danielmaster87
danielmaster87
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@tippy2k2 said:
While I haven't seen every single post ever, I have yet to hear a suggestion to nerf it that wouldn't absolutely cripple him and/or be pointless
"Don't let him rev when he's next to the hook!" Then he either stands just outside that range camping (like how Pyramid Head's camping the cages will stand 6 meters away when 5 meters is the distance to teleport survivors away; also note I don't know the exact number so that meters is my guess, not the actual number) or you make the distance so far away that you essentially take away his power (Bubba moves at 5.2 m/s when chainsawing per charge so at the very least, his powers have to be disabled for 10+ meters if you wanted to make it so he can't use his power next to the hook and that's one charge).
"Don't let his chainsaw down people when they get off the hook!". Great, like bodyblocking with BT isn't a big enough pain in the butt in normal play, now you want people to be able to just bodyblock Bubba when they get taken off the hook for however long you decide to make this (since it would have to be a time limit, not getting hit like BT since if you play your cards right with Bubba, you can chainsaw your way through BT).
"Make it so he can't use his chainsaw period when within X meters of the hooked survivor!" See the devs making the timer pause when camping with any killer when they did that big test. Shocker, it was abused to hell by SWFs who would purposefully loop their own teammates.
It is something that probably needs looking at but I have yet to hear a way to make it so that it doesn't either completely cripple the character, is super abusable, or both.
I disagree with the idea that his chainsaw stopping on a downed survivor makes him a worse Hillbilly. His tradeoff in relation to Hillbilly is that he can't sprint across the map, but his chainsaw doesn't miss like it does with Hillbilly. He can pre-rev and catch up to someone rather than having to back rev them and be super precise. His current ability to get multiple downs off one chainsaw flurry is simply a bonus, and it isn't the sole thing that he does better than Hillbilly.
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Add-ons like Iridescent Flesh show a glimmer of how he should be.
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@Verconissp said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/327312/how-is-blight-not-illegal
What if the blight is a Bump Logic bleet,
Ever thought about how soloq has been And always will be bad?
Only way we fix it is if we add voice chat in dbd, or atleast proximity chat, so i can yell at the damn meg that's in the corner of the map to just...
WORK ON THE DAMN GEN FFS
That wouldn't be such a bad idea.
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I swear you're right. The survivors I go against with killers I barely play are the same difficulty as the ones who I play against when I'm using my very best killers.
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@Milo said:
Right now it just feels like there's no point in reaching that goal, other than bragging rights or getting the 1m drop-in-the-bucket bp reward.You just said that it's useless and then mentioned you get something out of it, which is bloodpoints... the thing you want increased.
But you're right, imo there should be a bloodhunt around every month's 13th. Alternatively, first/last week of the month would also work.
There's no point in reaching it other than those medicore rewards, yes. They need to up the bp we get in general and/or reduce costs.
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@PowerLine_444 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2987191#Comment_2987191
Right, its worse than Roblox.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2985764#Comment_2985764
Oh you back to forums? Wellcome back.
And yeah it is pointless to save against Leatherface. But Trickster and Huntress are not that bad.
I'll probably just make passing comments like the one above. I'm not down to talk about balance anymore.
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Not yet.
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I try to make the most sensible play. If there's like 2 of us left, and I don't see them running for the exit for me to body block, I run out so hopefully they get hatch. If it's a killer like Trickster, Huntress, or Leatherface camping the hook, I don't care how many survivors we have, I'm probably leaving, because otherwise we're gonna end up giving them a hook trade and then some.
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You have to use your powers, and use them often for one. Static Blast raises madness and helps you find people. Static Shock stops survivors from dropping pallets or vaulting, so you can use that to anti-loop. However, it has a massive delay so you have to preemptively do it or they'll vault/drop regardless. Some survivors are just too good at running tiles, so even though you're shocking them constantly, you won't be able to catch them that way unless they're at a weaker loop. Your add-ons can fill in holes in your power, like showing illusions for info and to trip up survivors, or range so that you can shock survivors from further, or giving you a smaller terror radius. Survivors in madness Tier 3 can't do much, so no healing, no picking up off the ground, no working on gens He's only a mid tier killer though, so even when you take this advice, you're still gonna lose to the stronger teams. And watch out for the stupid add-on like "turns your shock into a ring", unless you feel like mastering that.
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Have you tried using Kindred or Kinship? It will at least ruin the killer's chance of getting more kills, if your team is smart and punishes them, and if you're truly getting camped.
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@Valik said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2920025#Comment_2920025
Didn't mean to suggest that EF made Cenobite INTO a 'weaker legion' - I meant that it was like adding the passive effects of Legion to his kit for a low, low price. In the sense that, Legion's greatest strength is that in many cases - he either has massive slowdown or 1 kit downs. Cenobite has the same effect in that Survivors will take several seconds and precious resources to heal, but the Killer's ability to hit them with the chain is understandably simple, meaning healing in many cases is moot. In this way, EF adds the passive deterrence to his kit that Legion enjoys. Bringing Thanatophobia on him with this item is insane, because survivors must choose between being a 1 hit in chase and a 5% burden to their allies... or wasting 16 or so seconds healing when that health state is just going to get knocked off first thing. The Cenobite is incredibly strong in chase because of the physical hinderance that his power grants - making it so that survivors cannot realistically exchange health states while maintaining the potency of his power's ability in chase is stupefying in strength. Legion isn't in the greatest place, but taking Cenobite kit + Legion kit =/= Balance. Punishing survivors for healing and creating an existential threat for survivors that forces them away from gens is one of the killer's entire powers, which is something the EF attachment ADDS to the Cenobite's kit. Forcing the Cenobite player to choose if they want to maintain the Cenobite's powerful anti-loop ability or incorporate the Legion's passive deterrence from Objectives is a drawback that is needed for such a thing. I apologize if the language was confusing or poorly structured. I did not mean to say that the EF makes the Cenobite into a worse killer than Legion, I meant to say that it is strictly additive of the Legion's core benefits, meaning that it - by nature - requires drawbacks to make the exchange balanced.
Again, I think we're getting off topic in terms of talking about the overall balance of the game's ethos. How at high ranks, survivor perks going against killer perks and powers in certain maps have incredibly difficult results. There is a logic to be analyzed that supersedes common knowledge, base statistics, or emotional conclusions - true - but that's a separate conversation that we can have. We can't move to another issue until we do our due diligence and come to an agreement on the one at hand - even if that agreement is to 'agree to disagree' respectfully.
And I understand that you want survivor perks to be generally less useful than the almighty killer perks. But I beg to differ where there's a subtle insinuation that killer perks are themselves weak - or that survivor perks themselves are too strong to fail. Survivor perks are basically all contextual, meaning their strength has a very selective area of potency. The major problem is the overall balance of perks, which means that Meta perks are hot garbage to go against, as their situational value is either generally strong - or the context of their perk's value is so broad as to overshadow the conventions of the game. Asking for survivor perks to have better balance or asking for certain killer perks to be made stronger are completely valid suggestions and solid points to make. However, suggesting that | Drawbacks | are a bad part of balancing is a misplaced sentiment, my friend. More survivor perks should have Drawbacks, some killer perks should have less drawbacks - but Drawbacks are all a part of organic balance.
The hypothetical point of your examples are a bit... misguided.
If you don't see your desired target on BBQ, you have a general idea of where they are: nearby. Using the topography of the map, you can hazard an educated guess as to their whereabouts. That being said, I think that we're coming from different levels of play. In the sense that, I cannot speak to your own experiences just as you cannot speak to mine - so I mean no disrespect, but if everyone's playing without perks and you're still struggling as killer wholesale, we are probably having different experiences. In mine, killer perks are strong and can aid in a killer's mission to seize the momentum of the match and turn the tables of time into their favor instead - but survivors rely heavily on their perks and items to survive chases, to make strong plays, to waste killer time and protect their momentum. If the killer player goes Nemesis and no players have perks, items, or attachments - the Nemesis should be able to reliably come out on top. A good Huntress should have little difficulty chewing through survivor hook states. A competent Oni should be able to end the game relatively quickly once they begin to snowball. Survivor base interactions and some maps are very strong with pallets and gyms - with some main buildings being much stronger than others - but overall, if you know how to use your killer power and everyone loads in with nothing, the killer absolutely has the advantage. Unless you're playing Sadako. In that case... R.I.P.
I mean, saving 8 seconds when you're slugged isn't THAT big of a deal. If the killer is in a position to slug, the difference between 22 and 30 seconds is really not that big of a deal. Even if survivors use Unbreakable to disrupt a precarious slug situation, it was a gamble that paid off. It's no better than, say, Brutal Strength for that reason. Brutal Strength can save precious time. If a survivor puts themselves in a position where that fraction of a second is the difference between life and death - they outplayed themselves. Slugging can be necessary in certain plays, but if someone already used their Unbreakable - or you have observed its affects in game - then you can do the mental math and tell when they're going to pick themselves up or reach find-help. Saving 8 seconds on a highly situational, completely contextual, and relatively uncommon interaction where that 8 seconds may or may not be of any use (I.E. nobody comes to help) it's really not that big of an impact. If you place the perk in its most powerful interaction and the best case scenario is that they have 1 anti-slug action, and nothing else, then it's a balanced perk. It's the equivalent of saying that Decisive Strike would have no drawbacks if, after use, it granted +0.3% wiggle progress on great skill checks. Well, yes it's a bonus, but if you're in a spot where the extra 0.9 seconds is all the difference in the world - you've got bigger fish to fry.
Yeah... setting a perk back to 'square one' is a drawback. Here, I'll make an illustration for you:
If perks find value, they are 1, if they add a lot of value, they are 2. If they add no value, they are 0. With 4 perk slots, survivors have an average 'Perk score' of 4 and a maximum of 8. If you go Deliverance, Unbreakable, Adrenaline, and Decisive Strike... but you don't get a safe unhook before you lose in chase, never slugged, not tunneled, and die before the gens are completed - your Perks have done 0 for you. If you Got a Deliverance, Picked yourself up, stunned a tunneling killer, and got a mid-chase health state at the end of the match, your perks gave you an 8/8 in terms of value. Having a build like this may give you 8, it may give you 0. That itself is enough.
If you try to use Slippery Meat in the match, you're more likely than not to put yourself in the struggle stage. Virtually killing yourself on hook is not 'having no drawbacks' unfortunately.
If you want to unhook yourself, you choices are: Get a safe unhook first and become broken after - or - 2 our of 3 times you use this perk it kills you faster instead.
Those are hefty drawbacks, and if it were not the case, you'd see it a lot more frequently.
I really don't understand the mentality here.
BT and DS are very easy to play around in many cases. You hit them after you count to 8 and leave them on the ground. You can go for a grab - sure - but you can also go for the unhooking survivor instead. The counter to BT is counting to 8, the counter to DS is leaving the unhooked survivor, or slugging them to pursue another. While not super ideal - removing a health state from survivors and either pulling allies back will waste more survivor time, or at the very least eat up their Unbreakable. It's not at all as if they don't have counterplay. They are very strong perks, but their context is highly specific. Remove that context, and the perks fizzle.
I firmly disagree that killers MUST do these things. Especially in the cases where they are seeing the returns dwindle from bad turns of luck.
If bringing perks like Tinkerer, Agitation, Thanataphobia, and Monitor and Abuse relegates your match to certain defeat - I have some pressing curiosities as to your methods while playing Killer, especially when the primary suggestion of this thread are concerns about Drawbacks used to balance perks with concentrated potency.
While some perks are certainly better than others for the meta, you really don't have to play super high risk high reward perks to preform well in match.
Especially so - if your perks are carrying you to MMR levels you cannot sustain, it may be better to forego the meta perks and let yourself sink to an MMR level you can better enjoy.
It's a game, it's not worth getting frustrated over because killer certain strong perks and their combos can become unreliable in certain circumstances.
@Predated said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/320202/balancing-with-drawbacks-is-a-bad-idea
Thing is, what you call a "drawback" isnt always a drawback. DH doesnt need a nerf/additional drawback because you get exhausted. Does that sound right to you? Then why nerf DH?
"Clowns yellow bottles speed up survivors" Yeah, but they are sped up less, let alone that survivors also get slowed down and can only medium vault windows when slowed down. Having both speed and slowdown would make Clown horrendous to play against, hence the "drawback" that survivors get sped up too(even though their boost is less than Clown). Let alone that Clown has had other drawbacks removed or reduced too. Adding one back in on top of being an additional tool that can be used in his advantage isnt really a drawback. Killers have to be fun to face too.
"Slingers chain can be manipulated heavily" not really, only if you actively move forwards as Slinger, any other direction and survivors would be lucky to get caught behind anything. "Survivors can break it too" well, yeah, everything with collision helps break the chain, thats not an additional drawback.
As for addons, that heavily depends on what they change. Because lets take Adrenaline Vial for example. It's only "drawback" is reducing turn rate, which isnt really an issue for a killer who can bounce into the nearest object and turn significantly. But then again, the old instaheal removed both addons and item entirely, that was a huge drawback, so what was the issue there, why did it need a nerf? Because the power was always beneficial compared to the drawback.
Just look at Yugioh for the basics of balancing. Pot of Greed, why is it banned in every tournament? Because it was basically a card you could put in your deck to reach the minimal amount of cards required, but pulling it means you can draw 2, so you could basically draw 3 cards and discard 1. In a game where 1 card can make the difference between a loss and a win, thats huge. So what is the reworked card? Pot of Desires, where you delete 10 random cards from play, only to draw 2 cards. People still use this card nearly as actively as Pot of Greed, because being able to draw 3 cards in 1 turn is just that powerful.
Now back to DBD, where 2% difference in speed can be the difference between a 10 second chase and a 40 second chase. Resillience and Spine Chill is often strong enough to make killers go for a swing that they will miss, and that's only reducing the time to vault by 0.3 seconds. And you're asking why any drawbacks at all?
The game you're asking for, is basically 2016 DBD, where nothing really had a drawback, you could use Sprintburst into a window, only to use Lithe to get a second burst while Sprintburst was 20 seconds away of being ready for use again.
Zoning out survivors wasnt the issue with Deathslinger, it was the fact that he could do it for free. Now he does it with a drawback. Let alone that Slinger could also guarantee a lot of hits that most killers simply couldnt without having a significant drawback(even Nurse would have a 3 second fatique AFTER the hit cooldown with the survivor being capable of adjusting plans last second to potentially dodge, Slinger could just aim/let go/aim/let go/aim/shoot/hit within 1.5 seconds and then have the hit cooldown, without the survivor being able to do anything about it. Slinger wasnt powerful, but once he was in range, it was harder to dodge a hit than a Nurse. That's simply consistently frustrating to play against. You do not want to create an opponent that can hit you without you having any chance to do anything about it. Because in that scenario, why even go for a loop at all? Why not just start hiding hardcore, making the game also super boring for Slinger. He probably would spend more time checking all the lockers than it takes him to reload with both reload addons and just quickscope you again. THAT was the issue. It wasnt the zoning, it was the fact that he could guarantee a hit without having any real downsides to it. You simply cant have that. That's like survivors being able to unhook in front of you without having any downsides to it.
And I agree that Clown's pinky finger wasnt changed correctly, but at the very least, the current nerf cannot have the Feather addon to spam 2 bottles and then guarantee an instadown. My guess is they altered it because it was easier for now(even though Clown has an addon that gives him 2 bottles, and a similar addon that caps the amount of inventory also exists, but ok), and my hope is they change it further that the instadown only applies to survivors who are not intoxicated at all, meaning you cant spam bottles to guarantee a down at all, but again, that's a whole different effect and requires a full rework, which requires more time, and pinky finger is used a lot less often because it cannot be combined with the Feather addon anymore to spam.
As for addon rarities, I rather keep the more useful addons common and the addons that require specific builds to be rarer thank you very much. Not all addons follow this logic, but more and more seem to do, which is nice. As for addons being too niche, yeah, I'd agree. While Mother's Helpers are very much in check with the lore for Billy, the pay-off you get for it is far too small. I dont neccesarily think the drawback is too much, since that addon is clearly designed around Spirit Fury and Enduring(which were common perks for Billy), its that the drawback outweighs the benefit too much.
Now, to your list of addons:
Last Will, its fine. Just giving her extra distance is going to be insane on a lot of loops, the drawback is needed just to add a risk to that gained distance. It's still a total increase.
Trapper Sack, even mains like Otz have stated that starting with all traps is insanely powerful, it absolutely needs a drawback, and not being able to pick up traps might sound super strict, but if you ever played with Trapper Sack, especially in combination with other addons, you'd know its not that big of a deal. You spend 0 time gathering traps, you can instantly create a perimeter thats insanely dangerous for survivors to take a wrong step and then you can simply harrass survivors into that zone. Where normally, Trapper tends to lose 3-4 gens before his traps start snowballing. Thats just 1 out of 2 addons, and not even taking perks into consideration.
Ink Egg, not really any downside to it, just forces you to play a bit smarter or launch your crows faster, and you'd get an entire additional crow.
Deer Lung, again, the kind of addon that has really nasty combinations with other addons and perks. The other drawback I would suggest instead of 2 portals removed is survivors being able to clear them 2-3x faster, which would harm him much more.
Yakuyoke Amulet is one of Spirit's strongest addons, it's drawback is non-existent when combined with Mother Daughter Ring.
Iri Seal is a bit more niche, but it also means 5 guaranteed pukes where you'd normally get 1. Combine it with Tinkerer, and you can charge a generator without being noticed and suddenly you have a free down, maybe multiple, in exchange for a gen, regardless if it lasted a shorter amount.
Surge is a bit of a weird one, and I feel like most of it is due to maps like The Game that are relatively small and could easily hit multiple gens in a row. You could have a Myers in T3 potentially activate Surge 3 times and regress all gens on the map. It's the kind of perk I like to use in my argument to change perk tiers into map tiers, where some downsides/upsides are only available on certain map sizes due to it being too strong/too weak on small or big maps. But that is a different discussion alltogether.
Pentimento is amazing, survivors waste 14(or more) seconds removing a totem only to create more for them to cleanse while slowing down gens with 6 stacks of Thanatophobia. The more totems you can relight, the stronger the initial effect gets. If you can place 4 totems, it would take survivors a minimal of 42 survivor seconds just to cleanse the totems, not taking in account the time it takes to retrace steps. Being able to keep relighting Pentimento would be extremely overpowered.
As for your "highly requested" section, which I tend to call paranoia BS for the most part:
Engineers Fang, no, I have only heard people request that it could also down survivors. Maybe the request to remove the injury was because it could be stacked with additional chains to the point where it was basically an instadown addon as Pinhead could vault through shack window before you could even reach the dropped pallet.
Pinky Finger, I havent ever seen that, maybe people requesting it to be reworked to not have an exposed status and instead an entirely different one, but I have seen similar requests to mine pop up very rarely, and I have seen that one 1000x more than people simply requesting the exposed status to be removed.
Flask of Bleach, probably the only one I have actually seen enough to be considered "highly requested". Clown already reduces movementspeed by 20% with his standard bottles, then he has a bottle to increase his own speed too. That's not even talking about how much easier it makes to hit Pinky Finger. Like I stated earlier, you want killers to still be fun. Flask of Bleach needs a rework. Personally, I'd rather have survivors have less visibility, which would overall work better in Clown's favor.
Pop, never really seen that one. The only thing I would change is to base it's regression on the amount of progression, like Boil Over does(oh look, another example of a perk that already had a downside, that wasnt "downsidey" enough, but weirdly not mentioned here).
NOED, I have seen that one, but not really highly requested. I've seen people suggest it to change it's activation method to be healthier. And one of those suggestions that are more common are indeed hooking everyone once for it to activate. But I have seen people request a full on rework more. I have seen people ask about NOED being just invisible all game to the point that cleansing 5 totems is still the only guaranteed way to get rid of it, but that there is a chance for players to have cleansed NOED earlier in the game more often than hooking people to charge NOED.
DMS, well, yeah, it needs a change, especially because of Artist. Artist right now can basically camp a hook and block gens for 45 seconds by spamming crows. Thats a free hookstate with 0 progression. Personally, I'd say it should have 2 countdowns, 1 countdown of 25 seconds where any generator that is being let go gets locked up and any gen that does get locked up gets blocked for the remainder of the cooldown. That would actively reward killers chasing off survivors from gens. Right now, it's basically a Scourge Hook/Hex ability without being a one.
But anyway, here's a list of things that I have learned with your logic:
DS, didnt have any deactivation method, with your logic given, it should be reverted, right? It wasnt nerfed, only given drawbacks.
Exhaustion in general should be removed, no need to have 2 perks share the same cooldown for any reason.
Instaheals should come back, it already had drawbacks before.
2019 toolboxes definitely should return, nothing wrong with them, they would be used up and disappear, and with survivor BP gains, thats a huge cost.
Boil Over could be reverted, no issues there. Cant be anything that's too strong in niche scenario's right? If they bring Boil Over and RPD, that's simply them outplaying you.
Circle of Healing overlapping was not an issue at all, the drawback was already that you had to find totems in the first place.
I could go on and on and on. You're obviously biased in your assessment and just want killers to be stronger. But for what reason? Because it's the killer's job to kill and they shouldnt be given a drawback for trying to kill? Well, it's survivors job to escape and they shouldnt be given a drawback for trying to escape either, right? The killer should work on that. So lets remove window blockers there too, because it's only a drawback for using windows.
Funny how your logic brings us back to 2016 DBD where every veteran player will tell you that today's balance is healthier for both sides.
I feel I've just wasted my time with this whole thing. You have ignored, diminished, or misconstrued just about every point I have raised. This game and these forums can sink. I'm done.
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@RakimSockem said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2919229#Comment_2919229
Well it's a good thing balance isn't based on what you feel because those things you listed ABSOLUTELY need drawbacks. If Freddy fakes his power to pretend he's teleporting to a gen, it absolutely should take a while to recharge. Can you imagine how much survivor time he could waste by constantly faking gens as he go through the map? That's be way too strong.
Also you said killers never had anything as impactful as an insta heal. I believe those are called instadowns...... Ya know, the Iri Head, Pinky Finger, NOED, Devour, Rancor, Chainsaws, etc. Yes most of them have drawbacks or activation conditions (as they should) but the point is that you're really sitting here saying killers don't have an equivalent to an insta heal when there's literally over 10 instadowns in the game
I don't understand. If Freddy taps the gen with his power then cancels it, which usually is gonna happen by accident, how is that threatening to the survivor? You do realize that he has to hold that tp for a few seconds to actually tp, right? He doesn't just instantly come out. My change would simply make it not so unforgiving if you used your power for a split second. I could say the same with Hillbilly and Spirit's powers.
The thing is that those instadowns always have counterplay and take skill. There's no counterplay or skill for a survivor pressing a button and getting someone from downed to full health in an instant. I'm guessing y'all are the type to heal against a killer when you know they have instadowns anyway.
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@Lochnload_exe said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/320202/balancing-with-drawbacks-is-a-bad-idea
Some things just do not need the drawbacks attached, but some things do. IMO, engineers fang is a good example. I actually think it is smart for it to have the drawback of it being able to injure but not be able to be used as a chase tool very effectively. It means he plays different and has new strengths. That is a good example of things with drawbacks. Imo addons like purples or Iridescents are ok to have certain drawbacks if they provide different ways to play a character. Myers is another good example.
When addons don't provide character altering changes though, they shouldn't have drawbacks. Something that simply adds a base buff to some sort of aspect of a kit shouldn't also have a drawback.
Killers kits, in general, is a bad example though, as "drawbacks" are just parts of their kits that are usually intended as part of counterplay. Being able to cut the chain of deathslinger isn't a drawback or even a bad part of his kit, it is part of his counterplay for survivors to use. Same with clown, the yellow gas affecting survivors isn't a weird drawback, it is a part of his counterplay where a clown has to use it well or risk a survivor getting to use it against him. With killers it IS a part of the balancing.
I think a more prominent problem that should be taken more serious is BHVR not being able to commit to buffs or nerfs. Seemingly every time they buff or nerf something, they also usually have to take something or destroy way more than needed as well. Take wraith, they buffed wraith but then also had to make him slow down to almost a standstill while decloaking. Sure that was a part of the basekit addon, but it still just felt unnecessary to an already weaker killer. Or slinger who ADS nerf was needed, but then also got the TR nerf. Just do the changes and see how they go, if they didn't take actual months to change simple numbers, it wouldn't be complained about so much in the community.
It sucks waiting actual years for something to change and then it being the laziest change in the world. BHVR isn't some 5 man indie team anymore.
It never fails to astonish me when people say that the Wraith nerf was unfair, but that the Engineer's Fang and Deathslinger nerfs were fair.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2920041#Comment_2920041
Myers' browns don't have drawbacks, though? Does he even have a meme addon? The Mirrors are purple, not brown, so bringing up those addons is a little weird- they're just weak, they're not weak because of drawbacks.
And again, they do have to be viable. The point is that drawbacks don't inherently make them unviable- Engineer's Fang is a very good addon because it's a ranged injure through walls and because you aren't loading into the match with only that addon equipped, you can match it with other tools. The Mirrors are just viable enough to be fun even if they are weaker than bringing more Tier-3-oriented addons. Plague's Prayer Tablet and the addon that gives you Vile Purge when a generator is completed at the cost of how long it lasts are viable addons. Even Iridescent Head and Pinky Finger are viable, they're just kind of boringly designed.
Some of them aren't! Most of the meme addons are just straight downgrades, and there are definitely a few upside/downside addons that are quite questionable, but the core design philosophy is perfectly valid. We aren't talking about all addons here, we're talking about the ones designed with drawbacks, and those actually tend to be pretty good on average.
There's little point in continuing this conversation because we're talking about completely different definitions of "viable". I know my definition of viable is usually different than others, even though it shouldn't be, so I shouldn't have to preface what I mean by "viable", but I will do so again anyway. To be viable, a killer needs to be able to beat survivors who do gens fast, because tournament-level gen speed is achievable by the average Joe if they just do the gens. You will see this when you lose games purely because of gens; try playing without Corrupt at high MMR. So to be viable, a killer needs to have near-instantaneous chases, which leaves a majority of the killers/perks/add-ons, that you people mistakenly call "viable", with a lot to be desired. It's why nerfing Engineer's Fang and Pinky Finger made no sense, because even with those the killers weren't viable.
And yes, Myers does have a brown add-on with a downside. Can't make this up: Blond Hair, which increases the stalking amount to get to tier 3 by a whopping 50% for the first time, in exchange for a mere 10 extra seconds of tier 3. No wonder I always lost when using Myers' browns.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2919981#Comment_2919981
I feel like you're shifting the goalposts a little here, friend.
It doesn't much matter whether they are viable right now, the point is that the concept of designing addons that have an upside and a downside is perfectly fine, because they're not all trying to be the objectively best pick or even just an objective upgrade. Some of them are viable, mind - Engineer's Fang is still a phenomenal pick - but it wouldn't matter if they were all garbage tier; all that would prove is that BHVR did a bad job designing them, not that the core concept of upside + downside is unworkable.
As for your example of Myers, I don't know why you would use his browns. But his actual upside + downside addons, the mirrors, are quite popular because they're a ton of fun.
Why is their viability right now irrelevant? Why would you design an add-on that can't get results? Those add-ons don't encourage people to pick them; they push people away because of how weak the drawback makes them. Engineer's Fang is not a phenomenal pick, because all it does is injure, making him a worse Legion. If you try to use his power for anti-loop, you'll be wasting your time.
Why would I use Myers' browns? For the same reason you said above. They don't have to be viable, they just need to be fun and unique, right?
But if we're being serious, if the add-on isn't viable, then why is it there? It's just a wasted game feature. And it skews people's sense of balance too. Notice how survivors only ever focus on "What OP killer add-on are they using this time?", the Engineer's Fang, the Iridescent Head, the Adrenaline Vial. They never once point out the browns and yellows, because killers have no potential of winning against good teams while using them. They're just there for show, and to give survivors easy matches when the killer doesn't feel like winning.
If an add-on exists, it should be viable. If the drawback makes it unviable, remove it. What are we even trying to do otherwise?
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@OpenX said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2919981#Comment_2919981
Clown isn't that weak. He just needs good add-ons, a good build, and a good strategy and he is a monster. Pro vengeance went on a 108 winstreak with clown at the height of MMR. A 100+ winstreak speaks for itself
I don't care that X streamer went on however long a win streak. We know those to be outliers, and they're only possible because of skewed matchmaking. 1 decent team and the whole streak goes. It's easy to go on win streaks with weak killers against bad survivors. A better indication of how powerful Clown is would be for you to get to high MMR with Clown and try to win. You won't find much success. Clown with Pinky Finger is decent. Clown without it is nothing.
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@Valik said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2919412#Comment_2919412
The fact that Pop is still a very powerful Meta perk speaks otherwise. But your opinion is your own!
Dragon's grip is in a very, very bad place - because if you push it one way or another, it breaks. There are more ways to punish survivors for being greedy with generators. Besides, exposing survivors in these instances is super weak, especially when used with Special Attack killers such as the blight. There must be a better solution to better repel would-be gen jockeys without stacking numerous conditions for limited returns in particular situations... with a cooldown.
I mean, if you're using it in an LT or a long loop - like the main building of Ironworks. But that's not Bamboozle's job. It's not supposed to block off a window forever, or even secure a chase, it removes the window for your next play. If you mess up that play, the survivor can go back. You have a powerful start with the faster vault speed, and with this perk - you can shut down MANY loops, including shack.
1 hit downs with pinky finger are just back-rev versions of IR Head from Huntress. Engineer's Fang could allow Cenobite players to end chases in under 10 seconds. These are disgusting addons regardless of High MMR. Good survivors are... well... GOOD - but they aren't good enough to overcome exposure and Hinderance all at once, nor are they good enough to make yanking chain animations go any faster. Engineer's fang in its current rendition is still stupefying in strength, as it turns the Cenobite into Discount Legion update, punishing survivors for healing, where RHPF Clown is just a discount IH Huntress addition to his basekit.
In addition, MMR is a completely different subject. But how you take your defeats and your demeanor does not demonstrate what MMR level you're playing at. This being said - playing against strong survivors and/or good SWF bully squads at high MMR with those stream-worthy games where you can play flawlessly and still come up short... that has absolutely no bearing on individual cases of balance. If you can recall the wisdom learned from Statistics class, the amount of variables you put into a test sample drastically muddle the conclusions that you can reliably draw upon. There are many aspects to asymmetrical play that are cerebral if not philosophical in nature where balance is concerned, trying to use the current meta of 16 survivor perks, 4 items with 8 attachments shared and map offerings with a Killer that has a unique power, 2 attachments, and 4 perks with both sides having unique interactions, resource pools, objectives, and time economies? That's not hard - it's downright incompatible.
If you want to talk MMR and meta plays, we absolutely can - but I hope I wasn't mistaken when I thought we were talking about the nature of balancing elements in the context of 'drawbacks'.
Factually untrue.
While killer perks are more precious than survivor perks - survivors without perks have no defining traits, abilities, or aspects of usefulness. Killers, however, always have powers that they can rely upon to circumvent the means of gameplay a survivor otherwise enjoys. If killers were 'Machete men' and moved at 4.6 with 32m terror radius and had not but their M1 to guide them - then I'd be inclined to agree. However, let's look at the extremes. If no players bring perks - not survivors nor killers - who TYPICALLY has the advantage? Killers have the baseline advantage in terms of 1v1. In absence of exhaustion perks, Endurance, healing items, information - survivors have nothing but the basic interactions to find their way through, which is enough in many cases. Killers, however, have powerful tools baked into their identity. Because killers have specific and drastically different abilities that completely modify the methodology of the match, it shifts the balance.
I'm not saying that survivors rely on their perks, far from it.
We've all been there where we get to the post game screen and see a really good survivor having run the no-perk no-item challenge.
But to assume that perk slots for survivors are EQUALLY as valuable, or even LESS as valuable than a perk slot for a killer is to be willingly ignorant of the asymmetrical nature of the game.
Killers only have 4 perks while all survivors have a cumulative 16, it's true. But Killers will always have their power to rely on, survivors with no perks have absolutely nothing to rely on to assist them in the game.
To a Killer, perks AID in their gameplay. Few perks inform gameplay or altar it in a meaningful way.
To a Survivor, perks DEFINE their gameplay. Survivors, generally, must be careful with what they select as perks have very particular applications.
Sure, a Killer may go out of their way for a scourge hook - then hurry along to make sure they get their Devour Hope stacks.
But a survivor with BT and Deliverance it will be COMPELLED to go for a risky unhook, because their perks allow for the opportunity, and they are otherwise wasting their perks. A Survivor with Resilience and Prove Thyself will be COMPELLED to work on generators and forego healing. A survivor with Inner Healing and Counterforce will be COMPELLED to search out your Hex totem. A survivor with Dead Hard and Iron Will will be COMPELLED to greed pallets. A survivor with Head On and Urban Evasion will be COMPELLED to play more stealthy and cautious.
BBQ and a few other killer perks may insist on their actions, but they are mere suggestions. Hooking all survivors once isn't a niche and requires no specific context. Seldom to killer perks do more than simply Inform and reward certain behavior with bulky and devastating rewards.
To a Killer, perks are secondary to the killer's ability. (Nobody takes scourge hook on Executioner for good reason)
To a Survivor, perks completely define how you intend to play the match ahead.
Eh - saying there aren't any drawbacks to Unbreakable is kinda reaching for it.
Not only does it have the possibility of contributing 0 value to the match, but if it does - it only gets to once.
If Dead Hard was only able to be activated ONCE to save yourself, then this would be considered a 'Drawback' by all intent.
The Drawback of Slippery Meat is you have a 2/3 chance of putting yourself in phase 2.
That and the fact is isn't at all guaranteed value.
If your friend was nearby and promptly unhooks you - dead perk. If you unhook yourself but are quickly out down again - Dead perk. If you get camped - Dead perk. If you aren't hooked until the very end - Dead perk.
Having only a 1/3 chance of working and a 2/3 chance of blowing your legs into the struggle phase is a pretty big drawback to the perk's desired effect.
Deterrence - yes. The existence of a perk changes killer behavior, indeed. But this is not, by merit, additional strength, it is the presence of such particular strength that it influences others. A fire is strong, but it does not become stronger because you know of it and are trying not to get burned - as if it's Schrodinger's firepit. Strong things will always have a profound effect on others in spite of their existence, but the nature of that effect does not, by merit, increase its strength. Unless you're Freddy Kruger... who becomes stronger because people fear him. But you're not Freddy Kruger, Hahaha! . . . Right?
DS has the drawback of afflicting you with a soft 'Incapacitated' once you are unhooked. You interact with anything, the perk is dead. If the killer leaves you well enough alone, or you have the audacity to... you know... play the GAME, it's a dead perk. What's the Drawback of the anti-tunnel perk? To get the best value, you have to put yourself at risk - or neglect the benefit of your team.
Borrowed Time has three primary Drawbacks that are small - but add up. It paints a target on YOUR back to begin with, if it procs - it still takes time to mend, and it doesn't even have guaranteed value. What's the drawback? If the killer can count to 8 or knows how to grab. Doesn't always work, might get you killed, and - in the best case scenario - you gotta spend several seconds picking up the pieces. They aren't MASSIVE, the perk is still on the top of the food chain - but it's blissful to suggest that Borrowed Time does not have its sense of Drawbacks, especially when it's discovered.
I think I see where you're coming from with all of this, but I believe you're approaching things from the wrong angle.
Your issue with survivors playing around the SH:PR/DMS combo is to release early.
That's like a survivor main complaining that killers can count to 8 before hitting a survivor to counter BT - or that a Bubba can overtake an open-field Sprint Burst - or that XYZ perks generally aren't useful.
Perks are perks, they are not always going to find paramount value in a match. Perks that grant guaranteed value have low returns, perks with higher returns have higher risk. That's just how the cookie crumbles.
If the drawbacks are getting to you, it may serve you well to take some killer perks without 'drawbacks' baked into them.
Go Tinkerer, Agitation, Thanataphobia, Monitor and Abuse - killer perks that give actual value without any perceived drawbacks.
If the gambling life is getting you down, it's time to cash in your chips and save up for when it sounds fun to come back to the risky playstyle. Besides, having perks that you typically don't have to work around or fuss about is a bit less as stressful overall. :)
I've never seen someone agree that Engineer's Fang turns Pinhead into a weaker Legion, yet saying that's still OP. Doesn't make any sense to me. You can't liken something to the weakest killer in the game, and then say it's OP for that reason. That must be what the devs are doing when they do stupid stuff like nerf Wraith and Deathslinger.
Statistics don't dismiss how you can make 1 or no mistakes in a match and still lose because of the killer you picked. It's not a matter of opinion. It's unfortunate that we have so few matches on video to actually see those unwinnable matches, but even when we do, people overscrutinize them and say, "I coulda won that team." Sure. And "You could have done X." In hindsight, it seems that simple.
If nobody brings perks, killers typically have the advantage. But that doesn't matter at high MMR where it's the reverse, where people know what they're doing. If the survivors can be in advantage while perkless against a killer who does have perks, then obviously neither side having perks still favors the survivors. There'd be no BT or DS to stop tunneling, but survivors can still be efficient on gens and hook trade, and still get out. The killer wouldn't have anything to slow the gens or help them in endgame, so their circumstances would be more dire, not less.
Survivor perks should be less impactful than killer perks, but they aren't. Killer perks should be way more impactful, since it's the 1 in the 1v4. But survivors have perks that make 3v1s seem balanced.
And no, it is absolutely the other way around. Survivor perks aid them; they can do without. Killers NEED perks and add-ons to do well. If that's not the case then the survivors are bad. Of course selecting certain perks makes you want to use them, but you can still win as survivor if they get wasted. Deliverence didn't happen for you that match, so what? It's back to a normal game then, where someone has to come for a save, instead of essentially creating a 5th survivor to do the unhook through your perk. It's not a net loss at all. If you're a killer on the other hand, and you don't see the dead-on-hook person with Hangman's or BBQ, you are screwed, because your whole game plan hinges on you getting someone out early.
Unbreakable doesn't get used once. You pick yourself up once, but the 20-second recovery to full can be used throughout the whole match. It ensures that a slugging killer gets severely punished. Where's the drawback in that?
Slippery Meat, too. Where's the drawback? Trying to do the self-unhook action in and of itself is risky, and that isn't Slippery Meat's fault. I reiterate that survivors not getting use out of their perks simply sets them to square one, and no further back.
DS and BT now. If the killer's tunneling you, you get value from it. If they don't you're still safe, with those perks providing an extra layer of safety if the killer later decides to tunnel. You're making it seem like you have to play stupid by running in a killer's face with those perks AND use the perk AND get away from them successfully afterwards, for you to get value out of the perks.
As I've said before, the reason killers still run perks with drawbacks is because they have to. It is gambling, because you're trying to win big, where winning big as killer in this game is winning at all. It's why Pop and Pain Resonance are attractive to people even though I know better and don't use them, because they do nothing against teams that don't give tons of downs for free. But hey, if you get lucky and the survivors give you easy downs and lots of them, Pop wins you the whole game. If you want guaranteed, you run Corrupt/Deadlock/No Way Out. Agitation? M&A? Who runs those perks? People who don't know any better, or have made peace with losing.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2919216#Comment_2919216
...But they're not? They're not even close to being a majority balanced this way.
There are no perks with built-in downsides that I can remember off the top of my head (requirements/cooldowns don't count as they're necessary balance elements), and the addons that have downsides are very firmly in the minority. It's just that occasionally there'll be an addon designed to bolster a specific playstyle, or to give a huge boost in one area but a downside in another.
Also, it's not "casual enjoyment and uniqueness rather than balance". They're still balanced (or at least, they're trying to be), they're just not trying to be the absolute most objectively good pick- they're trying to be viable picks for people who like the sound of the gameplay they encourage. That still requires balance.
They're not viable. If they were, you'd see them in tournament and at high MMR. That's like Almo saying "Clown isn't weak. They just haven't found his full potential yet." Weak stuff is used by casuals and people doing YouTube videos to show off an add-on the people never knew existed. It's never used competitively because it's a death sentence. Why would I want to use Myers' brown add-ons instead of infinite Tier 3 plus a stalking add-on, which can't even beat good teams?
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@[Deleted User] said:
Agree, to complement your post, DS should not deactivate when doing gens, Dead Hard should not cause exhaustion, CoH should not be able to be snuffed out, Unbreakable should have infinite uses...
Oh wait, you're just talking about killer of course. Balancing with drawbacks exists in any game, or do you really think something like Adrenaline Vial that gives a S tier killer 2 extra usages of his power + insane recharge not have one?
I wouldn't go that far. Those perks have those downsides for a reason. They don't need to get stronger in any way. The killer's stuff on the other hand is way out of line with all the downsides there are. Drawback balancing does not exist in "any game", it exists in some games, and just like in most cases of that, this game on average uses it terribly. I want us to get away from it moving forward.
I think Adrenaline Vial with no turn rate reduction would be completely fine if it was a pink add-on, instead of the instadown one that nobody uses. Most of these add-ons with these insane drawbacks are of pink rarity, so they're supposed to be the strongest but aren't because of the drawbacks. And when they are strong without drawbacks, casuals complain until they get nerfed so they do get a drawback, like with Pinky Finger and Engineer's Fang. Rarity means nothing to people for some reason. "Make the pinks as weak as the browns because they need drawbacks!" That's what they're really thinking.
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@EntitySpawn said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2919249#Comment_2919249
Yeah but they wouldn't look into it like that, remember their fix to giddeon being killer sided was add XX safe/god pallets in.
Using NOED will also definitely hurt players learning and getting better without it, afterall if they get extra kills due to it and go up in mmr they shall verse harder opponents and likely have less of a fun time as they're relying on it to help them.
I have no issues with the perk itself but I dont have faith in the devs to balance killers through things that can twist result and I also see alot of killers that struggle through a match have noed at the end. Once again I dont care but it just feels like they're misplaced and shouldn't be versing me but noed has lifted their mmr
Until the devs reward learning to play the game, and skill, NOED hurting the learning curve isn't that bad. You're gonna realize eventually that you need it to beat the highest caliber anyway. And it does create a risk/reward kind of strategy, which adds to learning, where it's like, "I can count on NOED at the end, so I can take this chase here" or "there's no way NOED activates, so I have to cut my losses here and now". That kind of thing.
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@Valik said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2919341#Comment_2919341
Pop being 45 seconds is fine. 40 seconds would be good too. Nobody needs it for 60 seconds, and it's still in the meta.
Oppression needs to have a lower cooldown and a buff, yes.
Dragon's Grip needs an entire rework.
Blood Favor doesn't need much to shine. 3 more seconds and it's perfect. 15 seconds is plenty in many situations. This perk is difficult to balance because too much blockage can completely break the game.
Bamboozle's block time is fine. 16 seconds is more than enough when paired with the vaulting speed increase.
Crowd Control's problem isn't the block time alone, it needs to be reworked.
Pinky Finger should only be 1 bottle or be reworked. Holding 2 bottles and having the option to increase capacity is just as bad as old IR head.
Engineer's Fang was broken and the nerf was well warranted. It's still incredibly strong as it is, they may have to add another layer of drawbacks to make it balanced.
~
Yeah, you're right. There are no drawbacks to survivor perks.
Except when you remember that survivors have no abilities - the perks are all that they have. While they hold the momentum early, they are not the deciding factor as to the shift in the game's dynamics.
Mostly in part because, until recently, they have not had abilities that, themselves, require Drawbacks.
in truth, every survivor perk has a MAJOR drawback built in - it takes 1 of 4 slots.
Deja Vu has no inherent Drawbacks to balance it because, well, someone took it instead of Borrowed Time.
Power Struggle is a fantastic Survivor perk... when it occurs in a match. But what's the drawback? The Drawback is you can take the perk in tons of matches and have it sit idle as a dead slot - adding no value to your games. If you pair it with Flip-Flop to make it happen a lot more frequently, then you're using 2 entire perk slots for an event that may or may not work out. THAT is the drawback.
The major Drawback of survivor perks is CONTEXT. The major drawback of killer perks is NUMERICS.
This is the truth, and it's a lot more important to understand that this is an asymmetrical game - meaning the balance incentives are completely different.
It's a lot more effective to explain the root of truth than to remind you about survivor perks like No Mither, Deliverance, Inner Strength/Healing, For The People, Resilience, Second Wind/Renewal, Fast Track, Lucky Break, Sole Survivor, Left Behind, Slippery Meat, Mettle Of Man, Distortion, or Decisive Strike... which are ALL survivor perks with baked-in drawbacks.
No, 60-second Pop was fine. The difference between the current version and it was that before you could get a hit before needing to use Pop on a gen, maybe a down if you were lucky. Pop being anything less than what it is now is gonna be a travesty. And it's only meta for mid MMR.
Why does Dragon's Grip need a rework? It's too strong as is if it were to get a numbers buff? Hardly. We need perks like it that actually do something for a killer wasting time to kick a gen, and we need them to be good.
Many times when survivors are able to connect loops together, or it's just a BS long loop, the 16 seconds of blockage literally isn't enough and the survivors are able to vault that window after you've just Bamboozled it, forcing you to Bamboozle it again AND gain bloodlust just to catch them, for one hit.
In addition to the stuff mentioned above, you thinking that Pop, Pinky Finger, and Engineer's Fang, even their pre-nerf versions, would be viable at high MMR shows that you either haven't played with those things at high MMR, or you got extremely niche and lucky conditions in those matches. None of their nerfs were warranted because killers, even when using these powerful things, weren't strong enough to compete with the better survivors. We need to get out of this habit of nerfing stuff that isn't viable at high MMR just because bad solos at mid MMR can't beat it. Additionally, we need put a little more thought into what high MMR is. If you're not losing matches as killer and thinking to yourself afterwards, "There was nothing I could have done differently to win", save 1 or 2 small mistakes you made, then you're not at high MMR. That mindset correlates with the experience of playing at high MMR and actually trying to win, but being unable to.
And no, I will not allow you to go there: A survivor perk having a drawback because the perk slots are finite isn't really a fair argument if you don't say the same of killer perks. If anything, the killer having 4 perks vs 16 survivor perks tilts the perk economy in the survivors' favor. The killer having an ability doesn't change this, and is irrelevant. Killers not using meta perks makes them less strong, just like it does for survivor.
Drawbacks in survivors perks is either them having something stupid, like Visionary having a cooldown, or having difficult activation conditions, which is the same with killer perk drawbacks. Power Struggle would be a good example, as you've pointed out. But Unbreakable wouldn't be, because while not all killers can use slugging very successfully at high MMR, it does happen that they leave you on the ground for ~20 seconds pretty often.
Slippery meat actually doesn't have a downside if you ask me, because it gives you both additional likelihood of escaping per escape attempt AND 3 additional escape attempts, with no increased penalty to escape attempts or anything. The risk involved with that perk comes from the unhook attempt feature itself, and the small likelihood that you'll actually get off.
The meta perks DS, BT, and all that fall in the same basket of having no real drawback. They're hard to discuss because of their unique relation to killer behavior, in that their mere existence is enough to make killers respect them, even if they're not in play. If those perks are meant to stop or mitigate tunneling, they're doing just that whether they get "used" or not, so where's the downside there?
And there's all those other survivor perks that have harsh activation conditions, but the thing is that those aren't meta. The killer meta is riddled with perks that have drawbacks, but killers use them anyway because it's the best stuff they've got. When survivors let go of gens early to play around Pain Resonance/DMS, you now have to go to the gen to push them off to block it, which is the weak and niche use it had before Pain Resonance was a thing. And perks like those, and Pop and Ruin, are dependent on survivors giving lots of hooks and delaying on gens long enough to give the killer a chance to use those perks, which they could very easily not do. That's why killer perks don't have that "useful even when not used" kind of strength that survivor perks have. And just in general, the survivors not getting to use their perks? No big deal. The killer not getting to use their perks? Huge deal.
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Either way is just as risky.
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@_AdamFrancis_ said:
Seriously. How was this allowed.
When you combine Dad Boots with Spiked Boots, it creates a really uncounterable combo. There is nothing you can do again this because if you end up avoiding his chainsaw, guess what?
He can instantly turn around and down you. There is no way to strafe or anything to avoid his chainsaw with this combo.
And before you say to hold W, on most open maps that won't matter because he can catch up in seconds.
Even on indoor maps, with this combo you have so much control over your chainsaw it's unfair.
And I understand that it's one of the only things Billy has going for him, but that doesn't mean it should be allowed.
I can't see how him having these 2 add-ons changes the counterplay to him. His chase design is so safe for survivors. He has to make crazy reads to even get you with his chainsaw.
@_AdamFrancis_ said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2919311#Comment_2919311
"Follow his line of pathing" my guy, he can immediately adjust his camera, what you listed is not counterplay
Not once he starts the sprint. Once he starts it, it locks his camera facing forward, which throws off his aim and denies him point-blank saws sometimes.
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Uh, @Sluzzy, what's your take?
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@Mazoobi said:
The game is so ugh-
No matter what side I play, it's hard to even have fun at all. Players who have genuinely played both sides at a good amount without being biased know that neither side is healthy and the balance is thrown out the window.
It feels like the stress and fun are determined by a war between whoever brings the best nuke(s) to the trial and who's side RNG is on.
I hope the game receives the changes it needs so the health of the game can benefit all players.
I've been dying for this next update. I've never felt this drained and in need of new content before. I'm not even excited for the changes themselves at all. I just need some feeling of change.
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@Valik said:
Everything has a cost.
Cost is a core pillar of balance.
If something is imbalanced because there is a lack of cost, you implement a form of cost to restore balance - directly or indirectly.
Adding drawbacks to perks and items are completely normal. Drawbacks, by merit, are not the issue. However, Drawbacks are the pointed head of that Balancing teeter totter - sometimes the Drawbacks can be far too great and make the proverbial seesaw dip the other way.
Earlier, Mr. Devil pointed out quite correctly how Hilbilly has addons that sport significant drawbacks and how poor these items are. However - the problem is not the drawbacks themselves, it is the metric of balance that they insinuate into the match.
How many times do you ever get blinded as a killer? Is it worth POTENTIALLY shaving off a fraction of a second worth of time in those circumstances?
Back-revving is a strategy, so I understand lowering movement speed to 4.4 while boosting charge speed. However, the amount of charge speed increased does not justify the monumental drawback of -0.2m/s on your base speed.
The problem is not the pivoting triangle used to strike a balance between the two extremes of a line - but rather, its proper or improper placement.
Yes, and there has been very improper placement of drawbacks all over the place, especially for killer. Pop being 45 seconds (from 60), Oppression's 80-second cooldown, Dragon's Grip's 80-second cooldown, Blood Favor and Summoning Stone lasting a measly 15 seconds, Bamboozle and Crowd Control lasting a measly 16 and 20 seconds, Pinky Finger taking away 2 bottles, Engineer's Fang taking away a chain, ranged killers' reloads being so slow, etc. Survivor get way fewer of these ridiculous setbacks, with Autodidact being the only thing I can name off the top of my head, but it is a comprehensive problem with the game. Who wants to play with stuff that makes them weaker? No, we want strength increases and zero drawbacks, especially with higher rarity things.
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@EntitySpawn said:
There is nothing wrong with noed.
The only thing that is bad about noed is it's way it boosts kill rates, same as rancor can.
I do feel alot of the hate towards NOED is the entitlement of Escaping, I'd be okay with a change as it wouldn't impact me.
If it stays how it is that's perfectly okay but I will say if you are a noed user YOU ARE HOLDING BACK KILLER BUFFS BY BOOSTING KILL RATES. But that the killer side of me talking and I avoid playing killer now
It's the devs' jobs to see if all those wins are gained through NOED or not. It's not our responsibility to not use a perk because it supposedly skews the results. That's just guilt tripping the players instead of the devs' bad game design and sense of measuring in-game results.
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@katoptris said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2919234#Comment_2919234
You need to be in dream world to activate it.
That too. Unbelievable when I first saw it.
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Because the standard of meta perks they have already is way too high.
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Still having survivors already running even when I instantly tp.
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@DyingWish92 said:
Devs can we do something about this and help out Myers?? This is ridiculously outdated. Why does he start off worse then a regular killer??? His stealth means very little, good survivors are not stupid and a lot of them use spine chill which makes his start to the game pathetic.
It's time to update Myers. Stop using bloated kill rates from strong add ons as data that he is in a good spot. This is what I suspect you are doing. ^
Isn't this also the killer that opened up the flood gates for DBD with the Halloween chapter? Myers needs some love soon!!
A killer should never be less than 110% movement speed.
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Yeah. Why do you think all they do is slug? It's because that's all they can do.
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Freddy has an add-on that does just that. Not the deafening part, but simply making survivors' injured noises louder as an add-on. 🤦♀️
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Probably not. Once the devs think they have a good idea, they just push it through every time, even when it's nonsensical. Why are breakable walls a survivors sided mechanic? How does that even happen?
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@RakimSockem said:
So you want things added into the game with no drawbacks??? I'm so confused about your argument here. Freddy should be able to teleport to gens over and over with no cooldown because drawbacks bad?
The old insta-heal syringe should come back because "drawbacks bad" and "why does it need a timer"
In fact, why can artist only put up 3 crows. That's a drawback. We should allow her to just infinitely spam crows in a full circle and launch them everywhere including up or down for multi-layered levels.
And then let's also go back to the DBD dark ages when exhaustion recovered while you were running because why should my Lithe have the downside of me having to stand still to get it back.
Drawbacks are an essential part of balancing to keep a mechanic (whether it be a perk, an add on, or a killer power itself) in check, You starting saying crazy things like "nothing should have drawbacks" and literally everything will become OP
I'm mostly wanting things on the killer side to not have drawbacks because I feel there's no need for drawbacks on certain things. I'm not saying we shouldn't have drawbacks on anything, but I'm afraid we're gonna end up over-indulging in using that for balancing. Of course Freddy and Artist shouldn't have infinite usability on those powers, but there's still parts of their powers that make no sense, like Freddy tapping a gen with his tp then cancelling and having a pretty long cooldown, or Artist physically not being able to hit a survivor with a consecutive crow volley before they wave the first one off just because she fired more than 1. Those call for qol changes so that those killers aren't punished so heavily just for trying to use their power.
You can't argue for things like instaheals coming back, because nobody, not even the craziest survivor mains, believes it's balanced to pick someone off the ground to full health in a split second. Killer has never had anything that impactful, not even NOED. Exhaustion recovering while running not only makes no sense, but it also makes those perks usable multiple times in a single chase, which would ruin the balance of the game, as survivors already win games off of just holding forward and/or Dead Harding at the end to extend the chase for another 30 seconds.
I never said drawbacks aren't necessary for certain things, but the things that I've mentioned that do have them, and the things that very biased people are suggesting we put drawbacks on... it's too much. You can't have a drawback so negative to the person using the killer or survivor that the upside fails to be meaningful as a result. It's why nobody uses Autodidact.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2917920#Comment_2917920
I strongly disagree that cooldowns are a "drawback", if that's the case than anything you do to balance an effect is a drawback. Cooldowns are just how often you can use it, something that it makes perfect sense to limit if the effect is particularly strong. Are there perks that don't deserve their cooldown? Yes, but it's case-by-case.
Moving on...
So we're on the same page about playstyle-defining drawbacks, but I still think drawbacks like Engineer's Fang and Pinky Finger are totally reasonable. Pinky Finger a little less so, I mostly think that addon is just badly designed in general and should be reworked alongside a total addon pass and basekit buffs since Clown is the worst killer in the game, but we can focus on others for now.
I think that idea of drawbacks is just an extension of playstyle-defining, and some of them are a test of skill- take Huntress' Iridescent Hatchet. What that addon is there to do is let you chew through survivors if you're confident in hitting every single hatchet. Is that an objectively strong, always useful addon that'll consistently help you win? No. Is it trying to be? I'd argue, also no. Engineer's Fang is similar. It asks, what value can you get from a ranged injure but dramatically less slowdown? Can you pair this with other tools to maximise its potential? If not, use other addons.
(Slightly stymied by Pinhead's addons not being very good, but that's its own problem.)
It's okay if not everything is a straight upgrade to help you win. Sometimes things in games exist to be fun, or to provide a unique challenge, or to alter the way you play for more variety. Obviously not every addon that comes with a downside fits any of these categories, but the fault lays with specific addon design, not the idea of giving drawbacks with upsides. Tons of games use this concept, it's really obviously fine.
But it's wrong for the majority of these perks and add-ons to be for casual enjoyment and uniqueness rather than balance, at least at this point in time in which the competitive landscape is so hindered by that kind of design. Unless you're extremely optimistic about the state of the game, or are just uninformed, you have to realize that there are exceedingly few options for you when you want to play killer optimally. You can either play best add-ons/perks Blight or best add-ons/perks Nurse, or be one of the extremely lucky outliers that can do well with Leatherface/Pyramid Head solely for their specialty in camping/tunneling. And for survivors it's similar. If you're time efficient with gens and run meta perks you're probably safe. There's exceptions where you come across the killer who wants to hard tunnel you or someone else when you don't have DS or BT, because they usually respect those perks and assume they're always in play, but generally your chances of escaping are quite high.
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@Megmain80 said:
how else would there be balance? Everything is a give and take, that’s how balancing works. Maybe you’ve never played against a pinky finger clown with 4 base bottles who is fairly decent at throwing them. The bottle slows your speed a great deal giving clown an easy insta-down. Why should that be a thing? Isn’t that unbalanced? It’s just an add-on, not even a perk or anything close to base-kit power.
I have played against pre-Nerf Pinky Finger. I'd either drop a pallet early, or risk getting instadowned. In one case, I dodged 4-6 bottles, but went down anyway after he reloaded, but that probably wasted as much of his time as a normal chase without Pinky Finger. You don't realize how hard it is to hit survivors directly with a bottle, even when they're slowed. Where other people used the 2 extra bottles add-on in combination with Pinky Finger, I used Fingerless Parade Gloves for the bottle travel speed. His bottles really feel slow and clunky without that add-on, so I give props to any Clown who can direct hit survivors with the bottle even once. And it's a pink add-on, so why shouldn't it be strong with such a difficult activation condition for the Exposed?
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
Question on title.
So i am seeing some people don't like this and they want this remove from DS. What do you think? Locker play should stay or go?
Well... For me it is fair. Survivor is not doing any objective in locker, so there is not reason to make DS deactivate. And killer has to eat DS early or leave. It punishes killer for tunnel. And plus you can bait killer without having DS (high risk).
I think it should deactivate. It's an abuse of the perk, allowing it to be used offensively. Yes, you can wait it out, but that's not an option. Yes, you can just leave the survivor to go do something else, but then they can get out an jump on a gen or something, unless you're suggesting the killer has time to play cat and mouse games to keep coming back to see if a survivor has touched a gen or not as they run back to the locker. There's just so much guesswork the killer has to do even in the best scenario of the survivor doing the locker exploit with DS, with the survivor simply having to exist to threaten the killer with DS, and usually they get away for free because the killer fears the DS.
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@randonly said:
I also think it's not bad to balance around dawbacks. Many games do this, such as the talents in Paladins (game) that change one part of the hero to maximize another, creating new ways to play
An off-topic question
speaking about dawbacks, one question, Julie's Mix Tape in post ptb changes will now suppress the loss of Legion's power after a stun (refilled). Will it be the new alchemist's ring addon for legion? I don't play legion, so I'm not sure if stunning actually makes him lose all his power, just like stunning the plague while corrupt purge is activated, makes her lose her power.
I believe that add-on would be more similar to Spirit's add-on where she gets her power back from being pallet stunned. I don't think it's gonna be a Legion's Alchemist's Ring, but I'm sure many will complain about it and call it such.
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@ThatOneDemoPlayer said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2917926#Comment_2917926
Rarity doesn't means they shouldn't be uncounterable. Alchemist Ring is not a QOL buff, it's a straight up counter deletion Add-on
How does Alchemist's Ring take away the counter to Blight's rush? If you can get somewhere where he literally can't rush or turn to hit you, that counters his rush. Literally nothing changes about that when playing against Alchemist's Ring. "But he catches up before I can get to a safe space!" Really? The crazy sprint burst you get isn't enough to at least get to somewhere playable? It's not like he can rush and down you before you can even finish your sprint burst.
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It's a questionable idea, using STBFL, just like it is on Nemesis. If you're using STBFL, you're not using Demogorgon's shred, but if you're not using his shred, you're missing out on a huge part of his power.
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@taah said:
The thing is, you get almost no emblem points when downing someone with a one-shotting power like a chainsaw or oni's dash and sometimes only black-pipping or even depipping. Getting punished for using the killers power really feels off and I think this is something that should get fixed / overworked.
Not just on the scoarboard but also in gameplay you're punished for using just about every killer's power.
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What were they thinking with this map?
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I got accused of having aimbot on Huntress because I did a good shot, while being on console btw.
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Probably Sprint Burst because it works against instadown killers and Overcome doesn't.
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There have been plenty of killer perks which haven't even been big enough to fail, and did, yet Dead Hard definitely needs to fail for the betterment of the game's future, but won't
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Make TVs actually face the gens, they should stay turned off for less time, and you should not slow down at all when going in and out of manifest/demanifest. That's the least they can do.
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Agreed. Where's the skill in getting tunneled?
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@ThatOneDemoPlayer said:
Having dawbacks isn't bad game design.
A lot of Perks/Add-ons have unnecessary drawbacks that hold them back, like Deer Lung and Jolt, but some have too little or no drawbacks, like Compound Thirty-Three, Alchemist Ring and Dead Hard
Yes but Compound 33 and Alchemist's Ring are pink and purple add-ons, and Alchemists Ring is a glorified qol change that doesn't really hurt the better survivors. Dead Hard's drawbacks ironically aren't enough to support how strong it is in any given scenario, because it gives i-frames which no other perk in the game does.