jesterkind
jesterkind
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3341408#Comment_3341408
That's such a bad joke. Dead Hard is the undisputed best choice, which is why it's still the #1 survivor exhaustion perk.
Dead Hard needs a giant nerf, like what BHVR just did to Eruption. None of this "let's make it different, but still highly valued" garbage. I want it nerfed to the ground just like what they did with eruption. We've had such a long string of good things for survivors, that BHVR could at least nerf dead hard into the ground as a fair trade.
Something like Dead Hard only works on basic attacks, can only be used once per game, and no longer gives the survivor a speed boost when triggered successfully. Nerf and bury the perk. Make it clear the intent is to stop most people from using it, like what they just did with eruption.
Pretty sure I just went over why it might be the most picked even if it isn't the strongest, so I don't need to repeat that.
As for everything else; bit harsh, no? The time to do that would have been 6.1, but the devs decided it was better to actually try and fix DH instead of burying it, which I think is probably fair. It was the only perk that got changed in that update which was actually hugely broken and needed changes, so I can understand why they'd make it an exception in their approach even in the one variety meta-shakeup patch they've done
Whatever the reason was, we're past 6.1.0 now, so perk changes shouldn't be aimed at burying perks into irrelevance unless it's strictly necessary. DH is mostly fair with the exception of its use at pallets, so I wouldn't say it's super necessary here.
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The tricky part about that is that Dead Hard isn't the undisputed best choice if you're looking at it from strength alone.
Sprint Burst, Lithe, and Overcome are all much better picks for getting distance and breaking chases- people are just more comfortable with DH and prefer playing aggressively without actually breaking chase, which is what DH does. It's difficult to think of a way to make the perk less appealing without entirely reworking it to do something entirely different, and if that's the road we're going down, it makes sense it'd take significantly more time than a normal balance change.
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@YOURFRIEND said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3341342#Comment_3341342
I never said half that stuff bud. I don't know nuthin about no slippy slope. Are you arguing with another person or aggressively strawmanning me? I'll bet you a steam game of your choice that it goes live with either the nerfs announced or a slight variant (+5% regression). How about that?
You were responding to me, and so it was logical to assume you're countering my post, which was about this thread being premature. That involves the slippery slope stuff, fair enough if you don't personally think that.
Whether it goes live with the changes as-is or not isn't the point. The point is that people are acting as though it's set in stone without testing it OR giving feedback in the appropriate space, even knowing that those two things do make a difference in this game. My only criticism here is of people being premature and overreacting, because things do get changed from PTB to live all the time.
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@YOURFRIEND said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3341244#Comment_3341244
You don't have to play with it to see that it's awful; We already have an equivalent in Pop. Pop does double the regression and is terrible. The aura reading doesn't compensate for the fact that the regression is so miniscule that it just means the gen will pop in your face by the time you get there to do anything about it. It's a niche perk now on like two killers and even they have better options.
No it isn't.
It WILL be a niche perk now on like two killers IF the changes that we've only just heard about go through the PTB and onto the live servers, which is not a guarantee. The time to bemoan Eruption being a dead perk and start doomsaying about how it's a slippery slope to more nerfs is- well, never, that's never appropriate. But the time to criticise this change for being too much is when it actually happens.
That, or criticise it on the PTB feedback forum if you're on PC and can test.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3341308#Comment_3341308
The OP complaint was that BHVR claims they want to discourage camping. But they buffed eruption to discourage camping, and then nerf it into the ground, which encourages killers to go back to camping, because the kicking regression perks are no longer worth using. Why bother kicking gens for regression when we can use pain res and proxy camp the hook?
I'm happy to respond here but I'd like to acknowledge that this is an entirely new topic and not the thing you were saying up until now.
Anyway! Discouraging camping is a great idea that I support, but it can't come at the cost of an objectively overpowered perk like Eruption stalling games out for ages, you'd surely agree? There's no way you could make the argument that Eruption on live servers is fine and healthy for the game, so something has to be changed- and there's no point highlighting that it took years to fix one thing if they're trying to fix this thing quicker, because that implies you think they should leave this broken thing in the game for years too.
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I'm a fan of everything I'm seeing, yeah- Eruption might be getting hit a touch too hard but everything else is great, and it's not as though Eruption's changes are set in stone
Good stuff, can't wait to test the PTB.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3341275#Comment_3341275
The complaint is that BHVR still hasn't given dead hard a good enough nerf, even though it has been overpowered for a very long time. The "nerf" changed dead hard from the most used exhaustion perk.... to the most used exhaustion perk. I'm still constantly dealing with it, and I'd rather deal with the previous dead hard, because it didn't have a sprint burst attached to it, and it didn't hard counter a bunch of killers like Trickster.
Trickster used to be able to just keep throwing knives through old dead hard. The new dead hard gives a survivor a speed burst, and it resets the laceration meter to zero.
I don't want to speak for OP, but that claim really is not evidenced by the text of their original post. The text pretty clearly implies they're mad about Eruption being changed quickly, with an extra dash of seeming to not think it was a problem to begin with.
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@StarLost said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3341271#Comment_3341271
They are pretty much the same thing though.
My point is that BHVR have, since the 6.1.0 PTB, deliberately junked almost all the viable regression perks.
Thana? Worse than pre 6.1.0.
Ruin? Lol.
Pop? Meh.
Overcharge? Didn't even make it off the PTB, now worse than an empty slot a lot of the time (12 seconds is absurd).
Eruption? Bye bye.
So now it's going to be Pain Resonance all day, every day. Probably with DMS. Not because PR is fun, but because it's the only real game left in town.
So...what next?
Well.
Within a month, it's going to be wall to wall 'PR+DMS is unfair to solos and boring to face, nerf please'. And, once again, the word of the day is 'precedent'.
Yeah, I'm actually pretty salty about this one, because for a long while it looked like the developers were finally going to be a little more even-handed and considerate when it came to the killer experience.
My guy, what on earth are you talking about? The only two perks on your list there that weren't part of 6.1 are Thana and Eruption, and respectively, those perks were never actually viable and just super obnoxious on two killers, and objectively strong enough to warrant a nerf. You can't possibly be making the argument that neither of them needed a change, right? Even if you disagree with the change they got/are getting?
Both of those had a clear reason for the change that isn't pickrate - especially proven by Thana which didn't have a high pickrate unless you were playing Legion or Plague - and those reasons don't apply to the other viable regression/slowdown/what have you perks.
This also doesn't change the fact that this is a dev update, it's not even on the PTB yet. I'm not saying they will change the Eruption plans before live, but they could.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3341260#Comment_3341260
That nerf wasn't good enough.
Just because something got a nerf doesn't mean that it's automatically fine. Just look at how many people complained about Nurse, even though they gave her a massive nerf a few years ago when they reworked her power. Should we have told those survivors they shouldn't have complained about Nurse, because she had already gotten a nerf?
Okay? That still doesn't really relate to the core topic, which is complaining that Eruption got nerfed quickly when it took years to nerf Dead Hard.
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@Laluzi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3341243#Comment_3341243
This is the same team that nerfed Self-Care because its usage numbers were too high. Same with BBQ.
It's definitely a possibility. They will nerf things for no other reason than to try and create diversity.
That's kind of misleading, don't you think?
Like, yeah, those two perks did get nerfed because of high usage numbers... in the one specific update that was specifically geared towards shaking up a stale meta, something people had been complaining about and asking them to do for literal years beforehand. I don't see much evidence that the devs nerf based on pickrate alone, normally it's a perk that's picked pretty often because it's too strong and actually warrants the nerf.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3341235#Comment_3341235
They should learn from their mistakes and nerf dead hard for real. A nerf at the same level as what they did with eruption, where it's a waste of a perk for most killers. I will be dropping eruptions from my builds, and dead hard should also get a real nerf that causes a lot of people to drop that perk from their builds.
They just nerfed Dead Hard in 6.1, which wasn't that long ago. They should definitely be looking at tackling other, bigger problems instead of fine-tuning a perk that's mostly fine in almost all scenarios.
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@StarLost said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3341228#Comment_3341228
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3341207#Comment_3341207
Hyperfocus + Stakeout + Fogwise + PTS in a 4man SWF.
Not all those perks on every survivor (you'll generally see 3 plus DH or CoH) but it allows all the gens to be done in about 4 minutes (often faster than the killer can kill you) if you go to a small map, and also gives 100% uptime on killer aura reading.
It's...basically the old genrush + OoO style and I'm starting to see it more.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3341228#Comment_3341228
It's going to be useful if you want to heavy slug on Nurse or Blight. So...yay, more of that I guess?
Gotcha. Yeah, they really need to change Hyperfocus- hit that with a nerf so toolboxes don't activate it and the build falls apart, since they have to rely on normal skillcheck chance and they can't benefit from inherent toolbox speed boosts either.
None of those other three perks are a problem individually (or even combined with one another), so you really just need to get Hyperfocus dealt with. I'd like to see that in the upcoming midchapter perk changes, ideally.
@ the wider topic, I think this is extraordinarily premature. I will say I think the current-not-total change is probably too much, but this hasn't even hit the PTB yet, so there'll be a chance to actually play with it and fine-tune your response instead of immediately going "dead perk ugh".
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Do you not want them to learn from their mistakes? Should every change take as long as it took Dead Hard to get fixed?
I don't understand this argument. If you think it was a problem to take years to fix Dead Hard, surely it would also be a problem if they took years to fix Eruption? If so, they should learn from previous mistakes and fix it quicker, surely?
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Not quite the point, I'm sure, but what does HSFP mean in this context?
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@AMOGUS said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3340956#Comment_3340956
And yet this "small change" did affect the strength of Survivor. Again, gens get done faster and QoL changes, regardless of "purpose", can be buffs. That's all there is to it.
And to shut down that down somewhat, since it's partly correct but not fully: Even bad but not completely garbage teammates will do gens if they know who is getting chased. The strongest part of SWF is not picking teammates either, since most SWF groups aren't that good and while it's strong, it's difficult to maintain a good team consistently. The strongest part (partly because it's easy to do) is "killer on me", "i'm doing a gen, go for the save". It's very basic communication that is now basekit.
Maybe this wasn't a 1:1 change, but it brings some very powerful communication to the table, and there is no denying this.
And I'm sorry but nerfing speeds (especially gen speeds lmao) is also most likely never going to happen, it ruins builds and hurts solo queue. People hated gen speeds getting nerfed. And it IS connected, because buffing killers was step 2 of this own community's plan. Buff solo to SWF, then buff Killer accordingly.
That's anecdotal, though. I haven't noticed generators getting done faster in my killer OR survivor games, and neither of us has the "correct" experience for basing balance critiques around, so we default back to this just being a QoL change as it was pitched.
We'll have to agree to disagree on the second part. Personally, I think knowing your teammates are going to be at least partially invested in playing for the team and actually using the information they get is the much stronger element of SWF, since you can't exactly fix solo queue by just giving them voice chat. Ergo, it's that your teammates are guaranteed to be interested in helping instead of messing about doing nothing or throwing to get their archive done (which no shade, we've all done it).
Lastly, I'm not suggesting nerfing the base speeds for those two things, but healing at least definitely has too many ways of speeding it up. I'm also not sure what the relevance of the oft-repeated "buff solo, buff killers" idea is considering it's not, like, law, it's not a verdict from God. There are in fact other approaches to this topic that exist and might be more viable.
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@AMOGUS said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3333372#Comment_3333372
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3333357#Comment_3333357
QOL changes can be buffs, or end up being buffs at the same time, I have no idea why this is the new "unpopular but true" opinion.
In my games, Survivors now consistently get more gens done than before, namely because the inefficiency solo queue teams have is gone, and 80% of the strongest parts of SWF are now basekit. Killer now needs to be buffed to compensate, otherwise tunneling and full gen slowdown will be needed. Buffing Killer after buffing solo to SWF levels was step 2 of this own community's balance plan, and I hope this community can handle that happening.
QoL changes are always buffs, they're just small ones that don't actually impact much on the strength side of things. The intent and purpose of QoL changes is to make something feel nicer, smoother, or more accessible to use.
Side note, the strongest part of SWF is knowing that your teammates aren't useless, and that can't be made basekit. All solo queue has gotten is some of the information they were lacking. I'd also say "buffing killers" is not really the right second step here, the right second step is just... balancing survivors. Reigning in generator speeds and healing speeds, most specifically.
Obviously lots of killers do need buffs, but that's not connected to this change.
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The problem with this suggestion is that it assumes SWF is a guaranteed awful game, which simply isn't true. You, personally, have had easy games against SWF, and more importantly you've also had really difficult games against solo queue; SWF is only an intensifier of skill, it's not a replacement for it. Considering that the whole idea of SWF being automatically harder all the time is incorrect, the fact that no killers would opt into being matched with them becomes kind of a problem, right? It messes with the matchmaking, all for the placebo of killers thinking they're dodging a bullet that doesn't exist.
SWF really isn't the boogeyman a lot of players think it is. If you're having a really tough game, and it's not just people attempting to troll you with constant flashlights and bodyblocking, there really isn't any guarantee it's a SWF. It could, legitimately and possibly, just be a group of skilled solos who got a good map spawn and are all in the zone, and in a lot of cases it will be.
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I don't think this is a good idea, personally, and it boils down to two main reasons why.
The first is the balance/fun side of things- if Trapper starts with all his traps, then it'd be trivially easy for him to just set everything up around the first hook he gets, and this would be problematic if that first hook happens to be in the basement, or some other easily defended tile. That wouldn't be fun to go against, people would rightfully complain, and that's why the Trapper Sack has that downside- at least as far as I can tell.
The second is the side of the argument I personally find more compelling, which is that it removes the cerebral, plan-ahead nature of the Trapper. If you don't have to juggle your traps, and if you don't have to think about where survivors may run or what spots would be best to trap (because you're just setting up around your first hook), that completely undercuts the entire mechanical fantasy of playing Trapper. Needing to think about what you're doing and where you're doing it is a big part of his identity, and having all his traps at the start with no limit removes that.
However, I do think that his early setup is dismal and needs significant help. The main way I'd look to fix this would be to change the spawn logic of his traps- have them no longer spawn on the opposite side of the map to him, and have them spawn on his side of the map, trending towards the centre. There are other avenues to look down too - I've seen it suggested that he reload in lockers like Huntress and Trickster, and I saw one interesting suggestion that proposed changing his arming animation to be more like Freddy setting a snare, where he gets an aiming circle and tosses the trap to auto-arm after a few seconds instead of placing it manually - so it's not that Trapper is hopeless, just that starting with all his traps has too much downside, not enough upside, in my opinion.
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To be fair, it's not meant to help you get hits, it's just meant to make the hits you get look a little cleaner. It's not really aim assist, I think the term they use is "aim dressing" and that pretty much conveys it.
That being said, yeah, it's definitely messed up hits before, I'd love to see a test done where it's disabled.
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@Witchubtet said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3338870#Comment_3338870
The only issue is that causes a power vacuum. Let’s take the Gen progression buff survivors are getting. Killers (outside of some perks and add-ons) don’t even know when a Gen is regressing or near completion. Giving them progress to survivors isn’t a big deal if Killers also got slightly more information.
Survivors, as a whole, already had that information, so it's far more of a QoL change to catch solo queue up to speed than it is a full on buff.
It's certainly not a change that requires strictly equivalent changes on the killer side. If raising the average efficiency does harm killers unduly then absolutely there should be compensatory buffs, but that's an if, not a when.
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Others have pointed out that the changes need to be monitored before any buffs can meaningfully come, but I'd personally like to point out that absolutely nothing on your list is new or caused by these new HUD elements, survivors have been able to do that consistently and smoothly since the ability to form lobbies with your friends was added.
Now, some players may now be able to join in who wouldn't have before, if they're smart enough to pay attention, but that's still not new. This isn't going to cause new problems for killer, even if it cuts down on how many horrendously unorganised teams you face.
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Surely the give up button is just waiting out the two minutes? Go break some pallets or walls, or farm your power.
Don't get me wrong, I feel you, this is 100% the most annoying part of the game and it irritates me when I see survivors do it, but you do absolutely have the ability to just not engage with it. Worst case scenario, AFK and check some messages or refresh some social media while they waste their own time.
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There's just not really any reason for it, beyond satisfying idle curiosity. Most games don't show you the inner workings of their matchmaking system, I'm pretty sure- the only time you'd see a comparable number would be in like, the competitive queue for a game that has a ranked mode, but you don't see your MMR for the quick play modes in those games (again, that I know of) so it's a little moot there.
It wouldn't really achieve anything, and there'd be some edge cases were people use it to get mad or be toxic, so I don't really think it'd be worth the effort it'd take to implement it personally.
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@Blinckx said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3338853#Comment_3338853
Well both side should receive QoL, buff or nerf at the same time in order to keep everything balnced, or at least try to
The problem with "the can't do many things at once" is that, currently, there are at least 6 killers (Mayers, Sadako, Freddy, Trapper, Wright, Twins ) that need a massive rework or a massive bug fix or both but since "they are working on else" way to many things ( killers, addon, perks, map revork ) are left behind and forgotten ( again, Twins is the best example )
I disagree, I think expecting that 'both sides' get equivalent changes at the same time every time will just meaningfully result in nobody getting any changes. Let's look at Twins- if they half-assed the Twins fixes by arbitrarily giving them "something" at the same time something on the survivor end is changed, that doesn't meaningfully fix the Twins. If they put enough effort in to actually address what's wrong with that killer, they won't have much bandwidth left to do anything too complicated on the survivor side.
The only two solutions are to sit on finished work until they also finish something for the 'other side', or to just implement one thing at a time. I don't think one of those should be considered automatically and obviously better than the other.
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To be fair, they can only do so many things at once. I'm sure they've got ideas for killer QoL, and even if they don't, it's not a fair expectation to say that they must be talking about and implementing those at the exact same time as the survivor QoL changes because then nothing's ever going to get done.
Also, hexes could use some help, but making them work like boons is a very bad idea.
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I like the idea for Plan B, but wouldn't it be smoother to add that onto Left Behind instead of making it a new perk?
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I'd also like to add Alex Wesker from Revelations 2
It wouldn't sell as much but they added Jill's Revelations 1 outfit so there's hope!
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@HardhatKrugerer said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3335592#Comment_3335592
"It took years to get a change for Iridescent Head"
- Nothing to say against that. Agree. On the other side. It was on the same level as keys and look that difference between nerfing Iri heads and keys.
"it took a long time to get changes for old Spirit"
- Which is now only silly shadow of herself. In comparsion that DH what is able to extend any chase for another minute its really silly how impactfull changes it got.
"old Deathslinger"
- which is another one I´ve met in the last 100 matches only twice and it was absolute disaster for him. Maybe once he got two hooks, but thats all. Again compare that nerf to other nerfs on survivor side.
"it took six years to get Nurse's blinks to count as Special Attacks and to remove her busted range/recharge addons"
- Thats for a longer debate, but for now I can agree that Nurse should get some kind of nerfs, but not this kind of nerfs. Now I´m glad when I face Nurse, because I know its much much easier than before. Now mind games have even more efficiency than before.
"Leatherface is still extremely good at facecamping"
- For a prize of one kill. Any facecamping letter in my level is going willingly only for one safe. Rest of the team is doing gens insanly fast. Fast enough to escape and giving him only one kill. Which is depip. Leather face what is good at camping is not something what can be considered as an argument. You can learn how to jump out of the locker in the right moment when has frenzy. Its not that difficult. Its still same amount of time what you can count. He is not special. He is annoying, but not good enough to compete deccent survivors.
"Tombstone Piece is still in the game"
- Again. This is most of the time free win for survivors what know what is in the game. Lockers, slowered movement, gen rush. So many counters to Tombstone Myers. I lost only few times against him and that was just because I made many mistakes in row. That was my fault that I falled into the mind games what was obvious. But not Tombstone´s fault.
"Pinky Finger addon and it's still kind of a problem"
- There I have not much to say about it, because from my experience was pinky finger rare just like it was in the Blood web.And when I realised what is against me it forced me to change playstyle. It was hide and seek game then. I enjoyed that something forced me to think while playing survivor. It wasn´t such a boring M1 rush. But I guess many people should have a problem with it. Iri hatchet Huntress is anoying as hell, but your movemnt is a counter. Crouching at the highest peek of the dropped pallet is a still a good counter to her and more.
"Blight still has Alchemist Ring and his other busted addons"
- Yet I´m not seeing them as often as they are really difficult to handle. And in that moemnt you can see it at the first pallet what you´re going to face. So thats can give you idea of how to counter it. They are not busted. Blight must be mastered before you can use these addons. And even then there are better options how to play him, because rely on those addons is silly at best. And DH is countering bliught so much. And Knight as well when we are in these things.
"If we broaden out to talking about survivor problems in general, how about the solo queue changes that we only just now got and that sparked this thread to begin with?"
- Even before it was not hell at all to play survivor. I changed sides to survivors everytime when I wanted to chill and have more than 70% escapes that day. Survivors are perfect for pointfarming. You can almost never depip. All you need is Bond, Prove thyself, Alert and Kindred. Windows of Oportunity is useless for me as far as I can remember where is most of the things. And you need just two gens cooperately done and you have guaranteed that you will not depip at all.
"It's immensely obvious that BHVR are (or at least were, they're getting better about this) just slow to change things in general"
- Which is not giving me, again, any kind of trust into them to do it properly. For example already mentioned consoring system which is silly. Even I can do it better and I know only basics in programming.
Ps.: visible terror radius and more is unmentioned. ;-)
So, you're shifting the goalposts here. The statement I was answering is that they always nerf killer things quickly, and survivor things slowly-- that's not true, because of everything in the list I stated. Whether you personally like the changes they made is completely, 100% irrelevant- the point is that those things were a problem and it took a long time for them to get fixed. Doesn't matter if the fix that came in made them too weak.
(Though, for the record, Spirit is fine. She's still a top three killer. Deathslinger is suffering a little, but people tend to overexaggerate that too.)
Also, I believe you're thinking of Myers' iridescent Tombstone when you try and say it isn't a problem, and I actually agree the iridescent version is more fair- the purple Tombstone Piece has no movement speed penalty and can be paired with stalk rate addons to get up to Tier 3 pretty quickly, and the first survivor hit by it doesn't know to get in a locker, which means the Myers gets a free 3v1 relatively early. It's as much a problem as anything else on the list, same as Blight's addons; the question isn't whether you specifically have a problem with them, the question is if they're nerfed quickly to appease the survivor players. The answer is: No.
As for the visible terror radius and more, what do you mean? The visual terror radius idea is a good one, and while some help could be given to hard of hearing killers, it's not as though killers don't have visual ways of tracking survivors already. Hell, one could argue the equivalent to the visual terror radius would be loud noise notifications having a visual component. If there's something more specific and important to your point that you want me to address but I haven't so far, feel free to repeat it and I'll respond; these are long messages, neither of us can respond to everything at once. I'm focusing on your overall point more than every specific example.
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@HardhatKrugerer said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3335558#Comment_3335558
"I gotta admit- that wasn't what I was expecting for Pig at all, I wasn't even aware that was a thing"
- Yes. And plus adding another Jigsaw´s box so she cannot control them anymore. There is a lot of things what people forgot or don´t want to remember (not your case)
"The argument as you lay it out in your first message is that these devs make bad decisions, and you should always expect the worst of them"
- Exactly. Or you think that devs what screw up censoring system that you can´t write name Feng Min and in another sentence you can? Or harmless words like "Damn" "escape" and more? From these devs I should expect something? If they´re not capable of those easy things like censoring system. How should I have even a little bit of trust in them?
"almost all of your examples are cases where the developers were slow to act on a problem."
- But ONLY on survivor side. Or do you remember any case where devs delayed anything in case of killer? In case of killer they were fast and prudent as they could. And nerfs on survivor side? Hmmmm.... some things took them years to do something. Do you see that disproportion? One week for killer against "years" for something on survivor side?
"In most of those (not all, but most) they did actually act, and they did actually fix the problem-- they may have taken a while to nerf keys, for example, but they did nerf keys."
- And do you remember how long killers had to complain about it? How long killers had to adress it to finally get satisfaction? They did it. But after looooong looong time. Do you think that they deserve medals for it? That they needed years of complainings on killer side to actually admit that there is something wrong? To survivors it takes a moment and in in the next ptach its done. And doesn´t matter if thats reasonable or not. Its done because survivors complained. Thats not something what I can consider as a good job.
"considering that they did buff Wraith and Trapper, and both of those killers are doing better than they were before."
- Buffed to average level. Wraith is still one of the least visible killer in my matches. In the last month of playing I never seen single Trapper. Why when he got so called buff? Which was just totally minor buff in comparsion with nerfs they did to him before. Hag... delted from the game. I played against her 5 times in the last half of the year. And thats maybe even overexeggarated.
"Pig's most recent change where she was buffed, and in a pretty cool and clever way to boot."
- Buff what made her obnoxious instead of awfull. When I played her till the beggining it was painfull to watch how they made her below-averaged. Thats not what I consider as a buff to killer what needed serious buffs and not ,in comparsion with others, minor changes.
"The only example here I still don't fully understand is why Myers only having one skin is relevant."
- Its about how they screw to killers what need much more attention. Ghostface got tweaks and few changes tons of skins and Myers? One of the first and most iconic slayer from one of the most iconic movie series is somewhere burried and he just watch how devs are going around him and don´t give him attetntion he need. Hell I would paid for any skin from the last movie trilogy with him. His masks would be all mine no matter the cost. And after thounds of hours in DbD its very obvious that they don´t want to do anything about it.
Ps.: When we talk about bad decisions then I would like to remind you another pearl like visible terror radius for survivors with HARD hearing. It was in german devs log but in English devs log it wasn´t mentioned. Where is the solution what to do for killers what have HARD HEARING you ask? Simply nowhere.
Oh, I can give you tons of examples where they dragged their heels on changing killer stuff. It took years to get a change for Iridescent Head, it took a long time to get changes for old Spirit and old Deathslinger, it took six years to get Nurse's blinks to count as Special Attacks and to remove her busted range/recharge addons, it took a long time to get changes for the Pinky Finger addon and it's still kind of a problem, Leatherface is still extremely good at facecamping, Tombstone Piece is still in the game, Blight still has Alchemist Ring and his other busted addons. I'm sure there are more examples too, those are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head.
If we broaden out to talking about survivor problems in general, how about the solo queue changes that we only just now got and that sparked this thread to begin with? It's immensely obvious that BHVR are (or at least were, they're getting better about this) just slow to change things in general, it's not a case of bias on either side.
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@HardhatKrugerer said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3335167#Comment_3335167
I see that you just want to cherry pick what you want. Okey. Deal. If you want that type of conversation so be it.
"I'm not ignoring it" You did. Or you think I wrote something only about Pig and Hag? You ignored how long it took them to fix Hag´s inability to place traps in basement. It was a thing. And in the last PTB it was a thing again. Pig got nerfed Ambush dash so the only thing what made him atleast decent STBFL was useless as nothing else for Pig. Delay between Hags standing up when she place a trap and more. But go on. cherry pick just one sentence again. Because thats the only thing you read and you will be ignoring rest of the post. Man of culture I see.
Oh you edited it, thank god, that was going to drive me insane. I gotta admit- that wasn't what I was expecting for Pig at all, I wasn't even aware that was a thing. I'm guessing at one point the Ambush counted as a basic attack? Fair enough, that is actually a change that the developers actually chose to make so it's fair game for supporting evidence.
Okay, so now that I know what each thing you're referring to is-- I have to say, almost everything on your list is straight up irrelevant to the argument you're trying to make here. The argument as you lay it out in your first message is that these devs make bad decisions, and you should always expect the worst of them, but... almost all of your examples are cases where the developers were slow to act on a problem. In most of those (not all, but most) they did actually act, and they did actually fix the problem-- they may have taken a while to nerf keys, for example, but they did nerf keys. Same for a lot of the other examples.
The only examples which support the idea that the devs make bad decisions would be the nerfs to Pig and Freddy, and to be fair, the Freddy rework is hard to defend so you may be onto something there. The nerf to Pig I find especially interesting to bring up, because it leaves out a lot of relevant context- like, for example, Pig's most recent change where she was buffed, and in a pretty cool and clever way to boot. Same goes for a lot of stuff on this list; it's cherrypicking to say "remember how long it took them to buff Wraith/Trapper" considering that they did buff Wraith and Trapper, and both of those killers are doing better than they were before.
The only example here I still don't fully understand is why Myers only having one skin is relevant. Balance wise that loops around to them just being slow to change things, but the skin doesn't seem relevant to the core argument here. Maybe I'm missing something though!
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@HardhatKrugerer said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3335167#Comment_3335167
I see that you just want to cherry pick what you want. Okey. Deal. If you want that type of conversation so be it.
"I'm not ignoring it" You did. Or you think I wrote something only about Pig and Hag? You ignored how long it took them to fix Hag´s inability to place traps in basement. It was a thing. And in the last PTB it was a thing again. Pig got nerfed Ambush dash so the only thing what made him atleast decent STBFL was useless as nothing else for Pig. Delay between Hags standing up when she place a trap and more. But go on. cherry pick just one sentence again. Because thats the only thing you read and you will be ignoring rest of the post. Man of culture I see.
The first step of responding to you would be getting clarification on any part of your post that was unclear, right? It's unclear what you mean by those two examples, so I wanted to know what you meant.
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@HardhatKrugerer said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3335156#Comment_3335156
If you want serious answer, then don't ignore what I wrote. Or you want from me to cherry pick one sentence and made statement based just on that one sentence?
I'm not ignoring it, I'm asking for clarification. You're trying to use what happened to Pig and Hag as supporting evidence, but I don't know what happened to those two characters- I can't respond to that if I don't know what you're talking about.
So, what did happen to those two characters?
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@HardhatKrugerer said:
Doesn´t matter. You want changes and properly made up updates from devs what are able to screw up even censoring system for End game chat. If even simple thing as that can be screwed up. Can you imagine how they are thinking about buffs or nerfs?
1) Do you remeber what they did to Freddy Krueger ONE WEEK after release? How people would not get a chance to learn properly all counterplays and just because loud minority BHVR were afraid of them and so they murdered Freddy even here? In the film it was not enough?
2) Do you remember what they did to PIG? Because of loud minority of complainers? If someone is thinking it wasn´t minority of complainers they should provide stats which tell me otherwise I´ll be glad.
3) Do you remember how long is Michael Myers untouched with one silly skin meanwhile Ghostface had even his Scarymovie mask?
4) Do you remember how long it took them to nerf BnP?
5) Do you remember how long it took them to nerf infinites?
6) Do you remember how long it took them to change, not nerf, Dead Hard?
7) Do you remember how long it took them to nerf a keys?
8) Do you remember how long it took them to nerf insthealing?
9) Do you remember what they did to Hag? And how long she has been untouched?
10) Do you remember how long they didn´t fixed The Twins?
11) Do you remember how long it took them to finally nerf Object of Obnoxious? /s
12) Do you remember how long it took them to realize that Wraith needed some minor tweaks to make him atleast average?
13) Do you remember how long they didn´t touch Trapper which literally suffer at many maps?
In high MMR I can say I almost never saw single Billy, Trapper, Hag, Twins, Knight, FREDDY, Wraith, Pyramidhead, Pinhead, PIGhead, Skinhead and even more. Dredge or Legion are obnoxious and they are only if you want to have fun with meme killer.
So from these devs you want to revert something what nerf survivors into challanging playce again? You want them to give us challange one more time while playing survivor? Its not gonna happen. Look how comunity manager went into radio silent. Interesting, huh? I really owuld like to know answer for those questions.
I really shouldn't be picking apart any one of these silly complaints, but I am so genuinely curious I have to ask- what do you mean, what they did to Hag? Also, what do you mean by what they did to Pig?
I'm not being a dick here, I genuinely don't know what you're referring to.
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@Deathstroke said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3334324#Comment_3334324
Well it's bit more but solos still don't know which gen is repaired exactly. So if someone chased away from 90% gen solos have to find it but in swf I can call out which gen I did like gen around shack.
True, it probably averages out a little there. Yeah, I've played a few matches since then as both killer and survivor, and I'm inclined to say this change is a welcome one.
I'm sure there'll be some really competent solos that make great use of it, but those matches would've been hard anyway lol
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@kingcarl2012 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/363211/a-way-to-give-bbq-its-tokens-back
2% per token taking down to the 32m terror radius at full stacks?
That's my instinct too, though whatever's tested and proven to be balanced would be totally fine by me. I just want my stacks back, lol.
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@Deathstroke said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3332971#Comment_3332971
I can call out pretty easily my exact gen proggress 50%, 70% or 90% done etc. So it's fine now justbweaker killers need to be buffed but tunneling also needs to be nerfed .
Yeah, but you aren't constantly doing that, so this is more precise info. I don't think it'll be a problem, but it is admittedly very slightly more than a SWF gets on average.
Still, like I said, probably fine, just a liiiittle bit wary.
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3333327#Comment_3333327
The problem is that then no killers can compete with competent groups. I’ve said it before and I’ll say again: it’s not ok to not count the “edge case” of swf and then turn around and nerf killers based on a small number of people performing well.
But nobody's suggesting nerfing killers in this context, it is only being suggested that lower tier killers are buffed.
The argument is that leaving the top tier exactly where they are would result in them being slightly weaker, not that they should or would be actively nerfed.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3333327#Comment_3333327
It's not a good thing, because it's trying to make the top tier killers weaker. We were told these survivor changes were supposed to be quality of life changes. Your idea is trying to sneak in an ulterior motive of weakening certain killers.
It would be fine if all killer got quality of life improvements, and lower tier killers additionally got some buffs. But specifically trying to exclude higher tier killers from compensation is a garbage idea.
I mean, the survivor change that we have here is a QoL change. It might go a little further because it is slightly more specific, but the information in general - generator progress - is already shared... by survivors on comms. Spreading that same information to solo queue is QoL, because it's not giving them something optional or extra; it's catching them up to what they should have already and making that already available information smoother to access.
I'm not sure what you mean by that last part. What would higher tier killers be "excluded" from? We've already touched the few QoL things all killers could get, so it must be the idea of buffing lower tier killers, but... the top killers don't need buffs, they're already at the top. That's not exclusion, it's just basic common sense.
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To be fair, it is a QoL change. It lessens the irritation of being down information you would otherwise have, just because you didn't queue up on comms.
That information is going to be shared. The cat is out of the bag and there is no way to prevent it. The only choices you have are to allow some people not to have the information, thus making balancing dramatically harder because there are two radically different groups of survivors hit very differently by various changes, or making sure everyone has the information so any potential changes are received roughly equally.
It's only a buff and not QoL if you consider the information an optional extra, not default information some people are missing.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3333301#Comment_3333301
It is good for the game to have at least a few killers that are powerful. BHVR will never make all the killers super viable at high level play, and has never said that was even a goal they were considering.
BHVR has also never said that their goal is only to buff lower-tier killers, so we're talking in the realms of hypotheticals here. Hypothetically, what is being pitched is buffing the lower tier killers to be closer to the top tier, while buffing solo survivor because it obviously needs it, and leaving the current top tier mostly where it is.
That sounds like a good thing to me.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3333267#Comment_3333267
People absolutely are aiming for overall nerfs to the top-tier killers. You can see it in the flood of posts specifically asking for nerfs to top tier killers. You can see in these threads, where people say "buff survivors, then buff specific killers as compensation".
Here's a quote from earlier in this thread "Killers can always be buffed again if necessary (or at the very least some of the weaker ones which need it regardless)". Of course there are a lot of people that think it's cool to just buff trash killers and ignore the top killers, it's not a odd boogeyman.
Okay, but why is that a problem? Is it not good for the game to be in a state where the top tier (which is like, three or four killers, so not even that many) aren't as powerful but everyone else is at the point where they're super viable at most levels of play?
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3333187#Comment_3333187
1) An FoV slider
2) Quieter chase music
3) More reliable survivor noises (like footsteps), that aren't muffled or deleted if the survivor breaks line of sight
Those are improvements that could affect all killers.
No, it would not be far more effective and appreciated to address killer-specific annoyances. Making improvements to specific low tier killers, does absolutely nothing to address the gameplay on the higher tier killers. The goal of the survivor changes, isn't supposed to be "let's buff survivors, then buff lower tier killers, and leave higher tier killers the same, so it's an overall nerf for the higher tier killers".
Those would be fair, sure. Of course, they're not as necessary as the solo queue changes were on the balance side, but if we're looking for pure QoL those would be fine additions that I'd support- I'll take that L, I didn't think of those.
I am curious what you mean by that last part, though. What exactly would the problem be with bringing the balance to a point where all the killers are equally viable? The current top-tier killers are very strong, they hardly need any buffing and other than 'global' QoL so to speak the top tier killers shouldn't benefit too much from any changes made to the killer side. If we enter an era of the game where Nurse and Blight are noticeably weaker compared to now, but you can also get respectable results on any killer on the roster... is that not better?
I'm not saying anyone is aiming for that, for the record, but it seems like an odd boogeyman to bring up. That sounds like a pretty favourable outcome for everyone.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3333170#Comment_3333170
There needs to be quality of life improvements that affect ALL killers.
Because we all know what a lot of people secretly want. They want survivors as a whole being buffed, but only the low tier killers getting buffed, so overall, the top tier killers are becoming weaker than they were before.
Sure, but what would those be? What QoL improvements do all killers benefit from, that wouldn't be pretty minor and underwhelming? There's a couple finnicky totem spots for snuffing, that's something that'd be strictly QoL and would benefit everyone, but I'm struggling to think of much else.
If we want QoL improvements it would be far more effective and appreciated to address killer-specific annoyances, which is basically what they've been doing.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3333162#Comment_3333162
They need to give killers quality of life improvements too. Killers are more than their kill rate %, and they deserve quality of life improvements too. "Just buff killers" could mean generic number buffs, that raise the kill rate, but do absolutely nothing to make the killer experience feel better.
Surely those would be handled on a case by case basis, though, right? And if we're saying killers need individual changes that both buff them and raise their quality of life... isn't that exactly what they have been doing, most recently with Ghostface and Legion?
Survivor QoL changes like this are gonna be quicker and easier to do, I'm certain of it. They uniformly affect all survivor players. Killer changes are necessarily going to take more time.
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Hard agree. Mobile already has this, as far as I know, so there's precedent.
I'd also add the ability to double-check a teammate's loadout in the match details screen, the same place you check ping mid-match. That'd help a lot too.
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I have my reservations about this, but it is information that SWF have. I haven't seen this in game yet, obviously, but my only concern is that the information SWF give about generator progress tends to be less precise than something like the recovery wheel, so it may need to be scaled back...
But, y'know, any solo queue fix is going to make solo queue stronger, that's the entire point. It's not "survivor sided" to acknowledge and act on the fact that solo queue players lack information.
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I'm not sure why some folks seem to think the devs are gearing up for another 6.1.0 with their statement, doesn't it make more sense that they're just going to put a few perk changes in the midchapters again going forward...?
Anyway, a bunch of people have already gone over why PT is definitively not a problem, but I do agree that Eruption is overtuned and needs a change. Other than that perk, though, I'd personally want them to take a look at Hyperfocus and maybe some small tweaks to Nowhere To Hide and Call of Brine. Neither of those perks are OP on their own or anything, but they might be a touch stronger than they really ought to be.
Beyond that, I'm really hoping for perk buffs more than anything else. Except for Eruption and the Hyperfocus full build, none of the issues the game currently has are really caused by any individual perks- they'd need to like, retune generator speeds from both ends in their entirety rather than change any specific perk to fix that issue, for instance. Hex perks are weak, but that'd require more than buffing specific hex perks, and so on and so forth.
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Ruin wasn't changed because anything about it was overpowered or badly designed, it was changed because people complained about the meta being stale for both sides. To fix that, BHVR needed to both buff underused perks, and nerf the ones that everyone currently used, because if the perks everyone used were just as effective as before nobody would stop using them.
It's not a double standard, it's a case of a very specific goal being in mind with all of the perk changes in 6.1.0.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3330709#Comment_3330709
Pinhead chains, whether chain hunt or m2 also give incapacitated status when they attach. But keeping it restricted to killer powers is healthier for that particular status effect.
I knew I'd forgotten something, yeah, Pinhead chains. I agree, keeping it to short durations on killer powers/addons is a lot healthier than 25 seconds on a perk.
Of course, Eruption should have something replace the Incapacitated, but the Incapacitated should still go.
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I don't see any reason to assume this isn't exactly what they say it is, personally. They even said at some point that doing meta shakeups too frequently would be a bad idea. It seems like they're just going to do what they said- start putting some perk changes in the midchapters again, since there haven't really been any for a little while.
Side note, it's kind of wild watching the community react to the meta shakeup as though it wasn't actively requested by multiple people for years. This wasn't their idea cooked up out of nowhere, it was a community desire they were responding to.