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I am good with the patch as is (killer main). They basically killed all gen regression perks and nerfed healing to make the game more chase orientated. The gen kick meta is boring and I much prefer to chase survivors.
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It took BHVR 7 years to add auto bloodwebs. Why do you think?
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We did it guys. Dead Hard is no more after 6 years.
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Thank God. They actually did it. The horror. It's over.
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Even BHVR doesn't know what your'e talking about. What's the build?
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@ImNotBobDylan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3269796#Comment_3269796
So you're admitting Otz was wrong on DH, and at the same time totally believing him when he talks about the exact same perk now...? Who tells you he won't change his mind in 2 months? Speaking about Otz, since you think he is a reliable data point to decide balance, his killrate has been 76% since the June patch, does that sound balanced to you? Can you explain why when he's playing as a survivor he escapes far less than <50% ? Can you explain why almost no survivor streamer can reliably get >50% escape, even the ones with 4000 hours, despite DH being so free and easy to get value with?
I agree with you that the perk is annoying. Especially against high ping killers. But you and Otz never play with this perk so you can't realize it is WAY more annoying to use on the survivor side. Watch survivor streamers for a while. They miss most of their DH, once in a whilethey get a baby killer and that one ends up on Youtube, but most of the real games, they die without the perk proc'ing and then they spend the whole game complaining about ping. If DH was OP, then the killrates would not be at 61%, and killer mains wouldn't be able to get 10+ win streaks against survivors who use it, and I'm not even talking about Otz and popular streamers, I've reached 36 myself (all 4K, recorded) and almost every friend of mine has reached 10+.
Yes, DH is still the best exhaustion perk, but that does not tell us much, since you are almost forced to use an exhaustion perk in a survivor build, and you cannot use more than one at the same time, so basically, DH wins by default, if DH is 1% better than SB, then DH should always have 100% pickrate and SB 0%. Then when you make DH slightly less good than SB, suddenly SB will get 100%.
"So you're admitting Otz was wrong on DH, and at the same time totally believing him when he talks about the exact same perk now...?"
That video was released on 24 July 2022. The Dead Hard rework patch was on 20 July 2022. That video was literally made based on 3-4 days of experience of new DH. Those were his first impressions of the perk and were expected to change as he gained more experience.
"Who tells you he won't change his mind in 2 months?"
The difference now is that his opinion is based on 4 months of gameplay and not 3-4 days. He has far more experience with the perk and his opinion is unlikely to significantly change.
"Speaking about Otz, since you think he is a reliable data point to decide balance, his killrate has been 76% since the June patch, does that sound balanced to you? Can you explain why when he's playing as a survivor he escapes far less than <50% ? Can you explain why almost no survivor streamer can reliably get >50% escape, even the ones with 4000 hours, despite DH being so free and easy to get value with?"
No need for me to explain this. The point of this thread is that Dead Hard is the most annoying survivor perk not that Dead Hard is strong. Forcing the killer to wait out DH before every down is poor design. The thread also isn't about DH proccing or not. It's about always having to wait out Dead Hard before hitting the survivor.
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@ImNotBobDylan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3269773#Comment_3269773
The point is to make sure you're not full of bs and actually play both sides of the perk before claiming it is unbalanced. You claim DH is OP? Then play with it and prove it's OP, it shouldn't be very hard since you pretend DH is "free" right? Because, if you're only here to relay Otzdarva's quotes, then I'd rather discuss with Otzdarva or wait for his next video about how DH is OP, rather than have someone quote 30 sec out of context. In case you didn't know, the last time Otz discussed the survivor meta perks, he even rated Sprint Burst higher than DH https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TP1us6aSJSk
So to me it looks like you're only quoting 20 sec of Otz's random survivor complaint - while he was probably on his 59th winstreak and still got 4K along the way - and concluding that because a top 5% MMR killer sometimes loses to DH then that must be the reason why you're losing to DH too.
DH requires skill to use and the fact you can't even recognize this shows that you haven't played with the perk at all. The game has never been as easy for killer as it is now, especially when broken s*it like NOED and DMS stil exist that give more undeserved wins than all the DHs in the world (at least, for 95% of the playerbase).
Wasting 2 sec of killer time at the cost of a perk is ridiculously not worth it. By your own logic then Sprint Burst and Head On should be way more OP.
"You claim DH is OP?"
Actually I didn't. I just said it was the most annoying survivor perk in the game. Though, to answer your question, I and most streamers consider DH a top tier perk.
"Then play with it and prove it's OP, it shouldn't be very hard since you pretend DH is "free" right?"
No need for me to play survivor to prove my point. I claimed that DH was an annoying perk. This is something that you will only know from playing killer.
"Because, if you're only here to relay Otzdarva's quotes, then I'd rather discuss with Otzdarva or wait for his next video about how DH is OP, rather than have someone quote 30 sec out of context."
I've been watching Otz for a long time and he very frequently voices his hate for Dead Hard. This isn't just a one-time situation where he is mad. Here's a more detailed explanation of why he hates it https://clips.twitch.tv/CloudyUgliestChickenSquadGoals-ih6QsWm5I2w7X-cE.
"In case you didn't know, the last time Otz discussed the survivor meta perks, he even rated Sprint Burst higher than DH https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TP1us6aSJSk"
False. That video was released near the DH rework when people didn't have much experience with it. His current opinion is that DH is the strongest exhaustion perk. See https://youtu.be/QEA7Pc8_NsA?t=1891. You can also watch that section for Otz's opinion on the strength of the perk since you wanted that.
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@ImNotBobDylan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3269689#Comment_3269689
It's not for free. Both the killer and the survivor have to use their brain. If the survivor is incompetent then he'll get nothing out of DH. I play both with AND against DH all the time and the perk is close to balanced. That is, balanced if the killer has decent ping, because if the killer is VPN'ing then DH is useless, as BHVR for some reason thinks it's a good idea to have a 0.5 sec reaction-based ability be server-sided.
Yeah please share your clips of insane clutch DHs, I'd be curious. You're going to share your own clips right? Oh never mind you won't, because you've never played with the perk, you've only seen it on Youtube.
It is free. The survivor just doesn't have to press Dead Hard early and the killer is forced to wait out the DH, which wastes their time for free.
"Yeah please share your clips of insane clutch DHs, I'd be curious. You're going to share your own clips right? Oh never mind you won't, because you've never played with the perk, you've only seen it on Youtube."
I don't know what your point is here. What's the purpose of me sharing clips of clutch DHs?
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@Grigerbest said:
Oh come on... You can safely use a DH in front of the killer only 1 time, when killer don't know if you have one.
After first use, the killer will expect it for the rest of the match, and just wait it up...
The main problem with DH were solved (distance), I think this is the healthiest and fair perk now.
"After first use, the killer will expect it for the rest of the match, and just wait it up..."
That's exactly what we are complaining about here. The need to wait out Dead Hard or get heavily punished. Reread my post.
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@ImNotBobDylan said:
Wow so much "value" gained from DH, he got downed 2 sec later thanks to it. BHVR pls nerf!!!
The main point of discussion here is that Dead Hard is annoying. It being strong is a different topic. Though, if you want a scenario where Dead Hard buys a lot of time, I could probably find a clip where Dead Hard procs and extends the chase for a minute.
Secondly, you are forgetting that you have to wait out Dead Hard for most chases, so you need to add up the time wasted from all of the chases rather than a single chase. Say Dead Hard wastes 3 seconds per chase and you take 10 chases, that's 30 seconds of time wasted every match for free.
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@Shroompy said:
What do you mean dropping his guards anywhere else is just not worth it? There are several other ways I can think of using this guys power completely differently than Artist, who is a completely different killer.
While having The Carnifex, zone a Survivor out by being able to quickly destroy a pallet. (break time 2 seconds, as opposed to the others which is 6 seconds) He actually breaks walls and pallets faster than you do.
Alternatively, if you see a Survivor run towards a strong window with a Breakable Wall next to it, Carnifex is perfect for that. Send him to break the wall and you give yourself an opening
While having The Assassin or Jailer, send them to kick a generator to prevent any progress done to that gen for the duration of animation (6 seconds)
While having The Jailer, kick a gen and leave him to patrol it. His extended patrol time locks down an area much better than the other 2.
While having The Assassin, use him as an Ambush. Similar to how some times you influence a Survivors movements by sending them towards a trap as Trapper/Hag, or towards Victor/Charlottle as Twins, you can do the same as Knight and with the Assassin ready. The Assassin is the only one who I would say is actually useful for chasing. Since he moves at 4.4m/s and applies Deep Wounds on hit as opposed to the 4.1m/s the other 2 move at.
Im actually VERY excited for him to be released to live servers. I had a blast finding new ways to use his guards on PTB and Im sure there will be several other ways to use them that I havent found out yet
Immediately dropping his Guards is the best way to play Knight because the survivors will immediately run from the loop the moment you use your power. If you spend too long in your power, they will escape the loop. The ideal case is that you chase with your Guard to pincer them, so you don't want them to run from the loop.
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In before x100 Eruption
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I think the Knight will be fun for killer after these changes. The main issues with him was ai detection and not being able to cycle through his guards. Most of the time you will just drop your guard at a loop and chase with them, so the ai poorly tracking the survivor wasn't a major issue. The main issue was the Guard sometimes not seeing them and taking too long to activate, which may have been addressed by the changes. The change to allow the Knight to prematurely add a Guard's patrol also allows him to somewhat cycle through his Guards since you can just drop a Guard in front of you and hit them to cycle.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3268653#Comment_3268653
i find it funny they had decide to nerf his add-on's. He is almost more likely to be worse then better.
The funny part was that they didn't nerf his best addon, which is the one that gives him a speed boost.
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I'm a killer main and it's a good map for the killers I play. Though, for most killers, it's probably because there are many safe pallets that can be chained.
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Mmr isn't shared. Each killer has individual mmr.
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For killers, this patch probably. For survivors, probably when infinites were still a thing.
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Yes due to how unique the killer is
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Just you.
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@Terion said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3254409#Comment_3254409
well. By that logic Sadako and demo and pyramid head should have lightborn basekit too.
Hillbilly too
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Thank the lord.
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I still face camp with Bubba. I mostly do it in situations where the survivors can't finish all gens before the survivor dies or forcing a survivor to die when their hook timer is almost out.
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Almost every Clown I know runs Gin Bottle + Flask of Bleach because they're necessary for Clown to be able to run most loops. I think this gives an idea of what Clown needs.
He needs separate ammo for both bottles. You don't have enough ammo to use both purple and yellow bottles without the Gin Bottle addon. He needs separate ammo, so he can use both without being forced to run this addon.
I also think Flask of Bleach should be base kit and the addon should be changed to something else. Flask of Bleach is necessary to get the hit at many pallets. The most common Clown strat is standing at the pallet then throwing a yellow bottle at yourself and a purple one at the survivor. Flask of Bleach is needed most of the time for this strat to work. Whenever I do this, I almost always hit the survivor less than 0.5 seconds from them reaching the pallet. Without Flask of Bleach, they will reach the pallet and I won't get the hit.
These 2 changes are all Clown needs imo.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3233505#Comment_3233505
If we're assuming that survivors aren't being put with same-MMR killers... wouldn't that make the killer stats invalid as well?
The stats are representative of how top mmr killers are performing in general but may not be representative of a situation where both sides are similar mmr.
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@danielmaster87 said:
Their stats would be 100 minus the killer's kill rate.
That's only the case for the all mmr stat, but it may be different for the top 5% survivor stat. The top 5% stat for killers and survivors would only be the same if both were always facing similar mmr opponents. However, this isn't the case as the soft cap also allows survivors to face significantly lower mmr killers.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/351078/add-incentives-for-not-tunnelling
the perk your suggesting already exist, except they're weaker with drawbacks. Gift of pain gives 16% repair penalty when hooking a survivor on scourge hook. It has two drawbacks, the first is that the perk only works on one of the 4 unique hooks (adding rng to slowdown) and second is that survivor must heal. The other is dying light. dying light has 4 drawbacks. First the obsession is immune to the effects. The second is that perk turns off when obsession dies. The obsession gains 33% increase in altruistic actions. The bonus is 3% per hook. you need 4 hooks to get to 12% bonus, slightly more then your recommend 10%. The drawbacks of these perks are too high for anyone to use them. Remove all drawbacks of these perks and perhaps killer will reconsider these perks in their perk load out.
It also doesn't address the fundamental reason killers tunnel in the first place, which is that it's necessary to beat strong teams and it's stronger than splitting your hooks.
as long as killer win more by tunneling over using these perks, there is no reason for killer to change their gameplay. if you make killer lose while tunneling and these perk make you win more by not tunneling, then something might change.
I think you're misunderstanding my suggestion. I am suggesting adding base kit changes not perks that help when not tunnelling. You're right when you say that there's no reason to run these perks when killers could just tunnel. That's why base kit changes are necessary.
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@Biscuits said:
If the developers actually wanted to stop tunneling, they could fix it over night. I think the problem is the community sees it as something that is bad for the game, but the developers don't. They have made several statements along the lines of it being a "strategy".
They could do something as simple as having players gain no pips if someone is killed and they are the only hook stages in the game. Or have BBQ and chili be baseline and have it also get turned off if someone is tunneled. So at least while you are going against a killer who is climbing ranks, you won't get tunneled. And if you go against a killer who is farming BP, you won't get tunneled.
"They could do something as simple as having players gain no pips if someone is killed and they are the only hook stages in the game."
They don't do that because survivors could troll killers into depipping by throwing themselves at the killer. Also, killers could also accidentally tunnel if they aren't paying attention to who they hooked last. It has happened to Otz countless times when he gets DSed unexpectedly. Survivors can also all play the same survivor with the same outfit to make it difficult for the killer to identify the survivors, increasing the odds of accidental tunnelling occurring.
@AssortedSorting said:
The thing is, that splitting pressure across all 4 survivors is technically viable. The only downside is that the Killer needs to be able to consistently down survivors in a timely manner in order to apply any pressure at all. And this varies based on skill level, and items/perks/killers used.
Also IMO instead of creating methods that empower Killers for not tunneling, I'd rather see methods of empowering Survivors for when Killers tunnel. Things like being able to absorb hook states that others have to give them more time via some kind of ritual.
"The thing is, that splitting pressure across all 4 survivors is technically viable. The only downside is that the Killer needs to be able to consistently down survivors in a timely manner in order to apply any pressure at all. And this varies based on skill level, and items/perks/killers used."
It largely depends on the killer. High mobility killers like Nurse and Blight can achieve this but weak killers with no mobility like Myers and Trapper can't.
"Also IMO instead of creating methods that empower Killers for not tunneling, I'd rather see methods of empowering Survivors for when Killers tunnel. Things like being able to absorb hook states that others have to give them more time via some kind of ritual."
They've already done that. It's called Borrowed Time and DS. I also disagree with this approach because killers will still try to tunnel but they will try to play around the anti-tunnel perks, e.g. waiting out BT and DS. It also doesn't address the fundamental reason killers tunnel in the first place, which is that it's necessary to beat strong teams and it's stronger than splitting your hooks.
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@CaulDrohn said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3227359#Comment_3227359
Ok, I see we were talking about different things then. I was comparing old and new DH all the time for evaluating if new DH is stronger now or not. You compare it's success rate against M1 and killer powers. Imo we should compare old DH / new DH against M1 and powers seperately to assess which is stronger, but whatever.
"because you keep saying Dead Hard is the same against killers' power and their m1."
I keep saying the EFFECT of new DH once it triggers is the same for M1 and most powers. You get speed boost against both, and killer gets hit cooldown / power end. For most powers, it's just not different to hit new DH compared to regular M1 hit. Emphasis on the condition that DH is triggered! Of course the success rate (from the survivor perspective) may differ, as you pointed out, with M1 being harder to counter than powers (esp for M1 quick attacks, lunge attacks can be reacted to similar to powers).
But there are some killer powers that counter this: Legion Frency activating Mending on its own, DS just plain ignoring the endurance effect since spearing does not hit, Bubba being able to chainsaw through endurance and still catching up for a down (with chilis), trapper traps still able to catch you regardless of DH activating or not.
All this should be considered for decidiing if new DH is stronger than old DH:
Yes, new DH has the stronger effect when it triggers. BUT, does it trigger as often as old DH? You only have half a second compared to one full second. When you can use it reliably (e.g. against lunge attacks or certain powers), it sure is better. When you can't use it reliably (against quick attacks or some selected killer powers), its worse than before.
Of course players also adapt to this short comings. Thats why old DH was often used to extend the loop on the same tile, since using it in a dead zone would not help you. New DH can be used to get to another tile, so you would typically let yourself getting hit when its preditcable and convenient. Also we see more tactics like doing a 360 to bait out a quick attack. There sure is more skill involved with the new DH, since it's not as easy to use anymore, but when you are successful, you get a bigger effect.
All in all, new DH is stronger than old DH, but only when you manage to get hit at the right moment. So for seasoned players, it might be better, for newer players it might be worse than before. Can we agree on that?
I think you are getting lost about what we were arguing about. We were arguing about the strength of new and old Dead Hard against killer powers. My argument is that against most killer powers, the odds of successfully using new and old Dead Hard is about the same but the effect of new Dead Hard is stronger, so new Dead Hard is overall stronger against killer powers. For example, against Blight, you just have to Dead Hard once he is charging and close to you, so the odds of successfully using old and new Dead Hard is about the same, but new Dead Hard gives a speed boost, which is stronger than just a missed attack. Therefore, new Dead Hard is stronger.
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@CaulDrohn said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3227244#Comment_3227244
"The main difference to an m1 is the higher chance of successfully using a Dead Hard against a killer power compared to an m1. You have to factor odds of success into the strength of a perk. A perk that works 100% of the time will be stronger than one that works 1% of the time."
What do you mean with "successfully using" it? With old DH having one second iframes compared to 0.5s endurance, it was even easier to make the killer power miss. So when avoiding the down by an attack is the success condition, old DH excells the new one. But, if your success condition is to live longer, then of course new DH helps you more.
"I will have to disagree. I believe that getting the speed boost from endurance is much stronger than simply making the killer miss their attack with their power. If the survivor is in a dead zone or area with weak loops, this is 100% the case as the speed boost will allow them to make it to stronger loop. You're essentially arguing that Dead Hard would be as strong if no speed boost was given for successful use."
I did already agree that the speed boost is stronger than missing the attack. All I'm saying is, it does not change anything about having to recharge the power and/or aim with it again. The only difference is they get farther away with the speed boost now, but thats just the same for M1 attacks. Yes, new DH makes it harder to down someone with a power, but thats not bc it works better against powers, but it's effect lets them gain more distance, and thats the case for M1 and powers.
"What do you mean with "successfully using" it? With old DH having one second iframes compared to 0.5s endurance, it was even easier to make the killer power miss. So when avoiding the down by an attack is the success condition, old DH excells the new one. But, if your success condition is to live longer, then of course new DH helps you more."
I meant exactly what I said. Using Dead Hard against some killers' power is easier than using it against a m1 attack. This isn't a comparison between old and new Dead Hard. It's a comparison between using DH against a killer's power and their m1 because you keep saying Dead Hard is the same against killers' power and their m1. For example, if Billy is charging right at you with a Chainsaw, that's going to be very easy to Dead Hard since you just have to Dead Hard once he is close, making it a guaranteed Dead Hard. However against an m1 attack, the killer sometimes has a chance to bait it out, making it not a guaranteed Dead Hard. Using Dead Hard against Billy's Chainsaw is more likely to succeed compared to Billy's M1, which is one of the reasons why Dead Hard is stronger against some killer's powers compared to their m1.
"I did already agree that the speed boost is stronger than missing the attack. All I'm saying is, it does not change anything about having to recharge the power and/or aim with it again. The only difference is they get farther away with the speed boost now, but thats just the same for M1 attacks. Yes, new DH makes it harder to down someone with a power, but thats not bc it works better against powers, but it's effect lets them gain more distance, and thats the case for M1 and powers."
I don't know where you are going with this but this is my point:
New Dead Hard = speed boost and make it to new loop when it works = stronger
Old Dead Hard = only miss attack = weaker
New Dead Hard has the stronger effect. I don't care whether or not the killer has to reuse their power.
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@CaulDrohn said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3226025#Comment_3226025
But all this is not different to a regular M1 hit, thats my point. If you missed you blink attack due to old DH, you will hit it and grant endurance with new DH. Surv. will get speed boost, killer attack cooldown. Nurse or Blight will have to recharge carges, regardless of missing bc of old or deep wound hit bc of new DH. Pig will have to go crouch again, billy has to rev chainsaw again to continue chase. Myers just does an M1 attack to begin with. Mastermind was published after the rework, if I'm correct.
I may be very pedantic here, I know, but all this is just an iteration of what happens when hitting with M1. Of iframes being replaced with endurance. It did not get any harder to hit ppl with your power due to new DH. It actually got easier, bc. you will ALWAYS hit now. But of course they won't go down due to endurance, so you have to chase longer. Or abandon the chase so they can waste time mending.
"But all this is not different to a regular M1 hit, thats my point."
The main difference to an m1 is the higher chance of successfully using a Dead Hard against a killer power compared to an m1. You have to factor odds of success into the strength of a perk. A perk that works 100% of the time will be stronger than one that works 1% of the time.
"If you missed you blink attack due to old DH, you will hit it and grant endurance with new DH. Surv. will get speed boost, killer attack cooldown. Nurse or Blight will have to recharge carges, regardless of missing bc of old or deep wound hit bc of new DH. Pig will have to go crouch again, billy has to rev chainsaw again to continue chase. Myers just does an M1 attack to begin with. Mastermind was published after the rework, if I'm correct."
I will have to disagree. I believe that getting the speed boost from endurance is much stronger than simply making the killer miss their attack with their power. If the survivor is in a dead zone or area with weak loops, this is 100% the case as the speed boost will allow them to make it to stronger loop. You're essentially arguing that Dead Hard would be as strong if no speed boost was given for successful use.
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@CaulDrohn said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3225595#Comment_3225595
I'm not saying using old DH against legion frenzy was worth it all the time, it surely wasn't in 95% of the time. As you wrote, if you made legion miss his frenzy attack due to DH iframes, it made you the next target of them. But there were still rare situation where it would help to end the legion frency. E.g. when you are the forth/fifth in chain, to avoid the down. Or when you want to protect other teammates by making legion chase you instead. Old DH had this utility to it, which new DH does not have anymore. Thats all I'm saying.
You are right about Bubba, the iframes could totally fail you when in the open against his chainsaw. With speed boost from the hit, you might reach some loop with new DH. Still not guaranteed to get away (esp when Bubba has double chili), but better chances than before. Bc. Bubbas chainsaw does not stop on hit/miss, I would count this as another "special" interaction with DH. We would be on 3 worse (DS, Trapper, Legion) and two better (Trickster, Bubba) when only considering interaction with killer powers.
Don't get me wrong, I also believe new DH is (slightly) stronger than before. I just don't agree with claims that it's universally better. It is not, it lost utiltity against specific killer powers, but got better in it's general usage. And I really like that it's somewhat skill-dependent now, since the time frame for it's effect is so short.
It isn't just Bubba and Trickster. There are many killers where their special attack is very telegraphed or obvious when it will hit or occur. Due to the ease of using Dead Hard against them and the stronger effect, the new Dead Hard is stronger against their special power. More examples are:
Hillbilly
Nurse
Shape (the longer lunge gives more time to react)
Pig
Blight
Maybe Mastermind
I also think it's stronger against Plague since if you miss your Corrupt Purge against the old Dead Hard you can just shoot again. Against the new Dead Hard, they get a speed boost and make it to another loop. Plague can also charge her vomit for longer to potentially hit them through old Dead Hard.
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@CaulDrohn said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3224694#Comment_3224694
Even if "no one play Trapper", DH still does not counter traps anymore. So in this regard its weaker then before.
The legion rework allows legion to down someone with the fifth chain hit. So old DH could be used to prevent this fifth hit, but more importantly, break the chain by making them miss due to iframes. That does not work with new DH anymore, legion will still hit you and increase his chain. So against legion, new DH literally does nothing, except maybe for the fifth hit (don't now if you can prevent going down with new DH).
New DH does nothing against Deathslinger, the surv will still be harpooned. That Slinger may have received other nerfs is irrelevant to the claim that new DH is better than old, so we shouldn't count that in.
I explicitly mentioned those three killers because DH has a unique interaction with them (or no effect on them). Many of the other killer powers do not interact at all with DH (wailing bell, stalking, traps, gas), or it behaves the same as with regular M1 hits (chainsaw, hatchet, blink attack).
Sure, the effect on regular hits is better than before (on-hit speedbost + successful hit cooldown, compared to iframes + miss cooldown). Although you have to time it better now (0.5s vs 1s). But I wouldn't call that "working against killer powers", it's just working against hits.
So, maybe we can agree, that it's a bit more powerful when triggered on hits, but less powerful against specific killer powers.
I've played Legion against the old Dead Hard. Dead Hard didn't matter that much because a Legion wouldn't Frenzy an injured survivor, so if a Legion went for an injured survivor with Frenzy, that survivor would have to be the 2nd or 3rd survivor in his attack chain. Say the injured survivor was the 2nd survivor in the Frenzy chain, there would have to be a 3rd survivor nearby for the Frenzy chain to continue, which is fairly rare. It's also usually easy for Legion to outplay Dead Hard due to the high speed boost and the fact that an injured survivor wouldn't drop a pallet to avoid the Frenzy hit and if they did, that's good since it's a waste of a pallet. Something else to consider is that if a survivor Dead Harded to avoid the Frenzy, that survivor is injured and has no Dead Hard, meaning they are an excellent target for Legion to chase normally.
Sure, the effect on regular hits is better than before (on-hit speedbost + successful hit cooldown, compared to iframes + miss cooldown). Although you have to time it better now (0.5s vs 1s). But I wouldn't call that "working against killer powers", it's just working against hits.
I disagree with this interpretation. You have to consider Dead Hard as a whole to evaluate how powerful it is. For example, new Dead Hard is extremely strong against Bubba because Dead Hard is guaranteed to work against his Chainsaw whereas against old Dead Hard, Bubba would just keep chasing them until they die. It's clearly stronger against Bubba's power in this case.
@not_requested49 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3224777#Comment_3224777
In no world is he worse than freddy lol
either you are intentionally not ever picking up or placing traps or you are terrible at placing them somehow (which really isnt hard, you just place them at a window, its simple)
Its laughable that you actually think that, especially since trapper actually has addons that ste useful
The only POSSIBLE way he could be worse is if there were only 2 traps on the entire map, all his addons get nerfed into uselessness (like freddy's), his traps can get disarmed in 1.5 seconds, and his traps take 7 seconds to set, as well as the survivor being able to attempt escape every 0.5 seconds with a 50% chance to escape
Thats literally the only way he can be worse, but as none of this is true, he is MILES better than freddy (and sadako, but at least sadako has useful addons as well like ring drawing and iri tape)
Freddy's whole power is literally puddles that can be disabled at any time just by being awake, if they for some reason on (because his power is so weak u can spend the whole time in the dream world and nothing much will change)
Like I said, a lot of people think Trapper is the worst killer in the game. It's just your opinion that Freddy is worse. Trapper is ranked lowest on many of the killer tier lists. Here's a community vote on the tier of killers: https://dennisreep.nl/dbd/killers/. As seen, Trapper was voted the worst killer in the game. Otz, one of the longest Trapper mains, also thinks this is the case: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whmrILaplk8.
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@Gandor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3224777#Comment_3224777
I agree. Delete DH. But delete camping and tunneling. Fair deal. Both are unfair to play against and provide advantage to other side.
If not, then I am absolutely against YET ANOTHER killer buff
I'll take that change. In fact, there would probably be less need to tunnel and camp if it wasn't for Dead Hard because of how powerful it is in chase.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3224694#Comment_3224694
"No one plays Trapper and he's still the worst killer in the game"
Strange comment coming from someone complaining about DH use against Trickster.
I don't even play Trickster. He's just an example for how the new Dead Hard is stronger against killer powers. New Dead Hard is stronger against most killer powers. There's a long list of killers I can go on where new Dead Hard is stronger. Here are some more examples:
Huntress: old Dead Hard: survivor dodges hatchet w/e. You can throw another one shortly after. New Dead Hard: survivor gets a speed boost and makes it to another loop and Huntress has to catch up to them with her 110 ms.
Bubba: survivors are guaranteed to Dead Hard against Bubba's Chainsaw. There's nothing Bubba can do. Against old Dead Hard, you just keep chasing them with Chainsaw and they die
Pig: new Dead Hard: they get speed boost and run away. Old Dead Hard: you keep chasing them with your charge attack and get the hit
@not_requested49 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3224556#Comment_3224556
The point is you're sounding like an entitled killer main who can't stop from breaking a chase and constantly wants 4ks all the time and cries when you dont
Honestly, I bet that's what you say to every killer that asks for survivor nerfs. Doesn't matter what the killer says. They're a cry baby if they ask for survivor nerfs.
I have no idea how not breaking from chase has anything to do with this. Getting Dead Harded in an uncounterable way is something that happens to every killer. Here is an example of this https://clips.twitch.tv/TenaciousUglyMallardUncleNox-HrJ-TjhuvYDTJkRe. If you think it's fair that the survivor can Dead Hard to escape with little to no counter in a situation where they misplayed like in this example, please elaborate. Thank you.
@not_requested49 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3224694#Comment_3224694
Worst killer? My man have you seen freddy
Yes. Worse than Freddy. Trapper is considered the worst killer by many. He is at least bottom 3 if you don't think so.
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@CaulDrohn said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3224641#Comment_3224641
Just a remark:
Even though new DH might be better against Trickster, it's totally useless against Trapper Traps, Legion Frency and Deathslinger Shot now. So when considering DH potential against killer powers, it sure was a nerf.
No one plays Trapper and he's still the worst killer in the game after the Dead Hard change, so it doesn't matter. Against Legion Frenzy, it barely makes a difference. You're already injured if you can use Dead Hard. You're only avoiding the mending effect. The only exception is if Legion is in his last hit mode, but that's rare. It's a buff for Death Slinger but he also got nerfed massively, so it evens out. Other than that, new Dead Hard is better against most killer powers.
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@RonMan32 said:
DH can get removed the day NOED is removed.
I'll take that trade any day.
@katoptris said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3224586#Comment_3224586
They could have held that last knife then throw it.
True but the new Dead Hard is still stronger. The old Dead Hard was completely useless against Trickster. It's also better against Main Event where you can't pause your knives. Regardless, it's just an example. Another example would be Bubba. You basically can't use your Chainsaw against an injured survivor since it's a guaranteed Dead Hard.
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@Marik1987 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3224575#Comment_3224575
Thats exactly the situation I mentioned ;-).
Ok. You try to bait out Dead Hard, the survivor doesn't have it and drops the pallet on you. Congrats you just missed the hit when you could have lunged and got them?
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@Pulsar said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3224556#Comment_3224556
There are even more games where Survivors run it and don't escape.
DH is fine, for now. Good players get use out of it but it isn't uncounterable.
That was person implying that survivors have no chance without Dead Hard. That isn't the case.
@FilthyLegionMain said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3224556#Comment_3224556
They're giving an example that's ludicrous just so you can understand how we view your statement.
And I am telling you that survivors are already escaping without Dead Hard and removing it won't be the end of the world for survivors.
@Marik1987 said:
Previous Deadhard was broken and unoutplayable. Now, you can in most cases outplay it. The only issue is nearby a pallet: you press E and smashing Spacebar for dropping the pallet and there is nothing a killer can do.
Besides this one situation, which is frustrating indeed, its fine now, I guess.
@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3224556#Comment_3224556
And what is wrong with people who is running Dead Hard? It is good perk but it is not op anymore? Just because they worked against you, does not means it is op or busted?
New DH is very baitable, if you can't bait it out then it is on you. I don't know what i have to say you but you just need to get good.
There are situations where you can outplay it and can't. I already provided an example. Say you are a chasing a survivor to a pallet and it's a close chase where you must lunge or they will reach the pallet, there are only 3 possible outcomes (let's assume you don't know whether the survivor has Dead Hard or not):
- you try to outplay/bait Dead Hard but the survivor doesn't have it or use, so they just drop the pallet and you miss the hit
- you lunge and don't try to outplay Dead Hard. They Dead Hard and you get punished
- you manage to bait out Dead Hard and get the hit
You see how it's just completely RNG on whether or not you manage to outplay Dead Hard and there's only a 33% chance for the killer to outplay it? Though, this 33% stat is if you look at it purely from an rng perspective. The reality is that it's lower than this since the killer is forced to lunge early or they will be too late to get the hit before the pallet stun. The forced early lunge gives survivors a chance to react to it and turn it into a lose-lose situation. You lunge? They Dead Hard. You don't lunge? They drop the pallet.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
BHVR, please just start all survivors on hook. These people won't be happy until this happen. Just do it, 4% chance is good enough to escape. If they can't do this, that's on them.
There are a lot of games where survivors don't run Dead Hard and still escape. I don't see what your point is.
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BHVR needs to give a bonus that helps the killer win for not tunnelling. Tunnelling is simply the most effective strategy and it's necessary to beat high mmr survivors.
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@GolbezGarlandGabrant said:
Win or lose I hardly say gg unless killer says it first just out of respect. I'm just not crazy about the term.
I said gg after every game but they didn't say gg. For Clown, it was the opposite. The moment the game ends with me losing, all survivors say gg.
@versacefeng said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3220344#Comment_3220344
Or they just said gg and moved on.
Why only when they win though?
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@Crowman said:
tbf, unless they were playing with their friends. There's little reason to stay in the end game screen and not just requeue when solo.
But even when there are 2-3 players left, they don't say gg.
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@Gandor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3216016#Comment_3216016
It's called eruption and it disables all survivors working on all kicked gens for 25 seconds AND it also regresses those gens just by downing any survivor. So killer's version of the perk is actually useful in comparison to blast mine (even if it has harder, but more probable trigger condition). It's so useful, that it's considered one of the meta perks.
But if they made same kind of perk against survivor (so 5s stun+blind and no warning to killer - same as blast mine), I am pretty sure the usage would be abysmally low (less then 1%). But sure. I am all for killer's blast mine. But with your numbers and no buff to them.
As for your quote to me. What can't you understand? Perk "No way out" has same counterplay as blast mine. Just avoid being hooked is the same as just avoid kicking gen that got trapped by specific person. None of those 2 are really possible, because game is designed in a way that these things are not possible. What is so hard to understand about it?
You can still move during Eruption and go unhook the survivor that just got downed. There is also a difference with stunning survivor(s) and the killer. When you stun the killer, you are stunning the entire team. When you stun 1 survivor, the other survivors can still do things. SWFs can avoid Eruption by telling each other when they are about to go down. You can also potentially determine which gen is Erupted based on whether it is regressing and go work on another gen. It isn't the same.
"As for your quote to me. What can't you understand? Perk "No way out" has same counter play as blast mine. Just avoid being hooked is the same as just avoid kicking gen that got trapped by specific person. None of those 2 are really possible, because game is designed in a way that these things are not possible. What is so hard to understand about it?"
The effectiveness of No Way Out is reduced when less survivors are hooked. Being able to hook a survivor is likely but being able to hook all 4 isn't a guarantee. It has counter play in the form of reducing its effectiveness. The other counter play is when the perk activates. It's not like when No Way Out activates, survivors are completely helpless. They can still evade the killer by hiding and looping. Blast Mine is different. When activates, there is nothing you can do but wait out the stun.
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I bet survivors wouldn't like it if they gave killer the Blast Mine perk. New perk: whenever a killer kicks a generator, that generator is booby trapped for 60 seconds. Whenever a survivor repairs a trapped generator, they are blinded and stunned for 5 seconds. Imagine the survivor salt when I run Blast Mine on killer and get free downs because they literally can't move.
@kizuati said:
dont kick the gen or equip ruin
As mentioned in my original post, not kicking gens is terrible counter play design since it removes a core mechanic from the game. Ruin can get cleansed early into the game then you have no counter play for Blast Mine again.
@Gandor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3213511#Comment_3213511
If you are able to evade killer so, that killer gets 0 hooks in a game that is made specifically so, that killer will eventually catch the survivor. Then you are able to kick specifically those gens, that are not being worked on by person with blast mine.
And I would argue killer's chance to avoid it is better
I have no idea what you are talking about.
@Rokku_Rorru said:
If you don't like blast mine there is plenty of ways to damage gens without kicking:
-Pain Resonance
-Hex: Ruin
-Jolt
-Merciless Storm (if skill check is failed)
There is also a tell you can see a little smoke coming off the gen if the mine is on it I'm sure too.
Forcing the killer to run perks to counter a specific thing has always been poor design. Whenever this was the case, it was patched out in the past, e.g. Iron Grasp was necessary to counter Sabo when Sabo permanently removed hooks then Sabo got nerfed. Enduring and Brutal Strength used to be necessary on every killer in the beta before they made them base kit.
Even when running these perks, it still removes the core mechanic of kicking gens. I think being able to remove any core mechanic from the game with a perk is poor design.
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@Gandor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3211604#Comment_3211604
Oh but it has same "counterplay" as No way out. Just don't kick gens that are worked on by person with blast mine.
And yes. The perk is meaned to be annoying. Because that's all it is. An annoying perk that makes almost 0 difference otherwise. It's sole purpose is to be annoying and that's it.
How is not kicking gens the same counter play as No Way Out?
@hatchetChugger said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3211604#Comment_3211604
Blast mine has counterplay, just pressure gens better and don't let survivors get any progress :p
Unless you're playing Nurse or Blight, that's fairly unlikely.
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I understand why people don't think Blast Mine is annoying as I do now. It's because most killers don't care about kicking gens much, so they aren't affected much by it, but if you are playing a killer that cares a lot about defending and kicking gens, it's extremely annoying. If one person runs Blast Mine, you can get Blast Mined 4-5 times in a single match. Getting hit by it once is fine but getting hit that many times is just obnoxious.
@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3210511#Comment_3210511
well maybe now you understand what is strong about the perk. you have assume every generator could have blast mine, that's part of the reason why i dislike re nemesis update as killer because I have now worry about every generator that i kick having blast mine. survivor generally hold-w in general direction when they're running away from generators, the blind is not slowing the killer down.
removing the stun killers purpose of the perk. You would give another powerful to compensate the loss of the stun.
Examples:
-Kicking a generator that activates blast mine will increase the max generator progression by 10%(t3).
-Killer is suffers from incapacitated and hindered status(15%) for 15 seconds. Incapaciated prevents killer from activating the ability.
personally, i rather suffer the stun over auto-complete gens for the survivor or have highly detrimental status effects that hamper my ability to kill.
Removing the stun does not defeat the purpose of the perk. Say Blast Mine blinded the killer for 1 hour, it would be the best perk in the game. It's just a matter of adjusting the blind duration to balance it.
@Kaapskaaps said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3210579#Comment_3210579
Not every perks needs to have counter play. Especially ones that are basically part of a fun, memey build like blast mine.
No way out has no counter play and it's a very strong perk that wastes a lot of survivor time and you don't see survivors crying about giving it counter play so stop moaning. Blast mine is basically a meme perk, especially after the unnecessary nerf. If you're actually scared to get stunned so much don't kick gens or go play some other game.
Not every perk needs counter play but I think it does in this instance. Getting hit by Blast Mine multiple times with no counter play is just obnoxious.
No Way Out has counter play. If survivors loop the killer better, the perk doesn't get as many stacks, so it's far less effective. Also, survivors can still do other things during the block timer like hide and heal or continue looping the killer. Blast Mine is not like this at all. You can't do anything to avoid Blast Mine and if you get hit by it, you literally can't do anything since you are stunned and blinded.
@Gandor said:
I have no idea why killers are afraid of stuns. Like it doesn't really take much time. You can be actually happy, because survivor did not use the perk slot to have e.g. built to last with strong medkit. Or reinsurance to waste a lot of your time camping. Or OTR to prevent you from tunneling. Hell if it's such a memer, it's high possibility he took the perk instead of deadhard which will probably rob you of more time then 1 measly stun outside of chase.
It's not the stun on its own that's annoying. It's getting stunned with no counter play that's annoying. For example, Head On is fine since I can at least bait the survivors out to hit them and if I spot them entering the locker, I can down them. I would rather survivors run strong perks than perks to annoy the killer with no counter play.
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Not once in this thread did I said Blast Mine should be nerfed because it was too strong. I said it should be changed because it is completely obnoxious and has no counter play. The perk can be buffed in some other way to offset the nerf, e.g. longer duration. To the people saying that it is only used for the stun killer challenge and won't be used after the change, that's false. It can still be used for the blind killer challenge.
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@ByeByeQ said:
Blast Mine is already a trash perk for the most part. It could be used to counter Pop Goes The Weasel and finish a gen in the killer's face while they're stunned, but most of the time it's just a small waste of the killer's time, prevents a little gen regression and a "Haha, I stunned the killer" moment.
For me I know all the tiles and maps pretty well already. If I got blinded while kicking a gen I would still be able to move in the direction I want to go while blinded without getting stuck very often. I don't even think it would be much more than a minor inconvenience even for players with less experience.
Without the stun the killer archive challenges no one would run this perk so if you remove the stun it won't get ran at all.
I know it might be a weak perk but getting stunned for 4.9 seconds with absolutely no counter play is completely obnoxious. I do think that it should be reworked in someway to allow for counter play.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3210463#Comment_3210463
you said problem yourself:
This adds counter play to Blast Mine since it allows the killer to prepare for Blast Mine by memorizing where to go beforehand so they can still move
You can memorize where survivor is going so blind does nothing. It kills the perk. The perk is designed to waste your time as killer and punish you for kicking generators and the stun integral part of doing that.
I agree that the perk obnoxious to play against as killer. I have played against that. Its not fun to play against but its not overpowered. Mostly just annoying. punishes you for using gen-kicking perks.
"you said problem yourself:"
You still don't know which gen will be Blast Mined, so you have to memorize where to go for every single gen you kick. Also, memorizing where to go doesn't completely counter blind as you still don't see where you are going and can be incorrect about the path you are taking. You could just be walking right into a wall. You don't know. This would be most problematic in areas with many walls or doors.
"You can memorize where survivor is going so blind does nothing. "
A survivor blinds you with a flash light then starts moving. You cannot memorize something that has not occurred yet. You may predict where they are going if there is only 1 path but most of the time, the survivor can take several paths. If blind was truly useless, no survivor would ever use a flash light and every survivor using one at a pallet would get hit.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
blast mine already got nerfed with their change. I said its strong perk but there are better perks for survivor, so there is no reason to use it. Removing the stun defeats the purpose of the perk. the perk is intended to punish the killer for kicking gens which wastes killer's time.
Its obnoxious perk to go against if 4 people are using it. you get spammed by stuns if your using gen-kicking perks as killer.
The killer still gets blinded from the Blast Mine, which wastes their time. As I said, if the killer doesn't memorize where to go, they basically have to stand still until it expires. It's like getting Flashlight blinded at a pallet. The killer usually doesn't know where to go until the blind is over unless the survivor is injured.