ChrissKenobi57
ChrissKenobi57
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@jesterkind said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3242312#Comment_3242312
It doesn't give you any feedback, because it isn't meant to. It's not even capable of giving feedback, it's just a matchmaking system.
As for your other points, I'm struggling to see the relevance of any of those examples? A matchmaking system obviously can't be built on top of things that need to be fixed, or you'll end up with a matchmaking system that may not work after you've finished fixing whichever given thing you built it to accommodate for.
Like, I absolutely agree that those problems exist, but they'd need to be fixed even with a system that was built to keep them in mind. I'm assuming we're talking about crafting a system that keeps those in mind, because it's that or just purely random matchmaking, and I hope I don't need to explain why purely random matchmaking would be a horrendously terrible idea that far outstrips any issues our current SBMM might have.
Lastly, I don't know why people say things like "how are you meant to know it's working", because... you're not? That's not your job? You're just meant to play, the matchmaking isn't meant to be treated with such inherent suspicion that players demand glimpses into the inner workings of the machine.
Knowing how it works actually affects enjoying the game. Hell, this extends for any mechanic of the game. We're supposed to understand how things work and interact if we are to play the game properly and enjoy it. If you're paired with people far too strong or far too weak, won't it affect the outcome of the match and by extension your experience? Because BHVR decided this game will have one game mode and one queue, it's only gonna be competitive. That doesn't float everyone's boat. If we understand why we are being paired with who we're being paired, we're gonna enjoy the game more. If we know it's random, then we don't worry about playing with/against someone strong or weak, it's easier to accept if it's just dumb luck. As far as I know, many older games had systems like these and games that have casual queues also work like that. I don't see people complaining about those games. But if you know a system was designed to pair us with the best possible teammates and opponents and it visibly fails at it or it simply stopped doing that altogether (as it seems to have happened recently), why keep it around?
But back to the topic of game mechanics that are more behind the scenes, one absolutely must understand them to play a game properly. DBD elevates that to a whole other level. The fact hitboxes of a survivor unhooking and a hooked survivor temporarily merge, the way speed affects hitboxes, animations, perk interactions... Hell, survivor techs like the FOV tech and the CJ tech REQUIRE you to understand the game at a more technical level and not just play it. And because we have to understand all these, they affect the balance. And it'd make the devs' life easier if we gave them feedback on how all of these are working. The matchmaking system is another system in this game that affects balance, gameplay, queue times. It would be good if we understood its workings so we can tell the devs if they did a good job or not.
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@Criselith said:
Platform: PS4
Adept Dredge trophy is still bugged! It not unlocking the trophy after hooking 4 survivors and using only 3 Dredge's perks
Did you use his power a lot? Did you chase survivors away from hooked ones? Did the chases last at least 30 seconds? All of these factors must be accounted for. Also, the gens must not be done. If all 5 are done, the Adept becomes either way harder or unobtainable. And of course, none must get hatch and you have to have at least 10 hook actions. Survivors going to second state without being unhooked really make it harder. As well as using Dredge's instadown add-on.
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@jesterkind said:
I'm not sure I'm following the post here, could you elaborate?
The point of the SBMM system, as is the point of all MMR systems, is to sort you into general skill brackets to make the matches you get more fairly balanced than something purely random or, in DBD's case specifically, more fairly balanced than the emblem system. That's a low bar, so I'm not praising the system by saying it passes it, but it is the bar and it is passed.
Is this a longer version of the whole "wins don't indicate skill" misunderstanding? The last paragraph makes me think it is, so I can cover that briefly- the misconception there is that a single win or loss matters much for your MMR, and it doesn't. You have to win or lose consistently before your MMR changes all that much, because it's based on your overall performance, not how you play within one match. It's not a progression ladder, you aren't getting meaningful feedback (or any feedback at all for that matter) at the end of a match.
Let me know if I misunderstood your point, of course, but if I didn't- the system could absolutely use some improvements but it is better than the emblem system and the core design is extremely standard.
Part of why I ask is in fact related to skill and I know it's not a progression ladder. But my issues with it are: it doesn't give you good enough feedback on your skill to make you understand what type of people you should be paired with and many more complex issues affect the way it works. And of course, there are more pressing matters to balance the game to a point where SBMM could work better and removing it entirely in favor of connection based matchmaking would lift a lot of weight from the backs of the devs. If matchmaking is just random, then the devs will be blamed for one less thing and that's one less thing for them to worry about. But let's get to more specific stuff.
Say a streamer gets sniped by hackers for many games in a row and loses. Where could they have showcased skill? Or say someone is utterly dominating in a game and a bug prevents them from winning. They had the skill, but at the end it didn't matter. Sometimes the randomness from DBD also screws you over. You might be a great survivor, but a map just came out and it won't stop showing up on the rotation and you keep dying due to not knowing the map well. Maps are also a big factor that led me to make this post - there's barely any that are balanced. They're either super killer sided or survivor sided. And of course, people who prefer playing a particular killer or are grinding with said killer and they keep getting bad maps will struggle far more than usual. Perks feel more varied and better balanced, but maps still have issues that they had years ago. Of course, reworking maps takes time, but it feels like the newer maps have the same or worse flaws compared to old ones and the map design philosophy hasn't changed much. Gen speeds are also a problem - a killer might make gens take over 3 minutes to complete or survivors can have a team that completes all gens in less than 40 seconds and the middle ground seems all but gone. When all these factors come into play, is the SBMM really pairing people because of skill or is it just all over the place? And of course, SWF can really make the matchmaking system go haywire. It feels all over the place when you stomp team after team/killer after killer or when you get stomped non-stop and you can't gauge your skill. And if you can't gauge your skill, how will you know if who you're facing are survivors/killers of your own caliber and give proper feedback on how it's working?
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@Phasmamain said:
Do people actually want an accurate MM system? It would lead to very long wait times depending on your skill and matches that feel very stale
I and many others prefer having more random matches with shorter queues since we don’t take the game very seriously
That's what I want too. I don't want every match to be perfectly balanced. Plus, SWF becoming more and more common because of the bias against solo queue certainly interferes with that. Which is why I asked - why keep it around if it doesn't work and it gives the community something to pester the devs about when they could be improving the code in other areas?
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@Seraphor said:
Because it's still better than no SBMM, as was apparent during the tests earlier in the year. When you have purely 'random' match making, the amount of mismatch between sweatlords and newbies is far worse.
And it's better than the old ramk based matchmaking because it doesn't reset every month.
Yeah, but if people claim to still be mismatched even with it and we can't really gauge our own skill level compared to others unless they're way better or way worse than us, then what is the point? Mismatching sucks, but if the entire matchmaking is focused on that when many other factors may interfere with that, won't that affect how it works and how we give feedback on it? Why keep something that's supposed to gauge skill if it doesn't actually gauge skill? And once again, if they want to keep it and we all know anyone can lower their MMR artificially regardless of knowing how high or low it is, why keep it hidden?
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@Sava18 said:
Gen regression, gen speedup, med-kits, map balance, Nurse(kit) and Blight add-ons being adjusted changed would make this game feel way better for everyone. Oh and the way survivor's mmr is gained or lost needs to be changed. No one in this game think's you should lose mmr for dying after carrying your entire team on your back. Killer could be changed to hooks instead of kills but I'm not convinced that would work better, it might even cause killer's to be more inflated than a full meta nurse if not done completely right.
I think either BHVR should change Survivor MMR to go up based on how many escaped so Survivor MMR goes up as fast as killer MMR or Killer MMR should be Victory based and disregard the amount of kills. Like, say 3 or 4 kills give a +10, 2k's give +0 and 1k's and 0k's give -10. Currently, if you have a perfect game as a survivor, you go up by 10 MMR points. If you have a perfect game as killer, you go up by 40 MMR points (10 per kill). Why??? Beginner killers stand more of a chance against beginner survivors because they haven't mastered looping or skillchecks yet. Why would a beginner killer have to go up in MMR so much faster than a beginner survivor?
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@JakeCannon said:
Hey killer mains, I'm just curious what is your opinion on the current state of the game? Don't compare it to what it was before July tho. Scale of 1-10
It's... Boring again. On a scale of 1-10, probably a 6.5 for me. Most of that score is due to Wesker and Oni being really fun to play. The new meta for survivors became gen rushing. And I will call it that because even my build with 4 slowdown/regression perks is struggling when my chases are all under 30 seconds. Maybe it's due to map design being so wild. There are like a handful of balanced maps, a few killer sided ones and I feel like way too many survivor sided maps. New Haddonfield, RPD West, Garden of Joy, Temple of Purgation, Mother's Dwelling, all farm maps, all Badham variations, Gas Heaven, Eyrie of Crows, The Game and some variations of Lery's are pure pain. That's almost half the maps in the game. Only balanced ones seem to be MacMillan maps save for Groaning Storehouse.
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@Mooks said:
I think looking down always worked when it’s done in time? Though at least it works against flashlights.
haven’t seen any mentions of the perk in the patchnotes, so doesn’t seem like they changed anything here (though that’s not a guarantee)
If you look down against a Flashbang, you get blinded, because the light is coming from below. It's like when your angle isn't so good, so you use a flashlight while crouched to compensate for it.
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@crystalkitti said:
Not just his charms. All charms. Survivor AND Killer. They all show up as Balanced Landing when previewed, and sometimes in-game, too..
Like I said, my Killer charms are all what they're supposed to be. But yeah, the charms are oddly showing up as Balanced Landing only... I guess Nea is the entity after all.
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@burt0r said:
Wellin my eyes that was the point of bringing a working MMR, showing that when you put equal skilled players against each other, how the balance really is.
If you want to balance something then you have to keep some variables fixed so you can focus on some fixed point to balance around.
But until SBMMR, ranks where at a point where everybody with enough time could reach red ranks and the matchmaking became muddled and all ranks would be matched with each other aka the old rainbow rank lobbies.
But the problem is exactly as you say that the top, with the balance at the moment, isn't having a good time and bhvr is once again way too sloooooow to update/improve upon it and instead used the easy way and made matchmaking muddled again by widening the criteria.
They implemented a new system only to change it instead of balance so that we are back to the old times. Except that now we don't even have a colored rank or anything that can give you a hint anymore, that you might have been screwed over by matchmaking or what your personal skill level really is.
Everybody thinks they are "the best" or rather at "high MMR" but no one really knows and for all that we see on the forum we might just be back at a point where the difference between high ELO and everything else might not even be there matchmakingwise.
Many intermediate level killers end up at high MMR because of how it works. They tend to win a bit more often than beginners. If MMR works based off of kills/escapes and it is individual, then killer MMR goes up way faster than Survivor MMR. If the killer wins for 2 or 3 games in a row, they'd be going against survivors who won 4 or 6 games in a row (in the case they win with 3ks) or 8 - 12 games in a row (in the case the killer gets a 4k). Survivor MMR is individual, from what we've seen. MMR should take into account SWFs and proper teamwork. Survivors who escape with more people living should get more MMR to better reflect their real skill. You can very well use the most "rat" build in the world and escape without the killer ever learning of your presence in the game. Are you as deserving of the MMR your friends got when they were being chased, hooked, looping, doing gens, healing, cleansing totems...? It's a tricky situation to deal with. At low MMR, killers and survivors are evenly matched, but at medium and high MMR, they're really not too well balanced.
And we do have the issue of the net loss of players over the last few months. Those who stuck around are probably more seasoned players. So we end up back at a situation where Rank doesn't matter, because most people play the same way. I'm probably in that medium MMR hell, which makes me wonder - why do most of the players I face path optimally? Why do they all loop the same way? The game's balance has to be addressed before we can talk about MMR. It's like OP said, killers made years ago don't work well against newer killers. Why do you think most recent killers have antiloop and before that we got basically no antiloop killers? The answer's looping was discovered. It's the most powerful thing survivors can do to win and the killer needs to be able to counter it.
From the trailers we got for DBD at launch, game felt more like a hide and seek game. But the players discovered how to optimize the game bit by bit. Currently, every possible counter to every current strategy is known on both sides, optimal looping is known by both survivors and killers, all you gotta do is look it up or ask someone who's played for a bit. Hell, there's even tutorials on how to loop against specific killers. How do you balance this without a total rework of the game? It either goes back to focusing more on the psychological pressure a killer can create and becomes more like hide and seek or it hard focuses on looping (which I find boring, but I can understand the appeal to others) and adjusts everything from there. Currently, the game has too many variables to narrow it down to kills/escapes.
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I just got the achievement for downing 50 people with her crows. Honestly, I get why she's so unpopular. Much as her mechanic provides great map control and chase power, she's too tricky to master. DBD has an issue where the more fun killers are way too hard and the easier killers are simply weak. It's hard to find the balance. I find some of them hit the right spot like Billy, Cenobite, Demogorgon, Sadako. And even so, Sadako can get bullied HARD. Also another issue with artist is her hitboxes are reverse Huntress hitboxes. The crow swarm is huge. But the hitbox is so tiny. And the slightest change in elevation messes up the hit detection. So many Killer Instinct moments when I'm damn sure I'd have gotten an actual hit. And in the mean time, you face cracked SWFs, MMR makes you
want to tear your eyes outhave loads and loads of fun and unless you have really good game sense, you'll need a guide to understand how to play her. She's heavily perk dependent. -
@StarLost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2848810#Comment_2848810
Yeah, I disagree completely.
A few things.
- I'd say she is about as viable as Mirror Myers, probably slightly weaker. Her stealth is less effective than his and she lacks the crazy aura reading, in exchange she gets passive phasing and a mostly irrelevant secondary objective.
- The issue isn't that killers don't know how to counter-loop. It's that survivors have become pretty savvy as to how to run things, and some maps just have too many strong loops linked together (Swamp, Badham, Eyrie, Game etc). You can go and watch Otz's Nemesis streak as an example - someone ran him for almost 2 minutes...on Nemesis. And that's a defacto pro-player.
- Because of this, killers need an anti-loop. And this doesn't always have to be a tentacle or a birb. It can be an instadown (GF, Myers), a strong initiate (Wraith) or a gap closer (Demogorgon). Actually, killers have had anti-loop tools since the inception of the game. Which is why Sadako feels so terribly undercooked.
- Midwich is a strong map for almost all killers. RPD is miserable for everyone (I hate it on Sadako because TVs can spawn in completely useless spots, like the floor above/below a gen). Lery's is a great map for almost any non-ranged/chainsaw killer. This is neither here nor there.
- What? There was never 'less antiloop', unless you are talking about the game's launch (which will never be a metric for good balance). The only killers I can think of offhand that didn't have anti-loop were pre-rework Wraith and Trapper (and even he's debatable). Instadowns, teleports, snares etc. are all a form of anti-loop. A killer's viability is determined by their ability to end chases quickly - and their toolkits should reflect that.
I think we agree the map design needs some work, given what you said. If good survivors just optimized looping as best as they could and some of the best antiloop killers can't keep up, then that's gonna stifle what types of powers a killer can have and that also makes survivor gameplay a bit samey. I think we need more maps like Crow's Eyrie, that give us a good outdoor section with the old loops we all know and an indoor section with a viable loop that can be run any number of ways by both Survivors and Killers.
But back to Sadako - Mirror Myers has less speed and lunge range than Sadako. Much as the Teleports aren't instant, it's enough to throw off survivors and with the speed boost it gives you, it helps starting chases with an advantage. I've ended some chases pretty fast with her. Besides, she has more tools available to her to get information. The add-on that lets you know when a survivor turns a TV off helps, but it isn't necessary. The add-on to make survivors scream when they witness her coming out of a TV or becoming visible helps with finding sneakier survivors... Even her Scourge hook gives her good info. Plus, turning her terror radius on and off really helps. And because of her "passive phasing" she makes good loopers make mistakes too. Her add-ons also help with that. Also her Inexorable Stare saves A LOT of time. Got to down 2 people when I would've downed 1 if I bothered hooking today.
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I like her a lot. She's a more viable Scratched Mirror Myers, to me. I won't deny she's not strong with antiloop, but honestly, I think the over reliance on antiloop as a mechanic has kind of hindered the game. Looping seems to have become the central mechanic of the game and this might make killer players relearn how to loop. What bothers me more is map layout. Looping in most maps is basically the same because of the same structures - 4 walls, jungle gyms, L and T walls, Z walls... It kind of stifles creativity within BHVR if the community expects that same map design all the time. But back to Sadako - precisely because of this, she's strong at Midwich, RPD, The Game more or less and ESPECIALLY Lery's. Indoor maps make us have to loop in new and more creative ways. Instead of the same old L and T walls, 4 walls, Jungle Gym formula. And that is also healthier for the game. She goes a bit back to DBD's roots when there was a lot less antiloop.