cogsturning
cogsturning
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@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4099977#Comment_4099977
Dracula,the lich I had almost all wins too wonder why? Strong killers with many abilities to counter many powers from survivors plus poison makes them very potent yet I bet you had good match with event reduced mmr (in events like this devs many times stated mmr is turned off or totaly loose compare to regular mode).
I played both roles and I know what swf even just single duo could do in that event and killers you mentioned yeah clown is one of best in antiloop since he came what is it 2018 or 2017 so no wonder he can do good when he slows you naturaly with gas and that with poison is even more leathal because compare to cenobite who makes survivor walk thus reducing the poison effectiveness to minimum the clowns hinder even when slows survivor still runs and poison works with that.
Unbreakable loops yeah try normal shack with killer who has no powers that can work there (dracula deffinitely has powers to fight that) or some god loops and even with billy,bubba or mayers you are done there. Invisibility another bs that could be spawn and only fool wouldnt get lost from the chase and killer with it, survivors had many tools and kept them longer and killers only action to fight that was use poison and win chases fast to counter that thats why swfts went to rush because if you rushed fast 4 gens and waste killers time a lot with cakes and table powers you could keep lot of resources when you lost these powers and killer only got chance to have 20 seconds of lightborn or endurence (what a super strong effects).
Any competent team could win games that would normaly loose there but not every killer could do so unless the killer that was used had abilities that could fight the cakes and table powers like henry,nurse against invincibility with unbreakable pallets.
Totaly busted event not to mention number of bugs and many thoughless things.
I don't know where this thing about MMR not existing in events came from but it's been stated multiple times that it does exist, it just doesn't change during the event:
It wasn't a bunch of low MMR babies in my lobbies. These were the sweatiest three weeks of matches I've ever played.
So you didn't mention Clown, whose generally considered low tier, in your cheese list but now he's suddenly strong. I only ever used the poison on items anyway. I played normal.
People did the thing where they made shack impenetrable to me too. You know what I did? Left. Get rid of the table setter and your problems are solved. You just have to think. The invisibility was very loud. It was easy to injure or down people while they were using it. The invincibility was easy to wait out. Most of these things were pretty mid and overstressed by killers.
Any competent team can win? Then what does competence look like when I won almost all my killer matches against very aggressive and coordinated players at the same general matchmaking level as me?
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@ForTheEntity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4099943#Comment_4099943
Low tier killers being weak is a problem in 1v4 and the event just made it even worse. It should not be possible to lock Ghostface near Gideon Meat Plant's basement for an extended period as was possible during the Black Banquet.
You didn't take issue on points about the visual and event bloodpoints, so it seems like you can't defend the Black Banquet being good on those fronts.
You seem to be confusing non-anniversary events with anniversary events. I played during past anniversaries and players, both killers and survivors, were constantly interacting with the Pillars because they either wanted the cosmetics they granted or the ability to use event powers. It is in Haunted by Daylight and Bone Chill where players more often ignored event mechanics.
I'll bring up more points about how past anniversaries were better:
- Interacting with the game in the match to earn cosmetics. During the 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th anniversaries we had to collect crowns/invitations in the matches to get our cosmetics. Granted they gave away all the crowns with a single code later on, but collecting the crowns at the time was a fun challenge. This year most people had all the cosmetics on day 2 and there were zero in game interactions to get them.
- Event Tomes. The 6th & 7th anniversaries had tomes players had to actually get through to earn the cosmetics and the 8th anniversary was similar but instead you earned trinkets the event currency with which you bought the cosmetics with. Say what you will about the old tome system, but it certainly was more interesting and interactive than the quest system we have now where you can ignore it completely and still get everything.
- The Bag of Tryks mechanic used in the was something I rather enjoyed in 8th and 9th anniversaries, the chaos was much better than the survivor controlled mechanic of the Black Banquet.
- During the 8th and 9th anniversaries killers actually had to collect invitations from Masquerade Pillars to use their event abilities rather than just passively gaining poison.
- Love her or hate her, we got the mascot Tryks during the 8th and 9th anniversaries.
It's hard for me to look at the Black Banquet and think it was good. It was meh, especially for how hard it was hyped.
Points and visuals have nothing to do with gameplay. I don't really care if the exit gate has garland or the basement has Christmas trees. I have nothing to say about it because I don't care about it. You brought it up because you care.
I'm comparing it to all events. Yes people interacted with the invitations. It was pretty easy to do so unlike, say, making a void crystal. But I can't say I saw a lot of people singing the praises of the masquerade either. Of course now they will, because it's gone.
Cosmetics have been given through event progress for awhile. In-game acquiring hasn't happened in the masquerade for years, and it's still irrelevant to gameplay. We still got two cosmetics related to the event and two that were just dropped in our inboxes. It seems like you just don't like that the game has changed some things like tomes which is fine, but it's still irrelevant to gameplay.
The only point you really have is that killers got their ability by interacting instead of passively gaining and yes, that should change for next time.
- Interacting with the game in the match to earn cosmetics. During the 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th anniversaries we had to collect crowns/invitations in the matches to get our cosmetics. Granted they gave away all the crowns with a single code later on, but collecting the crowns at the time was a fun challenge. This year most people had all the cosmetics on day 2 and there were zero in game interactions to get them.
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@Wiccamanplays said:
Spinning this event as a good thing is a bit like a your house burning down and trying to see it as an opportunity to redecorate.
People complain all the time about staleness and the boring meta and survivors needing a slowdown objective. Well, here's the shake up—and it's all complaints again. They can't even try a different idea without everyone being mad on day one. Was it perfect? No. But it was a good test for different ideas and was a nice chaotic change with both sides having busted stuff.
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@Abbzy said:
Worst event so far just the right one that pressed one side to sweat to have chance to win and other naturaly sweated too then any other event we had so far.
Effects were nice idea but the exetution and how ridicilous some table and cart spawns were so just one survivor could put donw a table in less than a minute and how some effects were broken so only killers that could match it were just ones that instadown,deep wound or cause broken effect like bubba,billy,mayers,legion,plague just showed how "well done" this event was.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/WUWCMR6T7PCJ/381210-44.jpg
Heres another proof how some tables were busted and if just you got swf and played killer who couldnt deal with certain effects like bubba with ubreakable pallets then it was gg.
Killers just needed to do what they're always telling survivors to do—adapt. I didn't play any of the killers you mentioned and ended the event with a 75% KR on Clown and an 80% on Dracula, and i barely even used the poison. These effects were very manageable and often easy to exploit if you took time to think about it. If people are hiding in loops with unbreakable pallets or running at you with invincibility then they aren't doing gens. All the toys in the world won't win them the match if that one thing doesn't get the focus.
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@leafyboi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4087478#Comment_4087478
"learn to loop" as if console doesn't have better movement than KBM. Looping on console is so much easier cause you aren't limited to 8 directions and can hug everything so much tighter. The only downsides to playing on console is no chat and some QOL stuff that comes without access to a mouse. Yes i know bindings can be an issue but im pretty sure you can rebind. I play on both console and KBM and killer is easier on KBM survivor is easier on roller. "You always have to try harder than your opponents" is just wrong on so many fundamental levels. Trying to win is quite literally the entire point, yes i know its casual but still thats the objective, and not going to lie pregame i see 3 console teammates i already know match is gonna be rough 95% of the time. This is just the playerbase console players just dont play enough or care about improving. My impressions of majority console players is that they dont seek to improve their gameplay they are content being bad in their own world. Which if that is what makes yall heppy, then do it but stop complaining when yall get stereotyped about being bad.
I think you're confusing the words console and controller. You can use kbm on console and controller on PC. Consoles are limited in their performance. They're also all different in those performances. A PS Pro and a Switch 1 aren't the same. But neither have anything on a great a PC.
You really can't tell me the camera controls with joysticks are better than a mouse though. It's night and day.
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@ForTheEntity said:
They announced before the 9th anniversary that it was the last Masquerade so they've had a long time to work on the Black Banquet. They generated insane hype for the 10th anniversary. They underdelivered.
I don't see the points made in the OP as anything new.
All events change the gameplay loop in some fashion. I wouldn't call the Banquet tables a second objective at all since it was entirely optional. Many players completely ignored them and just used the morsels, unless a cart was right next to a table in which case it got abused. Carts were abundant enough that survivors didn't have to go out of their way very much to grab a morsel.
It got players to play different killers in a negative way. If you didn't select killers who could play well around event elements such as the unbreakable pallets, you got punished. It basically cut off the bottom half of the killer tier list with a few exceptions.
The event was poorly decorated. Aside from the bright red the event's color palette failed to stand out. Hooks and lockers had bland, easy-to-miss decorations. Barrels were undecorated and extinguished. Were the gates even decorated? Certain maps had some interestingly decorated central areas and some maps could spawn the Banquet Tile, but it was all just the same tables, chairs, bottles of Bububbles and stacks of dirty dishes copied and pasted over and over. Compared to the unmissable garish blue and silver decorations of the Masquerade and the spinning figurines it had, the Banquet is entirely forgettable visually. This goes for the event cosmetics as well.
The bloodpoints scored for doing the event were pathetic. Only completing a Banquet Payoff scored 2500 and every other score was 200-300 and many of those had limits, you could only score for eating dessert 8 or 10 times. On top of that, the small amount of event points you did score wasn't multiplied by Tortes and other multipliers.
This event is a good thing for BHVR because it lowers the expectations of all the newer players that joined with Jason's chapter. These newer players are being conditioned to expect less. How dare those of us who remember better times have high expectations.
If you didn't select killers who could play well around event elements such as the unbreakable pallets, you got punished.
This is the exact same thing people say about 1v4 constantly. It's always going to be that way with so many killer kits and so much power creep, this just had a different balance shift from the normal self imposed limitations.
I sure don't have your memory of other events being great. Most of them people just play like normal. At least the banquet had players constantly engaging with the event elements. This one had more going on than any of the previous ones with three distinct versions and the way they designed the dishes means it'll probably change every time, which would be very refreshing.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4099712#Comment_4099712
Sidenote... there actually is survivor equivalent, lol. We have several skins that change the character and thus voicelines. Michonne for example has a Maggie skin, Dustin has an Eddie skin, ect. Thats very similar to what's happening here with an Anna skin that stops being Anna.
Survivors are all the same though, gameplay-wise. The quietest survivor is already available without paying if that's what someone wants. Nurse is the strongest killer and free, but if I like Huntress, I can pay to have this specific killer's kit in a more advantageous form. If they wanted to change the killer to be quieter overall then cool, but there's a high paywall for stealth in this case. That's just gross, and we'll now have people jumping on the skin for the wrong reasons.
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Supoosedly you have a base MMR and then individual killer MMR. So if you have a pretty steady above average KR you'll likely have a fairly high base, which can make picking up killers you don't know hard. I try a new-to-me killer and the survivors all know the power back to front and I'm just clueless. It makes me hesitant to try any killer that's been out awhile but that I don't already have a grip on.
What were the survivors' builds?
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It's been about two weeks or so that this is been happening. It's only page one too. If the post has multiple pages the others will all work fine. In addition to the p1 trick, someone's comment, pulled up through a search or on their profile, will also take you to the correct page.
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@dangersmymidd1ename said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4099687#Comment_4099687
Vecna 2/Henry has to be one of the worst designed killers in the game. There is hardly any skill needed, just spam M2 until you win. I can't imagine many survivors enjoy playing against him.
I have 150 hours on Henry. I've never had so many 0-3 hook endgames on any other killer. Good survivors can thrash an average Henry. He's extremely juicable.
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The number one reason I think it should be added is because, as you said, some people already have it. Even my TV has a customizable cross hair option. There's no reson they should let so many people have something others don't when it's fairly easy to add in and yeah, is already available as an add-on for many killers, so is clearly not a problem.
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It's kind of hard in a game where killers have such drastically different kits on such drastically different maps with such random matchmaking on top. Some killers also work way better on kbm than controller, and a higher skill floor will make that worse. I don't have any trouble on controller with shooters but ranged killers are mostly not worth the learning curve for me in dbd.
I agree about Deathslinger being top in skill expression though. I actually just don't think the average person wants to express skill. If they did, Ghoul wouldn't be so popular. My problem isn't so much that the game is all over the place, it's the high value a lot of killer players place on winning in a game that's as inconsistent as it is.
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@Wyndsor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/470007/why-the-black-banquet-was-a-good-thing
I agree, it was very refreshing being able to play something new, I also appreciated having counters to more unsavory strategies and gameplay. I'm going to miss the event for sure.
However, when people say they want 'secondary objectives' they really just mean a survivor nerf that allows them to secure more kills when tunneling/camping. It has nothing to do with bettering the survivor experience by giving a high-risk high-reward bonus goal.This event has made me realize killers have no idea what they want. There are constant complaints about stealth, prerunning, and gen jockeying being uninteracrtive, but then there are complaints about survivors not being afraid of killers and about sabo squads or Head On players. There's pretty much nothing left if you don't like any of that. There's no version of this game where survivors don't do gens and just get chased until they die every match.
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@Shroompy said:
Imo the event it self definitely fell flat but its probably the most ambitious theyve ever been with the effects and that I can give them credit for, even if they were a little overtuned. The main issue I had with the event is killers not having nearly as many interesting things to work with than survivors
I'm hopeful killer will get more next year if the event returns, without it being as obnoxious as remote pallet breaks and remote hooking. Since it's different dishes, it'd be great to have totally different ideas each year.
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@ShanoaLegendaryPlz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4099590#Comment_4099590
Your henry experience with the event was what i got on dracula since his mmr is much higher for me lol full swf bully squads back to back portals 100% of the matches. But i have had some of the sweatiest matches ive ever seen in this game trying to use henry consistently. One was even 40 minutes with over 10 team heals and had to drop like 30 chases because they kept vanishing, portaling, and on the dessert map where you cant see the grass move lol eventualy got 3k and other guy got to the hatch just before i could fire the final shot lol.
As for why i do well with skull merchant, shes another of my p100 mains that i use primarily for on/off stealth and im pretty decent with that playstyle. Even with spamako i can often win without teleporting to a tv the whole round lol (cuz i don't like killing through condemned and spamming the tvs).
I'll certainly be playing other games until the next rift hits, then its back to doing dailies.
To be fair I'd probably manage with Henry now. The first impression was just bad. It's a good thing though, to get me to play someone else.
These are the sweatiest matches I've ever played in succession. Almost every single match is body blocking with invincibility, sabo boxes, and flashlights. The ironic thing is the food has given survivors that secondary objective killers are always asking for, but i guess they dont like it when it's not just passive slowdown.
I've mostly found success in exploiting the aggression and putting my own aggression up to 10. I'm going to have remeber how to dial it back when this is over. And yeah, long as hell matches too. I had one match where a table busser kept creating the unbreakable pallets and anyone in chase just ran to shack and there was literally nothing I could do. I could never break the pallet because they would just keep waiting tables until I left, and then the pallet would get resest. I eventually won the match by getting the waiter out. I've also had a bunch of matches that are stomps but the last 2 people will just keep turning invisible and running to portals, then the other would instaheal them. These matches will go on for 20+ minutes with 4 or 5 gens up. If nothing else, its interesting how different it is from the regular loop.
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@vol4r said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4099573#Comment_4099573
I went against streamer with around 30 people on stream that was abusing doctor on the anniversary mode.
Doctor was bugging people out so that they couldn't do anything for the whole match, no healing, no gens etc.
I asked if he was aware of that bug and he said he was aware and "if devs didn't killswitch the killers this bug will not be bannable".
Later I checked his VOD and he only played doctor and abused that bug.Another gem in this community of skill expression lovers.
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@ShanoaLegendaryPlz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4099562#Comment_4099562
I've seen most of your comments about enjoying the event on killer lol, which killer(s) have you been using most?
I've been jumping between the first and skull merchant. Suprisingly easier on skull merchant. Tried dracula a few times and was like "nope". Even had a better time on Hag. Its like the weaker the killer, the less it struggles with the event. As survivor all u see are Leatherface/legion/plague
I did the absolute bare minimum of survivor in the event.
I'm surprised you haven't done well with Dracula. Dracula and Clown are who I've been using. I decided I wanted to keep track of my event stats separately so I chose a couple event-specific killers. I'm also trying to figure out who I want to p100 next and they were both in the running (along with Plague, but I didn't want to cheese). It's interesting that a very different crop of killers do well in this, solely because of the poison, which I legit forgot existed forthe last few days. I don't even use it anymore.
Funny thing, I've played almost no one but Henry since he came out. My first two matches in the event were as him. The second was a portal one. I dropped him immediately after that. Having people get off their gens and just stand by the portal, waiting for me to come out of undergate, was like my normal nightmare of dealing with waiting SBers but times 10. I just could not cope. I miss playing him though, but with the way the queues have been (and the way they'll be shooting up even more when the event ends) I don't know how much I'll get to play at all.
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@KingOfGhost said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4099560#Comment_4099560
The difference between completing three generators and completing 270 total generator charges is:
- Survivors can complete three generators and still have at least one additional generator close to completion.
- With the charge-based system, if the killer regresses a generator and the survivors’ total progress falls below 270 charges, the slowdown is removed until they reach the 270-charge threshold again.
Before you bring up the unrealistic scenario of survivors spreading 270 charges across all seven generators again, the worst realistic scenario for survivors would be completing one generator and spreading the remaining progress across three other generators. In that case, each of those three generators would have around 60 charges of progress.
The developers have made it clear that they are satisfied with the current matchmaking system and do not intend to change it. In an ideal version of Dead by Daylight, players would be able to choose between faster matchmaking and more skill-based matchmaking, but the developers will probably never add that option.
I am glad that you and your friend find value in keys. However, keys remain one of the least-picked and least-used survivor items in the game, and most players do not choose them.
Not sure where you got your info from but the MMR rework is still in the works. Mandy just mentioned it the other day.
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There's a reason it's a perk.
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He's overstuffed. He's five killers rolled into one and has power crept half the roster. OE's cooldown is too short, free haste makes 4.4 pointless, KI is excessive on a killer with that much free info, an add-on that gives free gen regress for existing is idiotic, and his ability to two tap you off-hook is egerious.
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@ShanoaLegendaryPlz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4099544#Comment_4099544
With the rate that i play survivor/killer, i tend to go for 200 cakes on survivors i occasionally play and 100 cakes on killers i occasionally play, then dump the rest on whoever the next "main" is.
I dunno if this is a great idea but ive started using a "cheaper cake" strategy where i take a character thats at bloodweb level 1, give them 1 cake, play with it, give them 1 more, play with that, and so on until they reach about bloodweb level 15, and then switch to the next bloodweb level 1 or finnish someone off thats about ti prestige. After a while of this the bloodpoints pile up and then you can blow the whole pile on whoever you are really trying to get the cakes on, without having to spend any of theirs to earn the points.
That's a good strategy for survivor. I'm mostly playing killer right now though, and don't want to play random ones, especially with how aggressive the event has been. I've been pretty lazy about it. I just get to a million and dump it into one of the characters I'm progressing. I don't use cakes as often on survivor either but there's nothing else I particularly want to bring into killer matches other than BP offerings.
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@KingOfGhost said:
I understand the point you are making and your concerns. The best addition I can make to the original idea is this: if one survivor dies before any other survivor has been hooked, all remaining survivors gain a 40% repair-speed bonus. Any stronger mechanic than that could probably be abused.
We both know that the developers do not have a good record when it comes to buffing or reworking weak killers. They gave Ghost Face only two additional seconds of his power, gave Doctor a 0.5-second improvement, and we are still waiting for the Skull Merchant rework.
The scenario you keep bringing up is unrealistic. No normal match will have 270 charges of generator progress evenly spread across all seven generators.
If all four survivors have reached two hook stages while five generators still remain, then matchmaking has once again done a terrible job by pairing weak survivors against a strong killer, or the survivors have made nothing but mistakes. In either case, matchmaking needs to change because it currently prioritizes finding matches quickly over creating fair matches.
Survivors need a comeback mechanic when only two of them remain. If they have not already completed three generators by themselves, they may still be able to finish the final generator.
However, when more than one generator remains and only two survivors are alive, they could play slowly and carefully. With the repair-speed bonus, they could complete a generator in around 64 seconds, even without any additional perks or items.
Survivors are at their strongest when all four are alive. When three remain, they lose some strength, but the match is still manageable. That is the reality, unless you are arguing that survivors automatically lose the moment one teammate dies.
Yes, you can bring a key and try to escape through the hatch, but neither you nor the other survivors normally enter a match expecting to lose and become the final survivor.
You bring a flashlight to make saves and possibly waste the killer’s time. You bring a toolbox to repair generators faster or sabotage hooks. You bring a med-kit to heal yourself. You are not going to choose a key over every other item simply because you might eventually need the hatch, and you know that.
When the developers increased pallet density, did they do it simply to make survivors win, or did they do it to give survivors more time to enjoy chases and participate in the match?
The slowdown I am proposing follows the same logic. It is not intended to guarantee killers a win. It is intended to give weaker killers more time to use their powers, participate in the match, and enjoy the game.
The fact is that within your idea is the possibility of two survivors on death hook with no gens done and the survivors getting debuffed. You seem unwilling to just say "at 3 gens done" and that feels pretty intentional. It also should be 3 gens done with no hooks, not 5 hooks. 5 hooks isn't a bad number to be at mid match. That's just normal mass progression.
If all four survivors have reached two hook stages while five generators still remain, then matchmaking has once again done a terrible job by pairing weak survivors against a strong killer, or the survivors have made nothing but mistakes.
Just got out of yet another match like this. One of the survivors had 6k hours so it wasnt a baby lobby but if the reason is "that's matchmaking" then why do you want global survivor debuffs in-match instead of better matchmaking? If the reason is "they made mistakes" well then, so did the killer in your scenario.
You are not going to choose a key over every other item simply because you might eventually need the hatch, and you know that.
Do I? Becuase I bring a key into my matches. It has multiple uses but it's a last ditch option as well. And one of my SWF mates can pick it up if I die. Between a key and a hatch offering we usually get someone out of hopeless matches.
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@Domicci said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4099461#Comment_4099461
go for it i loop well and run an unhook build so i expect it
Would you actually take the challenge from @Skittlesthehusky though? Cause I'd love to see it.
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Elodie has the most at 567. Wesker has 243. Dracula has 239 currently but I'm still grinding. He'll probably get the rest of my BP. I spread all mine out this year amongst 12 characters so I have about 100ish on a bunch of them.
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@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4099531#Comment_4099531
Nightlight is not accurate lol that's also been well established. I'm surprised people still refer to it tbh.
They'll continue to do so as long as it suits their narrative.
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@Brimstoneslinger said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4099279#Comment_4099279
In most recent dbd history killers got 5% kick regression against grab removal, anticamp, longer hookstates, longer bt and since you want to derail the topic with "amnesia" argument anti 3 gen is a basekit perk too, pallet density is still horrendous and borderline lose-lose double pallets are implemented at most maps now, the survivor ui is a basekit perk on its own too
I specifically excluded basekit bt from my argument to not waste time at pointless discussions about early dbd changes but here you are mentioning bloodlust and infinites as its somehow relevant to current tunnel situation, why not go further? lets add old mori/bnp to our arguments atp, the truth is that in last 3 years one side received 5% regression while other received 4 antihook and 1 anti gen perk basekit, surely killer is my favourite side but comparing another loadout at top of 4 perks to some map changes and old balance that was excluded by other early changes is deflection of initial point
surely killer is my favourite side
I'm so shocked by this revelation. I would have never guessed.
@ForTheEntity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4099530#Comment_4099530
And now the average kill rate is 49% across all killers according to Nightlight. So clearly the changes since 6.1.0 have been more advantageous to survivors.
Is your kill rate that low?
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This preserves the perk's intended role of protecting survivors from being tunneled shortly after an unhook
Can you show me where in the perks description it says the perks "intended role", or why its usage should be limited to a specific scenario?
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@Doctor_Xenomorph said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4099451#Comment_4099451
I personally have not met a single person who openly honestly admits that they view the survivor role as the designated loser and I do a good bit of SWF's in the discord
Well there's one right here in this thread for you.
Go through the current killer anxiety thread and you'll find two versions for survivor: people who queue up expecting the worst, and people who don't want to queue up because they expect the worst.
It's perfectly fine and probably way more healthy to expect the worst and hope for the best. It's better queuing up for either role expecting to lose and being okay with any outcome than expecting to win and being emotionally harmed when it doesn't happen.
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@Doctor_Xenomorph said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4099422#Comment_4099422
Well hold on now—you are right that lowering your goalposts can help reduce anxiety. Focusing on improving at one aspect of your gameplay instead of obsessing over the final result is generally good advice.
However, I think you're also unintentionally suggesting something else: that killers should simply expect to lose. When you say "stop playing to win" or "aim for 1 or 2 kills," it can come across as saying that a killer shouldn't realistically expect to succeed, but instead should enter the match assuming defeat because it's mentally easier.
that's NOT a healthy mindset either.
There's a difference between having process-oriented goals (landing more Huntress hatchets, improving at mindgames, learning a tile, etc.) and expecting to lose before the match even starts. The former helps you improve regardless of the outcome whilst generally accepting defeat, the latter quite literally risks becoming self-defeating.
If someone feels anxious before every Killer match, the issue probably isn't just that they care too much about winning. Anxiety usually comes from believing the outcome is largely outside your control - which sad to say, statistically (according to Nite Lite info on kill rates on various killers) often is to some degree(assuming the killer in question is of "average" skill capacity. If a player feels like they're constantly fighting uphill against opponents where every mistake is punished so heavily that they never have a realistic chance + taunted + ridiculed in the end-game-chat (sometimes w/ threats that go unbanned as is documented), then telling them to "just care less" doesn't really address why they're anxious in the first place. If anything, could perpetuate a growing belief amongst a growing number of people that the killer side is the "bad guys" - when in reality, it is a game and everyone *should be playing to have fun and ideally to win.
That doesn't necessarily mean the game is THAT unfair or that survivors have too much an inherent advantage (it is a 4v1 afterall). It could simply mean:
- The player is still developing their Killer fundamentals and hasn't built enough confidence yet.
- Their current MMR is placing them against opponents who feel overwhelming (as is VERY common, especially during time(s) when the survivors get extra BP bonus b/c of a lack of immediately ready players, often resulting in more experienced survivors facing lesser experienced killers).
- They're putting too much pressure on themselves to perform every match.
- Unrelated but they could be facing "subtle cheaters" which are *uncommon but far from the "rare" they used to be (if you don't believe me, you should do a quick google search on dbd cheats and you will be astonished at the sheer quantity of various cheats for the game for either side).
In those cases, the answer is to redefine what counts as success—not because you should expect to lose, but because improvement is a better long-term measure than a single match's result. You should still queue into a match believing you have a fair chance to win if you play well. Otherwise, the game starts feeling less like a competition and more like an exercise in damage control or a humiliation ritual, and that's not a particularly enjoyable mindset either.
However, I think you're also unintentionally suggesting something else: that killers should simply expect to lose. When you say "stop playing to win" or "aim for 1 or 2 kills," it can come across as saying that a killer shouldn't realistically expect to succeed, but instead should enter the match assuming defeat because it's mentally easier.
that's NOT a healthy mindset either.
Interesting considering expecting to lose is how a huge chunk of the player base view survivor.
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@KingOfGhost said:
I am fairly sure you did not read what I wrote, so let me clarify it.
The slowdown only activates if all three of the following conditions are met at the same time:
- The killer has fewer than five hooks.
- The survivors have completed a total of 270 generator charges.
- All four survivors are still alive.
If even one of those conditions is not met, there is no slowdown.
Additionally, every regression event applied to a generator reduces that generator’s slowdown by four percentage points. This means the slowdown becomes weaker over time as the killer attempts to defend the generators.
If a killer tunnels one survivor and completes five chases, the other survivors should still be able to complete roughly three to four generators’ worth of progress before that survivor dies. At that point, the remaining survivors should still have a strong chance of escaping.
This is not intended as a punishment for survivors. It is meant to help weaker killers catch up when the survivors are progressing too quickly.
The game is currently in a state where generators can be completed extremely fast. Survivors have many perks and items that increase repair efficiency. This slowdown would only help bridge the gap so both sides have enough time to participate in the match.
In my original post, I also gave survivors a comeback mechanic. It simply activates during a 2v1 rather than a 3v1.
What would you suggest instead? Would you give the killer a comeback mechanic during a 4v1 and then give survivors comeback mechanics during both a 3v1 and a 2v1? Or do you believe killers should not receive any comeback mechanic while survivors should receive one in both situations?
The claim that survivors have almost no comeback potential is false. Survivors can still win through strong chases. If a survivor reads the killer correctly and plays loops well, they can buy more than enough time for the team to escape.
The real problem is the sunk-cost mentality. When generators are completed quickly and the killer has already invested a large amount of time chasing one survivor who still has many resources available, the killer may feel forced to continue tunnelling that survivor to justify the time already spent.
However, if a mechanic reduces that pressure, the killer may be more willing to abandon the chase and pursue someone else. The purpose of this system is to help the average killer make that decision.
Bloodlust exists because of poor map design. You know that some loops require Bloodlust for many killers to have any realistic chance of catching the survivor. Even then, the killer immediately loses Bloodlust when they break a pallet or use most killer powers.
Blocked windows exist for a similar reason: to prevent infinite loops. If survivors had no limit on how many times they could vault the same window, certain loops would become impossible to counter, even with Bloodlust.
These are not comeback mechanics for killers. They are necessary systems that allow the game to function.
Let me make sure I understand your position on camping. If the killer remains near the general area of the hook, patrols nearby generators, watches the hook, or does anything else you consider camping, survivors still have several options.
They can coordinate a rescue and give the unhooked survivor time to reach the nearest loop. Alternatively, they can focus on generators and punish the killer for remaining near the hook.
Those options already exist in the current version of Dead by Daylight. However, I assume you do not consider them sufficient and would prefer the killer to be forcibly teleported away from the hook.
Under my proposed system, survivors could still make the same choices. Repairing generators while the slowdown is active would take longer, but they could still build significant progress. Once the slowdown deactivates, those generators could already be close to completion.
Again, players who enter a match intending to tunnel someone from five generators will always exist. You cannot completely prevent that behaviour without also punishing killers who are playing normally.
I agree with your final point. Some players enter a match intending to slug all four survivors while earning very few Bloodpoints, just as some survivor groups enter a match intending to bully the killer.
It is difficult to prevent either behaviour without negatively affecting normal players. The better approach is to provide meaningful rewards for not playing that way.
This is getting pretty repetitive. If a killer character is drasically weaker, they should be buffed or reworked. If a player is weaker, that should be addressed through matchmaking or through them improving. I didn't actually say I think survivors need a comeback system. All I've said is that killer already has a good chance to comeback as is and survivor doesn't. A smart killer isn't going to have a match in the bag and suddenly ego chase someone and lose. If all four survivors have 2 hooks at 5 gens up 3 or 4 are going to die. There's no coming back from that.
You're propsing a system that could give killers who have 5 hooks at possibly no gens done—which is a winning trajectory—some free slowdown. What I'd like you to tell me is what survivors in a similar situation get that's parallel to that, because you're only suggesting a true catch up for one side. If it's down to a 2v1 and there's at least two gens left the game is over even qirh a repair buff. I can already bring a key and try to get hatch for such a scenario. You're not improving anything about the game for survivors with the chance of a one out.
You're saying it's to give the killer more time to play but it isn't. It's to give them more time to win. You don't seem to care if survivors have a 5 min match when they lose, only when they win.
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Competitive gaming brings out the bad in a lot of people. I say some of those most vile, unhinged stuff that'd Id never say otherwise when I'm playing. It's why I stopped playing pvps for over a decade. I was the worst version of myself. People will attack whatever scrap they get and say whatever they think might sting. I've also had people mock my handle, in game and in the forum. I've had solo teammates attack me for having a killer badge. I've had people attack my hours, or my prestige status on both roles. And that's not even counting totally random insults that aren't using some visual aspect of my digital identity, like being called a bot. Literally anything they can get at they will attack. They're just angry and want other people to be upset too.
A lot of killers use SWF as a way to brush of their losses. Streamers in particular want to blame someone else because they're being watched. SWF is an easy boogeyman and scapegoat. I've played a lot of both and I do about the same stat-wise in both.
If you're worried about streamers just don't watch them. I went back and watched myself get stomped by momo on two occasions and haven't done that since. I didn't even make it to my death on the second one. I'd rather not see or hear it from the other perspective. If the chat really hurts your view of the game or makes you feel pressured, close it. Playing anon helps too.
Likewise, if one or two survivors are being toxic or BMing the killer, I'd rather see the killer deal with those specific players instead of taking their frustration out on everyone else.
Sadly a lot of killers seem to view survivors as a mass unit. I always make sure to remember people are individuals. If someone BMs me I'll BM them back, but I won't do it to anyone else. Even if they're partied up, friends don't control one another's actions.
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@THE4saknbacn said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4099396#Comment_4099396
I appreciate that! Idk I just play to have fun, maybe some of it is that I’m on console so I don’t have to hear endgame chat all the time but it’s just a game
As David Lee Roth said- “we’re here for a good time, not a long time”
Hyper-competitve players treat this game like a war and they often dominate the conversations. Keep that attitude of fun and and you'll be good. I'm also on console and didn't have any contact with this community until 1k hours in. The isolation was nice. I'm glad I've met some really cool people but otherwise I regret involving myself in the world outside of the game. They will just make you angry.
The end game chat is whatever if you don’t have thin skin. I actually love trash talking on it. But just like Xbox and PS players can restrict their messaging, PC players can close the chat. They just choose not to.
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It's so refreshing that you acknowledge that you're new. The forum always has a constant flow of angry new players who don't take any time to learn the game so they blame their issues on it while also thinking they're high MMR somehow. There are people obsessed with winning who won't accept any losses. There are frustrated burnouts. There are gaming addicts. Don't let all the anger twist your view, and when your matches start getting harder, just roll with it and keep improving. There's tunneling and slugging for the 4k in every survivor session I play. There are comp level SWFs that leave me with 2 hooks. If you play enough you're going to get to the point where people have 10k hours and are better than you and they're going to be extremely aggressive. If you can accept that than you you'll manage okay and the game will feel fairly balanced.
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@KingOfGhost said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4099295#Comment_4099295
Realistically, in what situation would survivors spread 270 charges across all seven generators? That would mean every generator had roughly 38–40 charges of progress.
Based on your concern, the more logical scenario would be for survivors to complete one generator and spread the remaining progress across three other generators. In that case, each of those three generators would have around 60 charges of progress. The moment the slowdown ends, all three generators could be completed very quickly.
Please define what you consider a survivor win, because I think you may have the wrong idea of what winning means for survivors.
No, unhooking directly in front of the killer is not always a simple trade. Survivors can body-block, use defensive perks offensively to force the killer into a lose-lose situation.
Yes, Make Your Choice exists, but my suggestion has nothing to do with that perk. The purpose of my suggestion is to make sure that a bad decision can be punished, just as survivors expect killers to be punished when they make bad decisions.
I am glad that, in your personal experience, you cannot remember the last time you felt bullied in this game. However, we both know that it happens, and it can be extremely unpleasant when you are on the receiving end of it.
Now tell me: what do you consider camping? There is already a basekit anti-camp system that prevents camping from being effective. Do you want the killer to be teleported to the other side of the map after hooking a survivor, or perhaps prevent them from coming within 32 metres of the hook?
Regarding tunnelling, my changes would reward killers for hooking different survivors and slow the game down overall, reducing the pressure to eliminate one survivor as quickly as possible.
We both know (or at least I assume we do) that if a killer is determined to tunnel, they will do it. There is very little a survivor can do besides wasting as much of the killer’s time as possible and trying to make that strategy cost them the match.
That situation is frustrating, and the only way to completely prevent it would be through a system similar to the anti-tunnelling mechanic tested in the 9.2 PTB.
However, most players do not want to tunnel. Sometimes they feel forced to because of how quickly the match progresses. Instead of forcing killers to play in one very specific way and punishing them even when they did nothing wrong, my suggestion would simply give them a little more time to play the match and reduce some of the pressure and anxiety they experience.
Lastly, you clearly believe slugging is a problem. What solution would you suggest that addresses slugging without unfairly punishing killers?
Can you tell me why survivors deserve a debuff simply for working on (and, again, not necessarily completing) generators when you're not offering anything for the opposite scenario? You've basically inverted the anti-tunnel from the ptb. Why don't survivors get a buff if someone is dead before some amount of gens are done? Survivor is already the role that has almost no comeback potential, unlike killer, who can win in endgame with zero hooks. So you want to drastically increase that potential and give the role that already lacks it nothing?
Again, if you think one person maybe escaping is a great scenario I don't know what to say. I would not play that game as either role honestly. I don't want killer to be the game that I just log on and win even when I play like crap.
What aspect of the game punishes killers for mistakes to the extent of basekit Exposed? Killers get bloodlust for being bad at chase. They get windows blocked after three vaults.
So you want the whole game changed because sometimes new players get put through the ringer?
Standing just outside the anti-camp and watching the hook, waiting to zoom back, is camping. The basekit anti-camp is weak. As it is, if you down someone trying to unhook, the slug keeps the meter from going up. You can facecamp and wait for them to die if the slug doesn't drag themself out of range in time.
Yes, if the killer is determined to tunnel, they will. But your throwing out a debuff to survivors for doing their objective too efficiently, so why not one for killers too? The type of tunneling where people feel forced isn't the issue, it's tunneling at 5 gens to secure an easy win. The anti-tunnel in the ptb wouldn't have heavily impacted desperation tunnelers because at that point the inability to regress gens no longer matters. You're probably losing either way. Rewards aren't going to stop people. There are already people who load up intending to 4man slug and get little BP. The people that are the issue are the ones obsessed with winning and will do so at any cost. Removing someone from the match immediately is already a better reward than anyone can give them. There would have to be something that makes it a risk instead of an instawin.
If the answer to slugging was easy it'd be fixed. After some amount of time on the ground survivors should be able to stand up. The amount of time is the issue. Whatever it is, it should increase with each subsequent slug. Nerfing or reworking perks that are being abused in slugging builds, like Coulrophobia and Infectious Fright, would also help. I don't actually have a problem with normal, tactical slugging. I do it all the time. I have a problem with it being a whole playstyle. It's an attempt to circumvent the entire intended game structure and it's very hard to counter, especially in soloq, and especially since people don't see it coming.
Instead of forcing killers to play in one very specific way and punishing them even when they did nothing wrong, my suggestion would simply give them a little more time to play the match and reduce some of the pressure and anxiety they experience.
But you want to punish survivors for doing nothing wrong. This gen speed debuff is very much a punishment for doing not even great, but just okay. You said the average game lasts 5-8 mins. I don't know where you got that number from but my normal matches last about 10-15 minutes. Looking through my recent matches, these are the low number ones:
Three 4k at 5 gen stomps so severe I didn't even crack 30k. So what do you suggest as basekit for these survivors to "give them a little more time to play the match and reduce some of the pressure and anxiety they experience' as you said.
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@Domicci said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4099282#Comment_4099282
reducing the time to do somthing is not the same as having entire better perks added base kit. when will you survivor main learn that the game is survivor sided your just bad. also want to talk about not remembering, remember how apparently killers didnt like being handheld because im sorry thats a bold face lie survivors didnt like killers getting stuff like them. this game is every us vs them because the devs treat killers as the them look how they treat pallet density a massive buff to survivors as a quality of life change and how they use kill switchs on killerin nano second but leave or straight up tell survivors how to abuse perks like with the infinite items.
Calling someone who you don't know anything about and who I know for a fact plays killer a survivor main while spouting out some rubbish about us vs them in one statement is peak irony. You've also done nothing but cry about killer and blame survivor for everything and have the nerve to tell someone else they're bad.
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@KingOfGhost said:
If you read the ideas I suggested, I included catch-up mechanics for both sides.
For killers, if the survivors have completed 60% or more of their objective while the killer has completed less than 50% of theirs, the killer would receive a generator slowdown effect. However, every time the killer regresses a generator, the slowdown on that generator becomes weaker.
This would mean killers would not need to run only slowdown perks and could use more interesting builds. Again, this mechanic would only activate if the killer has completed less than 50% of their objective while the survivors have completed at least 60% of theirs.
For survivors, if only two or fewer survivors remain, they would repair generators faster, giving them a better chance to escape.
I do not want to remove the Bloodpoints awarded for unhooking survivors. I only want the “Safe Hook Rescue” event removed because it feels pointless now that unhooked survivors receive 15 seconds of Endurance.
Does it make sense to reward someone for making a bad decision simply because the game prevents that decision from being punished?
They could keep the event, but if the survivor you rescued is hit at any point during those 15 seconds, you should lose the Safe Hook Rescue bonus.
The only reason I suggested bringing back hook grabs is that survivors should not be able to run directly in front of the killer and unhook someone without taking a significant risk.
If you dislike that idea and still want hook trades to remain possible, another option would be to make the rescuer Exposed for two seconds after unhooking while inside the killer’s Terror Radius. That would give the killer enough time to land one hit and trade the hook.
Regarding limited actions, the average survivor should not need to bless the same totem more than three times in a single match.
The healing limit is intended to help weaker killers who need two hits to down a survivor or rely on hit-and-run tactics. Realistically, an average survivor would not normally need to complete six full heals during a match.
These limits are mainly intended to counter bully squads and, in extreme cases, help the weakest killers.
In that ideal scenario, the killer would need to complete four full chases against two survivors and then one chase against another survivor.
If we assume that it takes the killer 30 seconds to find the first survivor and an average of 30 seconds for each chase, the match would already be around the three-minute mark. That is assuming the killer is extremely efficient.
An average Dead by Daylight match lasts around five to eight minutes, which means the survivors should have completed at least three generators by the time the killer reaches five hooks.
Therefore, the slowdown would not affect survivors in the ideal scenario. It would mainly help killers who cannot secure downs quickly enough or killers who require time to set up their power.
Regarding the Endgame Collapse, I will admit that I did not explain my idea clearly enough.
When I said, “Any perk that normally activates when an exit gate is opened should be disabled if the killer opens the gate,” I meant any perk that activates through or interacts with the exit gates in any way.
For killers, if the survivors have completed 60% or more of their objective while the killer has completed less than 50% of theirs, the killer would receive a generator slowdown effect.
It's not 60% of their objective unless 3 gens are complete. You said charges, which could be on 7 different gens with 0 gens complete. And then regress builds could make those charges regress. The free slowdown being weaker means it still exists. The killer can intentionally avoid using pain res until they hit this point, get 4 regression events (and probably a person or two killed) and still be receiving this free slowdown.
A 40% gen speed buff with 2 people left but with more than one gen left is still going to be a 3k, at least. It's not a catch up if winning is impossible.
This would mean killers would not need to run only slowdown perks and could use more interesting builds
Sure because it's free now. And no one needs to bring slowdown. They choose to.
The only reason I suggested bringing back hook grabs is that survivors should not be able to run directly in front of the killer and unhook someone without taking a significant risk.
If people unhook in the killers face it's almost always a trade. With a ranged killer it could be a double down. The killer could also choose to slug the unhooker and tunnel the unhooked, massively increasing pressure. It's plenty risky already.
another option would be to make the rescuer Exposed for two seconds after unhooking while inside the killer’s Terror Radius
Make Your Choice already exists and there's a reason it's outside 32m and not within 32m. There's no reason at all to do this. This would, as I already mentioned, lead to killers slugging then tunneling. It already happens a lot. It will just increase.
Regarding limited actions, the average survivor should not need to bless the same totem more than three times in a single match
But why? Boons are not meta. They're not OP. And they're a time waster. I'd rather survivors bless a totem than do a gen.
These limits are mainly intended to counter bully squads
Can't remember the last time I felt bullied in this game. This is mostly a baby issue, and goes away with time. If you want healing to be an issue there's a plethora of perks for that. You're asking for tons of perks-level buffs to be basekit for killers while all survivors get is a slight chance at a 1 out. No anti-camp, tunnel, or slug. Just killer buffs in a game that already favors killer.
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@Brimstoneslinger said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4098644#Comment_4098644
Grab removal, anticamp, longer hookstates and longer bt, your idea would be the 5th one
Im saying that survivors already step in trial with 4 basekit anti-hooking perks and have another 4 slots to spare, even ds is free and shoulder obtained from not licensed character, atp adding 5th basekit perk is diabolical
Gen kick regression, removal of gen taps, 90s second gens, bloodlust, nerfed infinites, nerfed main buildings, nerfed map sizes. Since apparently every feature added to the game is a perk. The amnesia about what your favorite side also receives is truly remarkable.
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@Duncan_Ellis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4099106#Comment_4099106
The difference and range of skill in the event queue is MASSIVE. I legit watched survivors just run back and forth across the map not being chased in multiple trials yesterday, completely griefing their teammates by doing nothing the whole game.
I don't know if thats a skill thing. People grief at all levels. That could very well be killers who don't care about the role doing play while you wait. Someone will unfortunately be matched with them, no matter how MMR looks.
@Your_Dad_Playing_DbD said:
I would love for someone at BHVR to explain how this happens. This was one of my solo queue teammates in my last match. It was not a backfill lobby. And the survivor queues are instant, so this is not an issue of “we just aren’t giving the system enough time for an accurate match.” It’s just taking “next person waiting regardless of MMR.” It is simply a garbage, broken system. A literal new low in the matchmaking ineptitude:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/CGO6LSTEZ4YU/img-9467.jpeg
Do you know it's not cross progression? My second platform is pretty low on hours. People would think I'm a baby.
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@Abyast1 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4099248#Comment_4099248
I can look at a timer, I can sit there watching videos and see how long it takes. I don't need the game to tell me how long I've waited for, given I've played both roles since 2018.
"queues weren't regularly over 5 mins until recently"- They have been for easily the past year. Consistent 5 mins+ killer queues have been the norm since knight (2022) for me and everyone I've talked to irl about dbd (might just be UK servers, but you've yet to show how UK servers are some huge outlier at the other servers peak times).
Also singapore survivors have over a minute wait on the event, whilst its instant on the event, they arent the same by your standards.
"Not every match is Hex Jason. I played 35-40 survivor matches the other day and I not only didn't see one hex Jason but not even a single Jason at all. Very few totem builds either.
But no, its not okay. The Jasons with hex builds are why I took a two week break from survivor, the longest I've ever taken since picking up the role. But now that it's gone down, it's bearable. Nurse is also not fine but she's also not every match. Frequency is what makes a broken thing unplayable."- So we can finally understand that just because people are willing to queue for a role doesnt make it okay/bearable. But its only understandable for survivors, for killers it must be fine because they queue for it. Gotcha
The UK is not the world. You're limited experience on your own server guesstimating queue times is just not something I'm going to entertain. At the time I play, killer is usually instant. If I use only that extremely limited experience, I'd have 1% of the picture. You lack context.
So we can finally understand that just because people are willing to queue for a role doesnt make it okay/bearable
Are you going to misconstrue everything I say? For one, survivors aren't waiting in a line. Second, I literally said I stopped playing because of it. With queues hitting 20+ minutes I proabjly wasn't the only one. Do you think survivors would play if every match was a god Nurse? If killer was consistenly terrible, and they consistently lost, they wouldn't play. Is your argument "killers occasionally lose and the role is therefore bad"?
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@Abyast1 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4099244#Comment_4099244
"didnt even seem to know dead by queue existed before this conversation"- doesn't mean I cant see the literal queues.
"I don't know how often you play"- usually a game or two a day weekdays, weekends can smash out 4+ hours depending on queue times.
"There's a reason there's an option to play survivor while waiting for killer and no vice versa option. They want to push people out of killer and towards survivor (without actually making survivor more enjoyable."- BECAUSE IT REQUIRES YOU TO HAVE 4 SURVIVORS TO EVERY KILLER. THEY NEED LESS KILLERS BECAUSE EVEN HAVING ONLY 30% OF THE PLAYERBASE PLAYING KILLER WOULD BE TOO MUCH BECAUSE THEY NEED IT TO BE NEAR 20% FOR THE QUEUES TO FUNCTION. HOW MANY TIMES DO I NEED TO REPEAT MYSELF.
"There are waits to play killer in the event on almost all servers right now. A ten minute wait in Singapore is crazy and you're saying killers aren't playing the mode. There were no 10 minute waits 2 months ago."- In singapore its 7am my dude. Thats your example? Whats their queue times look like normally? As in the normal mode?
"That they prefer regular mode but will still wait in line for the event? Again, people don't wait in line to get punched in the face. If it was that bad they wouldn't be there at all. They'd play survivor or wait in the longer queue—or just play something else. I'm sitting at a 75-80% KR in the event and even I'm unwilling to wait for 3 minutes for my easy win."- so when we had forever freddy ect it wasnt that bad because survivors were still queueing? Thrill must not be that bad because killer queue times are (in the servers that arent asleep right now/just waking up) pretty low so survivors must be queueing. Got it.
doesn't mean I cant see the literal queues.
usually a game or two a day weekdays, weekends can smash out 4+ hours depending on queue times.
Ok so you have no idea what the queue patterns are. The visible timer was only even added during the last 2v8. So you're using a limited amount of play time on one isolated server with a very new set of in-game data to make these hard statements about the whole state of the game and the queues.
Whats their queue times look like normally
Queue weren't regularly over 5 mins until recently and even that was the extreme end. I don't know why you're so deadset on arguing this when you've clearly never monitored the times before.
And Singapore's queue time for both modes are equal right now.
Thrill must not be that bad
Not every match is Hex Jason. I played 35-40 survivor matches the other day and I not only didn't see one hex Jason but not even a single Jason at all. Very few totem builds either.
But no, its not okay. The Jasons with hex builds are why I took a two week break from survivor, the longest I've ever taken since picking up the role. But now that it's gone down, it's bearable. Nurse is also not fine but she's also not every match. Frequency is what makes a broken thing unplayable.
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@Abyast1 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4099225#Comment_4099225
You don't seem to understand numbers and I don't know how many different combinations of "for there to be no killer queue times there needs to be a balance of 1 killer to 4 survivors, so the role can be less popular whilst also having a queue" I need to say before you get it.
I'm not approaching this as if everyones a main. Fundementally killer role has to be less popular unless you want abysmal queue times. That is fundementally a part of dbd, as it is a 1:4 ratio needed to keep queue times running. So, even if there was 30 people playing killer out of 100, that would have a queue time on killer. AND STILL BE INCREDIBLY UNBALANCED IN POPULARITY.
"You're not accepting that some people just play whatever queue is shorter or that some people (like me) play SWF or killer depending on other people's availability."- I AM. I'm saying usually people are willing to brave the queue times for killer because they find it fun enough, but right now due to the queue times being consistently lower than their average even before jason dropped there either needs to be some hidden influx of survivors coming out of the woodwork which we've never seen before even when jason dropped which would point to people being more willing to play survivor than killer, or it means that people are less willing to play killer shortening the divide between both. Some people are willing to play whatever is a shorter queue, which will always be survivor, because the queue times for survivor are always instant, since there needs to be 4x the amount of survivors than killers for it to be balanced.
" The queue times won't tell you how popular a role is if most people play both, but they are currently telling you that enough people are willing to wait in line to play killer when they could just play survivor immediately."- The fact that theres a queue time has been a fundamental truth since the creation of the game. Killers have dealt with these queue times anyway. The fact there isn't a queue time in the event (or its incredibly small) means killers aren't waiting. There isn't anywhere near as many killers waiting for the role because they cba waiting over a minute to get into an event game. They'll wait that for the normal queue. Normal queue times are 6 mins. But they won't for the event queue. Does that not saying anything to you?
but right now due to the queue times being consistently lower than their average even before jason dropped
This is just not true. I check the queues in all regions multiple times a day. You didn't even seem to know Dead by Queue existed before this conversation so you probably aren't used to the wait patterns that shift by region and time of day. You seem to be only using what you've seen on your server as an example, and I don't even know how often you play, but I'm usually on almost everyday and the times are much higher than normal, and that's even with it being split between two modes. They're going to shoot back up even higher once the event is over.
Fundementally killer role has to be less popular unless you want abysmal queue times
Killer is the role that sells the game. It's the role the CCs all pitch. It's the role designed to win more. Most people who didn't join to play with friends probably started playing to play killer. But, once again, if you play both, you'll just play survivor if the killer queue is too long, thus keeping killer queues from being astronomically high and just moderately high. There's a reason there's an option to play survivor while waiting for killer and no vice versa option. They want to push people out of killer and towards survivor (without actually making survivor more enjoyable.) There was a time years ago when survivor had long queues. You had an argument then but those days are over.
The fact there isn't a queue time in the event (or its incredibly small) means killers aren't waiting.
There are waits to play killer in the event on almost all servers right now. A ten minute wait in Singapore is crazy and you're saying killers aren't playing the mode. There were no 10 minute waits 2 months ago.
Does that not saying anything to you?
That they prefer regular mode but will still wait in line for the event? Again, people don't wait in line to get punched in the face. If it was that bad they wouldn't be there at all. They'd play survivor or wait in the longer queue—or just play something else. I'm sitting at a 75-80% KR in the event and even I'm unwilling to wait for 3 minutes for my easy win.
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Very much disagree with Lithe being the more problematic of the two. I can't tell you how many times I've downed someone that was risky vaulting specifically to trigger it. It does have some risks, especially on crappy edgemap vaults. Vault locations also have limits. Pallets become less and less as the match goes on and you run out of good Lithe spots. SB, on the other hand, requires nothing. You can just stand there and wait for the killer and then zoom away to a safe location.
But the real problem is Vigil.
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@ArcT said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4099207#Comment_4099207
I'd actually argue that giving basekit unbreakable in 2v1 makes it MORE likely killers will stall out the match, and would stall it out for longer. Why would they not leave the injured one on the ground and keep searching as before? Still prevents the hatch from spawning, and they have a general idea where a survivor is, plus the knowledge that they're injured and so easier to track and find, while also unless there's only one gen left that's at like 80%, not threatening to make the killer lose. Even moreso if the other survivor is healthy, as waiting to kill one until both are injured makes it easier to find the other and limits how much distance they can cover when chased. Or sit on top of/W-S them until they can get an abandon and let a bot take over who they don't care if the bot finds the hatch or escapes, or wait for the bleedout if the survivor goes fully AFK.
Basekit Unbreakable in the 2v1 has never been a solution to the fundamental issues with the hatch. All it would end up doing is putting BOTH survivors into the ######### hiding/slugged loop as the killer ping pongs between them until one abandons.
The hatch should spawn if one of the last 2 has been slugged for 30s. That would make slugging for the 4k an actual risk instead of a free victory, since both players could potentially leave through it if the standing one picks up the slug. The hooking would likely guarantee the 3k and a normal, gamplay-intended chance of a 4k, but slugging could result in a 2 out.
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@Abyast1 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4099178#Comment_4099178
"Your math is too black and white anyway"- Awhhh does someone not like me using logic to determine my argument. But in all realness, for the queues to be low for killer, there has to be around 20 killers to every 80 survivors. Even a slight wait could be shifted if theres 25 killers or 30 killers. The closer it gets to 50:50, the more catastrophic the queues (like the 20 minute queues when jason came out). My math is black and white because its pretty black and white. You need 4 survivors for every killer. So queue times would be incredibly long if there was 45 killer to every 80 survivors instead, sadly thats just maths. Basic at that.
You don't seem to understand the nuance at all here and I'm not sure how many different combinations of words I can use to say the same thing. I pretty much stopped playing for a couple weeks when Jason came out. There was a small window around midnight then the queue was acceptable and I i could play a few matches. Long queues simply make people not play at all if the role they want is too long. You are approaching this as though 1) everyone is a main at a role and 2) all players are always in line at all times, making the numbers an accurate reflection of where the game is at. You're not accepting that some people just play whatever queue is shorter or that some people (like me) play SWF or killer depending on other people's availability. The queue times won't tell you how popular a role is if most people play both, but they are currently telling you that enough people are willing to wait in line to play killer when they could just play survivor immediately. It is that simple. If you choose to wait in a line instead of not waiting in a line, you like the role enough to do so. I don’t know why there is such a desperate desire to make the role look like it's in a bad place when reality says otherwise.
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@ArcT said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4099186#Comment_4099186
Every time a self-declared killer-main posts their laundry list for 'game health' changes, it's always like:
For Killer:
Nerf gens
Nerf healing
Nerf exhaustion
Buff camping
Buff tunnelling
Buff endgame
Buff sluggingFor Survivor:
Add tooltips
Watch tutorials
5% more BP
1m anti-camp radius increase"I think I'm being impartial and these would be good and fair changes on both sides."
Almost every suggestion here is a massive baseline killer buff, while the beneficial changes for survivors are limited to lost games/the hatch only.
Yeah but did you know you might get the hatch? Some matches will only be 3ks. Be grateful that there's a key somewhere on the map that you might find in time.
I'm genuinely starting to wonder if people think the game should be designed around the killer winning every match and the goal for survivors being maybe one final girl type of escape and some points.
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You want gens to slowdown if the killer has 5 hooks at 2 gens? Five hooks is two people on death hook and one with one hook. Why do they get that, exactly? That's the game progressing normally. And going by charges instead of completed gens means there could be zero gens done with all gens having some progress. Why on earth should survivors get a debuff with no gens completed?
Giving killers the BBQ BP bonus back is fine but why take BP for unhooking away from survivors? It's just BP. It doesn't hurt anything.
Hook grabs should never come back unless we also change it so a survivor being in the anti-camp range doesn't make the bar stop progressing. If the killer wants to stand behind you and wait for you to unhook so they can grab you, the meter should keep progressing.
Nerfing boons, which are already painfully mid, is a wild thing to want.
Your idea of making the game "more interesting" seems to be making killers get at least a 3k by default unless they are abysmally bad at the game. I'd never play survivor again if the game looked like this, especially since you have punishments for survivors just for touching gens and not a single bit of anti-cheese for killers. It's just a bunch of survivor nerfs with a bigger chance of one person getting out.
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@Abyast1 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4099002#Comment_4099002
the line to play killer is because theres more than a 1:4 ratio, it may not be unplayable, but it is incredibly survivor sided and unfun for most.
"perfectly popular"- so your saying that if 1 of 2 roles is only played by 25% of the community its "perfectly popular"? I mean thats a take you can have for sure ig.
The simple fact is you have to wait in line to play killer. You can want it to be the sad, sad suffering role all you want but there aren't lines to go get punched in the face. No one is required by law to play killer. They are choosing to wait in a line to do so.
Your math is too black and white anyway. If there's a line for killer, people like me just won't wait in it. We'll play survivor or we just won't play at all, which is the option I'm currently going for. There's currently a 6/4min 1v4/event queue on my server and I'd like to play killer but I'm not willing to wait in the line.
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@Abyast1 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4098920#Comment_4098920
Sorry for replying to this one a third time, Just gonna revisit queue times.
Normal queue:
Killer 7:25, Survivor:24s. This either suggests way too many killers. Or not enough survivors. Or Both at one time.
Event queue:
Killer 2:32, survivor:6s . This suggests that whilst there could be not enough survivors, theres more ample a supply of survivors playing the event than normal mode, whilst theres still too many killers thats a drastic shift in 5 mins between the modes. That means theres a lot less killers playing the event queue than normal queue.
Every queue is showing these stats right now (was using UK numbers). Event queue has lower killer wait with low survivor wait, and normal queue has a slight survivor wait with a High killer wait.
I never argued that wasn't the case. I'm saying that even in an event mode that's supposed to be super duper survivor-sided there's a line to play killer. The role is far from unplayable, which is what people often say.
I'm playing it right now and it's a minute wait which means I'll probaly be getting off. That's not much but I usually have no wait at this time. Even a small wait in a less desirable mode shows that killer is perfectly popular.
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@Abyast1 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4098915#Comment_4098915
Ah fair. Ok.
- agreed. People blaming the other "side" instead of getting better is an issue.
- The post is about tunneling. I'm mentioning when you might need to hard tunnel. Your response is "if you need to tunnel that badly you don't deserve to be in that mmr". My response will be "tunneling is a tool the devs have given killers to be efficient, just because the killer is playing efficiently doesnt mean they don't deserve to be in that mmr". and we will just go back and fourth because you seem to put a lot more emphasis on the killers responsibility to be skilled/play at their skill level than the survivors whilst also seemingly acknowledging that mmr is ######### and can throw either side in the deep end.
- I made your point (killer has a lot more agency) whilst also making my point (A killer can get thrown in the deep end vs survivors too).
- I've not seen killer queue times being longer on the event. This might be down to regional differences (Im from the UK), but Killer queue times on the event/ blood banquet are 1-2 mins if not instant, down from what is usually 5-15 mins depending on peak times ect. Also, having no BP bonuses when usually there is BP bonuses for survivor must show you theres less killers in the event, because they don't need as many survivors to match with the killers, as there isn't as many killers playing the event. Those queue times might only be for the normal queue, I don't know if however your tracking queue times and how they do it, but it seems like they might only track the normal queues times
just because the killer is playing efficiently doesnt mean they don't deserve to be in that mmr
The biggest issue is this word right here:
Deserve.
MMR is not a badge of honor. It's not an achievement or a goal. It's not even visible. It's a matchmaking tool. This word is what makes people act this way. They think MMR is a ladder to climb, like a ranked mode, and a thing to brag about, even though it's all just assumption based.
I shouldn't have been matched to Momoseventh multiple times as survivor. I shouldn't be put against comp teams as killer. It's not a matter of deserved. It's just not where I should be. But if you stay above the goal numbers, as I do, it's where you end up. And you will struggle, as I struggle, if you're not ready for it. This is why there are people who lose on purpose to tank their MMR. I commend them for recognizing that they aren't where they should to be. They have the sense to not sweat for stats or care about invisible numbers.
Just checked, If your checking using Dead By Queue (which I think you are) that doesn't account for the event queue, which is what weve been talking about for so long
Scroll down.
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@Abyast1 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4098889#Comment_4098889
"If a 100 hour survivor gets matched with a 5000 hour killer you can't say it's their fault. It's impossible for them to meet at that level. In that case, it is actually the game's fault. I got matched with a team of perkless comp players on Badham once that obliterated me. I could say it's also the game's fault but we might well have been in the same MMR bracket, I just wasn't anywhere near their level. But I do have a higher that goal KR. A 100 hour player matching with someone in upper MMR would not be their fault on either side."-
and vice versa, if a 500 hour killer gets matched against survivors averaging 2/3 thousand hours its not their fault if they lose. That doesn't change the fact that its a skill issue. Just means its more understandable. At this point it seems your content with strawmanning, as im seeing in the rest of your comments.
"Lord knows they can and will complain. The problem with this argument is that the killer is solely responsible for themselves, whereas the survivor's teammates can doom them by no fault of their own. Go look in the current killer anxiety thread (or any of the past ones because this place is stuck in a time loop) and you'll see this one common thread that pops up constantly: they're stressed because the responsibility falls on them and them alone. But that's the role, and that's what I like about. And it's also why these serial complainers offend me so much. It's supposed to be the role of personal responsibility but for some reason it attracts people who don't want to be responsible when they lose, so they blame everything but themselves. When I get beat as killer I get angry and frustrated but I don't run to the forum looking for validation for an external source of blame."
Thats sadly the issue with it being 1v4, you have teammates. That's also just part of an asymetrical horror. But to act like when a killer tunnels because they feel like they can't win is a skill issue vs when a survivor can't handle being tunneled its not a skill issue is ridiculous. I'm saying both sides are technically under the "skill issue" complaint because it is a skill issue. As much as you would/have argue picking a sub optimal killer/build or them needing to tunnel is a skill issue, theres a plethora of reasons they could tunnel like bad matchmaking means a new killer is going against strong as hell survivors. For example, I played probably my 10th game of legion ever today, and was met with 4 p100 swf (One was a twitch streamer so found out they were premade) and still somehow got the 4k, even though It was incredibly close to a 2k until the end. I messed up, due to my inexperience with legions changed fov a couple of times, and somehow still won. But had I lost it wouldve been understandable as some of them (2 were private) had over 3000h, and im sitting on just over 1.5k hours on this acc (I used to play on my brothers acc at first) and they were a swf with somewhat decent comms. And I could complain about that game, even though my almost loss was a skill issue. This is just my most recent example, but mmr can screw killers as much as survivors, so a "killer being bad" may be down to them, but they can also be thrown into the deep end vs the unemployed who have way too many hours/time to play this game.
It's not overpopulated, it's just not as undesirable as the forum wants to think. Everyday we have posts about how unplayable killer is and how weak killers are and how survivor is braindead and they win every match, statements that not only don't track with my experiences or the ones of friends, but that never seem to have any absyallmy low personal KRs posted to show just how unwinnable it is. The complainers are still winning their matches.
I'm not sure what you're showing me. The bonus goes to the role they need more of, which is survivor, because there a line for killer. These are the current queues:
Your argument before was killer has a queue time, so people must be filling the role way too much. You've now flipped that on your head to grant the narrative you want. If a longer then usual queue time means that theres too many in one role, its for both sided dude. Your either rage-baiting or being facetious and I genuinely can't tell.
My argument is: Yes the bp bonus signifies which role is needed more, but to go from almost 2x on average to 1.1x means the divide between the huge amount of killers to survivors has shifted down. Its gone from about 1:2.5 survivors and shifted to 1 killer :3.8 survivors in the event. Yes more survivors are needed, but if the imbalance was too high, the bonus would be bigger, and killer queue times would be back to 5 mins. Survivor is always needed more due to it being 1:4 in ratio, so to go from up to 2.25x bp to survivors to 1.1x and insanely short killer queues must be because killers aren't playing the event.
The only line for survivor is in Australia, but they also have a line for killer. So too many SWFs and killers and not enough solos, I guess? Normally the waits change based on time of day. It's not normal for killer to have the line everywhere at all times.
I disagree with Cross Examination being broken. It's popped up a lot in my killer matches and I've paid close attention to it. It's caused me no trouble. The 5s is too short for me not to just find the trial again with basic guessing. Assuming they can even break LoS. Even on Lery's and Trickster's I have no problem. It's extremely situational which, to me, is low value. It was at least an interesting new thing but will be in the trash heap soon.
Again, im not saying survivor isn't the most needed role. You seem to be misunderstanding why I posted that. Im saying that from the usual 5 min queues killer queues have dropped and survivors have extended. Whilst needing more survivors (which is permanently the case when Im on, its a minimum 1.5x/1.75x bp bonus to survivors over the past 6 months) They need LESS survivors than usual, because there is LESS KILLERS and more Survivors in the event.
and vice versa, if a 500 hour killer gets matched against survivors averaging 2/3 thousand hours its not their fault if they lose. That doesn't change the fact that its a skill issue. Just means its more understandable. At this point it seems your content with strawmanning, as im seeing in the rest of your comments.
I said either role. The imbalance is just more visible on the survivor side. One baby can throw a match out of whack for the other survivors. One survivor with triple the hours can still be beaten if the rest of the team is more on the killer's level. What's the strawman?
But to act like when a killer tunnels because they feel like they can't win is a skill issue vs when a survivor can't handle being tunneled its not a skill issue is ridiculous
We're shifting the topic a bit here. This post was in reference to killers immediately tunneling, not tunneling when they feel desperate. These are people who want to push the "I win" button immediately. If a killer feels like they can't win ever without tunneling then they're in over their head and need to drop in MMR. It's only a proper skill issue if the skill levels are at least marginally equal and their was a fair shot. But if a killer hits someone off hook and then throws poison at them in a deadzone so they literally cannot react or get to anything there's no skill to express. That's just uncounterable cheese, and the killer knows it quite well.
I'm asking killers that cheese their way to the top to just accept it isn't the game, it's thier decisions. These people are the meme of the kid putting a stick in his own bike spokes and blaming someone else. And what I mean by blaming the game is blaming things like perks or pallets. Matchmaking is a genuine concern but that's not what most people default to blaming. They blame the toxic evil enemy side and all its OP handholding. Many people in this community are allergic to admitting that other players can be much better than them.
This is just my most recent example, but mmr can screw killers as much as survivors, so a "killer being bad" may be down to them, but they can also be thrown into the deep end vs the unemployed who have way too many hours/time to play this game
This is the same example as my comp team except I lost. We're saying the same thing. But you're also kinda making my point. A killer can be new and screw up and still beat better survivors. I do this every day. The survivors I play against are almost always better than I am at survivor. It's an easy thing for me to identify playing both regularly. But bad survivors don't really beat good killers, and that's because killer is not in the bad place people want it to be.
Your argument before was killer has a queue time, so people must be filling the role way too much.
My argument is that killer queue times are longer than normal and the role is not undesirable. I have never had to wait in line at my normal play time. Now I do. People are playing killer. That's it. That's the whole point.
The BP bonus is well known to be buggy and erratic. A few months ago I had this happen:
Even though there was no queue for killer. I've generally had no BP bonuses on the event on either role at my time despite killer having a small line. That may be because they want survivors to go to the longer 1v4 queue instead. It's much better to use the online queue times as gage than the BP bonus.