cogsturning
cogsturning
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@Eleghost said:
Does MMR even exist? my lobbies always differ. i think it's just like new player mmr then everyone else after a certain point.
Even new player doesn't always matter. My partner is below the soft cap and was matched with a 2k hour player recently. This is on Switch, who can only play with one another right now, so even if you're new it will prioritize speed or convenience.
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@Mistfit said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4097538#Comment_4097538
I feel like any minor disagreement someone has is just going to result in a down vote. Some people do it and don't even explain why
Because the same topics are brought up constantly and people are tired of repeating themselves.
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@Brimstoneslinger said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4097802#Comment_4097802
"But tell me why a person should be able to play this bad and have a chance at a kill just because it's end game? I've had these matches where I do this bad and I don't feel entitled to any freebies from the game. And why does that one unlucky survivor who did well the whole match deserve a loss to a bad killer?"
Because they was able to down and hook survivor which means that killer should have a chance to secure that kill if he play it right, correct me if im wrong but your wording- "why a person should be able to play this bad and have a chance at a kill just because it's end game" mean that last hooked survivor might as well insta tp to exit gate in endgame if you think that killer shouldnt have fair chances for comeback? also last gen pop could be delayed to the point of all team reset and positioning to instaopen gates, in that case even if killer catches survivors on one gates it would still take 1hit+1 bodyblock to get to the other which already opened atp-its not 100% strategy but its pretty common practice and it doesnt require astronomical skill to pull off, so if team allowed that down and hook at 0 gens to begin with its mistake that should be punished by fair endgame standoff, not the uncounterable 3 bodyblock circus we have at the moment.
"I don't know why people use this as an equivalent all the time. A killer is one person. If you under perform, the responsibility is solely yours. If a good survivor gets paired with three potatoes they have no control over the fact that those potatoes are not gonna make it. Matches would feel 100% hopeless in many scenarios just 30s in. The hatch makes them feel 90% hopeless instead. And a 3k with a hatch escape is still a win for the killer. A 1k in end game is still a loss. So why are people so obsessed with this one free kill?"
Killer could be massively outperked to the point where individual chase skills and macro knowledge would change ammount of hookstates but not result of the match (mainly due to funny Taurie perk), as i stated earlier this unhook situation could occur at 6-8 stages
"If a good survivor gets paired with three potatoes they have no control over the fact that those potatoes are not gonna make it. Matches would feel 100% hopeless in many scenarios just 30s"
I believe that captain should go down with his ship and every survivor should treat themselves as captains of own lobby, i singlehandedly turned so many hopeless matches into 2-3 escapes because i didnt considered hiding for hatch and actually pushed gens even when "potatoes" did nothing entire match
"Comparing normal things in the game to cheating is just disingenuous.
It's also not just a knowledge check. Solos can't communicate. There are many who won't even participate in saves. Even in SWF you sometimes blow saves by miscommunication. If survivors got debuffs in end game it would make some difficult saves impossible and people would stop performing them all together."
Normal things? if you could link eldritch god to computer with 30*10^12 hours in dbd, ability to perfectly read opponent mind,0 imput lag, 0 ping, 0 reaction time and put him against 4 survivors which got 10 hours of unhook practice the creature will get 0 successful trades out of this situation, if theoretical embodiment of skill cant do anything about this unhook strat then how its disingenuous to compare it to cheating?
Going for highlighted hook and wait in area around it for arrival of your teammates does not require SFW communication, as i said its basic knowledge check, if certain survivors cant handle risks that coming with saves its still not a valid reason to keep endgame unhook 100% save if everyone came
also last gen pop could be delayed to the point of all team reset and positioning to instaopen gates, in that case even if killer catches survivors on one gates it would still take 1hit+1 bodyblock to get to the other which already opened atp
If people are coordinating that much they can have the save for all I care. I do stuff like this in SWF but the problem is most solos aren't. You want debuffs that will mostly effect people who can't communicate since they're already at a disadvantage.
as i stated earlier this unhook situation could occur at 6-8 stages
If you have 6-8 hookstages there's a good chance whoever you down is already on death hook anyway. If you decide to chase someone with zero hookstates when you know one gen is about to pop that's usually a bad choice.
I believe that captain should go down with his ship
This is not fair in a game with bad matchmaking and no communication. If you load into a game and people decide to throw because they don't like the killer you shouldn't just be doomed. It's not as though every match is fair and balanced and everyone tries their best.
You are just being ridiculous with that last bit. I don't go a single session without turnng an L to a W in end game. If you get a kill 0% of the time in these situations that's a you thing because I know that's not the common experience.
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@Brimstoneslinger said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4097744#Comment_4097744
"If the person is even unhookable they only had one or zero hook states. If everyone else is alive and healthy then you did a bad job"
This scenario is typical for killers that chose to spread hooks instead of turbo-tunneling and it resulted in 6-8 stages and 0 kills at reaching endgame, its not looking like "bad job" in the slightest in matter of fact its hilarious how killers that chose to not tunnel is the most affected group of this uncounterable strategy, also even if killer got game with 1 state at 0 gens im believe it still shouldnt result in free unhook regardless
"Why do survivors deserve debuffs in a match they were already winning?"
Because it force lose-lose situation that could be outplayed only if survivors would somehow fail the most mediocre and intuitive check in the entire game, i cant believe that im unironically have to say it but here we go- skill expression of one side should never require necessary failure of other side to be pulled off, the fact that 3 healthy survivors got to endgame should not guarantee in potentially 100% lose-lose save
"What is the argument for the easy pity kill in end game?"
Firstly dbd have no problems with giving pity escape via hatch for last survivor and pity escape on top of another pity escape with gate/key escape. Also i never stated that this kill should be free, closest way to make it skillful competition is return of hook grabs so each side could have chance to outmindgame other but even then without some unhookspeed nerf it might still be blockable
"Deny it all you want but end game kills do happen. Some times whole team wipes too. End game still requires strategy from you too. When to hook, or whether to slug instead, are things you have to consider."
I agree that even mediocre knowledge check could and will be failed which also could eventually result in a team wipe, its still doesnt make that argument much better than- "cheater could potentially lose power at home which will result in dc and victory, so lets keep things as they are", good hook positioning and slugging will give advantage but its not fixing lose-lose problem beside hooks with rare outside collision ig
At the end of the day anti camp is implemented, anti 3 gen is implemented, extended bt and hooktimers are implemented too, even 3 gen merchant was not that lose-loseish (comp team still won) as those type of endgame saves, this phenomenon have to go
also even if killer got game with 1 state at 0 gens im believe it still shouldnt result in free unhook regardless
But tell me why a person should be able to play this bad and have a chance at a kill just because it's end game? I've had these matches where I do this bad and I don't feel entitled to any freebies from the game. And why does that one unlucky survivor who did well the whole match deserve a loss to a bad killer? There are times when I commit to someone when I know the last gen is about to pop because they're my only chance at a down. Why should that player now be faced with a stronger chance of a potential loss after keeping me busy so long? If survivors had team win conditions there could be an argument, but being on the hook leaves you at the mercy of your teammate's abilities and has nothing to do with your own skill, yet you get the loss if they decide to leave.
Firstly dbd have no problems with giving pity escape via hatch
I don't know why people use this as an equivalent all the time. A killer is one person. If you under perform, the responsibility is solely yours. If a good survivor gets paired with three potatoes they have no control over the fact that those potatoes are not gonna make it. Matches would feel 100% hopeless in many scenarios just 30s in. The hatch makes them feel 90% hopeless instead. And a 3k with a hatch escape is still a win for the killer. A 1k in end game is still a loss. So why are people so obsessed with this one free kill?
I agree that even mediocre knowledge check could and will be failed which also could eventually result in a team wipe, its still doesnt make that argument much better than- "cheater could potentially lose power at home which will result in dc and victory, so lets keep things as they are"
Comparing normal things in the game to cheating is just disingenuous.
It's also not just a knowledge check. Solos can't communicate. There are many who won't even participate in saves. Even in SWF you sometimes blow saves by miscommunication. If survivors got debuffs in end game it would make some difficult saves impossible and people would stop performing them all together.
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More of Hillbilly, Deathslinger, Pyramidhead, Vecna, Demogorgon. So basically the same as your last results.
Less Legion. Had three in a row recently and wanted to die. Absolutely the most obnoxious killer in the game. I actually don't see that much of Ghoul. Unsurprisingly, the killer I'd currently like to see less of is Jason. I haven't played survivor in almost 2 weeks, the longest I've ever stopped playing the role since switching over from being a killer-only player, because of him. If every killer is like this going forward and that's all I see I won't be seeing any killers but the ones I play because survivor will be about dead for me.
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I've seen this happen a couple times and it makes me wonder if it's random or if bot performance depends on the MMR of who they replaced or of the killer or if there's some other factors.
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I keep hoping it'll be the MMR rework. That wouldn't really need a ptb.
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I'd love it play Dredge again but the locker spawns are so inconsistent. Lery's and Badham alone pretty much made me drop playing it. I'd like more lockers to spawn in with Dredge and at this point I think the locks could just go, considering the Jason power creep. Maybe the exit could be a little slower, but Dredge's teleport is one of the weakest in the game as is.
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@Brimstoneslinger said:
Coldflame is 100% right and still being downvoted, dont like to be negative but what a joke of a discussion forum lol
Killer with dps of m1 attack physically cant secure hook/get successful trade against 3 healthy survivors, framedata of m1 hit mathematically disprove such opportunity if save played in right order, arguing against it is equivalent of unironically stating that 2+2=5, but ig common sense and axioms hold zero value if we discuss killer issues
The save process doesnt require reaction check, hard cooperation or niche positioning, killer couldnt fake, block or outwait it in any way either, its literally basic knowledge check which result in lose-lose situation at killer end, if some survivors could still somehow mess up lose-lose save process which as stated earlier not even mechanically challenging it doesnt mean that issue shouldnt be addressed, like some of cheaters still mess up and get killed after they couldnt press speedhack in time, does this mean that we should let them roam free unbanned because killers still could "potentially" catch them? theres simply no good arguments to keep endgame saves in current state, its either blatant ignore of gamedata or some kind of reach.
My suggestion is dynamic unhook speed that adjusted to ammount of survivors in 32m hook radius or return of old grabs, also endgame bt shouldnt provide passive speedboost
My suggestion is dynamic unhook speed that adjusted to ammount of survivors in 32m hook radius or return of old grabs, also endgame bt shouldnt provide passive speedboost
If the person is even unhookable they only had one or zero hook states. If everyone else is alive and healthy then you did a bad job. Why do survivors deserve debuffs in a match they were already winning? What is the argument for the easy pity kill in end game? Deny it all you want but end game kills do happen. Some times whole team wipes too. End game still requires strategy from you too. When to hook, or whether to slug instead, are things you have to consider.
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@Elan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4097708#Comment_4097708
That's my point. Cross is only 5s and can be somewhat usefull on indoor map if you get lucky los break. However if you truly want to pick this playstyle it already exists in the game for a while in I would say even better state and never shone. Speaking of lithe + dance with me, lucky break, lucky star, come and get me, toughen up, babysitter and many many many other perks.
This has been my consistent puzzlement with this argument. These perks already exists. I run a chase-ending/avoiding stealth build. They exist, and they work better than this one. Lucky Break/Iron Will/Overcome and I just disappear.
Even in an indoor map it's iffy. Someone used it against was on Tricketer's Delusion (which gets honorary indoor status) and even with all those twists and turns in the little shops they couldn't get enough distance before the marks started up again. That particular match really showed me how whatever the perk was. The scratch marks went away several times but he still couldn't lose me. It did nothing. The problem is that it's only 5s. That already made it weak enough without changing it. Now it's trash.
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I haven't been playing survivor so I didn't get a chance to use it but I've been paying really close attention to this perk in my killer matches. I always like to see if the drama matches reality. It hasn't. 12 people used this perk against me. All 12 died, and all the matches were losses for the survivor teams. Their scratch marks would stop and start but the Elusive never lasted long enough to allow them to break LoS. This is once again a situation where the very idea (and not the reality) of a new survivor perk giving value was considered unacceptable. It's not even good in most hands, and it's heavily dependant on luck and RNG.
If the problem is that a perk might let you escape chases for free, I already do this with great results with Lucky Break. Not only do I get one or two get out of jail free cards in almost every match, I also get an anti-tunnel effect because most of the time it's still active when (and if) I get hooked. Elsuive does more, sure, but LB gives me a speed boost with the hit and it lasts longer.
The few matches I lost in these batch of matches were all to Stakeout/Hyperfocus users, not to CE. Once again, community outrage over nothing is keeping the meta alive.
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@100PercentBPMain said:
I have an agenda here but please, never help out with Invocations. The sentiment is nice, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions. In a perfect world I'd trust you and let you finish the invocation so I can leverage my health state by taking a hit, but fact is you can't trust Randoms to not let go and run off. And more traffic to the basement increases your odds of being followed, and the killer is going to struggle to find people and may wander to the basement. Like, please, I enjoy using No Mither so that's already incredibly sus.
it's the same kind of frustration as people rushing to pick you up with Plot Twist
Yeah but I love sitting in the little circle
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@KayTwoAyy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4097526#Comment_4097526
jesterkind desscribed it very similar to how I imagined…the source that is effected by diminishing returns should be given an icon that indicates it is not working at base value. When the perk in question is hovered over, it shows the adjusted modifier* and indicates the debuff is due to diminishings returns.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/SI4MQ8N8RDSJ/image.png
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/LK8OHP0DVJ6B/image.png
*I intentionally picked perks in the screenshot above that are conditional, understanding that showing the modifier in lobby may not be feasible. However, I would like to stress that it is a poor user experience to be asked to do the math to determine if my build is operating as expected.This is exactly how I thought it would look and I'm baffled as to why it went live with no visual indicators.
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I had a similar experience as yours when Henry came out. I had no intention of buying him but I loved the red sky and audio cues, and the Henry Creel skin's voice lines, so I went for it. I'm on controller and so had never really tried a ranged killer and I knew I'd be bad, so maybe that helped, but for awhile I was sitting at a 55% KR yet still still having a blast. Every successful vine attack was a dopamine hit. Every World Breaker was an accomplishment. It was the first time in a long while that I was just having fun for fun's sake, even as my stats slightly dipped. It was probably the only time since the stat page came out and ruined my mindset that I didn't mind bad numbers.
Fast forward to now. The KR is higher; the fun is gone. The desire to not look like a crappy p100 is intense. I'm angrier than ever. Good survivors who prerun or are using more efficient hardware than me destroy me. I don't have killer anxiety, I don't care about tbagging, but I do have imposter syndrome. Playing both roles allows me to see that my opponenets on both sides are better than me. I'm in an MMR bracket I don't feel like I belong in for either role but my results are always above the goal (sowehow) and so it never goes down, and the stress never ends.
I dont know what the cure is. The solution is trying to do cool stuff without caring about winning, like you did, but it's easier said than done. The only time I really have fun in this game nowadays is in non-serious customs.
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I think poisoning the food is an okay idea. Something else should be put in for chase.
It worries me that the stamina bar may be a concept being tested in relation to Exhaustion or some other perks I'm not a fan of Exhasuation but that would be a terrible idea.
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@coldflame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4097429#Comment_4097429
jumping over a pit in mario is 100% consistent if you press the right buttons, the player being bad doesn't mean that mario needs his jump height increased
This was a free, undeserved kill given by RNG. This person cannot be unhooked. It's not possible with the angle of the hook and me standing in front of them. So tell me how it's 100% consistent.
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@coldflame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4097371#Comment_4097371
soloq shitters being impossibly bad at the game does not factor into game balance, nobody who isn't inting ever 'botches' a safe 4out
Pretty positive they weren't soloq but that's quite a change from "100% consistent" to "except against the majority of players". There are also hooks that are positioned in a way that if you facecamp it's actually impossible to unhook. There's no prompt. There are also instadown and ranged killers. There's also the basement.
But "100 consistent".
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@coldflame said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4097314#Comment_4097314
'pulling off' something that is 100% consistent and requires no mechanical execution of note is not really a good way of putting it
I just finished up a match that should have been a 0k after how bad I played and how well they played and I flipped it into a 3k by slugging three and chasing the last one (the one they saved) out after a botched bit of altrusim. It is not 100% consistent.
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4097319#Comment_4097319
I feel like stripping some of the info would make sense if he got other ways to detect survivors. As it stands, he cant see or hear them. The tracking methods Spirit and Dracula have are completely absent here. Theres no sounds of breathing, grunts of pain, footsteps, ect.
He could keep the info if he had some visible fog-form or something. A huge part of his unfairness is getting so much while survivors don't even get to know where he is. If every map had grass then cool but most have no indicators. If you can see and hear Henry in Undergate, Drac's bats, and Wraith cloaked why is there zero indicator for Jason? There's no killer who can stay in their power infinitely and be completely inperceivable.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4097319#Comment_4097319
Part of my reasoning here is that he doesn't get as much information as some people are implying, because it seems like some people are acting like he has the red mist and footsteps as an increase on the info he has available and not a decrease.
He still can't see or hear survivors directly, which is a downgrade from just walking around normally and a downgrade from other "survivors are invisible" powers, and he's one of very few killers where you can be completely invisible and impossible to trace without prior knowledge of where you were when he entered his power.
There is a back and forth here - he's better at detecting people through floors than he would be with normal sight and sound, for example - but his info gain is a tradeoff rather than a straight increase.
That's what makes his basic power design cool to me. When he enters OE - which is the only tell you need for what I'm describing - you have a decision to make: do you want to risk Jason seeing you, or do you want to stay hidden?
Which of those two options is the right call depends heavily on a whole bunch of factors, which is kinda refreshing considering a good few killers have far more flowchart-esque counterplay. Plus, if you do decide you want to be hidden, you can be way more hidden than against most other killers, because again- if you stay crouched Jason cannot see or hear you at all, that's a more potent way of avoiding chase than you can get even with perks involved against other killers.Not being able to see him doesn't make a tremendous amount of difference here, the decision is about risk to begin with. If you're taking that risk (which is practically the right call by default, you'd need a reason to avoid him outright), you'll be scanning the teleport points nearby to see if he's manifesting, similar to looking out for Wraith's shimmer as he approaches.
I want to repeat though, I think some of the information he gets - mostly totem cleansing - isn't healthy. I'm talking strictly about the footsteps and generator mist here.
you have a decision to make: do you want to risk Jason seeing you, or do you want to stay hidden?
The problem is crows decide that you can't stay hidden. All this killer has to do is hard tunnel one or two people out and your choice in the 2v1 is reveal yourself and die or wait for the crows to do it for you. His power negates every single stealth perk in the game, and every stealth option. It negates aura. It negates perks like Stakeout and Hyperfocus, one of the only gen builds not nerfed by diminishing. He also gets to do casual drive-bys on gens without leaving his power or even kicking. So focusing on gens is more restricted as well. OE forces survivors into a chase-based playstyle, and his assortment of other tricks makes the chases 10s against many players. The idea of voluntarily taking chase works fine if someone has that confidence, or if it's a SWF coordinating, but that's not most people. Not to mention the non-existent cooldown on OE which was heavily used to tunnel in my survivor matches.
The issue is OE on top of everything else. If that was his whole ability, minus haste and and KI, with no ranged attack, then the info would be fine, because he's now a regular M1 killer. He'd be Wraith but more interesting. But the ability to infinitely sit in OE until survivors absolutely most reveal themselves combined with a very easy to replenish projectile, haste, KI, and a bunch of mini moris that make saves impossible against an already overstuffed killer is just too much.
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@Rokku_Rorru said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4097255#Comment_4097255
this is pretty much my opinion on it, I'm having a great time as Mina and Unknown <3
I'm gonna be so sad when it goes away and the queues go back up to 10 mins and I get to wait that long just for everyone to sit on gens and prerun. I'll probably barely play.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4097303#Comment_4097303
To be fair, every other killer save for Spirit and Dracula can just visually see you while you're on those generators. The difference between Jason and the others isn't that he can force you to broadcast your location, it's that you can actually hide yourself from him.
The Omnipresent Evil info structure is one of the cooler parts of his kit to me, it gives you a more potent ability to choose when you take chase compared to other killers. Some parts could be tweaked, for sure, but the mist on generators really isn't one of his problems imo.
OE isn't comparable to anything else in the game. Sure, killers can see without an ability with just their eyes, but survivors can see them too. You can also just choose the right time to not be findable by utilizing other information, or perks. The only killer you can't deny your location from is Legion. But you can't deny a killer the information if you have zero ways to know where he is. If Jason gets all this free info their should be a visual that shows his presence.
The only things even slightly comparable to OE are Draculas'a bats and Henry's Undergate. But both make a lot noise, both are visible, neither get KI. Pretty sure everyone just waits for Dracula to fly by before getting on a gen. Henry is wrecked by prerunnng when he performs his very slow and obvious ascension from the ground. He also has a proper cooldown on his traversal ability and gets no free haste despite also being a 4.4.
I honestly don't know how you can view this as cool. He's power crept every teleporting and traversal killer and gets an absurd amount of info just for existing.
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@jesterkind said:
Surely nobody is crouching enough in a Jason match to actually be getting crows?
You don't crouch all the time, you only crouch if you need to avoid him finding you at that moment. If you're in a solid position and the gen you're doing isn't as important comparatively, you wouldn't even bother letting go of that gen at all, just let him see you.
I think some people have got it in their heads the only way to counter Jason is to make sure he never sees you at all, but that's not really how it works. You CAN make sure he doesn't see you, IF you need the heat to be on someone else (injured on death hook, doing an important central gen, etc).
I was getting crows against him. I don't really see why a killer should force you into broadcasting your location. Why can't survivors stealth but this stealth killer can stay hidden for as long as he wants?
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@FerrousFacade said:
The poison has been a bigger frustration to play against than anything survivor got. I've only lost twice on killer and I would have lost to those teams with or without the event features. There is legitimately nothing you can do against a killer that is using the poison to tunnel you, you will just die.
Event exacerbates balance issues, whoever was going to win before is still likely to win in the event just harder than they would have without it.
There is legitimately nothing you can do against a killer that is using the poison to tunnel you, you will just die.
Wow I never even considered this. That's messed up. I've just been poisoning the dining carts.
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@100PercentBPMain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4097255#Comment_4097255
I can tolerate it as long as I don't see the baked Camembert
I played 18 matches yesterday and more than 10 were portals. It was starting to feel like a cosmic joke. But i also won 16 of the matches so I just can't find anything to complain about at this point.
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I'm against the herd on this one. At first I hated it but I've come to love it, I just needed to find the right killers and the right tactics to use the survivor hyper-aggression and toys against them. I honestly wish they'd extend it. I get to skip the Jason line and win basically all my matches.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4097225#Comment_4097225
Which they can do. Totally fine. IF they add a toggle to disable them.
I also dont think that everyone will be happy when voicelines are added to older characters. This will often also mean that there will be new Voice Actors. And we have seen with Steve that this is not always well received.
I won't be thrilled to hear a survivor I've played 5k matches with suddenly start talking but if they change the screams and other noises I'm going to cry. It would be such a shock after hearing these same sounds for years and associating them with the characters.
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The healing sucks when in chase with an injured person but I actually love them when someone is downed. They can never make any distance and just go down again. It's so hilarious.
Also love when they give me free Surge value:
https://youtu.be/tjpDTirIzRo?is=R3N9vxR1OQ78vjj_ -
@YaBoi0215 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4097057#Comment_4097057
I actually can tell you I get value out those perks every match. Yes, I get hooked with Deli not active, I still have DH and DS I can use. Yes, I miss a DH timing, I still have DS I can use. Yes, I don't get to DS the killer every match. Now I get to run away, do a gen, and still have DH to use in the next chase. I actively get value out of one of those perks every single match I play because I play into them. I understand the playstyle of them and have adapted to that. If I'm not first chase then I almost always need to be the unhooker so I setup for the unhook. If I am first chase I make sure to try and time my DH properly or figure out how the use my DS the right way if I'm getting tunneled. I constantly waste an insane amount of time for most killers that chase me with these perks and they offer insane value to my team. The only way these perks wouldn't be meta and used every match is if some other insane perk that did what they do but better was added.
The only way these perks wouldn't be meta and used every match is if some other insane perk that did what they do but better was added.
Literally my point. People use them not because they're amazing but because they're the options available. DS needs to go back to being a 5s stun. I down people the moment I recover with my main. It' crap against strong killers.
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I don't hate the idea of the badges though I do think a lot of the portraits are terrible. Even so, I haven't used any other badge since they became a thing. I switch back and forth between killer and survivor ones depending on what I'm playing at the time. I like the idea a lot, and I think others do too becuase I see them all the time, I just think the execution was iffy.
Cosmetics would be cool but I'm not dying for them. I find the legacies kinda ugly and wouldn't be likely to use them. What I would like is an animated banner and a special charm for each character. I'd also like legendary skins to get prestige badges.
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The portals. I actually don't mind any of the rest of it, but people who poof away as soon as they hear my terror radius drive me nuts. I would like them adjusted a bit.
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Not really. I hate SB and Vigil on survivor. I don't even have Vigil myself and don't often use Exhaustion. Only thing I really hate on killer is end game perks like noed or Remember Me. I think they're hella cheap.
There aren't many perks I hate though. Mostly it's playstyles combined with perks that I dislike. I had no problem with Infectious Fright and use it myself sometimes but the recent slugging bs has made me hate it.
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@YaBoi0215 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4097032#Comment_4097032
I actually never said these perks weren't nerfed, you're just seeing things. And they're ran every match because they do work. I get value out of DH, DS, or Deli every single match I play. Sometimes I get value out of multiple or all of them. The only reason these perks sometimes get value is because people don't understand how to properly use them. Forcing locker with DS is a perfect way or either getting value out of it or wasting the killers time. Using Plot Twist does the same thing. Deli also does the same thing. DH extends chases far longer than they need to be. The fear of these perks causes chases to last longer and tunnel outs to happen far less. These perks may not be what they were in their hayday but they are still oppressively strong and will continue to shape the way matches play out for the rest of DBD lifespan until something is done about them. I honestly can't think of a single killer perk or even a group of killer perks that have as much impact on the outcome of a match that perks like DS, DH, Deli, STB can have.
You are talking about the perks as though they haven't been nerfed:
They nerf any perk that combats tunneling? So I'm just crazy whenever I load up DBD and see DS, DH, OTR, STB, Deli, Plot Twist? These perks are so nerfed that some of them have been meta for years and some of them are the strongest perks in the entire game.
"These perks are so nerfed" yes, they are. DH and DS are nerfed perks.
You're acting like hopping in a locker with DS is a peak tactic and not the most obvious and basic thing people do with DS. People do this to me, I eat the stun, and they generally go down within 10s. What kind of value is that? People use it because the options are crap. The stun should be longer.
You can't tell me you get value out of them every match you play. You're saying you've never once been hooked with Deliverance not yet active? You've never missed a DH timing? Never had a match where you weren't tunneled or didn't get downed right after the stun wore off?
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@YaBoi0215 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4097016#Comment_4097016
DS is still literally one of the strongest perks in the game if not used like a neanderthal. Dead Hard was nerfed and is yet still one of the strongest perks in the game and is ran in almost every single match I play. The amount of time Dead Hard can add to chase will determine if the killer wins or loses the match. Plot Twist is 100% an anti-tunnel perk when played properly and ran with perks like DS forcing the killer to make the decision between picking you up and eating DS or letting you full heal. Deli is anti-tunnel because you basically gain no pressure by going back for the person that used Deli. The other 3 people are still just cranking away at gens. And if you're running Deli it's almost always paired with perks like DS, DH, and Plot Twist. Which is actually the strongest perk combination in the game.
You said they weren't nerfed. You were wrong. I wasn't talking about their usage. Yeah, they're in all my killer matches too. Doesn't stop me from winning more than I lose. They're used because they sometimes work and nothing better is available. It's the same as killers using regress every match while complaining about how weak they are. Both sides are full of people who feel obligated to run these perks.
Calling Plot Twist an anti-tunnel perk cause it can potentially synergize with anti-tunnel perks is disingenuous. By itself, it's not anti-tunnel. Same with Deliverance. You can't call perks anti-tunnel because they can pair with anti-tunnel perks.
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@Domicci said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4097016#Comment_4097016
ds is bad? i just know you bad at this game if your calling the strongest perk in the game bad. and its been buffed with its timer and buffed with enduring no longer working against it.
How does me downing someone with DS 5s after the stun make me bad?
And the last thing that happened to DS was a nerf from a 5s stun to a 4s stun.
But if you mean I'm bad at survivor, I think I'm doing okay:
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@YaBoi0215 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4096994#Comment_4096994
They nerf any perk that combats tunneling? So I'm just crazy whenever I load up DBD and see DS, DH, OTR, STB, Deli, Plot Twist? These perks are so nerfed that some of them have been meta for years and some of them are the strongest perks in the entire game.
Decisive and Dead Hard have been nerfed. Decisive is crap against most killers.
How is Deliverance an anti-tunnel perk? It's pretty much a please-tunnel-me perk.
How is Plot Twist anti-tunnel?
You forgot Babysitter though. But it was nerfed by diminishing returns.
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@Gamedozer7 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4096972#Comment_4096972
That doesnt check out because unless your playing a ranged killer you can easily abuse the ai to make mistakes and get easy downsts was.
The go next prevention was put in place because survivors were complaining about all the other survivors going next on hook. That doesn't hurt the killer in anyway it actually benefits them to get a quick 3v1. You can try to gaslight that the go next prevention is a killer sided change but is objectively not if all 4 survivors stay in the game it's much harder on the killer then that 3v1 so that math isn't mathing.
It doesn't stop anything though. I don't go a single killer session without someone trying to get killed quick to leave, often at match start. If I don't oblige they just chase me around or noise spam. These people are probably even more detrimental than a 3v1 because they're actively sabotaging. It isn't a killer or survivor sided change. It's an attempt to look like something was done when it really wasn't.
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@dangersmymidd1ename said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4096840#Comment_4096840
Jason is just too strong for these situations - I had a match on Coldwind, the last generators were on opposite sides of the map and he just slugged my teammate and went continually back and forth to the generators and the slug. Due to the 3 second delay in the survivors' crouch counterplay, I was eventually found after he dragged the match on for an extra 10 mins (having dribbled the teammate to prevent bleedout). There has to be a balance so that you can still make some progress and are not just forced to give up.
Deputy's Badge also makes this situation worse as he can continually regress the generators without having to leave super-speed invisible mode.
Did you report this? I don't think standing people back up over and over to drag out the match is allowed.
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@nedimnedo2001 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4096940#Comment_4096940
What was it about, something niche or, and where do you get replies, on email or ,so I know where to look for it
You get an email.
It was in regards to game bans, asking for clarification on rules.
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@nedimnedo2001 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4096909#Comment_4096909
How recent was it ?
Maybe 5 days ago
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I sent one recently and got a response within hours.
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@Wiccamanplays said:
Nightlight isn't perfect but it's still the biggest sample set we have (tens of thousands of matches per month and a lot of users have a widget that automatically uploads match data) and it's more up to date and transparent than the official dev stat releases. For example the screengrab with Krasue as the top Killer is definitely not reflective of reality because while she had a preposterously high kill rate on release she got nerfed fairly quickly and now is not nearly so powerful (additionally her pickrate plummeted afterward which makes the stats even harder to parse: if only three cracked Krasue mains ever play her and never lose but nobody else touches her because she's so clunky and hard to use in many environments, how strong is she really?). The same is certainly true for Henry.
I'm gonna add that since the whole 'the cake is a lie' debacle I'm even less inclined to trust BHVR for accurate or well-processed data.
Using the (admittedly limited) information we have, the inference is that on average a lot of Killers (or Killer players) are doing worse than expected. This is borne out anecdotally as well. Why this is bears more investigation: I suspect a rotation of maps that are difficult for lower-tier Killers, combined with a very strong Survivor perk meta, the increased proliferation of techs and strats, and the gradual improvement of the average Survivor (it's been 10 years, we're bound to have learned something). I don't know why some people are so upset by the conclusion that some Killers are underperforming and jump to ad hominem attacks when it's suggested.
I don't know why some people are so upset by the conclusion that some Killers are underperforming and jump to ad hominem attacks when it's suggested.
Because it always feels bias-driven and disingenuous. I've seen a lot of personal KRs amongst friends, not-friends, and forum members. They're always somewhere between 55% at the worst and 90% at the best. It's usually on the higher end. I don't know anyone with a KR in the 40s. You'd have to be throwing to do that bad. And this narrative of the tragic killer player who never wins is a little hard to swallow while I'm staring at the ceiling waiting in a line to play the role.
If the numbers were actually in a bad spot don't you think something would be adjusted? Why would they just let them stay where they don't want them?
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I played 10 matches tonight. Saw it 3 times:
All deaths, all 3 or 4ks for me. Not much of a sample but I remain unconcerned.
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@Domicci said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4096810#Comment_4096810
and im sorry until we get actual stat tracking i mane all the stat pick rate kill rate dc rate escape rate im not believing it the devs constantly lie what's stopping them from lying about this its not hard no one can check them and it give survivors ammo to use againt anyone that complains that survivors is the the power role specifically swfs
So you'd rather trust a random website where a small group of users can cherry pick the data they upload? Why is that better? Because it fits your preferred narrative? If anything, excluding DCs means the kill rates are higher than this, since those are usually killer wins.
And why would the devs lie? I know it's hard to believe but not everyone is super biased about a role in a video game and out to get their perceived enemy team with trickery and deception.
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My kill rates aren't that high, they're just not below the goal.
These are the official stats though:
Plenty well above 60. Guess these killers need nerfs.
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So is yours below 60? Because mine isn't.
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@Carnib9 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4096783#Comment_4096783
I already mentioned the point, which was that the closer you get to the top level, the more survivor-sided the game becomes. The average game is killer-sided in pubs because survivors are playing casually, often not trying to win (due to doing challenges and trolling), matchmaking is terrible, and etc, but if the survivors are high skilled and actually trying to win, the game is in their favour. I wouldn't call 90% of matches killer-sided, considering the kill rate is ~60% and that is heavily inflated by the aforementioned factors.
Being killer-sided doesn't mean they'll always win. The game as a whole is killer-sided. It's probably more than 90% of matches because for the scenario to occur, all the surviviors have to be highly-skilled. There are only so many perfect survivors playing in 4mans. And winstreaks on survivor are much less common and much less high in numbers than killer.
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@Carnib9 said:
Reading these comments, it seemed like more data was needed from another tournament, so I collected more data. There was actually another minimal rules tournament hosted on 9 Jan 2026 (3 months earlier). The 2 main differences with this tournament were that the teams were lower level (no top level teams) and killer variety was much larger. The average killer played was A/B tier, which was lower than the other tournament where it was mainly top tier killers. As expected, killers performed far worse, with an overall kill rate of 37.5% and win rate of 16.7%, which was 50% less than survivors. I doubt that in the current meta, A/B tier killers will ever achieve >50% kill rate in no restriction tournaments. For A+/S tier killers, I can see 40-60% kill rate being achieved depending on the skill level of survivors (with higher skill resulting in lower kill rates). Though, note that these tournaments primarily feature maps that are roughly even and almost never feature maps that are very survivor sided.
Tournament stage
Games played
Average Kills
Kill rate
Win rate
Draw rate
Lose rate
WR-LR
Overall
30
1.50
37.5%
16.7%
16.7%
66.7%
-50.0%
Map
Games played
%total
Average Kills
Kill rate
Win rate
Draw rate
Lose rate
WR-LR
Nightlight map kill rate
Nightlight map ranking
Suffocation Pit
6
20.0%
1.17
29.2%
0.0%
16.7%
83.3%
-83.3%
48.8%
25
The Temple of Purgation
6
20.0%
1.67
41.7%
16.7%
16.7%
66.7%
-50.0%
49.2%
23
Ormond Lake Mine
3
10.0%
0.33
8.3%
0.0%
0.0%
100.0%
-100.0%
48.2%
30
Coal Tower
3
10.0%
2.00
50.0%
33.3%
33.3%
33.3%
0.0%
51.0%
18
Father Campbell's Chapel
2
6.7%
1.00
25.0%
0.0%
0.0%
100.0%
-100.0%
48.2%
29
Fractured Cowshed
2
6.7%
2.50
62.5%
50.0%
0.0%
50.0%
0.0%
41.2%
44
Dead Dawg Saloon
2
6.7%
0.50
12.5%
0.0%
0.0%
100.0%
-100.0%
54.5%
4
Blood Lodge
2
6.7%
3.50
87.5%
100.0%
0.0%
0.0%
100.0%
48.7%
26
Wretched Shop
2
6.7%
1.50
37.5%
0.0%
50.0%
50.0%
-50.0%
44.6%
39
Wreckers' Yard
2
6.7%
1.50
37.5%
0.0%
50.0%
50.0%
-50.0%
48.4%
28
Average
3
10.0%
1.57
39.2%
20.0%
16.7%
63.3%
-43.3%
48.3%
26.6
Average (weighted by match count)
48.6%
25.7
Killer
Games played
%total
Average kills
Kill rate
Win rate
Draw rate
Lose rate
WR-LR
Cannibal
6
20.0%
1.67
41.7%
16.7%
16.7%
66.7%
-50.0%
Nightmare
2
6.7%
1.00
25.0%
0.0%
0.0%
100.0%
-100.0%
Artist
2
6.7%
1.00
25.0%
0.0%
0.0%
100.0%
-100.0%
Huntress
2
6.7%
0.50
12.5%
0.0%
0.0%
100.0%
-100.0%
Hillbilly
2
6.7%
2.50
62.5%
50.0%
0.0%
50.0%
0.0%
Unknown
2
6.7%
0.50
12.5%
0.0%
0.0%
100.0%
-100.0%
Blight
2
6.7%
3.50
87.5%
100.0%
0.0%
0.0%
100.0%
Clown
2
6.7%
1.50
37.5%
0.0%
50.0%
50.0%
-50.0%
Ghoul
2
6.7%
1.50
37.5%
0.0%
50.0%
50.0%
-50.0%
Dark Lord
2
6.7%
3.00
75.0%
50.0%
50.0%
0.0%
50.0%
Doctor
2
6.7%
1.50
37.5%
0.0%
50.0%
50.0%
-50.0%
Mastermind
2
6.7%
1.00
25.0%
0.0%
0.0%
100.0%
-100.0%
Animatronic
1
3.3%
0.00
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
100.0%
-100.0%
Wraith
1
3.3%
0.00
0.0%
0.0%
0.0%
100.0%
-100.0%
Average
2
7.1%
1.37
34.2%
15.5%
15.5%
69.0%
-53.6%
Data:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1dJGx60jg1G2Y4jCsMJ5rnqj1spDf-H26?usp=drive_link
Tournament: https://youtu.be/24efHBYOwYU?si=_whtSgzU4bNMvCQd
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4096565#Comment_4096565
For Hen's tournament, the variance was drastically lower than normal due to:
- Only a very limited number of killers being played (the top tiers)
- Killers were primarily only played on a 1-2 unique maps (typically their best maps)
Killers also had a massive advantage knowing the map in advance and the average map was killer-sided.
As previously mentioned, I doubt we will ever see it being killer-sided in no/minimal restriction tournaments. I think the sample size was sufficient for roughly accurate overall results. Day 1 and Day 2 + Finals had extremely similar overall results despite very different sample sizes. The 2nd tournament I posted also showed it was heavily survivor-sided. Though, when the data is broken down into by killer, map, and player, the sample size is much smaller, so those stats likely need more data.
I don't see the point of prohibiting comms since swfs in pubs have comms.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4096588#Comment_4096588
The 2nd tournament I posted was played 3 months earlier, had no Fast Track and saw similar results.
Playing for hooks is probably 70-80% the same as playing for kills since kills result in hooks. As you may know, successfully tunnelling a survivor out is highly favourable for killers. The priority is getting kills and hooks mainly only take priority when you know a kill is unlikely.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4096609#Comment_4096609
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4096680#Comment_4096680
It is true that these results aren't applicable to most pubs, but it does address whether the game is killer or survivor sided at the top level and shows that the game becomes more survivor-sided the closer you get to the top. DBD is killer-sided in most pubs since survivors are playing casually, often not trying to win (due to doing challenges and trolling), matchmaking is terrible, and etc., but when you get 3/4 competent survivors trying to win, it's a different story.
Even if I were to take this tiny sample and analysis with its own rules and very specific players as gospel, what's the point then? That in 90% of matches the game is killer sided? Ok?
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Perhaps I am simply facing stronger opponents
If you don't have a lot of hours in the game that's likely it. I'm pretty convinced MMR gain and matchmaking are responsible for 90% of this community's complaints. I've been sweating for awhile. Both killers and survivors I play against tend to be better than me in every way so keeping up in a bracket I've somehow ended up in is a constant struggle. I don't blame the game though. I recognize I'm often not as good as my opponents and just keep struggling to keep my head above water.
personally I enjoy chases as killer main
Do you enjoy chases or do you enjoy downs and hooks? Wanting chases without pallets or windows nearby is wanting guaranteed downs.
I mean it is kind of sad that most killers either need to use relatively "broken killers" to have a chance - or just lose more often than not.
You do not have to do this. Just try to get good with someone you like if that's what you want out of it. I'd never play a killer I don't enjoy, or that I hate going against. I'd never play Blight, Nurse, Ghoul, or Jason. I play who I think has fun abilities or who I can do cool stuff with. There are GFs out there with 90% KRs. You just have to invest the time. Plateauing can happen too though. Like @NeverSolus said, you can find fun beyond winning. It's your choice what's fun for you.
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@HexSlugged said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4096737#Comment_4096737
maybe its egotistical but i have played the game off and on for 10 years and i "think" i am pretty good at have even headed opinions(except when im being bodied by a survivor team in game lol) and while you are not wrong in that personal experience(in some ways) is a better way to form an opinion i think thats not necessarily required with someone at my level of game knowledge (not that it means i am 100% right or right at all)
there are easily 50 perks we could both name that are useless in game and we have never even used them. Now we dont have to have used them to know they are useless. we know they are useless intuitively because we didnt boot the game up for the first time and we understand what numbers equal to more or less.
This is how i feel with CE.
I think i understand the game and chase enough to recognize issues with it even if i dont have alot of experience personally.
that being said to be clear my mind can always be changed but with my experience and my game knowledge i just dont see this perk not being old dead hard problematic(worse actually, old dead hard wasnt THAAAAAAAAT bad tho it did need a nerf) if adopted large scale with people who understand the fundamentals of the game.
I also like to form opinions and argue for things even if it doesnt directly impact me. I do care about other people experiences.
for example, i have no issue with tunneling and camping. killers have every right to do it. but i also understand thats not a fun experience for the person its being done to and ive had it done to me. SO i do not try to tunnel or camp unless i believe its the smartest move in the moment but i dont want people to be miserable so if they arent playing dirty but my main build on killers can get very nasty if i need it to (the third seal, ruin, thrill and undying tho i will make changes but my builds really rely around the third seal, i truly believe its a completely slept on perk and can be one of the strongest perks in the game excluding comms.
I know that slugging a person when it isnt needed isnt fun. its valid, but not fun and i have empathy so i wont seek to remove someone fun intentionally.
same as with perks. even if idc about the perk or it doesnt affect me directly ill still form an opinion and argue for or against it if i have sufficient info to do so.
the difference is (imo) between a coordinated team and this stack on ateam is literally how powerful this can be with competent loopers. the swf parts irrelevant so far in my calculations, its simply what can a confident looper do with this perk on especially if added with a comms team that knows what they are doing.
With swf teams if they arent the overly altruistic type(which while insanely annoying is also easiest to beat) taking the tools they all have already and add in the ability to get out of chase "free" so easily with no cool down and no real limitations when it comes to how loops themselves are set up with TL walls and other square tiles, buildings, or indoor maps.
Does ce matter at a half height loop? not at all. on lerys or some of the mains or auto haven type tiles, i see CE as being insanely 1 sided when used by people who can already loop well. If the perk remained as is and did not become meta then not that big of a deal to me. if this perk as it is became meta and multiple people used it per match like they do other perks im quite scared for the future of my chases because for better or for worse i have spend 1— years understanding chase to work a certain way and here comes a perk that completely upends that. if i could turn chase music down so that i can really focus on environmental sounds i genuinely would be more likely to be ok with the perk existing because i can and have killed people over hearing footsteps. but man its really hard to catch it at times when your hearing pots and pans smashed together in your eardrum at max volume.
as another aside, just wanted to say i enjoy talking with you. ive read many of your posts and you have never been spiteful or rude as much of the community has been (i have been a bit snarky at times myself tho i dont approve of myself doing that) and even though we have different perspectives i find this to be a good quality conversation and i do appreciate your perspective.
I mean, basing it on your overall experience is half of it. We have a lot of people in the forum who seem to barely play the game based on things they say and hours they post, yet they tend to agree with their favorite CC or go along with the mass uproar if it favors their preferred role. I just think the other half is allowing something to exist for a little while and seeing where it goes, and maybe letting it steer the game in different directions.
we know they are useless intuitively because we didnt boot the game up for the first time and we understand what numbers equal to more or less.
I think this does work better with bad perks. Some yeah, you can just read the description and know that it ain't the one. There are perks people sleep on too though. I tend to run off meta and I do fine. Those perks are less predictable when everyone runs the same 15 perks all the time, and a lack of relealizing what I'm ruining in time to counter it often wins me matches on both sides.
I also like to form opinions and argue for things even if it doesnt directly impact me. I do care about other people experiences.
I do this too, particularly for soloq and newer players, but it's stil based on my personal experiences and understanding. I'm not saying you shouldn't advocate for or against things that don't affect you, I'm saying your views shouldn't mirror a CC or a mass opinon just because it's the current view. I'm also not saying you are, I'm just saying it shouldn't be a thing. I also can't stand it when people with 500 hours go "but what about my favorite upper MMR CC? It's so hard for them." Ok, so? Is it hard for you? Is this your job? I get being upset that your 100 hour friend is getting tunneled and wants to quit and using that to understand how lopsided and discouraging this game can be, but I don't get using higher-hour money-making players with motives and bias as an example.
my builds really rely around the third seal, i truly believe its a completely slept on perk and can be one of the strongest perks in the game excluding comms.
I'm pretty glad it's slept on. I think it's a despicable perk and Blindness is a status effect that should not exist. People going second or being left slugged because their teammates simply don't know where they are is horribly unfair.
This is kind of ironic though, isn't it? You're favoirte perk is one that can create some very unfair situations that are pretty hard to counter, kinda like Elusive in chase. I think a lot of perks are pretty damn unfair. Me downing two people through a floor because of Nurse's Calling is unfair too. This game is more random than fair.
If the perk remained as is and did not become meta then not that big of a deal to me
That's the problem though. It's getting nerfed right out the gate. It'll never have a chance to be meta. And Iike I said, a new meta on survivor could lead to a new meta on killer. But it won't if nothing ever changes.
And thanks. Amicable conversations are always good. That was the idea of forums before social media melted everyone's brains. There's plenty of snark in my lengthy catalog of posts, but not during a proper talk.