danielmaster87
danielmaster87
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@unholy1991 said:
tldr, but its probably better balanced than currently, which is a low bar.
No, this is how the game is balanced currently. This is the low bar. I'm surprised I'm the only one talking about how problematic this is.
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@GamerEzra said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2916347#Comment_2916347
Aura's are way to hard to see yes and I also feel like corn vision is way worse on the new coldwinds.
I haven't played the PTB so I don't know how dark the houses are on the new Haddonfield but I can't wait to play on it.
The corn has always been an awful feature of the farm maps. There's way too much of it, you can't see survivors or the killer, there's no loops or obstacles there, you can't stalk through it, and totems for some reason spawn in there.
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@jesterkind said:
Weighing upsides and downsides is actually quite good game design. It makes you consider whether you'll get enough value from the upside to overcome the downside, or whether you're comfortable changing your playstyle to even use the thing to begin with - something like Plague's Prayer Tablet clearly exists to alter your playstyle, not to have a strong effect that's balanced with a downside.
There are downsides that exist in this game that aren't particularly interesting, but that would be the problem. It's perfectly fine for an addon or even a perk to give you an upside and a downside, so you can weigh whether the tradeoff is worth it, if you can change your playstyle to accommodate the thing that's been made harder, and so on.
When it's done well, it's elevating decision making, and emphasising both choice and playstyle.
(Also, some of the things you've listed are just... cooldowns? Cooldowns aren't inherently a downside, they're just a regular balance decision.)
I think it's awful game design, at least from what I've seen in this game so far. Maybe an add-on or perk here or there that had a downside would be fine, but right now it's literally one of the leading ways that the devs and survivor mains want the game to be balanced through. It creates a false sense of choice and decision-making; you have to go through a few hoops to think otherwise. Why would you want to use a strong add-on with a big downside when you can just use a strong add-on?
You might say that if the downside only matters to one way of playing, which you aren't fully utilizing with your playstyle during the match, then maybe the downside isn't so bad. But in the case of Pinky Finger and Engineer's Fang, that's not the case. You want to be able to instadown AND have slowdown. You want to injure AND have anti-loop. But these add-ons make you have to choose, even though you can't really afford to get rid of anything from your power, as the whole reason you're using pink add-ons is because they're supposed to be the strongest thing to use to help you win.
And yes, I've listed cooldowns because they are limitations on the perks, drawbacks, and because people are requesting to increase those limitations further. Pop never should have been taken off 60 seconds. Now people are saying 45 seconds is too much. And the measly <45 seconds of blockage you get from Dead Man's Switch, they also want reduced. Even if Surge had no cooldown, would it really be that strong? How quick are these survivors going down to the killer, that a no-cooldown Surge would be OP? NOED is already a hex and can be destroyed, but it's been requested that you should have to complete additional conditions to activate it, or that there be a cooldown on its instadown capability after somebody's been instadowned, thus creating drawbacks that weren't there before. It's still feedback, not actually in-game, but we'll see how long that lasts.
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@Bladeisbest said:
Balancing with so many drawbacks unconsciously sucks a lot of opportunistic creativity out of the game.
It's a blue balling thing. "Oh wow, this add-on sounds awesome!" *reads downside* "Aw, nevermind." Literally everyone's first reactions to these add-ons, except for those who are happy to see killer have such weak options.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/320202/balancing-with-drawbacks-is-a-bad-idea
I think drawbacks are used as discouragement of using the add-on. Its way of putting add-on in the game, but not making usable. Think of it like killer advertisement.
Let me three examples using billy add-ons
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/X33L2318FRDB/image.png
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/A3Y84W45D5XC/image.png
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/ERV7L5MB92AH/image.png
Clearly, they don't want you to use charge reduction add-ons for billy. You get the choice of being 110 m/s, forcing yourself to stun yourself to get a boost or the even more stupid one, forcing yourself to get flashlight blinded. Genius add-on design.
Exactly it's fake variety and fake choice. They're basically wasted as add-ons in those slots, especially considering their rarity. Either you won't use the add-ons, which I wouldn't (as a form of protest against them), or you do use them and feel bad for it because it feels like you're playing with a nerfed killer power/add-ons (which you are).
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@OpenX said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2917313#Comment_2917313
Adrenaline vial is friggin nuts. Easily my favorite add-on for him now. And it goes with everything else so well too.
C33 for stupid levels of chase, Vigo's for jumpscare blight, crow for outrageous speed, etc etc.
And I've gone over why those add-ons are fine without drawbacks due to their rarity. If we were to make all killers viable, instead of just Blight and Nurse, and those add-ons still stuck out like a sore thumb, then sure we can mess with them. But otherwise, their kind of strength is necessary for killer to pose an actual threat.
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@SuzuKR said:
Drawback balancing isn’t inherently bad, it leads to fun stuff like Plague’s add-on that trades direct infection for object infection playstyle, or other similar heavy down+up side.
Well that Plague add-on and others like it are an exception simply because they're joke add-ons. They're supposed to have a dumb downside in exchange for more bp. Why do they exist? Who knows? Maybe the devs think they're being funny. What's next, a Huntress add-on where her hatchets can't injure?
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@Tiufal said:
You already disqualified yourself after saying Adrenaline Vial is fine.
If your analysis, of how strong Adrenaline Vial is, takes into account the turning and flick exploits that PC Blights use, yours is disqualified as well. We have to look at add-ons at their intended level of strength.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
While I don’t think drawbacks are inherently a bad idea, I will agree that some things have drawbacks which are not necessary. The downsides on Last Will and Deer Lung for instance could be removed. Surge also shouldn’t require a basic attack.
That all said, what would be the point of Engineer’s Fang if it didn’t injure? That’s the whole point of it.
I know, right? But some people believe that, even if it's a pink rarity add-on, it shouldn't be able to injure you "because it changes the killer too much". Then you have to ask, "How much is too much?" Too much, in other words, making them viable when they weren't viable without it? That's my concern.
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@TragicSolitude said:
Drawbacks as a means of balancing isn't surprising. With add-ons, I think it's often meant to encourage the player to change playstyles.
What I really hate are clunky controls used as a means of balancing. Those really suck the fun out of a killer. There are a lot of killers I just can't enjoy playing (which means I don't play them, doesn't matter how strong they are) because the controls feel so crappy.
Like Doctor, for example. Why is his shock so delayed? Why isn't his shock delay reduction add-ons base? You know people are just gonna run those every time anyway.
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Survivor adept is fine as is. Killers just need a 4k for adept, that's how it should be.
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But what about when we actually do try and care about winning and we use meta? Isn't that sweaty, when we're doing that and can't win or barely win because of how strong the survivors are?
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He's good because he guarantees a kill off 1 down. Doesn't mean he's as good as Nurse or Blight when you actually try to play him normally. But his camping is hugely problematic. Fear is good, because survivors are never scared of the killer, but it's OP what he can do when he's near the hook.
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@Marigoria said:
I'm sorry but are you implying that Nurse and Blight and even a few others are hopeless compared to Bubba?
In terms of camping power, yes.
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If you're not using killer meta perks then you haven't tried everything. Not saying that those perks will win you the game alone, or that SWF or survivor in general isn't OP, but you have to at least try using the strongest stuff before you talk about this stuff.
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@woodenEnthusiasm said:
Forewarning this is directly inspired by Tofu's latest video on mmr and the meta I highly recommend you watch it. But we as a community need speak up and let the devs understand almost all of our problems with the game stem from the meta. This extends to the comp scene too. The game is balanced you can look at the cursed tournament where everything was allowed and the games remained even. Comp players ban perks because they're unfun which should indicate just how unfun these perks are. Even the devs acknowledge it in their mmr update post. They talk about players of higher skill wanting more variety and not to run meta.
From the killers perspective the meta of dead hard, unbreakable, ds, medkits, boon: CoH, bt are all not just strong but unfun. it isn't fun to lose to a perk it feels like you're losing to game design more than to a player's skill. It doesn't matter how much perks are buffed because unless they're buffed to insane levels like Boil Over was they just won't be used by players who want to win and even if perks are buffed to that level just as we saw with Boil Over it just isn't a good idea.
From the survivor perspective slowdown, noed, and camping and tunneling need to be addressed. Why would a killer ever run anything but 3-4 slowdowns and maybe noed? There's nothing more deflating than watching a gen lose 15%-50% progress then get blocked for 45 seconds. or watching a survivor get tunneled out 3 minutes in. Or even camped for the full 2 minutes
Obviously game design changes to discourage camping and tunneling will take much more work than shaking up the perks but we as a community need to keep bringing it up politely to the devs. We all need to be asking the devs when will the meta be nerfed on every post, every dev update, and every survey. Until they understand this needs to be priority 1 or else we're just going to get band-aid fix after band-aid fix for the symptoms instead of the cause.
The thing is that the killer meta never needs nerfing and the survivor meta always needs nerfing. Sorry, I said it.
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@StarLost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/320162/the-killer-perk-meta-is-pretty-balanced
You can also add Pop, CoB, STBFL, BBQ, FoR, HG, MYC, Devour, Plaything, Pentimento, Retribution, Thana and probably a few others I'm forgetting. I think the killer meta is better than it's ever been.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2916677#Comment_2916677
Here's the problem with the survivor meta.
'Tier' is relative.
Survivors have a lot of good perks, and a few that are so strong that not using them is almost playing the game wrong.
DH and CoH are probably the best examples. BT and DS are also crazy strong, but are sort of required to be strong.
There are plenty of other great survivor perks, but they are just overshadowed by the power of ridiculously fast teamwide heals and a third health state.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2916682#Comment_2916682
I'm...not sure if you understand what that means.
Both sides have experienced a lot of buffs as of late (DH 'fix', CoH on the survivor end).
The handful of nerfs doled out were mostly because the stuff nerfed was straight up unhealthy for the game (keys, BO, OoO).
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2916759#Comment_2916759
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2916770#Comment_2916770
Because SC has been quietly broken for years now, it's just not as visibly impactful as DH and CoH.
It shouldn't blind counter Myers for starters.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2916773#Comment_2916773
When there are a sufficient number of feedback criticisms about an aspect of your game, it definitely demonstrates that a lot of people are frustrated by that aspect.
Spine Chill is fine. It's the only way to counter annoying af Scratched Mirror.
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Corrupt, Deadlock, and No Way Out are viable. All of those other perks require survivors to gift the killer easy pressure. No reason for them to give that many downs or hooks before the game is over, which is what you see at the mid-high MMR level, not the true high MMR level. You do see a variety of perks, but not at the level that matters.
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Nothing is wrong with Spine Chill. It serves its purpose.
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@GentlemanFridge said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2916434#Comment_2916434
Except that this doesn’t hold up when the grade reset happens.
Well people are uneducated on that in the same way they're uneducated on how grades and matchmaking work. They should know that if their grade got reset, everyone else got theirs reset too. Why would they think it's smurfing after we just had a grade reset, unless they're that clueless? Not exactly the kinds of people we should be making balance, matchmaking, or qol changes around.
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People like to parody the warning (or the threat, depending on who you talk to) that killers have, which is, "Killers are required for there to be lobbies and good queue times, so maybe we should not be driving them away and be more appreciative, and give them a reason to stay so the game doesn't die?" They liken the killers who say that to people who ask for respect but won't give it, or that they owe killers something just for playing with them. In reality, the scenario that comes from that (which again is made fun of, mostly by survivor mains) is a very real one, that if enough killers leave and the queue times get too long, the game could die. It's the truth: you cannot have DBD matches without a killer. And as far as I'm concerned there is almost no reason to play killer right now. The best I can come up with is that DBD noob mindset of, "I'm so excited to play this new game I got, because I get to play as Demogorgon and Ghost Face and all these horror icons I like." That quickly fades as the survivors they'll be going against literally can't be beat, mostly because they're unskilled killers at that point, but also because even if they are skilled the gens will overrule them. Nobody wants to keep playing a game they can't win, or that doesn't reward skill, or that is so stressful that winning doesn't even feel satisfying anymore.
But yes, this is exactly what we'll see as more killers leave. There will be fully prepared SWFs going against baby killers because nobody else was there to play killer at their level, because everyone quit. When those baby killers see the futility of it all, they'll switch to survivor or leave as well. The death of the game is not an exaggeration; it's a real threat.
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Hiding the grades was just a dumb idea. If the MMR system has no relevance to grades, why hide them? All it does is it takes away the ability to see the overall playtime of teammates and opponents. And that can be a big determining factor on if they were trying to smurf, or you were going against an opponent with high playtime or low playtime, or if you really should have lost to that team/killer considering a bunch of factors including the grades.
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Your different killers are supposed to have their own MMR, but because the system includes a stupid rule that the lowest MMR killer can't be that much further down in MMR from your other killers, you don't really feel that different killer/different MMR feature. That rule was put in because boohoo, "people will just smurf otherwise", which is an example of balancing off the worst possible, and least likely, scenario. I have never had the idea to try and smurf by abusing the MMR difference in my killers.
I have no interest in playing Nurse right now, because I'm focused on playing Blight and Artist. If we were to switch from those killers to Nurse, I would be forced to play against survivors who are far above my skill level with Nurse, simply because I'm good with other killers, which in turn denies me the chance to learn with Nurse because I'll lose too fast. And when my MMR goes down a ton with her, it will drag down the MMR of my other killers as well, so when I switch back to them I'll crush the survivors because I'll be far above their skill level.
The "all your killers must be locked into a similar MMR" rule has caused far more problems than it supposedly solves. And it was a change that was aimed to foil the supposed schemes of the high MMR people, which is another example of the devs' flip flops on balancing for low or high MMR.
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I've tried to do this so many times to avoid a pallet stun or a flashlight save, and I couldn't do it because the game wouldn't let me. I made the right play, but the game held me back.
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The new maps are always visually fine, with 2 exceptions:
1) Auras are hard to see on new Coldwind maps.
2) The new Haddonfield maps are too dark inside the houses.
Who cares if the map is in daylight? It's not even like a normal-looking, natural lighting. It still looks eerie.
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@humanbeing1704 said:
Thank hell they removed it draining slug bars was such a unnecessary buff to slugging
Not a buff. Just something annoying to deal with.
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@ImAJoke264 said:
How would you feel if Killers like Trickster get there own maps? Already existing killers getting maps instead of them coming out with map when a new killer or survivor comes out?
It's a good idea, and if this could apply to licensed chapters as well, that would only sweeten the deal and make people want to buy those chapters more.
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The killer 99% of the time deserves the 4k at that point anyway, but you're lucky to have hatch as that second chance to escape. Why then should the killer be denied the ability to slug for the 4k, which he deserves anyway, when that's the only strategy he can use to prevent a hatch escape in the first place?
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@InvadeGames said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2914536#Comment_2914536
i mean, you dont have time to play loop the pallet on each of the 20 loop spots per map
But it wastes too much time to break even one of them. So you have to only break the god pallets basically.
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@WesCravenFan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2914775#Comment_2914775
The only OP perks in the game are Dead Hard and Iron Will anyway.
I'd say there's more than that, but preach.
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@ThatOneDemoPlayer said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2914831#Comment_2914831
Damn, you've lied to yourself for so long you can't see the truth. I feel bad for you
That'll do it. No need to go so hard on him.
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@Tiufal said:
CoH is fine. Stop crying about healing everytime.
Nobody was "crying" about healing until CoH came out. We complained that it was even possible that you could have a build where you healed yourself in like 7 seconds, but we didn't act like that was prevalent or anything. We also thought it was stupid that medkits were almost always used to heal yourself and not others. But nobody was saying "heals are too quick."
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@OpenX said:
I could see that. Unfortunately DBD has returned to being pallet town over the last few map releases. Big maps that are extremely pallet dense, but now the strongest killers hit over every pallet anyways.
If you are playing one of the weaker killers who can't hit over god pallets, good luck these days unless you are willing to devote a ton of time to gitting gud.
The games progression has gone from pallet town ---> deadzone by daylight ---> back to pallet town
Git gud in this game, for killer, is just losing until you get weaker survivors, and then you win.
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@WesCravenFan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2914754#Comment_2914754
Again, you are taking those conclusions OUT OF ORDER.
The game is unbalanced, so as a RESULT they derank.
I understand why they de-rank: because the game's unbalanced. But what I don't understand is why they'll, for example, be unsuccessful with a perk at high rank (the most accurate place to get balance data from), then de-rank to where they're facing worse opponents, and then they crush using that same perk, and from there they go on to say the perk is strong or OP. It's the dishonesty when speaking on balance issues that is the problem, not because they simply de-ranked. And this is common practice, so you can see why we think it's bad and it's out of control.
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You're lucky you're hearing a difference in music at all. Before, you were just guessing what add-ons Legion had based on how long they were frenzying, which you didn't even catch all of it so how would you know anyway? And to be fair, you're not supposed to know what add-ons the killer is using; you simply figure them out through the information you're given.
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@WesCravenFan said:
Did it ever dawn on you that those same people play like that BECAUSE the game is unbalanced?
We're not talking about the way that they play. We're talking about them going against lower skill people intentionally, and then acting like they can base their takes on game balance off of their clearly skewed results. And when those people are in positions of influence, that's wrong and that's dangerous for the game's future.
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It's like they don't realize that not caring if you lose, losing multiple times to go down in MMR, and then facing babies is what causes them to have such an easy fun time. Of course you're gonna be able to beat survivors or killers while using whatever perks when you're playing people below your skill level.
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@jesterkind said:
The game saw a gigantic spike in players during the Resident Evil chapter, leading to an all-time-high of players that slowly started to trickle away because a lot of the time people just don't really stick with new games for all that long.
If you're worried about the game's overall health, you'd have to check the numbers from the last 30 days compared to the same time last year, not only six months ago. That's a better indication of how the game's doing, since those numbers would go far enough back not to be affected by the Resident Evil chapter.
You really think the Resident Evil chapter created that much of a high, that losing thousands of players every month over the course of the next year is simply returning the playerbase to normal numbers?
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@Starrseed said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2914561#Comment_2914561
It was requested before. Every time someone made the mistake and got corrected in the forum everyone said just remove it when so many people are confused
I didn't see it.
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@Piruluk said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2914568#Comment_2914568
But tournaments aren't valid because they have restrictions how to play which perks and addons allowed, lot of those are banned. In real game a killer player can play however they want, so tournaments should be free for all to be used as an example
Yes but the survivor perks are restricted as well, and they consistently win against the best killers, so how does that not reflect how strong they can be in actual matches, with everyone having DS, BT, and Unbreakable?
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I can't think of any buff that the devs would acutally do that would make Crowd Control OP.
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@Piruluk said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2914551#Comment_2914551
He is too strong outside of 4 stack SWF
But still its rare sight so personally I don't mind Pinhead yet
Oh come on. The guy can hit you 5 times with his power and you don't get hit. What other killer is that weak? Even with Engineer's Fang, he's just a worse Legion.
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@Piruluk said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2914557#Comment_2914557
Dowsey had like 200+ 4k win in a row with twins before nerf. So best to leave twins gutted
I can confidently say that at least half of those teams played awful. Twins are awful to play, so anybody that does really good with them has to being against beyond chill survivors on average. I'm sure many of his matches were close; not denying that. Probably getting that last kill as the exits were already open and stuff like that. But 200+ win streak isn't indicative of the killer being OP, it's indicative of the killer getting bad teams repeatedly. Notice how Twins are almost never used in tournament. Clearly the survivors aren't on that level, but neither are they even close to that level, and survivors far below the tournament level are able to consistently escape simple based on gen speed. So in conclusion, that Dowsey streak doesn't prove a thing.
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@Mandy said:
Removing Grades from the end screen has been one of the most requested things from the Community.
A lot of the community believed that grades = MMR which it clearly does not, Grades are pretty much only a representative of time played that month and nothing else.
It does not affect matchmaking in the slightest.
The matchmaking changes that were implemented will affect a very small portion of the players - those at the very peak off MMR.
It was never highly requested prior to it being introduced. I think it's a simple case of groupthink.
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No, this game's community is the most toxic ever.
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It and the speed increase need to be basekit. We are tired of having survivors loop us, as Victor, around a single tree or obstacle. It is an insulting killer design made for survivors to be entertained.
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@Steel_Eyed said:
The meta has changed. We actually asked for it. It’s going to be a thing. Adapt. Overcome.
Circle of Healing, in my opinion, had two options. Reduce the healing benefit, or remove the self care option. You can see which one they’ve chosen.
They've chosen both. You get self-healing AND get a speed boost to healing teammates. A fair healing boost for the whole team would be like 15%. 50% is crazy. 100% is freaking ridiculous, and that's how the perk was released!
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Yes but is he strong or are you and/or your teammates just bad?
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Blight. You just never know how his power's gonna work. Sometimes he slides on something, sometimes he bumps, and sometimes it looks like he's gonna bump but he inescapably slides into the wall and goes into fatigue.
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Try to break as few as possible. You literally don't have enough time to kick one.