic: The Gathering tournament I went to. Nor does anyone seem to complain about it when their opponent presses the Concede button in Hearthstone or MTG Arena. They just take their win and move on, like a good sportsman should, instead of demanding that their opponent continue to helplessly squirm for another 5 minutes.
I think the core of the issue here is that you keep positioning a DC as a concede, like you're saying to your opponent in Magic or whatever "ah, you win, I concede", when it isn't.
The equivalent if you're playing a card game irl would be to stand up and walk away suddenly without a word, because that's what happens when you DC out of nowhere. Even if you were losing - especially if you were losing - you'd be seen as a bad sport and people would be rightly miffed that the game ended early.
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@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3302939#Comment_3302939
I already did. You have no teammates who need your help in order to win. If you have the option to concede, you don't have to play out a match that you're not enjoying anymore, and your opponents get a quick and easy win. Everybody's happy.
Everybody's happy, except the players that wanted to actually play the game.
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@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3302933#Comment_3302933
Good sportsmanship/bad sportsmanship according to whom? What gives you the right to arbitrate what is and isn't good sportsmanship, especially given how many other games would wholeheartedly disagree?
It's not according to one specific source, it's according to the line of logic that I just laid out, in the message that you just quoted.
Those other games aren't objectively correct, and neither is any game that does have a DC penalty. You do actually have to back up your arguments with reasoning.
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@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3302922#Comment_3302922
Why do I have to justify my position? Justify yours. If you had your way, people would have to be chained to the table at physical card game tournaments, and not released until their opponent has decided they're finished with them.
I have justified mine. It's good sportsmanship to play matches out, and bad sportsmanship to end them early outside of guaranteed loss scenarios. This is the case because players queue up to actually play the game, not to simply see the ending screen. Thus, DBD should have a DC penalty, to penalise poor sportsmanship and to promote actually, y'know, playing the game.
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@YOURFRIEND said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3302925#Comment_3302925
I think you are confusing me with stabby-widdershins. I haven't insulted anyone.
Both of your messages so far have been dripping with sarcasm and contempt, which I'd consider to be insulting, but I will acknowledge you haven't directly insulted anyone so far.
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@YOURFRIEND said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3302911#Comment_3302911
Their incentives are pathetic and irrelevant compared to snapping the knees off every killer and tacitly saying "Yes, you have to two hook everyone". It's simply not viable most matches.
Sometimes you get tunneled out. It's ok. If you're good enough you bought your team enough time to escape during the tunneling and that feels pretty good. The game isn't always going to be puppy kisses and rainbows. That is the nature of a PvP title. You cannot control your teammates. You cannot control your opponents. Games are not going to go in your favor.
Then criticise that, rather than harshly insulting people for daring to say "hey maybe this unfun and problematic aspect of the game could be fixed".
Tunnelling does not have to be in the game. If you don't think these incentives are good enough, what would be? How would you suggest tweaking the game so that everyone has a fair shot and isn't removed from the match as quickly as possible?
Hell, I don't even think tunnelling is that bad at the moment, but the act of being hard focused out of a match as quickly as possible is hardly a good thing to be possible for the sake of the game's overall health.
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@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3302915#Comment_3302915
You think DbD is the only game where comebacks can happen when you're behind? Many card games are turned around at the last minute by one perfect draw that gives the player exactly what they needed to win. But that's beating the odds, and the game still lets you concede at any time if you don't want to play it out.
I'm really not seeing how this translates to it being unfair to expect you to finish out a match. It's not like stalling a game out forever in your StarCraft analogy because the game isn't just lost and playing it out isn't going through the motions, and even if card games let you concede at any time... so what? I don't get how that's relevant to the central argument at all.
"Other games let you do it" is only compelling rhetoric if you can back it up with some kind of design reason, or other such argument. Why should DBD let you rob four other players of their chance to play the match out, when the match is not meaningfully over or decided?
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@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3302907#Comment_3302907
So if I've lost a StarCraft match, the game is effectively done, I have no army, not enough time/resources to make another, and all that's left is for me to wait for my opponent to destroy every last one of my buildings (The normal win condition), it's poor sportsmanship for me to say "I concede"?
The game's community has the opposite stance; if you say GG and quit, they call you a good sport, but if you try to prolong the match by hiding a building in the outskirts of the map, they'll usually call you a bad sport.
Same goes for most card games I've played; if you know you have nothing to stop your opponent with, it's often considered bad manners to try and prolong the match anyway. But saying "I concede"? Nobody bats an eye.
Sure, I'd buy that in StarCraft it's different, if there truly is literally no way for you to win. That's a perfectly good enough reason to have a dedicated surrender button, or even to just not have a penalty for outright quitting either, in that game. DBD, however, is not StarCraft, and a match is not actually meaningfully lost until the survivors have opened the exit gates and are standing inside one.
We've all had matches that feel like a slog halfway through but it's still good sportsmanship to play it out, because it isn't actually meaningfully lost yet. You can - and in a lot of cases will - turn it around in the endgame. The match is not over, so you leaving isn't functionally the same as letting the match play out.
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@Stabby_Widdershins said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3302884#Comment_3302884
And that's the excuse to force one side to play worse? Because their opponent are people?
Guess what? The Killer is a person, too! And it's less fun for us when we have no say in who we can hook, and if we'd lose because a mechanic said 'No, you already hooked this injured person. Go spend another 4 minutes finding, chasing, hitting, chasing, hitting, and hooking someone fresh. Oh, they popped 3 gens and 99% the exit gates. Sucks to be you, Killer.'
It's a PvP game; if your opponent trying to win ruins your fun; don't play PvP games. What is with people thinking 'My fun is more important than my opponent trying to have fun & win'?
It doesn't have to be "playing worse", that's why OP laid out incentives and rewards for killers changing targets. Whether you think they'd be enough or not, the intent is very clearly to make tunnelling not the most effective way of playing-- and by extension, making spreading your pressure across multiple targets not "playing worse".
For the record, I agree with you about generator speeds needing to be included in this conversation, but it's an entirely false equivalence to reduce things down to "the survivor objective" and "the killer objective" when the entire point is that killers tunnelling directly affects human players and survivors focusing generators directly affects inanimate objects. You are correct that killers are players too, which is why they'd need incentives and rewards to ensure that they aren't just being forced to play less efficiently (as OP already acknowledged and attempted to address), but you don't get to pick and choose. Just as much as you can't say "sucks to be you, killer", it very much goes the other way; you cannot say "sucks to be you, survivor" either.
Everyone's fun matters, and it's a silly framing to insist that it's a competition where one side's fun must necessarily involve making the other side less fun.
Also, just to head it off, I play killer. Not a survivor main.
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@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3302893#Comment_3302893
Says who? My understanding of why there is a leaver penalty in team games is because you have teammates who need your help in order to win. That's usually what pops up in the warnings when you press the "Leave match" button. But again, there are no teammates to speak of when you're playing Killer.
It's no skin off the survivors' back if they get 4 escapes for free. There is no rational basis to prolong the match if the Killer isn't having fun anymore.
No rationale for prolonging the match... except for that you queued up to play a match, which means it's a fair expectation that you finish it. The survivors may get four escapes for free (except not really, I don't think they count as escapes for challenges and such), but they didn't queue up just to see the escape screen, they queued up to play a match of DBD.
You shouldn't get to just ruin the match for everyone solely because you're not having fun anymore. It's basic good sportsmanship, not an unfair burden.
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@Monlyth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3302881#Comment_3302881
Let's see, off the top of my head: StarCraft, Hearthstone, Legends of Runeterra, Battletech, Battlefleet Gothic Armada, Dawn of War, Battlesector, World of Warcraft (Dueling), Darkest Dungeon (Butcher's Circus), XCOM (Multiplayer)... and probably many, many others.
Like I said, DbD is highly unusual for penalizing you for conceding. If one player in a 1v1 sees no point in continuing the match, they can usually give up at any time. The game counts it as a loss, and everyone moves on. And the player's reasons for conceding, as far as the game is concerned, are none of your business.
...All the ones I recognise there are 1v1, though?
Clearly it's different to concede to one person as opposed to ending the match for four people. I hadn't even considered one on one games because... that's clearly a different beast entirely, different rules and expectations apply.
Even so, again, see above; why is it an unfair expectation for you to actually play out the match you queued up for?
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@Stabby_Widdershins said:
Gen speeds go too fast to force Killers to spread the hooks around.
Until that is addressed; there should be no punishments for Killers or safety nets for Survivors that prevent 'tunneling'.
Why is it absolutely no one is able to think 'If Survivors can focus on their objective (gens) so can Killers (kills)'? Oh, right; because Survivors are convinced Killers exist for their entertainment, and that Survivors are owned an arbitrary amount of match time and 'fun'.
Also: Survivors don't deserve immunity, invincibility, and 10000000% stealth just because they think they deserve it.
Because the survivor objective is an inanimate object and the killer objective is other human players whose experience in the game matters.
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I can't think of any game personally where you don't have any teammates and where you leaving ends the game immediately for everyone, that doesn't have some kind of penalty for leaving.
Most of the time if there isn't a penalty, it's like, a battle royale, where you leaving doesn't really affect any specific other player. In DBD, if the killer leaves, the match ends and it affects everyone.
In general, though, why is it considered such an extreme burden to finish playing a match you queued up for?
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These wouldn't be terrible changes, I think, though there is the problem of survivors trying to bodyblock the killer after their safety net elapses because they know forcing a tunnelling scenario will harm the killer. Then again, they could always just get hit and then be ignored, or be slugged if they want to be entirely obnoxious...
The most important part of this by far is survivors losing collision during their post-unhook safety net, though. These changes cannot be implemented without that or it'd be disastrous.
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@Sava18 said:
The dbd definition of rework is so pitiful. I don't think the door and window swap on the main building can be considered 1/10 a rework, the legion and ghost face buffs were definitely not reworks. Doctor is probably the only real rework ever.
Freddy would be the only real rework, but I'd say Doctor and Leatherface are both acceptable to refer to as reworks too.
I think things like the Haddonfield and RPD reworks count, too, they ended up pretty significantly different.
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@versacefeng said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3302394#Comment_3302394
Eyrie is not medium sized.
Yeah it is? It's the same size as Ormond, both significantly smaller than the larger sized maps like Mother's Dwelling.
Obviously there's the question of if those maps are also too big, but people act as though Eyrie is comparatively very big when it's not really.
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@johnlikesguns2 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3302298#Comment_3302298
Eyrie is a way too big map, which already is a problem. Along with that, there's 2 gyms behind the main building, and 2 gyms in the middle of the map. Along with the shack at the corner, with that there's also some filler pallets which makes the map very hard for the killer.
Eyrie is about medium sized, it isn't comparatively that big at all. I'm not sure why so many people think that it is...
I dunno, man. They're just gyms, you can outplay those by mindgaming and at least they require survivors to stay in them to use the pallet, harder to drop-and-run the way connected tiles normally work. I truly do not think Eyrie deserves to be discussed in the same breath as the real monsters of survivor-sided map design.
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@TicTac said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3302298#Comment_3302298
Eyrie is bad, because it's really to loop. Most tiles are safe against most killer, close to each other and you can waste time running around some structures.
The main building is also not bad and easy reachable. And if you are too far from the main building, shack is near.
Are they? Most of them seem like pretty standard window-and-pallet tiles that you can mindgame if you know what you're doing. There are some pretty good tiles near the centre, but the ones near the edges aren't that bad at all. They can be connected a lot of the time, but idk, I really feel like Eyrie has an overinflated reputation when it's really not that bad.
It's certainly nothing compared to maps like Mother's Dwelling and Fractured Cowshed.
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I'm still not entirely sure why people think Eyrie of Crows is so bad. It's definitely not killer sided, but it doesn't feel anywhere near as bad as maps like Mother's Dwelling, Fractured Cowshed, or even honestly The Game to me.
Although, it does depend on the killer, because it is really bad for Trapper, and for stealth killers. For the majority though it seems... fine? Relatively neutral, as far as DBD maps go.
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Not on the killer side (unless you go way back to like, year one and two, which I'm less knowledgeable about), but there have been survivor perks even more busted than current Eruption.
That doesn't detract from Eruption being overtuned, though. It does need addressing. Not "nerfed into the ground", but rather retooled to be at an acceptable strength with different effects, at least imo. The Incapacitated needs to go, but it also needs to be replaced with something, or there won't be any reason to run the perk.
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@rinnai said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3301082#Comment_3301082
nah the game is far from balanced. They have only given the killer side of the player base any real improvements.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3301170#Comment_3301170
all killer buffs on that list.
Apart from these two absolute banger useless comments there's no icon or commination for survivors and nothing additional in the game to make it challenging. The devs wanted 60+% win rate for killers and I suspect its getting closer to 70% 4K's. Theres nothing new added to the game in the sense that it gives another objective or second chance. We had 4-5m games at the mid part of the year. Good luck being optimistic devs are very deaf.
Those are not all killer buffs, though?
The better wiggle mechanic is a survivor mechanic exclusively, and the new Haddonfield, the huge summer perk pass, bloodweb grind reduction, and RPD rework changes benefit both survivor and killer equally. Not to mention the thing that weren't on that list, like the basekit BT and several good new perks that released this year for the survivor side.
I also didn't say the game was perfectly balanced, I said it's in a good spot and it's only been improving. Both of those things can be true with imbalances still present.
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The fact that the game's in a pretty good spot and has only been getting better recently would be a pretty solid reason to be optimistic, I'd think.
I'd struggle to even come up with reasons to be pessimistic. We've had a few sloppy chapter releases, but that's nothing new. A few annoying business decisions too, that's more of a legitimate issue. Still, hardly outweighs all the good that's come recently.
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@CodeDB said:
Hit 1 survivor within 5 seconds after YOU emerge from a snowman, not the survivor
Seconding, it's this. I just did this challenge myself earlier, it's definitely meant to be you in the snowman.
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Oh, let's go! I've been waiting for more info on this idea for aaaages, I'm so glad it's in a tease-worthy state now.
It looks good, too!
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If you're having trouble finding pallets, Windows Of Opportunity can absolutely help.
As for what determines how many pallets spawn, I'm not entirely sure- I believe there's a certain number that are supposed to spawn, or at least that a certain number of loops that contain pallets are guaranteed to spawn. You might just be getting unlucky with deadzones in the past few games, it happens.
You've also got some tools available in the perks department to make pallets less necessary. Exhaustion perks like Overcome and Balanced Landing give you some pretty decent distance without needing a pallet, and Dead Hard can be used to extend a chase by tanking a hit if you're good at timing it. This is a pretty good time to be playing survivor, overall, there are a lot of good tools at your disposal.
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@Sally_S_gay_son said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3294239#Comment_3294239
yeah my mistake I did completely forget about hyperfocus, however outside of that I do think none of the other perks between it and Coh are worth using unless you are dedicating an entire build that may or may not work, we can talk about how useful or not they are but I really rately see someone using anything but older perks with maybe some new perk thrown in, it's really not consitent as it is on the killer end where you most of the time see at least 1-2 perks that are recent.
Like maybe I am wrong but I am just basing this on my experience, I know we have users here who have spreadsheets about their matches and if anyone can jump in to post some stats it would be useful.
I really want to run some new perks but I also do not want to feel like I am handicaping myself (esp since I play solo) when not running kindred or stuff like that
Well, you're definitely at a handicap if you don't bring Kindred specifically, but that's a whole other discussion.
In terms of the majority of loadouts, I do agree that fewer new survivor perks make it into the meta, but I disagree that it's because those perks are bad, necessarily. Pretty much every character released recently on the survivor side has at least one genuinely good perk that is worth running, but it's hard to compete with a lot of the older perks. Take Overcome- that's a really solid perk, in my opinion one of the top three strongest Exhaustion perks... but even if you take Dead Hard out of the equation, it's kind of hard to beat the simplicity and strength of something like Lithe or Sprint Burst. Nobody actually has much of a reason to try something new there, even if there are comparably strong new options.
While there are definitely bad perk designs on both sides still being released - looking directly at Dark Theory and Septic Touch here - both sides are also still being given cool and effective new tools to try. I really can't tell you exactly why the killer side seems more willing to use their new perks more frequently- it might have to do with the ease of use for new killer perks, maybe? Or possibly more to do with less generally solid older perks on the killer side, I'd have to really go through each one in turn to say with any certainty. I just don't think it's because new survivor perks are bad, or even underwhelming. There's good stuff in there.
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I'm not so sure this argument works anymore, considering the two most recent releases gave us Fogwise and Hyperfocus, two incredibly good perks that may even be overtuned. In terms of just "above average", there's also Wiretap and Parental Guidance, and if we go back a little further we get Overcome, which is one of the best Exhaustion perks.
Killer perks have been a little more consistently useful, I'll grant you that - though Wesker's were underwhelming - but I don't think the divide is that stark. If it were, though, there'd still be a good reason- if the last perk that you think affected the meta was release Circle of Healing, then clearly they can't add meta-changing perks, because they'd be completely busted.
Survivors are getting good new perks to play around with, though. Slightly fewer of them than killers, sure, but even killers aren't getting 100% bangers. For every Dissolution, there's also a Septic Touch, for example.
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Current Dead Hard is totally fine. Even at its most useful, the pallet exchange you detail up there, the killer is getting something out of the scenario no matter what happens, even if that thing isn't a down. Everywhere else, it's easy enough to bait and play around that actually swinging into a DH at this point makes me go "damn, respect" instead of making me mad.
Speaking of, there are a lot of ways to bait. Flicking your camera upwards seems to work consistently for some reason, I'm not totally sure what that looks like from the survivor side but it must be similar to the start of a weapon swing because it definitely works a pretty reasonable amount of the time.
A lot of killers have ways to bait with their power, too. Pretty much any "charge-up" type power can be used to bait.
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@YOURFRIEND said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3293671#Comment_3293671
Oh, it's you. You absolutely have to change your avatar back.
I only saw it toward the end of the event, after people figured out that snowmen were actually quite useful to buy time. It's hardly theory when it was reality.
Aw, why? I like Jill.
Even towards the end, people would struggle to make use of a mechanic that didn't really provide meaningful value. The most use anyone got out of it was if a snowman spawned directly next to a window or pallet, and even then, because of the time investment they'd almost certainly have been able to reach that loop anyway if they'd just kept running.
Though again, just so we're all on the same page: This year's version is better. The snowmen weren't good at taking hits so removing that entirely to push people towards their intended uses is a smart move, and eliminates the handful of edge cases where there actually was a balance problem, like Twins and Ghostface. For that reason, I'd even support OP's suggestion of an Iron Will effect for next year!
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@YOURFRIEND said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3293649#Comment_3293649
You're really stretching here to pretend like snowmen weren't an additional health state. They absolutely were. If you think the weapon wiping animation isn't enough to get to a fresh loop after connecting with a snowman you're delusional.
All I can say is that some people here have a very different memory of the old event than I do. I played killer, almost exclusively at that point, and I extremely rarely saw a snowman even be useful for survivors, let alone enough value to warrant these kinds of comments.
Even in theory, snowmen weren't unbalanced without ignoring key aspects of them.