End Game
Base kit BT in endgame is so annoying especially if the survivor(s) coming to save are healthy. Like depending on where you even hook them and what killer you're playing, after they get off hook you can't do anything but stare as they leave.
My suggestion bring back hook grabs, it was meant to punish bad unhooks. Can't really say anything about camping when anti camp is in the game, yes anticamp is in the game but if you don't want to bring it back fully at least add it back in endgame only.
If not in end game make it a perk with a cooldown or something
Comments
You should be able to trade hooks most of the time. If a survivor team can pull off a hook save without giving up a trade, then I just tip my cap to them for a job well done. I don’t think killers should be entitled to free endgame kills.
Im not saying it should be a free kill but it shouldn't feel as easy. The only way you'll get a trade is if the same person decides to take a hit again and actually trade
This doesn't make sense to me.
Survivor endgame has been nerfed to the point where basekit BT is all that's left (aside from teamwork, which is a toss up). You don't think there should be a free kill, but you think you should be able to healthy hook grab during a part of the game where you're encouraged to camp. Those two statements contradict each other.
This argument comes up a lot. And to be honest I don't want to see survivors nerfed for endgame saves. I play both roles equally and find that 0k games are pretty rare.
When you get a 0k as killer it is immensely frustrating, i get that. But I also feel it's super unfair to punish survivors for doing well. Throwing killers a free kill if they get an endgame hook just isn't necessary.
The basekit bt makes it viable to pull off a clean save during endgame for a 4 man out. But the timing and coordination required has to be flawless. Otherwise killer snowballs and can secure more downs and hooks. Usually you can only manage this with high skill players and fully coordinated swfs.
And we really don't need hook grabs back, it's a very unhealthy mechanic that applied far too much pressure both in early and late game. Trading for a hook is fine. But getting grbbed off the hook without getting the unhook is pretty much a game ender. A situation where two players are on hook next to each other pretty much instantly loses the game for survivors. I remember back when hook grabs were a thing and you would see so many proxy or straight up face camping killers that would just chain hook after hook with little effort.
'pulling off' something that is 100% consistent and requires no mechanical execution of note is not really a good way of putting it
Pulling a clean save against a killer who can freely face camp during endgame can hardly be described as 100% consistent and requiring no mechanical execution. It isn't easy to pull off and can easily result in a hook trade or snowball.
Hook grabs were terrible and I am glad they're gone. They were what made face-camping or Insidious-camping so powerful back in the day. If you let killers have hook grabs in Endgame, guess what no one but the giga-SWFs will go for Endgame saves anymore if the killer is facecamping.
I agree that 15 seconds is too long. It makes it too dang easy. 2 healthy survivors go for the save simultaneously, the killer hits one and while they're in the wiping animation the other survivor saves. The injured survivor is way off in the lead to the gate and the other 2 survivors can tank a hit each. This practically makes the save free as long as the hook was within 60m of an open gate.
After the generators are complete basekit BT should be 8 seconds. Then saves past 32m from the gate aren't so free anymore. I remember when that used to be the way it was and it made for some exciting escapes, or unfortunate demises. Heck it'd still be longer than 32m since the unhooked gets haste now.
go for unhook>killer is forced to hit you>killer is animation locked>teammate unhooks>unhooked survivor bodyblocks you
it is 100% consistent excepting specific killer powers that counter it, there is nothing the killer can do to avert it, there is no mechanical execution involved
It isn't that cut and dried, there are an awful lot more variables. Human error and skill expression for a start, even a slight mistime in the unhook, like taking the hit a second or so early means a hook trade. Tunneling isn't generally the best move, usually you want to go for the person getting the save, if you hit a third party and someone else goes fpr the unhook then commit to the one you hit originally. It all depends on how you play it. Face camping is pretty easy, and occasionally you will lose a kill and get a 0k but it's hardly consistent. The easy to play it is to get a hit pre unhook. Then that player is at risk of a down. The planning ahead is also important. If you are on 1 or 2 gens left or endgame then when you do secure a hook run for a hook that is further from exit gates, or is tactically dangerous for a save i.e. basement, on top of a mound etc.
Even if you have a healthy surv bodyblocking, keeping up a consistent bodyblock all the way up to the gate isn't easy, even an m1 killer can cut them off, because they can't afford to take the shortest route a lot of time beacuse open ground is risky. They'll path to pallets/vaults so you can cut the cornera and head straight for gate. Certain (well over half the killer roster) killers can counterplay this with their basekit anyway powers, ranged killers, traversal killers, not to mention perks. You did mention that but also instantly dismiss it because it doesn't prove your point.
Just because you'll occasionally lose a kill in this situation doesn't make it a given conclusion every time you get an endgame hook.
if your group is failing endgame saves at great regularity the issue is between the chair and the keyboard, the timing is beyond generous
Actually I'm baseing this more on my killer experience. I counterplay survs doing this all the time. I'll lose the odd surv every now and then but it's rare, vast majority of the time I'm able to secure another down and drag my victim deeper into the map to make the next save attempt even more risky.
Don't make the mistake of thinking I'm a survivor tribal who thinks every game should be a 0k. I play both roles extensively and advocate for balance, not a one sided advantage.
I just finished up a match that should have been a 0k after how bad I played and how well they played and I flipped it into a 3k by slugging three and chasing the last one (the one they saved) out after a botched bit of altrusim. It is not 100% consistent.
soloq shitters being impossibly bad at the game does not factor into game balance, nobody who isn't inting ever 'botches' a safe 4out
Unhooks are by no means a safe bet against most killers. Basekit BT being a thing in endgame feels quite fair in most scenarios, at least for me.
Nerrfed?
You live in which dimension. All I know is through years hook grabs are gone so pros for survivor, some meta second chance perks such as ds,otr are turned off so cons for survivors, the antihook protection is still there with buff time in full time 15 seconds with haste so pros for survivors.
Now tell me thats bad for survivor, anticamp was never in endgame and was only meant for time of the trial when gens are a thing so killer doesnt hard camp close to hook or facecamps but devs cleary stated they know in endgame killer has nothing so guarding a hook is must.
SO again some very strong perks dont work -
Killers cant grab +
Antihook protection stays there with full time of 15 seconds with haste +
So what negative survivors have in endgame compare to old days? Maybe they cant use ds but thats been gone more then 5 years ago, so nowdays survivors are strongest in endgame then ever actualy so Idk where you see that allmighty nerf when they have more compare to what they had 5 years ago.
Your argument is getting pretty weak if you've got to just assume that anyone who can't pull a safe unhook under the killers nose is automatically bad at the game.
Have you ever considered that killers who can't counterplay this situation might have a skill issue? Like i said before. I very rarely lose an endgame hook without securing another down. And my mmr throws some pretty solid teams at me, I regularly get ttv squads, 4 man stacks, and teams of high skill survivors. I'm not just bullying soloq wet blankets. I get co-ordinated teams who are damn good at the game, they have to be good to get me to 5 gens when I'm running a solid build and not just messing around with sub par killers and meme builds. And i still regularly punish them in endgame situations.
It will happen, I've pulled it off before as surv and had it pulled against me too. But it isn't a forgone conclusion in the way you're making out, you have to manage a perfect sequence of actions and have the killer not counterplsy properly for it to work. And if you lose a lot of survivors like this then you need to look at how you counterplay these situations.
we can 3v1 if you want, play 100 rounds
you as trapper and me and my friends as survs trying to unhook, i guarantee we will get 3out 100 times out of that 100
You just explained it yourself. A bunch of perks turn off that weren't like that before in order to give Killer an easier chance at securing kills. Survivors don't have any comparable "catch up". Base kit BT is the bare minimum they can do, honestly.
I personally dont think the bt-timer is a problem. If you have no kill and survivor are smart enough to not go down far from the gates + have enough time to reset and open a gate, they should have an almost guaranteed 4 out.
That said against an average killer two-man-saving is completely free. It was one of the first things i showed to two new players. And in the rare case we reach the endgame (bc having a clear weak link is hard to play around), they have an easy time doing it.
But the "average" killer is not as common like some years ago. In most of the matches you will play against a killer who has a tool against it. Lower cooldown like projectile killer, instadowns, slowdown like Clown or just fast movement speed, etc.
So if you really want to argue you should probably clarify exactly which killer you mean. A team which fails against a trapper is just bad, against Huntress its her fault if you succeed and against Billy its a miracle.
Pretty positive they weren't soloq but that's quite a change from "100% consistent" to "except against the majority of players". There are also hooks that are positioned in a way that if you facecamp it's actually impossible to unhook. There's no prompt. There are also instadown and ranged killers. There's also the basement.
But "100 consistent".
jumping over a pit in mario is 100% consistent if you press the right buttons, the player being bad doesn't mean that mario needs his jump height increased
And what would that prove? 🤣 that 3 players running builds for endurance etc could manage an unhook? Or that I could counter it by spamming traps around the hook or running my own perk build tailor made to counter the situation? I don't need to prove my point because everyone who's reading this post will know that endgame unhooks are risky and not the 100% gimme that you're making it out to be.
who said anything about perks?
So then it wouldn't be like an actual live match then? Again it doesn't really prove a point
This was a free, undeserved kill given by RNG. This person cannot be unhooked. It's not possible with the angle of the hook and me standing in front of them. So tell me how it's 100% consistent.
Its not just basekit bt its +10% haste which makes huge difference and these perks are off for a good reason, because perks like otr or ds would make unhooked survivors untoucheable especialy ds.
Killers lost lot more:
+10 seconds on hook for each state
anhook protection which is 15 seconds of bt and haste which is more then old bt ever was
So as I named it the cons goes to killer more then to survivor.
Coldflame is 100% right and still being downvoted, dont like to be negative but what a joke of a discussion forum lol
Killer with dps of m1 attack physically cant secure hook/get successful trade against 3 healthy survivors, framedata of m1 hit mathematically disprove such opportunity if save played in right order, arguing against it is equivalent of unironically stating that 2+2=5, but ig common sense and axioms hold zero value if we discuss killer issues
The save process doesnt require reaction check, hard cooperation or niche positioning, killer couldnt fake, block or outwait it in any way either, its literally basic knowledge check which result in lose-lose situation at killer end, if some survivors could still somehow mess up lose-lose save process which as stated earlier not even mechanically challenging it doesnt mean that issue shouldnt be addressed, like some of cheaters still mess up and get killed after they couldnt press speedhack in time, does this mean that we should let them roam free unbanned because killers still could "potentially" catch them? theres simply no good arguments to keep endgame saves in current state, its either blatant ignore of gamedata or some kind of reach.
My suggestion is dynamic unhook speed that adjusted to ammount of survivors in 32m hook radius or return of old grabs, also endgame bt shouldnt provide passive speedboost
I feel like any minor disagreement someone has is just going to result in a down vote. Some people do it and don't even explain why
If the person is even unhookable they only had one or zero hook states. If everyone else is alive and healthy then you did a bad job. Why do survivors deserve debuffs in a match they were already winning? What is the argument for the easy pity kill in end game? Deny it all you want but end game kills do happen. Some times whole team wipes too. End game still requires strategy from you too. When to hook, or whether to slug instead, are things you have to consider.
"If the person is even unhookable they only had one or zero hook states. If everyone else is alive and healthy then you did a bad job"
This scenario is typical for killers that chose to spread hooks instead of turbo-tunneling and it resulted in 6-8 stages and 0 kills at reaching endgame, its not looking like "bad job" in the slightest in matter of fact its hilarious how killers that chose to not tunnel is the most affected group of this uncounterable strategy, also even if killer got game with 1 state at 0 gens im believe it still shouldnt result in free unhook regardless
"Why do survivors deserve debuffs in a match they were already winning?"
Because it force lose-lose situation that could be outplayed only if survivors would somehow fail the most mediocre and intuitive check in the entire game, i cant believe that im unironically have to say it but here we go- skill expression of one side should never require necessary failure of other side to be pulled off, the fact that 3 healthy survivors got to endgame should not guarantee in potentially 100% lose-lose save
"What is the argument for the easy pity kill in end game?"
Firstly dbd have no problems with giving pity escape via hatch for last survivor and pity escape on top of another pity escape with gate/key escape. Also i never stated that this kill should be free, closest way to make it skillful competition is return of hook grabs so each side could have chance to outmindgame other but even then without some unhookspeed nerf it might still be blockable
"Deny it all you want but end game kills do happen. Some times whole team wipes too. End game still requires strategy from you too. When to hook, or whether to slug instead, are things you have to consider."
I agree that even mediocre knowledge check could and will be failed which also could eventually result in a team wipe, its still doesnt make that argument much better than- "cheater could potentially lose power at home which will result in dc and victory, so lets keep things as they are", good hook positioning and slugging will give advantage but its not fixing lose-lose problem beside hooks with rare outside collision ig
At the end of the day anti camp is implemented, anti 3 gen is implemented, extended bt and hooktimers are implemented too, even 3 gen merchant was not that lose-loseish (comp team still won) as those type of endgame saves, this phenomenon have to go
Sure its strange too but i could somehow understand disagreeing with subjective topics without elaboration, but seeing person that basically wrote "the sky is blue" in dbd terms getting downvoted is dystopian bhvr
But tell me why a person should be able to play this bad and have a chance at a kill just because it's end game? I've had these matches where I do this bad and I don't feel entitled to any freebies from the game. And why does that one unlucky survivor who did well the whole match deserve a loss to a bad killer? There are times when I commit to someone when I know the last gen is about to pop because they're my only chance at a down. Why should that player now be faced with a stronger chance of a potential loss after keeping me busy so long? If survivors had team win conditions there could be an argument, but being on the hook leaves you at the mercy of your teammate's abilities and has nothing to do with your own skill, yet you get the loss if they decide to leave.
I don't know why people use this as an equivalent all the time. A killer is one person. If you under perform, the responsibility is solely yours. If a good survivor gets paired with three potatoes they have no control over the fact that those potatoes are not gonna make it. Matches would feel 100% hopeless in many scenarios just 30s in. The hatch makes them feel 90% hopeless instead. And a 3k with a hatch escape is still a win for the killer. A 1k in end game is still a loss. So why are people so obsessed with this one free kill?
Comparing normal things in the game to cheating is just disingenuous.
It's also not just a knowledge check. Solos can't communicate. There are many who won't even participate in saves. Even in SWF you sometimes blow saves by miscommunication. If survivors got debuffs in end game it would make some difficult saves impossible and people would stop performing them all together.
"But tell me why a person should be able to play this bad and have a chance at a kill just because it's end game? I've had these matches where I do this bad and I don't feel entitled to any freebies from the game. And why does that one unlucky survivor who did well the whole match deserve a loss to a bad killer?"
Because they was able to down and hook survivor which means that killer should have a chance to secure that kill if he play it right, correct me if im wrong but your wording- "why a person should be able to play this bad and have a chance at a kill just because it's end game" mean that last hooked survivor might as well insta tp to exit gate in endgame if you think that killer shouldnt have fair chances for comeback? also last gen pop could be delayed to the point of all team reset and positioning to instaopen gates, in that case even if killer catches survivors on one gates it would still take 1hit+1 bodyblock to get to the other which already opened atp-its not 100% strategy but its pretty common practice and it doesnt require astronomical skill to pull off, so if team allowed that down and hook at 0 gens to begin with its mistake that should be punished by fair endgame standoff, not the uncounterable 3 bodyblock circus we have at the moment.
"I don't know why people use this as an equivalent all the time. A killer is one person. If you under perform, the responsibility is solely yours. If a good survivor gets paired with three potatoes they have no control over the fact that those potatoes are not gonna make it. Matches would feel 100% hopeless in many scenarios just 30s in. The hatch makes them feel 90% hopeless instead. And a 3k with a hatch escape is still a win for the killer. A 1k in end game is still a loss. So why are people so obsessed with this one free kill?"
Killer could be massively outperked to the point where individual chase skills and macro knowledge would change ammount of hookstates but not result of the match (mainly due to funny Taurie perk), as i stated earlier this unhook situation could occur at 6-8 stages
"If a good survivor gets paired with three potatoes they have no control over the fact that those potatoes are not gonna make it. Matches would feel 100% hopeless in many scenarios just 30s"
I believe that captain should go down with his ship and every survivor should treat themselves as captains of own lobby, i singlehandedly turned so many hopeless matches into 2-3 escapes because i didnt considered hiding for hatch and actually pushed gens even when "potatoes" did nothing entire match
"Comparing normal things in the game to cheating is just disingenuous.
It's also not just a knowledge check. Solos can't communicate. There are many who won't even participate in saves. Even in SWF you sometimes blow saves by miscommunication. If survivors got debuffs in end game it would make some difficult saves impossible and people would stop performing them all together."
Normal things? if you could link eldritch god to computer with 30*10^12 hours in dbd, ability to perfectly read opponent mind,0 imput lag, 0 ping, 0 reaction time and put him against 4 survivors which got 10 hours of unhook practice the creature will get 0 successful trades out of this situation, if theoretical embodiment of skill cant do anything about this unhook strat then how its disingenuous to compare it to cheating?
Going for highlighted hook and wait in area around it for arrival of your teammates does not require SFW communication, as i said its basic knowledge check, existence of certain survivors that cant handle risks which coming with saves is not a valid reason to keep endgame unhook 100% save if everyone came
If people are coordinating that much they can have the save for all I care. I do stuff like this in SWF but the problem is most solos aren't. You want debuffs that will mostly effect people who can't communicate since they're already at a disadvantage.
If you have 6-8 hookstages there's a good chance whoever you down is already on death hook anyway. If you decide to chase someone with zero hookstates when you know one gen is about to pop that's usually a bad choice.
This is not fair in a game with bad matchmaking and no communication. If you load into a game and people decide to throw because they don't like the killer you shouldn't just be doomed. It's not as though every match is fair and balanced and everyone tries their best.
You are just being ridiculous with that last bit. I don't go a single session without turnng an L to a W in end game. If you get a kill 0% of the time in these situations that's a you thing because I know that's not the common experience.
Because the same topics are brought up constantly and people are tired of repeating themselves.
Another good Steve was lost on that day.