jesterkind
jesterkind
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Don't forget that Incapacitated is how Victor works, and was introduced with him. In fact, I'm pretty sure it's just Victor, Eruption, and a Huntress addon that applies the status effect to begin with, right? Maybe I'm missing one, but nobody's complaining about Victor preventing you from performing actions, nor are they complaining about that Huntress addon; they're complaining about Eruption, because that perk is overtuned.
Nerfing Incapacitated like this would heavily punish Twins (because holding Victor for as long as possible wouldn't even stop you working on generators), and would still result in Eruption being kind of overtuned and too easily circumvented by players on comms. The solution is to remove Incapacitated from Eruption entirely, not to change the status effect itself.
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Not to detract from the annoyance of the experience, but I don't think OTR is meant to dissuade tunnelling as much as it's meant to give you, the tunnelled survivor, more agency to do something about it. Take the hit, and either get to a loop or break line of sight so you can use the extra stealth, that's the idea.
Nothing's going to stop killers who are that hell-bent on tunnelling you, so you have my condolences- I can count on the fingers of one hand how many times I've seen a killer that goes that far out of their way to tunnel recently, so seriously, sounds like you're having a statistically improbable time of it over there. Hope you get some better luck in your matches soon.
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My absolute pipe dream would be for BHVR to make legendary cosmetics actually change the way the power looks, so we can get Donna and Angie as a legendary skin for the Twins. Even just the thought of Angie scampering around on all fours snarling and gnashing brings me so much joy...
As for Lady D, I'd sooner have her as a skin for the Knight, if we're allowing the skin to change how the power looks. The three Guards replaced with the three daughters. Artist could totally work too, though.
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@StarLost said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3328405#Comment_3328405
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3328433#Comment_3328433
Because it's huge. Basically Spinechill baseline. Even as someone with solid hearing, it's substantially more accurate information and can be used to triangulate the killer's location at pretty much all times.
...But so can the terror radius? That's the entire purpose, it gets more intense the closer the killer gets to you. It's literally the exact same information as the current terror radius that is being proposed, just visual instead of audio-- which brings those with poor hearing up to speed, but doesn't offer anything beyond convenience to those who could already get that information from the current source.
Current Spine Chill only works like that because it covers for losing basekit information if you can't hear very well, the visual TR indicator isn't actually a bonus.
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In what way is the visual terror radius a significant buff? It's the exact same information that is covered by the terror radius itself, it literally only brings those with hearing issues up to standard.
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I feel like the fact that a Hunt is immediately cancelled if the survivor in question starts an unhook action covers the Knight's anti-camp requirement better than yet another awkward, annoying, finnicky restriction on where you can use your power, surely?
Sending out a patrol towards a hook isn't useless, it gives you some information and so it makes sense a Knight would want to do it, but it's not actually/meaningfully camping because it can't prevent unhooks or even get a health state/BT proc off unless the guard arrives after the survivor's already unhooked-- in which case, the unhooked survivor has Haste and Endurance so they're not in any danger, and the Knight's far enough away that the unhooker isn't in any danger either considering how easy it is to juke a guard.
I dunno, I don't think this is necessary. Knight already has anti-camp built in that does the job pretty well.
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Gotta say, I am surprised to see someone say it feels the exact same in terms of size. I only played it on the PTB so maybe it got changed for live, but it felt way smaller.
Also, brightness and lack of grass were never actually problems for Eyrie, they were just annoying for a handful of killers. The problem with the map was really just how easy it was to chain together strong tiles, and that did seem different on the PTB. With the added bonus that generators were easier to patrol thrown on there for good measure, which was nice.
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@Marik1987 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3323517#Comment_3323517
"The only overpowered Perk". Dude this perk is a joke. If the killer dont get a down AND u sit at your gen, this thing does 10% Regression, thats it.
You should know when a gen was kicked and so to be a little bit careful. If u want an OP-Perk: DEADHARD!!!
I mean, if the killer doesn't get a down, this perk does nothing, clearly that doesn't matter all that much.
Getting a down isn't that hard, and if someone is sitting at the gen when that down happens, it brings a lot of slowdown to the table. I really think you're underestimating Eruption if you think it's a joke, seriously.
As for Dead Hard, bit of a false equivalence, and one perk being OP (supposedly) wouldn't mean another perk can't also be OP.
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@Warlord1981NL said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3324318#Comment_3324318
None of the above is about Borrowed Time.
Ok, imagine a scenario where one survivor is hooked and another is going in for rescue. You as the killer arrive there while the unhook happens. Nothing too wild to imagine, I assume. Chase starts with the unhook survivor body blocking for the unhooking survivor. Stand (essentially) still for 2.7 seconds while the unhook survivor sprints past the unhooking survivor. You catch up after about 30 seconds later (thats how long that takes from a 2.7 second delay) when you are essentially in the exact same state of progress. All for free, wasting 45 to 55 seconds of time for free.
Even in just a straight line with nowhere to vault or obstruct or anything like that, that 2.7 seconds means a survivor will have covered 10.8m from just that single swing bouncing. Killers run 10 to 15 percent faster than survivors. So 0.4 or 0.6m/s. That means that to get back into striking range takes 27 seconds and even if the killer runs at 0.6m/s faster then that is still 18 seconds that it takes to get back into striking range.
Now when you catch back up after that time, then now the other survivor is behind because the first one will have sprinted past due to the sprint survivors get when struck. Borrowed Time affects both of them and since it lasts for 40 seconds the Endurance effect is still active so the other survivor gets a free hit too.
All that from Borrowed Time. And you don't even have to do anything for it, it's all automatic, zero skill involved. Granted, it's only once a match but it is only once a match per survivor. That means that, as killer, you'll still have to deal with this nonsense up to 4x per match. Then at that point they still have their Dead Hards, Sprint Bursts, etc etc etc.
This single perk just automatically forces you to go look for the other survivors. That is not playing a game and making decisions. That is a flat out: this is your only option. But it is something you as killer are only informed of once you have actually swung, chased down and then swung again. If you then decide to go looking for the others, which also takes significant amounts of time especially on large maps, then you are also wasting time as theres plenty of places they could be. Time you, as killer, don't have. You want to talk delays. Let's discuss this first then because the above does not take enviromental factors into account like getting pallets flung at your face, vaulting, losing sight, getting fire crackers/flashbanged/flashlighted and all the rest.
Especially in combination they are just flat out broken and waste far too much time, especially with the current gen rushing meta. The above doesn't even take the killer's acceleration and the survivor's speed burst from getting hit into account.
"it's an overtuned effect that brings far more slowdown than any other comparable perk." Are you saying that every perk needs to be on the pethatic level that the average killer perk is at?
"That's kind of a problem, players shouldn't have their perks nearly nullified by the whims of whether their opponents happened to queue up with friends or be hit way harder just because they happened not to queue up with friends." No idea what you are on about here, Eruption doesn't do anything based on SWF or not.
A few things jumped out at me here- first, BT doesn't affect both survivors, it only affects the survivor that got unhooked. Second, your scenario assumes that you're right there when the unhook happens, which isn't the case all the time. Third... I really don't see how BT is the problem here when everything you're describing works using just the basekit Endurance survivors get anyway?
But, to the bodyblocking point, it's not quite as damaging as you're making out. Bodyblocking like that is safe for survivors to do in fewer scenarios than they think; multiple times I've been able to just smack the unhooked survivor and then down them again a few seconds later, which even if it takes the time you laid out, is far more damaging to the team than that hook being given to the unhooker or being denied entirely by actually using BT to run away and get to safety. Again, though, I need to stress- what makes BT the problem when survivors get its effects for free? People don't bodyblock every game and it doesn't automatically win the match for them when they do, either don't tunnel or just target the guy bodyblocking, both work out for you most of the time.
As for your final two points; it's obviously false framing to suggest every other killer perk is pathetic. There are plenty of decent ones, the bar for good isn't Eruption. As for SWF, yes it does affect Eruption; those on comms can call out when they're about to go down and deny the Incapacitated with reasonable consistency. Against SWF, Eruption is dramatically less useful, making it effectively a solo queue crusher- something that really isn't good design, let alone necessary.
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@Warlord1981NL said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3324077#Comment_3324077
It is not guaranteed. It is all but guaranteed. This because killers telegraph their strikes. It takes quite a long while from the click to start the hit. It doesn't take much practice to get it down pat. And if you are acting in good faith why are you bringing up situations where DH doesn't apply. I don't bring up situations where Eruption doesn't apply.
"Heck, if BT isn't in the match" I have never seen that. And I mean that in the literal sense. Every single match, no exceptions, I play multiple survivors bring it.
But you seem to forget that unlike with Dead Hard where there is only one killer to deal with and as such wastes 2.7 seconds every single time it occurs, Eruption doesn't disable the entire survivor team. In the vast majority of cases if it hits then it'll hit one survivor, not the other 3 that will still be doing whatever it is that they are doing. If you are exceedingly lucky as a killer it'll hit 2 survivors but that also means that the other half of the team is still out there doing their thing, buying you as the killer a little bit of time. Personally, I have only had it happen once, and granted: a fond memory it is, where my Eruption hit 2 survivors. 3 simply doesn't occur.
Now I get what you are saying concerning consistency but this is a risk/reward situation where the risk of having those if's gives a good strong effect when it does hit. So I remain of the opinion that it is balanced. Big risk of being a dud with a mere 10% regression, big reward in the few cases where it does hit.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3323910#Comment_3323910
I didn't say 5 gens in 8 minutes. I said 1 gen in 8 minutes. You said the match lasted 40 minutes. 40 minutes divided by 5 generators equals 8 minutes per generator. That is one hell of a lot of time.
First of all, you shouldn't be 3-manning a generator ever but secondly, that simply doesn't happen. I invite all killers on this forum that have ever used Eruption to list the number of games they have played with it and list the number of times Eruption hit 3 survivors. Because you'll be seeing a lot of 0 times happened ever. Like I said earlier, I had one single occurance where it hit 2 and I have been using Eruption forever.
In the last paragraph you make several mistakes. Besides the fact that hitting 3 survivors is straight up fantasy and the fact that the disable lasts 25 seconds, not 40, that doesn't mean you get a cumulative gameslow down, the slow down is still only 25 seconds and frankly not even that as then you simply do something else like getting yourself in position to rescue the hooked survivor, find a different gen to work on, etc. By the time you are done repossitioning the disable effect will be over. You are exaggerating the effects of Eruption in the extreme. You make it sound like all you can do is stand next to the gen. This is a bad idea in and of itself because if the explosion hits, the killer will see you are there and if you are still around then the killer will be on you. Now I understand how that game lasted 40 minutes if that is how you played. This is just bad gameplay on your behalf and has nothing to do with Eruption.
Also, complaining about 3-gens is about as useful as complain about shack loop. Yes, it is strong but not unbeatable. You'll have to find a way to make it work. Don't blame the killer for doing his job. I don't blame survivors for making use of loops despite of how annoying, and frankly lame, it is.
You seem like you're mixing up Dead Hard and Borrowed Time a few times in this post, so I'm genuinely not too sure if I can follow what you're trying to say, sorry. I think you're talking about Dead Hard with the telegraphed hits thing, but before you said it was Borrowed Time that provided near guaranteed value because people bodyblocking with it caused every hook to require three hits?
I'm definitely assuming some wires got crossed here, so clearing that up would be useful-- forget about Dead Hard entirely for a second, what makes Borrowed Time overpowered? That should make it a little simpler.
Regarding your last point- it's kind of relevant that it's not just a good strong effect, it's an overtuned effect that brings far more slowdown than any other comparable perk. Additionally, the risk/reward is completely outside of your control- and the control of solo queue players who end up facing it. That's kind of a problem, players shouldn't have their perks nearly nullified by the whims of whether their opponents happened to queue up with friends or be hit way harder just because they happened not to queue up with friends.
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I strongly disagree that BFFs is badly designed because it's an endgame addon. Endgame addons in general are an interesting thing not many killers actually have, and the Legion arguably benefit from it the most because this is the point in the game where they're at the biggest disadvantage.
I do think it's not as impactful as it could be, but if it were to be buffed the endgame aspect should be preserved, as that's the most interesting element.
(Also, for Never Sleep Pills, why is promoting hit-and-run considered a downside? Isn't that the exact kind of gameplay people want...?)
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It's mostly gonna boil down to a combination of BHVR being a much smaller company than something like Epic, and them also being one of the vanishingly few companies not to overwork their employees to death with abusive 'crunch' cycles (that I know of, anyway).
They probably could be faster in certain areas, but I personally hesitate to say that too strongly without knowing the specifics. If fixing these things faster requires something even approaching crunch, then that is too high of a price to be acceptable. I don't know if it would, but my not knowing that is why I'm more reserved in my criticisms there.
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Regarding the question of if Wraith should be hiding from flashlights, I would say the answer is a pretty resounding "yes". He's a stealth killer, he's meant to be finding line of sight blockers and odd angles to come at survivors from so they don't know exactly where he is and can't react as early. The mechanic of lightburn achieves this, since it prompts Wraith players not to just run headlong at survivors and try to brute force it with the movement speed increase they get while cloaked. It's also good for newer players, since it gives one of the killers they'll be seeing most obvious counterplay-- which in turn prompts new Wraith players to play smarter.
Also, they didn't change his lunge range, you just have to start the lunge sooner.
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I assure you I'm engaging in good faith here, but I have to ask- how is the delay from BT guaranteed? If someone's unhooked while you're on another side of the map, BT does nothing. If someone's unhooked while you're nearby but that survivor chooses to run away instead of bodyblock, BT does nothing. Heck, if BT isn't even in the match but survivors try to use their basekit Endurance to bodyblock, it's the same situation as your description up there, surely?
I also agree that Eruption has multiple "ifs" attached, but that's part of the problem. It should be more consistent than that, and, when those "ifs" line up the effect is too strong. Remember that it's effectively more than 25 seconds delay because it takes a chunk off the generator and the generator starts regressing, so after that 25 seconds has passed the survivor has to catch back up to where they were again.
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@Warlord1981NL said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3323649#Comment_3323649
Ok, BT by itself on 1 player is not overpowered. The problem arrises when there are multiples in the match. Taking down a survivor takes an extra hit. This might not sound like a whole lot but it in fact is as you, as the killer, have to do it for 3 hooks that take 3 hits each now instead of 2 times 4 survivors. When you hit you do whatever it is in the swing-cooldown period which lasts 2.7 seconds.
This mean that if everything goes to plan and I strike perfectly in that I never miss then we are talking:
2.7 x 3 x 3 x 4 = 97.2 seconds standing around doing f all, instead of
2.7 x 3 x 2 x 4 = 64.8 seconds...
This assumes perfection from both sides, but that doesn't matter because as survivors will sometimes have bad timing with their DH, so will the killer with his strikes.
And you lot complain about Eruption miracling a hit every now and again. This doesn't disable your entire team where Dead Hard literally causes this effect on all of the killer as it provides, as you can see, provides a much greater delay. At will and for free, no if's involved. It's cummulative effect is insane. So if DH isn't overpowered then neither is Eruption. Can't have it both ways.
Borrowed Time is overpowered because of the body blocking that it enables and thereby wasting the even more hit recovery time on the killer. Body blocking is a stupid concept that shouldn't be in this game in the first place but BHVR doesn't seem to think it is absurd for people to jump in front of chainsaws, knives, swords, maces and whatnot. That 10 seconds it grants is bogus. Taking a hit for someone else should be at great peril, especially when the exit gates are open this is particularly annoying with the sprint survivors get from being hit which generally results in: invulnerable by BT... invulnerable by DH... hit... sprint past someone else who then body blocks... its a bunch of bullshit. Body blocking should carry WAY more risk than it currently does... Absolutely ridiculous.
That sounds a lot less like BT being overpowered, and more like bodyblocking (via any means, not just BT; in fact, BT is the easiest to avoid since it's only temporary and only after unhook) being kind of annoying? Even then, it's only really in the endgame where it actually matters, your maths up there assumes that you're going to even be in a position to swing into BT every single time that someone is unhooked and that they want to bodyblock every single time instead of just trying to run away. It also assumes that without BT you'll only have to hit each survivor twice, if I'm understanding this right, but... what about healing, or other sources of Endurance? It seems really arbitrary.
Next, when you're comparing Dead Hard and Eruption, you're doing it kind of weirdly? Like, nobody cares about Eruption "miracling a hit", it's not the kind of perk where the value it provides is getting the killer damage, it's a slowdown perk. People think it's unfairly strong at slowing the game down and that it does it in a way that's extremely obnoxious to play against, which are very different complaints. Additionally, Dead Hard has far more achievable counterplay in almost all scenarios, whereas Eruption's counterplay is "hope you're on comms".
Finally, it kind of feels like you're assuming the complaints about Eruption must only be on the side of those who care about survivor experiences over killer experiences, but just anecdotally I'm a killer main and I want Eruption changed. I don't like that it's either overpowered or almost useless depending on whether I happen to queue against SWF, I would like to see it brought to a reasonable middle ground that works roughly equally against either SWF or solo queue.
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@Warlord1981NL said:
I know it isnt helpful but that's what survivors tell me when I complain that I see 3 or 4 dead hard's every single game...
Also: "Get good" is a joke of a response, literally, and "stop asking for nerfs" is pretty ill-fitting when we're talking about the only overpowered perk the game currently has. Eruption obviously needs something done to it.
Dead Hard and Borrowed Time would like a word with you, sir.
Stop complaining that killers have 1 perk that isn't meh at best.
Didn't see this until now, oops.
If you're able to recognise it as unhelpful and crummy when others say it to you, surely you'll see that it's unhelpful and crummy when you say it to others, right?
As for your second point, what about BT is overpowered? I can see why people might think DH is, even if I disagree, but I genuinely don't see what's supposedly overpowered about BT. Also, even if it were, that doesn't change that Eruption is also overtuned and in need of a change.
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I see what you're getting at here, and I do like that it's an attempt at making Eruption more of a nuanced, decision-making perk rather than just a flat 'screw you', but I do have two concerns.
One, I think it would be simpler and smoother to just inflict Exposed instead of the whole pseudo-Renewal effect. It's the same general outcome, survivors being vulnerable to one-hit downs, without the weird precedent of a perk that injures, even if temporarily.
Second, I think this would fix a lot of Eruption's problems, but it'd retain the one issue in that it would only consistently work against solo queue-- those on comms can coordinate when they're about to go down and tell people to let go of generators. It's not 100% of the time, obviously, but imo that's one of the issues with Eruption that should be looked at in the same overhaul.
@Warlord1981NL said:
No. Stop asking for nerfs. Get good.
Side note, this isn't helpful. "Get good" is a joke of a response, literally, and "stop asking for nerfs" is pretty ill-fitting when we're talking about the only overpowered perk the game currently has. Eruption obviously needs something done to it.
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I'm surprised only one other person has really pointed this out, but, this completely runs parallel to what boons are meant to do, as a mechanic. The other boons are only of use if the killer is also nearby, because that way the killer always knows where the boon is and can make the decision to snuff whenever an opportunity arises; there's risk in that the time you take to set it up may not be made up for, because using the boon means the killer's going to be nearby. It's why the boon mechanic is pretty balanced overall, and why CoH is it's own problem.
You can't fix CoH by nerfing boons, because it already doesn't follow the same rules. If boons broke on snuff, the result would be that the other three are so laughably, hilariously bad that nobody would ever use them... and CoH would still be a problem because it works best when it's in a position that's too inconvenient to go snuff to begin with. You'd have achieved the opposite of what you want here.
Even if that would fix it... not that boons and hexes are directly comparable, but the problem with old Undying wasn't fixed by nerfing how many totems spawn or making hexes easier to find/snuff. It was fixed by changing the actual perk itself. CoH needs to be dealt with, not the boon mechanic.
(As an aside, I don't think CoH is overpowered anymore, but I do think it should be fully reworked because of how it harms the other boons in the way I've described above, so. Same outcome desired, different reasoning.)
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Isn't his daily for getting hits on survivors, though? Camping would make that significantly harder, since the guards have a built-in anti-camp measure.
Knight has his issues, but he isn't really a problem wrt camping, daily included.
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@YOURFRIEND said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3321349#Comment_3321349
You're right in that the idea is not fully fleshed out and I'm making assumptions. That's fair. Arguing against a thing that may or may not exist and assuming the worst is bad form.
In a subsequent post OP says hitting greats can add fortification as well. Obviously problematic. And what threshold is fair? If it knocks my jolt to 4% then that's not even worth the perk slot. It's a mechanic that negates an entire suite of killer perks. Something integral to the entire role. Running a perk vital to winning the game and just not having it do anything is a hostile user experience. If I down someone, bring them to a scourge hook and am rewarded with a solid 0% regression because a survivor brought a toolbox and held m1, that's gonna feel awful. I'd rather have fast gens that my perks can interact with than invincible gens.
Right, but the devil's advocate counter to your statement there is that regression perks are vital to winning the game because toolboxes and other survivor tools make the generators go too fast for you to accrue any pressure otherwise. If those tools to make the generators much faster are removed, you won't need regression as much, which means it won't be as much of a problem if your regression is less effective.
You'd also still be left with tools to stall generators if you need them that would be wholly unaffected by this change. Corrupt Intervention for early game pressure, and Deadlock and Dead Man's Switch for mid-game pressure just off the top of my head, those perks involve blocking generators, rather than regressing them. Heck, blocking generators is seen as a mostly popular/acceptable way of nerfing Eruption too.
I'd agree with hitting great skill checks adding fortification not being a great idea, though, that could spiral a little too quickly.
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@YOURFRIEND said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3321034#Comment_3321034
This is such a weird analogy with so many holes that I dunno where to even begin. You're pretending like fearmonger and blood echo delete exhaustion perks? They don't. They're contingent on people staying injured which frankly does not happen since circle of healing was introduced. I'm the only person I've ever seen run this combo because it's not a game winning move duo. It's a "I am very fed up of dead hard" combo. And sometimes I am very very tired of dead hard.
You're proposing a mechanic that obsoletes regression entirely. Look at surge: 8% loss contingent on a survivor going down in 32m of a generator. A tall ask in most maps. An even taller one when you're against survivors that know how to hop in lockers or book it to completed gens before going down. And you're proposing that that perk, with these requirements..... Just do nothing if you proc it? Why the Christ would anyone ever run it? Survivors don't need toolboxes to do gens efficiently. All they really need to do is split up on different gens and they'll pop regardless of what you do unless you're playing an S tier killer with the ability to pressure the entire map. Regression perks mitigate that to a degree. And you're proposing to just take that off the table? It's a hugely lopsided proposition. Progression is easier and faster than regression and if you take regression out of the picture you leave killers with no tools to deal with it.
Well, hang on- you'd get procs on perks like Jolt before the generators are repaired with a tool like a toolbox, for a start, and depending on how much of a shield you actually get perks like Jolt might even eat through it straight away. To say nothing of this not being a basekit mechanic, it's being proposed as a toolbox rework, which means survivors have to choose to bring toolboxes which they already don't all the time.
You're assuming a lot about how something like this would be implemented. Remember that this is a nerf to toolboxes, because the pitch is that they carry no extra speed, they just provide this shield against regression-- you can't regress a generator that's finished, and so the speed is gonna be a lot stronger than the shield.
There are questions of how best to balance a mechanic like this, which might include select buffs to specific regression perks, but even on its face here it doesn't completely obsolete regression. Even if it did, there are tools for slowing down the game that aren't regression, and if survivors do generators a lot slower (which they would if this change also looks at certain perks), they'll be a lot more impactful.
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I've heard variations of this idea before, but usually it's just a flat shield that outright prevents regression- adding it in as a sort of secondary 'health bar' for regression to chew through is an interesting twist, I like it.
I would be all for this making its way into the game, but I think it'd also have to come alongside a hefty nerf to the current methods of speeding up generator repairs. Most of that does come from toolboxes, but there's a couple perks that would need to also be looked at to ensure survivors can't just blitz through generators with no real tools to deal with it on the killer's side.
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Most of this is pretty workable, though I don't think Trapper should start with all traps and I do think there should be some penalty to stepping in your own traps.
The former is pretty simple; there's a reason that the purple addon he currently has for starting with all traps has a downside, it's because it's very strong and not having that downside means Trapper can just immediately set everything up around the first hook he gets, especially if it's a basement hook. On top of that not being particularly fun or interesting for the survivors, it removes the more cerebral, plan-ahead nature of Trapper, and that's like, his entire identity, that's why you'd choose to play Trapper. The fix I'd propose for his current issue with early game setup is to have his traps spawn closer to him, trending towards the centre of the map, so you're never in a position where a trap spawns so far away that you'll never reasonably pick it up and you still have to put some thought and care into managing your traps.
(I'd also suggest looking into making the setting speed slightly faster at base, which would help him with saving time on setting up too)
For the latter, it's mostly the same reason; Trapper especially shouldn't get to mindlessly play on autopilot, so positioning and zoning should be important elements of utilising his kit. I would be okay with something like the... what's it called, the brown addon he currently has where stepping on traps just disarms them, becoming basekit, because that still means that trap isn't useful in that chase should you walk over it but you have the option to if it becomes necessary.
I'd generally prefer map-appropriate camouflage on his traps instead of invisibility, but honestly, the invisibility is probably easier to implement lol
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Except that killers are using different slowdown. Whether that's better or worse, it's clearly a different meta- I don't think we're ever going to see a version of the game where no slowdown perks are meta, so that's not a particularly reasonable expectation.
It changed less on the survivor side, but there is still more variation than before. Anecdotally, I do see less Dead Hard than before, even if it is still the most common single Exhaustion perk.
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The timing change really didn't make much of a difference, since in almost all scenarios both before and after the change, you only get blinded if you let it happen.
They need the right angle to get a flashlight save, that didn't change at all and that is in your control. Most of the time, there is the occasional situation where you have to look out in the open while grabbing (like if someone's downed right next to a window), but even then you just scout to see if the flashlight guy is nearby.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3319669#Comment_3319669
Oh no, I despise Survivor. I always have. It's some of the worst gameplay and design I've ever seen. Unfortunately, I know that I'm bad at it and I can't let it go. I doubt I'll get any better at it, my eyesight (much like the rest of me) continues to get worse.
Also, who the ######### is gonna report me for going AFK when I'm slugged?
When DBD Survivor works, it's fun. Unfortunately, that's entirely dependent on playing SWF and the Killer being nice. Every single one of my friends have quit at this point, it's just me left. I can't convince any of them to play anymore, they won't touch the game. I have fun by winning, so you can understand why I despise being forced to kneecap myself and be matched with people who don't know half the Killers in the game yet.
Who said anything about slugged, this is about being unhooked when you don't want to be?
And that's great, but the game shouldn't be balanced around the fact that you and your friends don't like it very much.
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Nothing, but you risk being reported because that's against the rules.
As for everything else, it genuinely sounds like you just don't like this game, and that's not a good enough reason to keep in a thing that almost exclusively allows people to ruin matches for their teammates by giving up.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3319647#Comment_3319647
Considering my own experience, my friends experience and from people I watch; I would say well over half of the people want to give up due to those things.
There's 6 hooks before the first gen pops? I'd rather just go next, this game is over. A funny Nurse brought us to Midwich? Hope the next match is better, but I'll see how long I can last.
I may not immediately try to kobe, but if I see my teammates just sitting in corners, I'm gonna consider it. This game can't handle forcing people to play every match out to the slow and bitter end.
The only times I DC (not saying you should) is when I'm ready to play a better game.
Yeah, that's kind of what I mean. You kind of have a point with the Nurse example (though that is again just 'i don't like this killer' with one extra step), but giving up and ruining the match for everyone else just because you think it's too insurmountable to win is a bad thing, and you should have to eat a DC penalty and lose your BP if you want to go next.
It is not too much of a burden to expect people to play matches out, even at this game's worst. This is also only about first hook, remember, giving up on a second hook would still be a thing if you're in a particularly irritating match that's stretching out for eternity- you'd just have to, y'know, actually play until you got to second hook.
If that is too much of a burden, you shouldn't be queuing up to begin with.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3319626#Comment_3319626
Making it more worth it to stay in the match would be better. Clearly, nobody gives a ######### about the penalties. Removing the ability to self-unhook will increase DC's and people going AFK.
After all, if we can't punish people for using unfun strategies, we might as well reward people for staying around. Incentives over punishments.
This assumes that even half of the people who suicide on hook are doing it because of something even arguably unfun on the killer's part, and not just that they don't like that particular killer character, or they don't like that they got hooked first, or they don't like something that a teammate did, or they don't like the map they spawned in on, or they tried to get a flashlight save and failed, etcetera, etcetera.
Because it is so easy and accessible and penalty-free to leave via hook, people can, will, and are doing it for absolutely any reason that catches their whim. These are not players with reasonable grudges against unfun strategies, these are, frankly, whiny children who will absolutely give up and screw over their team at the most minor inconvenience. If they have to take a DC penalty or risk being reported for going AFK, they're a little less likely to give up- or they'll eventually be removed from people's games, which is a benefit too.
You'll still see people DC, and if there's a reason for that beyond "i don't like [x]", that reason can be looked into. You don't have to choose one, you can and should do both.
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@AbsolutGrndZer0 said:
To be fair, when did you actually do these? Because NOED has been nerfed into the ground lately due to its reputation as unfair, so now its like "HERE I AM HEY SURVIVORS I'M OVER HERE" and very easy to cleanse as you noticed. The days of getting 4 downs while the survivors try to find the NOED totem are over, as you saw you're lucky to get 1 down before they cleanse it.
Just over the past few days, though I've used NOED intermittently on and off since I started playing a few years ago. In my experience, it's always been good for one or two downs on average, and then survivors either cleanse or leave. I have to say that the nerf it received didn't really change much in my experience, though I will acknowledge that I hardly used the perk every match before so perhaps that's affecting my opinion.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3319451#Comment_3319451
Because it's just trying to cover up the issue, not actually fix it. I also do not think it's going to have the effect that StarLost hopes for.
I HATE when we band-aid fix stuff instead of addressing the root issue.
What would the root issue be, though, if not people having a way of getting out of matches without a penalty?
I think it's a mistake to assume the core issue is that people want to leave matches, because people are always going to want to for stupid reasons. What we should be doing is making it so anyone who wants to leave a match has to take a penalty, and if there's some specific thing causing people to want to leave matches that actually warrants fixing, it can be fixed. None of that requires keeping the ability to suicide on hook.
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@Firellius said:
Remember that NOED also gives haste, so even downs on injured survivors benefit from it.
This is true, but if all NOED did was provide a speed boost, the only people complaining about it would be killers, because it would be awful.
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I don't necessarily disagree with anything on this list, although I would argue that the last three aren't exactly easy things to remove, since number three needs a lot of decision making and the occasional replacement, and the last two need full reworks.
Still, it'd be nice overall!
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I do think this is an idea worth exploring, but I think it'd also have a lot of downsides. Solo-Q players not being able to guarantee having a decent medkit would be a bit of a hit, though they do have other tools available (and frankly encouraging solo players to heal their teammates for once would be pretty nice)...
Chests and items would have to be tweaked significantly to make it work, but it could be possible. Heck, it'd be a buff to Residual Manifest and Pharmacy, in an indirect fashion-- maybe they could add more perks for the other items too.
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@Stabby_Widdershins said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3318480#Comment_3318480
How do you mean, Pinhead can force people to drop items? (I don't have him).
I could have worded it better, but the perk only works if Survivors willingly drop their item, be it just dropping, or from switching to a new item.
Any Killer per or power that knocks the item out of them will not trigger Entity's Hunger. Nor would dropping the item via being Sacrificed. Only Survivors willingly putting down their item will have it consumed. It exists as a perk to counter the 'Just put down your item in a corner!' counters.
Picking up Pinhead's box takes up your item slot, same as the Vaccines and First Aid Sprays for Nemesis and Wesker respectively. So, to a degree, survivors facing those killers will get to a point where they have to lose charges on their items, because interacting with those killer powers requires swapping out their items for a new one.
This is less of a problem for the RE killers since you can just use those straight away and it'll take less than ten seconds, but it's still a concern for all three. Not to say it's unworkable, just a balance concern to be aware of.
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The first one here I like- it's good to embolden the more interactive and 'fun' playstyles, and giving survivors actual benefit for running flashlights makes them less of a signal to teammates that someone's not going to be pulling their weight because they desperately want a cool montage flashy save, lol. I like the cooldown, too, that helps keep it fair.
The second I would like, but I see a problem with it- namely, the RE killers and Pinhead having ways of essentially forcing survivors to drop their items. Maybe that wouldn't end up being a problem in testing, considering you can theoretically just use those straight away and pick up the item again before the effect kicks in, but it is something that I think might cause problems because using those killer items straight away isn't necessarily always possible or the correct play. Worth testing, but could be a concern.
The third, I get what you're saying, but I fear that kind of perk - especially if it's strong enough to see consistent use - is really more going to incentivise hyper-fast healing speeds more than anything else. Maybe if it comes alongside reigning in how bonkers fast heal speeds can get, though at that point it may need a deactivation requirement too.
Interesting ideas, though!
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It's a good Lithe spot, since it faces outwards. It can also be used to stun if the killer is right on you, and if the killer respects it, fair enough you were outplayed.
It's a pretty weak pallet spot, but there's nothing really wrong with that imo.
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@FeryGEN said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3315995#Comment_3315995
The reason I remembered the perk is the phrase they wrote that the survivors should inspect the map. What's the point in a perk if the survivors mindlessly walk like zombies on a luminous pallet, even if it illuminates them when they run next to it outside the chase.
No, they wrote that the survivors should be moving across the map, not crouching over the same chest and rummaging it again and again. The equivalent for pallets and loops would actually be trying to chain them together, which is what you're describing as the problem with Windows.
The point of the perk is... to show them where to run to next, so they can efficiently chain together loops. Or, alternately, to show you which pallets are already used, which honestly is the more useful part of it imo.
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I really want to see a test weekend where they disabled the aim dressing system, like they did with Bloodlust that one time, just to see if it's actually making any positive difference. I think it's totally plausible that the only major impact it has on the game is causing killers to miss the occasional hit, and people otherwise wouldn't notice its absence.
Making hits look nicer is a worthwhile goal, but it seems like it might be doing more harm than good.
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I was lured in with the promise of an irrefutable argument, and I'm a little disappointed.
I'm not sure what citing Appraisal is meant to achieve here. Surely that actually supports the current version of Windows, right? Because survivors aren't sticking in the same loop to make the most of it, they're moving around the map to chain together all the pallets and windows that they possibly can. Whether you like that gameplay loop or not, if you want to use Appraisal's nerf as a metric, then that metric points towards the current Windows being totally fine.
(I don't really think you should use Appraisal as a metric since they're very different perks, but still.)
Honestly, I just don't really see the point in nerfing Windows. Either the stuff they can see is problematic for them to use, or it isn't; whether they have auras or just a good working knowledge of how maps spawn should be irrelevant to that topic. At best, you'd be saying that broken map design is fine if survivors can't see it and might not know about it, and I'm not sure I agree with that sentiment.
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Personally, if I were put in charge of spinning out some ideas for how to address Freddy, I'd look at making him more interesting and fun before I look at trying to make him stronger. The way I would achieve that is twofold.
1: Make snares and pallets basekit, have him cycle through them like Clown swapping bottles. The pallets are by far the most interesting part of current Freddy, and you have to give up the more useful power to even use them when I genuinely believe there's no reason. It wouldn't be OP for him to have both pallets and snares, so just let him have both. Maybe up his ammo count a little so it can be shared between both.
2: Complete addon overhaul that chucks out basically everything he currently has, in favour of addons that give him more fake objects. Fake chests as the lower rarity, fake hex totems that flicker and crackle like the real thing, fake generators that appear partially repaired and just begging to be interacted with... these would function slightly differently to one another, in that I think just touching a fake generator causes it to disappear and you to scream, but fake totems let you actually finish them (without being affected by any buffs or debuffs to totem speed) before they disappear and you also, scream. Higher rarity versions of these addons could also inflict status effects and such. Basically, have the dream world be his to control, where survivors can't trust their eyes and ears because anything could be fake-- give them some pressure to want to wake up without just slapping a flat action speed penalty on them. More interesting for both parties, even if it may not be all that much stronger.
(As an aside, Freddy is a predator in both incarnations, it's just more subtextual in the originals. Or so I'm given to believe, I never watched the remake.)
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@PrettyFaceKate said:
Does basekit camping stop working after gens are completed?
It stops working insofar as it'll stop you from winning the match, sure. If the generators are all done, the living survivors can just leave, which means the camping didn't really do anything for you unless you already killed at least two survivors before the generators were done- and at that point the survivor you hooked probably isn't getting unhooked anyway.
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People have pointed out that the purpose of flashlights is to get saves, and they're completely right, but there is a secondary reason for blinding a killer specifically at a pallet that I think is worth mentioning- to encourage the killer to chase you. I think the problem is you're expecting a flashlight, a tool that explicitly draws attention onto you, to allow for some kind of stealth play, but if you want to escape chases you probably shouldn't be bringing a flashlight to try and do it with- that's the opposite of what they actually achieve.
In short: Flashlights don't help you drop chase, they help you keep chase.
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Hook grabs being removed, at minimum for healthy survivors, would be worth looking into for an anti-camping change for sure. Limiting self heals isn't even slightly a comparable change, though, that's a gigantic sledgehammer taken to survivor gameplay and perk viability that also dramatically widens the gulf between solo queue and SWF.
I fully agree that healing should be looked into as a whole, but that's definitely not the right call.
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Hard agree, I've wanted this since his PTB. It would be a nice little QoL that incentivises using the Guards for that purpose to begin with, since you can do it quickly and easily without having to stop what you're doing.
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@not_requested49 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3310932#Comment_3310932
No, its 75% because it stacks with itself
This is confirmed by running both Botany and COH at tier 3, it will result in a gray bar, if either is not then it will be a red bar
This of course relies on the killer not having any mangled perks or addons
Maybe I'm missing something, but doesn't the Botany interaction imply it is -50%?
Botany is a +50% boost, so those two should in theory cancel each other out for a neutral grey bar, right? Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, the nuances of how speed bonuses and penalties work in this game can be confusing lol
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3310984#Comment_3310984
Here's the issue. A team of survivors gets 16 perks. There could be 0 to 4 boons. If you look at some of the most intense games from Otz, Coconut, Hens, Truetalent, *your favorite streamer here* - you will see that boons are a massive aid to survivors.
Imagine if hex totems required a boon to "delete them". Everyone would be using Devour Hope and Shattered Hope. If you don't have any boon players then you can't delete DH.
Somewhere around two to three years ago there was an internal test to the game where they made it so you can heal twice per game. After that you play injured. If that became base kit then boons would be fine. The issue is that being able to repeatedly shrug off injury quickly from the killer breaks the game.
One of the only things that VHS got right is that every hit matters. Hits need to matter in DBD.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3311352#Comment_3311352
Tell me you didn't watch the video without telling me you didn't watch the video. The boon in that game overlapped so two downed players in the basement got a free unbreakable from the boon.
There is zero excuse to have CoH and NOED not have similar rules. The old 2016 NOED is about as fair as the current CoH.
Base kit killers should be able to break totems when they interact with a boon. That is a very simple way to limit boons in a reasonable manner. It would also create pentimento interactions.
Shattered Hope would have a niche 2/10 purpose but could instantly destroy the boon on the first kick.
...Again, you're describing Circle of Healing there, not boons. Maybe Exponential too in a few niche cases, but categorically what you are saying does not apply to Dark Theory and Shadow Step. Boons, as a mechanic, are not equivalent to hexes and nor do they need the same balancing. They are designed to be used near the killer, meaning the killer has much more ample room to snuff them, and then setting them back up again is a little slowdown to keep survivors off generators.
The problem is not boons, the problem isn't even just CoH in some vague way, the problem is that CoH can be set up away from the action and not just be as effective, but rather more effective. Personally, I think CoH is a symptom of a larger problem (overtuned healing in general) and not the cause, but even if it is its own problem, it is clearly only CoH and not boons as a whole that need changes.
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@Vagab0ndCat said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3310967#Comment_3310967
I bet my right nut on the fact that you're absolute garbage both at Nurse and Blight.
What difference would that make either way?
This seems like just a kinda pointless insult, not something that relates to the conversation being had.
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@dollidahlia said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3310967#Comment_3310967
1.) I couldn’t care less about the nurse nerf, it’s more annoying that after she got nerf, instead of enjoying the fact that nurse finally got nerfed, survivors would rather just skip and go to the next killer who needs nerfs
survivor mains only care about themselves. They never advocate for any of the weak killers to get buffed like trapper or pig. And instead make post about deleting killers because “I can’t loop it”
so yes, I’m dramatic that killers are getting nerfed 1 by 1. But you lack empathy, narcissistic tendencies of course.
...Bruh.
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@DBDVulture said:
Honestly it would be "ok" if boons were a high risk high reward thing. If you place a boon and the killer kicks it then it's gone forever the first time (without them needing to use a perk). Why? Because that's how hex perks work and there's no way you are going to explain to anyone that more than half of the hex perks we have in game are even remotely good as boon CoH.
Why would boon perks have to have the same downsides as hex perks, when they aren't the same mechanic and aren't meant to be the same mechanic?
The way boons are actually designed - that is to say, the way all of them except CoH are designed - they're meant to be used near the killer. If the Shattered Hope effect became basekit, all the boons would be useless save for CoH because their core concept would no longer function.